From benita@umich.edu Sun Jul 2 13:42:36 1995 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 15:46:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Benita Sibia Jackson To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: married names What are some ways (subversive or not) people (you, someone you know, someone you've read about, a culture) have dealt with the issue of taking on a partner's name in the event of marriage or a long-term relationship? What are some factors to consider in such a situation (e.g., un/importance of having the same family name; continuity of identity in professional life; establishing own credit-history after divorce; bulkiness of hyphenation for children) ? I'm interested in any references and personal anecdotes (including lesbigay relationships, not only heterosexual marriage). Thanks! Please respond privately: benita@umich.edu Benita Jackson University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Joint Doctoral Program, Psychology and Women's Studies From RCRAPO@wpo.hass.usu.edu Sun Jul 2 14:00:27 1995 Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 14:02:50 -0700 From: Richley Crapo To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re.: Married Names A couple I know adopted a new family name of their mutual choosing to use following their marriage. Both had to make various appropriate changes on such things as their drivers' licenses. She (of course) was accommodated by the driver's license department routinely, since she had just married. He (next in line) was told that they couldn't change his name on his license--until he pointed out that they had just done so for her! From smithli@mail.auburn.edu Thu Jul 13 15:16:02 1995 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:19:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Lisa J Smith To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: New Journal: Red Orange, Submissions/Subscriptions I apologize for the length, but thought this would be of interest. Jennifer Cotter, one of the associate editors, recently published an excellent review of Judith Bulter's _Bodies That Matter_ (NY: Routledge, 1993) in _College Literature_ 21:226-31 (Oct.1994). -ljs ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:57:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert C Jack To: Lisa J Smith Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 00:43:38 -0400 From: Robert Cymbala Subject: SUBSCRIPTIONS: Red Orange -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * RED ORANGE ...A MARXIST TRIQUARTERLY OF THEORY, POLITICS, AND THE EVERYDAY ------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Journal Begins Publication in August of 1995! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOOK WHAT'S AHEAD: #1 -August 1995 Inaugural Issue: Introduction to Red Orange, Part I #2 -December 1995 Open Focus: Introduction to Red Orange, Part II #3 -April 1996 After Postmodernism: Liberalism in Crisis #4 -August 1996 Cynicism, Alienation, and Fin-de-Siecle Capitalism #5 -December 1996 The Rise of the Right in the U.S. and Beyond -- Is the New World Order Headed Towards Fascism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism, or Barbarism? #6 -April 1997 Moving Image Cultures and Capitalism Today #7 -August 1997 Computer Technologies and Capitalism Today #8 -December 1997 Modalities and Trajectories of Exploitation in Fin- de-Siecle Capitalism #9 -April 1998 Marxism, Socialism, Communism, and the 21st Century -- New Directions and Future Prospects for International Revolutionary Struggle CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS ! #1, August 1995 >>> Inaugural Issue: Introduction to RED ORANGE, Part I >>> Submissions Deadline: July 1, 1995 #2, December 1995 >>> Open Focus: Introduction to RED ORANGE, Part II >>> Submissions Deadline: November 1, 1995 #3, April 1996 >>> After Postmodernism: Liberalism in Crisis >>> Submissions Deadline: March 1, 1996 #4, August 1996 >>> Cynicism, Alienation, and Fin-de-Siecle Capitalism >>> Submissions Deadline: July 1, 1996 #5, December 1996 >>> The Rise of the Right in the U.S. and Beyond -- Is the New World Order Headed Towards Fascism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism, or Barbarism? >>> Submissions Deadline: November 1, 1996 #6, April 1997 >>> Moving Image Cultures and Capitalism Today >>> Submissions Deadline: March 1, 1997 #7, August 1997 >>> Computer Technologies and Capitalism Today >>> Submissions Deadline: July 1, 1997 #8, December 1997 >>> Modalities & Trajectories of Exploitation in Fin- de-Siecle Capitalism >>> Submissions Deadline: November 1, 1997 #9, April 1998 >>> Marxism, Socialism, Communism, and the 21st Century - - New Directions and Future Prospects for International Revolutionary Struggle >>> Submissions Deadline: March 1, 1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUBSCRIBE NOW (Select One of the Options Below): Charter Subscriber: US$ 20.00 (for 1 year; includes donation) 1 Year, 3 Issues: Regular: US$ 15.00 2 Years, 6 Issues: Regular: US$ 27.50 Institutional: US$ 55.00 3 Years, 9 Issues: Regular: US$ 35.00 * TO SUBSCRIBE: send a check with your NAME, ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER (and/or FAX NUMBER and/or E-MAIL ADDRESS) to RED ORANGE at the address listed below. 