From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Aug 1 10:49:12 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 1 Aug 93 10:30:58 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 13:22:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Sender: Daniel Ryan Subject: Meet you in Miami? To: socgrad Greetings Sisters, Brothers and Others -- So, how about a role call...? Who, after all is said and done, will we be seeing in Miami? I'm getting in touch with ASA this week to see if our request for a SOCGRAD table at the DAN party was accepted -- will let ya'll know. We might and/or also firm up a time to get together other than that (especially since some folks aren't coming 'til Saturday). Proposals. 1) Say out loud if we can expect to see you. 2) Stay tuned for DAN party info. 3) Figure out the "other" get-together plan (earlier proposals included meeting for drinks after the president's address or another night or having lunch early in the conference or getting together for a poolside "splash" after or instead of one of the plenary sessions or heading out to the beach first thing one morning (swim with the dolphins (natural, not NFL)) or having all these music people take us on a tour of Miami's equivalent of a scene or... Cheers, Dan ................................................ A precipice in front, wolves behind. -- Erasmus From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Aug 1 15:28:26 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 1 Aug 93 15:13:10 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 15:11:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Tanya Pergola Subject: RE: Music... To: socgrad@ucsd.edu On Sat, 31 Jul 1993 pickerin@ssc.wisc.edu wrote: > I have one thing to say....SAMIAM RULES!....and Jawbreaker...and > Fugazi... > and Sebadoh.... and the New Bomb Turks,etc. But - no offense > meant personally -Bikini Kill? L7? Come on! Those bands (to use one of > Beavis and Butthead's > favorite terms) SUCK!!! Yeah...so what ? I like M&M's...my partner enjoys Stash teas...so how does a laundry list of preferences add to a discussion ? > (By the way, there's an amusing interview with those > two in the newest issue of Rolling Stone. I hate reading music magazines that > don't even have a clue, like Rolling Stone and Spin for instance, but I made > an exception this time) Well, I'm sorry for insulting those bands...but I > just had to do it! Ohhhh I get it...normally you're way too cool to read such "mainstream drivel", ...but you've made an exception in this case and you want to make darned sure we don't get the wrong impression. Over and out...10-4. > P.S. If there are any socgrads out there who are musicians and/or big > music fans, drop me a line and let me hear your thoughts about > music and society, or if you just want to b.s. about aesthetics, > that's cool too! Sorry again for the insult! I just couldn't help > myself. If anybody feels like insulting my music, I'm open to it. > See ya! "MUSIC TELEVISION WILL NOT BE REVOLUTIONIZED!" > (How's that for an 'alternative' MTV slogan?) Yyaaaawwwnnn.....I imagine most of us tired of attitudes like yours in 10th grade... ..on a somewhat related note, why is it that so many folks take great pleasure in deriding and ridiculing MTV ?....If people don't like it why don't they just ignore it ? I mean, when I go to the cinema and watch (what I feel) is a good movie, the last thing I would want to do is go home and bitch about "all those commercial sitcoms" like "Roseanne" or "The Golden Girls"... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ This seems to be the standard MTV critique Oh well... JP bigstar@u.washington.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Aug 1 16:28:10 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 1 Aug 93 15:50:37 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 18:40:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Sender: Daniel Ryan Subject: What is DAN? Elucidation... To: socgrad Howdy again, all. Sorry for slipping into acronymese. D.A.N. is Departmental Alumni Night. Usually on the second night (if my memory serves me) of the annual meeting there is a "party" in one of the hotel "ballrooms" that is built around every department having a round table with a pole and sign, "xyz U," next to it. It is sort of like Herod's census -- all the sociologists go back to the land (i.e., departmental tables) of their birth. Sometimes a few current faculty will play "host" at the table. There is a cash bar (expensive convention center prices). It's sort of a mini-grad school reunion. Where do current grad students go during this event. Usually we hang out at "our" table, but the folks "coming back" are there to see each other, not us. It can be great fun -- and even professionally "useful" -- or it can be tedious, a little boring and such to stand around as the little kids of the department. As an alternative form of adult entertainment, we've looked into the possibility of having a table that has a pole and a sign that says "SOCGRAD." At last check, all was in order. As previous mail indicated, final word as soon as I get it. That's the story. Dan ............................................................................ IN THE LONG RUN, we are all dead. Keynes _Tract on Monetary Reform_ (1923) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Aug 1 17:11:48 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 1 Aug 93 16:37:57 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Sun, 1 Aug 93 23:37:57 GMT Date: Sun, 01 Aug 93 19:10:11 EST From: Jon Subject: Virtual Reality To: "Ya'll" HAs anyone seen the article in the latest issue of Symbolic Interaction on Goffman's Frame Analysis and virtual reality? I think it makes some excellent observations. How would you "frame" an experience which is real in all respects except that it isn't "real." The example She uses is a flight simulator. A note on the last note about music and who like what: I really think it's irrelvent what music I like personally but it sure is nice to have a place to go and ventilate and babble, isn't it? By the way why shouldn't sociolgy concern itself with the "mainstream"? you'd think it was kind of important.............. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 2 08:11:26 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 2 Aug 93 07:29:14 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 02 Aug 93 10:19:18 EDT From: Bob Gossweiler Subject: ASA list To: "Bob G." Along with Dan's suggestions of getting together, we should develop a list of who is presenting and when. This way we can see each others presentations and also give support (large numbers) to fellow students. I go at Monday, 16th 4:30 at the normal Deviance session. [normal Deviance, oxymoron? ;) ] Bob G. