From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 06:16:34 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 06:15:18 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 06:15:14 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 08:55:02 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Clarity and academic writing... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Greetings -- Triumph! There was an article in the NYT Book Review by P. N. Limerick called "Dancing with the Professors: The Trouble with Academic Prose" and it didn't mention sociology once. (I hope this doesn't mean no one even notices we're here anymore.) LitCrit and such seem to take most of the heat -- I wonder if their problem is that they are trying to talk about big things -- like society and culture and such -- these days. In any case, a few quotes to pique your curiosity: "While we waste our time fighting over ideological conformity in the scholarly world, horrible writing remains a far more important problem. For all their difference, most right-wing and most left-wing scholars share a common allegiance to a cult of obscurity. Left, right and center all hide behind the idea that unintelligible prose indicates a sophisticated mind...." "In my American history survey course last semester, I presented a few writing rules that I intended to enforce inflexibly....Finally one aggrieved student raised her hand and said, 'You are telling us not to write long, dull sentences, but most of our assigned reading is full of long, dull sentences." Finally: "A carpenter, let us say, makes a door for a cabinet. If the door does not hang straight, the carpenter does not say, 'I will not change that door, it is an expression of my individuality; who cares if it will not close?' Instead, the carpenter removes the door and works on it until it fits. That attitude, applied to writing, could be our salvation." Happy Mondays to all. Cheers, Dan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 06:31:21 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 06:30:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 06:30:23 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 09:30 EST From: "Pamela M Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: continuing the frivolity after reading the halloween messages, I thought I would add one today in honor of All Saints Day. The tie to religion is admittedly weak... WHY GOD NEVER RECEIVED TENURE AT A UNIVERSITY 1. Because He had only one major publication, and 2. it was in Hebrew, and 3. it had no references, and 4. it wasn't published in a refereed journal, and 5. some even doubt He wrote it Himself. 6. It my be true that He created the world, but what has He published or done since? 7. His cooperative efforts have been quite limited. 8. The scientific community has had a rough time trying to repeat his results. hope you all enjoy it. Pam Paxton UPAMMP@unc.oit.unc.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 06:41:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 06:38:26 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 06:38:22 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 09:38 EST From: "Pamela M Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: a sad addition to Dan's comments we, as soc graduate students, here at UNC are continually trying to get our graduate writing course to count for credit. Currently you can take the course but it doesn't count for anything. The truely sad part is that so few people end up taking the course once they find that out. Thus, not only are we poor writers but pretty mercenary too. do any programs out there offer writing improvement courses for credit? do any programs not offer writing courses at all? Pam Paxton UPAMMP@unc.oit.unc.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 07:54:03 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 07:51:39 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 07:51:32 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 10:33:42 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Re: a sad addition to Dan's comments To: Socgraddies On Mon, 01 Nov 93 09:38 EST Pam said: >we, as soc graduate students, here at UNC are continually trying to >get our graduate writing course to count for credit. > >do any programs out there offer writing improvement courses for credit? >do any programs not offer writing courses at all? It would be a little less than accurate to call Kai Erikson's seminar "The Sociologist's Craft: A Workshop on the Organization and Presentation of Sociological Materials" a _class_ on writing, but it fulfills that function here, and it's always been available for credit (though not for a grade). Not too many people took it for credit though. It was done, but to me it seemed that it was always seen as slightly declasse to do so. I doubt it means we are less mercenary than the folks at Pam's school -- more likely a result of the fact that people usually joined the seminar only when they were further along, often already done with courses, and that one routinely stayed a member for many semesters. There's an eloquent appreciation/description of how it works written by Diane Vaughan in _Teaching Sociology_, 1988, vol. 16 (July:275-278). Kai has an essay in the Summer '89 Yale Review called "On Sociological Prose" that contains the sum and substance of what was said at the first meeting every semester. Enjoy the rhythm of his sentences and the placement of his commas. The writing issue is a big one for me and I've got a whole big file on writing, teaching writing, etc. that I'd be happy to share ideas from if anyone's interested. As for "The Sociologist's Craft," I was talking to Bernice P. of Indiana U. recently and she mentioned that there was a child of TSC there, and I've heard of a few others over the years. If you have any faculty who got PhDs here since, say, 1975 you might ask them about it. Cheers, Dan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 08:44:46 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 08:35:06 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 08:35:01 -0800 for From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: Re: a sad addition to Dan's comments To: UPAM00@UNCMVS.OIT.UNC.EDU (Pamela M Paxton) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 10:34:47 CST Here at Northwestern, I don't think anyone ever even thought about teaching a writing course. We just learn by trial and error. We do, however, have a required course in teaching. Karen From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 10:18:06 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 10:10:16 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 10:10:07 -0800 for Mon, 1 Nov 93 18:09:57 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:09 GMT Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 12:59:53 EST From: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: writing To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu At Akron a course was recently offered on "professional sociology" and included an emphasis on professional writing. This was certainly a wonderful idea and a much needed offering, however I find that not only am I looking for a course in professional and technical writing, but that I need a course in creative writing. There is much talk on this network about the need for sociologists to be relevant and interesting to a larger auidence. I think that this could be begin with some lively writing. Some of sociology's "best" works are by qualitative reserchers who can write! Hochschild's books are favorites of mine. How do you learn to write like that? I plan to take a creative writing course (somewhere) as soon as I finish my comps and get rid of my class load. A group of students at AKron are also in the process of forming writing and research support groups. The idea is to have a small network of readers for your work. I'll have to let you know how this one goes. Heather --looking to express myself-- Bulan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 10:34:19 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 10:29:22 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 10:29:18 -0800 for Mon, 1 Nov 93 18:29:07 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:29 GMT Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 13:23:52 EST From: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: steve's earlier question To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu This was sent on that fateful Sunday; so if you didn't get it: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 93 13:26:54 EDT From: R2HAF@AKRONVM Subject: Steve's "question" To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@sdsc In response to Steve H.'s nocturnal ramblings: I do think he asks a very real question here. Please excuse me for not quoting him, but I have since deleted the entries. The debate seemed to be over the benefits and costs of existing social systems and structures--order versus chaos and who benefits. Certainly a classic question. The latest issue of "Footnotes" solicits suggestions for the 1995 program under the theme: "Community of Communities: Shaping Our Future." I believe that they are askin "Steve's" question. I quote (out of order)--"What makes community?...How are neighborhoods best composed and govern themselves?...How to ensure a balance between...social prescribed roles and personal autonomy and self-expression?...Can we have a society of vying tribes without shared bonds or values?..." etc. I wasn't sure how to begin to answer Steve's earlier query but I recognize its significance. I think it gets at other questions we have been asking on the net: who are we as sociologists? What is the purpose of our research in a complex and increasingly conflictive world? Who are we working for and who cares? Thoughts? Heather Bulan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 11:25:10 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:13:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:13:00 -0800 for Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 09:54:32 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: your mail To: Steve Harvey This is pretty late in the conversation to pick this up, but I have been working way to hard on a paper and letting my mail pile up. On Sat, 23 Oct 1993, Steve Harvey wrote: > It has been said that the left is concerned with the division > of the pie, the right with the total size of the pie. For the sake of argument, > let's stipulate that there may be trade-offs between the two. How would we > compare a condition of grossly unequal distribution of vaster resources to a > condition of equality of poverty? Is there any one moral judgement that > captures it all? Consider an extreme example: How would one compare a condition > of extreme inequality to a condition of perfect equality, where the poorest in > the former is materially better off than the wealthiest (i.e., anyone) in the > latter? Do the effects of relative deprivation outweigh absolute measures? > How do factors other than "material well-being" weigh in? And, for those who > This is not necessarily the answer, but have you looked at the work of the philosopher Rawls? He has a thought experiment designed to address exactly these types of concerns. He suggests that you imaging that you and your fellow citizens are given the opportunity to design society. The catch is that none of you can know what position you will occupy in the society you design. If you opt for extreme stratification, or a state of nature, you are as likely as anyone else to come out as one of the losers in this system. Rawls suggests that under such conditions people would tend to design a system that would minimize the risk of having a terrible life. I would argue that different individuals with different risk tolerance would make different dicisions, but that most people would be likely to chose a system where the least well off members of society at least didn't suffer from cold, hunger, regular injury as a result of violence, and complete loss of personal liberty. At what point we would feel secure enough about this safety net to then encourage reward for individual accomplishment probably varies greatly depending on the risk tolerance of the individual making that judgement. However, in a Rawlsian game the individuals decision could not be based on confidence in her or his own abilities. Since no one knows where they will be in the society, any decision maker is as likely as anyone else to be mentally or physically handicapped (taken in the broad sense which includes things like not being very alert or energetic, being unattractive, as well as having afflictions now legally/medically recognized as being handicaps). Don't know if this addition really answers your question, but at least it might stimulate some thinking. Bob Duniway From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 11:26:07 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:15:32 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:15:17 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 14:10:56 EST From: Emilio Subject: Writing at Akron To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I took the class that Heather refered to, overall it was a good course. However, the instructor used the APA manual for writing, and our papers had to be in APA format. So I'm not sure the course was properly named. If this is the second posting of this message I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if I had socgrad's correct address on the first message. Emilio From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 11:55:26 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:49:20 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:49:16 -0800 for From: Gary_C._David@MTS.cc.Wayne.edu Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:49:18 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: role of sociological research Hello out there is computer land. A few thought from the only state that can be diagrammed with the human hand (Michigan, of course). I have been involved in a little side line discussion about the role of sociological research. As an undergrad, I had a major is psych as well as soc (any more of you out there). What really turned me off about psychological research, at least where I was at, was that nothing was really done with the reasearch once it was completed. The author(s) would send the material to a publication , put the publication on their vita, and pat themselves on the back. But as far as constructing a framework to utilize and apply the results, there was nothing. So, I went with sociology because I thought more was done with research than mutual back-rubbing. However, now I am not so sure. Do we, as a profession, publish out of more concern of our own careers or out of concern for those that we are studying? I know that this is a generalization, and I know that there are those committed to application, but I hope everyone gets my point. Which is, what good is research without application? Now, this raises important points, such as do we have license to take our results, which may be very tenative, and try to implement them because "we" think "we" have found something signficant. When do our results actually warrent action? Are we in danger of violating the "Prime Directive" of non- interference in some human events if we interceed? If we have to wait for our discipline to come to some sort of consensus over what we have found, do we run the risk of nothing ever getting done because we have a hard time agreeing over basic issues, let along complex ones? If we can never utilize what we find to better whatever it is we are studying, what good is our work? For that matter, is there an end that we can finally arrive at and say to ourselves, "Yes, we have accomplished what we wanted. We have made the world a better place." If it is "better," better for whom. It all boils down to "What in the hell are we doing?" Also, "Who are we doing it for?" I am SURE that there are some out there who may have some opinions on this subject, and I would be interested in hearing what is said. Doing a little soul searching in the Great Lake State, Gary From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 12:29:38 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 12:22:34 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 12:22:26 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 15:14:21 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: LEARNING TO WRITE To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hmm, here at Emory although we have an excellent class on "teaching sociology" we don't really have anything EXACTLY what you all are describing. We do have a "Departmental Seminar" in which (1) all students must participate at least once (2) many students participate every semester (3) a person submits their written paper a week in advance (4) other members of the seminar (faculty and students) write comments on the paper (5) the presenter (faculty and/or student) presents their work in 15 minutes for those who haven't read it, and then responds to written critiques (6) the audience tosses around the ideas, ways to improve the paper, etc for the next hour or so. The system works well in that it trains us to (a) write clear papers which appeal to a relatively wide audience (b) write comments on papers and sharpens our critical skills (and prepares us to write commetns for journals) (c) learn to present our work in a formal setting (d) learn to engage with each other as scholars It doesn't work well in that the political economists in the dept. (I am one of them) have taken over, the younger students rarely say anything, and the faculty can get a little intense at times. I know a lot of depts. do this kind of thing. What do you think? Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 13:22:15 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 13:16:44 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 13:16:40 -0800 for From: Swen E Johnson Subject: Looking for Baubb and Graham To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 16:16:38 -0500 (EST) Is anyone out there @ Lousiana State or U of Deleware? If so, please tell graduate students Graham Ousley (LSU) and Baubb Gossweiler (U.DEL) to get in contact with: Sven Johnson Dep't of Sociology Florida State University Tallahassee, FL 32306 Thank You Sven Johnson From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 13:56:47 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 13:47:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 13:47:32 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 16:24:22 EST From: Alan Subject: Role of Sociological Research To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU For those who were there (and I didn't recognize any active members of thi s list), there was an interesting session at the Society for the Scientific Stu dy of Religion last Friday afternoon devoted to exactly the question of what ro le qualitative and mixed method researchers ought to take in studying religious bodies. In a session made practically in heaven (Lynn Davidman and Mary Jo Ne itz would have also been interesting), among the discussion group leaders were Steve Warner, Nancy Ammerman, and Wade Clark Roof. The main points made, at le ast in the discussion group I was a part of headed by Steve Warner were: 1) One doing fieldwork with religious bodies needs to define in advance wh at strategy they are taking and whether they wish to be defined first and forem ost as Sociologists versus Sociologists who may also be plausible members of th e group, and how this choice of research role affects the data you eventually a re able to collect. ... Drawing upon Steve Warner's own work, studying Evangel icals poses little problem with respect to entree and even ethics given that to an Evangelical group or a messianic group, the researcher, even if their role as Sociologist is known is always a potential convert to the group. 2) What we didn't get into, but which also might be important given the vas t majority of good qualitative research done especially by women and people of color since the late 1970's is the issue of whether we impose concepts on those we study by utilizing "common sense" concepts such as organization, role, stat us, etc. 3) We did talk about qualitative cases which did not fit into our typologi es but the main thrust of this argument was that really in-depth knowledge of a setting requires, at some point, the shedding of a solely sociological role. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 17:39:20 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:37:19 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:37:17 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 19:31:36 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Writing Sociology To: Socgrad list Publicantion Announcement! Writing Sociology is a quarterly newsletter aimed at helping sociologists write more clearly, authentically, and creatively. We seek 750- to 1500- word essays on the nature of writing as a craft; the link between writing and the self; styles and effects of sociological writing; how writing is affected by the conditions under which it is done or by the tools a writer uses; solutions to writing problems; and about the use of writing to teach sociology. We will also consider any piece of sociological writing that is clear, honest, and insightful. Inquiries and submissions can be sent to Michael Schwalbe, Department of Sociology, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, 27695-8107; or to Cliff Staples, Department of Sociology, University of North Dakota, Grand Forks ND 58202 --- Explanation in the next posting! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 17:45:12 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:40:43 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:40:39 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 19:37:31 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: My last Post To: Socgrad list Okay, so what was that I just sent? Well, a prof here at UND is putting out a newsletter with a friend/fellow scholar (mike) and I showed him some of the conversation about writting in sociology. He of course was very interested when I told him. So, he gave me a copy of what I just sent. I thought it was worth sharing. I have read the first issue, and it was actually pretty cool. I just thought I would send this on..... SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 1 19:33:39 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 1 Nov 1993 19:30:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 1 Nov 1993 19:30:53 -0800 for Date: Mon, 01 Nov 93 21:29:03 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Opps! To: Socgrad list Sorry for the lack of e-mail contact sites. Cliff Staples: ud153289@ndsuvm1 Michael Schwalbe: nmlsnc@ncsumvs.bitnet For those interested in the newsletter I mentioned: Writing sociology From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 04:34:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 04:31:10 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 04:31:07 -0800 for Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 07:31 EST From: Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd)[D To: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu >> And in other fields, like corporations, there is a glass ceiling which keeps >> women from making it to the top (with the exception of a few tokens). >> Over the past few years, I have seen the 'glass ceiling' move from speculative description to a social fact. However, I have not seen an occupational mobility study which demonstrates that the 'glass ceiling' does, in fact, exist. Perhaps someone who has read such an article could send me a reference or two? Jetaway (cgh2@psuvm) Dave. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 12:48:50 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 12:39:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 12:39:05 -0800 for Tue, 2 Nov 93 20:38:37 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 20:38 GMT Date: Tue, 02 Nov 93 15:23:17 EST From: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: writing sociology To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu It is interesting that Skee should mention the newsletter, "Writing Sociology," because it is that newsletter, along with my own writing frustrations, which inspired the idea of writing support groups for graduate students in my department. I don't recall the author, but the lead article was particularly good. It described the writing doldrums of a young faculty member and his experiences in bringing together a small support group of his own. I highly recommend the newsletter, and I plan to subscribe. The course Joya described also sounds like a worthwhile idea. I plan to spread the word and see if my department responds. --Heather From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 16:24:13 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:21:45 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:21:43 -0800 for Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 17:37:59 -0600 (CST) From: Richard D Sullivan Subject: Into the fray To: socgrad Hello everyone! I have been watching from the sidelines for a couple of weeks now and could no longer be satisfied being a passive participant. Before I get to the question I have, let me for the record say that this socgrad thing is neat! Onto my point. I am a TA for an Intro. course and we are just now covering racism. A problem arose today concerning the definition of the term. The book said it was one thing, and I, another. Besides this being a great point of departure for our discussion, I was curious to see if any of you had thoughts on it. Definition #1: Racism=the belief that one racial category is innately superior or inferior to another. Definition #2: Racism=racial prejudice plus the power to enforce these prejudices. Is the definition as clear-cut as number one suggests, or does there need to be an element of power in order for racism to exist? If the second definition is considered, it would preclude the existence of "reverse racism". This opens up a whole new area. Perhaps a distinction between racism and racial discrimination would have been more appropriate? Thoughts? Richard Sullivan Univ. of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (Please, call me Sully) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 18:44:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 18:41:37 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 18:41:33 -0800 for Date: Tue, 02 Nov 93 20:40:36 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Joya???? To: Socgrad list This is SKEE. I need to find Joya's address, I've lost it. I tried to add it to my names file, and in the process, lost her address. I have a piece of mail for her, but I can't forward it to the correct address because I dont' ahve it!!!! SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 18:50:25 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 18:47:07 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 18:47:04 -0800 for Date: Tue, 02 Nov 93 21:33:41 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: WRITING COURSES To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi, All! I've read with interest the various comments about courses designed to assist grad students in the production of scholarly works. Along with Joya I would recommend a set-up similar to our departmental seminar; as a student and former faculty member (at several colleges) I would have real difficulty accepting a purely writing course for credit. At the graduate level students should be able to diagnose their own strengths and weaknesses in writing content and style. Based on that personal insight graduate students should be able and responsible enough to seek out appropriate instruction or assistance in addressing their weaknesses. The departmental seminar is very effective in assisting writers in the production of scholarly works as works on a different level than what one learns to produce for class assignments. I also found the experience of presenting in the seminar useful to the process of preparing to present at a conference. I think we need to be very careful regarding what we ask of our graduate programs--certainly between "core" classes and "substantive" courses we have plenty to occupy our minds and time. :) Keep talking! Marni Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 19:02:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 19:00:40 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 19:00:39 -0800 for From: neese@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Racism Date: Tue, 02 Nov 93 19:00:33 -0800 Sully - I don't think we can discuss racism and its effects without addressing structure, and of course, this leads to a discussion of power. If we're trying to define racism, we should probably also define discrimination, prejudice, and while we're at it -- what is the definition of race?? I've always believed there is just one race, we humans. I'm sure these are all things you've pondered over. I am a G.A. in an intro class, too. How I get around giving definitions of undefineable things is to say, "The definition *for our purposes* is...", something like that. Just my 2 cents. >From SPSS Hell in Las Vegas, Denise From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 2 19:04:25 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 2 Nov 1993 18:58:15 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 2 Nov 1993 18:58:13 -0800 for To: Richard D Sullivan Subject: Re: Prejudice & Racism (Was: Into the fray) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1993 18:59:32 -0800 From: Michael Lichter Definition #1: Racism=the belief that one racial category is innately superior or inferior to another. Definition #2: Racism=racial prejudice plus the power to enforce these prejudices. Is the definition as clear-cut as number one suggests, or does there need to be an element of power in order for racism to exist? If the second definition is considered, it would preclude the existence of "reverse racism". This opens up a whole new area. Perhaps a distinction between racism and racial discrimination would have been more appropriate? To the extent that I'm familiar with the literature, I would say that your #1 is an overly narrow definition of prejudice (e.g. prejudices do not necessarily refer to "innate" properties of individuals or groups). Your #2 is an overly-broad definition of racism, because it appears to include situations of differential power regardless of the broader social context. Based on Gordon Allport's pioneering work, Thomas Pettigrew (19??, p. 3) states that "[prejudice] against racial and ethnic groups is an antipathy accompanied by a faulty generalization. It may be felt or expressed. It may be directed toward a group as a whole, or toward an individual because he is a member of that group." Prejudice includes an "affective" component -- a positive or negative "valence" -- and a cognitive component, which is generally called a "stereotype." Expanding on this, O'Sullivan See and Wilson (1988: 227) argue that "[prejudice] refers to the attitudinal dimenson of intergroup relations, to the process of stereotyping and aversion that may persist even in the face of countervailing evidence. Racism is a more complex belief system that prescribes and legitimates a minority group's or an out-group's subordination by claiming that the group is either biogenetically or culturally inferior. From our perspective, there are two components to racism that are not present in prejudice: an ideology that justifies social avoidance and domination by reference to the 'unalterable' characteristics of particular groups and a set of norms that prescribes differential treatment for these groups. Whereas prejudice is an attitude held by an individual, racism is an ideology of exploitation and is therefore equated with a society's culture." The fact that a prejudiced individual has the power to enforce her (positive or negative) prejudices does not in itself make her actions racist -- an act or an attitude cannot be racist *in itself*, but only within a broader social context. This also means that the mild prejudice of a dominant group member against members of a subordinated group *is* a form of racism, whereas the virulent prejudice of a subordinate group member against a dominating group *is not*. As you say, this defines "reverse racism" out of existence. I think it also makes a simple equation of discrimination against minorities ("discrimination") with affirmative action ("reverse" discrimination) kind of meaningless. On the surface, O'Sullivan See and Wilson's definition of racism does not appear to apply to the US. Clearly, whites are dominant and minorities are heavily weighted towards the bottom. The dominant ideology is no longer one which justifies white domination on the basis of inherent white superiority, however. You may ask "if everybody is the same regardless of skin color," (as many employers have told me in my recent field research), "why is wealth distributed so unequally?" The dominant ideology holds that minorities in general and blacks in particular suffer cultural deficits. They're sneaky, lazy, uneducated, unskilled, dishonest or whatever -- not because they were born that way, but because they were brought up that way (in a "culture of poverty" or just in the culture of the ghetto, the underclass, etc.). To comment once again on that UCLA professor; demonstrating to people that racial categories are socially constructed rather than biologically "real" -- while important -- does nothing to fight the idea of the *cultural* inferiority of (those socially defined as) non-whites. (Furthermore, treating minority group members with less respect than is accorded others, in this context, is a racist act.) Undermining this new racist ideology requires demonstrating why universalism is not, why meritocracy is not, and why an ahistorical understanding of race is not. References O'Sullivan See, Katherine and William Julius Wilson. 