From gimenez@spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Jun 17 11:34:14 MDT 1994 >From gimenez@spot.Colorado.EDU Fri Jun 17 11:34:13 1994 Return-Path: gimenez@spot.Colorado.EDU Received: from spot.Colorado.EDU (gimenez@spot.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id LAA24635 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 1994 11:34:13 -0600 Received: (from gimenez@localhost) by spot.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id LAA20637; Fri, 17 Jun 1994 11:34:11 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 11:34:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Martha Gimenez Subject: INTRODUCTION/GREETINGS To: PPN@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: OR Dear PPNers, I am delighted to see that, with only one announcement, there are already 60 of us who have signed up to discuss population issues from a progressive perspective. I wish I could be here at the time the conversation begins, but I leave today to go to Argentina (my home country) and will return at the end of July. As you saw in the welcome message that you received when subscribing, I am one of seven persons who founded the list. The other PPN-editors are students of population in our PhD program in sociology here at Boulder. So, as I leave the country, I can assure you that PPN is in the competent hands of 6 very interesting people who I hope will shortly introduce themselves and their research interests. More on introductions below. Along with the PPN discussion list, we have accommodations for a PPN archive on CSF. The best way to access the archives is via gopher. Since most internet machines support gopher, you can come in with gopher csf.colorado.edu and you will find a modest beginning for PPN archives under /Progressive-Sociology/Archives-for-PPN I started PPN's archives by uploading a long bibliography and several manuscripts. The bibliography contains all the "progressive" population material I could find plus other readings which are excellent sources of information and theoretical insights. I have over 200 entries in the bibliography and I hope that others will add interesting entries that I have overlooked. Rather than the Gimenez-pop-bib, let's have a community PPN-pop-bib. In addition to gopher you can get a copy of the bib by email. Just send the message get ppn population.bibliography to LISTSERV@csf.colorado.edu If you have entries that you would like to add to the bibliography, please send them to Sandy Kail (Kail@spot.colorado.edu). For openers, why don't we get acquainted and, in doing so, find out our interests. If everyone would send a short biographical statement which includes some of the topics that you would like to see discussed, I suspect that that alone will get interesting discussion going. So I'll begin with a bio of myself and some of my interests: I grew up in Argentina, where I studied Law and Sociology and I now teach Sociology at the University of Colorado at Boulder. I have been here since 1973 and have seen a lot of changes, both in the institution and in the views and aspirations of students. Theory is my major area of intellectual concern. Within this broad area, I specialize in marxist theory, feminist theory, and selected aspects of population theory. In my work, I have sought to expand the theoretical and methodological contributions of Marxism into the theoretical investigation of gender inequality, domestic labor, the effects of the new reproductive technologies, U.S. racial/ethnic politics, and the determinants of population structures and process within capitalism. My current work is about the connections between class and identity politics, issues of multiculturalism and the use of culture, gender, age, race and ethnicity as metaphors or code words for class. However, because I have been able to work with interested graduate students in the area of population theory, I intend to pursue my original inclinations and will start working on population again. My interests in population are reflected in the articles that I have put in the PPN-Archives: One of them,"Marx vs Malthus" was published in Denmark in 1973, but has never been published in English. It is my first publication and, as such, it is dated. But I have been thinking of revising it and updating it and would welcome your comments and suggestions. The other article, "Fertility Control in China," is coauthored with my late colleague Betsy Moen and has never been published. We wrote it after our brief visit to China in 1978 together with H. Yuan Tien, Sylvia Fava, Paul Demeny, Judith Treas and one other demographer whose name now escapes me. I would like to use archived papers as a way to focus discussion on the PPN list. But, since I'm going to be away for 6 weeks, I can't very well recommend my archived papers as the center of discussion. If anyone on the list would like to have their paper put up for discussion, you can send an ascii-text version to Sandy Kail and she can make it available in the archives. So, I'm off to a small town in Argentina where my parents live. No internet there. I can't wait to see what has transpired on PPN when I return in August. see you then, Martha Gimenez From TLIAO%UIUCVMD.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU Sat Jun 18 09:01:51 MDT 1994 >From TLIAO@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU Sat Jun 18 09:01:50 1994 Return-Path: TLIAO@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU Received: from vaxf.Colorado.EDU (vaxf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.9]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id JAA05281 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 1994 09:01:50 -0600 Received: from VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (MAILER@UIUCVMD) by VAXF.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF V4.2-12 #5062) id <01HDOK5FD94W0000NU@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>; Sat, 18 Jun 1994 08:58:03 MDT Received: from VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (NJE origin TLIAO@UIUCVMD) by VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 5256; Sat, 18 Jun 1994 10:02:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 10:01:17 -0500 (CDT) From: TLIAO%UIUCVMD.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU Subject: TSQ Special Section on Demographic Theory To: ppn@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-id: <01HDOK5FD94Y0000NU@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ppn@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Sociological Quarterly Special Section on Demographic Theory ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Sociological Quarterly plans to publish a special section on demographic theories and models in 1995. Submissions are invited. The coverage includes social demographic theory or models (of fertility, mortality, migration, or any other subfields in demography), formal population theory or models, difficulties and successes in constructing demographic theory, pure theoretical conjectures, and empirical tests of theory. New ideas and directions are especially encouraged. Please submit your paper in quintuplet, with a check of $10 payable to the Midwest Sociological Society, to: Tim Futing Liao, Deputy Editor, The Sociological Quarterly, Department of Sociology, University of Illinois, 326 Lincoln Hall, Urbana, IL 61801, before September 1, 1994. From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Mon Jun 20 13:13:26 MDT 1994 >From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Mon Jun 20 13:13:26 1994 Return-Path: behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Received: from osiris.Colorado.EDU (osiris.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id NAA07575 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:13:25 -0600 Received: from taweret.Colorado.EDU (taweret.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.21]) by osiris.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id NAA18097 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:13:24 -0600 Received: (behan@localhost) by taweret.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id NAA14574; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:13:23 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:13:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Behan Pamela Subject: introduction To: PPN@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello! I am one of the six graduate students working with Martha Gimenez on progressive approaches to population studies, here at CU-Boulder. In response to Martha's suggestion, I'll introduce myself and my research interests. I obtained my B.S. from the University of Kansas in the early 70's, first studying political science (with a semester at San Francisco State College during the riots there), then switching to nursing. A dozen years of nursing convinced me that I was more interested in changing the health care system than in being a part of it, so, after a break to recover from a car accident and start a family, I came back to school to see what could be done about the health care system. Demography seemed a good tool to have in studying public policy and public health, so I took several courses from the interdisciplinary Population Program at CU, within my Sociology graduate studies. My interest in population studies, then, is not as my main field of study, but as a useful tool in studying other topics. My interest in the health care system has broadened into an interest in the determinants of health and illness (the social production of each), mortality and morbidity differentials between social classes and between First and Third World nations, the role of power in determining health and illness, and broad social determinants of public policy. I have also gotten interested in how metatheoretical approaches to areas of study shape the results obtained, and in how categorization, definitions, and assumptions often violate the claims of scientific neutrality attached to academic work. One of the most interesting of such assumptions, to me, is the presumption that current power relations are not a variable, but a constant that will continue in any conceivable future. The role of modern power relations in creating social conditions conducive to high fertility, for instance, are easy to ignore if one simply treats them as immutable. The need for social change is then bypassed, in favor of a discussion limited to how to get "those people" (usually the poor, the lower class, the Third World, or some racial group) to change their fertility behavior. Stubborn, irrational behavior is, by implication, attached to some group or nation, and the dynamics of their situation mystified as natural to them, or to human nature. The lack of acknowledgement of such biased assumptions, in my view, limits the usefulness of mainstream demographic work. I have been fortunate, considering my growing dissatisfaction with current demographic approaches, in having a knowledgable faculty member and a group of graduate student colleagues interested in pursuing other approaches together. Our course with Martha this spring helped crystalize and clarify our thinking, and generated this discussion list, as well as a group of papers that begin to explore new approaches to population studies. I will mention one recent research discovery of mine, which may be useful to other PPN members - a growing body of literature called critical medical anthropology, which includes a number of specific studies of the history of public health and health care systems in Third World nations under colonialism and neo-colonialism. I have a beginning reference list on that subject I'd be happy to share with anyone interested. Perhaps some of you out there have done such studies, or know of other interesting bodies of literature relevant to these topics; please introduce yourself and share your information and point of view with us.... Looking forward to some lively responses, Pamela Behan Ph.D. Program Sociology Dept. Univ. of Colorado - Boulder (email address: behan@osiris.colorado.edu) From Alan.Koeninger@anu.edu.au Tue Jun 28 04:23:44 MDT 1994 >From Alan.Koeninger@anu.edu.au Tue Jun 28 04:23:43 1994 Return-Path: Alan.Koeninger@anu.edu.au Received: from anu.anu.edu.au (anu.anu.edu.au [130.56.4.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id EAA22385 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 04:23:39 -0600 Received: from cscgpo.anu.edu.au by anu.anu.edu.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29026; Tue, 28 Jun 94 20:23:37 EST Received: from [150.203.14.53] (caas1.anu.edu.au) by cscgpo.anu.edu.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05911; Tue, 28 Jun 94 20:25:03 EST Message-Id: <9406281025.AA05911@cscgpo.anu.edu.au> X-Sender: axk690@pophost.anu.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 20:24:58 +1000 To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu From: Alan.Koeninger@anu.edu.au (Alan Koeninger) Subject: Community Project from Australia Hello, I am from the Canberra Contemporay Art Space, a gallery in Canberra, Australia. The Gallery is hosting a forum on community to mark the 1st anniversary of its new artist run inititive "Gallery Manuka". Part of this forum, entitled "Canberra Connects" will address new technologies and the Internet. We would like invite you to contribute by answering the following question (the length or style of response is up to you) . . . "Can you describe your relationship with your fellow net users as a kind of community (albeit virtual) or are we seeing a radically new kind of relationship? How does your experiences in the net rebound on your everyday experience in your artistic, academic, or even just geographically defined communities?" As the exhibitions that take place in Gallery Manuka have been 100% grounded in the local community, and staffed by the artists that exhibit there, Gallery Manuka has been very tied into a geographical definition of community. Therefore it is fitting on our anniversary to be questioning how we come to define that community and how it is or could be linked to other similar communities elsewhere. Thanks Alan Koeninger Pease reply to . . . Alan.Koeninger@anu.edu.au ** If interested, I can send you a compilation of the various worldwide responses. Please indicate if you would be willing to recieve this and an e-mail or postal address. -- The CCAS is a not-for-profit, goverment funded exhibition space which supports experimental, critical, or non-commercial art. __________________________________ Alan Koeninger .................................. Computer Aided Art Studio Institute of the Arts Australian National University e-mail: Alan.Koeninger@anu.edu.au __________________________________ From carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Tue Jun 28 11:47:09 MDT 1994 >From carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Tue Jun 28 11:47:07 1994 Return-Path: carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Received: from rastro.Colorado.EDU (rastro.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.21]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id LAA28886 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 11:47:05 -0600 Received: (from carrigan@localhost) by rastro.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id LAA34406; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 11:47:04 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 11:47:04 -0600 (MDT) From: CARRIGAN JACQUELINE ANN Subject: introduction To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My name is Jackie Carrigan and I am a graduate student at the University of Colorado in the department of sociology. My primary areas of interest are demography and Marxist Theory, and I have been working with Martha Gimenez on integrating the two. My research interests of late have focused on social class differences in health and mortality in the US. There has been a tremendous amount of research in this area, but I am struck by the lack of theoretical development. Explanation has tended to focus on individual level "lifestyle choices" at the expense of exploring the role of our social and economic structures in creating and maintaining differences in health. I also have a great deal of interest in fertility studies. I would like a better understanding of the motivations for childbearing (especially comparing the decisions made by those in different classes) in modern capitalist societies. I am unsatisfied with traditional explanations, but have yet to formulate an alternative. Any suggestions? I look forward to interacting with other demographers with similar interests. Jackie Carrigan carrigan@rastro.colorado.edu From CXS3063@UTARLG.UTA.EDU Tue Jun 28 15:51:37 MDT 1994 >From CXS3063@UTARLG.UTA.EDU Tue Jun 28 15:51:36 1994 Return-Path: CXS3063@UTARLG.UTA.EDU Received: from UTARLG.UTA.EDU (utarlg.uta.edu [129.107.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id PAA02070 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 15:51:35 -0600 From: CXS3063@UTARLG.UTA.EDU Received: from UTARLG.UTA.EDU by UTARLG.UTA.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #3170) id <01HE2YEQPUHC005U2O@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 16:51:26 CST Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 16:51:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: introductions To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01HE2YEQPUHE005U2O@UTARLG.UTA.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"ppn@csf.colorado.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello! My name is Cathleen Schlegel-Smith. I'm working on my MA at UT-Arlington, where I have recently developed a strong interest in social demography. Over the last 6 months or so I have enjoyed lurking around PSN, but was thrilled to hear about PPN (thanks, Martha :-) ). I'm primarily interested in the population processes in the United States - particularly in urban areas. The amount of diversity existing among different socio-economic and ethnic groups who share the same city is amazing to me. In addition, I'm very fond of small (geographic) units of analysis. Last semester my classmates and I were required to conduct a rather generic demographic study of any area we found interesting. Many of my classmates chose to study underdeveloped countries. I chose Miami, Fla. and had a much more difficult time obtaining vital statistics. As it turns out fertility and mortality rates in the city of Miami are a bit higher than would be considered desireable, and County (and State) officials are "sensitive" these vital statistics. Put another way, I got the major run-a-round. As progressive population persons, I thought you might find my experience interesting. I'm looking forward to more introductions and to great discussions... Cathleen Schlegel-Smith CXS3063@UTARLG.UTA.EDU From carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Tue Jun 28 17:35:31 MDT 1994 >From carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Tue Jun 28 17:35:30 1994 Return-Path: carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Received: from rastro.Colorado.EDU (rastro.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.21]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id RAA02986 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 17:35:29 -0600 Received: (from carrigan@localhost) by rastro.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id RAA42368; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 17:35:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 17:35:29 -0600 (MDT) From: CARRIGAN JACQUELINE ANN Sender: CARRIGAN JACQUELINE ANN Reply-To: CARRIGAN JACQUELINE ANN Subject: RE: introduction To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu In-Reply-To: <56132.ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jun 1994, Isaac W. Eberstein wrote: > Also, it is true that lifestyle factors (like smoking, etc) are > mortality risks; to deny/ ignore that fact would relegate sociological > analysis to irrelevance. The question is how to integrate structure and > lifestyle in a manner consistent with both sociological and public health > realities. > I recognize that smoking, drinking, diet, exercise, etc. can affect health and mortality, and that there is some measure of individual choice involved in these activities. However, I am interested in understanding why it is that people in certain groups tend to choose similarly. To me this indicates a possible structural influence. People of lower social class tend to engage in more health risky behaviors, and I would like to come to a better understanding of why that is. Jackie Carrigan From carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Tue Jun 28 20:14:27 MDT 1994 >From carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Tue Jun 28 20:14:26 1994 Return-Path: carrigan@rastro.Colorado.EDU Received: from rastro.Colorado.EDU (rastro.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.21]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id UAA04246 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 20:14:25 -0600 Received: (from carrigan@localhost) by rastro.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id UAA23846; Tue, 28 Jun 1994 20:14:26 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 20:14:26 -0600 (MDT) From: CARRIGAN JACQUELINE ANN Subject: Re: introduction To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu In-Reply-To: <9406281133.ZM8920@towel.wpd.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jun 1994, Joe Heinrich wrote: > > > What are some of the unsatisfactory "traditional explanations" for > "motivations for childbearing ... in modern capitalist societies"? In particular, I was referring to the traditional micro-economic approach to fertility decision making that emphasizes maximizing utility and balancing the acquisition of children with the acquisition of other goods. Also, there is the traditional sociological discussions of normative fertility by society or subculture. I am more interested in exploring some of the pronatalist and antinatalist policies and structures in the US that influence fertility decision making. I guess on a personal level, I would like to know why people in this country have children when it seems like a very taxing and overwhelming commitment. Jackie Carrigan From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Jun 29 14:22:02 MDT 1994 >From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Jun 29 14:22:01 1994 Return-Path: behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Received: from osiris.Colorado.EDU (osiris.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id OAA18144 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:22:01 -0600 Received: from taweret.Colorado.EDU (taweret.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.21]) by osiris.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id OAA20705 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:22:01 -0600 Received: (behan@localhost) by taweret.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id OAA13864; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:21:59 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:21:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Behan Pamela To: PPN List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am glad to see some active discussion starting on PPN! However, although I received Alan, Jacquie, and Cathleen's messages, I don't have the messages from Joe and Isaac that Jacquie refers to in her second and third messages dated June 28th. Is anyone else having this problem? Perhaps those messages were directed to Jacquie's private email address by mistake. If so, could Jacquie or Joe and Isaac forward them to the whole PPN network, so we can all get them? Remember to send messages to: ppn@csf.colorado.edu I'll comment on the discussion in a separate message.... Pamela From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Jun 29 14:39:31 MDT 1994 >From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Jun 29 14:39:30 1994 Return-Path: behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Received: from osiris.Colorado.EDU (osiris.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id OAA18634 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:39:30 -0600 Received: from taweret.Colorado.EDU (taweret.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.21]) by osiris.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id OAA18600 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:39:24 -0600 Received: (behan@localhost) by taweret.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id OAA13111; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:39:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:39:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Behan Pamela Subject: RE: lifestyle factors To: PPN List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jun 1994, Isaac W. Eberstein wrote: > Also, it is true that lifestyle factors (like smoking, etc) are > mortality risks; to deny/ ignore that fact would relegate sociological > analysis to irrelevance. The question is how to integrate structure and > lifestyle in a manner consistent with both sociological and public health > realities. Jackie Carrigan replied: I recognize that smoking, drinking, diet, exercise, etc. can affect health and mortality, and that there is some measure of individual choice involved in these activities. However, I am interested in understanding why it is that people in certain groups tend to choose similarly. To me this indicates a possible structural influence. People of lower social class tend to engage in more health risky behaviors, and I would like to come to a better understanding of why that is. I agree that "lifestyle" similarities indicate a possible structural influence. To me, that is an argument for the salience of social class to understanding social processes in the United States. After all, most of the risk factors for health risk behaviors are the parameters defining social class - education, occupation, income, etc. "Lifestyle" similarities support the concept of class cultures, with similar norms and values among those who share similar behaviors. Pamela Behan From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Jun 29 15:35:49 MDT 1994 >From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Jun 29 15:35:48 1994 Return-Path: behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Received: from osiris.Colorado.EDU (osiris.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id PAA19475 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:35:47 -0600 Received: from taweret.Colorado.EDU (taweret.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.21]) by osiris.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id PAA21302 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:35:47 -0600 Received: (behan@localhost) by taweret.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id PAA03683; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:35:46 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:35:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Behan Pamela Sender: Behan Pamela Reply-To: Behan Pamela Subject: Re: fertility in U.S. To: PPN List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII In response to Jackie's question, on a personal level, I think that educated/self-reflecting people have children because it is both a unique personal emotional experience/commitment, and because it is the primary way in which people make the future important to themselves, and one way to have some effect on it. That was the case for me, at least on a conscious level. I cannot speak for other groups, but I suspect motivations vary a great deal. I'm sure that many people want to be mothers and fathers because that seems normal (is the norm), and never think much more about it. At this point, I would think that U.S. family size is determined primarily by norms, by financial and time constraints, and by people's sense of other opportunities for self-expression and closeness. I don't think that the culture and public policy in the U.S. can be said to exactly support having children. Although having children remains a desired norm, the culture seems to support doing so only if you can also provide them with a home in the suburbs, educational vacations, expensive shoes, Nintendo, an orthodontist, etc., etc. As for public policies, most other industrialized nations provide much better benefits, including paid maternity/paternity leave, covering all prenatal and medical care, family support checks, childcare, etc. In the U.S., you're really on your own, particularly if you aren't wealthy enough to take advantage of the per-child tax exemption or childcare deduction. Women who have children with an undependable partner are really heavily punished for it, with child support awards rarely enforced. Paradoxically, I think you could say that the U.S. encourages fertility among those who have enough resources to afford children, but enough other satisfactions to not particularly want them. I think you could say that the U.S. discourages and punishes fertility among those who have little else, and greatly desire children. It then punishes the children for their poverty, recreating the whole cycle..... Pamela Behan From DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Wed Jun 29 17:35:33 MDT 1994 >From DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Wed Jun 29 17:35:32 1994 Return-Path: DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Received: from vaxf.Colorado.EDU (vaxf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.9]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id RAA20889 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 17:35:32 -0600 Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (MAILER@TAMVM1) by VAXF.