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 2 10:44:25 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 2 Aug 93 10:09:03 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 13:08:41 EST From: lkl@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu Subject: ASA List Reply Bob offers an excellent suggestion. I am presenting at tow roundtable sessions meeting on Friday, 13th 12:30 and 2:30 (Criminology and Marxist From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 2 11:07:16 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 2 Aug 93 10:10:34 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 13:10:09 EST From: lkl@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu Subject: ASA List Reply Bob offers an excellent suggestion. I am presenting at two roundtable sessions meeting on Friday, 13th 12:30 and 2:30 (Criminology and Marxist sponsored sessions). Lloyd Klein From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 2 14:21:35 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 2 Aug 93 12:42:08 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Mon, 2 Aug 93 19:42:08 GMT Date: Mon, 02 Aug 93 15:25:40 EST From: Jon Subject: shameless self-promotion To: others I'm doing two presentations: Monday. 12:30. youth Culture Roundtable Sunday. 10:30. Scholar to Scholar presentation on Baudrillard( THis one I did on computer. Stop by a grab a free disk (Windows users) Later, Jon "I am the king of the world." Cacius Clay From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 2 17:33:51 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 2 Aug 93 16:30:49 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Mon, 2 Aug 93 23:30:39 GMT Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 23:30:39 GMT From: oakley@shsmps.span Subject: de-list for now To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 2 19:40:39 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 2 Aug 93 19:17:46 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 22:21:56 -0400 (EDT) From: SMITHBK@bcvax1.bc.edu Subject: Another weird query from beyond time To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Hey -- Doesn't ANYONE listen to classical music? I mean, as in Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Berlioz, and Bartok, NOT classic rock! Bev (what ever happened to Charlie Gracie?) Smith From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 06:07:24 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 05:32:35 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 03 Aug 93 08:24:41 EST From: Steve Harvey Subject: music To: friends Bev- I listen to classical, jazz, blues, accoustic, as well as rock from the 60s and 70s..., this whole music-scene dialogue has really made me feel out of touch (though I always knew that I was)! My opinion on music (though who's to say what's "good"?) is that every generation produces a lot of noise and a little bit of timeless brilliance.... Well, ALMOST every generation. So why limit oneself to the present? -Steve the old fart. harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 09:18:35 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 08:37:23 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.930803113544.384; 03 Aug 93 11:35:56 +500 To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu Date: 3 Aug 93 11:35:34 EDT Subject: fugazi i agree with steve harvey, the muzak dialogue made me feel out of touch, but stirred my european slam-dancing roots (do punks still drink lots of beer, injest amphetimines, slam dance and get beat up by roadies?)...fyi sunday's washington post carried a story about fugazi (appearently the name is an acronym used be viet nam soldiers meaning "fucked up situation")...seems even youth culture icons are coming around to embrace the troops...fugazi will be playing this weekend in washington to commemorate m.l. king jr's march on washington, august '63 (u2 also paid homage to dr. king on the rattle and hum album)...best of all the concert is free...seems all fugazi d.c. concerts are free or proceeds go to social and political causes...i'll go down and check them out, anything i should be keen to?...seems their musical influences are rock, metal, punk and reggae (remnants of the early police, the clash, fishbone, ian dury and blockheads) in addition to an uncompromising anti- commercialism...just more pastiche to the pie...can i use pastiche in the that sentence? chillin' in maryland morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 10:33:56 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 09:49:51 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 03 Aug 93 12:39:56 EDT From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: MUZAK To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi all! Like some of the others, I have been enjoying the muzak discussion without even recognizing the names of the performers, or, in some cases, the kind of music being discussed. As an OLDER, non- traditional student (that means I'm 46 and married, with 2 teenaged sons and a career in nursing) I find I lack the ability to appreciate much of the music you discuss--and yet, every now and then the radio station I enjoy plays one of my son's _favorite_ songs. It seems that the music that lasts--that remains popular for years--is generally that with easily recognized words, melody, and themes. Anyway, keep up the various discussions. I enjoy them and am learning a lot about music and about sociology and sociologists. Marni From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 17:02:21 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 16:28:15 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 17:46:30 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: more muzak As one of the instigators of this thread, I'm starting to feel kinda bad that all you socgraders out there are being subjected to a bunch of laundry lists of fave bands/artists and messages like "so-and-so sucks!" After all, this is a SOCIOLOGY list and NOT a music list! I do think that aesthetic judgements are sociologically interesting when approached from a soc of knowledge perspective or the like. The whole question of what constitutes ART is a very sociological one! (Madonna? Bon Jovi? Fugazi? Marillion? Ice T? which is "art"?) One of my own personal soc axes to grind (as Jon Epstein will attest) is that I think that these distinctions are often defined in a sexist manner. For instance, pickerin@ssc.wisc.edu said that all-male bands Samiam, Fugazi and Sebadoh "rule" while all-female/mixed-gender bands L7 & Bikini Kill "suck." Hmmmmmmm...... Dave aka bigdog says that metalheads know why they want to be fans: "for the music and the anger it represents." Well, I'll bet you $50 that punks and wiggers would both say EXACTLY the same thing. And so would 1960s era mods and skinheads. So why do different people attach themselves to different subcultural identities? Or why not just remain a part of the undifferentiated majority of youth? I think these are sociological questions. (Also, Dave, some sociologists may fool themselves into thinking they understand a "scene" that they really have no knowledge of; but some of us became interested in youth culture via our own personal involvements. While doing field work on punks, I found myself thinking how insane the kids were to be slam-dancing and stage-diving..... Things I used to do about a decade ago.... Made me feel awfully old!) Well, I could spew off on the whole question of the relationship between musicians & their music & the fans who love 'em, but you all are granted a reprieve from that discussion until another day! Linda "doesn't know Baudrillard from a basketball" Andes From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 17:52:08 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 17:02:50 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 20:01 EDT From: Subject: Odds and Sods To: socgrad@ucsd.edu HeHeHe... Thats for the older folks. I must agree with an earlier statement that each generation makes a lot of noise (though I call it crap) with a few pieces of brillance thrown in. I feel the same way across music generes. There's good ska, rap, punk, thrash, noise, industrial, blues, reggae, country (whoops stupid Xedit doesn't have a strike through option), vocal and show music. On the other hand, about 95, 90, 80, 80, 80, 90, 70, 90, 100, 98, and 99 percent, respectively are crap. Guess Who (not the band) is on the Cover of the Rolling Stone (not the Dr. Hook song)? Beavis and Butthead, voice of a new youth culture. I'll get to Rolling Stone just as soon as I polish off the newest ASR. Sleepy. .. You are feeling sleeeeppppy. Jetaway (ZZZZZZZZZZ) Dave. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 19:56:22 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 19:32:55 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list by weber.ucsd.edu (8.5/UCSDGENERIC.4c) on ttyv2 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 19:32:54 -0700 From: lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu (Laura Miller) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: music as product To all you muzak scholars: As I've been working on the topic of distribution in the publishing industry (i.e., bookselling and wholesaling), it's been suggested to me that I try to find work on channels of distribution in other areas of popular culture -- such as music. I've had little luck finding stuff on my own. Can anyone give me cites to anything? I'd be especially interested in relations between consumers and record stores. Thanks. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu lmiller@ucsd.bitnet From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 20:16:47 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 19:53:23 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 4 Aug 93 02:53:23 GMT Date: Tue, 03 Aug 93 21:10:25 EST From: Jon Subject: What Linda Said To: You I think that many of the ways in which people define their musical taste can be explained by gender. Deena Wiensteins book on metal has some studff to say about women's relationship to the metal scene. Rock n' Roll is sexist. No doubt about this at all.... so do we condemn it for it's, content or study it as ther cultural form it represents (Simmel. The Tragedy of Modern Culture) Later, Jon " Knows Baudrillard form a basketball"Epstein FUGAZI IS A MARILLION ALBUM. I like it becuase of the music and the anger it represents. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 3 22:50:19 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 3 Aug 93 22:35:21 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 00:23:30 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: What Jon said Jon, are you baiting me?! Should sexist rock be condemned? Hmmmmm..... Linda the sociologist says no, and wants to (dare I say it) deconstruct the underlying assumptions and better understand the phenomenon. Linda in her political incarnation disagrees with any form of censorship. Linda the feminist and sometime musician wants to grab a guitar and turn it up to eleven alongside her sisters and blast those sexist rockers offa the pages of Spin.......... (Jon, this is the same Linda-self that recorded Bikini Kill over the Gwar tape you sent and gave to an unsuspecting male metalhead friend! I hope you'll understand!) Linda "knows a Mustang from a Ripstar, but doesn't know Baudrillard from Derrida" Andes From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Aug 4 07:29:59 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 4 Aug 93 06:37:56 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 4 Aug 93 13:37:55 GMT Date: Wed, 04 Aug 93 08:55:50 EST From: Jon Subject: WHat Linda said Jon said To: socgrad@ucsd.BitNet Of course I'm baiting you, Linda. It's a guy thing. The problem with the sexism in rock is this: What is rock music actually doing vis a vis culture? Is it a reflection of existing standards, the purveyor of new standards, or in a postmdern free-float? The way you answer this in turn answers the sexism charges. Rock is obviously sexist as is most "popular' music. Always has been. It's also a white thing. SO what we end up with is a bunch of white males singing in a form co-opted from african americans, about making the babe in the back seat of a chevy. There are so many songs that are about this that it is almost an ideal type. It seems obvious that rock is about something else, beyond this. Later, Jon "actually read Derrida Once" Epstein "The point is not to write the sociology of the car, the point is to drive. In this way you learn more about society than all academia could ever tell you." Baudrillard. America From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 10:42:13 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 10:09:45 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 05 Aug 93 12:57:26 EDT From: Dan Ryan Subject: ASA DAN To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Greetings pals -- Just got a letter from the DAN coordinator at ASA. I'll quote from it in part: ...have your request all in order...a sign is being made to read: SOCGRAD/Grad Student Computer Network. In order to dress up your sign, I have chosen the colors, red, white and blue. Hoping this meets with your approval! There's some further material about them sending me a statement (read "invoice") in the near future, but I think I'll deal with that problem when it arises. I've also looked into name tag stickers or ribbons or some such, but it looked like more trouble than I'm up to engaging in at the moment (what with doing the layout for my "business" cards, fixing bicycles, painting my floor and, oh yes, doing interviews). Just for fun, though, what do you think about attaching, say, a little orange circle to our nametags? No words, not big, just a little mysterious sign that all those clever sociologists who aren't on this list will wonder what it means. We'll all recognize those among us who are "regulars," but this will also let the silent majority indicate their affiliation. I'll bring some along if we're into it.... As Arlo Guthrie (American folksinger, mid to late 20th century) once said, "...and if four of you do it, they'll think it's a movement...." Cheers, Dan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 11:05:54 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 10:31:50 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 05 Aug 93 13:30:21 EDT From: DJR Subject: Compounding mistakes...by apologizing... To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Sorry about the duplication, folks. Now you can see how one mind tries to reconstruct a message from memory. Lost the connection as I sent off the first and didn't realize it had indeed gone out. And this from someone who works as a computer consultant in his spare time. The country is going to hell -- how will we ever compete in the 21st century if people like me can become sociologists? DJR -- ever the gaffe maker From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 11:30:59 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 10:24:02 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 05 Aug 93 13:10:46 EDT From: Dan Ryan Subject: ASA DAN PARTY To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Greetings ebuddies -- I just got a letter from the ASA about our request for