From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Feb 1 10:59:02 MST 1995 >From behan@osiris.Colorado.EDU Wed Feb 1 10:59:02 1995 Received: from osiris.Colorado.EDU (osiris.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with ESMTP id KAA17024; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:59:01 -0700 Received: (from behan@localhost) by osiris.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id LAA14492; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:04:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:04:17 -0700 (MST) From: Behan Pamela To: Martha Gimenez cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Call for Participation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think Martha's idea is wonderful, and look forward to some thoughtful, face-to-face interaction! Martha, when is the roundtable Marxist session? Pamela Behan From ts730688@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Fri Feb 17 17:05:45 MST 1995 >From ts730688@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Fri Feb 17 17:05:44 1995 Received: from oak.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id RAA08548 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 17:05:43 -0700 Received: by oak.cats.ohiou.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA15816; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 19:10:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 19:10:55 -0500 From: Thomas Alan Smucker Message-Id: <9502180010.AA15816@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> To: PPN@csf.colorado.edu Subject: urban stats I am doing some research on migrant labor in southern Africa and have a question regarding percent urban statistics. Are seasonal residents in urban areas counted when calculating the percent urban? I am using UN published information and have not found any reference to temporary migration to urban areas. Thanks in advance. From curran@u.washington.edu Fri Feb 24 08:48:48 MST 1995 >From curran@u.washington.edu Fri Feb 24 08:48:47 1995 Received: from mead1.u.washington.edu (mead1.u.washington.edu [140.142.59.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.10/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) with SMTP id IAA20533 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:48:46 -0700 Received: by mead1.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW94.10/UW-NDC Revision: 2.32 ) id AA35704; Fri, 24 Feb 95 07:48:26 -0800 X-Sender: curran@mead1.u.washington.edu Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:48:25 -0800 (PST) From: Sara Curran To: MELLON_DEMOG@GMU.EDU, ppn@csf.colorado.edu Subject: households and demography Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is there anyone else interested in talking about households and demography at the PAAs? I am working on data from Thailand trying to understand how demographers might better understand demographic processes by looking at what goes on inside of households. How are resources allocated? What are the exchange relations between household members that may affect demographic outcomes? How do decisions about migration or fertility affect internal household dynamics? What about intergenerational relations within the household? Are these topics of interest? I was thinking that a group of interested persons might get together to talk about our current research, future research and how it all relates to this topic. Perhaps we can think about some goals which would involve a symposium and some comparative work. I would be particularly interested in addressing theory and methodological issues. I know the PAAs are fast approaching and schedules are filling up but maybe we can find a space and a time that would be good for a majority of interested persons. This would be a very informal meeting. Please respond with your interest to me at: Curran@u.washington.edu A little background on myself. I am currently a postdoctoral research fellow at the Center for Studies in Demography and Ecology at the University of Washington. My dissertation addresses how education and migration opportunities are distributed among young adults in Thailand. I'm hoping to continue that work and to move to comparative work in other countries. I look forward to a response. Please be sure to send the email to my address rather than reply to the list. I will send out another universal email when I have a better sense of the interest and a time to meet. Also, please forward this to other relevant lists or persons that might be interested. Sara ***************************************************** Sara Curran CSDE DK-40 U. of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 206/543-2072 Curran@u.washington.edu From gimenez@csf.Colorado.EDU Mon Feb 27 10:54:20 MST 1995 >From gimenez@csf.Colorado.EDU Mon Feb 27 10:54:20 1995 Received: (from gimenez@localhost) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.10/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id KAA01318; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:54:19 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 10:54:18 -0700 (MST) From: Martha Gimenez To: ppn@csf.Colorado.EDU Subject: Last Call for Participation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear PPNers, I am writing again to invite those of you who are members of PPN and the American Sociological Association to come -- if you intend to attend the meeting -- to a roundtable I have reserved for us at the Roundtables Session of the Marxist Sociology Section. We are going to have only one hour, so there will be no time for lengthy presentations. My goal in organizing the roundtable is to create the conditions for getting acquainted, exchanging ideas about how we understand the notion of "progressive population studies", and figuring out how best to use this forum. If you wish to give a brief presentation and would like to be listed ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in the program, please let me know today. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ cordially, Martha _____________________________________ Martha E. Gimenez Department of Sociology Campus Box 327 University of Colorado at Boulder, Boulder, CO 80309 303-492-7080/6427 gimenez@csf.colorado.edu From gimenez@csf.Colorado.EDU Mon Feb 27 14:21:31 MST 1995 >From gimenez@csf.Colorado.EDU Mon Feb 27 14:21:30 1995 Received: (from gimenez@localhost) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.6.10/8.6.9/CNS-3.5) id OAA23294; Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:21:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:21:27 -0700 (MST) From: Martha Gimenez To: PPN@csf.Colorado.EDU cc: Tom Hoffman Subject: Re: production and reproduction Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is a reply to Tom Hoffman's message of 1/31/95 Tom stated: "I just finished reading Wally Seccombe's 'Marxism and Demography: Household Forms and Fertility Regimes in the Western European Transition". I must add that this article really struck a cord with me. Secombe makes the observation that dialectical marxism tends to ignore the productive contributions of population change. He suggests that there seems to be a tendency to subordinate population to economy." It is not clear to me what "the productive contributions of population change" might be. Population changes might or might not be positively welcome by different institutional sectors depending on the kind of mode of production dominant in a given social formation and, consequently, the kinds of decisions investors and policy makers are likely to make. I may add that Seccombe does not identify the Marxists he criticizes, nor he cites passages so we can see who said what where, so we can make up our minds about the offending views. "Fertility relations seem to be conceptualized to be either in the social super structure or out the picture entirely." By whom? The ubiquituous vulgar determinist economistic marxist? :-) "Seccombe, however seems to conceptualize fertility relations to be interrelated with social base. He suggests that social production itself includes 1. production of the means of production, 2. production of subsistence, and 3. production of labor (i.e., fertility relations - in the context of their interplay with mortality and migration relations). " As Engels pointed out in The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, production is twofold; it entails the production of things (e.g., means of production and subssistence) and the production of life itself. But the production of life and the production of labor are not the same thing. Fertility relations (or relations of reproduction as I have conceptualized them in my work, searching for a broader concept) reproduce people, members of different social classes; capitalist, laborers, rentiers, etc. Marxists make a distinction between the reproduction of workers and the production and reproduction of labor power. The two seldom coincide. Seccombe, in listing the three kinds of production conflates the production of people with the production of labor power. The relations that produce the former overlap with the relations that produce the latter but they are substantively different. "Are fertility relations productive economically? Secombe seems to think so. It seems that his hypothesis is internally consistent and well grounded in historical materialism. " It occurs to me that among the poor peasants studied by Mamdani in The Myth of Population Control, one could argue that in so far as their children were needed as sources of labor for their farms, their relations of reproduction were "productive" for they reproduce an important factor of production. But among the wealthy peasants he studied, who could afford to purchase and use machinery in their large farms, their relations of reproduction had to include efficient use of birth control, otherwise they might turn "unproductive." But this is not a theoretically well grounded response. I think that it is impossible, theoretically, to conceptualize reproduction as "productive" or "unproductive" in isolation of the socio-economic and therefore political relations within which reproduction occurs. Also, I am not very clear about the meaning of productivity in this context. In my view, this is not a very useful line of thought. I think it is, perhaps, more useful, to focus on the historically specific processes that either integrate people into the productive process or exclude them. And this leads to the determinants of quantitative and qualitative changes in the demand for labor which, again, is not equivalent to the demand for laborers or owners of labor power. Tom, I hope you find these comments useful - If you have additional questions, just ask! I will do my best to answer promptly next time :-) in solidarity, Martha ___________________________________________________ \||/ oo BOULDER ooO\/Ooo COLORADO * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Martha E. Gimenez * * e-mail: gimenez@csf.colorado.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *