From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 1 09:33:45 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 1 Jul 93 09:07:08 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 12:08 EDT From: Candace.Lewis@MVS.UDEL.EDU To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: Many thanks Many hearty thanks to those who responded to my graduate program inquiry this week. Besides providing me information concerning specific programs, tips about admissions, GRE's, etc. were also much appreciated as well as enjoyable to read. While I simply do not have the time to correspond with each of you who communicated with me, please accept this rather general, generic thank you as a token of my appreciation. Thanks much! -_-Candace J. Lewis Candace.Lewis@MVS.UDEL.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 8 09:47:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 08:59:03 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 08 Jul 93 10:54:12 CDT From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: A SOCILOGICAL QUESTION To: Socgrad list Recently, what I see on the list is "...Who is going to ASA." Its great that people are getting together through the list - E-mail is a great forum. My "SOCIOLOGICAL QUESION" -- Who (what group of individuals) would you feel could address the question of "What makes a good university or college." Some answers I've already thought of, and seen in articles - Deans of colleges, admision offices, students, parents, professors What do you (socgradders) think? Sorry for the spelling, my editor blows -- SKEE (University of North Dakota From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 8 13:08:12 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 10:23:13 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 10:19:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: re:A SOCIOLOGICAL QUESTION To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Obviously the best judge of sociology departments will be someone who knows what sociology departments ought to be accomplishing, and has a good measure of how well various departments actually perform relative to that criterion. I can't think of anyone who can do either of these things. Bob Duniway duniway@u.washington.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 8 13:48:13 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 12:57:24 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 15:42:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Subject: Kloskey's "SOCIOLOGICAL QUESTION" To: socgrad On 8 July SKEE wrote: ...My "SOCIOLOGICAL QUESION" -- Who (what group of individuals) would you feel ...could address the question of "What makes a good university or college." ...Some answers I've already thought of, and seen in articles - ... Deans of colleges, admision offices, students, parents, professors DJR responds: Not fair, you ask a question that is close to my heart on a day as hot as this one. It is 90F INSIDE my office and my fingers keep slipping off the keys due to sweat -- yech! So, a brief, preliminary response. My thinking is that what might be termed categorical/democratic approaches aren't the right one here. Anyone could address the question, but that doesn't mean that "the" answer will be arrived at by letting them. This makes me answer your question with some questions. To wit, do you mean who probably has tried to say what makes a good college? Or who, if there is an answer would be a likely source? Or who should have the authority to answer the question? Or which category's "standards" or criteria are the most relevant? Note that I'm not hinting at the "what do you mean by good?" critique here. That's rather obvious and boring in some ways (I wonder if that statement will get some people talking.) and not necessarily all that sociological (and you did say it was a sociological question). Well, more later, perhaps, but that is all I have wind for (self-deprecation intentional) at the momemt. Cheers, DJR +===========================================================================+ | Dan Ryan danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu | | 32 Pearl St. | | New Haven, CT 06511 | | It's better to be wrong than vague. | | -- A.S. | +===========================================================================+ From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 8 13:51:29 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 13:12:22 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 13:12:22 -0700 From: @EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU:SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU Thu, 8 Jul 93 16:59:29 GMT sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 08:59:03 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgra Apparently-To: d-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 08 Jul 93 10:54:12 CDT From: KLOSKY%VM1.NoDak.EDU%UCSD.EDU%Sdsc.bitnet@emuvm1.cc.emory.edu Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: A SOCILOGICAL QUESTION To: socgrad%UCSD.EDU%Sdsc.bitnet@emuvm1.cc.emory.edu (Socgrad list) I guess one thing that's imperative for us sociologists is defining our terms. So when we ask a question like "What makes a good university" we first need to define what we mean by "good" and even "university or college" (do the researchers want to focus on 4 year colleges, technical colleges, etc.). I think to find who can best address this question, you need to define what you mean by good. If you think of "good" in terms of weekly outdoor band parties, you can be sure that students and community members will have different perspectives on this issue. If you think of"good"in terms of scholastic achievement, students and faculty may have differing opinions. Knowing who to ask is directly related to what you're asking. And then again, maybe I've been working too hard today. Joya ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My "SOCIOLOGICAL QUESION" -- Who (what group of individuals) would you feel could address the question of "What makes a good university or college." Some answers I've already thought of, and seen in articles - Deans of colleges, admision offices, students, parents, professors What do you (socgradders) think? Sorry for the spelling, my editor blows -- SKEE (University of North Dakota  A SOCILOGICAL QUESTION From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 8 14:00:09 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 13:33:11 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 13:15:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Dean Barry Subject: a sociological question To: socgrad@ucsd.edu As an undergrad, I tried to get the "straight stuff" on the best sociology departments from professors and grad students I knew. Not an easy exercise! I found that many profs wouldn't say anything negative about another department because they don't want to burn bridges. Another aspect is that all soc. departments have strengths and weaknesses, and few (if any) cover all the bases. For better or worse, the profession seems to be getting more particularistic, and thus getting an opinion on a "good" sociology department has to be taken with a grain of salt. Cheers, Dean Barry University of British Columbia From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 8 15:10:36 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 8 Jul 93 14:43:47 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 08 Jul 93 16:14:47 EDT From: Baubb Subject: RE: SKEES Q To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Skee, Is it "What makes a good university or school" or, "What makes a university or school good? (Important distinction here) Also, "Who makes a good university or school?" "Who makes a universtity or school good?" "Whom does a good university or school makes?" and "Whom does a university or school make good?" Yes, I'm studying for an orgs comp. Bob G. U of DE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 9 07:12:49 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 9 Jul 93 06:23:57 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: frankdj@leland.Stanford.EDU Subject: the question To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 6:23:56 PDT What remarkable equivocating! No one will answer the question. All we get is a lot of throat clearing and rumination (online definition: "to chew repeatedly for an extended period"). No wonder we don't get invited to McNeill-Lehrer. Are we unable to provide the straight dope? Must all sociologically-acceptable answers be burdened with 1000 qualifications? David F. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 9 09:37:08 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 9 Jul 93 08:44:58 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 11:16:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Subject: Questions about the question -- doing public discourse... To: socgrad At the risk of appearing to jump on Mr. David F. I will take his recent note as an opportunity to mouth off (finger off?) about one of my bee-in-the-bonnet issues. Thanks, David, for the springboard -- no harm meant. On Fri, 9 Jul 93 6:23:56 PDT David F. wrote some comments about the first several responses to the question about good colleges and who is qualified to speculate thereon. Some comments on these comments follow. Now before anyone gets bent out of shape about commenting in response to comments, let me state at the outset that I mean these to be attempts at that lost (in the US, at least) genre called CONVERSATION. DF:What remarkable equivocating! No one will answer the question.... DR:True enough, no one gave a one sentence answer. But then, the question was open to a lot of different interpretations -- there is something to be said for clarifying how one interprets a question as a preface to answering it. If there is anything missing here, it is a response from the original questioner addressing the queries people have raised. Some may be irrelevant -- s/he can say so (and maybe even why!), others merit an answer. DF:No wonder we don't get invited to McNeill-Lehrer. DR:M-L may be the best thing going as far as news programs go in the US, but I hope we aren't suggesting that being deemed worthy of being a media commentator is the proper standard for intellectual worthwhileness. DF:Are we unable to provide the straight dope? DR:Probably not in sound-bite sized chunks in response to fuzzy questions. But then, that's probably a virtue, not a vice. So we'll never be famous -- there are other rewards in life. DF:Must all sociologically-acceptable answers be burdened with 1000 qualifications? DR:I must respond with a plea for on-going conversation -- that's a moving together toward the truth if my rudimentary Latin serves me correctly. This is not really meant to be a smart-assed response to David F. I'd like to think of it, rather, as an attempt at a whimper/plea in support of practicing public discourse as it might be rather than recapitulating the generally in vogue abuses of that concept. So, Mr/Ms original questioner -- your turn! Too much ranting? Apologies if it ends up reading that way. It's really hot here today! -- Dan in New Heaven not! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 9 12:36:34 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 9 Jul 93 10:39:54 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Fri, 9 Jul 93 17:39:52 GMT Date: Fri, 09 Jul 93 13:06:58 EST From: Jon Subject: Quuestions about questions questioning questioners To: You guys This is all starting to resemble the pondermatic in Douglas Adams five part Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy trilogy. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Jul 10 14:14:09 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 10 Jul 93 13:54:27 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 16:55:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SMITHBK@bcvax1.bc.edu Subject: Qualitative researchers To: socgrad@ucsd.edu I am currently doing a study on the use of microcomputers in qualitative research, particularly the use of programs such as The Ethnograph and HyperRESEARCH (developed here at BC) on the research process and experience itself. If you are interested in being interviewed for a half-hour to an hour about your own experience, please let me know. Interviews can be done over the phone. Also, I will be at ASA and can meet with you there. I would like to talk with any qualitative researcher along the spectrum from just considering using a computer to being completely facile and creative in its use. Thanks. Bev Smith Sociology Dept. Boston College Internet: smithbk@bcvms.bc.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 12 14:30:38 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 12 Jul 93 12:10:21 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 13:46:26 CDT From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: More from SKEE To: Socgrad list Sorry for the break (2 messages), but a faculty member needed some attention. To start, the overall impression seems good, though a lot of you have an issue with the question within the question. What I wanted to know was "Who should be asked ...." A great deal was been clarified for me in terms of the question that will be asked, even though the basic issue I want to look at is still "What makes a good school?" Some have said my question is fuzzy, and I agree greatly. What is meant by "GOOD" is certainly an issue. What is meant by school is much easier. It could be any "academic unit." I see this study has being able to be replicated on other units easily. I will confine myself to PhD granting sociology departments I imagine. On a more general level, I think some people might write to impress, instead of writting to inform. I am not saying this applies to any specific socgraders, but I do feel that some scholars fall prey to this enemy of intellect. I am simply a graduate student in North Dakota trying to get by, and could really give a rat's butt how I sound when I write. My goal is not a grammatically perfect (or even close) paper. I would much rather spell thing incorrectly, and make a point then spell meaningless statements correctly. (this is not to say I try to mispell, I just don't die when someone spells something wrong, or uses the wrong tense in a paper. Critical thinking is much more important, and seen less oftern. Babble, Babble, Babble thanks to everyone for the comments, keep them coming, SKEE, University of North Dakota. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 12 14:31:35 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 12 Jul 93 11:36:53 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 12:57:00 CDT From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: questioner responds To: Socgrad list I couldn't believe the # of messgs I got from my question, it was great to hear from so many people (socgraders). I will respond to most of what people said, and then have a more general directed response after that. I am sorry if I get people's names wrong, since not everyone signs what they send to the list. I am also not sure which responses came to me, and which came from the list, so forgive me if I talk about something no one else has seen. TIM -- Tim talks about people having different prespectives from which to address the question. I think this is a very valid point, and relavent to what it is I am doing. The reason that I posed the question was to see what socgraders thought was the most interesting, or relavent prespective. Since I am doing this for my thesis (hopefully), I can't address everyone's point of view. DAN -- Dan talks about the same issue, that everyone could answer the question, and the interesting part is WHO's criteria should be used. I agree with the idea of using the "Ideal" setting, instead of what actually happens in terms of a discussion. I realize that by focusing on only one prespective I am only looking at part of the elephant, and so the picture I hope to get will be bias. JOYA -- States very clearly that Who should be asked is related to the question and so discussion about the question is not irrelavent. But, if we assume the question to be valid (which could be stretching it), then the issue IS who do we ask. Of course, an understanding of the question is differental based on respondents. DEAN BARRY -- The issue Dean raises is that there is specialization within the field, and genrealization is difficult. True, but the same can be said of any generalization. Should I ask the question "What makes a good rural sociology department in the Northeast?" How about "What makes a good small, private, urban based, research oriented sociology department?" If I make the question too focused it no longer is sociological I feel. BOB G -- Bob helped me to understand the question I wanted to ask to respondents better, and I do feel I have asked the right one (from the choices he provided). But, who should be asked? Still the issue. MISSOURI -- I don't know who this is, since they didn't sign it. They raise, and clarify the issue of prespectives. Profs and adminastrators treat the university as a place of employment and learning, while students treat it as a place of learning first, and employment second. If you told a prof they won't be paid, they'd leave. If you told a student they couldn't take classes, they won't do work-study jobs. DAVID F -- Excellent point. Very few (MISSOURI and TIM) actually give a clear, simple answer. This is not to say the others weren't helpful, since they did help a great deal. It is not to say I value simple answers more than complicated ones. It was, in my mind, true though, that some people took a broad focus on the question, and some a narrow one. I also have to say that for his comments, David didn't answer the question either. DAN -- Though he qualifies it, says that people who want simple answers are killing conversation. I also agree with this point. (seems confusing doesn't it?). Conversation over the issue is actually what I wanted from the list, and so ANY responses I get are good in terms of making my think about the project. If someone says something off base, I need to be able to address it anyway, in saying that it is off base. I (and others) will never be able to have a full answer to every question about my paper. One of the finer points of education is to know, and admit, what we don't know. ANDREW -- I think andrew has a lot to offer to the discussion, being familiar with the lit, and would ask for a longer response from him (personal or list). JEPTEIN - What is the "pondermatic"? I have read Doug's work, and don't remember with invention. I have to take a break, I'll write the general stuff in a few mintues. SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 13 12:44:54 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 13 Jul 93 11:27:36 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 14:11:46 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: The Skee queue To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Geez! who says academics can't be any fun? What a gas all this interchange is (though it strikes me a bit as lofty procrastinating, eh?) ANYway, just two cents worth: Two things are particularly notable in my depart- ment with regard to what makes a good school, regardless of the meaning of "good." (and isn't the audience you're writing for more important in defin- ing that than the definition of the word itself? Good for administrators, good for research or teaching oriented faculty etc.) #1. The staff -- those underpaid, overworked people who actually make a department or school function. #2. The physical facilities -- it should be obvious from the sweaty finger's respondent among others that buildings can make a big difference in people's experience of a place. So, if you're thinking of a kind of report card, the staff would be a good resource in discovering how well or poorly the physical and logistical aspects of a school's environment operate. So there, I've answered the question and asked a question. Hopefully I've fill ed the bill as far as all that political debate went ;) ::sigh:: I do love a good argument. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 13 15:32:07 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 13 Jul 93 13:41:39 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: current discussion To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 16:41:24 -0500 (EDT) Hi, I like the idea of generating discussion but I'm with Dan about the equivocating nature of the discussion of what makes a "good" school. Ok, so "good" is a subjective evaluation that is defined as a function of one's perspective - isn't that a given in the sociological perspective - I assume most of us aren't philosophers, although some people are sounding a lot like philosophers - I don't mean that half as insulting as it sounds, just that the assumption that we're talking about normative definitions ought to be just that - an assumption, given we're sociologists. So assuming the question is what makes a good school from a prospective graduate students perspective, couldn't we define the following dimensions as important (no order of importance is intended): 1. Funding 2. Calibre and reputation of faculty 3. Availability of department resources - office space, computers, etc. 4. Geographic location - (right now I wish I'd gone to graduate school in Anchorage, Alaska) 5. Social solidarity and morale of graduate student population 6. Degree of opportunity to work with well-reputed faculty in one's area of specialization 7. Teaching Opportunities 8. Availability of good bookstores and bars in geographic location (just kidding). I'm not intending to kill this issue, but while we're raising issues for discussion, my choice would be: What can sociologist do to raise the profile of sociology and to ameliorate the low opinion with which sociology is generally regarded by the general public? Because I work in the area of stress and mental health and am writing my dissertation about the extent to which the nature and quality of women's roles contributes to their elevated rates of distress, I believe that the work of sociologists in this area has important policy and public health ramifications, however I am often dismayed by the way in which sociological studies are presented on science programs and in news reports. I don't think I really need to elaborate because I imagine most people have a sense of what I'm on about. So, anyone got an opinion? The other issue I would love to hear about is what people think about the imminent health care reform proposals in the US. I'm interested in health care policy but haven't really kept up with new developments - except from reading US papers - I thought the report from the commission was due pretty soon, is hasn't come out yet has it? Roasting in Toronto (and whining about it a lot), Sue Roxburgh From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 13 19:28:51 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 13 Jul 93 19:14:22 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: frankdj@leland.Stanford.EDU Subject: skee To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 19:14:21 PDT SKEE wants to know whom to ask. The consensus seems to be -- although nobody's said it explicitly -- that SKEE should ask several different groups of people. SKEE would then get a sense of what a good school is *from different structural positions.* Dietz, Stern and Rycroft did something like this in _Sociological Forum_ 4 (1989). They asked four different groups to define environmental conflict and found fairly dramatic differences. SKEE, presumably, would find equally dramatic differences. Cool in San Francisco (and willing to rub it in), David F. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 11:50:37 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 09:36:21 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:32:06 CDT From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: More from skee To: Socgrad list Okay, so I write to the list too much. But I find it so great to talk with others in this forum (socgrad). JYFJ at cornell provided me with a focus I never would have thought of, the staff, and the physical quality of the school. I have to admit that I am starting to forget who said what, but someone offered a list of things that graduate students value in a department. The whole focus of the project will hopefully be to not just come up with a list of what a few think makes a good school, and rate schools, but instead to get a systematic treatment by a large population as to what they think should be on the list. Again, thanks for all the help, keep it coming: Skee From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 12:23:12 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 11:00:38 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 13:37:47 EDT From: ligia Subject: ASA To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Hi - My name is Ligia, I am a graduate student at Yale University and I'm looki ng for a room mate for the ASA meeting. If you are also looking for someone to share a room with please contact me at TAVLIGA@YALEVM. Thanks. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 14:05:04 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 12:59:11 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 14 Jul 93 19:59:02 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Wed, 14 Jul 1993 19:58 GMT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 15:40:11 EDT From: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: sue's question To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu I found sue's question regarding sociology's public image interesting. DOes the "the general public" hAVE SUCH A "low" opinion of sociology? And, to join in this latest game of defintions--what does "Low" opinion mean? Also, how do sue and others want the public to see us? maybe sue can clarify and describe her perception of the treatment of sociological studies on "science programs and in news reports." I ask these questions because i am curious how other students feel about our public and academic imaGE. It concerns me as well. I need clarification and home air conditioning in akron, ohio ---heather bulan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 16:49:32 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 15:21:17 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list by weber.ucsd.edu (8.3/UCSDGENERIC.4c) on ttyuf From: triley@weber.ucsd.edu (Tristan Riley) Subject: testing again To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 15:21:15 PDT From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 16:53:24 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 15:42:25 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: heather's question(s) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 18:42:18 -0500 (EDT) Hi, ok I'll clarify, although I don't know how controversial it is to assert that sociology is regarded as a jargonish, simple-minded discipline, rife with gross generalizations about social life that everybody already knows - ok so maybe I'm making a generalization myself, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling. Maybe I exaggerate the extent to which this is true since my undergraduate degree was in neuropsych and psychologists tend to think that sociology is complete rubbish - although I think this has changed somewhat, since the days (oh so long ago) when I was an undergrad. Just to follow through with this personal example, I came to sociology sort of later than most, not having an undergrad degree in the subject and having disliked the few courses I had taken. I went to grad school because I wanted to be a criminologist but realized slowly what a great discipline we're in! So speaking as one of the converted I wonder about sociologies PR job in presenting it's multiple perspectives and it's empirical findings - and I think sometimes it's inadequate. Maybe it's not enough mystification or is it too much? I wish I could provide you with a more specific example of a news report - a couple of years ago the results of a study of my supervisor's was written up in the paper and I just remember how distorted and poorly explained the whole thing was. Does this clarify things a bit, Heather? - maybe not. Ever hopeful and enjoying a brief respite from the heat wave, Sue Roxburgh From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 17:31:58 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 16:26:37 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 18:55:04 EDT From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: WHO CAN BEST JUDGE? To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Two points. After reading though all of the discussion about Skee's project, I must admit, I am frustrated because I still am not sure what the research question is. In the latest post, Skee says: >The whole focus of the project will hopefully be to not just come up with >a list of what a few think makes a good school, and rate schools, but >instead to get a systematic treatment by a large population as to what >they think should be on the list. So is the research question, "What criteria can be used to judge a good school" or is it "Who can best judge what makes a good school" or is it something else? Maybe this is a relatively old-fashioned question, or maybe we've already dealt with it, and I'm just in the twilight zone (or the heat index), but this project hasn't yet made complete sense to me because I do tend to think in terms of a pattern, and that pattern has not yet been satisfied. In terms of sociology & Sue's questions and Heather's questions, Heather asks DOes the "the general public" hAVE SUCH A "low" opinion of sociology? And, to join in this latest game of defintions--what does "Low" opinion mean? Also, how do sue and others want the public to see us? We all are probably aware of the "shut-downs" of sociology departments due to a perceived lack of importance in the curriculum, and the articles in major newmagazines and newspapers (including the Newsweek article) about sociology's demise. I know that there have been chair's meetings at the ASA which discuss this important topic, and there have been articles in "Footnotes" about it. But do these indications really suggest that the general public has a low opinion of us? Or is it just a matter of a biased sample? My impression is that the general public simply doesn't understand what it is sociologists can contribute. It's relatively clear what a historian or a political scientist or an economist or a psychologist or even an anthropologist studies. But what about sociologists? Society? What does that mean? People like Coleman (see earlier SOCGRAD discussion), W.J. Wilson, Skocpol, etc. have urged sociologists to make the policy implications of our work clear, and so we must. But how do we do this? How do we approach the world we study with our work in hand and claim that it is important? Finally, at dinner recently a friend in English said in college his sociology professor said that sociology was the only major for you if you planned on still getting stoned while in college. Any comments? Joya Misra From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 19:59:28 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 19:41:59 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 22:19:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Subject: All about sociology... To: socgrad Greetings, Pals -- Joya's note provokes mostly a "right-on" from me, but as it contains a call for comments or two, here I go... JM: We all are probably aware of the "shut-downs" of sociology departments JM: due to a perceived lack of importance in the curriculum, As many of you may know, Yale was one of those departments. We've come through it more or less ok -- just hired three new junior faculty -- but mostly because the brilliant administrators who targeted sociology all resigned. Paul DiMaggio gave an interesting assessment of how it all happened at ASA last year -- copies, I think, are still available. He argued mostly that it was an organizational occurrence as opposed to an anti-sociology move per se, so those who want to find purely irrational enemies might not like it. JM: My impression is that the general public simply doesn't understand JM: what it is sociologists can contribute. I agree with that, but I also find that a lot of what sociologists do is kinda pointless. It's a hard field, I think, to do something that is really worthwhile. JM: It's relatively clear what a historian or a political scientist or an JM: economist or a psychologist or even an anthropologist studies. But what JM: about sociologists? Society? What does that mean? Pretty important question, not easy to answer, too often taken for granted and thought to be no longer worth talking about. I wonder, sometimes, whether I could do a better job at describing the field than your average worthless textbook. And when I realize that I'm not certain I could, I worry a little. JM: People like Coleman (see earlier SOCGRAD discussion), W.J. Wilson, JM: Skocpol, etc. have urged sociologists to make the policy implications of JM: our work clear, and so we must. But how do we do this? How do we approach JM: the world we study with our work in hand and claim that it is important? Yes, indeed. Prerequisite: it has to be important. Not just publishable. One thing I've been working on recently is how to get beyond explaining (structurally, for the most part) why things don't work, and instead, showing how, given the structural constraints, things might work better. Real concrete hows -- I try to think about it like a bridge designer: what kind of suggestions can I make that I'd be willing to drive across? JM: Finally, at dinner recently a friend in English said in college his JM: sociology professor said that sociology was the only major for you if you JM: planned on still getting stoned while in college. Any comments? Eegads. Of course, if you build courses and seminars with morons in mind, they will come. Anyway, a little ranting and raving on this cooler than it's been for awhile Wednesday night. Sans nuages, Dan +===========================================================================+ | Dan Ryan danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu | | 32 Pearl St. | | New Haven, CT 06511 | | It's better to be wrong than vague. | | -- A.S. | +===========================================================================+ From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 20:21:09 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 20:13:47 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 20:02:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. Henderson" Subject: need a room at the ASA meeting? To: socgrad@ucsd.edu howdy sociology graduate students -- Anyone out there going to the ASA annual meeting in August in Miami Florida?? Need a room the nights of August 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th? (Friday night through Monday night). If so, then today is your lucky day. I'd like to share my deluxe, luxurious "double" accommodations at the Fountainbleu (the hotel where the convention will be based) with 3 other people, so the final cost is about $24 per person per night. (The room rate is $96 per night). I already have one other person sharing this room, so there are TWO SPOTS LEFT !!! HURRY! OFFER ENDS SOON! So far, everyone is female and nobody smokes. Don't care what your gender is, really, but if it ends up 3 females and 1 male then someone will have to sleep in a bed (queen-sized) with a boy! Eeew! The smoking part, though, is a no-no for everyone. It's a non-smoking room. Please reply to my email address and not to this list (since I'm just visiting here and don't normally read the messages). Thanks. Rebecca Henderson rsh@u.washington.edu Dept of Sociology University of Washington From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 14 23:46:01 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 14 Jul 93 23:25:56 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 02:27:26 -0400 (EDT) From: SMITHBK@bcvax1.bc.edu Subject: Historical perspective on sociology To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Hi, everyone, I've tried to stay out of this discussion on the merits and demerits of sociology and sent just one message to Heather-who-needs-air-conditioning, but this has become irresistable at 1:30 am. And it beats transcribing all those interviews.... I'm probably the oldest sociology student on this network, so I'd like to offer a little irrelevant historical perspective. I don't see sociology as being viewed with contempt or considered obscure or a "gut" major at all, either in the local or the national media, unless we in Boston really *are* more enlightened than the rest of the world, which I seriously doubt. I majored in experimental psych and minored in sociology in the 1960s, and as I recall, at that time -- mid-60s, before everything went to hell, sociology *was* viewed as irrelevant, since nothing much was happening, no one saw what was coming, and the Great Books of the day were The Lonely Crowd, The Organization Man, and Middletown. (It's weird to have the stuff that was contemporary then be considered classics now.) Sociology was so tied up with anthropology and relativism that nobody had much respect for it. When the Civil Rights movement, the first wave of the Women's movement, and all the shooting had died down, after a while it seems, to me at least, that people began to notice that sociologists could see patterns that the poli sci people, the ed people, and the great brains in government and the military hadn't seen and still weren't seeing. The psychologists were still either imprinting geese to follow them, conditioning pigeons (I did that!), or encouraging students to give electric shocks to one another (sorry, Yale), or generalizing from Harlow's monkeys to infant deprivation of maternal love so that women should decide to stay home with their kids and become patients for the clinical psychologists. (Were any of you old enough to remember any of this?) Seems to me, again, and I'll re-emphasize that this is only a personal perspective, that eventually someone realized that a lot of what the soc folks were saying about would happen within various spheres of society actually did happen, and that maybe sociology should be taken seriously. I'm not advocating that prediction should be the goal -- just the opposite. I think that our job as sociologists -- yes, students of society, which is any two or more people -- is TO ASK THE QUESTIONS, not to answer them. The meaning is in the asking, the searching, the re-searching. The worst thing we can do is to decide what's important and then provide the answers. Who decides what's important? (And you won't catch me ANSWERING that one!) If anyone understands what I'm driving at here, please let me know. I always seem to see things from a different angle than most, which makes seminars a truly bizarre experience. And I did NOT do drugs in the 60s or the 70s or the 80s or the 90s! But it should be obvious why I'm doing qualitative research now, at least. I'd love to hear from any fellow ancients (i.e., those who graduated between 1963 and 1967). And just to demonstrate that I did NOT stay home with the kid and recently re-emerge from some fantasy world, I'll confess that I also have an MCP degree and an MBA and have worked for 23 years. I wouldn't be getting a PhD in sociology if I didn't think it was relevant, comprehensible, and (gasp!) fun. Thanks for "listening." Bev Smith Boston College Internet: smithbk@bcvms.bc.edu P.S. Please don't reply-to the whole network if you only want to send a message to me. On the other hand, what you have to say may be worth letting everyone read it, so what the heck...a little public humiliation never hurt anyone. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 15 09:42:20 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 15 Jul 93 08:39:27 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 11:22:16 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: status, achievement and perception To: socgrad@ucsd.edu I had a discussion with several folks this year about just the question sweaty sue raised. The gist of what I found was that most people find all social science rather vague and inaccurate (or even trivial), but that people who study it were held in very high regard. part of the problem may be, in my mind, that given all our hard work and deep thought, we may expect to attain the same prestige that those ol' doctors and lawyers have in our society (and did you ever notice the bad rap they get?). But such folks are in the service sector largely, and people have contact with them on a regular basis -- even over the media (ever see an action series in- volving a D.A., Chief of Police and a sociologist?) There is also a tendency among the social science disciplines to treat each- other's work lightly. How many sociologists have you heard slam economists? Again, economists tend to be in the limelight more because of their stupid stock market projections and budget balancing influences. It may be to our benefit that most sociology goes to hearings and committees who are trying to set up or reform policy. Congress knows what sociology is. Just because we seldom make the popular press, doesn't mean what we're doing is worthless. In other words, I think we discredit ourselves too much. I do believe there's a need to make our work more accessible (anyone see the Atlantic "Dan Quayle Was Right" issue?) -- a little journalistic training wouldn't hurt any of us. Dan, this is my fav quote -- To overcome the inertia of the intellect, it is sometimes more important that a new idea be interesting than that it be correct. -- george homans *pamela From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 15 15:25:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 15 Jul 93 13:24:10 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Thu, 15 Jul 93 19:18:48 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Thu, 15 Jul 1993 18:46 GMT Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 14:46:33 EDT From: R2ELL%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu sub socgrad From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 15 15:25:59 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 15 Jul 93 14:03:19 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 13:40:33 EDT From: "Bob G." Subject: Sociology: In the pop To: socgrad@ucsd.edu "Swety" Sue and others have raised the question of how popularly accepted is sociology. One arguement suggests that it is seen negatively and is underattack and criticism. Another suggests that it well regarged as a framework to provide unique solutions to social problems. I suggest the following: the measurement of sociology by the degree of criticism should be a positive one. It suggests that sociology is encroaching other people's terf, i.e., it is growing or the environment is shrinking. While indeed the later is true (e.g., the Yale incident and others like it), the shortage of resources may result in conflictual interactions that may make sociology 1) more survivable (e.g., more adaptive and cohesive) 2) more competative, some of those who are in the feild to only "smoke reefers" may elect to go elsewere (Congress??) (the Pheonix effect: the increase in quality following a challange to core technology) 3) more respectable-- that is, survival will result in establishment. Of equal, if not importance, sociology is growing. Perhaps not in terms of size, but at least in poplar reference. In part, this is reflected in the recent media shift towards using sociologists as "experts." While before the media rarely noted sociology, I have seen at least one reference a week to sociology in the news over the last year. Moreover, they are now calling us sociologists rather than the anonomous "experts." Students, while not necessarly knowing what sociology is, accept us as an established part of the curriculum. Too, business schools have adopted our classes (e.g., orgs). There are a couple of points here, though. It has been noted on the net that media distorts sociology. Well, I hate to tell you, but they distort everybody-- physics to fine arts. (In fact, my experience with students taking journalism classes suggest that they are taught to do this-- never mind the facts, what's the story?). The point is they are taking notice of us and are calling us "experts" rather than "liberal reefer eaters". Teaching often must follow interests rather than lead it. Second, we must be carefull, we aren't alive and well. Nor are other academic fields-- especially those that are geared toward liberal education rather than applied education. We have yet to rise from the fire. In long, social science is still a fledging. While we have left the stages of infancy, our adolescence is full of insecurities, growth, and setbacks, but it is also marked by determination and energy. Bob G. U of DE. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 15 16:23:23 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 15 Jul 93 15:36:04 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: the discipline To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 17:36:03 CDT All of this talk about the status of sociology is timely. I am part of multi-disciplinary program which consists of sociologists, economists, developmental psychologists, and others interested in public policy. Everyone in the program has to take a few courses in each of these fields. The only complaint people had about these courses was that for those who had no prior exposure to sociology, taking grad. classes in soc. was very confusing. There were no general classes that could introduce grad. students to the discipline. As a result, two of us have decided to devise a core reading list for each discipline, with an emphasis on trying to find readings in sociology that could help the economists, et al., get a handle on the field. Any suggestions? Karen Haskin k-haskin@nwu.edu Dept. of Sociology Northwestern University From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 15 19:25:07 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 15 Jul 93 19:11:44 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 22:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Subject: Re: the discipline To: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu On Thu, 15 Jul 1993 khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu wrote: > All of this talk about the status of sociology is timely. ... > As a result, two of us have decided to devise a core reading list for each > discipline, with an emphasis on trying to find readings in sociology that > could help the economists, et al., get a handle on the field. > > Any suggestions? Here are three books I'd call efficient reads (high insight/effort ratio) for introducing folks to sociology: R. Collins _Sociological Insight: Intro to NonObvious Sociology_ C. W. Mills _Sociological Imagination_ E. Goffman _Interaction Ritual_ These aren't coherent intros or overviews (Collins comes closest) but then I'm not sure that sociology as a field is coherent enough to make an overview possible -- in the sense of getting a handle on the field. These are good examples of how to look at the world like a sociologist. I'll probably think of others in the shower tomorrow morning, but for now these are my nominations. Ciao, DJR From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 07:42:37 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 07:27:02 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:27:49 CST From: icc_drl@SHSU.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: References re the sociology of sociology Folks, To add to the list Dan suggested, I'd recommend two more: Alvin Gouldner's _The Coming Crisis of Western Sociology_; and Herman Schwendinger and Julia Schwendinger's _The Sociologists of the Chair A Radical Analysis of the Formative Years of North American Sociology 1883-1922_ Peace, Dennis From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 08:51:17 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 08:28:31 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:23:02 CDT From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: I back To: Socgrad list Okay, so the subject has changed, away from my project. This is not a bad thing though. The reason I started the discussion in the first place was because things seemed a little slow on SOCGRAD. Young person was I wrong!! (I wanted to say Boy, but thought it wouldn't be politically correct). To clarify my project for any interested. I am going to survey both graduate students and professors to find out what it is that they value, from their prespective, in a school. I am NOT going to rank schools, but instead will back up a step and find out what schools should be ranked on for the two different groups. All the talk on SOCGRAD helped to form this project, and so I think the individual who set up SOCGRAD will get a comment in my Aknowledgement section!!! Thanks, and comments are still welcome, and needed. SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 09:24:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 08:33:56 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 11:05:29 EDT From: "Bob G." Subject: Books To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Of the great suggestions so far, I definitely agree with the Collins book the most. It is very clear and concise. (He has another book too, Three Theories of Sociology or something like that which dovetales with it well.) I enjoyed James M. Henslin's Down to Earth Sociology: Introductory Readings. It has in it the peice by Mill's about The Sociological Imagination (at least my copy, 1985, does). I was down at a conference and the pub. is still revising it and printing it (Macmillan?). Also, Pontell's Social Deviance: Readings in Theory and Research give a good look over of important soc. concepts. Even though its a deviant book, you can get a real good understanding of the sociological view from this book. Some of the authors include Becker, G. Marx, Pfohl, Merton, Cloward and Ohlin, Durkheim, Cooley, Lemert, Goffman, Goode (Erich, of course) Sellin, Mills, Spitzer, Sykes and Matza, Sutherland, Glaser, Orcutt... As you can see, a varied field of experts in sociology. They should also look at some method issues, like Babbie's books, in order to "ground them." hope this was helpful Bob G. U of DE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 10:18:22 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 09:41:13 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 12:29:12 EDT From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: CORE SOCIOLOGY READINGS To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I'd like to second the readings on Dan and Dennis' lists, particularly Wright's _Sociological Imagination_. I'd also recommend a book that we usually think of just for Intro classes -- Berger's _Invitation to Sociology_. I wonder if ASA's teaching resource center may be able to give us some ideas. For example, I know that Ted Wagenaar has been teaching departments how to set up their curriculums, and has discussed the importance of a "capstone" course (like a senior seminar) which ensures that all sociology students grasp some of the major works in sociology. The teaching resource center may just have a booklet or syllabi set or list of works which would be useful in this endeavour. Best of luck to you Karen. It sounds like you're working on a very important and useful project. Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 11:12:25 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:44:37 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: frankdj@leland.Stanford.EDU Subject: readings To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:44:32 PDT I just got assigned to teach an Intro Soc course, so this core-texts discussion is useful to me. (1) A specific question: last year at the ASA meetings I heard Loic Wacquant give a riveting talk on boxing, which I think would work well in an intro course. Does anyone know if this is published? I've looked around without any luck. (2) A general point: our "core-texts" discussion in some ways eerily echoes the Great Books discussions -- lots of heterosexual European-American men. Ciao, David F. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 11:21:00 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:51:57 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: burton@leland.Stanford.EDU Subject: introducing sociology To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:51:53 PDT Everyone has suggested great books that sociologists love. But I don't think that they will convert many economists to the sociological perspective. I'm not even sure that these books make clear what sociology contributes and how it is different from economics. If the goal is to teach graduate students about where the disciplines intersect, I would turn to empirical sociological research that directly challenges fundamental economic principles. Some examples that immediately come to mind are Paula England's challenges to human capital theory, the Bielby and Bielby AJS article about effort, and the entire dual and segmented labor market literature. There are also a number of recent articles and books about economics and sociology -- Granovetter has a number of recent publications. If these aren't familiar, I could dig up citations. My general point is that we ought to be staking our claim more strongly and more aggressively and save the "warm fuzzy feel good books" for the converted. - Diane ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Diane Burton Sociology Department burton@leland.stanford.edu Stanford University (415) 725-0054 Stanford, CA 94305 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 13:32:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 12:52:38 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 15:42:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Ryan Subject: Don't let's get started... To: socgrad@ucsd.edu On Fri, 16 Jul 1993 David F. wrote: > echoes the Great Books discussions -- lots of heterosexual > European-American men. Well, maybe, but we don't need to echo the discussions themselves. A plea from me to take the discussion in the direction of Diane B.'s excellent comment (and not because she mentions a nonEuropean/nonmale). I submit that talking about works of sociology is not the same as talking about works of literature -- diversity and representation in terms of ascriptive characteristics really shouldn't be made central in selections of the former. Methinks so, anyhow. DJJRjr From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 16 23:54:32 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 16 Jul 93 23:49:32 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 23:06:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Berch Berberoglu Subject: Re: introducing sociology To: burton@leland.stanford.edu On Fri, 16 Jul 1993 Diane Burton burton@leland.Stanford.EDU wrote: > Everyone has suggested great books that sociologists love. But I > don't think that they will convert many economists to the sociological > perspective. > > I'm not even sure that these books make clear what sociology > contributes and how it is different from economics. If the goal is to > teach graduate students about where the disciplines intersect, I would > turn to empirical sociological research that directly challenges > fundamental economic principles. > > . . . I can't resist the temptation of announcing the 2nd edition of my CRITICAL PERSPECTIVES IN SOCIOLOGY: A READER, hot off the press (July 1993), which precisely attempts to bridge the gap between sociology and political economy by presenting the best of both disciplines from a variety of critical, left perspectives. The book covers social class, wealth and income inequality, poverty, gender, race, corporate structure, concentration of economic power, the state and politics, health care, urban social problems, aging and social policy, education, environmental crisis, imperialism and the Third World, and social movements, among others. The first edition of the book, which came out in 1991, sold out very quickly and all royalties from the sale of some 1,100 copies were donated to the journal CRITICAL SOCIOLOGY (Dept. of Sociology, Univ. of Oregon, Eugene, OR). A check for $1,340 has been sent in March and more $$ is on the way to this important progressive sociology journal. All royalties earned from the sale of the new 2nd edition of CRITICAL PERSPECTIVES IN SOCIOLOGY will also go to the journal. The book is an ideal companion to sociology texts in intro soc classes and provides a much needed critical view on social issues that intro students confront in a serious way perhaps for the first time in their educational experience. Those of you at "socgrad-land" who might be interested in giving this book a try in your intro soc or social problems classes that you teach may contact me directly and I'll send you more info (table of contents, etc.) as well as a free exam/desk copy if you think you will be able to use it, as exam copies are limited in number. On a related note, I would also like to mention my latest social theory book which also came out this year (February 1993): AN INTRODUCTION TO CLASSICAL AND CONTEMPORARY SOCIAL THEORY: A CRITICAL PERSPECTIVE (New York: General Hall), which I wrote specifically for intro soc students. It includes chapters on the works and ideas of Marx, Weber, Durkheim, Pareto, Mosca, Michels, Freud, Gramsci, Lenin, Kollontai, Du Bois, Frazier, Parsons, Merton, C. Wright Mills, Domhoff, Althusser, Poulantzas, Miliband, Trimberger, Block, Skocpol, Wallerstein, Therborn, and Szymanski. The book is written in clear and readable form free of excessive sociological jargon and introduces to beginning students some of the major figures in classical and contemporary social theory. If any of you are interested in this book as well, please contact me directly and I'll send you literature and perhaps a free copy of the book if you will seriously consider using it in your intro soc classes. I think both of these books are quite relevant to the original question posed on the relationship of sociology to other disciplines and the necessity of introducing sociological ideas and issues to friends and colleagues in other disciplines, such as economics, political science, history, and so on. Again, thanks for the opportunity to bring these two works to your attention; I just couldn't resist the challenge to bring them up to you on this valuable list. I look forward to hearing from you. Berch Berberoglu, Chair Department of Sociology University of Nevada, Reno Reno, NV 89557 Fax: (702) 784 1358 berchb@unssun.scs.unr.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Jul 18 17:01:43 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 18 Jul 93 16:34:57 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 19:33:05 EST From: Leslie Macchio Subject: interview To: Bev Smith If you're out there Bev Smith, send me a message. I can't seem to get a message to go through to your private e-mail address. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 19 13:47:38 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 19 Jul 93 11:53:02 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 14:35:20 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: Yes! Diane! To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Echos to Diane's suggestions along with one more -- if you care to diversify your reading list, Paula England also edited a fantastic book of academics writing feminist critiques of the various foundations of sociological theory. (Remember, all is not rational choice, only in the world of micro-econ) It includes discussions and critiques of work within the book and deals with such cornerstones as Marxism and Rational Choice. The Title is "Theory on Gender/Feminism on Theory" -Pamela From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 19 13:53:35 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 19 Jul 93 12:00:34 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 12:05:56 CDT From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: To Laura Miller To: Socgrad list I am just curious about if there is an archive of this list some where. I have been discarding the mailings as they come in, but now need to see some of them again. I don't know THAT much about computers, so if it is possible to get the files, could you give step by step instructions on how to do this? Thanks a lot, SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 19 14:06:52 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 19 Jul 93 11:52:59 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 14:23:46 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: More for the Reading list To: socgrad@ucsd.edu One of the best overviews of the Ideas behind sociology, the foundations of our approaches and an explanation of some of the divisions of framework and theory is Daniel Little's "Varieties of Social Explanation: An Introduction to the Philosophy of Social Science." This little 200 page text was the springboard for the sociological theories we investigated in my intro/grad-level theory course. I highly recommend it for economists and psychologists. By the way, I think it's great that you all are required to actually delve into the coursework of eachother's disciplines. I think it's irresponsible of us to be critisizing one another's endeavors when most of us have not set foot in the other's territory. Personally, I really like Econ and I minored in Psych as an undergrad. I don't however believe that rational choice, behaviorism and cognitive psych can explain society. Sociologist-to-the-core, --Pamela From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 20 23:01:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 20 Jul 93 22:24:01 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list by weber.ucsd.edu (8.3/UCSDGENERIC.4c) on ttyt5 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 22:24:00 -0700 From: lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu (Laura Miller) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: archived messages The other day Skee asked if there is an archive of Socgrad. While unfortunately there isn't an automated system archiving messages, I have been manually doing so. They're archived by date, which isn't of much help to someone who would like messages on particular subjects, but I'd be glad to send on back messages to anyone who gives me a specific date range. Cheers from San Diego where the weather's always perfect. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu LMILLER@UCSD.BITNET From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 21 02:44:22 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 21 Jul 93 02:13:56 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list by weber.ucsd.edu (8.3/UCSDGENERIC.4c) on tty2si6 From: triley@weber.ucsd.edu (Tristan Riley) Subject: Sociology of music To: socgrad@ucsd.edu (soc) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 2:13:54 PDT anybody out there into chatting a bit about soc. of music? i'm working on this paper, see... tristan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 21 06:25:05 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 21 Jul 93 05:38:04 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 21 Jul 93 12:38:04 GMT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 08:12:20 EST From: JOn Subject: Sociology of music To: "ya'll" To answer trisytens question I'll talk about this subject all day long. Where do we start? Essentiall texts? Subject matter? The ball is in your court Tristen. Jon Simmel, and Marillion, Rule From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 21 07:33:25 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 21 Jul 93 07:03:53 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:58:17 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: Soc of music Yo Tristan! I can rant on about music and sociology almost as much as Jon can.... Please, do tell us about this paper of yours'! Linda From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 21 09:33:23 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 21 Jul 93 08:40:33 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 21 Jul 93 15:40:33 GMT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 11:24:55 EST From: Jon Subject: Rock and Roll ain't noise pollution To: "Ya'll" Hey Tristin I'll talk about this subject all day. In fact I teach a class calledd the sociology of rock music at younstown state and even have a book coming out called Adolescents and their Music: If it's too loud you're too old. Garland Press, NY march release. It includes stuff by Wirnstein, Grossberg, Donna Gaines, Kotarba, Steve Groce Dan Dotter, Me (of course) and all kinds of cool stuff. What is your specific area of interest? Baudrillard Rocks (with a little help from Marillion) Jon From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 21 13:55:24 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 21 Jul 93 12:56:55 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: introducing the discipline To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 14:56:49 CDT Thanks to everyone for your suggestions for introducing the discipline to grad. students in other disciplines! I will continue taking any additional suggestions people may have. >From Chicago where summers are beautiful by the lake. With great appreciation, Karen Haskin Northwestern University k-haskin@nwu.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 22 06:26:26 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 22 Jul 93 05:06:21 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 08:06:48 EDT From: BMZ05829%UDELVM.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU Subject: name To: socgrad@ucsd.edu test From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 23 15:51:31 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 23 Jul 93 14:46:23 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: Henry Daniel Anaya Subject: more Sociology of Music To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 14:46:23 PDT To Tristan Riley, and all others interested in the Soc. of Music; this summer, I will be traveling with the group Anthrax, as my childhood friend is the new singer, and I was invited on the road with them. I think this could be a potentially rich source of observational data. I don't know if this is of interest to anyone, but I know how very different life on the road with rock bands can be. Anyone interested in discussing this? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Jul 25 14:38:43 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 25 Jul 93 13:27:02 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 16:26:15 EDT From: "Emilio L. Lombardi" Subject: Soc. of Music (Anthrax) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu I'd be interested, both as a sociologist and an Anthrax fan. t been From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 26 06:37:16 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 26 Jul 93 06:04:51 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 08:39:49 EDT From: BMZ05829%UDELVM.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Please unsub me from this network. The listserver fails to parse my correct address and does not accept any addresses that I manually put in. Thanks and sorry about going through the net. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 26 12:49:48 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 26 Jul 93 11:59:06 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list by weber.ucsd.edu (8.5/UCSDGENERIC.4c) on ttyt8 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 11:59:05 -0700 From: lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu (Laura Miller) To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: the perils of doing field work Following ASA, I'm going to spend a month in New York doing research for my dissertation on the distribution system in the publishing industry. I'll be staying out on Long Island, but of course, most of my interviews will be in Manhattan. It's occurred to me that I'm likely to find myself with long stretches of time between interviews with nowhere to go. So I'm wondering if the New Yorkers out there could suggest their favorite (air conditioned) places to hang out for a few hours, preferably near midtown, and even more preferably, without having to spend lots of money. Many thanks. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu LMILLER@UCSD.BITNET From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Jul 26 18:00:37 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:21:12 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: julianp@sfu.ca Subject: Philosophy and musak... To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:21:04 PDT HELP!!! I am currently updating a 3rd year undergraduate course in the Philosophy of Social Sciences, and would really really appreciate it if anyone could help me with some suggested reading. In particular, I am looking for: (a) A decent (and recent) overview of the major contenders in the field - e.g. Positivism, Popper and Kuhn, Interpretivism, Realism, Determinism vs. Free Will etc. (b) An eloquent (and hopefully recent) attack on/defence of (or pref. both) SOCIOBIOLOGY. (c) Something straightforward on recent `postmodernist' critiques of science, perhaps by Rorty or Lyotard. (d) A contemporary and forcefully argued defence of sociology in the face of current crises - multi-paradigmatic state, pomo attacks etc. etc. Many Many thanks in advance to anyone who can give me a hand here. Secondly, I'm all for a lively Baudrillardian abandonment into the ecstacy of contemporary happenin' pop music, but ANTHRAX??? MARILLION???? Where's SONIC YOUTH? FUGAZI? BIKINI KILL? HUGGY BEAR? PUBLIC ENEMY? And there's me thinking cultural studies theorists were hip!!! Byeee, Julian Prior S.F.U Vancouver, B.C. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 27 14:31:35 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 26 Jul 93 21:18:34 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 22:56:44 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: Muzak >Secondly, I'm all for a lively Baudrillardian abandonment into the ecstacy of >contemporary happenin' pop music, but ANTHRAX??? MARILLION???? Where's SONIC >YOUTH? FUGAZI? BIKINI KILL? HUGGY BEAR? PUBLIC ENEMY? And there's me thinking >cultural studies theorists were hip!!! >Julian Prior >S.F.U Vancouver, B.C. Well, judging by what I saw at the Popular Culture Assoc. meetings last spring, most cultural studies folks are definitely NOT very hip! (We had a hard time getting anybody to go see Fugazi with us....) Just for the record, at this very moment I'm finishing off a little feminist-themed compilation tape which includes Sonic Youth, Fugazi, Bikini Kill, BWP, Hole, Bratmobile, L7, Babes in Toyland, Liz Phair, Fire Party, Muffs, Poison Girls, Consolidated, 7 Year Bitch, Band of Susans, etc. etc. Is that HIP enough for ya??!! And although I will carefully sidestep any discussion of the relative HIP-ness of Anthrax or Marillion (Hi Jon!) due to personal aesthetics, I have to say that from a sociological perspective I would be interested in an ethnography of an Anthrax tour or of Marillion fans... Metal is probably the single most understudied subculture, at least as far as good sociology goes. We really don't need any more lit on '77 Brit punk; there's PLENTY out there all ready.... (Although I will confess to writing an MA thesis on punk in the 90s, and I even considered the riot grrls as a possible dissertation topic....) Linda "diehard HIPSTER, who nevertheless doesn't have a pierced nose" Andes u35455@uicvm.cc.uic.