a table at the Departmental Alumni Night party. Here's, in part, what it says: ...and have your request all in order...a sign is being made to read: SOCGRAD/Grad Student Computer Network. In order to dress up the sign, I have chosen the colors, red, white and blue. Hoping this meets with your approval! ...pass the word among your members.... There is also mention of the fact that I will receive a "statement" (read "invoice") in the near future. I'll deal with that problem when it arrives. I looked into the nametag sticker thing and it looked like more trouble slash expense than excites me right now. How about, though, adorning our name badges with a small, say, orange, dot -- no words, not big, just noticeable -- that all those observant and clever sociologists who aren't on this list will wonder just what it means. Maybe some will even ask! As Arlo Guthrie (American folksinger, late 20th century) once sang, "...and if four of you do it...they'll think it's a movement!" As for the DAN, I've passed my prelim prog on to a colleague so could someone post a note about which night it is? I think it's Friday at 10pm, but my mind doesn't do well with basic facts like that. Sea yawl, Dan P.S. For off-net replies, please note temporary change of e-abode. %) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 12:20:35 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 11:16:52 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 05 Aug 93 14:01:37 EDT From: DJR Subject: Summer Sociology Quiz To: socgrad@ucsd.edu The 1993 Summer Sociology Quiz Who Started Where? Match the following sociologists with their dissertations! Apologies for the fact that the list is 1) slightly Yale- and Columbia-centric, and 2) all male, and 3) all old. It's just a game. Daniel Bell Harold Garfinkel Erving Goffman Howard S. Becker Thomas Luckmann James S. Coleman Peter Berger C. Wright Mills Charles Perrow Kai Erikson Charles Kadushin Albert Reiss Robert Merton Harrison White Juan J. Linz Art Stinchcombe 1. The Accuracy, Efficiency and Validity of a Prediction Instrument 2. A Sociological Account of Some Aspects of Pragmatism 3. Wayward Puritans: A Study in Deviance 4. Social Sources of Rebellion in a High School 5. Rules Regarding Social Interaction in a Rural Community 6. The End of Ideology: On the Exhaustion of Political Ideas in the Fifties 7. Authority, Goals and Prestige in a General Hospital 8. Research and Development as a Pattern of Industrial Management -- A Case Study of Institutionalization and Uncertainty 9. The Perception of the Other: A Study in Social Order 10. Steps on the Way to a Psychiatric Clinic 11. The Social Bases of West German Politics 12. Political Cleavage Within the International Typographical Union 13. Role and Career Problems of the Chicago Public School Teacher 14. From Sect to Church -- A Sociological Interpretation of the Bahai Movement 15. A Comparative Study of Four Protestant Churches in Germany 16. Sociological Aspects of Scientific Development in Seventeenth Century England From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 12:30:01 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 12:02:16 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 05 Aug 93 14:57:21 EDT From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: DAN To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU The DAN party is Friday, August 13, at 10:30 or so, after the opening plenary. Many thanks to Dan Ryan for arranging our table. Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:13:59 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 12:01:07 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: julianp@sfu.ca Subject: What Baudrillard didn't say To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 12:01:03 PDT Excerpts from "WHY WOMEN CAN'T ROCK" (by Everett True) - 'Melody Maker' Sept '92 "It (rock) started as a bastardised form of expression for American male teen- agers who were too unthinking to realise rebellion might mean anything more thana new leather jacket and a quick fuck in the back of a Chevy. The idea was to give the illusion of rebellion - not the actuality - to give a quick vicarious thrill to its audience. Its rules, its rituals, its precepts haven't changed. Rock is still dictated to by white middle-class MEN. Rock is the music of the playground bully, the conformist, the kid too scared tothink for himself. It's for the wannabe lads, not brainy or brawny enough to make it any other way. A boy's club. Rock is the music of Presley, the Stones, the Clash and Guns N'Roses; tribal, dedicated to destroying what it doesn't understand and suppressing the viewpoint of the outsider (blacks, gays, the disabled, even 'artists'. . .). Where do women fit into all this? Quite simply, they don't As soon as any strong, vital rock woman comes along, she's immediately margin- alised, made safe by being classified in a varity of 'outsider' roles. Thus you have: Your 'witches': Courtney Love, Lydia Lunch, Slits, Siouxsie... Your man-haters/ball-busters: PJ Harvey, Sinead O'Connor, Babes in Toyland, Breeders, Bikini Kill... Your poetesses, made impotent by their very art: Polly Harvey again, Patti SmithKristin Hersh, Bjork... Your 'hags': PJ yet again, Courtney even, Sinead surprisingly, anyone who wears combat boots... Your madwomen: Sinead, Courtney, Cranes, Bjork... And so on... Thus they are effectively castrated and have no relevance to the reality of everyday MALE - and FEMALE - life. Because, using the pitifully outdated Fiftiesvalues that rock still holds dear, all women are either Doris Day or Marilyn Monroe - home-makers or sex objects. And if they're neither then they must be like that other great Fifties female icon, Bette Davis (i.e 'mad'). A concept such as a strong, free-thinking woman is completely alien to the true ideals of rock. Because rock is about the illusion of revolution, not the actuality, remember... It doesn't matter if any of the above may or not be creative. What matters is the way they're perceived/marketed. So why bother fighting all that? Rock is a firmly patriarchal form of expression, all the way down the line; the fans, the critics, the money-holders, the musicians. It's far too gone now for any change. Of course, rock likes to give the illusion of change. That's what it's all about. So it lets in the odd half-dozen or so female movers and shakers-Madonna, Susan Silver (Soundgarden's manageress). the odd Maker stringer. Illusion of change is all it is, though. Rest assured, it would never allow any-thing more. And now it's a rotten, tired, middle-aged medium made completely unthreatening in its omniscience by the tired, middle-aged MEN who grew up with it. It's as dead as the MEN who created it. And just as turgid. Women can'trock. The rules don't allow it." So there you have it. Baudrillard has risen from the ashes, and I've just realised why you should never write a thesis on something that's so close to your heart. I think I'll stick to my boring rant on why socialism's not dead yet J.P in SWEATY Vancouver. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 5 18:13:06 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 17:36:53 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 19:32:06 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: He said She said Jon sez: >The problem with the sexism in rock is this: >What is rock music actually doing vis a vis culture? Is >it a reflection of existing standards, the purveyor of new standards, >or in a postmdern free-float? The way you answer this in turn >answers the sexism charges. Am I allowed to answer that rock can be both a reflection of existing standards AND a purveyor of social change? The big debate seems to be over whether culture---->society or society-----> culture, while I think it's more likely that culture & society exist in a dialect of two-way causality.... Model that! As for a postmodern free-float: Jon, I just read your ASA paper this week and I think that I still need some study time to digest this postmodernism stuff. Anybody out there got any (reasonably understandable) references that might help me out with my solitary struggle to get a handle on this stuff? ("Postmodernism" is a REALLY dirty word in my department!) > "The point is not to write the sociology of the car, the point is to drive. > In this way you learn more about society than all academia could > ever tell you." Baudrillard. America Ha ha! This is almost EXACTLY identical to what a pal o'mine told me about my MA research! He said, "I think you could teach those stuffy old farts more about punk in ten minutes with a can of spray paint then you ever could with a hundred pages of interview transcriptions...." I replied that they wouldn't give me an MA for that! ========================================================================= Julian sez Everett True sez: >Excerpts from "WHY WOMEN CAN'T ROCK" (by Everett True) - 'Melody Maker' >..........Rock is the music of Presley, the Stones, >the Clash and Guns N'Roses; tribal, dedicated to destroying what it doesn't >understand and suppressing the viewpoint of the outsider (blacks, gays, the >disabled, even 'artists'. . .). Well, what we've got here is exactly what I've been whining to Jon about for quite a while now -- a definition of rock which is usually unstated and androcentric, and not very clear at that. Rock writers & fans WANT to define rock in aesthetic terms (perhaps a musicologist could do this), but in reality the definition winds up being social (ie. white men do it, or other people who SOUND like white men). I'm thinking about writing a paper on this, so any ideas are welcome...... >Where do women fit into all this? Quite simply, they don't.... >As soon as any strong, vital rock woman comes along, she's immediately margin- >alised, made safe by being classified in a varity of 'outsider' roles.... >Thus they are effectively castrated......... Heh heh heh, what a poor choice of language! I just don't buy a metaphor that women (or anyone, for that matter) aren't or can't be powerful because they lack a particular organ... To self-censor a lyric from an L7 song: she's "got so much cl*t, she don't need any balls!" >Rock is a firmly patriarchal form of expression, all the way down the line; the >fans, the critics, the money-holders, the musicians. It's far too gone now for >any change.... ....Women can't rock. The rules don't allow it." Well, this comes right back to what Jon said back at the beginning of this message. Is rock a reflection of culture or is it an instrument of social change? I guess Everett True would say that it's a reflection and that it can't have a thing to do with social change. (This is all rather humorous to me, since I met Everett True last spring when he was touring with rather out-spoken feminists Band of Susans! I guess he'd have to say they don't "rock" since two members are female....) Linda "life's a b*tch, now so am I" Andes u35455@uicvm.cc.uic.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 6 00:13:36 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 5 Aug 93 23:47:31 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 23:33:14 -0700 (PDT) From: J Paschel Subject: Re: What Baudrillard didn't say (fwd) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu > Excerpts from "WHY WOMEN CAN'T ROCK" (by Everett True) - 'Melody Maker' Sept '92 *** Talk of Rock and roll as false consciousness deleted *** > Where do women fit into all this? Quite simply, they don't > As soon as any strong, vital rock woman comes along, she's immediately margin- > alised, made safe by being classified in a varity of 'outsider' roles. Thus you > have: > Your 'witches': Courtney Love, Lydia Lunch, Slits, Siouxsie... > Your man-haters/ball-busters: PJ Harvey, Sinead O'Connor, Babes in Toyland, > Breeders, Bikini Kill... > Your poetesses, made impotent by their very art: Polly Harvey again, Patti SmithKristin Hersh, Bjork... > Your 'hags': PJ yet again, Courtney even, Sinead surprisingly, anyone who wears > combat boots... > Your madwomen: Sinead, Courtney, Cranes, Bjork... > And so on... Everett...you're missing your own point here. The women on this list only share one real thing in common with me. By and large, they bore me to tears. I could easily construct just such an arbitrary group of popular male rock and roll figures and proceed to put them in categories just as those detailed above...let's see Your warlocks: Ozzy Osbourne, Alice Cooper, GG Allin Women haters: Ice T, Sir mix a lot, Robert Plant Your poets: Kurt Cobain, Pete Townsend, Michael Stipe You get the picture...perhaps my 10 second itemization might not be as cutely thought out, but, then again, I don't write for MM. The point is that now your gender argument has fallen on it's face. Though I wouldn't agree with this, perhaps a better way of phrasing your argument might be that all major rock and roll figures are made safe by marginalizing them to the role of the outsider > It doesn't matter if any of the above may or not be creative. What matters is > the way they're perceived/marketed. > So why bother fighting all that? > Rock is a firmly patriarchal form of expression, all the way down the line; the > fans, the critics, the money-holders, the musicians. It's far too gone now for > any change. Of course, rock likes to give the illusion of change. That's what > it's all about. So it lets in the odd half-dozen or so female movers and shakers-Madonna, Susan Silver (Soundgarden's manageress). the odd Maker stringer. > Illusion of change is all it is, though. Rest assured, it would never allow any-thing more. > And now it's a rotten, tired, middle-aged medium made completely unthreatening > in its omniscience by the tired, middle-aged MEN who grew up with it. It's as > dead as the MEN who created it. And just as turgid. > Women can'trock. The rules don't allow it." This all sounds like some fancy reworking of the classic "corporate rock sucks" argument. I see nothing really new here. Jarrett bigstar@u.washington.