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF V4.2-12 #5062) id <01HE4F8QPLZ40000W2@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 17:30:38 MDT Received: from tamvm1.tamu.edu (NJE origin DUDLEY@TAMVM1) by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7760; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:32:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:27:49 -0500 (CDT) From: DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU To: ppn@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-id: <01HE4F8QPVMA0000W2@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ppn@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I too did not receive the messages from Ike Eberstein and the other couple of exchanges on the PPN that were referenced in this morning's memo. To send mes- sages to all subscribers, the sender needs to use the TO: address listed above. ...Thank you. ..... Dudley Poston, Texas A&M University From tulja@bose.stanford.edu Wed Jun 29 18:20:42 MDT 1994 >From tulja@bose.stanford.edu Wed Jun 29 18:20:41 1994 Return-Path: tulja@bose.stanford.edu Received: from bose.stanford.edu (Bose.Stanford.EDU [36.74.0.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id SAA21146 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 1994 18:20:41 -0600 Received: by bose.stanford.edu (4.1/inc-1.0) id AA08533; Wed, 29 Jun 94 17:22:48 PDT Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 17:22:48 PDT From: tulja@bose.stanford.edu (tuljapurkar) Message-Id: <9406300022.AA08533@bose.stanford.edu> To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Re: motivations for childbearing. Behan seems to imply (last para) that US fertility is highest among the poor and that this is true for more than one generation (in a family?). I find both propositions unlikely but don't really know. Does someone have numbers? Also I don't see US policy as pronatalist even for the rich! A tax credit per child of say $ 2400 is not much compensation for the costs incurred and earnings forgone. Tulja (Shripad Tuljapurkar, Stanford U.) From joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com Thu Jun 30 11:59:30 MDT 1994 >From joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com Thu Jun 30 11:59:29 1994 Return-Path: joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com Received: from sgigate.sgi.com (sgigate.SGI.COM [192.82.208.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id LAA03856 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 11:59:25 -0600 Received: from relay.sgi.com (relay.sgi.com [192.26.51.36]) by sgigate.sgi.com (940519.SGI.8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id KAA28997; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 10:58:16 -0700 Received: from towel.wpd.sgi.com by relay.sgi.com via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for @sgigate.sgi.com:ppn@csf.colorado.edu id AA20449; Thu, 30 Jun 94 10:58:11 -0700 Received: by towel.wpd.sgi.com (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) for @relay.sgi.com:ppn@csf.colorado.edu id AA11728; Thu, 30 Jun 94 10:58:09 -0700 From: joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com (Joe Heinrich) Message-Id: <9406301058.ZM11726@towel.wpd.sgi.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 10:58:08 -0700 In-Reply-To: Behan Pamela "Re: fertility in U.S." (Jun 29, 15:39) References: Mabell: 415.390.4347 Ddial Xface: FFFF_FFFF_FFFF_FFFF(modulo zed) 64 bits o' black Personal_Life: Virtually Virtuous Mime.Audio: MmmwwoooweeeeEEEoooweeeeeOOOO [makes you feel like you're RIGHT there!] Pabell: 004 000 008dot005 005 009dot008 007 007 000(sub9) Ohhnoooo: It's not poetry, it's Boot PROM code! Oops: Iobject!Iobject! Geek_Alert: I once spoke to Kibo (over e-mail!) X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.1b.0 21jan94 MediaMail) To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: fertility in U.S. Cc: joeh@towel.wpd.sgi.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Folks-- Isn't fertility the *capability* to reproduce? Is it commonly used here to denote the *act* of reproduction (birth)? > Paradoxically, I think you could say that the U.S. encourages fertility > among those who have enough resources to afford children, but enough other > satisfactions to not particularly want them. I think you could say that > the U.S. discourages and punishes fertility among those who have little > else, and greatly desire children. It then punishes the children for > their poverty, recreating the whole cycle..... > > Pamela Behan I think we also need to define what is subsumed in the word "culture" before we can start cataloguing its effects. For instance, does culture include the people pushing shopping carts and living in appliance boxes in the vacant field behind my house? They don't want kids, and that has nothing to do with the undependability of their partners. Does it include the Latin-Americans hanging around outside Home Depot down the street hoping to be selected for spotwork? Talk to them, and they feel they belong to one long extended family, stretching from here