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 27 17:12:45 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 27 Jul 93 15:53:57 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 18:42:50 EDT From: Emilio Lombardi Subject: Virtual Reality To: socgrad@ucsd.edu To those who may not know, the Midwest Sociological Society is going to have a session on virtual reality at their next meeting. I have a strong interest in this area, but I can't see what is sociological about it. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on the matter. Virtually Yours, Emilio L. Lombardi From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 27 17:29:55 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 27 Jul 93 15:38:03 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Tue, 27 Jul 93 22:38:03 GMT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 17:06:50 CDT From: "NEICP (U of I at Chicago) (312) 996-1801" To: , , , , , Subject: Dissertation and Postdoctoral Fellowships UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT CHICAGO ANNOUNCES R. Stephen Warner, project director and professor of sociology at UIC, has received an award from Lilly Endowment Inc. to conduct a training and fellowship program promoting ethnographic studies of new ethnic and immigrant congregations. NEICP will provide intensive training in field research methods and one year of fellowship support. Warner said that fellowship opportunities are open to doctoral candidates and recent postdoctorates in all fields of social science and humanities, including anthropology and religious studies. He added that applications are particularly encouraged from individuals in Latino/a Studies and Asian Studies. It is the goal of the project, he said, to portray the increasing diversity of communal religious life in the U.S., for example Hispanic and Korean churches, Islamic centers and mosques, and Buddhist and Hindu temples. But he noted that the final mix of congregations the project will study depends on the quality and variety of proposals they receive. "It is our intention," he concluded, "to recruit fellows from the widest possible pool of applicants." The New Ethnic and Immigrant Congregations Project will fund: * a six-week ethnographic training institute in Chicago for all participants (summer 1994); * ten-month research fellowships ($12,000 dissertation fellowships, $6,000 postdoctoral fellowships) in 1994-95; * a one-week writing workshop for all participants (summer 1995); and * a national conference to present research results (spring 1996). Information packets and application forms for fellowships will be available from the NEICP office at the address listed below between August 1 and December 1, 1993. Completed applications must be postmarked no later than January 2, 1994. The New Ethnic and Immigrant Congregations Project is administered by the Office of Social Science Research at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Additional funding for the project is pending. ========================================================================= "Field research" means on-site social research--sometimes called ethnographic research--consisting of participant observation, depth interviews, and analysis of archival and textual materials. Field researchers produce descriptive reports written with attention to theoretical and topical literature. "New ethnic and immigrant groups" is an inexact term referring to groups who are expanding the boundaries of U.S. religious life beyond the mostly Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish communities of European-Americans and African-Americans characteristic of a generation ago. These groups include Latino/a Americans, Asian Americans, and Middle Eastern Americans. "Congregation" refers to the local, face-to-face religious assembly, whether it be known as a "parish," "congregation," "masjid," "center," "temple," "wat," "gurdwara," "house church," or "saint's association." Congregational studies focus on ongoing associational and communal expressions of religious life. =========================================================================== New Ethnic and Immigrant Congregations Project (312) 996-1801 Office of Social Science Research (M/C 307) FAX (312) 996-9484 University of Illinois at Chicago 1007 West Harrison Street BITNET: u61477@uicvm Chicago, Illinois 60607-7136 Internet: u61477@uicvm.cc.uic.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 27 17:31:21 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 27 Jul 93 16:08:07 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Tue, 27 Jul 93 23:08:06 GMT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 18:46:01 EST From: Jon Subject: Muzak To: socgrad@ucsd.BitNet Seems to me that if someone wants to listen to Anthrax, and do sociology as well, that it's a fine idea. Fugazi, butthole surfers etc are "politically correct" for cultural studies but Marillion and Anthrax are not? Tch Tch Tch. I like Marillion so I'm not culturally hip and my opinion on "youth culture" means nothing? Youth culture listens to Anthrax, Metallica, Soundgarden, Spin Drs, Self righteous trendy intellectual college students listen to L7 and Soviet France and laugh at the "prol" nature of youth. Which is why cultural studies of youth generally tell you nothing. Is musical taste an important variable? If so why. Slayer is Art. Metallica is in Baudrillardian space. More so than any of the above mentioned trendy bands. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 27 18:25:31 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 27 Jul 93 18:08:30 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 28 Jul 93 01:08:30 GMT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 20:43:29 EST From: Jon Subject: Youth Culture To: Socgradites Sounds like the discussion on youth culture we;re having would be a good addition to the youth culture session I;m moderating at ASA. It's session 271 and meets on monday at 12:30. Marillion and Baudrillard rule! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Jul 27 19:29:19 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 27 Jul 93 19:14:43 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:56:35 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: Muzak Yo Jon! So does this mean you think I'm some kinda "self righteous trendy intellectual"????!!!!! (Well, maybe I am....) Now I feel like my musical tastes are the ones being slagged! (And after I defended you and everything.... boo hoo) Well, bring yer nerf sword along to the ASA meetings, and we'll battle it out in person. Hey, maybe we can sell tickets! Should I wear my HOLE t-shirt or my L7 shirt to your roundtable? I think that my point here is that being a sociologist of youth culture/music and being a fan of youth culture/music should probably be somewhat separate things. I, for one, try to be a little objective about the truly subjective nature of my own tastes... (Isn't that strangely Weberian of me?) I guess Bourdieu would say that tastes are socially determined. Here in Chicago the metal scene seems to be happening mostly in the suburbs, for instance. I happen to think that chance is a big component too - there was a really active punk scene in Tucson while I was in college, hence I got into punk. One of my closest friends/colleagues went to college in Michigan's UP; there was no punk scene to speak of, but a lively (although small) metal subculture. So even though we're from similar class backgrounds, and pretty much equally intellectual/trendy/feminist types, she became a metal head. Linda "trendy intellectual hipster who doesn't dye her hair black anymore" u35455@uicvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 06:16:48 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 06:06:36 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:03:25 EDT From: EMILIO Subject: YOUTH CULTURE To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Are all studies about youth culture based on heavy metal and punk? Has anyone done anything on Raves/Rages? Just curious. Emilio From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 10:55:10 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:09:30 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:09:30 GMT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:35:58 EST From: Jon Subject: It's only rock and roll To: "Ya'll" I haven't seen any articles dealing with raves. Be a good project. The (admitedly shakey) journal Popular Music and Society covers a wide range of topics not limited to punk or metal. They seem to follow trends like everything else, however. Ie when Bruce was popular there was alot of content analysis of his stuff. My thinking on Emilio's question is that there has been a focus on punk and metal because these genre's seem to be the center (derrida reference) of youth culture. THere has been an emerging literature on Hip Hop as well. The journal Black Sacred Musicology put out a special issue on rap awhile back. See Venice Berry's work in this area. Also Trish Rose. Someone ask Linda about sexism in pop culture studies and we can really get cooking! FUGAZI IS THE TITLE OF A MARILLION ALBUM! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 12:05:51 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:32:22 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:26:42 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: muzak some more To: socgrad@ucsd.edu I'm laughing out loud -- this dialogue is so entertaining. Thank you linda and jon for your witty crits of one another's approaches to music. Perhaps taste is contextual too. In Seattle (my hometown) metal is a small scene compared to the alternative stuff going down nightly. Perhaps the character of the bands and the character of the fans has some correlation (not to be offensive, but a glam vs. gutter kind of self-conception?). I'm just glad to see people doing some youth culture work -- since I'm stuck in my women-and-work or "sexism and power" track. Linda was it you with the punk thesis? I'd *really* like to see it. -Pamela From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 13:12:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 12:40:11 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Wed, 28 Jul 93 19:40:11 GMT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 15:23:26 EST From: Jon Subject: Seattle To: Intelligensia I guess this is directed towards Pamela . I always considered the "seattle" music thing to be far more metal than alternative. Soundgarden sounds an awful lot like old Black Sabbath etc. How do the folkes in Seattle view this. Also: Queensryche (another seattle band) put out the album operation:mindcrime which reads like a C. Wright Mills treatise. Is the seattle music scene that has taken over the country as important in seattle? Jon From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 15:44:34 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 15:01:02 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: Henry Daniel Anaya Subject: Hey Jon! To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:06:07 PDT Hey Jon, Sorry I had to respond to you through socgrad, but didn't have your e-mail address. Yea, Bush and I are buds; we went to grade school together. He was initially in Armored Saint, and was offered the Anthrax gig after they booted Joey Belladonna. Bush initially turned them down, but they persisted, and basically won him over. If you would like to chat, please contact me at hanaya@leland.stanford.edu See ya. Henry Anaya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 17:14:54 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 16:23:09 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 18:13:44 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: muzak some more Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 13:26:42 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: muzak some more To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Pamela sez: >I'm laughing out loud -- this dialogue is so entertaining. Thank you linda >and jon for your witty crits of one another's approaches to music. Hey, you should see what our PRIVATE e-mail looks like. tee hee. I happen to agree somewhat with Jon's suggestion that much of the Seattle scene music is at least very INFLUENCED by 70's metal... This idea was confirmed exuberantly by a Seattle musician e-mail pal of mine too... I wonder what a social network analysis of some of these really active & high profile music towns would look like. (Say, Seattle now compared to Athens or Minneapolis in the early 80s....) >Linda was it you with the punk thesis? I'd *really* like to see it. Yep. Write me a private e-mail with your address..... Linda "music is your best entertainment value" Andes u35455@uicvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 17:39:45 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:03:10 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 18:55:58 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: raves & ravers I have one article on raves, ravers, and psychotropics which was given to me by a friend. It's at home somewhere, buried in a huge pile of xeroxes no doubt. If anybody's REALLY interested I could try to excavate & provide the reference..... Hey Jon: meow - hissssss! Linda "annoying all the serious sociologists with yet another post on culture, youth, music, and similarly trivial subjects" Andes u35455@uicvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Jul 28 22:48:55 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 28 Jul 93 22:17:13 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list by weber.ucsd.edu (8.5/UCSDGENERIC.4c) on tty2si4 From: triley@weber.ucsd.edu (Tristan Riley) Subject: Chaos and social systems To: socgrad@ucsd.edu (soc) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 22:17:11 PDT > >> >> >>THE THIRD ANNUAL CHAOS NETWORK CONFERENCE >>September 8-10, 1993 >>The Landmark Center, St. Paul, Minnesota >> >>The Chaos Network Conference provides state-of-the-art >>research and practice in the application of chaos theory to >>social systems. It will feature 33 speakers as well as a number of >>pre- and post- conference workshops. >> >>The Keynote Speaker will be E. ATLEE