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 6 07:41:06 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 6 Aug 93 06:33:19 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 06:27:03 -0700 (PDT) From: J Paschel Sender: J Paschel Subject: Re: He said She said (fwd) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu > * Linda sez... > > * Jon sez... > > "The point is not to write the sociology of the car, the point is to drive. > > In this way you learn more about society than all academia could > > ever tell you." Baudrillard. America > > Ha ha! This is almost EXACTLY identical to what a pal o'mine told me about > my MA research! He said, "I think you could teach those stuffy old farts > more about punk in ten minutes with a can of spray paint then you ever > could with a hundred pages of interview transcriptions...." I replied that > they wouldn't give me an MA for that! As you pointed out, you "could teach those stuffy old farts more about punk in ten minutes with a can of spray paint then you ever could with a 100 pages of interview transcriptions" ...Of course you could! That's because you probably grew up doing (or being associated with) whatever it is that "punk rockers" do. No, they wouldn't give you an MA for that. MA's are usually awarded after you complete some sort of training course or certification program. If MA's were awarded on the basis of "what you knew", anybody could get one and job competition would become fierce. The problem is that you are in graduate school not to "know stuff" or to "learn stuff"...you're here to get training (practical, hands-on experience) in what it is that social scientists do. Hence the need for lots of detailed notes and interviews. I for one don't ever plan on learning anything (other than job related stuff) from my experiences in the academy that I couldn't discover in any other occupation. If it were really true that folks in "science" or the academy were really concerned with learning stuff, we wouldn't have throngs of journals packed with articles that go largely unread. I don't mean to sound "jaded" or "sarcastic" at all. I actually love my work...especially the lifestyle. Still, I fail to see how this particular trade is any more related to "learning stuff" or "the advancement of knowledge than any other occupation. Though an argument could be made that some of occupational characteristics of this work are such as to facilitate learning (i.e. summers off, not physically taxing, lot's of flexible hours), I'd be quick to point out that many other occupations share some of these characteristics. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 10 12:43:12 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 10 Aug 93 11:28:03 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 14:26:28 EST From: jason joyner Subject: sub socgrad To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 10 15:02:42 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 10 Aug 93 13:51:11 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 15:02:45 -0500 From: pickerin@ssc.wisc.edu To: "socgrad@ucsd.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: laundry lists,etc.,etc.,etc! Sorry to take so long to respond to the constructive (and at times not-so-constructive) comments about my E-mail message of about a week ago. At first some of the reactions people had to my little (apparently not-so- amusing) "Beavis and Butthead" rendition struck me as a bit absurd and not worth responding to over the network, but it was pretty obvious that the likelihood of anyone having read the Beavis and Butthead interview in Rolling Stone was low, so the possibility of the message being interpreted correctly was about nil. So, here I am, having decided to respond to some of the comments that people have made. First of all, I apologize for this message's untimeliness, but if I remember correctly, the "muzak" discussion of awhile back centered around sociological explanations of what drew certain individuals into certain "scenes" and what these people found to be attractive about the music, etc. The interjection of a "Beavis and Butthead", "10th Grade", "Laundry List" approach was a sarcastic (and apparently not-so-amusing) attempt at bringing the discussion "back down to earth." (And as Bob Mould once said, "Walking around with your head in the clouds makes no sense at all." - I kind of figured that a Husker Du quote would be appropriate since we're discussing "alternative" music after all) As we all know, most people are not sociologists, nor do they think like sociologists. Therefore to rely solely on "objective" and logical explanations as to why people like the music that they do, there's going to be a lot going on that you might miss. A logical person knows that logic only goes so far, especially when the discussion turns to issues like music, love, spirituality, etc. Since music is such a visceral art form, often people simply like something because "it rules" or dislike it because "it sucks." Sure, there are countless other factors that go into the construction of individual preferences, but in the case of music (and this is what my subjectiveinsight tells me) there is a great deal going on that logical explanations cannot account for. Musical preference is more or less a relative concept with no "objective" standard as such. Therefore, when I say that bands like L7 "suck", it is of course a purely arbitrary opinion. When JP (bigstar@u.washington.edu) says that "my attitude" (whatever that's supposed to mean) tired JP (and just about everyone else in JP's opinion) by the 10th grade, that's a subjective opinion also. Personally, I could make the same claim about anyone who likes Hole or L7. Hell! By the time I was in the 10th grade I was tired of "gutter rock" and musicians singing about the supposed-enormity of their sex organs, be they either male or female. And in regards to Linda's insinuation that I'm a sexist, she's wrong. No, I hate to admit it (as if), I don't care for L7! But then again, I'm not shedding any tears over the fact that G.G. Allin's dead either! I don't like "perverted" (this is of course an arbitrary distinction also) male musicians, so why should I like "perverted" female musicians? There's no double-standard in my "laundry list", so how about yours? Anyways, this whole discussion of personal preferences seems to be quite unsociological, so I apologize for the topic I chose to discuss in this excrutiatingly long message. I just felt that I should respond to the negative feedback that I received from my last message. And, remember, if you have any more negative feedback for me (or positive feedback - wouldn't that be a nice change?) send it to: PICKERIN@SSC.WISC.EDU Adios! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 10 15:07:47 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 10 Aug 93 14:20:13 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: "B. Elphick" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 09:13:18 +1200 To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: Research on heterosexual feminists Dear socgrad readers I am a Phd student in the Dept of Sociology at Massey University in New Zealand. My Phd topic is "Politicising the Private: Implications of feminism for women in heterosexual relationships". Basically I am interested in two things - firstly how feminists have conceptulised of heterosexuality as a political toll (ie a literature review looking at feminist debates post 1970's), and secondly I am interested in talking with women about being feminist and being in heterosexual relationships. Is anyone else working in this area? If so. please make contact with me. E-mail number B.Elphick@massey.ac.nz From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 10 17:19:14 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 10 Aug 93 16:23:57 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 16:23:57 -0700 From: @EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU:SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU Tue, 10 Aug 93 22:17:59 GMT sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 10 Aug 93 13:51:11 