to Patagonia. Public policy, of course, is another thing. > > I don't think that the culture and public policy in the U.S. can be said > to exactly support having children. Although having children remains a > desired norm, the culture seems to support doing so only if you can also > provide them with a home in the suburbs, educational vacations, expensive > shoes, Nintendo, an orthodontist, etc., etc. > "Punishment," undefined in this context, seems problematic too. --Joe -- Joe "Joe" Heinrich Almost Online:HTTP://towel.wpd.sgi.com Flatland: joeh@sgi.com Rotary dial: 415.390.4347 DTMF:SameAsAbove BLM Locator:Building8Lower SnailMail:MS/535, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd., Mt. View, CA 94043 From ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu Thu Jun 30 12:50:32 MDT 1994 >From ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu Thu Jun 30 12:50:30 1994 Return-Path: ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (garnet.acns.fsu.edu [128.186.6.137]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id MAA07108 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 12:50:28 -0600 Received: from [128.186.39.110] (ieberstein.coss.fsu.edu) by garnet.acns.fsu.edu with SMTP (5.65c/25-eef) id AA17942; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:50:27 -0400 X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 14:41:42 EST From: "Isaac W. Eberstein" Sender: ieberstn@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Reply-To: ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu Message-Id: <52902.ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu> To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Subject: RE: introduction Here is my response to the original posting, which I did not copy. ------------------------- There is actually a great deal of "theoretically developed" material on mortality, although the Marxist model per se has not been the paradigm of choice for many of us working in the area. Of late there has been an emphasis on individual decision making in regard to lifestyle, but there has always been a lot of sociological and public health attention to more structural explanations which you may find more appealing. The emphasis on, e.g., race or racism as an explanation for B:W differentials in infant mortality, is one example. Work on residential segregation and infant mortality, maternal age and infant mortality, or poverty and infant mortality or other examples. The fact is that these sociological influences are further removed from the event of death and, as such, are of less interest in policy terms than are more immediate factors like prenatal care. Also, it is true that lifestyle factors (like smoking, etc) are mortality risks; to deny/ ignore that fact would relegate sociological analysis to irrelevance. The question is how to integrate structure and lifestyle in a manner consistent with both sociological and public health realities. Good luck on your quest. If I can be of specific help, let me know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Isaac W. (Ike) Eberstein VOICE: 904/644-7108 Population Center FAX: 904/644-8818 Florida State University email: ieberstn@coss.fsu.edu Tallahassee, FL 32306-4063 HOME: 904/386-3383 From hoffmant@rastro.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 30 14:01:13 MDT 1994 >From hoffmant@rastro.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 30 14:01:12 1994 Return-Path: hoffmant@rastro.Colorado.EDU Received: from rastro.Colorado.EDU (rastro.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.21]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id OAA09765 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:01:11 -0600 Received: (from hoffmant@localhost) by rastro.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id OAA23836; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:01:12 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:01:11 -0600 (MDT) From: Hoffman Thomas Subject: Re: fertility in U.S. To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In response to Pam's discussion about the modivations for (and we must not forget the modivationa against) fertility, I'd like to address what seem to me to be mixed messages (or maybe I'm just being overly critical at the expence of misunderstanding Pam,s point). On the one hand, Pam suggests that "educated/self-reflecting PEOPLE" (my emphasis) have children "because it is both a unique personal experience/commitmant..." (which sounds suspiciously like Liz's 'warm fuzzies' hypothesis) "..., and because it is the primary way which people make the future important to themselves." However, Pam does qualify this statement, suggesting that at least this was true in her case. On the other hand, Pam suggests that it is normative for - and this is my point of contention - "people who don't think much about it." (Pam seems to imply that fertility is normative for those of us are who are not one of the aformentioned educated/self-reflecting people). The question that first comes to my mind is: why would (could) more educated/self-reflecting people rise above normative fertility expectations while less educated/self-reflecting people would not? It seems to me that you're proposing a two teired model of fertility differentials: one being based on assumptions of creative/purposive action and the other being based on a type of Easterlin modified neo-classical Demand Theory - which is also based on assumptions that individuals act purposively but are none-the-less disempowered and passive. It seems to me that even highly educated/self-relecting individuals are socially bounded and constrained (or influenced, if a non-determinist vanacular if prefered) by a wide range of role expectations, uncertainty, and normative fertility expectations. For example, is it not normative for many