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BOX 1055 TEMPE, AZ 85280-1055, USA Phone:(602) 804-1151 Electronic address: rcymbala@mailbox.syr.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- STATEMENT OF PURPOSE: RED ORANGE: A MARXIST TRIQUARTERLY of THEORY, POLITICS, and the EVERYDAY RED ORANGE is a Revolutionary Marxist journal dedicated to the development and dissemination of knowledges necessary for the renewal of the struggle to bring about the socialist transformation of capitalism into communism. All of the texts published in this journal relate directly to this overriding goal: how to construct a society founded upon meeting the needs of all people such that "the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." As capitalism is today more than ever a global social system, the interests of RED ORANGE are likewise global and this journal therefore welcomes contributions which deal with issues pertinent not only to North America and Western Europe but also to the Middle East, Africa, Central and South America, Asia, Central and Eastern Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Oceania. RED ORANGE will confront the global connections of capital and contribute towards the development of a new international movement of proletarian revolution. RED ORANGE is a journal which is concerned with capitalist economics, politics, society, and culture today, in the 1990s, at the current moment of the fin-de-siecle. At the same time, because it is a journal of Revolutionary Marxist theory, critique, pedagogy, consciousness raising, and ideological counterpropaganda, RED ORANGE is ruthlessly critical of not only all forms of anti-Marxist liberal reformism but also all "neo-marxisms" and "post-marxisms" as well. RED ORANGE argues for the necessary theoretical and political priority now as much as ever before, in the 1990s, at this historic moment of the fin-de- siecle, of the following categories: class, class conflict and struggle, class consciousness, history, materiality, mode of production, forces of production, relations of production, political economy, labor, proletariat, revolution, socialism, communism, dialectics, ideology, theory, and critique. "Red," the base, signifies our commitment to socialism, communism, and revolution, and more specifically to proletarian revolution, to scientific socialism, and to the Classic, Orthodox, Revolutionary Marxist critique of capitalism and theory of communism. "Orange," a mix of red and yellow, signifies the legacy of partial gains and significant defeats in the first long wave of modern socialist struggle: the legacy of social democracy, welfare-state liberalism, Stalinism, Maoism, and "Third World" "socialist nationalisms." It also signifies the two principal sites of immediate struggle for Revolutionary Marxist work of theory, critique, pedagogy, consciousness raising, and ideological counterpropaganda today. First is the struggle against liberal (including "neo-" and "post-" liberal) caution, retreat, surrender, fragmentation, despair, fear, compromise, concession, cynicism, and opportunism in accepting reform within capitalism as the ultimate limit of conceivable, possible, and even desirable social change. Second is the struggle against liberal refusal to fight resurgent movements toward fascism and barbarism -- lead by the now no longer new "Right" -- all the way to the end: to the point where the material basis for the existence of these movements has been destroyed in the revolutionary socialist triumph of the global proletariat over global capital. In addition, "Red Orange" alludes to the institutional pre-history of this journal, to the work and struggle conducted over the last decade by Revolutionary Marxists engaged at Syracuse University. RED ORANGE draws and builds upon the productive achievements of this Syracuse history. And finally, "Red Orange" alludes to the present geographical location of this journal in the Arizona Valley of the Sun with its "red orange" climate and topography. The Phoenix area, and beyond Phoenix, the whole state of Arizona, is one of the most rapidly growing regions in the United States today and a potentially central location in this new age of unfettered transnational capitalism. This region is representative of all of those areas in the world today which maintain enormous and as of yet untapped potential to contribute to the 21st century renewal of revolutionary socialist struggle. It is in areas like this one, historically extremely conservative and yet also at present a center of extremely rapid growth, that the contradictions of contemporary capitalism are becoming the most densely concentrated and the most acutely manifest. RED ORANGE is committed to making sure that Marxism, Socialism, and Communism will continually rise again, like the Phoenix for which the urban center of this region is named, from the ashes of every temporary defeat, until the final victory has been achieved. RED ORANGE: A Marxist Triquarterly of Theory, Politics, and the Everyday Chief Editor: Bob Nowlan Managing Editor: Rob Cymbala Associate Editors: Sam Barry, Jennifer Cotter, Jerry Leonard, Grant Pheloung, Mark Wood, and Robert Young P.O. Box 1055, Tempe, AZ 85280-1055, USA (602) 804-1151 rcymbala@mailbox.syr.edu From Bbosborn@aol.com Mon Jul 17 07:44:23 1995 From: Bbosborn@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:47:51 -0400 To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: married names My husband and I struggled with this one. We got married about two years ago and about 6 months into the marriage we decided to take the same middle name. So I am now Barbara Bliss Osborn and he is Johnie Bliss Drimmer. It felt important to us to identify ourselves as a family and yet he didn't want my name and I didn't want his. I'm not really very good at espousing on-line but if you want to give me a call you can find me at 213 935 8115. From falconer@cwis.unomaha.edu Mon Jul 17 09:21:57 1995 Subject: Re: married names To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 10:25:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Karen Falconer In-Reply-To: <950717094110_116505052@aol.com> from "Bbosborn@aol.com" at Jul 17, 95 09:47:51 am I am new to this list, so please forgive if I have blundered into the middle of something. I wish to comment on "married names". I was married about six weeks ago. My husband and I settled on Falconer-Al-Hindi for me, and Al-Hindi for him (no change in his name). We (like the couple with the same middle name) wanted a family identification, so I wasn't happy with just keeping my own name. I also wasn't happy to just take my husband's as this is inconsistent with my feminism and his Arab heritage (Arab women do not change their names when they marry). I could use "Falconer Al-Hindi" (Falconer is my "maiden" name), but I'm afraid people would assume they could drop Falconer, which I'd prefer they not. So, I've got two hyphens. Of course, it will take time for people to get used to this name change, and I'm prepared to answer to just about any name! From relihco@mail.auburn.edu Mon Jul 17 09:58:46 1995 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 11:02:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Constance Relihan To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: married names Why must a family identification come from a name? Doesn't it really come from a body of shared experiences? My husband and I have been married for ten years, neither one of us changed our names when we were married, and none of the people who matter to us would have any difficulty identifying us, and our daughter, as a family.--Constance Relihan From B.Skeggs@lancaster.ac.uk Tue Jul 18 16:32:53 1995 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 23:34:03 +0100 (BST) From: Dr B E Skeggs Subject: Re: married names To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu In-Reply-To: <950717094110_116505052@aol.com> Is it me...am I on a different planet (if not a differnt country) but is marriage now legitimate??? From THAL@macc.wisc.edu Tue Jul 18 16:41:54 1995 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 17:45 CDT From: "Jan Levine Thal / JHR / 262-4867" Subject: married names To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu I liked the question about whether marriage is legitimate. I married a nice guy in the 70s, added his name to mine (though not vice versa), stayed married a long time, had a kid, got divorced, and continue to use his name because I'd written under it for a long time and it made my otherwise mundane name more memorable. I admire the women who took their grandmothers' first names or their favor floweres or whatever but I wasn't anyone new and it felt like I would be forcing myself into a whole new identity I didn't yet have. My birth name was Janet Ruth Levine My married name became Jan Levine Thal someday when I settle down to writing romance novels for the feminist left I'll take my first two names, move the T and become Jane Truth. But that issue of identity persists. Jan Levine Thal From poss@utdallas.edu Tue Jul 18 21:00:38 1995 From: poss@utdallas.edu Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 22:04:05 -0500 (CDT) To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: married names In-Reply-To: <25071817452439@vms2.macc.wisc.edu> Legitimate or expedient? I married because my S.O. was in Canada, I was in the U.S. and could not reside, much less work, in the country "legitimately" unless married. (I was at a transition point in my career, so I was more flexible in relocating.) I kept my family name (Koester) until sometime after our daughter was born, because I had my professional licence (architect) and degrees in that name. Our daughter has his last name (Poss), altho the hospital tried to give her mine at birth, not knowing that we had different names. When she started school, I stopped correcting people on my name because we had moved to conservative Houston at that point and it was just too much hassle. (Should I feel guilty?) So now I sign my name Melinda Koester Poss, (I just changed it this year with Social Security - after 14 years the marriage looks like it might take) When I want to be non-gendered I sign MK Poss. As for other family members: My stepdaughter (28) just married and after much discussion, finally decided to go with his name (Green) from the start, since she is also transitioning by going back to grad school. My sister, an MD, has successfully kept our family name, gave that as her two girls' middle names, and gave them their father's last name, while my sister-in-law, a highly conscious human being, gladly gave up her family name, which