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgr Apparently-To: ad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 15:02:45 -0500 From: pickerin%ssc.wisc.edu%UCSD.EDU%Sdsc.bitnet@emuvm1.cc.emory.edu To: "socgrad%ucsd.edu"%ssc.wisc.edu%UCSD.EDU%Sdsc.bitnet@emuvm1.cc.emory.edu Subject: laundry lists,etc.,etc.,etc! Hi, I have stayed out of the music discussion. But I feel the need to respond to something posted today. But first, an anecdote. When I was in college, a new person in town asked my friend "Do you like cool music?" My friend replied "No, I like music that sucks." Pickering writes "Therefore to rely solely on 'objective' P>and logical explanations as to why people like the music that they do, P>there's going to be a lot going on that you might miss...Since music is P>such a visceral art form, often people simply like something because P>'it rules' or dislike it because 'it sucks.' P>Sure,there are countless other factors that go into the construction of P>individual preferences, but in the case of music (and this is what my P>subjective insight tells me)there is a great deal going on that logical P>explanations cannot account for. Musical preference is more or less a P>relative concept with no 'objective' standard as such." Look, this is what sociology is all about. None of us, whether we study unions or community organizations or churches or whatever, would disagree with the argument "there is a great deal going on that logical explanations cannot account for" (without going into definitions for logical, of course.) By that I mean,don't think music is so special. All any of us are trying to do is help illuminate to some extent why certain things occur inthe ways that they do. We try to find patterns, see if they help make sense of things. We don't claim to completely understand a set of events based on "logical explanations." Let's leave that to the economists (it's a joke!). Peace, Joya Misra P.S. You guys are certainly welcome to my presentation, but it conflicts with the big Soc of Music roundtable, so... From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 10 17:40:43 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 10 Aug 93 16:41:30 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 18:12:50 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: muzak laundry lists PICKERIN SEZ: ......if I remember correctly, the "muzak" discussion of awhile back centered around sociological explanations of what drew certain individuals into certain "scenes" and what these people found to be attractive about the music, etc. ............As we all know, most people are not sociologists, nor do they think like sociologists. Therefore to rely solely on "objective" and logical explanations as to why people like the music that they do, there's going to be a lot going on that you might miss. A logical person knows that logic only goes so far, especially when the discussion turns to issues like music, love, spirituality, etc. Since music is such a visceral art form, often people simply like something because "it rules" or dislike it because "it sucks." LINDA SEZ: But this IS a mailing list for sociologists, so it would seem to be reasonable to conclude that most people on this list think more like a sociologist than like a musician or a music fan or many other statuses. Of course, one of the failings of "traditional" sociology (especially that rational choice perspective) is that logic is not always the basis of people's thoughts or actions! In "Outsiders" Becker gives an excellent description of how jazz musicians learn what "swings" and what doesn't. I think that people learn what "rules" and what "sucks" in a similar manner. That is, a person develops an aesthetic based on interaction with others and their aesthetic judgements. As Becker points out, what "swings" [and therefore what "sucks"] is NOT usually spelled out explicitly. It's a "feel," it's emotional and phenomenological. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's NOT sociological. PICKERIN SEZ: ..... Musical preference is more or less a relative concept with no "objective" standard as such. Therefore, when I say that bands like L7 "suck", it is of course a purely arbitrary opinion. LINDA SEZ: Well, maybe it's arbitrary, but I wouldn't say that it's RANDOM. People aren't equally likely to develop any possible set of aesthetic values, so I think that it IS appropriate for sociologists to concern themselves with patterns in musical tastes..... PICKERIN SEZ: ....And in regards to Linda's insinuation that I'm a sexist, she's wrong. I don't like "perverted" ...... male musicians, so why should I like "perverted" female musicians? There's no double-standard in my "laundry list", so how about yours? LINDA SEZ: Egad! I didn't mean to insinuate that YOU are a sexist. I meant to insinuate that your aesthetic standards MAY BE (unintentionally) defined in a sexist manner. An aesthetic standard which is rooted in the last twenty or so years of rock criticism (largely sexist) and in interactions with peers (in your case, probably mostly male) is pretty likely to be fairly androcentric. I was just picking on you by pointing out what I thought was a coincidence: you listed all-male bands as "ruling" and all-female bands as "sucking". ...... I'll leave the rest to private e-mail, cause I'll bet all this "marginal" music blathering is boring the "core" sociologists to death! Linda "never denied that her own laundry list could be considered sexist in MANY ways!" Andes u35455@uicvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Aug 11 06:24:42 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 11 Aug 93 05:49:05 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 08:06:34 EST From: Steve Harvey To: socgrad@ucsd.edu A side note: Linda sez: "one of the problems with 'traditional' sociology (esp- ecially that rational choice perspective) is that people do not always think and act in a logical fashion." 1) RC can hardly be called "traditional" sociol- ogy, since the latter arose with a decidedly collectivist orientation (e.g., Marx, Weber, Durkheim, Parsons...) and the former is based on methodological individualism. RC is a reintegration of economic reasoning (purposive actors) and sociological reasoning (collective behavior), in response to the function- alism permeating most of sociology (including most Marxist analyses) (see Elst- er, Coleman). 2) RC does not assume that people think and act in a logical fashion. Most (though not all) strands of RC assume that people act AS IF they were logically thinking things out, because they rely on socially learned heur- istics which have developed over time as a repertoire of tools with which to deal with life's contingencies. Even emotional outbursts can be (and have been -see Robert Frank _Passions within Reason_, and articles by Jack Hirschleifer. Even Randall Collins dabbled in one rational choice analysis of emotions) mod- eled AS IF they were rational choices, because emotions serve as commitment mechanisms for collective action in the absence (or in support) of institution- al mechanisms. Anger, for instance, is a way of promising a sanction for uncoo- perative behavior. 