middle status (or class) individuals or couples to be modivated by 'warm fuzzies'? Or is it also not normative to expect childrearing to be 'productively' fulfilling, to provide a notion of accomplishment or a sence of importance for themselve and the future? It seems to me that fertility is a social relationship among not only individuals but also between individuals and other social relations (e.g., production, reproduction, patriarchy, and exploitation - all of which, themselves, are related to each other). I would like to note that, in lue of previous diologue, it does accure to me that I may misunderstand what you intended to suggest. Please, clarify. AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome all of the new PPNers. We are all very pleased with the interest and turn-out for the Progressive Population Net. Thomas Hoffman BOE Department of Sociology C.U. Boulder. From bhavnani@alishaw.ucsb.edu Thu Jun 30 14:16:44 MDT 1994 >From bhavnani@alishaw.ucsb.edu Thu Jun 30 14:16:43 1994 Return-Path: bhavnani@alishaw.ucsb.edu Received: from hub.ucsb.edu (hub.ucsb.edu [128.111.24.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id OAA10213 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:16:37 -0600 Received: from alishaw.ucsb.edu by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA26688 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Thu, 30 Jun 94 13:16:11 PDT for ppn@csf.colorado.edu Received: by alishaw.ucsb.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05531; Thu, 30 Jun 94 13:16:06 PDT Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 13:16:06 PDT From: bhavnani@alishaw.ucsb.edu (Kum Kum Bhavnani) Message-Id: <9406302016.AA05531@alishaw.ucsb.edu> To: ppn@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Unsubcribe I'm afriad I have to ubnsubscribe to this email network, but can't remember how to do it. please could someone let me know? Thanks, Kum-Kum Bhavnani UC at Santa barbara, Dept. of Sociology From lu@ssc.wisc.edu Thu Jun 30 14:23:26 MDT 1994 >From lu@ssc.wisc.edu Thu Jun 30 14:23:25 1994 Return-Path: lu@ssc.wisc.edu Received: from eunice.ssc.wisc.edu (eunice.ssc.wisc.edu [128.104.110.26]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id OAA10522 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:23:23 -0600 Received: from CDE.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by eunice.ssc.wisc.edu; id AA08820; 5.65/42; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 15:22:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 15:22:16 -0500 Message-Id: <9406302022.AA08820@eunice.ssc.wisc.edu> From: lu@ssc.wisc.edu (Hsien-Hen LU) To: "ppn@csf.colorado.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: RE: Unsubcribe I am going to unsubscribe it too. Could anyone help? Thanks. Hsien-Hen From schaper@csf.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 30 14:36:29 MDT 1994 >From schaper@csf.Colorado.EDU Thu Jun 30 14:36:28 1994 Return-Path: schaper Received: (from schaper@localhost) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id OAA10793 for ppn; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:36:28 -0600 From: Lynn Schaper Message-Id: <199406302036.OAA10793@csf.Colorado.EDU> Subject: Unsubscribing To: ppn@csf.Colorado.EDU Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:36:27 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL2] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 438 To PPN-ers: To unsubscribe to PPN, send the following 2-word message to listproc@csf.colorado.edu UNSUB PPN Please leave the subject line blank, and include only this one line in the body of your message. If you are successful, you will receive confirmation from our system. If you have more problems, please write to me privately at the address below. -- Lynn Schaper System Admin manager@csf.colorado.edu :-) From DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Thu Jun 30 14:51:56 MDT 1994 >From DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Thu Jun 30 14:51:55 1994 Return-Path: DUDLEY@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Received: from vaxf.Colorado.EDU (vaxf.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.9]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id OAA11080 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:51:54 -0600 Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (MAILER@TAMVM1) by VAXF.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF V4.2-12 #5062) id <01HE5NSQ68F4000EAA@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 14:46:37 MDT Received: from tamvm1.tamu.edu (NJE origin DUDLEY@TAMVM1) by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3653; Thu, 30 Jun 1994 13:35:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 13:28:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Dudley Poston Subject: Terminology To: PPN Message-id: <01HE5NSQ68F6000EAA@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU> X-Envelope-to: ppn@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A question about demographic terminology was raised in a ppn message received today. Demographers generally distinguish between the ability to produce child- ren and the actual production of children, referring to the former as fecun- dity, and the latter as fertility. Medical scientists, however, do not make such a distinction, usually referring to fertility as reproductive ability. French-speaking and Spanish-speaking demographers (like their English-speaking counterparts) also distinguish between potential and actual reproduction, but reverse the terms. Hence, French-speaking demographers use the term fertilite, and Spanish-speaking demographers the term fertilidad, to refer to reproductive ability; and they use fecondite and fecundidad, respectively, to refer to actual reproductive performance. ....... Dudley Poston, Texas A&M University