she claims to have never liked, for ours when it came time to have children. I like the idea of creating your own name and identity upon union (of whatever sort). That would really screw up the old paternal order. I remember a woman in Austin in the mid-70's, who ran for a local political office, who did just that. Both she and her husband adopted a new name - Birdsong. I would change my immediate family's name to Paz - same pronunciation in Spanish, and nice meaning. But my supposedly radical husband is very tradition-bound on that one. Melinda (or better yet MK Paz) From susanp@osprey.csrv.uidaho.edu Tue Jul 18 21:43:25 1995 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 20:25:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Palmer Susan Subject: Re: married names To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu In-Reply-To: To add more to this discussion...although I'm part of a heterosexual relationship, my partner and I have chosen to never marry. Although our reasoning is multi-faceted, it is predominantly the same reason we would not participate in a "whites only" or "men only" institution. Marriage, among other things, is a "hetero only" institution (at least in the eyes of the state). While the inconvenience is ever-present, our experience by no means approximates how delegitimized same-sex relations are on a societal level. However, we are reminded nearly daily of others' expectation of marriage in every formal and informal encounter as the only "legitimate" relationship in contemporary society. The effects, some of you already know all too well, include lack of access to a partner's health care and social security, and even big ticket items like tuition remission for the other partner's offspring. What's in a name? It's the social relationships that count. We don't even have names or labels for the convoluted variety of relationships many of us participate in. My sister, who also remains unmarried for similar reasons, yet partnered, has three offspring, all who bear her (and my...and our patrilineal) last name. She figures that the antithesis comes after the thesis, before the synthesis. Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time remains a promising utopian vision for me on the issue of names, etc. Best, Auntie Nuke From falconer@cwis.unomaha.edu Wed Jul 19 08:25:20 1995 Subject: database programs To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:29:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Karen Falconer Can anyone recommend a system and/or program for keeping track of articles, books, bookchapters, and so on? I often find that I need to access all of the articles I have copies of on a particular topic, but cannot recall all of them. I'd like to have my own computerized database with which I can call up items using keywords. Perhaps others would find any suggestions helpful, too. I imagine I am not the only one with this problem. Many Thanks, Karen Falconer Al-Hindi From CYSU@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA Wed Jul 19 08:43:03 1995 by VAXF.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #8140) 19 Jul 1995 08:37:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 10:44:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Rebecca Subject: Re: database programs In-reply-to: In reply to your message of Wed, 19 Jul 1995 10:29:19 EDT To: matfem@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Hi Karen (and everyone) Are you on a Mac, DOS or Windows system? My MAC friends all swear by ClarisWorks' database system, with an automatic link to MS Word. I have found myself using the merge functions in WordPerfect 6.1WIN. For such a simple action, you want your program to be simple. Try to avoid programs like Dbase which can be pretty heavy-handed. Ask you local software store for a flat-file database for text- only (ie., limited or no numbers or mathematical functions) with an automatic link to whatever wordprocessing program you use. (damn, the postmodernist were right, it is all in the language :-) ) Hope this helps, Rebecca Sullivan (Montreal) cysu@musica.mcgill.ca From cstarr@orion.oac.uci.edu Wed Jul 19 19:47:06 1995 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 18:29:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Little Miss Orbit To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: database programs On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Karen Falconer wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a system and/or program > for keeping track of articles, books, bookchapters, and > so on? I often find that I need to access all of the > articles I have copies of on a particular topic, but > cannot recall all of them. I'd like to have my own > computerized database with which I can call up items > using keywords. Two commercial programs which are available for both Mac and Dos are EndNote (my personal favorite) and BiblioFile. Both are bibliography programs that let you enter your references with abstracts and keywords, and with as many notes as you want, sort them by 'libraries' whatever, link them to your word-processed document to produce the appropriate bibliography for whatever you're working on, and find things by keywords. Very convenient. Chelsea Starr cstarr@uci.edu From fac62@mhc.mtholyoke.edu Wed Jul 19 19:51:30 