JACKSON, Director of the Center for >>Complex Systems Research at the University of Illinois. Jackson heads one >>of the top chaos research organizations in the country. CCSR staff include >>such >> notable chaos researchers as Robert Shaw and Norman Packard. Although the >>title is still being developed, Jackson will speak about the development of >>the new science and its growing applications to business and other fields. >> >>There will be six tracks, each with a track chair and anchor who will >>develop the educational strategy of the track: >> >>Leadership: Margaret Wheatley (author - The New Science of Leadership) >>and chaired by Larry Shelton of Upsher-Smith Laboratories. Exploring the >>leader/follower relationship, power, empowerment, and new management roles >>based on assumptions, such as nonpredictability, that have developed in >>complex systems research. >> >> Economics: David Allman (Research Director, Elliott Wave Intl.) and >> chaired by Michael Buettner of Elliott Wave Intl. Exploring nonlinear >>economic models including the use of genetic algorithms, strange >>attractors, self-organizing systems, etc. to understand the dynamics of >>micro and macro >> economics. >> >> Management Strategy: Ralph Stacey (author - Managing the Unknowable), >> chaired by Brenda Zimmerman of York University. Exploring nonlinear >>models for planning, structure, and effectiveness within organizations. >> >> Organizational Dynamics: Jeffrey Goldstein (author- Unleashing the Power >> of Transformation: A Nonlinear guide for managing change) and chaired by >> Glenda Eoyang of Excel Instruction. Exploring such processes as change, >> group dynamics, and organizational behavior from a complex >> systems perspective. >> >>Research and Methodology: H. Richard Preismeyer (author - Organizations >>and Chaos) and chaired by Kevin Dooley of Univ. of Minn. The development >>and application of complexity and chaos based methodologies for social >>system research. >> >> Human Values: anchored and chaired by futurist Tom Abeles, Sagacity Inc. >>Exploring the impact of the paradigm of complexity on the humanities, art, >>philosophy, religion, metaphysics, and other areas relating to the >>development and practice of human values. >> >>---------------------- >>The Science Museum of Minnesota will be the host for the Wednesday Night >>Reception at the 3rd Annual Chaos Network Conference, September 8 - 10, >>1993. The reception will be held in the Museum's Experiment Gallery. >>There, the Museum will set up a group of interactive displays >>demonstrating aspects of chaos theory. The reception will allow >>participants to gain hands on >> experience with principles of chaos theory while meeting with speakers and >> other participants. Later in the evening, guests will experience the movie >> "Ring of Fire" on the Museum's domed Omni Theater. >> >> The Annual Banquest on Thursday Night will feature a presentation by >>Roman Verostko, an artist with international credentials who currently >>creates art work through the generation of computer code. (Note, this is >>not a >> presentation of fractal art, but the next phase of chaos generated art.) >> The presentation is titled, "How One Artist Throws Dice: From Generators >> Old and New. Verostko received honorary mention at the 1993 Prix Ars >>Electronica and is the program director for the Fourth International >>Symposium on Electronic Art. His work has been displayed in exhibits >>around the world. >> >> Pre-Conference workshops include: >> >> Systems at the Edge of Chaos - Chaos Network Publisher Mark Michaels >> highly popular workshop introducing participants to applications of chaos >> theory to organizations. >> >> The Flying Chaos Workshop - Jo Lee and John Loveland Link's very popular >> workshop combining the intricacy of Weisbord's Flying Starship Workshop >> with the high speed action of Michaels' popular Chaos Exercise. The hit of >> last year's confernce. >> >> Chaos and Fractal Geometry - a hands on math workshop for teachers and >> others interested in the fundamentalas of chaos math. >> >> Post Conference Workshops include: >> >> Chaos and the Entrepreneur - with Glenda Eoyang of Excel Instruction. >> >> How to Facilitate Organizational Transformation using Insights from >> Nonlinear Research - with conference anchor and MetaNet activist Jeffrey >> Goldstein. >> >> Action Learning: Developing leaders who can deal with chaos - lead by >> Deborah Burke and Eileen Morgan, key people in the development of the >> "Workout Program" at General Electric. >> >> Complex Dynamic Futuring - with conference anchor Tom Abeles and popular >>futurist Earl Joseph. >> >> Analyzing Turbulent Human Dynamics During Complex >> Organizational-Technological Change - with Dottie Eastman >> >> From Linear to Relational Management - with Anthony and Maggie Mansueto >>of the Foundation for Social Progress >> >> Current Business Applications for Digital Media - a handson, >> multi-presenter workshop sponsored by Cyberplex, a Minneapolis computer >>art gallery and training center. >>--------------------- >> >>Conference registration is $350. Travel and lodging arrangements are >>available. For more information contact The Chaos Network, P.O. Box 4100, >>Urbana, IL 61801, or call (217)328-0032. >> >>For those interested in the application of Chaos Theory to social systems, >>you may contact the above to get information on how to join the Chaos >>Network, and also participate in MetaNet's corresponding bulletin board. >> >> >> >> >> > > From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 01:25:57 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 00:21:34 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: Seattle Music Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 00:21:31 -0700 From: bigdog@nevada.edu For those in the know this music scene is over. The true measure of the cutting edge is now Branson. After all it was only the coffee buzz that kept the Seattle scene going for so long. I would like to know what soc types think is the next big scene, or is that to trendy? Is Atlanta and Follow For Now going to be it? Can NC produce a scene. What is a music scene. A brief picture of the post-mod? Is that any group that emerged after Pete Townsend wrote Quadrophenia? Who asked and Who wants to know? Happy Mondays, Maria McKee, and Me (bigdog)!!!! <: From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 07:41:26 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 06:23:05 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 09:11:45 EDT From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: MUSIC To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU >I would like to know what soc >types think is the next big scene, or is that to trendy? Is Atlanta and >Follow For Now going to be it? Atlanta can't be the next scene, we're too close to Athens which has already had it's time in the spotlight. Do any of you remember when Lawrence Kansas was the hot spot? I hope the next one is like that. Have any of you soc of music/subcultures types seen the work of our grad student, Randy Blazak? He's really into it - was the manager for Drivin and Cryin and can get people like Kevin Kinney and Pete Buck to come talk to his classes about being rock stars _and_play a few songs. He's considered quite an expert on skinheads, I think, has been on various talk shows (including "Jane Pratt"). He has a nice piece on Bohemian Enclaves in Resat Kesaba's (1991) _Cities in the World System_. Also, I imagine he'd be happy to send out any of his pieces to interested people in the field. I thought I'd mention him, 'cause he's a friend, but I'm not sure he's going tomake it to ASA and he's relatively computer phobic so I doubt he's on the net. Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 08:39:23 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 07:45:55 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 10:46 EDT From: Subject: Re: Seattle Music To: bigdog@nevada.edu How bizzare. I'm from seattle and just gave a cat named bigdog to some friends from NC. Right before I read this message, a horse player was discussing the difference between theory and praxis at the Saratoga meet. Friends say NC scene will never catch on because of offical repression. Cops, building codes, liquor licences, etc. Jetaway (just a modern guy...) Dave. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 08:45:38 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 07:38:31 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Thu, 29 Jul 93 14:38:30 GMT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 10:35 EDT From: Subject: Re: Seattle To: JEPSTEIN@KENTVM.BitNet >I've been away from Seattle for two years (sigh) but... And I'm not Pamela but.. >I guess this is directed towards Pamela . >I always considered the "seattle" music thing >to be far more metal than alternative. >Soundgarden sounds an awful lot like >old Black Sabbath etc. I've always viewed 'grunge' as a cross between punk and metal. Or, in some cases, like Soundgarden, early blues - based rock (Creem, Stones, etc.) and metal. >How do the folkes in Seattle view this. Most of the musicians would cite metal bands as large influences, but also mixtures of mainstream (The Sweet, 'Ballroom Blitz) and alternative (Husker Du, for instance) pop bands. >Also: Queensryche (another seattle band) put >out the album operation:mindcrime which reads like >a C. Wright Mills treatise. >Is the seattle music scene that has taken over the country >as important in seattle? Don't know anymore. >Jon Jetaway (Consistency between lists) Dave. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 11:42:21 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 09:40:45 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:40:45 GMT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 12:18:03 EST From: Jon Subject: Postmodernist music and representation To: youse guys Been thinking about the study of particular music subcultures and postmodernism. Two arguements have popped up on the list. 1) Bands like Bikini Kill Cult and babes in toyland represent the postmoderm musical moment and 2) (my arguement) that bands like Metallica and U2 more accurately represent postmodernism. Baudrillard: "the modern artist should not try to revolorize, resacrilize traditional art or aesthetics, but go further into the commodity." Music, as comodity, becomes the absolute object. In this way U2 can celebrate their art as commodity (sign at concert said "art is manipulation" "Rock star is a job description") and become the center for a nonexistent mainstream youth culture. Which, despite it's disappearence, seems to attract huge numbers of consumers. The "alternative" thing then becomes a nostalgia for a mythic past and either way we're implicated. Later, Jon From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 13:11:31 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 11:25:59 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.930729142421.288; 29 Jul 93 14:24:32 +500 To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From: S-SCHUBERT@bss1.umd.edu Date: 29 Jul 93 14:24:13 EDT Subject: muzaking voyeuristically speaking, this sure beats the hell out of the coleman debates. i think i'll go home and find my old KISS albums. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:00:54 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 13:29:53 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list From: julianp@sfu.ca Subject: Rave on! To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 13:29:47 PDT I must say, I'm thoroughly enjoying this. Beats arguing about the relative merits of Sebadoh vs Marillion with my cat. By the way, a BIG thanks to all who responded to my request for Philosophy of Social Science reading - I raided the library this morning, and astonishingly none of the books are out on loan! While I think about it, a couple of recent references to `Rave' culture (RIP?) are Neville Wakefield's `Postmodernism: The Twilight of the Real' (in which he uses B*********d to analyse the British Acid House scene), Helena Blakemore's `Acid - Burning a Hole in the Present' (in Gary Day's `Readings in Popular Culture',1990), and a book by Steve Redhead which I can't remember the exact name of, but has the words `Youth Culture' and `Year 2000' in its title. I don't know whether I'm as convinced as Jon seems to be that B*********d et.al.(sorry-still can't bring myself to say his name) provide the key to understanding contemp. youth culture.(let's face it, anyone who claims the Gulf war never really happened must be a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic). I suppose the question hinges on the idea of whether there can be something "authentic" or "progressive" (pick your own pre-postmodern word here) about music/art, or whether it is simply a case of the "joissance" of the listener. I think Linda is probably right when she says that it is pointless to get caught up in questions of "personal aesthetics", although at the same time I don't think I'm prepared to say that, as `art', Michael Jackson or Guns `N Roses has as much `worth' (oops - value laden term there) as, say, Henry Rollins or Negativland or whoever. This is not because I think so-called `alternative' bands are somehow intrinsically better than mainstream mor rock, but that many of them have consistently challenged those taken for granted assumptions that many people hold about music/art and capitalism in general: e.g it has to be big business, male dominated, involve the separation of performers and music- ians + the separation of art from everyday life etc. etc. So I think there is a case to be made for saying that music that continues to negate its status as just another commodity, or show that "you don't need a cock to rock", is perhapsmore worthy of our support than another boring bloody rant about being born in the U.S.A (oops probably offended a few Brucey-philes there) or falling in love with a girl with big tits. As for so-called `alternative' music being "politically correct", I think you only need to witness some of the dickheads at a Consolidated gig, or be a menstruating woman over 25 who likes Bikini Kill, to figure out that the `alternative scene' (whatever that is) is not without its problems. At the same time, though, there is always the hope that somehow the `proles who listen to L7, Fugazi et. al. might go just a little further, and before you know it, the `space' in postmodern culture that these bands and their audiences occupy will have become a bloody great hole. Then again, of course, (as someone in the Melody Maker said recently), they may just go out and buy another fucking Morrissey T-Shirt. Byee, Julian Prior in rainy Vancouver. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 15:20:12 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 13:56:21 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:57 EDT From: Subject: Inter-rater reliability To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Does anybody know of a canned statistical program which can caluclaute inter-rater reliability scores? Or if an equivalent procedure under a different name exists in SAS, SPSS, BDMP, or Minitab? Jetaway (So how many hit records has this Bauillard fellow had anyway?) Dave. "Power comes out of the barrel of a Fender Amp" Chairman Pao. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 18:50:56 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 18:37:49 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Fri, 30 Jul 93 01:37:49 GMT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 20:59:14 EST From: Jon Subject: Hit records To: Fellow travelers Well I don't know why Baudrillard is a bad word. I guess any challenge to paradigmatic status within a discipline is bound to create problems. Witness Garfinkel... For Baudrillard's views on Statisitcs see either In The Shadow of the Silent Majority (or the Death of the Social) or Fatal Strategies. As far as his hits go check the SSCI. You'll find that he has as many or more citations than Weber, Durkheim, or just about any other "giant." I think his critical stance towards America "it makes me vomit" has made his reception in the US less than cordial. However, If you look at his earlier work, particularly The Mirror of Production or For a Critique of the Political Economy of The Sign you will find social thery of the highest caliber. End of lecture, I'm boring myself. By the way I've always been partial to Marshalls although I had a fender twin once.... From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Jul 29 22:24:17 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 29 Jul 93 21:59:45 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 23:57:05 CDT From: "Linda Andes (312) 996-1801" To: Subject: a cite for sore eyes Lyttle, Thomas & Michael Montagne. 1992. "Drugs, Music and Ideology: A Social Pharmacological Interpretation of the Acid House Movement." International Journal of the Addictions 27(10):1159-1177. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 30 10:51:49 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 30 Jul 93 10:00:14 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 12:47:03 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: Dave's definition To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Yeah, dave, I agree with your interpretation of Seattle band influences... nice to see a fellow Norwester online. As for the bigness of the big bands from Seattle, once they're big, they lose the hometown venue (generally, though many still do shows under other names in the smaller bars) and go for the $30/ticket coluseum seating... I think we lose our sense of ownership once the producers send them away with their shiny records for the wall. They define the scene when they're there.. and then... My experience comes from knowing Chad Channing (Nirvana/Bleach and now the Fire Ants) and Ben Shepard (Sndgrdn) before either of them made the mainstream. My husband and them were homies, and he (also a musician of unnoted fame) has a *very* different perspective on Sociology and Music. To use the jargon of our trade, he says there's no causal relationship between the music musicians produce and the sub culture that might follow it. Musicians are just "doing what they're doing" and all that really makes a difference is money and the people who decide who gets the money -- producer$$$s. (anthro, I mean) In other words, it's an antro/econ question by one authority's opinion. Enjoying the chat, AMY FOERESTER, YOU REALLY SHOULD RESPOND -Pamela TO ALL THIS PETTY STUFF IF IT MAKES YOU SO MAD. ;) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 30 13:33:36 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 30 Jul 93 12:32:08 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 14:31 CDT To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From: BERTR@utxvm.cc.utexas.edu Subject: unsubsribe From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 30 16:32:55 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 30 Jul 93 15:46:27 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.930730184450.448; 30 Jul 93 18:45:01 +500 To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu Date: 30 Jul 93 18:44:40 EDT Subject: jerry's kids speaking of music with lots of space, has anyone been thinking and writing about the grateful dead lately?...a collegue is looking at soc psych dimensions of "the dead" phenomena. i personally observed many 30+ folks at a recent washington, dc grateful dead show...makes me think, could youth culture be an ephemeral role? weekend dead heads, like weekend warriors? chillin in a hyper-air conditioned building in maryland, morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 30 17:24:51 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 30 Jul 93 16:37:45 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Fri, 30 Jul 93 23:37:45 GMT Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 19:01:30 EST From: JOn Subject: I mena Amy Forester To: Amt Forester Hey. I'm in the middle of my Doctorals and can't even type anymore. I'm interested in why a bands not "creating" the subculture that follow them isn't sociological. Anthro/econ describes an awful lot of sociology I've seen, including Durkheim. Is it because we can't "count" anything if we use this type of approach? Are sociologists to become the social scientific bean counters? Amy Forester: I'm sorry I mispelled your name in the header. Pamela: We have a similar thing here in NE Ohio with a band called the Michael Stanley Band. Home town hero who can only sell out in Cleveland but does it in a big (75,000 per night for 3 days) way. It's a local culture type thing I guess. Lyotard, anyone? Jon From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Jul 30 19:06:50 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 30 Jul 93 18:32:24 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: Read at your own risk! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 18:32:20 -0700 From: bigdog@nevada.edu Music is more than just a study topic or subject for post mor-tem de-con-struct-ion. Just ask Pete Townsend. Lately, he has produced two interesting elements for debate. First, he took his unique rock opera Tommy and turned it into fodder for the boards of Broadway. Some would say that he sold his 60's angst for 90's profit. At the same time he writes and produces a new album, Psychoderelict. The albums central character is an aging, over the hill, past his prime, "rock star". This "star" attempts to make a come back by co-opting the postmodern world. The "star" regurgitates the same old music and adds touches of virtual reality in an attempt to gain the attention of the music buying public. Life imitating art? A political statement on the aging industrial powers of this world? Funny as that may seem. his vision is just a little too close to "reality" to be comfortable. Anyone heard Billy Idol's new offering? Now is Pete just selling out? Is he post-mod? Has he identified the truth of the Post Modern; it is an excuse for people to be unethical, crass, condemning, self important, and rip off everyone, including themselves? Is Post Modernism a "cold" scene that should be forgotten like Haircut Bands? What is the next step, early post post modern? Music is an expression of the social and the individual. Teen angst, sexuality, and greed fuel the "invention" of music and the people that create/play it. Just as a musician can fool him/her-self into believing that music is what is important and the money is secondary, so can sociologists fool themselves into the belief that they can understand a "scene". One that they have little or no real knowledge of. Just as U2 has made a theater out of the music, we sociologists tend to make a theater out of life. Sociology ia more about ego, posturing, and self recognition, rather than understanding. Talk all you want about "studies" of music and pop culture, but the fact is that we, as sociologists, are not the general public. We think we have the unique privilege of some small monopoly on understanding of the human condition. Why do we study anything? Is it to brust some of the post-industrial rust dust off the table of life? Isn't that what sociology should do? Funny, but when you attempt to tell this to a non-sociologist metalhead they laugh. THEY know the reasons for wanting to be a fan, for the music and the anger it represents. To them sociologists are the lost generation! (I wanted to end this at that point but since I can not access my editor I want to add a sorry for the mistakes you saw in the text.) Dave aka bigdog@nevada.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Jul 31 06:08:50 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 31 Jul 93 05:51:39 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 08:52 EDT From: Subject: Re: Dave's definition To: JYFJ@CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu >To use the jargon of our trade, he says there's no causal relationship between >the music musicians produce and the sub culture that might follow it. >Musicians >are just "doing what they're doing" and all that really makes a difference is >money and the people who decide who gets the money -- producer$$$s. > (anthro, I mean) >In other words, it's an antro/econ question by one authority's opinion. Hmmmm. No causal relationship between the music musicians produce and the subculture which might follow it. Howard Becker's "The Outsiders" (1963) Anyone? Jetaway (What comes around goes around) Dave. > Enjoying the chat, AMY FOERESTER, YOU REALLY SHOULD RESPOND > -Pamela TO ALL THIS PETTY STUFF IF IT MAKES YOU SO > MAD. ;) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Jul 31 06:20:09 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 31 Jul 93 06:09:02 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.930731090719.448; 31 Jul 93 09:07:36 +500 To: socgrad@ucsd.edu From: S-SCHUBERT@bss1.umd.edu Date: 31 Jul 93 09:07:11 EDT Subject: posturing muzakers, reflexively speaking, if sociology is about posturing, making distinctions, etc., then the current muzak debate proves (to use a non-sociological term) that the socgrad network is working as a socializing agent. signed (over thirty and vicariously reliving my youth through muzak), dan from maryland From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Jul 31 06:38:18 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 31 Jul 93 06:29:32 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 09:30 EDT From: Subject: Music cultures To: socgrad@ucsd.edu "'This must be a real horrorshow film if you're so keen on my viddying it.' And one of the white-coat vecks said, smecking: "Horrorshow is right, friend. A real show of horrors." And then I had like a cap stuck on my gulliver and I could viddy all wires running away from it..." And so it came to pass that I watched "Beavis and Butthead". "Beavis and Butthead" is a cartoon about disaffected youth. Much of the show is padded with music video clips, which the B&B boys comment upon. What genres/groups are hot according to this important cultural barometer. Read on McDuff. The Band or description of music B&B comments My comments The Cramps Psychedelic Rockabilly loved it Holy shit, one of my favorite bands from the halycon days of punk. ? Black lead singer /speed metal loved it Ok lite Grim Reaper / traditional metal sucked Nitzer Ebb / metal sucked Random comment from B&B College music sucks The Cult/ fast metal "Rules" I've been known to spin a Cult song or two. Danzig / metal "cool" but slow my glazzies stuck parts "wussy" together real horrorshow In Excess "devil inside" sucked Sure does Random comment on Red Hot Love them, they're I'll get sweaty Chilie Peppers so cool. Faith no more loved Nothing new, but listenable Jetaway (copping from Anthony Burgess) Dave. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Jul 31 15:27:11 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 31 Jul 93 15:13:25 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 16:45:53 -0500 From: pickerin@ssc.wisc.edu To: "socgrad@ucsd.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: all this muzak stuff I have one thing to say....SAMIAM RULES!....and Jawbreaker...and Fugazi... and Sebadoh.... and the New Bomb Turks,etc. But - no offense meant personally -Bikini Kill? L7? Come on! Those bands (to use one of Beavis and Butthead's favorite terms) SUCK!!! (By the way, there's an amusing interview with those two in the newest issue of Rolling Stone. I hate reading music magazines that don't even have a clue, like Rolling Stone and Spin for instance, but I made an exception this time) Well, I'm sorry for insulting those bands...but I just had to do it! sincerely yours, pickerin@ssc.wisc.edu P.S. If there are any socgrads out there who are musicians and/or big music fans, drop me a line and let me hear your thoughts about music and society, or if you just want to b.s. about aesthetics, that's cool too! Sorry again for the insult! I just couldn't help myself. If anybody feels like insulting my music, I'm open to it. See ya! "MUSIC TELEVISION WILL NOT BE REVOLUTIONIZED!" (How's that for an 'alternative' MTV slogan?) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Jul 31 22:12:30 1993 sendmail 5.67/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 31 Jul 93 21:49:47 -0700 for /usr/lib/sendmail -oc -odq -oi -fsocgrad-relay socgrad-list Date: Sun, 01 Aug 93 00:46:24 EDT From: "Pamela M. M. Jull" Subject: proper spelling To: socgrad@ucsd.edu By the way, just for the record, Amy's last name is actually spelled *****FOERSTER**** And I think I've probably guaranteed that she'll never write anything to this net by plastering her name all over it. I'll be lucky if she lets me live. Finally setting it right, Pamela