3) As an individual who has followed a trajectory through Marxist political economy, critical theory, and postmodernism into a basically game-theoretic orientation; and as someone who reads broadly in other disciplin es; my main point, for what it's worth, is not that RC is the pinnacle of human thought, but rather that we, as sociologists, have not been so impressively successful in developing a coherent analysis of social phenomena that any of us has a right to be smug. Furthermore, while critical analysis is a valuable tool, one of the greatest follies we engage in is to dismiss whole forms of an- alysis with a casual back-flip of the hand. There are many subtle ideas that come from many different starting points. Few of us are so brilliant that our casual critiques are truly well-conceived or well-informed. We would all bene- fit from a little more humility, and from a willingness to explore ideas that at first glance seem counterintuitive or go against our ideological commit- ments. Well, that's my two-cents! Now, I'll just slip back into my silent monitor- ing of the list.... -steve. harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Aug 12 11:31:55 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 12 Aug 93 10:02:58 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.930812125536.1408; 12 Aug 93 13:01:29 +500 To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From: "dan the man" Date: 12 Aug 93 12:55:35 EDT Subject: writing practice... dear muzakers, doesn't anyone say anything in 25 words or less anymore? signed, dan "exhausted from using my delete key" schubert From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Aug 27 15:56:08 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 27 Aug 93 15:27:22 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 18:03:14 EDT From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: JOB POSTING To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi socgrad-ers, Hope everyone had as nice a time as I did in Miami. One of the profs in my department asked me to post this job opening as a research assoc. to the list. If you're looking for a number-crunching job in the Boston area, this might be the job for you. Best wishes, joya The Multi-City Study of Urban Inequality is a Russell Sage Foundation/ Ford Foundation headed consortium of social scientists conducting empirical studies of three interrelated and fundamental aspects of urban inequality: labor markets, residentialsegregation, and race and ethnic attitudes. The initial efforts of this group have resulted in the design and execution of sample surveys with personal interviewing of residents in Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, and Los Angeles. Interviews are also being conducted with respondents' employers. The MCSUI seeks to employ a research associate for 12 months, beginning October 1, 1993, toproduce datasets which will allow for cross-city analysis by the MCSUI team. The research associate will be housed at the University of Massachusetts-Boston. Qualified applicants should submit a letter of interest, resume, and names and telephone numbers of three references by September 17, 1993 to: Dr. Michael Massagli Center for Survey Research University of Massachusetts 100 Morrissey Boulevard Boston, MA 02125-3393 JOB DESCRIPTION Official Title: Staff Assistant Functional Title: Research Associate General Statement of Duties:Work with principal investigators toprocess household and employer surveys from Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, and Los Angeles, and geography-based data from the Census and similar data sources to construct a complete multi-city dataset and documentation for the Multi-City Study of Urban Inequality. Supervision Received: Expected to carry out responsibilites with general supervision from Principal Investigators. Supervision Exercised: May be expected to provide task-oriented supervision toother project staff in the areas of data management, variable construction, documentation, table preparation, and drafting of reports. Examples of Duties: 1. Tomake household data from Los Angeles, Detroit, Atlanta, and Boston uniform and clean, and clearly documented in a codebook that facilitates cross-city analysis by a multi-disciplinary team of investigators, including demographers, economists, geographers, historians, and sociologists. 2. To perform the same tasks on telephone interviews obtained from additional household members in Detroit and Boston, and from employers in the four cities. 3. To add geography based data from Census Summary Tape Files and possibly other sources of interest to MVSUI members, including but not limited to the Census Transportation Planning Package. 4. To create other working subfiles as defined by the MCSUI Research Coordinating Committee, as time and resources permit; principle prodicts of this type will include geographic informaton system (GIS) files. 5. To ensure that all data elements can be linked across datasets, e.g. employee-employer links. 6. To prepare and give a workshop for MCSUI research team members and their students on the use of these products. Qualifications 1. Advanced graduate work in social sciences, Ph.D. preferred 2. Extensive experience with data processing and analysis of large sample-survey datasets in networked-microcomputer and mainframe environment. 3. Expertise with word-processing, statistical,and GIS software 4. Demonstrated expertise with coding procedures for sample suvey interviews; demonstrated familiarity with code construction, variable creation, data cleaning, documentation, and codebook preparation. 5. Expertise with use of 1990 PUMS data from US Census 6. Experience with production of scholarly research papers 7. Experience in the provision of technical consulting to users of machine readable data 8. Ability to work with a multi-ethnic, multi-disciplinary team of researchers 9.Strong writing/communication skills From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Aug 28 15:20:02 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 28 Aug 93 14:41:21 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: raallahyari@ucdavis.edu Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 14:37:41 -0700 (PDT) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu unsub RAALLAHYARI@ucdavis.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Aug 30 10:43:19 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 30 Aug 93 10:00:15 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 5213; Mon, Date: 30 Aug 1993 11:54:42 CDT From: To: Please forward some information about how to subscribe to the network. We have followed past instructions, but have been unsuccessful. Thanks in advance. Dave Hunt From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Aug 31 11:49:30 1993 Return-Path: sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 31 Aug 93 10:51:39 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 12:45:48 CDT From: SH03000 To: Subject: Need Employment Hello, It is as simple as this ... "I need a job!" I am currently teaching a course to undergraduate students at Southern Illinois University - Edwardsville. I am seeking employment at a community college, preferably full-time. Please respond via this bulletin board or write to me at: Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville Sociology and Social Work Department Box 1455 c/o Mark D. Harris Edwardsville, Illinois 62026-1455 ... in sociological consciousness, Mark p.s. I hold a Master of Arts degree in Sociology. p.s.s. I am also interested in the American Indian way of life.