1995 From: fac62@mhc.mtholyoke.edu Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: database programs To: Karen Falconer I have used PAPYRUS, which is excellent. I don't have the information here about how to get hold of it, however. One has to pay a fee for the right of using it, but it's not huge. They permit local copying, for example between members of a department. Rachel Joffe Falmagne Psychology Department Clark University On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Karen Falconer wrote: > Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 09:29:19 -0500 (CDT) > From: Karen Falconer > To: MATERIALIST FEMINIST > Subject: database programs > > > Can anyone recommend a system and/or program > for keeping track of articles, books, bookchapters, and > so on? I often find that I need to access all of the > articles I have copies of on a particular topic, but > cannot recall all of them. I'd like to have my own > computerized database with which I can call up items > using keywords. > > Perhaps others would find any suggestions > helpful, too. I imagine I am not the only one with this > problem. > > Many Thanks, > > Karen Falconer Al-Hindi > From jae2@mailer.york.ac.uk Thu Jul 20 05:14:10 1995 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:20:02 +0100 (BST) From: Judy Evans To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: database programs In-Reply-To: On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Little Miss Orbit wrote: > On Wed, 19 Jul 1995, Karen Falconer wrote: > > > > > Can anyone recommend a system and/or program > > for keeping track of articles, books, bookchapters, and > > so on? I often find that I need to access all of the > > articles I have copies of on a particular topic, but > > cannot recall all of them. I'd like to have my own > > computerized database with which I can call up items > > using keywords. > > Two commercial programs which are available for both Mac and Dos are > EndNote (my personal favorite) and BiblioFile. Both are bibliography > programs that let you enter your references with abstracts and keywords, > and with as many notes as you want, sort them by 'libraries' whatever, > link them to your word-processed document to produce the appropriate > bibliography for whatever you're working on, and find things by keywords. > Very convenient. > > Chelsea Starr > cstarr@uci.edu > --------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk --------------------------------------------------------------- From jae2@mailer.york.ac.uk Thu Jul 20 05:16:56 1995 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:22:11 +0100 (BST) From: Judy Evans To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: database programs In-Reply-To: Hello matfem, Managed to send a reply by mistake... . (The _heat_.) Real reply: are Endnote and Bibliofile Windows programs? --------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk --------------------------------------------------------------- From hejo@hdc.hha.dk Thu Jul 20 06:08:21 1995 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:46:08 +0200 From: hejo@hdc.hha.dk (Heidbra Jonsdottir, HDC) To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: married names In Iceland, where I come from, the surnames are based on the names of the father. My name is Heidbra Jonsdottir, because my fathers name is Jon, and I am his daughter (-dottir). My husbands name is Einar B. Baldursson, his is the son of Baldur. My daughter is Einarsdottir and my son is Einarsson. When we icelandics marry we don't change our names. I mean, if I were to be named Baldursson, then it would presume, that my mother had had something to do with a Baldur. No. And as a consequence: In the telephone-book in Iceland the names are placed in the order of first names. I would be situated under H for Heidbra and my husband under E for Einar. Sometimes it confuses forreigners who come to the country, but they get used to it. :) And they learn to use our first names. In icelandic I say: My name is Heidbra, and I am Jonsdottir. I identify myself by my first name. I would never say: My name is Jonsdottir. Why am I not Helgudottir (after my mother Helga)? Well, Iceland is as patriarcal a country as any western country ;-) But actually I don't think, that there is any law preventing it. It is convention. In the old Sagas (icelandic prose written 700-800 years ago) there are a few persons named after their mother. Actually I think this is the way all names were constructed in the scandinavian countries centuries back. Hence all the scandinavian names ending with -sen (for son). In Denmark (where I live now) there was a convention of the children (esp of farmers) being named ie Jensen if their father was named Jens. That convention was abandoned by law sometimes mid-1800. I don't know when (or whether) the Danes ever used the -daughter-convention. Cheers, Heidbra. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heidbra Jonsdottir, Cand Scient Oecon Internet: HEJO@HDC.HHA.DK Software Consultant at the Computercenter Aarhus School of Business, Denmark. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hejo@hdc.hha.dk Thu Jul 27 07:12:24 1995 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:14:36 +0200 From: hejo@hdc.hha.dk (Heidbra Jonsdottir, HDC) To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Circle of Peace - Bosnia To MATFEM, (and I send it to more lists) I forward to you a letter from Circle of Peace - Bosnia. I've heard of a similar idea here in Denmark. I've read a 'letter to the editor' sugesting the queen of Denmark, the sub-director of the National- Bank (female), and a few other named danish women of money and power to finance and/or go themselves on a journey like this. (When I say idea, I mean idea. I don't know of anyone, who is organizing anything of the sort) This is just an idea you can take forward. Heidbra, Denmark. HEJO@HDC.HHA.DK - --- begin forwarded text Date: 24 Jul 95 01:11:38 EDT From: Sandy McCormack <72254.3154@compuserve.com> Subject: Circle of Peace-Bosnia Dear Women of the World, We have an idea about helping the situation in Bosnia. We propose that the United Nations send 100,000 - 200,000 women volunteers from throughout the world and/or the U.S., who are committed to non-violence, to go to Bosnia to make a circle for peace. This demonstration would be non-partisan,non-political and non-denominational. Its sole purpose is to express our love & compassion to all involved in the conflict. We feel that our only hope in situations like Bosnia is to reach to one another as human beings. *This circle of love would make no judgments,and give no sermons or speeches.* If you are willing to volunteer, please send your name, address and phone # to the United Nations at UN Plaza, New York, New York 10017 and state, "I want to volunteer for the circle of peace in Bosnia." This idea belongs to no one, so feel free to use it as your own and to share it. If you do not want to do this through the UN, then organize a circle for peace through a group you feel would honor this purpose. Love from your friends and fellow travelers. - --- end forwarded text From h_grehan@central.murdoch.edu.au Sun Jul 30 20:20:07 1995 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:23:25 +0800 To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu From: h_grehan@central.murdoch.edu.au (Helena ) Subject: discourse non discourse Hi everyone, I'm having a few problems with discourse theory. I am writing a Phd on Aboriginal women performers - from a feminist perspective and am adopting a materialist feminist framework. I believe however, that the non- discursive or extra discursive needs to be considered - If I am looking one culture from the vantage point of my white middle class position (etc etc) I need to acknowledge that there are cultural specificities, cosmologies, dreamings and unconscious desires that cannot be reduced to mere discourse .. I feel that to do that - to bring them into discourse would be a eurocentric and perhaps even a racist? act (in the sense that they are being censored ) I suppose what I'm really asking is how to say these things are important and exist without reducing them to discourse and how to theoretically argue for the non discursive space and the necessity of its existence. I have used Rosemary Hennessy's book (which I love) and understand (I think) her argument for using discourse as ideology (the Althusserian model) to bridge the gap - but feel I need to have this extended) If anyone has any good suggestions - ideas or help I'd be delighted to hear them thanks helenaxxxxxxxx From fac62@mhc.mtholyoke.edu Mon Jul 31 07:38:38 1995 From: fac62@mhc.mtholyoke.edu Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: discourse non discourse To: Helena I agree that integrating the two is what is most needed at the moment. A few that I have found useful in that they either clarify the central issues very effectively, or actually do some integration, are: Michele Barrett, "Words and things: Materialism and method in contemporaty feminist analysis". In Michele Barrett and Anne Phillips, Destabilizing theory, Stanford 1992. Michele Barrett, The politics of truth from Marx to Foucault.(Stanford) Dorothy Smith, Texts, facts and femininity: Exploring the relations of ruling. Routledge, 1993 Nancy Fraser, "The uses and abuses of French discourse theories for feminist politics. In Nancy Fraser and Sandra Barkty, Revaluinf French feminism: Critical essays on difference, agency and ulture. Indiana, 1992. Bell Hooks: Race, gender and cultural politics. South End Press. Chandra Mohanty, "Under Western eyes: Feminist scholarship and colonial discourses" and "Cartographies of struggle: Third world women and the politics of feminism" Both in Chandra Mohanty, Ann Russo and Lourdes Torres, Third world women and the politics of femininism, Indiana 1991. Of course, you know Diane Bell's Daughters of the dreaming, but she also has, with P. Caplan and W.J. Karim, a recent collection, Gendered fields: Women, men and ethnography, (Routledge) that has some chapters that might be of interest to you. Good luck! Rachel Joffe Falmagne Department of Psychology Clark University Worcester, MA 01610 e-mail rfalmagne@vax.clarku.edu On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Helena wrote: > Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:23:25 +0800 > From: Helena > To: MATERIALIST FEMINIST > Subject: discourse non discourse > > Hi everyone, > > I'm having a few problems with discourse theory. I am writing a Phd on > Aboriginal women performers - from a feminist perspective and am adopting a > materialist feminist framework. I believe however, that the non- discursive > or extra discursive needs to be considered - If I am looking one culture > from the vantage point of my white middle class position (etc etc) I need to > acknowledge that there are cultural specificities, cosmologies, dreamings > and unconscious desires that cannot be reduced to mere discourse .. I feel > that to do that - to bring them into discourse would be a eurocentric and > perhaps even a racist? act (in the sense that they are being censored ) I > suppose what I'm really asking is how to say these things are important and > exist without reducing them to discourse and how to theoretically argue for > the non discursive space and the necessity of its existence. > > I have used Rosemary Hennessy's book (which I love) and understand (I > think) her argument for using discourse as ideology (the Althusserian model) > to bridge the gap - but feel I need to have this extended) > > > > If anyone has any good suggestions - ideas or help I'd be delighted to hear them > > thanks > helenaxxxxxxxx > > From rch3d@darwin.clas.virginia.edu Mon Jul 31 11:51:00 1995 From: Rebecca Charlotte Hyman Subject: Re: discourse non discourse To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Helena -- It sounds to me like you have several theoretical issues intersecting with one another in your approach (which is what makes it interesting) but the problem lies in the fact that they have different foundations. If you want to talk about "discourse" as defined by Foucault, there is no "extra-discursive" because his theory of power doesn't allow for spaces outside discourse, just as there is no "outside" ideology in an Althussertian paradigm. (I think Foucault's power is awfully close to Althusser's ideology, anyway, with his work countering the base-superstructure model and the notion of class as the sole determinent.) So if you talk about discursive structures, you're not talking about individuals, and their "dreamings" because Foucault's structure is predicated on Marxist rather than psychoanalytic paradigms, which DO theorize the individual. One theorist who tries to reconcile Marxism and psychoanalysis is Slavoj Zizek, who concentrates on the Hegelian dialectic in Marx and Lacan. His works are "The Sublime Object of Ideology," "For They Know Not What They Do" and others. I appreciate your struggle with not wanting to impose a Western hegemonic structure on another culture, but I think you risk primativizing your subject if you try to hold their culture as "outside" discursive structures--the relations of power might function in different ways, but they will have their own discursive relations. Plus, there is no way that you won't be imposing some sort of Western cultural analysis on your subject, simply because you are speaking from a hegemonic Western subject position, whether you use Foucault or not. One thing that strikes me is that your best option might me to try to embed your analysis within a systemic model--that way both you and your subject matter are seen as always already operating within a larger economic system, one which is dominated by "Western" capitalist nations, who need to maintain a "Third World" to allow for endless economic expansion. Then you get out of the "culture" box--Western culture is not superior to Aboriginal culture, but Western economic structures are hegemonic because they control World economics through the World Bank etc. From what I've heard, the work of Immanuel Wallerstein (The Modern World System I, II, III) who sets up a core-perifery model to analyze this, would be immensely helpful to you. If your analysis is seen as part of a larger economic system, you can then try to theorize your position as much as you theorize your women performers. The work of Lila Abu Lugod is particularly good at this--she came out with a book (on Bedowin women, I think) a few years ago and spent much for the first half of the book theorizing her position before she addressed the "other" culture. Good luck--I hope these musings are helpful. I am speaking from a sister discipline--English--so I may have said some things that are already obvious to you.... Rebecca Hyman rch3d@virginia.edu > > I'm having a few problems with discourse theory. I am writing a Phd on > Aboriginal women performers - from a feminist perspective and am adopting a > materialist feminist framework. I believe however, that the non- discursive > or extra discursive needs to be considered - If I am looking one culture > from the vantage point of my white middle class position (etc etc) I need to > acknowledge that there are cultural specificities, cosmologies, dreamings > and unconscious desires that cannot be reduced to mere discourse .. I feel > that to do that - to bring them into discourse would be a eurocentric and > perhaps even a racist? act (in the sense that they are being censored ) I > suppose what I'm really asking is how to say these things are important and > exist without reducing them to discourse and how to theoretically argue for > the non discursive space and the necessity of its existence. > > I have used Rosemary Hennessy's book (which I love) and understand (I > think) her argument for using discourse as ideology (the Althusserian model) > to bridge the gap - but feel I need to have this extended) > > > > If anyone has any good suggestions - ideas or help I'd be delighted to hear them > > thanks > helenaxxxxxxxx > > From pvanwyck@unixg.ubc.ca Mon Jul 31 14:04:41 1995 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:00:08 -0700 To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu From: pvanwyck@unixg.ubc.ca (Peter C. van Wyck) Subject: Re: discourse non discourse >Helena -- > >It sounds to me like you have several theoretical issues >intersecting with one another in your approach (which is what >makes it interesting) but the problem lies in the fact that >they have different foundations. > >If you want to talk about "discourse" as defined by Foucault, >there is no "extra-discursive" because his theory of power >doesn't allow for spaces outside discourse, just as there is no >"outside" ideology in an Althussertian paradigm. (I think >Foucault's power is awfully close to Althusser's ideology, >anyway, with his work countering the base-superstructure model >and the notion of class as the sole determinent.) Helena... I too struggle with this issue. So. Another voice to add to your problem... I'm not really sure I agree with Rebecca's take on this. I don't think Foucault is as Althussertian as this... from Discipline and Punish onward the charge of pan-discursivity just doesn't really apply. For me, anyway, I think that Foucault's micro-critique really starts to function in an enabling fashion at the point at which it makes the discovery that all analysis of cultural practices, institutions and institutionalized thought requires attending to both discursive and non-discursive factors. Whether we are talking about prisons or medicine or environmentalism, there are in addition to the discursive factors (the expressions, that which constitutes the articulable), non-discursive, or extra-discursive zones (bodies, other institutions, flows of Capital, and so on) that are equally involved. This should suggest a shift from consideration of particular, distinctive discursive practices (e.g., Aboriginal women performers), to a broader (but still local or regional) concern with the social and institutional practices that both facilitate and are facilitated by them. Discursive practices are always mediated by what is on the outside. For example, what Foucault has called subjected sovereignties: "... the soul (ruling the body, but subjected to God), consciousness (sovereign in the context of judgment, but subjected to the necessities of truth), the individual (a titular control of personal rights subjected to the laws of nature and society), basic freedom (sovereign within, but accepting the demands of an outside world and "aligned with destiny"). (in Language, Counter-memory, Practice) Each of these requires a micro-critical practice to define the distinctive discursive constellations... but through the constraints imposed upon them by their exteriorites. To bring it back to your question... What, then, a r e the "specificities, cosmologies, dreamings and unconscious desires that cannot be reduced to mere discourse"? And h o w is it that these things operate with respect to the practices that you identify? Does this help at all? peter >> >> I'm having a few problems with discourse theory. I am writing a Phd on >> Aboriginal women performers - from a feminist perspective and am adopting a >> materialist feminist framework. I believe however, that the non- discursive >> or extra discursive needs to be considered - If I am looking one culture >> from the vantage point of my white middle class position (etc etc) I need to >> acknowledge that there are cultural specificities, cosmologies, dreamings >> and unconscious desires that cannot be reduced to mere discourse .. I feel >> that to do that - to bring them into discourse would be a eurocentric and >> perhaps even a racist? act (in the sense that they are being censored ) I >> suppose what I'm really asking is how to say these things are important and >> exist without reducing them to discourse and how to theoretically argue for >> the non discursive space and the necessity of its existence. >> >> I have used Rosemary Hennessy's book (which I love) and understand (I >> think) her argument for using discourse as ideology (the Althusserian model) >> to bridge the gap - but feel I need to have this extended) >> >> >> >> If anyone has any good suggestions - ideas or help I'd be delighted to >>hear them >> >> thanks >> helenaxxxxxxxx >> >> From jlpoxon@mailbox.syr.edu Mon Jul 31 19:30:53 1995 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 21:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Judith L. Poxon" To: matfem@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: discourse non discourse In-Reply-To: In response to Helena's post about the advantages/limits of discourse analysis, as seen from a materialist feminist perspective: In case you're new to this list, which I suspect you are, you should know that there was a fairly lengthy thread concerning the relationships betw. discourse analysis and materialist feminism that ran 2 or 3 months ago. I'm not sure about whether this list is being archived, but you might want to check with the list server to see whether you can track down those files, since I'm sure they'd be helpful to you. Judith Poxon Syracuse University, Dept. of Religion jlpoxon@mailbox.syr.edu