1988. "Race and Ethnicity" in _Handbook of Sociology_, ed. Neil Smelser. Newbury Park: Sage. Pettigrew, Thomas. 19??. "Prejudice" [included in class reader without reference] From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 3 11:47:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 3 Nov 1993 11:41:07 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 3 Nov 1993 11:41:00 -0800 for From: S-SCHUBERT@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931103143922.352; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 3 Nov 93 14:39:15 EDT Subject: comic relief socgradders, since the topic of debate is writing, i thought i'd forward an essay i received from someone on another network. i only wish i had written the piece. its a beautiful world, dan schubert This is an actual essay written by a college applicant. The author, Hugh Gallagher, now attends NYU. 3A. ESSAY: IN ORDER FOR THE ADMISSIONS STAFF OF OUR COLLEGE TO GET TO KNOW YOU, THE APPLICANT, BETTER, WE ASK THAT YOU ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: ARE THERE ANY SIGNIFICANT EXPERIENCES YOU HAVE HAD, OR ACCOMPLISHMENTS YOU HAVE REALIZED, THAT HAVE HELPED TO DEFINE YOU AS A PERSON? I am a dynamic figure, often seen scaling walls and crushing ice. I have been known to remodel train stations on my lunch breaks, making them more efficient in the area of heat retention. I translate ethnic slurs for Cuban refugees, I write award-winning operas, I manage time efficiently. Occasionally, I tread water for three days in a row. I woo women with my sensuous and godlike trombone playing, I can pilot bicycles up severe inclines with unflagging speed, and I cook Thirty-Minute Brownies in twenty minutes. I am an expert in stucco, a veteran in love, and an outlaw in Peru. Using only a hoe and a large glass of water, I once single-handedly defended a small village in the Amazon Basin from a horde of ferocious army ants. I play bluegrass cello, I was scouted by the Mets, I am the subject of numerous documentaries. When I'm bored, I build large suspension bridges in my yard. I enjoy urban hang gliding. On Wednesdays, after school, I repair electrical appliances free of charge. I am an abstract artist, a concrete analyst, and a ruthless bookie. Critics worldwide swoon over my original line of corduroy evening wear. I don't perspire. I am a private citizen, yet I receive fan mail. I have been caller number nine and have won the weekend passes. Last summer I toured New Jersey with a traveling centrifugal-force demonstration. I bat .400. My deft floral arrangements have earned me fame in international botany circles. Children trust me. I can hurl tennis rackets at small moving objects with deadly accuracy. I once read Paradise Lost, Moby Dick, and David Copperfield in one day and still had time to refurbish an entire dining room that evening. I know the exact location of every food item in the supermarket. I have performed several covert operations for the CIA. I sleep once a week; when I do sleep, I sleep in a chair. While on vacation in Canada, I successfully negotiated with a group of terrorists who had seized a small bakery. The laws of physics do not apply to me. I balance, I weave, I dodge, I frolic, and my bills are all paid. On weekends, to let off steam, I participate in full-contact origami. Years ago I discovered the meaning of life but forgot to write it down. I have made extraordinary four course meals using only a mouli and a toaster oven. I breed prizewinning clams. I have won bullfights in San Juan, cliff-diving competitions in Sri Lanka, and spelling bees at the Kremlin. I have played Hamlet, I have performed open-heart surgery, and I have spoken with Elvis. But I have not yet gone to college. -- From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 3 17:26:59 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:25:59 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:25:56 -0800 for Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:22:14 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: WRITING COURSES To: "Marlen R. Hancock" On Tue, 2 Nov 1993, Marlen R. Hancock wrote: > At the graduate level students should be able to diagnose their > own strengths and weaknesses in writing content and style. > Why, when so many sociology professors can't? Part of the reason there is so much obscure writing is that journals will publish enough of it to convince many of us that good writing isn't necessary. I think that was a $.03 comment. Bob Duniway From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 3 17:40:22 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:37:44 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:37:43 -0800 for Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:28:44 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: Prejudice & Racism (Was: Into the fray) To: Michael Lichter If a term is being used to apply to different concepts, then you have two choices. First, you could avaoid the term, find terms that only refer to each of these concepts, and use those terms instead. Instead of racism, for example, you might want to talk about bigotry and racial discrimination. If, however, you want to use the original term because it alerts the readers you are trying to reach, has a desired rhetorical effect, or you want to remain consistent with your previous work, then you need to make it clear which concept you are communicating when you use the word. I think many authors avoid pinning themselves down because they aren't sure themselves exactly what they mean to say, and carefully defining how you use your key terms, at least in your own notes if not in your finished writing/presentation, provides as an incidental benefit clearer thinking about the subject at hand. Bob Duniway From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 3 19:08:18 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 3 Nov 1993 19:06:51 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 3 Nov 1993 19:06:49 -0800 for Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 20:57:25 CST From: Colin Subject: Racism definition To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU To me, "racism" and "racial discrimination" share the same meaning, both refering to the act or the practice of mistreating another individual based on their culturally defined "racial" characteristics only. Then, why two words? I don't know. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 3 20:05:22 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 3 Nov 1993 20:03:58 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 3 Nov 1993 20:03:56 -0800 for Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 22:57:22 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Wright Subject: Re: Racism definition To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU To reply to Colin-- The reason that there are two different words is that they are two different things. Racial discrimination refers to a social act. It is the micro level of the phenomena, something that is practiced by individuals on individuals. Racism is the structural aspect of the phenomena. It is the macro level of the phenomena, something that envelopes the cultural institutions that pattern our behavior and our lives. This is the same as realizing the difference between a racist person and a racist society. The same kind of analogy can be drawn when we refer to sexism or chauvanism. A person may be a chauvanist without a society being chauvanistic--although I would say ours is. It's the same type of thing. The chauvanist brings their individual attitudes into a social act, the chauvanistic society has the sexism built into its very institutional structure. Which effects the other the most is a question for another discussion. cw Peace From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 3 20:25:18 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 3 Nov 1993 20:24:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 3 Nov 1993 20:24:05 -0800 for Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 22:13:03 CST From: Colin Subject: Racism Definition To: Charles Wright Charles Wright's explanation of the differences between "racial discrimination" and "racial prejudice" as one specific social act, the other structural and institutional embeddedness, makes sense to me. Thank you. Indeed, "ism" can not be the same as "tion". My understanding, again maybe different from Wright's understanding, is that "racism" refers to a belief that there are different species of human being with different biological compositions that mandate different forms of social organizations. Colin From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 4 06:51:48 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 4 Nov 1993 06:48:23 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 4 Nov 1993 06:48:20 -0800 for Date: Thu, 04 Nov 93 09:17:46 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: WRITING To: Socgrad.SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Bob Duniway said yesterday: >Part of the reason there >is so much obscure writing is that journals will publish enough of it to >convince many of us that good writing isn't necessary. I think the problem is more complex than that, and I think maybe we've talked about this before here. Obscure writing is often what journals want. Clear writing is often treated as suspect - not "real" sociology. In the first round of reviews of a paper that has recently been accepted for publication (3 rounds altogether!), one of the reviewers wrote that the paper was so lucid as to make her/him wonder....I should find the exact quote, it seemed so ludicrous to me! Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 4 07:20:33 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 4 Nov 1993 07:17:43 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 4 Nov 1993 07:17:40 -0800 for Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 15:32:12 EST From: Todd R Clear Subject: Re: Hal on the planned change comp.; short Here's something from another net that I thought some of ya'll might want to discuss. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hal: One of the reasons we've gone to a two-level exam system (prioir to the dissertation) is to aallow the better student to, on the second "mastery" exam, demonstrate "command" to the degree that his/her own (or synthesis of) theory might be written. I am waiting to see it happen, and fully expect it in some cases in our program. But the thrust of your question is really two self-criticisms of the academy: (1) would ww be able to satistifactorily answer our own questions, should colleagues be responsible for evaluating our answers, and (2) would we know a creatively good answer if we saw it? I think these are pretty good questions. A few years ago, when Don Gottfredson was editing "Criminal Justice and Behavior" here at Rutgers, we decided to "add up" the reviews we'd received over the years. Of those that had at least one person saying the paper should be accepted (or accepted with minor revisions) something like 80% had another reviewer recommending outright rejection. I personally have had the "honor" (or embarassment) of seeing in the last two months three papers published in journals to which I had recommended rejection...Now that I am editing a special issue of "J of Res. in C & D" I am reminded of the unreliability of peer review. If we have trouble with each others' work, it might be reasonable to expect us to fail to see a good idea in a doctoral comp., read at full speed (if you know what I mean). Todd Clear From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 4 08:33:04 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:28:01 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:27:56 -0800 for Date: Thu, 04 Nov 93 11:23:34 EST From: DANRYAN@YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU Organization: Yale University Subject: Structures don't write papers, people do... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Greets -- I'm wary of the various "explanations" for bad writing that more or less place the blame on the environment in its various forms. For one thing, not everybody writes poorly all the time even though we share a professional environment. Could it be ... TALENT? As we've recently read, that's just a nice sounding non-explanation. My inclination here is to focus on the act of writing and to ask what one might do if one wishes to write sociology well. Here are a few ideas that come to mind -- in no particular order: 1) You have to take yourself seriously intellectually. Most people don't do this. And it's not the same as taking yourself seriously professsionally. 2) Take words seriously. See sentences and paragraphs as things that matter, as creations (things that you've made!) , and as tools. 3) Really believe in writing as a mode of communication, a way to make others see what you have seen, or know exactly where you stand and what the world looks like from there. 4) Have a commitment to clarity. You have to want the reader to know what you are saying and whether s/he agrees with you. 5) You have to surround yourself as often as possible with good writing. Look for it. Read it over and over when you find it. Emulate it. 6) Own, have close at hand when writing, and use things like Strunk and White (the point is to at least get the basics correct), a thesauras, a dictionary, etc. 7) Practice the craft of writing everytime you put words into the world, not just when you are "really" writing. 8) You have to have something to say. I think that most bad writing results from the author not really be sure of what, if anything, s/he has to say. Apply the "so what?" test and make sure that what you write includes your answer to that question if you have one (if not, think some more). 9) Recognize that society is a difficult thing to make sense of and to write about. But never let this be an excuse or an explanation; it's challenge. These are a little less concrete than I'd like, but I think they begin to illustrate my point. Paying attention to all the external reasons for bad writing assumes that if these were all fixed everyone would write well. I don't believe it for a minute. Someone might argue that we are influenced to follow or not follow "rules" like the 9 above by our environments. Influenced, perhaps, but nothing on this list is outside the realm of personal choices/decisions/actions. (This is not to agree with the comment about writing being a personal responsibility and not material for courses and such.) Understanding the structural factors that facilitate bad writing may be morally and emotionally satisfying -- it gets you off the hook -- but it will never make you a better writer. You have to do that. Hoping I haven't exceeded my line quota, Dan in New Heaven From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 4 15:22:13 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:14:40 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:14:36 -0800 for Date: Thu, 04 Nov 93 18:01:17 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: LUCID WRITING To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Ok, Dan, I'm sorry for trying to excuse bad writing style by appealing to structures...you're absolutely right. BUT, several people have asked for the exact quote from a reviewer that I mentioned earlier. The reviewer said, This paper is theoretically ambitious and more novel than most cross- national applications. It is also apparently more careful in its collection and use of data. However, upon reflection, I came to the conclusion that its great lucidity--almost to the point of being glib--had actually led me... [delete all the bad things said about my work!] Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 10:38:41 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:36:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:36:21 -0800 for Date: Sat, 06 Nov 93 13:18:08 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Content Analysis Request... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Greetings friends, lovers and pet-owners -- When I'm not doing research for the folks who sent me down to this planet, I play computer consultant to the humanities crowd here at Yale and I've recently received a few queries about computer assisted content analysis. I've played with it a little, but haven't used it in my own work so I thought I'd turn to ya'll to see if anyone had any pointers, refs, etc. Here are a few specific questions: 1) Any outstanding references (other than the Weber book in the Sage series)? Especially useful would be recent reviews that included comments on soft- ware. 2) Anyone got any experience-based pointers I might pass along? 3) Has anyone seen/heard any arguments about sample construction for content analysis? Suppose you have 50 years of a journal, 6 issues per year, and more than one type of article (say, essays, editorials and reviews) of varying lengths. Should sample construction take into account size of articles? Does it make sense to sample pages within articles or does that overlook fact that articles have internal structure? How should sample construction take expected frequency of the stuff one is looking for into account? Etc. Someone, somewhere, must have already worked these things through. 4) If you've done scanning of large amounts of material, how much time did it take once you got the hang of it? I was trying to help these folks estimate the workload, but our major variable (time per page) was a guess. Wasn't that application letter a great piece?! :) 5) Experience with wordfinder, wordcounter, free format database, etc. programs. Thanks much in advance. Appreciation will be expressed for any and all hints, tips, comments and answers in the form of mentioning your name to the great gods of methodology, sending get-it-done vibes in your direction and a cup of coffee at Cafe ASA in LA. Cheers, Dan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 13:32:37 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 13:30:21 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 13:30:18 -0800 for Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1993 16:28:18 -0400 (EDT) From: BEV SMITH Subject: Hi again To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hi, everyone - I'm back on the SocGrad network for the first time since August, and I have no idea what's been going on, but I have two items to share: 1. To everyone who participated in my study on computers in qualitative research, thanks again, and I haven't finished it yet! I've been swamped since the semester started (oh, OF COURSE I'll be able to finish it once school starts....Yeah, right.), but I hope to finish it over the semester break. My sample right now is overloaded with males and students, so I'm only interviewing female faculty now. A request: would anyone that I interviewed over the phone this past summer please send me mail and tell me your age (this is all confidential, remember) and your student status (i.e., Master's or Doctoral candidate, how many years in your current program). I haven't finished transcribing all the tapes, but I know for sure that I didn't get this info from everyone. And it'll be good to hear from you, too. 2. A colleague and I are organizing a new Business Ethics Teaching Society, which some of you Business and Society types may be interested in. It's under the auspices of the International Association for Business and Society, a great group of people in a variety of disciplines and interdisciplines. I'll send the announcement to the network, and anyone who's interested in either the new organization or IABS itself please write to me directly. If you have an interest in B&S and find the huge meetings like ASA or AoM just too large and too hierarchical, IABS may be your niche. It's mine, since I retain an interest in both management and sociology and can't choose between them (and hopefully won't have to in the future). Nice to be back. Please get in touch. Bev Smith Department of Sociology Joint MBA/PhD in Sociology Program Boston College Internet: smithbk@bcvms.bc.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 14:05:35 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:04:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:04:22 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931106170248.256; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 6 Nov 93 17:02:48 EDT Subject: introductory sociology and community service hey folks, anyone out there participated in or adopted a community service type option into an intro soc course (e.g. social problems, american society, intro to sociology)...if so, what did you think? how was success as a teaching tool assessed? political issues? logistical problems? departmental support? student feedback? the state of maryland has recently adopted 75 hours of community service as a requirement for graduation from high school...consequently, we (maryland state's flagship campus) will have a ever so slightly civics educated population to contend with future sociology courses... a more general question for the network would be is it the university's responsibility to encourage community participation? in other words, is service important? morten ender by the way, bush created 1016 points of light, not 1000! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 14:06:50 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:05:35 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:05:33 -0800 for Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1993 17:03:24 -0400 (EDT) From: BEV SMITH Subject: BETS Announcment To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU All, Following is an announcement of an informal session to be held at the IABS Meeting in March. We hope that you will be as intrigued by the concept as we are. ************************************************************************** Place Your BETS: A Business Ethics Teaching Society The field of business ethics has expanded in scope during the past decade and is likely to continue its growth. Experienced faculty members are seeking innovative teaching methods, while new instructors look to their colleagues for suggested course content, cases, and texts. There are few avenues of communication and exchange currently available for teachers of business ethics. We propose to establish a new organization within IABS specifically devoted to the teaching of business ethics. The Business Ethics Teaching Society (BETS) will serve as an interdisciplinary forum for all who teach business ethics, whether at the undergraduate, MBA, or executive program level. This session will serve as an informal discussion of the core ethical issues as well as the purpose, goals, and organization of BETS. Please send us your suggestions for agenda items, either those ethical issues that you feel any business ethics course should address or any suggestions that you may have regarding organizational issues. If you would like to be involved in the planning of either the IABS session or BETS itself, please contact one of us directly. The meeting session will take place on Saturday afternoon, March 19th. If you are unable to attend the IABS meeting, your suggestions are still welcome. Session Co-Chairs: Bev Smith Bill Sodeman Department of Sociology Department of Management smithbk@bcvms.bc.edu sodemanw@vms.csd.mu.edu ************************************************************************ This announcement has been posted on the IABS-L, BUSETH-L, and SOCETH-L networks; please excuse any inevitable duplications in your mail. In addition, please forward this announcement to anyone not on these networks who may be interested in BETS. Join us! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 14:57:27 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:56:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:55:59 -0800 for Date: Sat, 06 Nov 93 17:40:32 EST From: Dan Organization: Jail University Subject: Community service and the University To: Sociologists Gonnabees On a cold and grey Saturday in November Morten asked: >a more general question for the network would be is it the >university's responsibility to encourage community participation? in >other words, is service important? Couldn't I think that community service is important, but not think that this is a responsibility of the university. That's pretty close to my opinions on these issues. I think there is a general unfortunate trend in the U.S. to give schools more and more things to do that used to be done by other community level organizations (churches, neighborhoods, civic groups, families, etc.). The more we ask schools to do, the more they will appear to fail society. This gets connected with all sorts of bizarre professionalization issues too. Pretty soon, every school in Maryland will have to have a licensced community service coordinator. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 17:05:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 17:03:53 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 17:03:51 -0800 for Subject: Community service... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1993 19:03:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello! Just thought I'd add my 2-cents worth into the conversation... I'm about to date myself here, but I want to give my opinion from my perspective as the parent of a sophomore in high school who is required to do community service in order to graduate. My personal feeling is that this area does not fall within the scope of high school (and definitely not college) education. While the intent of the program is laudable I feel that forcing someone to do good deeds does not teach altruism; instead many if these kids end up resenting it, or as one high schooler I asked told me , they think it's stupid. Making my child do stupid things is my perogative as a parent!!! One of the worst examples that I can think of is of a school here in Omaha (Westside, for those of you who are familiar with the area) that requires its sociology students to take a field trip with its special ed students. Last year I worked at a residential facility with kids with developmental disabilities and they were asked to participate in this trip. I didn't quite understand what this taught about sociology, so I called the school to find out. I learned that they weren't sure either!!! I found this whole thing to be annoying on a few levels. For one, the kids I worked with were being used to ...who knows (heighten awareness??). Also, sociology was being taught as synonymous with "social work." (ouch, those were my toes!!) It's things like this that keep our field so obscure; my own mother still tells people I am a social worker; I don't appreciate the misrepresentation of sociology by high schools. (Don't get me wrong, I think social work is a wonderful field; it's just different from sociology) Maybe field trips to see social programs in action, tied into social problems on a theoretical level, are an appropriate teaching tool, but forced altruism is not. Just my humble opinion... From the frozen Heartland, Laura P.S. Sorry for rambling and wandering... From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 6 17:33:29 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 6 Nov 1993 17:32:17 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 6 Nov 1993 17:32:14 -0800 for Date: Sat, 06 Nov 93 19:17:03 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: My penny To: Socgrad list Normally I would add my two cents, but I have not followed the converstion on the issue of community service closely, so it's only a penny...... I was very uninformed on this issue. It is the case that students in high school are MADE to do community service (social work?)? This is an honest question. I had never heard of such a thing, until Laura mentioned it. That is what caught my eye. So, was it just a sociology class that was made to do this, or was it all the students in the high school? I also believe that Laura is correct in pointing out that sociology and social work are DIFFERENT, which is different than slamming the OTHER field. Isn't there a program that Clinton has suggested about an exchange of moneys to go to school (college/university) for community service? This seems very different philisophically than making it (community service) a manditory requirment of graduation. One is an exchange in which both parties benifit, and the other seems exploitive of individuals (students) in order to make others (school officals) feel good about themselves. School board member Bob (or Jenn) can feel good about himself because he has FORCED children to go out and do GOOD for the community. I wish I had more of a word processor style editor so I could move things around after I write them. It would be even better if I could figure out how to write something in a word processor and DUMP it to e-mail. What a dream world that would be! Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. I will have to follow this Thread much more closely, I think there is a lot more material here than I had thought. I can not explain my in attention, I simply admit that it exists at times! SKEE - Even colder than Laura - KLOSKY From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 05:42:06 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 05:37:21 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 05:37:19 -0800 for Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 08:10:00 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: SOCIAL WORK To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I wanted to chime in a few mills worth. About community service, I think Dan is right about schools being expected to do the work of other community organizations. Hmm, though, Dan what do you think about sex education in the schools? Condom distribution? I think there are two different issues being conflated here though. One is the idea that it is the school's/university's RESPONSIBILITY to get the kids involved in some sort of "service project." The other is that some sociology professors try to awaken the sociological imaginationin their students by exposing them to a different slice of life. I know there are people in my dept who give the students optional assignments to do things like work in a shelter or soup kitchen. There are also people who take kids on field trips downtown, or suggest that they go to a bohemian enclave or whatever it takes to show these kids that the upper-middle class suburban lifestyle is not the way life is for everyone! There is something sociological about this, which is not just some sort of training ground for social work! On that note, I want to mention that sociology and social work used to be the same field. The fields split (I saw a great paper on this by my friend Paula Dressel) due to sociology trying to legitimize itself as an academic field. At the time, there were almost as many women as men invovled in the field. By splitting away from social work, sociology was able to re-masculinize itself and therefore be taken seriously by other disciplines. So what do we make of all this careful tapdancing now? Joya SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU or SOCAK663@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 08:34:58 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 08:29:16 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 08:29:14 -0800 for Subject: Careful tapdancing... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 10:29:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello. Somehow I feel the need to clarify my last posting, perhaps it is the challenge posed at the end of Joya's post? First of all, I believe that I wrote my first paragraph from a *parental* perspective. I maintain my position on High schools and forced community service. Incidentally, the school that my son attends does not use sociology as its vehicle to accomplish this; it is done in civics. I think Joya's question about schools being involved in sex education and condom distribution brings up a good point, one which I have tried to muddle through as a parent. I have supported sex ed in schools, but I wouldn't (on a personal level) fight all that hard if they took it away. I guess I believe in the family and the schools as being complementary institutions and act accordingly, so my own children would be ok either way. On the other hand, AIDS education and condom distribution are a life and death issue; since many kids don't acquire this knowledge at home and may not be comfortable with buying condoms, I think there may be a justification for the schools stepping in here. (please remember I said MAY, and here I admit to "tapdancing") I also believe that I separated sociology from social work without trying to put social work down. In fact I thought I explicitly said just that??? I was not denying a common heritage for the two disciplines. I would hope that we all realize that much of the theory behind the two is essentially the same. I suppose that the distinction between the two is the same distinction that would fall between any disciplines in which one is the practical and the other the theoretical, yet have a common foundation. I admit that it annoys me when my mother tells people that I am a social worker but it is not because I think social work is of a lesser order than sociology ( heck, I'd probably have a real job, making decent money had I gone that route!); I just think that many times in high school, sociology is presented as something more representative of social work than itself. I also thought that at the end of my post I said that "field trips to see social programs in action, tied into social problems on a theoretical level are an appropriate teaching tool, but forced altruism is not." I completely agree with Joya that these exercises are a useful and appropriate way to teach. I am in a course right now in which we take two "field trips" for the purposes that Joya stated. I have no qualms with this at all. (I wonder though, what the people who we "visit" think of it..) My problem was with REQUIRING community service. Setting it out as a voluntary, extra-credit type opportunity is a whole 'nother ballgame. I think it would be worse to have hundreds of reluctant participants, than a few willing, enthusiastic people who are going to do their work with out begrudging the tasks. I honestly don't think that I was tap-dancing, and I believe that Joya and I agree more than we disagree. I hope I have added clarity to my original points. Sometimes the stream-of-consciousness type writing to which this medium lends itself, muddies what one is trying to say. peace, Laura a thought-- "In the education of our young people it is not enough to teach them their 'duty,'...there must be created for them...a world of high purpose to which their own psychic energies will instinctively respond." --Mary Parker Follett, *The New State* From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 09:33:38 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 09:32:21 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 09:32:18 -0800 for Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 12:28:59 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: CAREFUL TAPDANCING To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Laura, I wasn't trying to challenge what you or Skee or Dan said, or suggest that anyone hadn't been very careful in their characterization of of social work as simply "different." However, I thought it was very interesting HOW careful everyone was being, I mean we are certainly NOT this careful when we are talking about how sociology and psychology are related. THAT'S more of what I was referring to when I said, "What do we make of all this tapdancing?" I think the initial connection between sociology and social work and the devaluation of social work since has made us all EXTREMELY sensitive to these issues and I thought explicitly addressing this might make an interesting addition to the dialogue here. But I certainly wasn't trying to slam anyone for slamming social work, because no one did that at all! Quite the opposite! I'm sorry if my argument that the two different streams were being "conflated" came across as an attack on what had been written. I felt like I wanted to clarify that these two approaches are different ones, and that I see the sociological imagination one as being very valuable. You did make reference to the difference, and I just wanted to draw this out, make it more explicit in our discussion, because I was afraid that that thread might get lost in all of the discussion about "forced" community service. I do apologize for any misunderstandings. Friends? Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 09:47:56 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 09:46:49 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 09:46:47 -0800 for From: LEE@cati.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931107124514.480; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 7 Nov 93 12:46:38 EDT Subject: Social Work<--->Sociology The conversation about the history of sociology and social work touches on a research project that has just begun to roll back and forth between me and a social worker/lawyer/health researcher friend of mine. I would appreciate any good references on not only the history of WHAT HAPPENED between the fields, but more so anything on PROJECTIONS FOR THE FUTURE on the connection between social work and sociology. I worked in the mental health field and most of what I saw and heard from social workers suggested a strong and growing clinical emphasis, more akin to applied psychology than to sociology. Anybody out there with interest or background in this area? Lee lee@cati.umd.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 10:33:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 10:33:01 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 10:32:59 -0800 for Subject: two left feet... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 12:32:57 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Joya, I really don't think an apology is in anyway necessary. In answer to "Friends?" You bet!!! I think that sometimes *I* have a little (alot?) of trouble interpreting this particular medium. As an aside,Lee mentions the psych-soc. difference and I just got my dear mother past that distinction. So I have actually been somewhat pleased with her at least getting the SOC part right!!!! I also meant what I said about us agreeing more than disagreeing in our posts on this topic. I just felt the need to CLARIFY my own remarks because, in re-reading them, I felt that they may have been somewhat ambiguous. In response to Lee's remarks, I also have worked with social workers (in the field of developmental disabilities) and I have found that much of their work leaned more toward psychology than sociology. I wonder if it is just those particular areas that dictate that emphasis? I know that here at UNO the MSW program can either be taken on a MICRO level, which appears to resemble counselling psychology, OR on a MACRO level which seems to be more aligned with sociology. Just my two bits... Well, It's a beautiful, sunny, autumn day here in the heartland. Anyone up for a bike ride??? Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 10:48:04 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 10:46:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 10:46:48 -0800 for Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 13:00:19 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Social Work, Sociology, Sex and Condoms... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Sunny afternoon greets -- Joya asked whether I'd be opposed to sex ed and condom distribution in schools. When I think it out in terms of contemporary American political realities, I DO support these things. When, however, I think about it in ideal typical terms -- a sort of thought experiment along the lines of "if we lived in an ideal society" -- I come up with a slightly different answer. The ideas I come to in this manner are not, I think, unrealistic or irrelevant, even if I wouldn't use them in a practical political argument. Both these issues bring up a question of what might be called the rationalization of the public consciousness -- the belief that social practices (and beliefs and attitudes) can be designed or programmed into society by applying educational technology. Examples of this belief are the notion that business, medicine and law will become more ethical professions if practicioners are required to take a course in ethics during their training. Similarly, we believe that we can fix children (it could help if we gave some thought to what broke them) by adding new life education topics to the curriculum. I may agree with the ultimate goals of these "programs," but still be unsure of both the practical (does it really make any long term difference) and moral value (does this approach signify a tacit approval of the structural shape of society?, for example) of the means. (I haven't completely figured it out yet, but these teach/treat approaches seem to me to omit an appreciation for the social organizational origins of the problem in question.) What are the long term implications of being a society that responds to problems by amending school curricula and inventing ever new social service programs? Some possibilities: 1) A whole sector arises which has a vested interest in the existence of problems and the discovery of new problems. Consider the analogy of defense conversion. If a part of the social service industry won its cold war, where would it go? What are the implications of building up the kinds of expertise that build up in social work industries? 2) Every undesirable personal or social outcome is understood as something to be treated by the appropriate expert. Can the shift of problems to the realm of the treatable (as opposed, say, to the work-on-able or even, warning sign of problems in the body social) get out of hand? 3) The more we build up a social work infrastructure, the more we see problems in terms of individuals, and the less in terms of the positions in which those individuals find themselves. This might sound very republican on first reading, but I would push in quite the opposite direction. The problem with most liberal social programs may be that they are "merely liberal" social programs when, in fact, something far more radical is called for. Even if I don't choose to become a revolutionary, though, a soberly critical appreciation of how the "society of programs" works can make me a much more effective citizen, teacher and, even, social worker or administrator of social programs. Dan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 11:30:08 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 11:28:47 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 11:28:45 -0800 for Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 13:08:05 CST From: vijayan Subject: soci <---> SOWK To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I wanted to do my Ph.D. in interdisciplinary studies with an emphasis on sociology and social work. Soon after I joined the Ph.D program it became very clear to me that the two disciplines have very different mind sets . In order to keep my interests in the two disciplines alive, I have created a package for myself which includes demography and social policy. The impetus for the development of social work was provided by the settle- ment house movement. From a very sociological perspective to social problems , social workers have moved more twoward a person oriented perspective to social problems. To day social workers are less inclined to take on advocacy roles. In the more recent times we have seen an emergence of a billion dollar counselling industry. Several types of therapies have emerged. Many social workers have become an essential part of that industry. Here in Texas, many mental health centers were cited for malpractice a couple of years ago. Social workers were very much a part of those institutions. The sociology and social work viol connection has to be seen in the light of the proffessionalization and privatization of these fileds. At this university, social workers with an interest in social policy work very closely with sociologists. Those interested in counseeling tend to keep their distance from sociologists This may be mutual. This discussion has certainly revived the sociological imagination in me. And I am glad. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 11:34:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 11:32:58 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 11:32:55 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931107143122.480; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 7 Nov 93 14:31:20 EDT Subject: community serving, prophylactic idealist ...thanks for the discussion on community service...you folks provided me ammunition for an upcoming teleconference on community service in universities... ...i agree with most of you idealistically...that community service should not be required in high schools and less so in the uni, but like always, the prophylactic idealist in me dominates... if not the university, where? if not us, who? if not now, when?... morris janowitz noted that a civic education has historically been deconstructed through mass education, ethnic acculturation and the welfare state...he uses the term civic consciousness, defined as the link between the person and the state (and i would expand to international responsibilities)...he notes that citizenship obligations have declined including voting, educating one's family, paying taxes, political activity, jury duty, and the ultimate sacrifice, giving one's life for country (without financial compensation)...for example, before the all-volunteer military (1973), the u.s. military had a greater proportional socio-demographic representation than it does now...most western militaries recruit for their national defense needs with economic incentives (thanks to milton friedman)...clinton's national service plan follows this same path by linking education tuition and national service...youth who spend time in community type service receive college payment vouchers...paid altruism... moreover, i loose you folks in the discussion on the distinction between sociology and social work...sociology and social work distinctions only seem important at the upper-classman and graduate level...my understanding is that there are no undergraduate social work majors/departments (i could be wrong)...moreover, most undergrads are not taking intro sociology courses to be sociologists, but rather to be generally educated... ...ok we force (or my preferred alternative: limited options) people to be altruistic...are we not "forcing" them to have sociological imagination when they take soc courses and read our books...on a more practical level and in response to joya, what happens when other institutions attempt to "de-masculinize" professionally to increase their constituency (e.g. militaries and "humanitarian relief" in somalia)...what happened to all those "service workers" over there?...somebody pull the plug....... by the way, janowitz notes three important positive functions of (voluntary!) civic education, 1) intergrating the heterogenous population (sometimes called the contact hypothesis), 2) participants will learn about socio-economic realities and 3) an overall positive experience for most... "to be is to be related" morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 11:54:16 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 11:53:05 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 11:53:04 -0800 for From: neese@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Social Work Dept Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 11:53:00 -0800 Morten - Wanted to drop a quick line and let you know that at UNLV (I know, I know) Social Work used to be part of the Sociology Department. A couple of years ago, in a microcosmic attempt I imagine to follow what was going on the the larger world of the disciplines themselves, Social Work broke off and became there own department. FYI. A little vignette: Last year about this time, a small group of us socgradders tried to collect blankets, clothes, etc for some of the shelters in town. Long story short - another small group of socgradders made a stink about us being sociologists, and doing things like that was a job for those *social workers* (derisive tone). So yes, prejudices between the two disciplines are alive and well. >From the cold and windy desert, Denise From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 12:20:25 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 12:19:10 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 12:19:06 -0800 for Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 14:02:35 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Extra credit? To: Socgrad list There are so many issues, I don't know what to write about first: 1. Extra credit: In psychology a researcher is not allowed to give Extra credit for participation in research project. The reason? I believe it has something to do with the idea of VOLUNTARY, or some such meaningless ethical thing. :) If you offer extra credit (say 1% point on the final grade) than the student has been coerced into the project. Is not the same true of community service? How can a project be optional? If you (an instructor) give extra credit for it, than it is not TRUELY optional for those students who are borderline! 2. The existance of SWK undergraduate majors. At both of the universities I have attended, there have been such departments, and people actually taking classes in them! :) I actually got to make some money tutoring them in undergraduate (Baby) stats. So, they are out there. they even have to acredited by some group. 3. The distinction between SK and SOC was larger than simply trying to legitimate SOC, and make it a male thing. The type of SOC that was done was also limited. This shift started to take place in the first two decades of this century. But, it came to a head for most in the begining of the 30's, when many schools started to have departments. What I am speaking of is the idea of doing APPLIED sociology. This is not SWK, but instead, doing SOC in applied settings, such as policy research, consulting to firms, and SOC for pay! Not of this was seen as legitimate following the split. Those that did do it where devalued (at the time) for what they did. SOC was focused on the basic side of a research model, and ignored the applied side. 4. Cites on the issue: "An Introduction to Applied Sociology" by Paul F. Lazarsfeld and Jeffrey G. Reitz. It is a little dated (1975), but this fact simply backs up the arguement that it is not legitimate. "Radical Sociology" by Sternberg. 1977. It discusses the place of soc in the academia. Anyway, I'm starting to feel like this is getting too long. Has anyone read either of the cites I provide? Laura and Joya -- A lesson I have learned on SOCGRAD is that no matter what people say ON list, they are well intentioned (most times), and hold no grudges (speeling?). So, don't worry so much about the toe stepping. This is not to say that I am a NET genius. I still step on toes, as I have with both of you at times. It will be okay. SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 13:51:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 13:49:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 13:49:22 -0800 for Subject: Social Work, sociology, etc. To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 15:49:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" I know I've already said more than my share in this discussion, but I am feeling especially talkative today, so ... UNO offers an undergrad social work program. We also, as I have mentioned before, have an MSW program, that requires a BSW or an additional 24 (Or so) hours of coursework at the graduate level. The other point I wanted to make is that hopefully none of us delude ourselves into thinking that most of our intro students are budding sociologists. However, I know that our dept. considers the intro courses to be our "recruiting vehicle" since many, if not most, of these students are not familiar with the discipline. It's difficult to major in something that you don't know anything about. This is where I think the distinction between the two needs to be made and I believe it is (at least I hope so) on the college-level. Sociology at this level is taught either by sociologists, or sociologist-gonnabes, so misrepresentation should not be an issue. On the high school level, it's another story. I'll shut up now! Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 7 17:28:09 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 7 Nov 1993 17:24:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 7 Nov 1993 17:24:23 -0800 for Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 19:20:39 CST From: Colin Subject: Janowitz and Community Service To: Socgrad I think Morten's analysis of university's mission in civic education in the light of Morris Janowitz is a very apt one. Hope everybody has read it. Colin From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 06:23:11 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 06:19:17 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 06:19:11 -0800 for Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 08:44:16 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: IDEOLOGY To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I'm so pleased with Dan's discussion of condom distribution.I had thought that the discussion might go in this direction, and I'm hoping to keep it going a bit. DJR jr says: >(I haven't completely figured it out yet, but these teach/treat approaches seem >to me to omit an appreciation for the social organizational origins of the >problem in question.) Exactly! As sociologists, we know that there is an interaction between the superstructure and the substructure. But I know from my experience in teaching that my students always try and gravitate towards treating "problems" (I know Steve won't be happy with this line!) through education. ANd what they are basically saying is that education has a direct effect on ideology and changing ideology is all that needs to happen for the problem to be handled. Dan also says after discussing some problems he identifies with such social programs: >This might sound very republican on first reading, but I would push in quite >the opposite direction. The problem with most liberal social programs may be >that they are "merely liberal" social programs when, in fact, something far >more radical is called for. I agree! For example, I study welfare policy and welfare states. But you know, Iam completely aware that welfare is not the best way to deal with poverty. Poverty in welfare states is caused by joblessness. What we need are labor market policies, policies oriented toward full employment, etc. Welfare should just pick up any remaining slack. Something more radical is called for! ANd yet discussion of poverty in this country center around things like the "culture of poverty" and the "problems of welfare." I have hundreds of more lines on this, but I think I'll save them for my dissertation and see what you guys might add to the mix. Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 07:24:32 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:20:58 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:20:56 -0800 for Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 10:20 EST From: "Pamela M Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: psychology research and community service Skee, is the rule that psychologists can't demand that students participate in research national or just one at your university? I did my undergraduate work at the University of Michigan and the intro psych students are REQUIRED to participate in one research project (fill out a survey, be a guinea pig) in order to pass the class. This may be considered unethical but hey, the graduate students there need people to study and you COULD argue that since the undergrads can't do research on their own yet they do get a taste of the process this way... speaking of ethics, there's that cloning of a human embryo... actually, just think, it would be alot easier to study society if there were only four types of people in the world... ;) Pam Paxton UPAMMP@unc.oit.unc.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 08:33:40 1993 sendmail 8.6.3/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 08:29:59 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 08:29:57 -0800 for From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: educating vcivics To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 10:29:55 CST I want to reply to some things Dan said a few days ago. He said that he was uncomfortable with the idea of teaching students ethics because he was not sure they could be taught. (Did I paraphrase you correctly?) I share some suspicions about the efficacy of courses in ethics, but I wonder what this means about our ideas about education. Can't someone learn, through the classroom, to appreciate poetry? Don't we all believe that we can teach people to appreciate concepts, like inequality, through our classes? I taught social inequality this summer and one of the comments I received at then end of the course was that the student had learned that such inequities exist. So can't education be used to sensitize people to things they were previously oblivious or indifferent to? I am really asking these as questions. They are not rhetorical. >From the unseasonably cold midwest, Karen From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 09:57:22 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:54:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:54:52 -0800 for Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 12:29:11 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: WHAT SCHOOLS CAN TEACH To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU To add to the discussion of teaching via community service, I guess I would sing the courus (I HATE it when I can't remember how to spell) to the verses already sung. In the early 70's I took a graduate level course in education where we discussed what schools can teach. The instructor stated categorically that schools can teach children how to read, write, spell (maybe), and the facts of science, math, foreign languages, and history. The effort to have the schools correct every deficit identified in society has left us with many (or most) schools which do not do well the things they have the capacity to do because they are spending too much time and effort trying to do everything else. To add a new thought to the discussion, a colleague from South Africa states that as long as the schools try to educate everyone (rather than just those willing to pay for education and work hard to become educated), the schools will continue to have problems. I would posit that at the high school level (at minimum) we spend far too much time and money trying to coerce or bribe youngsters into staying in the school system until the end of high school. Would we be better off having a "school leaving age" similar to what seems to be practiced in Britain? I would rather have kids legally out of school and working at age 16 or so than attending school and hating it (and refusing to learn well and possibly being disruptive). I would also want to build and maintain numerous options for later acquiring the education one did not desire as a youth. So my questions are: Does everyone need 12 years of school and a high school diploma? If not, what is needed? What minimum levels of literacy and knowledge are necessary for the survival and success of society? (ie, what does every "street sweeper" need to know?) How can this minimum level be best achieved for all members of society? How can we provide the best possible conditions for successful (as personally defined) development of each child? How can people who are clearly proponents of education as a pathway to success and happiness forgo their personal bias and help plan for other paths for individuals who don't share that bias? Sorry, I also tend to rattle on forever, but as a parent (two kids in high school) and as a graduate student, I've given a fair amount of thought to these issues and would like to see some more discussion of them. Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 10:20:15 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:06:14 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:06:07 -0800 for Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 12:02:46 CST From: Colin Subject: ? To: Socgrad I am wondering what Piaget could contribute to our sociological discussion about the teaching of civic ethics. Colin From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 14:34:27 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:21:50 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:21:44 -0800 for From: CATHRINE@cati.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931108171955.480; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 8 Nov 93 17:21:12 EDT Subject: Community service. Tell me... When an assistant professor in your academic department is preparing his/her materials for tenure what role does community service play in the granting of tenure? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 17:35:15 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:33:50 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:33:46 -0800 for Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 20:06:23 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Teaching things like ethics... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Earlier today Karen H. wrote: >I want to reply to some things Dan said a few days ago. He said that he was >uncomfortable with the idea of teaching students ethics because he was not >sure they could be taught. (Did I paraphrase you correctly?) This forces me to make what might strike some as an odd distinction. On the one hand, I believe that anything can be taught -- not by anyone to every- one, but in principle, yes. On the other hand, taking a course is not the same as being taught and not the same as learning. These CAN happen when one takes a course, but there's no guarantee. What I object to is our blind faith that having people sit through and even pass a course will change the way, say, members of a profession behave. We imagine that people in business might behave unethically because of something that they don't know or because something wasn't added to the mix when we made them. It's a good question that Karen asks because it forces me to clarify this. I really believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY in teaching, and don't see this as a question of whether X's are born or made. At the risk of redundancy, I think there is a big difference between teaching/learning and requiring/taking classes. Karen makes the next good point when she goes on to say: >I share some suspicions about the efficacy of courses in ethics, but I wonder >what this means about our ideas about education. Can't someone learn, through >the classroom, to appreciate poetry? Don't we all believe that we can teach >people to appreciate concepts, like inequality, through our classes? Certainly we (hope we) can. But only the most naive among us would think that mandatory sociology classes would be an effective way to lessen the inequality in society. We agree, I think, that we can teach people to think critically and to appreciate certain concepts. It's the next step that gets me. It's a certain pattern of thinking that attracts my interest in all this. The logic goes something like this: There's a problem. This problem seems to come about because of a way that some people are. People are made in schools. We need to change the way we process people in schools so as to eliminate this problem. This form of thinking goes back a long way (centuries in European schooling). One question might be why it is such an attractive logic -- is there much folk empiricism to support it, or does it protect some very cherished beliefs, or does it allow us to avoid hard truths, or what? Of course, if the style of thinking is old, perhaps there is no reason to be alarmed about it now. Well, I'll stop now. Thanks to Karen, in any case, for the further push on this one. Cheers, Dan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 17:53:40 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:50:59 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:50:57 -0800 for From: neese@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Does this sound familiar? Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 17:50:53 -0800 Hello colleagues - Karen and Dan's musings over the "can we teach them to be good citizens?" dilemma reminds me of another dilemma that seems particularly suited to our profession, namely the "idealism leads to education, throw in a little time, leads to cynicism" dilemma. Does this sound like a familiar scenario? You became a sociologist to play your part in social change, but the more you learn about sociology, the more you realize how difficult and rare social change really is. How have you "oldtimers" in the field (to be taken affectionately and not insultingly) kept from becoming cynical? Hanging on to my last little thread of idealism, Denise From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 8 20:33:02 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 8 Nov 1993 20:30:34 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 8 Nov 1993 20:30:31 -0800 for Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 22:19:25 CST From: Colin Subject: Educating or Indoctrinating To: Socgrad I am wondering about how analytically differentiating the two concepts: educating and indoctrinating. What would be the difference of "teaching in China," vs. the "teaching" in the U.S. (of course, I am assuming there is a fundamental difference)? Is it the content of the education: collect- ivism vs. individualism , or more in the mode of teaching: I teach, you learn vs. we critically discuss as peers? It can be both. But the social consequences of emphasizing the former difference or the latter difference would not be the same. Wouldn't it? Colin From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 07:02:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:00:51 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:00:47 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 09:54 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: PATTYO%IRISHMVS.CC.ND.EDU@UICVM.UIC.EDU Subject: sources on "college life"? Hi, Part of my dissertation stresses certain aspects of college life for undergraduates. I'm theorizing something along the lines of college undergraduates experiencing their first freedoms and engaging in some risky behaviors. I was wondering if anyone knew of some sources/studies on the "college subculture." I'm having difficulty finding stuff, for some reason. Any thoughts? Thanks, Patty O'Donnell pattyo@irishmvs.cc.nd.edu ps - any predictions for the Florida St. v. Notre Dame football game to be played here on Saturday? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 08:11:26 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:09:12 -0800 for socgrad-list sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:09:11 -0800 for SOCGRAD@UCSD Tue, 9 Nov 93 16:09:10 GMT Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 09:54:31 CST From: C580002@MIZZOU1.BitNet To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.BitNet Subject: community work there is another side to community work and it is at the under- grad level....my mentor (friend, etc) became so discouraged at the apathy displayed in her inequalities course she assigned the students one hour "labor" at the local "kitchen", which feeds and houses the homeless....her entire class turned around and came into the rest of the semester with a new understanding of not only inequality, but also racism....so, as an added thought, how often do we tell soc one students about all "social evils" and then expect them to fully understand the concepts while daydreaming in an ivory tower???? deej From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 08:25:11 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:24:02 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:24:00 -0800 for From: neese@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Subcultures Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 08:23:58 -0800 Patty - One of my profs did his dissertation on a subculture called "the freaks" at UCSB. Let me drop him a note and see if he has any leads for you. It might take a couple of days, but I'll get back to you. Denise UNLV From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 09:02:18 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:01:01 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:00:59 -0800 for From: bigdog@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Fl.St. ND Game Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 09:00:56 -0800 Florida State 42 Notre Dame 17 Half Time From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 09:49:13 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:47:39 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:47:36 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 12:46:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" Subject: Florida State/Notre Dame Game To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Florida State 45 Notre Dame 42 Won in last 60 seconds by a field goal by Florida State's freshman kicker! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 10:04:45 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:02:35 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:02:32 -0800 for Subject: Notre Dame To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:02:30 -0600 (CST) From: Drew Regan This is my fearless Pick! Irish win 27 to 24 over FSU, FSU freshman kicker misses Fieldgoal for tie. Irish flanker Mike Miller will return 1 punt for a TD Thanks, Andrew Regan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 10:19:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:16:39 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:16:36 -0800 for Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:16:34 -0500 From: kenneth steven simon To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Sports stuff Do you guys mind not posting sports scores to socgrad? I really don't need to slog through this stuff in my mailbox. Keep it in e-mail, ok? ...Ken From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 12:59:45 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:58:19 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:58:17 -0800 for Subject: WHAT SCHOOLS CAN TEACH To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 14:58:14 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello all-- I wanted to reply immediately to Marni's post, but waited until I ascended from the depths of SPSS hell (yes Heather, you have plenty of company there) and could think at least reasonably coherently (I hope). Marni says that her South African friend believes that, "As long as the schools try to educate everyone (rather that just those willing to pay for education and work hard to become educated), the schools will continue to have problems." This idea really clashed with my own theoretical biases. For one, the idea of people being " willing" to pay for education presupposes that these people have the *ability* to pay. To me, this sounds very elitist. An idea such as this would maintain the gross inequalities that exist, by allowing only those who already have the resources to have access to more resources. Marni then says that, "I would posit that at the High school level (at minimum) we spend far too much time and money trying to coerce or bribe youngsters into staying in the school system. " My comment to this is only a question. I'm not sure of what is being said here. How much is too much? what constitutes coercion or bribery? I thought we have a "school leaving age." In Nebraska, it is 16. I am from New York and when I graduated HS (1975) one could quit school at 16. I was out of school at 16, for that matter. I'm not certain that the age has remained the same now tho'. Most of the questions that followed in Marni's post, left me thinking but since I don't have a background in the area of education, and I don't know where the idea of 12 years (as opposed to another time span) of education came from, I won't say anything except thanks to Marni for making me wonder about it. I will, however, take issue with the idea of "minimum levels of literacy and knowledge for the survival and success of *society*" What kind of society? The idea of "minimum" in my opinion just maintains the inequities. If we educate some people only to the level of streetsweepers, are we not creating a "class" of streetsweepers? I realize that Marni was setting these questions out as an inducement to thought and discussion. They did their job for me! I may, of course, be way off base. This happens often lately... Take care, Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 13:08:11 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:06:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:05:55 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931109160351.448; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 9 Nov 93 16:03:44 EDT Subject: Re: Community service. in response to catherine-- > Tell me... When an assistant professor in your academic department is > preparing his/her materials for tenure what role does community > service play in the granting of tenure? having recently attended a departmental professional workshop on service...i came away learning that service generally means serving on a university in-house committee of some sort; however, that service generally is not undertaken until after tenure...committee `service' only takes away from research activity...other types of service, community stuff, might be great public relations if you get your name in the local papers, but otherwise service outside the u means diddly and bo knows it... morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 13:22:59 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:18:47 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:18:44 -0800 for From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: 12 years of education To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 15:18:41 CST The reason we have a system with 12 years of education dates back to the mid-19th century. As the agrarian system was ending, and people moved increasingly to cities, they worried about what to do with their teenagers who were not yet employed. Secondary education seemed like a good idea. And the powers that be liked the idea because it was a way to continue to educate (assimilate, indoctrinate, your pick) the growing immigrant population so that they would all become "good Americans" and stop speaking foreign "tongues". Katznelson and Weir document this well, as does Michael Katz, in their respective histories of education. Karen From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 13:30:38 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:25:28 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:25:20 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931109162331.384; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 9 Nov 93 16:23:22 EDT Subject: Re: sources on "college life"? in response-- I was wondering if anyone knew of some sources/studies on the "college subculture." best source for college subcultures are keg parties on saturday nights...if you're bored, you can read Hormuth, S. (1990) The ecology of the self: relocation and self-concept change. cambridge u press...uses a longitudinal, quasi-experimental design of students' transition to university... morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 13:43:09 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:38:43 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:38:40 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 15:25:54 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: multipule issues To: Socgrad list First, I have to support the postings of the football scores, even if they sound more like basketball (because of high scores!). The point is, when you are in a class, what happens for the first few minutes, before the prof shows up? Everyone sits around and says nothing right? Not where I am from. That is the time where people get to know one another. the informal bonding that goes on here is much needed, even in the electronic classroom. Sure, maybe it could be done OFF net, but why? I personally like to see the connecting of people AND their lives. Next point. I have to agree more with the idea of education for those who are willing work for it. The concept of PAY worries me due to stratification issues. But, the idea of "perform or get out" does not. Why let people say in school who have no desire to be there? Why MAKE them stay is an even better question. But, if you don't mean $, and you mention performance, then the issue of cultural capital comes up. Some people do not do well at school simply because they come from a different cultural (brought up diff). So, who is to decide what performance is? The majority? then it becomes a reproduction of the same inequalities. So who. Maybe we should not have standards, since they lead to bias...... Just some comments. SKEE -- FSU 12 ND 13 DEFENSE! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 14:34:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 14:32:33 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 14:32:31 -0800 for Subject: Scores, capitalism, et al. To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:32:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" In response to SKEE... I'll start by echoing the sentiment that the football scores are a form of informal social interaction that are acceptable on the network. Deleting is a relatively easy process... I'm not really into football, but some of the posts have provided a laugh or two. What's the harm in that? About standards, how do we get rid of them? As long as our society is based on competition, rather than cooperation, someone will be imposing standards on someone else. This IS capitalism, ne c'est pas? Just another reason... Karen, thank you for the info on the 12 years standard. I feel enlightened! It seems pretty apparent now that you told me (us) why, but I WAS in the dark! Laura P.S. My kids told me to pick FSU by 10. But since I have a friend at ND, I am going to ignore their advice and go with ND by 3. :-) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 15:23:02 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:19:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:19:46 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 17:56:56 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: EDUCATION DISCUSSION To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU To continue the discussion of education--I have enjoyed the comments in response to my earlier posting and now I guess I should clarify my comments. I believe that the emphasis on education in the US has exagerated the potential benefits of post-secondary (and maybe secondary) education. There are people (of whom I maintain an intellectual awareness but whom I will NEVER understand) who know how to read but don't like to read. There are also people who want a job and not a career, and so on. Almost infinite variety :). My questions were intended to convey that there cannot be ONE road to personal success (however defined) for all of these various beings. While I am well aware of the impact of SES on life course (yes, I did take a strat. course) I also believe that it is immoral to demand that adults be other than what they were raised to be unless that person, as is, constitutes a clear and present threat to others in the environment. This means I don't demand that a 77 year old woman whom I know well and who was raised in RURAL Alabama even understand why I want more education than anyone else she has ever known had. Instead, I try to be very open to any changes she wants to make in her life and to support her efforts at minimal independence. When we seem to expect every young person to want and need a college education we leave them either resentful or with a sense of failure if they don't want or need that kind of education to get from where they are to where they want to be. You may recall that in my original post I demanded liberal access to education at all life stages so that an adolescent mistake wouldn't have to be a permanent disability. On the other hand, requiring those who aren't interested in school to stay in school past a certain stage often teaches them that failure isn't so bad and may even get you what you wanted to start with, that is, out of school. We defeat our primary purpose in education when this occurs. Sorry to rattle on for so long again, but also looking forward to receiving more helpful comments--I like to see the holes people can punch in what I've said, too. It inspires me to reason more concisely in the future. Thanks Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 15:36:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:28:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:28:27 -0800 for Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 18:27:47 EST From: elizabeth schaefer To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: standards Thanks so much to Laura and Skee for the only winning predictions for ND this weekend. Personally, I've been marketing my two tickets for the highest bidder. Anyone know FSU or ND fans with lots of money to blow? Re: standards. Why are we so resistant to the pass/fail system, rather than grades? I'm glad we attempt to educate everyone, but some cultures aren't incented by high grades. Not to mention that a pass/fail system would do wonders for self-esteem. My 2 cents (I can't afford much more!). From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 16:06:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:04:40 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:04:37 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 18:35:02 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: oh no another long one from JM To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I've been trying to hold my tongue, but find myself forcing people to talk to me about this off-net, and driving all my closest friends crazy. So here goes. Karen said: >Don't we all believe that we can teach >people to appreciate concepts, like inequality, through our classes?.... >can't education be used to sensitize people to things they were previously >oblivious or indifferent to? Dan responeded: >Certainly we (hope we) can. But only the most naive among us would think that >mandatory sociology classes would be an effective way to lessen the inequality >in society. We agree, I think, that we can teach people to think critically >and to appreciate certain concepts. It's the next step that gets me. YES. I agree. This is key. The next step. My students get frustrated because they KNOW that changing ideology is not enough -they learned that with me! They keep asking me what they can do. All I know is that more is necessary. This is just a tiny first step we take. Denise says: >Does this sound like a familiar scenario? You became a sociologist to play >your part in social change, but the more you learn about sociology, the more >you realize how difficult and rare social change really is. How have you >"oldtimers" in the field (to be taken affectionately and not insultingly) kept >from becoming cynical? As an admitted old-timer (at the ripe old age of 26), I have no problem with falling into cynicism. I appreciate the amazing ways in which society DOES work, as well as being critical about the ways in which I think it doesn't. The more I learn about sociology, the more I am amazed at the complexity of our world. Colin says: >I am wondering about how analytically differentiating the two concepts: >educating and indoctrinating. I don't think this is that hard to differentiate. As a teacher, I am absolutely NOT trying to win my students over to my point of view. That would be useless. Instead, I am trying to get them to think critically. Try to learn how to approach society and the world in a critical fashion. That's the point to education, NOT indoctrinating but awakening their imaginations and their reasoning abilities! Some of my students that come tome and say they've voted for the first time as the result of my class also vote Republican. Not exactly my party of choice, but GOOD for them! I have a feeling that I'm being a little unbending here. I'm sorry guys, I've been teaching strat-type classes for 3 years now, and I've thought a lot about these issues. Please feel free to push me, I think my brain might have gotten stale. Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 16:20:00 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:16:28 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:16:26 -0800 for From: Dawn Owens-Nicholson Subject: Community Service To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 18:16:50 -0600 (CST) I feel that required community service for high school students violates, at least in spirit, the 13th amendment prohibition of involuntary servitude. I think that donating ones labor to support a cause is wonderful, but should be entirely voluntary. I also find myself wondering...would institutions use the free high school labor to replace services or workers for which they had been paying? What if a particular student does not agree with any of the causes which are considered eligible by the high school? What about students who have more than an average amount of responsibility in other areas, such as those who have children, or who work to supplement family income-- isn't an extra 75 hours of service rather an undue burden? And finally, what about children who feel that altruistic activity (such as volunteerism) is immoral (Here, I am thinking mainly of Objectivists)--should they be forced to participate? -Dawn From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 17:22:53 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:20:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:20:53 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931109201913.416; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 9 Nov 93 20:19:10 EDT Subject: cross-cultural perspective on community service first, my apologies to all the undergrad social work departments...yes, they are out there, thank you, and i've been living under a rock... just for perspective... the once west germany and now germany continues to have a military draft of all eligible 18 year old males for 18 months of service...however, in the past 10 years or so, primarily following the deployment of u.s. pershing cruise missiles to to europe and a strong anti-nuclear and ultimately green party social and environmental movement, there has been a dramatic increase in conscientious objection...the alternative has been to serve an equal amount to 18 months in the zivil-dienst or civil-service...the consequence over the past 10 years has been a substantial social work labor pool, specifically in socialized medicine services and aid to the elderly population...the zivil-dienst is so successful, that if germany were to end its draft, it may have to draft just one soldier to maintain its social services labor pool...my personal observations of this was a strong bridge of generational gaps...prejudices of a conservative elderly who needed social services were significantly reduced as they came into contact with a like prejudice male youth population who thought their parents' generation overly rational and conservative...essentially, one positive outcome of community service (in first world nation- states) is the integration of heterogenous populations which appear to be increasingly segregated... morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 17:25:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:23:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:23:01 -0800 for From: Dawn Owens-Nicholson Subject: Cynicism and Sociologists To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 19:23:25 -0600 (CST) Denise says: >Does this sound like a familiar scenario? You became a sociologist to play >your part in social change, but the more you learn about sociology, the more >you realize how difficult and rare social change really is. How have you >"oldtimers" in the field (to be taken affectionately and not insultingly) kept >from becoming cynical? Hmm, interesting. I did not become a sociologist to play my part in social change. I study sociology because I am interested in understanding how social structures operate. I don't think social change is rare, I think it is continually occurring. I do try to influence the direction of social change in my own little "think globally, act locally" way--but I don't need to be a sociologist to do that. I suppose I am an old-timer (8th year in grad school, and ABD)--but I don't think I am cynical. I think that cynicism is a personality trait which is not created by disappointment--but is a way of interpreting disappointing events. (Just call me Pollyanna). -Dawn From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 17:56:41 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:55:29 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:55:28 -0800 for From: neese@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Cynicism Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 17:55:25 -0800 Dawn is right. Cynicism is more of a personality trait not created by disappointment--but is a way of interpreting disappointing events... it's also contagious if you're not careful. I must thank my fellow socgradders for all of the positive input. I'll have to transfer some of this positive thinking to our department. I imagine much of this is just growing pains, as I move from one rite of passage to another. I didn't mean to suggest there is no social change, only that things like prejudice and discrimination don't seem to be getting any better. We live in a dynamic society in which things are always changing, clearly, but in what direction? Then of course we get into the teleological debate, not to mention the debate over value judgements, ethnocentricity, androcentrism, cultural relativism, etc. etc. Pretty hard to cover all the bases in a short email and still remain p.c. (or is it culturally sensitive?). Picking myself up by my bootstraps, and enjoying everything this beautiful world has to offer - Denise (who sounds like Polyana now?) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 18:00:46 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:59:19 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:59:16 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 20:17:20 EST From: Steve Harvey To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi guys. Dawn's recent addition to the discussion pulls out an important element of the "community sevice" debate: the distinction between "voluntary" and "involuntary." Without letting myself get drawn into the metaphysical free will vs. determinism conundrum (except to say that anyone who thinks it's a trivial or self-evidently answered paradox should probably give it a little more thought), I would like to suggest that we should be careful not to reify the above-named distinction. Let's say that I have an 8:00 AM class to teach, and my clock radio sings me the blues at 7:00. I may be tired, hung-over, or just plain in a lazy mood (many of us are at 7:00 AM!), but because my liveli- hood depends on it, I haul my butt out of bed and go do my job. Was that my choice, or was I coerced by a political economic system which requires me to perform some task in return for credits with which to access other socially produced goods (i.e., which requires me to work for my pay)? The simple answer: My choice was incentive driven. Okay, let's say I give in somewhat to my lazy inclination, and am a bit slow getting ready. I have 5 minutes to make the 10 minute drive to campus, and I hate to keep my students waiting. There's a red light on the way; one which I know to be aggravatingly slow to change. And there is clearly no cross traffic, so it would pose no danger to go through the light. But I worry that there could be a cop around, and a moving violation would be too expensive to risk, so I wait. Was that my choice? Again, the short answer is: It was an incentive driven choice. Even to the extent that we internalize our notions of "right" and "wrong" (i,e., are socialized actors), one can argue that our "superego" (or "generalized other," for those who prefer to invoke social psychological rather than psychoanalytic jargon) provides "internal external" incentives; that is, acts as a proxy for external sanctioning agents. Marxist "false consciousness" arguments fit in here as well -When are we acting on our own interests, and when have our interests been distorted by external exercises of power? Well, if we don't limit "power" to *humanly* exercised power, the answer is clearly that our choices are always "distorted" by factors other than our own inclinations. Even in Eden, I might have to reach up and grab an apple, even if I was loathe to get up from my hammock! But, our environment is heavily institutionalized, and I find most of my apples in the produce section of the grocery store. Similarly, by a complex division of labor, almost all of the goods and services I consume are socially produced, and my part in the bargain is to contribute to the production of some myself. Whether my doing so is "choice" or "coercion" is moot; the distinction is somewhat arbitrary. Now, that doesn't mean there are no questions of when social institutions place unfair burdens on SOME people (groups, categories, whatever), or when social institutions are simply overly-controlling to no ones real gain (due to weak regulatory interests running amock). But those are issues that may be best addressed without reducing them to the imprecise notion of "choice" vs. "coercion." That's my half-penny's worth! -steve harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 18:48:08 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 18:46:38 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 18:46:33 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 20:41:26 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Discussion To: Socgrad list Does anyone else think that Steve was the kind of guy in grad school who had always done ALL the assigned (and optional) reading, and always raised his hand to answer questions? (steve :)) He was able to touch on just about EVERY major paradigm in soc, and even one from pscyh. I think that there are many different discussions going on at once, and that the overlap can become distracting. As has been pointed out by others (laura?) things just seem to get involved (we start to engage the material) and the subject shifts slightly so that re-thinking and re-defining must go on. Personally, I would like to see some way to tell the difference between the THREADs of conversations........ Maybe I'm a little slow, anyone have any ideas? SKEE - I'm really cold - KLOSKY From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 18:56:16 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 18:55:06 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 18:55:01 -0800 for Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 21:51:49 EST From: Steve Harvey To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Skee, if only you knew! when it comes to assigned readings, I've always been the blow-off king! But, once you've read a few book jackets, who can really tell the difference? The Polyanna's Polyanna, Steve harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 9 20:23:29 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 9 Nov 1993 20:22:21 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 9 Nov 1993 20:22:19 -0800 for From: BREKHUS@zodiac.rutgers.edu Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 23:21:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: writing courses (and seconding Bigdog's sports pick) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU A while back someone asked about writing courses. I didn't respond at the time because I was still strictly a socgrad reader. I've finally decided to come out of my shell and post something. Here at Rutgers, Chip Clarke will be teaching a course on writing, that will be graded for credit. I know from past courses that he demands lucid, non-jargonistic writing. Our program has also eliminated the qualifying exam requirement, and instead requires three "publishable" papers for one to become ABD. I think both steps are positive, in that they encourage students to try and publish early on in their career. As for the FSU Notre Dame match up, I think Big Dog is right. Notre Dame's defense will only give up 42 points in the first half because they'll be fired up. FSU's offense won't start rolling until the second half!! Wayne "haven't got a fancy nickname yet" Brekhus From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 06:55:26 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 06:54:13 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 06:54:08 -0800 for Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 08:51:29 CST From: "Linda Andes " To: Subject: sources on college life Patty, I know there are other references I can't put my finger on this morning, but the best book on contemporary college life I can think of off-the-cuff is _Coming of Age in New Jersey: College and American Culture_ by Michael Moffatt (1989, Rutgers Univ Press). Linda u35455@uicvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 10:44:47 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 10:42:48 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 10:42:46 -0800 for From: Gary_C._David@MTS.cc.Wayne.edu Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 13:42:44 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: THE FOOTBALL GAME There is only one football game to be concerned about. Next week: MICHIGAN vs. Ohio State. Any takers? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 11:33:40 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 11:32:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 11:32:22 -0800 for Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 13:29:44 CST From: J0W023B@tamvm1.tamu.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU unsub socgrad@ucsd.edu. Thanks! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 13:43:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:40:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:40:33 -0800 for From: S-SCHUBERT@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931110163857.480; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 10 Nov 93 16:38:52 EDT Subject: taking gary... gary, are you asking for takers on the michigan/osu game, or takers on the number of people crushed in the postgame celebration? thru being cool, dan schubert From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 14:26:59 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 14:19:22 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 14:19:17 -0800 for Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 17:07:35 EST From: elizabeth schaefer To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: NAFTA Debates Just wondering if anyone watched the debate last night? I thought it was an interesting spectacle, personally. I wonder how much money each side spent on presentation paraphernalia (graphs and picture frames)? More interesting, sociologically, did anyone notice that both sides were throwing around concern for labor and the environment? Do both sides really care, or are these the buttons they have chosen to push to win their case? I missed the end, so can anyone tell me who won? Elizabeth - a peanut-crunching crowd member - Schaefer From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 14:52:09 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 14:47:35 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 14:47:24 -0800 for Subject: Nafta Debates To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 16:44:33 -0600 (CST) From: Drew Regan Hello all. In response to Elizabeth, Yes, I did watch the NAFTA debates. I felt that as far as debates go, Gore won. I also noticed that they talked about labor, especially the low-wage labor that Perot alluded to. I felt that both Perot and Gore, seemed to cut at each other rather than the issue at hand. That is who will benefit and how? I have trouble believing that NAFTA will help Mexico. I feel that it may be just an excuse for Multinational corporations to exploit Mexico. I don't think that Perot or Gore really understand how much inequality exists in Mexico. My question is: Will the poor people of all three countries involved benefit from this agreement? I tend to think that only the rich in both countries will continue to get richer while inequality will continue to grow. Well, that's my bit for now. Drew Regan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 15:42:47 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 15:30:17 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 15:29:48 -0800 for Subject: NAFTA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 17:29:46 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello again, Somehow I don't think I quite got the hang of proper lurking behavior; I keep finding myself jumping into things. Oh well. In answer to Elizabeth, CNN said that Gore won. I agree with Drew that neither side fully addressed what I consider to be the major issues. You may have noticed that Gore sidestepped the question about the effects of the Free Trade Agreement (1989?) on Canada. I could probably go on about this but I won't, I have to go on one of those "coerced field trips" (so does Drew!) but I just felt compelled to tell my friend what CNN said!! Until later.... Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 16:47:15 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 16:43:00 -0800 for socgrad-list sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 16:42:58 -0800 for socgrad@UCSD.BITNET From: C580002@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Thu, 11 Nov 93 00:42:58 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 17:10:11 CST To: socgrad@ucsd.edu Subject: nafta as usual, both "sides" spent a ton of money to frame a useless argument....nafta will increase, not decrease, inequality and stratification in mexico....the US will be able to literally flush useless products across mexico borders while exploiting the labor in mexico....a form of colonialism if you want my pretty biased opinion....deej, totally against nafta.... From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 17:06:52 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 17:03:41 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 17:03:38 -0800 for Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 19:59:39 EST From: Alan Subject: NAFTA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU If I can have my short two cents in, in terms of how people usually think about such things, coming from Buffalo, NAFTA was great for the Buffalo, NY economy in 1989, where I am originally from. Given that Western New York did not have an economy in the mid-1980's (higher ed. usually does not count -- not in a met ro area where average years education is 10.4), NAFTA was great. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 10 22:11:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 10 Nov 1993 22:09:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 10 Nov 1993 22:09:55 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 01:08:50 EST From: elizabeth schaefer To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: NAFTA In response to Drew: Sadly, I don't even think the question was about whether the poor of all countries involved would benefit from NAFTA. It seemed more like, will US industry benefit? I find it hard to believe what Gore said about companies relocating their manufacturing plants to the US once the tarrifs are eliminated. Why spend the money to move back to America when the tarrifs are equal in both countries? I might buy into an argument that fewer US manufacturing plants will move to Mexico, but it still seems that low wages would be ample incentive. I'm interested in the side-agreements Gore mentioned: one for labor and another for the environment. No details were discussed (not surprising). It strikes me that the entire discussion is taking place in an economical vacuum. With the complexities of the global economy, I don't see how we can even have the discussion on a "nation" level (i.e. will "American" industry benefit from NAFTA?). Maybe, this is where Alan can help. How did NAFTA help the economy in Buffalo? I'm not familiar with the details. To Laura: This evening, someone said they thought Larry King won! Peace, Elizabeth From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 05:57:47 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 05:55:46 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 05:55:44 -0800 for Subject: NAFTA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:55:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Good Morning!! I believe that the major beneficiaries of the NAFTA will be the multinational corporations and not the people in any of the three countries. In answer to Allan, Maybe Buffalo DID benefit under the FTA, but at whose expense?? Canadian companies did exactly what US companies will do under NAFTA; they moved south of the border. The wages in the US are lower than those in Canada just as the wages in Mexico are lower than those in the US. These corporations have no allegiance to any nation; their purpose is profit, PERIOD. Under the Free Trade Agreement, Canadians lost jobs. Unemployment in Canada rose to 12% nationally, and even higher in some provinces. Their economy is in possibly the worst recession in their history. Gore had the nerve to say that the FTA had been GOOD for Canada; I don't believe that he's looked at any Canadian polls lately tho'. Although I find it hard to believe that he could ignore the fact that Canadians just voted the party that gave them the FTA soundly out of power!!! I think that the thing that bothers me most when I listen to discussions of the NAFTA is this "what will it do for us?" attitude. In my mind this is pretty selfish and narrow-minded. As Elizabeth said, we do not exist in an economic vacuum; what affects other countries has repercussions for the US as well. Exploitation of the natural resources of Canada and the cheap labor of Mexico, even if it did benefit the US, is still exploitation. There is no concern for the working class in these agreements. Profit is the bottom line regardless of the NAFTA's effects on real people. Another point that I have to make is that the great majority of news reports that I have heard, don't discuss Canada; they usually talk about The US and Mexico. Could that be that the effects on Canada are already known, and not something that would sway US opinion into the pro-NAFTA camp?? Lastly, was it me, or did anyone else hear an echo of Paul Revere during the debate? I kept hearing, "The Japanese are coming! The Japanese are coming!" Maybe it was my imagination... Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 07:26:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:25:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:25:04 -0800 for From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: immigration and NAFTA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 9:25:03 CST Did anyone else hear Gerry Ford on the Today Show warning that if we don't pass NAFTA we're going to have incredibly high numbers of "illegal" immigrants from Mexico crossing the borders for jobs? Do you think this is more "politics of fear"? It sounded xenophobic or racist or both. Karen From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 07:59:02 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:57:51 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:57:50 -0800 for Subject: NAFTA (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 09:57:48 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Forwarded message: > From psn@csf.colorado.edu Thu Nov 11 09:46:31 1993 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:46:13 -0700 > Message-Id: <01H55DD0VY42BNIZ52@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu> > Reply-To: SCHWARZ@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu > Originator: wsn@csf.colorado.edu > Sender: psn@csf.colorado.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: SCHWARZ@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu > Subject: NAFTA > X-Listserver-Version: 6.0 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Hello again, I am forwarding a post that I received from another network since it is applicable to our current discussion. If it is a repeat for you, I am sorry. Laura > > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > This is a "side agreement" to the economic logic of the Nafta > question. According to a congressional aid I just spoke to, the whole > debate is a political smokescreen by which Clinton hopes to be seen as > supporting what is essentially a republican initiative. The word in > Washington is that Nafta doesn't have a chance in the House; but if > the democrats make a good showing, they will win-over some rep. good > will. Clinton'e energetic stumping, then, is more an effort to win > bipartisan sympathy than an actual attempt to get the thing passed. > In the meantime, according to this aid, the White House is > hoping that the controversy will have political effects in Canada and > Mexico. Chretien has already declared that Canada will "renegotiate," > and apparently some folks feel the Salinas govt. is doomed without the > agreement. Two more liberal govts. in the hemisphere would force a > substantial change in any form of trade negotiation that might > eventually be passed. The dem. line being expressed here was that some > sort of agreement was inevitable in the future, but the present form > was too republican. > Two questions then: when is the Mexican election? and what > does this say for the influence of political factors on economic > policy? > Henry Schwarz > "Schwarz@Guvax.Georgetown.edu" > From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 08:14:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:12:13 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:12:07 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 10:39:00 EST From: Steve Harvey Subject: NAFTA To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Trade barriers, and the very existence of nation-states, are among the ways in which inequitable distributions of wealth and power are preserved. The fear of immigrants flooding northward over the border or jobs pouring southward are both based on the desire to capture an inequitable share of the surplus value of labor. The rich and the powerful have a long history of resistance to "free trade," starting with Mercantilism in early modern Europe. Labor's resistance to NAFTA, ironically, is based on American Labor's relative wealth and power in the global context. This is what the economic literature refers to as "rent seeking," that is, political distortions of market-driven resource distributions (don't misunderstand me: "distortions" are not some surgically removable ailment; they are part of the picture and, in the absence of frictionless markets -perfect information, no transaction costs- political action is essential to the production of public goods). However, since life on Earth IS NOT a zero-sum game, the wealthy and powerful have often found it in THEIR OWN BEST INTEREST to selectively liberalize the regime from which they profit. In a wonderful article by Yoram Barzel and Edgar Kiser called "The Rise of Democracy in England," this dynamic is discussed in the context of English kings from the Magna Charta onward ceding power to disembodied institu- tional contracts, NOT because the nobility forced it on them in some successful power struggle, but because it created confidense among the lords that any wealth generated by their own enterprise would not be arbitrarily confiscated, which in turn promoted the creation of wealth (as in "investment confidense), which in turn provided the crown with more taxable wealth and more total revenue! Economically conserative arguments (laissez-faire, libertarian) are based on a recognition of this dynamic, but ignore the effects of "transaction costs," which involve distrust and guile, and can be modeled as a prisoners dilemma. So, the point is, yes, NAFTA is being driven by profit-seeking corporations and, yes, they do indeed exploit labor in every way possible and sustainable as long as they consider it the most profitable choice (as individual firms, not as a coherent class. Ironically, if the world bourgeoisie really WERE as coherent as Marxist orientations posit, it's very likely that that would have the effect of REDUCING exploitation, because it would reduce internal transaction costs which prevent further profit-generating liberali- zations.). But these corporations are intact now in either case, whereas NAFTA' s main contribution to the picture is to help break down the "thickness" of the borders between the North American countries. Not out of altruism or generosity , but rather out of mutual greed. In the long run, this generates more total wealth AND leads to more equitable distributions. Everyone gains IN THE LONG RUN (there are definately some short-run losers!), including those nasty bourgeois profit-seekers! That's my 5 pesos worth. Steve Harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 08:40:07 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:37:17 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:37:14 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 11:33:55 EST From: elizabeth schaefer To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: sources I'm looking for sources on computer networking. A woman at ND is doing a paper using symbolic interaction stuff to analyse e-mail communities. Anything would be helpful! Thanks, Elizabeth eschaefe@bach.helios.nd.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 08:46:25 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:43:40 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:43:31 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 11:39:51 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: In the long run... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Applause for the good points in the last few comments. Here's one little addition. This doesn't end up being a plug for one side or the other, just a perspective thing: "IN THE LONG RUN we are all dead." J. M. Keynes (1923) _Tract on Monetary Reform_ From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 08:47:06 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:45:48 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:45:41 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 7847; Thu, Date: 11 Nov 1993 10:21:01 CST From: To: >Did anyone else hear Gerry Ford on the Today Show warning that if we don't >pass NAFTA we're going to have incredibly high numbers of "illegal" immigrants >from Mexico crossing the borders for jobs? >Do you think this is more "politics of fear"? It sounded xenophobic or racist >or both. >Karen I did hear the interview. I would ask a different question first. Is it true that high numbers of illegal (no quotes needed, they are in fact illegal) immigrants will be crossing from Mexico? If this is true, what effect does this have on the local economies and the national economy? If the effects are negative, the objection to illegal immigrants is valid rather than politics of fear, racism, or both. As I understand it, illegal immigration (no matter what race) has many negative effects. Maybe these pro-NAFTA people are right, rather than racist, capitalist pigs. Maybe the politics of fear is coming from the anti-NAFTA people, many of whom maintain that we would be losing our jobs to Mexicans. In any case, the same sorts of questions that I mentiond earlier need to be asked before labeling something as racist, etc. Dave From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 09:17:25 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 09:15:11 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 09:15:09 -0800 for Subject: NAFTA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:15:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" One more time and then it's off to SPSS hell for a bit... To Steve: Should the REAL effects of the FTA, since they THEORETICALLY will improve in the long run, be ignored? We are talking about living, breathing human beings (I realize, of course, that you are aware of this). In your analysis, I am not quite sure that I understand where the average worker fits in. This could be my own inability to transcend the here and now, but I am not sure that our theoretical musings help alleviate the effects of these trade agreements. Perhaps you can explain (and I am NOT being facetious here, sorry if my spelling is off), how Canadian companies relocating to the southern US (This HAS ALREADY happened) and US companies relocating to Mexico (a strong possibility if NAFTA is passed) will benefit the common person, in the long run. I believe I am missing something in your argument, and would appreciate any enlightenment offered. These aren't just fears being played upon by the powers that be; these are actual occurrences. I repeat, so as to avoid any appearance to the contrary, I am really interested in your answers to these questions. The NAFTA has held my attention and interest for quite some time and anything that can help me wade through the murk and take a real stance on the issues involved is appreciated and welcomed. My inclination at the present time is that the NAFTA is not a good idea, at least not in its present form. Thanks... Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 09:54:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 09:53:01 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 09:53:00 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:52:58 -0600 From: stdvenk@bambam.spc.uchicago.edu (Sudhir Venkatesh) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: call for papers Last year the graduate students at the University of Chicago initiated a journal called teh Journal of the Society for Social Research. We put out a first issue this summer (ask Laura Miller, or your graduate secretary for a copy.. some faculty (Gershon, Bud, Andy S. have it too)). We are putting out a second call for papers All papers are submitted, reviewed and l and editorial decisions are made by graduate students in the social sciences/humanities. This forum is a good way to become introduced to 'peer review' an oftne not so friendly process... Our deadline will be January 30. Please contact me if you have any questions (if you decide to publish with us, you can retain the rights to polish your article and publish it elsewhere.. as others have done) Thankx, Sudhir Venkatesh (email: stdvenk@bambam.uchicago.edu) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 10:14:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:13:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:13:04 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 12:37:10 EST From: Steve Harvey Subject: Response to Laura, and addition to Dan To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU John Maynard Keynes has another winning quote, which is one of my favorites: "Men(sic) will do the rational thing, but only after exploring all other alternatives." To Laura: I have to admit that I haven't studied the particulars of NAFTA and its immediate effects, therefore I can't answer in that vein. But, I would contest your distinction between the "theoretical" and the "real." We always and only understand reality through theoretical constructs ("ideologies", "religions", "scientific paradigms", etc.). Our relationship to (understanding of) the world around us is always cognitively mediated. So, when discussing a policy, or any particular choice, we should invoke all the tools we have at our disposal. For instance, if I'm traveling North on the Interstate and want to turn West onto another road, I will come to a sign that will point me to a ramp that branches off to the East! Do I say, "hey! I want to go WEST! The *real* and immediate effects of my following this sign is that I end up going EAST! Therefore, this is the wrong thing to do," or do I utilize the complex cognitive construct which we have collectively developed which, among other things, suggests that the ultimate result of my following the exit sign is to place me on the Westward road? Now, not only theoretically, but historically as well, the loosening of intra- and inter- national trade barriers has contributed BOTH to the total production of wealth in the areas concerned (even in the underdeveloped nations, in which economic growth is occurring at faster rates than in the developed countries -except in sub-Saharan Africa- and at faster rates than anywhen else in their history. This isn't the whole story or the only consideration, but it's a piece of the puzzle), AND to increased standards of living for "common workers." Disparities, rather than total growth rates, HAVE increased, such as between capitalists and workers, and between developed and underdeveloped nations, because the "base" at the upper poles are so much higher than at the lower that even slower growth rates yield more total growth. Now, absolutely, when trade barriers are lifted, protected groups suffer. Capital flight hurts the regions from which it flies, but it flies to where labor is cheaper, and puts money in otherwise empty pockets. I'm familiar with the critical analyses which see this as exploitative and, in a way it is. Capitalists exploit labor, no doubt about it (depending on how we define our terms). But that exploited labor none-the-less needs and desires those jobs. The particulars of NAFTA are certainly open to debate, and it may be that not every step toward global trade liberalization is a good one -if the form of the particular agreement carries too much other baggage (environmental irresponsibility, cutural deterioration, etc.), and I hope I'm not sounding as if I am declaring NAFTA either a panacea or necessarily a "good move." I'm just pointing out certain kinds of considerations of which, to my continual conster- tion, sociologists tend to be learnedly ignorant (and ideologically dismissive). I'm reluctant to make declarations about particular policy moves, even though there are times when my in-put, as a reasonably informed member of society, is essential. In this case, based on what little I know, i'm in favor of the agreement (even if a better free trade agreement could be designed, which is almost certain, a better one isn't on the table, as far as I know). More to the point, as a sociologist, I feel the responsibility to raise the issues that have gone un-raised. The final case for or against NAFTA should take into account BOTH the kinds of concerns that others have raised, and the kinds of dynamics that I have started to point out. As always, it's a subtle and complex world, and more than anything else, I want us, as sociologists, to remember to treat it as such. (sorry to sound so strident! Just a stylistic bad habit!). -steve harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 10:57:50 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:56:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:56:22 -0800 for Subject: ?????? To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 12:56:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" To Steve: I understand that we use the theoretical to interpret the real. But my point was more along the lines of, shouldn't we also use the real (empirical) to interpret the theoretical? If we are seeing the effects of the FTA of 1989 on Canada, why isn't it valid to question the ramifications of the NAFTA based on those experiences? You say that movement of capital into an area goes into the pockets of those that need it. I say, bologna! Maybe I am being concrete but I'd like examples of countries where these beneficial effects have supposedly occurred. From the reading I have done in this area, I believe that what we find in these instances is that a select few (elite) benefit; those who are at the bottom do not see this increase in wealth. Disparity increases, not decreases. What I am hearing in your argument, is that as long as there are some benefits, whether at the expense of others or not, to the exploited, then the exploitation is moral. Am I wrong? All in all , I think that there is a huge difference between what benefits a country's government and/or corporations and what benefits the people. By the very nature of the relationships between these structures, their interests are entirely different, perhaps antagonistic. I am not sure if I have clarified my points , or muddied them even further. ( muddying what should be clear is a talent of mine) I am trying to see the "big picture" and I admittedly have theoretical biases, but my main task is to gain insight from those that see the world differently than I do. Thanks, Steve, for trying to explain your views. I just hope I am not frustrating you with my inability to understand your points... Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 11:19:10 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:16:05 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:16:02 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 13:08:01 CST From: "Linda Andes " To: Subject: A request for descriptive subject lines Hi all! I know I haven't been contributing much, but as a very busy grad student & project administrator I don't always have enough time to even read all the postings on socgrad. Hence, my request: Since I just cannot read everything, a good descriptive subject line which gets carried through most of a thread REALLY helps me to identify what posts I'm interested in taking the time to read. Subjects like "No Subject" or "Response to so-and-so" or "?????" or "two left feet" don't really help me to distinguish whether or not the post is something I want to read! In fact, I routinely delete such posts without even looking at them --- soooooooo if you think you have something worthwhile to say, put a decent subject line on it so's I won't miss it! Thank you! Linda "grumpy wench from hell who's been answering the phone ALL DAY" Andes From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 11:42:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:39:04 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:38:54 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 14:08:40 EST From: Steve Harvey Subject: a couple of short rejoinders To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Laura- I won't rehash the debate, or try to persuade, but a couple of points need clarification. 1) when you suggest that I claimed that capital flying to underdeveloped regions "goes into the pockets of those who need it," your unnecessarily discarding information. It's not an either/or issue; it's not that capital EITHER goes into the pockets of those who need it, OR simply enriches the capitalists. Some small amount goes into empty pockets (why do you think underpaid workers accept the work in the first place? In spite of the pesistence of forced labor in some places, it is really the exception rather than the rule. Most is voluntary -though I've already said what I think of that distinction!), while huge amounts enrich the already rich. I'm not arguing that it's a just, fair, functional world. I'm arguing that the injustice, unfairness and dysfunctionalness can't be cured by avoiding the ongoing construction and refinement of social relations. 2) If you look at empirical measures of *absolute* as opposed to *relative* wealth, you'll find that direct foreign investment raises the standards of living of most people, even lower class, in the region. It also increases disparities, both within a nation and between nations. But the latter is a relative measure, while the former is an absolute measure. Both are relevant. Much of the literature provides extraordinarily biased views of these phenomena, in one direction or the other, by selectively presenting and ignoring these aspects of what's going on. I was trained as a Marxist political economist originally, and am familair with the critical analyses, and had pretty well considered them to be "on target" for some time. But the identification of injustices does not, by itself, either recommend or refute any particular policy. My ultimate agenda is the same as yours, I think. I'm talking about the real lives of real people also. I'm not suggesting that we should try to enhance the well being of abstract things like "nations" or "corporations." But the question remains, how best to enable creating more, and more far-reaching, "public goods." There are many issues involved; are we talking about trade-offs, in which not everyone can gain for there to be a net gain? Are we talking about "maximizing" the well-being of those least well off now, regardless of how the rest of the world population fares? If we do the latter directly, does it REALLY accomplish what we intended it to accomplish? I ask these questions not to suggest that I believe I know the answer: I truly believe these are subtle issues. But, SOMETIMES, things that benefit elites can benefit others too, MORE THAN THE CREDIBLE ALTERNATIVES! Elites DO have power, so the issue of trying to devise institutions which make their interests *coincide*, almost incidentally, with the interests of "the masses" is a salient consideration in enhancing the quality of human life. Democracy, market dynamics, ideologically cultivated notions of ethics and fairness, all are imperfect ways of partially accomplishing these things (I'm not suggesting that they were intentionally designed as such: there is no synoptic designer! But part of the beauty of social dynamics is that there is SOME impetus toward forging systems of mutually beneficial cooperation, counterbalanced by the impetus to "cut one's losses," or exploit trust and solidarity). Okay, that's enough from me! I know that these perspectives are considered to belong to "the enemy," but, as I see it, the world is subtle enough that both the critical perspectives that Laura and others have invoked, and this quasi-neo-classical perspective that I'm reintroducing to the discussion can have some validity, and the challenge becomes, not determining "which is right," but reconciling the "rightness" in both of them. -Steve From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 14:27:18 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 14:21:37 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 14:21:30 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 17:18:05 EST From: Alan Subject: NAFTA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU What I meant to say was that your prototypical "average" American would probabl y think about NAFTA in terms of its benefits for their particular area of resid ence. If my sarcasm wasn't picked up, I'm sorry. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 11 15:20:00 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 11 Nov 1993 15:17:38 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 11 Nov 1993 15:17:36 -0800 for Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 17:14:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Elizabeth H. Schaefer" Subject: A call for evidence To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I don't mean to press the issue. However, there seems to be a lack of data in this discussion of NAFTA and the Canadian/American agreement. What do we know about the statistics related to the Candadian/American agreement? I might be inclined toward Steve's argument if I had some numbers. Anyone? Thanks, Elizabeth From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 12 03:57:53 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 12 Nov 1993 03:52:27 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 12 Nov 1993 03:52:26 -0800 for To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU (The Whole Damn List) Subject: Re: NAFTA Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1993 03:53:44 -0800 From: Michael Lichter OK, there was a call for "descriptive subject lines". I hope this one is descriptive enough. I'd like to add a call for *preservation of subject lines*. If you reply to a message and the subject line isn't too unreasonable, *don't change it*! I've never seen a list where respondents were so eager to confuse readers by changing the Subject: without changing the subject. In an ideal world, a thread of discussion can be identified by identical (or nearly identical) subject lines. This both lets readers avoid discussions that don't interest them, and quickly find ones that do. Keep threads identifiable! There was also a call for statistics on NAFTA. I doubt these are precisely the ones asked for, but: Table 1: Canada, Mexico, and the United States, Selected Statistics. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- COUNTRY POP GNP PERCAP EXPORTS TO US IMPORTS FROM US ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Canada 25M $ 367B $13,000 $ 98B 78% $ 93B 69% Mexico 88M $ 126B $ 2,082 $ 21B 64% $ 13B 64% US 248M $4,500B $16,444 $321B -- $459B -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTES: Population figures are 1989 estimates. Per capita income (PERCAP) estimates are from 1984 except US from 1988 (Oops!). GNP is from 1987 except Mexico from 1986. Imports and exports are from 1987. "M" = "million" and "B" = "billion". SOURCE: 1990 World Almanac. Table 2: Top US Trading Partners by Percent of US Exports and Imports ------------------------------------- COUNTRY % US EXPORTS % US IMPORTS ------------------------------------- Canada 22% 17% Japan 10% 20% Mexico 6% 6% ------------------------------------- NOTE: Figures for 1988. SOURCE: 1990 World Almanac. STATISTICS These figures are old and probably not from the best source. I do have figures regarding direct foreign investment lying around somewhere, but without seeing them, I'd say that US direct investment in Canada is much greater than in Mexico. Canada and Mexico are not (yet?) significant trading partners and so capital flows between them are probably miniscule. In sum, Canada and Mexico are two of the US's three largest trading partners. Furthermore, the US dominates the foreign trade of both countries in a way not true for any other US trading partners. The US is an important market for both, and both are important US markets. The US dwarfs Mexico and Canada in population and GNP. Per capita income in Canada is similar to that in the US, as is per-capita GNP. Both Canada and the US have per-capita GNPs and incomes a magnitude greater than Mexico's. There is nothing in the European Community that compares with the disparity between the US and Canada on one side, and Mexico. This is not an agreement between equals. NAFTA The two key questions that have come up here are: "will NAFTA hurt US workers?" and "will NAFTA hurt Mexican workers?" Arguments offered here have been very general, and have also been based on the *idea* of "free trade", rather than on the specifics of the NAFTA agreement. I don't know the details of the agreement either, but I will try to be a bit more specific about the US-Mexican relationship. First, it should be clear that there is already a good deal of trade going on between the US and Mexico. There is also a fairly substantial amount of US direct investment in industry in Mexico -- $11.5 billion or about 2% of the $450 billion US 1991 total. Recent US involvement in the Mexican economy has increased greatly since Mexico relaxed its restrictions on foreign investment and repatriation of profits. (Mexico had previously required that any firm operating in Mexico be majority Mexican-owned, and had made shifting profits out of the country very difficult. Capitulation to international pressures resulting from Mexico's debt crisis led to the abolishing of these protectionary measures.) If NAFTA leads to increasing trade with Mexico and increasing investment in Mexico, it will be continuing (and probably accelerating) existing trends. Second, capital has been quite mobile over the past decade or so. US deindustrialization and the Globalization of Production (TM)/New International Division of Labor (TM) have taken place without free trade agreements. If US capital flight to Mexico gets stymied, it can always catch the red-eye to Singapore. Third, there is no such thing as "free trade". NAFTA is a couple thousand pages long, if I remember correctly. It is a comprehensive trade agreement which loosens or eliminates many trade barriers between the signatory countries. It deals with duties, defines "dumping", and sets the conditions of trade in ways that are not trivial housekeeping. Fourth, the structure of Mexican industry and of the Mexican capitalst class are critical. I have not seen a reasonable analysis of present-day Mexican class structure, so I won't speculate. I will say, however, that if the section of Mexican industry which meets domestic consumption needs is unable to survive US competition, then the positive effects predicted by Clinton and Salinas de Gotari are very unlikely. In his now-classic analysis of Latin American dependency, Andre Gunder Frank (_Capitalism and Underdevelopment in Latin America_, 1969) argues that underdevelopment is the result of the political dominance of export-oriented capitalists. These agriculturists, miners-owners, and commercial capitalists allied with colonizing countries against the industrial capitalists who were attempting to develop the internal economies of their Latin American nations. The industrialists required tariff protection which would have hurt the export-sector capitalists, whose welfare depended on free access to international markets. From this perspective, underdevelopment is the result of, rather than the lack of capitalist development -- it is the result of dependent capitalist development. If the sector of the Mexican economy producing for domestic consumption is too economically and/or politically weak, it will become a casualty of NAFTA, a victim of US imports and lack of state support. Without the continuing development of the internal economy, whatever wages free trade generates will tend to slip out of the Mexican economy and back into American hands. Up until recently, with the success of the Asian countries such as Korea and Taiwan, export-led development has had a dismal record. I frankly don't know how the cases of Korea and Taiwan relate to Mexico. An interesting Latin American case, however, is that of Puerto Rico (see Bonilla and Campos, 1981?, "A Wealth of Poor: Puerto Ricans in the New Economic Order", Daedelus). In 1978, 34% of direct US investment in Latin America was in Puerto Rico (compared to 11% for Mexico). After decades of pouring capital into Puerto Rico, 40% of all persons of Puerto Rican heritage live in the continental US, unemployment has continued to climb, and the population is increasingly impoverished and reliant on government transfer payments. Between 1969 and 1979, unemployment rose more or less in direct proportion to total US investments. Conditions worsened despite the migration of "excess population" and massive investment because (a) agriculture and domestic enterprise were wiped out through US competition, and (b) US investment tended to be in capital-intensive industry that employed few workers. Furthermore, extensive tax credits to investing corporations led to equally great compensating transfers from the Federal government to Puerto Rico. Fifth, Mexican workers can only compete for US workers' jobs to the extent that Mexican workers can perform US workers' jobs. Since US workers are on average much better educated than Mexicans, and that educational edge is often important in work, there is a great deal of work which is not readily transferable. To the extent that Mexicans -- whether as immigrants, or in firms within Mexico -- perform jobs which US workers don't want, they are not in competition with US workers. Of course, in many cases there are tradeoffs between labor and capital (i.e. labor-intensive vs. capital intensive production methods or capital instensive methods which reduce skill requirements) which could accrue to Mexico's benefit. If the US loses low-skill jobs to Mexico, but the US-Mexico trade continues to grow in the mold it has followed over the past few years (in 1992, US exports to Mexico were $40.6 billion, a 21% increase from 1991 while Mexican exports to the US amounted to $35.6 billion, a less impressive 12% increase from 1991), all but the least skilled US workers should benefit. (Of course, the least skilled are already those in the deepest trouble.) CONCLUSIONS To the extent that the domestic Mexican economy grows, it becomes a larger market for US products. This is what US economists use as the basis for their optimistic projections of happy days to come under NAFTA. I would like to believe, based on Mexico's earlier history of resistance to international capital, that the Mexican internal market will survive, and Mexico's economy will grow, and real wages will increase and poverty decrease and everything will turn out nice. In the short run, I doubt it -- especially if Mexico privatizes its oil monopoly and the US buys it up. In the long run -- who knows? With regard to US jobs, there will probably be a limited increase of competition in the short term, with unpredictable results in the long term. I frankly think that without domestic restrictions on capital flight, capital will go where it wants. NAFTA will facilitate movement to Mexico, and this will make movement possible for firms which previously would not have considered it, but I don't believe that this makes the NAFTA situation qualitatively different from what exists now. More productive than restrictions on capital flight would be programs to retrain workers and create new industries. Hope this is at least helpful in furthering discussion. Michael From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 12 10:35:33 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:30:43 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:30:38 -0800 for Date: Fri, 12 Nov 93 11:30:53 CST From: sam smucker Subject: Nafta To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I've enjoyed the discussion on Nafta and thought I'd add my own two cents. 1) As to who won the debate. Gore won before it started. The administrations goal was to identify anti-Nafta with Perot who really is unpopular with the population at large and even more so with undecided representatives. By the way, was it NPR that reported that Bentson sent out a press release claiming victory for Gore four hours before the debate started? My point is that Gore would have never debated Ralph Nader or some other legitmate opponent. 2)As to who benefits, I think it is true that these issues are incredibly complicated but that we should look at history to get a sense of the future. I think that Canada is a good example of a country that got creamed by a trade agreement, despite Gore's claims, there is little denying this. However, one Canadian scholar tells me that Canadians now blame every natioal problem on the trade agreement. I would expect the same thing to happen in the U.S. should it gothrough. (i.e. Buchanan or Perot in 96, you pick, oh I'm sorry is that the politics of fear?) As some people have pointed out to a large extent Nafta is a confirmation and extension of something that has already happened. I beleive that Mexico has already come in line with NAFTA leaving only the U.S. to drop barriers. The point is that NAFTA is something designed by the executive branches (the least democratic branches) with two elected presidents and a dictator largely designe d in conjunction with completely undemocratic structures like the world bank. It was written up in secret. Labor unions were given a mere 24 hours to look at the document before their criticism were due (this was Bush's doing). As sociologists I wonder if we shouldn't be theorizing about the possible decline in power of the nation state. For instance, under Nafta national environmental or labor laws can be challenged as unfair fetters on competition. Nafta doesn' t eliminate these laws but it provides provisions for their dismantling on a by need basis. Take the case of the Danish beer regulation whichprohibited German beer imports because they weren't in returnable bottles. German beer manfucatu rers challenged the law as an unfair to competition and won. Now they serve German beer in non-retunrable bottles. I think this would be O.K if there were poltical mechanizism that people could use to control capital at this internati onal level. BUT THERE AREN'T here or there. Obviously, I'm against the treaty. My basic assumption is that people's lives improve through social movements, unionization and any other forms of generating collective power. Mexican wages will not improve as long as unions are run by the government, activists and organizers are shot or intimidated. Take a look at Amenesty's 1991 report on Mexico _routine torture, targeting activists, political prisoners, ect. There is a reason that Mexico has low wag es and its not industrialization or "development" whatever that means. When I looked at development issues last year I was under theimpression that the data on growth largely correlated with what Micheal had to say about Puerto Rico. Increase in GDP largely correlates with increased inequality. Isn't this intuitively reasonable, more growth = more profits = top heavy wealth. Trade doesn't improve wages, people do. There is virtually no relation between increased profits and increased wages. Corporate profits have been increasing over the last 20 years but not wages (in the U.S.)(See Critical Pers pectives in Sociology). (The correlation is unionization and wages) I guess what I am suggesting is that if we look at this agreement from the point of view of political and social power, people everywhere are big losers. As sociologists I think we should ask questions like: The nation state: Permanent Fixture or In Historical Decline? If all these agreements go through (and I think they will, de facto if not de jure) what is the role of the nation state in the future? What other international institutions might develope base d on our knowledge of the nation state's development? Whew!!!! That was a mouthful. Time to go and enjoy Friday afternoon (study ing of course) I'll be back monday to take my probably well deserved intellect ual beating. Til Then. Sam in Chicago From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 12 13:30:44 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 12 Nov 1993 13:28:18 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 12 Nov 1993 13:28:13 -0800 for Date: Fri, 12 Nov 93 16:16:14 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: QUERY ABOUT TORONTO To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi fellow socgradders, I've followed the NAFTA debate with interest. I "do" development and political economy, so I've been interested in how you all define the issue, and determine your positions. I was wondering if anyone out there is familiar with the dept at Univ. of Toronto and would be willing to talk to me about it a little. I apreciate your help. Thanks, Joya Misra SOCAK663@EMUVM1.BITNET OR SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU ********************************************************************* Dept. of Sociology "Yet very frequently the 'world images' that Emory University have been created by 'ideas'have, like Atlanta, GA 30322 switchmen, determined the tracks along which action has been pushed by the dynamic of interest" - Max Weber From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 12 14:18:03 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:14:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:14:54 -0800 for Subject: The Real Deal (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:14:53 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Forwarded message: > From Gary_C._David@MTS.cc.Wayne.edu Fri Nov 12 11:23:10 1993 > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 93 12:22:56 EST > From: Gary_C._David@MTS.cc.Wayne.edu > To: lfertwag > Message-Id: <804604@MTS.cc.Wayne.edu> > Subject: The Real Deal Hello, I think that this was intended for the net, but inadvertently sent to only my e-mail address. Laura > > I think that Laura's comments on using the real to interpret our theorectical > foundations is right on. If we choose to sit in a theorectical vacuum > with constructs borne out of a laboratory environment, how do we know > whether we are close to representing reality? The problem with these > so-called debates (or was it a mutual press conference) is that when > did anyone start talking about reality. Political debate and reality > seem to be oxymorons. It is so hard to break through all of the > propaganda to get at what it all means. Is NAFTA going to cause the > end of the world? Probably not. Is it going to deliver all of the > things that the administration is promising? Definitely not. So then, > the reality of it all is probably in the middle. This deal will be > very beneficial to some, but at what cost to others. I guess a major > question is, "Are the costs to some worth the benefits to others?" > This just as much a moral argument as it is a factual one, and one I > can't really answer. > My Canadian $2.00 bill worth (sorry if that sound conceded) > Gary > From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 12 16:51:13 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:48:26 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:48:23 -0800 for Subject: Canadian socgradders To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1993 18:48:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello... Just a short post (not my usual rambling)... I was wondering where our Canadian colleagues stand on the issue of the NAFTA. I kept hoping some of you would join in the conversation; I think your input and insights, having already experienced the Free Trade Agreement, would be invaluable to the discussion. How 'bout it, any takers? Cheers, Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 06:03:51 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 05:59:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 05:59:49 -0800 for Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 08:36:43 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: NAFTA To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi guys. About NAFTA, I don't really want to get into the specifics of this agreement, since I am teaching it this semester in my development class and feel a little burned out. However I would like to suggest something. When Gary says: >This deal will be > very beneficial to some, but at what cost to others. I guess a major > question is, "Are the costs to some worth the benefits to others?" I completely understand the sentiment, but I think we need to be careful about the ways in which we frame these questions. Steve was right when he argued that our world is NOT a zero-sum game. By this I mean that benefit for some does not automatically mean costs for others. It's simply more complex than that, AND also impossible to quantify and measure these cost and benefit processes. In the U.S. we have a bad habit of telling those in developing nations that they are being exploited, and ignoring what they tell us about their situations. It's also important for us to remember that consequences will vary for the short-term and the long- term. In fact I think that the long term consequences of this agreement (particularly keeping in mind that this agreement is simply a clear statement of processes already beginning to occur, and that these processes will occur whether THIS particular agreement is passed or not) will be more "beneficial" for ALL the relevant actors than "costly." There's a centime and a rupee. joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 07:16:27 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 07:11:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 07:10:56 -0800 for Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 09:51:49 +0500 (EST) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd)[D To: CGH2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU On Tue, 2 Nov 1993 CGH2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU wrote: > > >> And in other fields, like corporations, there is a glass ceiling which keeps > >> women from making it to the top (with the exception of a few tokens). > >> > Over the past few years, I have seen the 'glass ceiling' move from > speculative description to a social fact. However, I have not seen an > occupational mobility study which demonstrates that the 'glass ceiling' does, > in fact, exist. > Perhaps someone who has read such an article could send me a reference or > two? > Jetaway (cgh2@psuvm) Dave. > As I understand it, "glass ceilings" keep women from moving into higher-level positions within _organizations_. Given the large variation in job/organizational settings within occupations (even detailed occupational classifications), I doubt you'd find such effects from an occupational mobility study. (See some of Baron and Beilby's early work on this; I can dig up cits if anyone's interested.) You might look at some studies of mobility within organizations. Kanter's work addresses the problems of blocked mobility, particularly as it effects women and minorities. I believe Jon Miller's Pathways in the workplace : the effect of gender and race on access to organizational resources (Cambridge University Pres, 1986) would be useful, although I haven't read it myself. As the spouse of a professional woman employed by a "not for profit" research organization with a "bullet-proof" glass ceiling, I can tell you that the processes which lead to this can be very, very subtle. Favored sons get opportunities and support, which helps them be successful, which then justifies their advancement. I hope that some of the organizational mobility studies can capture these processes. But then, all the big organizations are "getting small" these days... Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell Jim_Cassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 07:45:34 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 07:41:29 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 07:41:28 -0800 for Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 07:00:33 -0800 (PST) From: Janice Tanche Subject: Re: Canadian socgradders To: "Laura L. Fertwagner" On Fri, 12 Nov 1993, Laura L. Fertwagner wrote: > Hello... > Just a short post (not my usual rambling)... I was wondering where our > Canadian colleagues stand on the issue of the NAFTA. I kept hoping some of > you would join in the conversation; I think your input and insights, having > already experienced the Free Trade Agreement, would be invaluable to the > discussion. How 'bout it, any takers? I think we Canadians know very little about the Free Trade Agreement. (And I include myself in that.) The FTA was basically thrown at us and we had virtually no opportunity to question it or respond to it. Most Canadians practice a healthy scepticism with regard to agreements with the US, fearing being caught "in bed with an elephant." Canadians wanted discussion and debate before the agreement was signed and we didn't get it. We wanted assurances our resources and our culture were not on the line. It was at the very end of Mulroney's turn of office (as prime minister). An election was called and the FTA was made an issue along with Mulroney's relations with the US. (He is seen by some, perhaps most, as too sympathetic to American presidents.) He lost the popular vote, but won enough seats to form the government (something I believe cannot happen in the States), and immediately signed the FTA. When that term expired, his party, as you know, was drummed out. I suspect many Canadians are unhappy with the agreement because we've never been given the opportunity to discuss it, debate it, and accept or reject it. It was simply crammed through without without people having an opportunity to consider its potential consequences, and there has been little real discussion of it since then. tanche@unixg.ubc.ca From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 09:14:41 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 09:11:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 09:11:22 -0800 for From: Raymond B Familusi Subject: NAFTA/Canada To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 12:11:23 -0500 (EST) On Fri, 12 Nov 1993, Laura L. Fertwagner wrote: > Hello... > Just a short post (not my usual rambling)... I was wondering where our > Canadian colleagues stand on the issue of the NAFTA. I kept hoping some of > you would join in the conversation; I think your input and insights, having > already experienced the Free Trade Agreement, would be invaluable to the > discussion. How 'bout it, any takers? Ok, I'll take a bite. There has been some discussion of Canada in recent postings which is a healthy departure from the usual. Attending university in Michigan I often feel like the Canadian border is a few thousand miles west, down near my home in Calgary, rather than an hour or so away. This is because while here in the US (over generalization?) Canada becomes the great unknown, paid little attention in the media or in general discourse. In Canada, on the other hand, the media and popular culture is all in the USA's business - making the south an ongoing concern for Canadians. This is one social fact which frames the question of NAFTA and FTA, its relative rejection or acceptance, and the nature of the political debate which surrounds it in Canada (and the US). Secondly, political debates in Canada though reflecting a general concern (and indeed, rejection of) the FTA and NFTA, this sentiment is not uniform across the country but traces political, regional, and economic fault lines.On the Prairies, paticularly in the heart of Reform Party country (Alberta) there has always appeared to be a lot of support for FTA. This is not only because effective arguments have been made by spokespersons regarding the economic utility of "free trade" for Alberta's oil and agricultural trade, but also because (Alberta at least) is more disposed towards a closer relationship with USA. It is worthwhile to recall that Preston Manning (leader of the rightwing populist Reform Party) has drawn on American political/social history for analogies to describe the Canadian situation. In particular, the history of the Republican Party seems to fascinate Mr. Manning. Third, NAFTA is not a "free trade" agreement - and I would like to thank Michael Lichter for his contribution - but a bundle of rules and regulation that seek to change the terms of trade between Canada, Mexico, and the USA. The slogan "Free Trade" however is central to the debate because of its ideological utility - along with the "level playing field" etc. So while we may debate the economic and social benefits/demerits of free trade this is not a discussion of NAFTA or FTA - except in the most general of senses. A proper discussion of these trade agreements can only occur through a discussion of the specifics of their provisions.Which brings us back to Canada. What has turned the tide against FTA and NAFTA in Canada has been not only the conjunction of economic downturn and implementation of FTA, but also the concern with specific elements of the agreements which impact Canadian social legislation. There is a widespread belief that not only have US businesses and regions benefited at the expense of Canadians, but that the US government threatens Canadian soveriegnty (spelling?). Recent attention by the US government to strengthing the "cultural access" provisions of the FTA have reinforced these fears. Ironically, the US sought to strengthen these provisions not because it was all that concerned about US companies gaining access to the Canadian market, but because it wished to send a message to Europe that Americans were serious about imposing trade sanctions. (And so we find ourselves back at my first point). There's more that comes to mind, but let me leave it at that for now. A word to other posters - please use paragraphs, it's difficult to read otherwise. Raymond => languishing in Lansing. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 15:31:35 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 15:30:18 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 15:30:16 -0800 for Subject: ND-FSU scores and nothing else To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 17:30:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello guys! I hate to say I told you so, but ... Notre Dame DID win, didn't they??? From dreary Nebraska, Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 18:21:28 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 18:20:20 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 18:20:18 -0800 for From: BREKHUS@zodiac.rutgers.edu Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 21:20:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Notre Dame's victory To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU O.K. Laura you win!! But I still like Bigdog's pick if they meet again in a bowl game at a neutral site. By the way, how does Notre Dame get away with only playing 4 of their 11 games in someone else's home stadium? Wild prediction for next week: Notre Dame, Florida State, and Miami will all lose next week. As for the Michigan/Ohio State game: Michigan 17 Ohio State 13 Causing a celebration and rioting in Madison Wisconsin...32 crushed. Wayne "not a great football predictor" Brekhus From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 13 18:48:33 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 13 Nov 1993 18:47:50 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 13 Nov 1993 18:47:49 -0800 for From: BREKHUS@zodiac.rutgers.edu Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 21:47:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: speaking of victories...how bout New Jersey's new governor?? To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Sorry to hog all this E-mail space, but this posting gets contagious. I'm just curious, how much national press has the post-election scandal here in New Jersey, received in other parts of the country? For anyone not familiar with the case: It seems Ed Rollins (the campaign manager for governor-elect Whitman) openly bragged that he spent half a million dollars in payoffs to black and urban leaders or their charities to encourage them to suppress the "black vote" in the state. If I understand right, the money was allegedly funnelled to their favorite charities, in return for black ministers not to encourage people in their neighborhoods to vote. Anyone care to comment? "Wayne" From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 14 10:49:26 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 14 Nov 1993 10:47:57 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 14 Nov 1993 10:47:53 -0800 for From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: nafta To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1993 13:47:15 -0500 (EST) For anybody who's been following the discussion about NAFTA, the CBC is hooking up with American Public Radio and a station in Mexico, for a discussion of NAFTA, on their regular Sunday program, Cross Country Check-up, a phone-in program, which usually also has lots of 'experts' speaking about issues. I'm not sure what time it starts, since I rarely hear the whole program, but I think it's 4.00 PM, possibly 5.00, Toronto time. Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:53:46 GMT sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 09:50:29 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 09:50:22 -0800 for From: S-ENDER%bss1.umd.edu%UCSD.EDU@Sdsc.BITnet via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931115124821.640; To: socgrad%UCSD.EDU@Sdsc.BITnet Date: 15 Nov 93 12:48:18 EDT Subject: the social psychology of thanksgiving from another post are some concerns about if instructors are canceling wednesday-before-thanksgiving-classes...i teach soc social psych and am toying with lecturing on the sociology or social psychology of thanksgiving...an ideas out there? any cites? morten `poultry science envy' ender note: remember when you first went home a vegetarian? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 06:42:30 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:21:00 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:20:55 -0800 for Subject: Re: ND-FSU scores and nothing else (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:20:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Forwarded message: > From BREID@KSUVM.KSU.EDU Mon Nov 15 10:16:29 1993 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 08:37 CST > From: Bruce > Subject: Re: ND-FSU scores and nothing else > In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat 13 Nov 1993 17:30:15 -0600 (CST) > To: "Laura L. Fertwagner" > Message-Id: <01H5C85EI7ZW003F0T@crcvms.unl.edu> Hello all, Another of those "meant for the net but delivered to only me" messages. > > I am curious whether other socgradders find it discouraging and time > consuming to delete messages about sporting events. > I for one would like to keep sports talk off the network. If sports is > your "bag" then I would like to ask those posting these messages to do it > through their personal mailers. > From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 05:18:53 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:55:38 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:55:33 -0800 for Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 14:54:11 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Anyone From KSU? To: Socgrad list I'm trying to locate (via E-mail) anyone connected with KSU. Thanks. I understand there is someone named Brenda on the list from there, and I saw Bruce's comment about football, so THEY could reply to me...... SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 15 20:59:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 13:35:27 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 13:35:19 -0800 for Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 16:34 EST From: "Pamela M Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: controversy over sports scores (re: Laura's forwarded mess.) When I originally got information about this network, it was described as 'a forem for topics of general interest to Sociology graduate students.' I think we can all agree that there is hardly anything of 'general' interest to everyone. For the most part, I think that what determines general interest is simply the amount of discussion it gets. If members of the net feel Nafta is important, then we discuss it. Similarly, if enough people feel that discussion of college football is important, then it is legitimate. We are, after all, at colleges and most colleges do have football. Therefore the link, although tenuous, is there. (I think the link to Nafta is just as tenuous, by the way, and I haven't heard any complaints about that discussion) If no Sociology grad students felt that football was important, than the original post would have just 'drifted away.' This has happened in the past on other subjects. We have discussed the importance of clear subject lines (and I hope mine was one) and I think they expose a compromise. Perhaps I work on a very simple email system but it is not that much trouble to delete messages - if subject lines are clear then people can ignore the ones they don't like. Trying to control what is of interest to sociology graduate students by indicating what SHOULD BE important, rather than just letting what IS important develop, is bad for the forem (in my humble opinion) UPAMMP@unc.oit.unc.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 15 20:57:43 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:05:42 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:05:35 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931115170344.352; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 15 Nov 93 17:03:41 EDT Subject: no norms is the best norm i agree with pam...let's keep the open in `open forum' and the general in `general' information...i don't mind reducing cognitive dissonance with my deletion toggle...we've got enough control in our life...free `electronic' speech for everyone... ...i remind you of my joke about the guy/gal who went to the general store and couldn't find anything specific... morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 15 17:15:35 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:58:21 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:58:18 -0800 for Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 17:57:04 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Pam's comments To: Socgrad list I totally support Pam in what she says about topics, and subject lines.... She even puts it in lanuage that I understood on the first time through! More power to you Pam!!!! SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 15 19:41:30 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 15 Nov 1993 19:38:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 15 Nov 1993 19:38:22 -0800 for Date: Mon, 15 Nov 93 21:35:55 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: KSU clarified! To: Socgrad list I have to admit to a mistake. Something I do pretty well, since I have lots of practice. Some seem to have gotten the point behind my message about KSU. Others might get it off center, due to my general nature. I meant Kansas State University when I asked for people from KSU. Sorry for any errors I have caused. no one lost any limbs did they? I hope not. I am not beavis or butthead. Though they are cool. FIRE FIRE! Skee p.s. THanks to all those who have helped me in my search!!! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 07:04:05 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:03:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:03:00 -0800 for From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd)[D To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:02:34 -0500 (EST) > Subject: football discussion > To: socgrad@ucds.edu > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 09:44:43 -0500 (EST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Length: 597 > > Hi, I don't feel strongly either way about the football if messages > clearly indicate the subject matter,(sorry about the header on this letter). However, I would just like to point out that this is a North American net and discussion about football is unlikely to be of interest to a Canadian audience. Shouldn't we be concerned with facilitating the impression that the discussions on this net are of relevance to Canadian sociologists as well as Americans? I'm not denying anyone's right to discuss football, but couldn't it be done privately? Along the same lines, re: Thanksgiving, wasn't that holiday in October? (just kidding). > From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 09:18:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 09:13:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 09:13:42 -0800 for From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: football discussions To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 12:13:10 -0500 (EST) Hi, I don't feel strongly about the football if messages clearly indicte the subject matter. However, I would just like to point out that this is a North American net and discussions about American university football is unlikely to be of interest to a Canadian audience - and may make them feel that their being overlooked. Shouldn't we be concerned with facilitating the impression that the discussions on the net are of relevance to Canadian sociologists, as well as Americans? I'm not denying anyone's inalienable right to discuss football, but couldn't it be done privately? Along the same lines, re: Thanksgiving, wasn't that holiday in October? (just kidding). From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 11:03:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:00:15 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:00:11 -0800 for Tue, 16 Nov 93 18:59:58 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Tue, 16 Nov 1993 18:59 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 13:51:50 EST From: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: football-nafta debate To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu (football-nafta debate) Hi all. I wanted to comment on Pam and her supporter's views on the appropriatness of football scores and nafta discussion on the net. Let me first say that I am not particularly bothered by either. But, let me also say that I do think we could "judge" the nafta discussion to be more suitable for this net. At least the nafta discussion is sociological. I would like to hear some sociological analysis of football as a game, a spectator sport, as a means to draw people together via e-mail etc... In my mind that would be more "appropriate." I know I'll get some arguments--but that's my opinion--and I don't think that stating it should inhibit the nature of this forum. Comments? P.S. Would this also be of greater interest to Roxburgh--the Canadian sociologist? Heather Bulan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 12:35:38 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 12:33:57 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 12:33:54 -0800 for From: BREID@KSUVM.KSU.EDU Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 14:18 CST Subject: Football To: socgrad I did not intend to have my personal message addressed to Pam forwarded to the network. I apologize for the inconvenience, for by being forwarded once again the network is being clouded with personal conversation. I simply did not feel it necessary to post sports scores on the network unless your local newpapers no longer have a sports section for all to read. If sport sections are a thing of the past then by all means post till your heart's content. A ripple in a pond is present long after it is no longer visible. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 13:05:11 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 13:03:58 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 13:03:55 -0800 for Subject: Re: Bruce's football message To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 15:03:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello all, Before ther is any further confusion over this junk, *I*, not Pam, was the one who sent Bruce's so-called "personal" message to the net. When I read it, I assumed that since Bruce had no reason to single me out, and the message sounded to me like it was meant for the net (Iwonder what other socgradders think about....) , that he had meant to send the message to the net but had inadvertently sent it to only me. I did not mean to embarass him in any way. My apologies to all concerned. Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 13:20:19 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 13:18:37 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 13:18:34 -0800 for Date: Tue, 16 Nov 93 15:13:44 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: DON'T READ, ITS ABOUT SPORTS To: Socgrad list Okay, here is how I feel... I don't hold a thing against Laura. The message was generic enough that she had no way to tell it was meant just for her. I also wonder how bruce singled her out. There were others who spoke more loudly of football. In response to bruce's ideas, NOT BRUCE HIMSELF, I think that USA TODAY also covered the NAFTA debate. So, why should some have to go to the newspaper for the info they desire, while others can talk about the issue of football (don't they play football in Canada by the way). It has become more an issue of freedom to me, than one of football. If I want to try and discuss people who burp on tuesdays, I should be feel to try. If no responses, too bad for me. Now, if I send 100 messages about the people I saw belchh on last tuesday, than...... An issue of lines again. SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 14:10:33 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:07:34 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:07:32 -0800 for Subject: New Ideas! To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 16:07:30 -0600 (CST) From: Drew Regan Hello, I am a first year grad student, and I am experiencing the same difficulties that most others are experienceing in grad school. #1. Adjusting to a new environment. How did some of you adjust to this new environment? #2. What are some of the ways that you use to focus on a research question? I'd really like some feedback from those who are or have experienced these difficulties. Basically, I'd like to hear how most of your graduate school process has gone. It would be helpful to me, and I'm sure others who listen to this network. I'll ask more questions later when I feel more creative. Thanks. Drew From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 16:59:42 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 16:58:26 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 16:58:15 -0800 for Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 19:56:29 -0500 (EST) From: James Gillett Subject: SPORTS - WILL IT EVER END! To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Fellow graduate students, Until this evening I have only read the items on SOCGRAD. I feel, though, that I must respond - as a Canadian and a sport sociologist. First, as a Canadian, I want to let people know they we do play football, on a number of levels. Professionally we have the CFL which has a tradition dating back about 75 years or so. SKEE in a previous message mentioned that Canadians do not play football. I'm not offended, I just wanted people south of the border to know. There is a lot about the US that I don't know. Second, as a sport sociologist, I am used to having sport issues marginalized within an academic context. Physical education departments have been struggling with this since they first opened their doors. Sport is not taken seriously (or critically) by people who feel they have better things to do. I think it is important that we talk about sports. I also think as sociologists we, from time to time, could look at sport in our discussions with an analytical eye - placing sport within the wider socal and political context that it is played, or represented. Hell ... I'd probably contribute again. Take care, James Gillett Hamilton, Ontario "Home of the Hamilton Tiger Cats" From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 17:59:37 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 17:57:45 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 17:57:43 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931116205525.256; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 16 Nov 93 20:55:22 EDT Subject: Re: New Ideas! in response to drew, "...experiencing the same difficulties that most others are experienceing in grad school. #1. Adjusting to a new environment." first, you need to define the environment, is it the regional, the intellectual and/or the interpersonal environment (among many others) which is(are) new and requires adjusting to? secondly, i assume the "adjustment" is based on expectations that were formed during those challenging, successful and rewarding undergraduate days...else, why would you be in our midst?...the major difference between undergrad and grad, i think, is socialization...undergraduate education is a relatively limited source of secondary socialization...graduate school is a subtle resocialization...how have i managed? ...when i simply can't fight or flee, i flow... morten this reference is not for everyone egan, j.m. (1989) graduate school and the self: a theoretical view of some negative effects of professional socialization. teaching sociology, 17, 200-208. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 20:12:28 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 20:08:51 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 20:08:49 -0800 for Subject: Call for Papers, GENERAL (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 22:08:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Forwarded message: >From ipe@csf.colorado.edu Tue Nov 16 17:06:58 1993 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 15:53:05 -0700 Originator: ipe@csf.colorado.edu From: Tom Hall Subject: Call for Papers, GENERAL X-Comment: INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL ECONOMY From: IN%"FHI00DRG@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU" "Donna Gabaccia" 16-NOV-1993 17:17:31.51 Subj: SSHA Call for Papers Please post further to any sociology/ etc. e-lists that may be interested CALL FOR PAPERS , SOCIAL SCIENCE HISTORY ASSOCIATION ATLANTA, GEORGIA, OCTOBER 13-16, 1994 The Social Science History Association will hold its 19th annual conference in Atlanta, Georgia from Oct. 13 through 16 1994 at the Atlanta OMNI--CNN Center. The SSHA is the leading interdisciplinary association in the social sciences. Its annual conference attracts historians, economists, sociologists anthropologists, political scientists, and geographers. Graduate students are encouraged to attend and to appear as panelists. Those interested in a poster exhibit, panel session, or paper presentations should send proposals to the appropriate network of the Program Committee. Proposals should describe the subject and format of the presentation (include poster, panel, and paper titles), and provide names, departments, institutional affiliations, addresses, phones, and when possible fax and e- mail, for ALL participants. Panel Sessions. Panels last two hours. Organizers should ensure that the format leaves ample time (at least 30 minutes) for discussion. A panel with four (fifteen minute) presentations and one discussant requires reporting results rather than reading of papers. Roundtables and "meet the author" panels are encouraged. Participants may present only one paper. SSHA prefers interdisciplinary panels. Poster Exhibits. The SSHA began poster exhibits several years ago. Poster sessions permit authors to display information about their research project on an easel and to interact with conference participants. The SSHA provides authors with cork boards and easels for displaying work. Posters should be printed on 8.5x11 (or other standard) sheets in a large font size (at least 15 point for text; larger for titles). They should begin with an abstract of 250 words. A "meet the author" session for each poster will be scheduled. All participants on SSHA programs are required to pre- register for the conference in the spring after their proposals have been accepted. Normally, participants join SSHA. The final deadline for receiving poster, paper, and panel proposals is February 15, 1994. Organizers are encouraged to contact members of the Program Committee earlier and to submit preliminary proposals by January 15, 1994. PROGRAM COMMITTEE CO-CHAIRS: Craig Calhoun, International Studies, UNC at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3195; phone: 919 962 3094; fax 919 962 2262; e- mail: calhoun@unc.edu Donna Gabaccia, Dept. of History, UNC at Charlotte, Charlotte, NC 28223 phone: 704 547 2769; fax: 704 547 3218; e-mail: fhi00drg@unccvm NETWORK CHAIRS CRIMINAL JUSTICE/LEGAL: Joanne Klein, Humanities and Social Sciences, Univ. S. Carolina at Sumter, 200 Miller Road, Sumter, SC 29150-2498; phone: 803-775-6341; fax: 803-775-2170; e-mail joannek@uscsumter.uscsu.scarolina.edu CULTURE: Mabel Berezin, Sociology, 3718 Locust Walk, Univ. of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6299 phone 215-898-9060; fax 215-573-2081; e-mail:mberezin@MCNeil.sas.upenn.edu ECONOMICS: Gregory Clark, Economics, Univ. of California, Davis, CA 95616 phone 916 752 9242 fax 916 752 9382 EDUCATION: Mustafa Emirbayer, Sociology, New School for Social Research, 65 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10003 phones: 212 229- 5850; 212 255 5297; fax 212 229 5315 FAMILY/DEMOGRAPHY: Richard Wall, Cambridge Group, History of Population and Social Structure, 27 Trumpington Street, Cambridge CB2 1QA; fax (0) 223 333 183; e-mail: campop@phx.cam.ac.uk HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY: Tom Hall, DePauw University, Greencastle, IN 46135-0037 office: 317-658-4519 home: 317-362-0325 fax: 317 658 4177; e-mail: thall@depauw.edu LABOR: Leon Fink, Dept. of History, Univ. of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3195 phone 919-962-8080 fax 919 962 1403 e- mail: LFINK@UNC.VXI.oit.UNC.edu METHODS/THEORY: Andrew Newman, Dept. of Sociology, 300 Bricker, 190 N. Oval Mall, Ohio State Univ., Columbus, OH 43210-1353; office 614-292-5658 or 292-6681; home: 614-846-8189 fax: 614- 292-6687; e-mail: AEN@ohstsoca.sbs.ohio-state.edu AND Marc Ventresca, Dept. of Bus. Admin., Univ. of Illinois, 106 Commerce West, Champaign, IL 61802; phone 217-333-4504; fax 217-244-7969; e-mail: Marcjv@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu MIGRATION/IMMIGRATION: Alice O'Connor, Center for Study of Urban Inequality, University of Chicago, 1313 East 60th Street, Chicago, IL 60637; office: 312 702 0894; Fax: 312 702-8822 POLITICS: Jack Goldstone, Sociology, Univ. of California, Davis, CA 95616; phone 916-752-8220 fax: 916-756-2876 AND Jack Reynolds, Div. of Behavioral and Cultural Sciences, Univ. of Texas at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78285-0655; phone: 210- 691-5708 e-mail jreynold@pclan.utsa.edu RACE/ETHNICITY: Earl Lewis, Center for Afro-American Studies and African Studies, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; office: 313 763 5526; fax: 763 0543; e-mail: earllewis@umich.edu; George Sanchez, Dept. of History, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; office: 313 763 7861; fax: 313 747 4881; e-mail: george.sanchez@umich.edu RELIGION: Matthew Moen, Political Science, 5754 North Stevens, Univ. of Maine, Orono , ME 04469 office: 207 581 1885; fax: 207 581 1953 RURAL: Vernon Burton office: History, University of Illinois, 309 Gregory Hall, 810 S. Wright St., Urbana, IL 61801 217 333- 4327; fax: 217 333 2294 e-mail vburton@ncsa.uiuc.edu STATES, SOCIETY, POLITICS: Jack Goldstone, Dept. of Sociology, Univ. of California, Davis, CA 95616; phone 916-752-8220 fax: 916-756-2876 URBAN: Ronald Bayor, History, Technology and Society, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia 30332, phone: 404 894 6834; fax: 404-853-0535; e-mail: rb2@prism.gatech.edu WOMEN/GENDER: Ruth Crocker, Dept. of History, 7040 Haley Center, Auburn University, Auburn, AL 36849 office: 205 844 4360; home: 205 826 3444; fax 205 844 6673 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 16 21:04:20 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:01:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:01:29 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 00:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" Subject: Football Comment To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@sdsc.edu Good morning everyone. Hope your slumber was peaceful. I have been feeling guilty about sending in my ND-FSU score last week and felt it was time that I broke my chains of silence. The first criticism of the posting of football scores came after I posted my prediction of the ND-FSU score (and, incidentally, I didn't post anything else with that message)--so I kinda felt "guilty" because, perhaps, the criticism was aimed toward me. If it was maybe it was deserved. But, after reading all the defenses for freedom of speech on here, I have decided that I have a right to post whatever I want to. Just as you have the right to delete whatever you want to. You even have the right to post messages that might appear to censor what others should or could post. In fact, some criticisms may cause some of us to be permanently silent or even unsubscribe from the board! Think about that the next time a student doesn't talk or contribute to a class discussion... In what ways have they been "silenced" in the past? What trauma have they endured that they can no longer express what they are feeling or thinking? Think how easy it is for all of us as future (or current) professors to destroy someone's self-image with a simple, but destructive comment or criticism? This posting has led to another question I have for all you SOCGRADERS out there: Do you have any research on "silencing" of students? (What I've discussed above, essentially.) I'm desparately needing anything you have on this topic. Any help would be much appreciated. I will probably post this last portion again in a week or so with a more appropriate message line...but if you got this far in this message...thanks! Del. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 00:18:10 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 00:16:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 00:16:34 -0800 for Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:59:28 -1000 (HST) From: Andrew Ovenden Subject: F'ball Comment & Sport sociology question To: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" As a graduate student and a freelance journalist, I am strictly against censorship, even football scores on Socgrad. However, the argument that it doesn't take very long to delete messages that don't interest one is not very convincing when one has to delete a whole string of them. Sociologically speaking, junk mail (direct mail advertising, that is), telephone solicitations, people who stand unnecessarily close to you in the elevator are all to some degree violations of personal space. If you are about to post an e-mail football score, just remember that there may be someone out there who will be just as annoyed that you cluttered up their computer screen as you are from having to read this note. Incidently, a chap in my department whose interest just happens to be the sociology of sport lamented to me the other day that people don't seem to take him seriously. Although Hawaii doesn't have any professional sports outside of Sumo, and Winter League baseball (Oh, and the Pro Bowl), I suggested to him that he make inquiries about graduate soc. programs on the mainland that do have sport specialties. Any suggestions? (Is anyone even still reading this?) Thanks, Andrew Ovenden From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 06:26:03 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 06:24:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 06:24:22 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 09:02:10 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: SILENCE, NET-ETHICS, NEW IDEAS To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hello all, Del asked for any cites on "silencing" of students. One article that I have personally found very useful in my teaching-work is by Amanda Konradi (1993, "Teaching about Sexual Assault: Problematic Silence and Solutions," _Teaching Sociology_, 21(Jan):13-25. I like the piece and think it can be applied to much more than just teaching about sexual assault. One of the things that Konradi argues is that silence is an important indicator, people are often silent due to a perceived lack of power and an unwillingness to contribute to one's own oppression. These things flitted through my mind as we talked about who posts and why people don't post a little more than a month ago. Konradi gives practical suggestions for dealing with this issue. One of her most salient points is the need to develop a set of ground rules about respecting each other and giving each other space. I have been reluctant to comment on the norm-setting about football scores and the like, because I think we're simply engaging in identifying our space. We did quite a lot of this at the beginning of the net (remember R1JSE?) and it's a worthy endeavour. It's fine that we have discussions about this and for people to disagree. However, I do feel that an important point is that we treat each other with respect. Nastyness is not a norm I am willing to accept. Enough preaching. About the "new ideas," I think it would be nice if we gave grad school issues a systematic treatment. I know that I often thought of quitting my first year of grad school, and now I find it hard to think of leaving. Something changed somewhere in there...I have a feeling it did for many of you as well. You know Drew, I always tell the new grad students here that 1st year (at least here) is the hardest it gets in terms of feeling uncertain. You may work harder every year, but you never have the same kind of emotional stress (though you do have different kinds...) Joya Misra SOCAK663@EMUVM1.BITNET OR SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU ********************************************************************* Dept. of Sociology Emory University "Just because I dress like this, doesn't mean Atlanta, GA 30322 I'm a communist" - Billy Bragg From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 07:46:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 07:46:04 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 07:46:03 -0800 for From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: adjusting to grad school To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 9:46:00 CST One of my professors told my cohort in our first year that grad school is about making the transition from being good students (something we had clearly mastered already) to being scholars. That really helped me to understand what my mission was in grad school--to focus on developing my own personal intellectual agenda, and stop just trying to please people for good grades. Karen From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 08:04:46 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:02:37 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:02:32 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 10:49:36 EST From: Steve Harvey Subject: First year grad studenting To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi, guys. My advice to first year grad students is always "maintain perspective." Many aspects of our lives confront us as huge and foreboding burdens which threaten to bury us beneath their massiveness. Blink a couple of times, squint your eyes, and remember that, as Dan quoted Keynes as saying, "in the long run, we're all dead." We're born, we live, and we die. That can be a very liberating fact to bear in mind! When people are facing not-so-serious troubles blown out of proportion, I like to say "It's just life." Breathe deep, chant the serenity prayer a few times (in spite of it having been anexed by the 12-step crowd, it's still a little gem of wisdom as far as I'm concerned!), and go out and have a little fun now and then. The world won't stop spinning if you do, and you might find that grad school isn't all THAT daunting after all! President of the "What? Me, stress?" Society, Steve harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 08:52:09 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:42:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:42:21 -0800 for via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931117102238.960; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: "Don Duggan" Date: 17 Nov 93 10:22:25 EDT Subject: sub socgrad From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 12:43:38 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:37:23 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:37:14 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 0758; Wed, Date: 17 Nov 1993 12:34:47 CST From: To: Subject: Appropriate topics/Sociology of Sport I have read much discussion on the list pertaining to the appropriateness of certain post or topics. I propose that we form a committee to deal with these issues. This committee would consist of five people. All posts, or ideas for posts would be sent to this committee first before being sent to the list. The committee would decide whether the post was appropriate for the list, and would make any editorial changes that might make it more appropriate, such as adding clarifying phrases, deleting inappropriate comments, etc. This would save us all the hassle of reading things, or deleting things, we don't think are appropriate for the list. I think it would be wonderful, and something that would soon be copied on other lists. Let's not hold back, but be on the cutting edge of academic evolution. Are you with me? (much cheering) From: James Gillett Subject: SPORTS - WILL IT EVER END! >>Canadian football stuff deleted<< >Second, as a sport sociologist, I am used to having sport issues >marginalized within an academic context. Physical education departments >have been struggling with this since they 1st opened their doors. Sport >isn't taken seriously(or critically) by people who feel they have better >things to do. I think it is important that we talk about sports. I also >think as sociologists we, from time to time, could look at sport in our >discussions with an analytical eye - placing sport within the wider >socal and political context that it is played, or represented. As a sport sociologist, I have been confronted by similar situations. I have decided that sociology of sport will not be taken seriously unless the sociology part is prominent, rather than the sport part. For example sport organization studies have been well recieved. Policy applications also are fairly well received. One thing I have noticed is that often sport sociology seems quite frivolous. Unless this frivolousness (frivolity?) is replaced with scientific endeavor, we will continue to not be taken seriously. This is frustrating since sport is just as appropriate as education, gender, organizations, race, etc. to be studied in a sociological way. From: Andrew Ovenden Subject: F'ball Comment & Sport sociology question >>Junk Mail stuff deleted<< >incidently a chap in my department whose interest just happens to be the >soc. of sport lamented to me the other day that people don't seem to >take him seriously. Although Hawaii doesn't have any professional sports >outside of Sumo, and Winter League baseball (Oh, and the Pro Bowl), I >suggested to him that he make inquiries about graduate soc. programs on >the mainland that do have sport specialties. Any suggestions? (Is anyone >even still reading this?) There is a sociology of sport professional association. It is called the North American Society for the Sociology of Sport (NASSS). The most recent meeting was in Ottawa the first week in November. Quite a pleasant time. There is also a sociology of sport mailing list. If these are of interest to anyone, please email me and I will send more information, as I don't have time right now. Dave From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 13:17:02 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:10:58 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:10:52 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 15:53:43 EST From: Steve Harvey Subject: Editorial committee...? To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU With all due respect to Dave's well-intended suggestion, I vote an emphatic "Nay!" to the notion of implementing an editorial board! I've sat out the discussion on appropriate postings because... it seems like a pretty trivial issue to me. If people want to make noise about all the noise on the list, so be it. Vent away. But let's not even toy with this notion of assigning "gate keepers" to decide what does and does not belong! Sure, the journals play that game, and for good (though debatable) reason: They aspire to be a forum for refined sociological analyses, and nothing less. Yet how many of us have lamented that a good, though undeveloped, idea must go unheard, unless and until its author (or a personal acquaitance of its author) chooses to develop it? Here we have the opportunity to let those poorly edited (often -ahem- paragraphless) stray musings find there way into the discourse. Why not? Let's reserve the institutionalization of limits for that point at which the lack of limits becomes too costly to bear, and not resort to such measures prematurely. Ramblin' Steve harvey@uconnvm From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 13:33:33 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:30:20 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:30:15 -0800 for From: S-SCHUBERT@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931117162829.384; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 17 Nov 93 16:28:26 EDT Subject: ugh, football dear socgradders, i cast my ballot against any mention of football (or football scores, football players, or anyone who has ever played football) on the network. however, i'd sure like to get some talk of basketball going! is carolina due for another title? as always, dan schubert From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 13:40:32 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:34:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:34:24 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 16:11:29 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Committee on Appropriate Topics (CAT) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Comrades -- What a great idea! The CAT could guarantee the sociological relevance of all the messages we get from Socgrad. We could even have a subcommittee which checked spelling, usage of terms and paragraphing. Another subcommittee could keep tabs on how much people were contributing, rewarding big posters and encouraging small posters. There might be need for special subcommittees for different topics too, since we intellectuals can get pretty specialized and the jargon can sometimes be hard to make sense of unless your in that area. Consistently rejected posters could be referred to as the CAT having their tongue. Once a month we could have an open forum called CATNIP days. Editorial delays could be explained away as CATNAPS. Offending snippets that the CAT had removed from posted notes could be assembled and posted periodically as FURBALLS. Subcommittees could be called litters. Posts that are obviously destined to be eaten by the CAT would be CATCHOW. The disk on which the CAT saved posts would be the CAT BOX. Once elected, CAT members would serve until voted out, but that would have to happen nine times before they were really out. If cliques formed among the CAT members these would be referred to as CAT Sects. The CAT would give a report to the net every month. Months when the CAT had no tale to tell would be called MANX months. I think that five people may not be enough for the CAT. For one, there will be a lot of work. We also have a potential diversity problem. We need to make sure that each subgroup of socgradders is represented so that there isn't any hegemony on the net. We should also, I think, put together a working group to figure out how to select the CAT. Elections would probably be best. We probably want to have a few weeks for nominations and then some time for campaigning and then a secret ballot (we could, perhaps, use the ANON service for this). In any case, we would want to give some sort of posting credit to the folks who handled all this administrative work -- a sort of service recognition. This IS exciting. As the original poster suggested, if we do it right, we could become a genuine academic organization in no time at all! I hope this has been helpful. I really like to help organize things! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 14:18:34 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:10:21 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:10:19 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:10:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" Subject: CAT--huh, huh, huh--that is Committee on Appropriate Topics To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I second the motion to form the CAT committee as soon as possible. It is a catty commentary on catputing...well done. Del. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 15:07:34 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:03:27 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:03:22 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 16:59:04 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: nomination to CAT To: Socgrad list I am all for CAT. It sounds like a great way to make sociology better! Censor the hell out of a list, and it will become prestigous to get posted. Wait a minute... We could turn it into the first interactive journal! I nominate DAN as the organizer, who would of course recieve a service award. I also want to nominate Joya as the first Editor of our new journal. Laura Miller should also have a role. Maybe not Secretary, but how about Communication Coordinated? Something like that. I'm all for it. Hope Dan gets to work on this idea soon, it sounds like he has some great ideas! By the way, has anyone thought about awarding Laura anything for setting up this forum? SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 15:28:00 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:23:50 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:23:32 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:57:13 -0600 (CST) From: David G Fox Subject: prospective phd programs To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hi. I'm about to get my masters degree and need some inside info on Sociology PhD programs. Any grad students who would like to offer juicy appraisals of their programs (competitive? faculty cooperative and helpful? high quality? user friendly?) please let me in on your evaluations. I'm oriented towards qualitative work, with an interest in urban sociology, race and stratification. My masters thesis deals with deindustrialization and the inner city. Good info on grad programs is hard to come by. You scrappy veterans can offer the best advice, so let me know what you think. Thanx from Dave. PS How expensive is it to live where you're at? I have a family. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 17:06:25 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:04:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:04:48 -0800 for Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 20:01:46 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: QUERY ABOUT UGEORGIA-ATHENS To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hello ya'll Thanks for the help with my previous query...got another for you - I'd like to ask someone who's connnected with UGA (Univ Georgia-Athens) a few questions if you're willing. Thanks, Joya From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 18:20:52 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 18:17:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 18:17:44 -0800 for From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: football - clarification To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:17:08 -0500 (EST) Just to clarify, I did not mean that Canadians don't play football - but I thought that was clear. The reference to being Canadian was in terms of, I think, the relatively safe assumption that inter-University football does not have anything like the same importance in Canada that it does in many American schools. Also, to the sports sociologist in Hamilton, I'm happy to talk about sports sociology, but since when does a discussion of football scores constitute a discussion about the sociology of sports? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 22:46:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:43:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:43:30 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 8077; Wed, Date: 17 Nov 1993 22:45:38 CST From: To: Subject: CAT/Law and Order (NBC, 9 PM CST) Dan, In the words of Capt. Hook, as played by D. Hoffman, "Good Form." I much enjoyed your ideas. Humor is a wonderful sort of thing. To all, I watched the last few minutes of "Law and Order" tonight and it was excellent, as usual. The final scenes, as I interpreted them, was a debate between biological and social causes of deviant/violent behavior. The result was that the defendant, a 14 yr old boy who killed another kid, became convinced that both of the explanations were correct and that he might as well plead guilty and receive the maximum sentence since there was no way to undue genetics and socialization. He was that way for the rest of his life. Might as well be in jail, away from society. Or perhaps, better yet, he should be executed. This made me think, What if more people decided to take what we do seriously? In the case mentioned above, the kid believed what the research said. But should we? How would an application of our research affect individuals or society in general? I hadn't thought about this much before. Any comments? Dave From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 17 23:18:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 17 Nov 1993 23:17:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 17 Nov 1993 23:17:06 -0800 for To: Subject: Re: CAT/Law and Order (NBC, 9 PM CST) <199311180643.WAA05501@ucsd.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 23:16:02 -0800 From: Michael Lichter This made me think, What if more people decided to take what we do seriously? In the case mentioned above, the kid believed what the research said. But should we? How would an application of our research affect individuals or society in general? I hadn't thought about this much before. Don't worry, They only take economists and occasionally psychologists seriously. Actually, social science research -- "underclass", "culture of poverty" -- frequently gets recycled through the popular media and comes back to haunt us. Research, of course, has no autonomous affect on anybody; it depends on who appropriates it and for what purpose. WRT to your kid, only the most gullible are going to believe that they're damned to hell because a newspaper article said so. It takes a lot more reinforcement than that to make most normal people believe in such nonsense. Which indirectly reminds me of a favorite quotation: The assumption of inertia, that cultural and social continuity do not require explanation, obliterates the fact that both have to be recreated anew in each generation, often with great pain and suffering. To maintain and transmit a value system, human beings are punched, bullied, sent to jail, thrown into concentration camps, cajoled, bribed, made into heroes, encouraged to read newspapers, stood up against a wall and shot, and sometimes even taught sociology. To speak of cultural inertia is to overlook the concrete interests and privileges that are served by indoctrination, education, and the entire complicated process of transmitting culture from one generation to the next. Barrington Moore, Jr. _Social Origins of Dictatorship and Democracy_ p. 486 Michael From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 05:44:53 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 05:33:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 05:33:23 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 08:32:13 -0500 (EST) From: Mauricio Cardenas Subject: Call for Papers, GENERAL (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU For those interested in interdisciplinary conferences: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 15:53:05 -0700 From: Tom Hall Subject: Call for Papers, GENERAL From: IN%"FHI00DRG@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU" "Donna Gabaccia" 16-NOV-1993 17:17:31.51 Subj: SSHA Call for Papers Please post further to any sociology/ etc. e-lists that may be interested CALL FOR PAPERS , SOCIAL SCIENCE HISTORY ASSOCIATION ATLANTA, GEORGIA, OCTOBER 13-16, 1994 The Social Science History Association will hold its 19th annual conference in Atlanta, Georgia from Oct. 13 through 16 1994 at the Atlanta OMNI--CNN Center. The SSHA is the leading interdisciplinary association in the social sciences. Its annual conference attracts historians, economists, sociologists anthropologists, political scientists, and geographers. Graduate students are encouraged to attend and to appear as panelists. Those interested in a poster exhibit, panel session, or paper presentations should send proposals to the appropriate network of the Program Committee. Proposals should describe the subject and format of the presentation (include poster, panel, and paper titles), and provide names, departments, institutional affiliations, addresses, phones, and when possible fax and e- mail, for ALL participants. Panel Sessions. Panels last two hours. Organizers should ensure that the format leaves ample time (at least 30 minutes) for discussion. A panel with four (fifteen minute) presentations and one discussant requires reporting results rather than reading of papers. Roundtables and "meet the author" panels are encouraged. Participants may present only one paper. SSHA prefers interdisciplinary panels. Poster Exhibits. The SSHA began poster exhibits several years ago. Poster sessions permit authors to display information about their research project on an easel and to interact with conference participants. The SSHA provides authors with cork boards and easels for displaying work. Posters should be printed on 8.5x11 (or other standard) sheets in a large font size (at least 15 point for text; larger for titles). They should begin with an abstract of 250 words. A "meet the author" session for each poster will be scheduled. All participants on SSHA programs are required to pre- register for the conference in the spring after their proposals have been accepted. Normally, participants join SSHA. The final deadline for receiving poster, paper, and panel proposals is February 15, 1994. Organizers are encouraged to contact members of the Program Committee earlier and to submit preliminary proposals by January 15, 1994. PROGRAM COMMITTEE CO-CHAIRS: Craig Calhoun, International Studies, UNC at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3195; phone: 919 962 3094; fax 919 962 2262; e- mail: calhoun@unc.edu Donna Gabaccia, Dept. of History, UNC at Charlotte, Charlotte, NC 28223 phone: 704 547 2769; fax: 704 547 3218; e-mail: fhi00drg@unccvm NETWORK CHAIRS CRIMINAL JUSTICE/LEGAL: Joanne Klein, Humanities and Social Sciences, Univ. S. Carolina at Sumter, 200 Miller Road, Sumter, SC 29150-2498; phone: 803-775-6341; fax: 803-775-2170; e-mail joannek@uscsumter.uscsu.scarolina.edu CULTURE: Mabel Berezin, Sociology, 3718 Locust Walk, Univ. of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6299 phone 215-898-9060; fax 215-573-2081; e-mail:mberezin@MCNeil.sas.upenn.edu ECONOMICS: Gregory Clark, Economics, Univ. of California, Davis, CA 95616 phone 916 752 9242 fax 916 752 9382 EDUCATION: Mustafa Emirbayer, Sociology, New School for Social Research, 65 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10003 phones: 212 229- 5850; 212 255 5297; fax 212 229 5315 FAMILY/DEMOGRAPHY: Richard Wall, Cambridge Group, History of Population and Social Structure, 27 Trumpington Street, Cambridge CB2 1QA; fax (0) 223 333 183; e-mail: campop@phx.cam.ac.uk HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY: Tom Hall, DePauw University, Greencastle, IN 46135-0037 office: 317-658-4519 home: 317-362-0325 fax: 317 658 4177; e-mail: thall@depauw.edu LABOR: Leon Fink, Dept. of History, Univ. of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3195 phone 919-962-8080 fax 919 962 1403 e- mail: LFINK@UNC.VXI.oit.UNC.edu METHODS/THEORY: Andrew Newman, Dept. of Sociology, 300 Bricker, 190 N. Oval Mall, Ohio State Univ., Columbus, OH 43210-1353; office 614-292-5658 or 292-6681; home: 614-846-8189 fax: 614- 292-6687; e-mail: AEN@ohstsoca.sbs.ohio-state.edu AND Marc Ventresca, Dept. of Bus. Admin., Univ. of Illinois, 106 Commerce West, Champaign, IL 61802; phone 217-333-4504; fax 217-244-7969; e-mail: Marcjv@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu MIGRATION/IMMIGRATION: Alice O'Connor, Center for Study of Urban Inequality, University of Chicago, 1313 East 60th Street, Chicago, IL 60637; office: 312 702 0894; Fax: 312 702-8822 POLITICS: Jack Goldstone, Sociology, Univ. of California, Davis, CA 95616; phone 916-752-8220 fax: 916-756-2876 AND Jack Reynolds, Div. of Behavioral and Cultural Sciences, Univ. of Texas at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78285-0655; phone: 210- 691-5708 e-mail jreynold@pclan.utsa.edu RACE/ETHNICITY: Earl Lewis, Center for Afro-American Studies and African Studies, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; office: 313 763 5526; fax: 763 0543; e-mail: earllewis@umich.edu; George Sanchez, Dept. of History, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109; office: 313 763 7861; fax: 313 747 4881; e-mail: george.sanchez@umich.edu RELIGION: Matthew Moen, Political Science, 5754 North Stevens, Univ. of Maine, Orono , ME 04469 office: 207 581 1885; fax: 207 581 1953 RURAL: Vernon Burton office: History, University of Illinois, 309 Gregory Hall, 810 S. Wright St., Urbana, IL 61801 217 333- 4327; fax: 217 333 2294 e-mail vburton@ncsa.uiuc.edu STATES, SOCIETY, POLITICS: Jack Goldstone, Dept. of Sociology, Univ. of California, Davis, CA 95616; phone 916-752-8220 fax: 916-756-2876 URBAN: Ronald Bayor, History, Technology and Society, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia 30332, phone: 404 894 6834; fax: 404-853-0535; e-mail: rb2@prism.gatech.edu WOMEN/GENDER: Ruth Crocker, Dept. of History, 7040 Haley Center, Auburn University, Auburn, AL 36849 office: 205 844 4360; home: 205 826 3444; fax 205 844 6673 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 06:27:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 06:26:46 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 06:26:44 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 09:27:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" Subject: List of Ph.D. Programs To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hello all. Does anyone have a Directory of Ph.D. programs or know where I might be able to get such a list? Please forward directly to me so we don't clog the public posting....Thanks. Del. P.S. Ph.D. programs in Sociology, of course. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 08:58:53 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 08:50:22 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 08:50:17 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:47:37 +0500 (EST) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: List of Ph.D. Programs To: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" On Thu, 18 Nov 1993, Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066 wrote: > Hello all. Does anyone have a Directory of Ph.D. programs or know where I > might be able to get such a list? Please forward directly to me so we don't > clog the public posting....Thanks. > > Del. > > P.S. Ph.D. programs in Sociology, of course. > > ASA publishes a Guide to Graduate Departments each year. It lists faculty and their interests, special programs, deadlines, mail/phone/fax/e-mail addresses and other useful stuff. Your local soc department or library's reference department may have a copy. You can order a copy from ASA; send a note to ASA@GWUVM.BITNET for details on price and how to order. Happy hunting, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell Jim_Cassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 10:18:51 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:09:43 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:09:41 -0800 for Thu, 18 Nov 93 18:09:10 GMT for MAILER@SDSC; Thu, 18 Nov 1993 18:05 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 12:51:36 EST From: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: Law and Order & "reality" To: socgrad%ucsd.edu@Sdsc.Edu In response to Dave who watched "Law and Order" and asked the question of whether people take what we so seriously and of whether or research has any effect on people: I say Yes! When our research is seen as "science," it is given a privledged voice. We, scientists (even the social scientists), hold the Truth about deviance and human behavior. In this sense we are able to construct an enlightened reality for others. I would agree with Michael that it depends how and for whom this science is used, but I would disagree with him that only the "gullible" fall for most of it. (let me know if I misrepresented your view). As Foucault pointed out, science is a form of domination thru its discourse, its institutions and its practice. This is evident in the interplay between law, medicine and psychiatry. Any thoughts? Heather From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 10:33:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:27:50 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:27:47 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:25:39 +0500 (EST) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: List of Ph.D. Programs (fwd) To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion This was sent to me by someone at ASA who reads the list; thought I'd pass it along to the group. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell Jim_Cassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 13:21:40 EDT From: ASA@gwuvm.gwu.edu To: James Cassell Subject: Re: List of Ph.D. Programs The 1993 Guide is still available from our publications center in Albany, NY, 49 Sheridan Ave, Albany, NY 12210; 1-800-877-2693 for credit card orders over $10 only. The 1994 Guide will be available in April/May. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 11:18:54 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:17:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:17:28 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 14:18:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Del Rounds, (803) 953-5072, 953-5066" Subject: Thanks for Quick Reply on Request for Graduate Guide To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Thanks to all who have responded to my request for information on graduate programs in sociology. Very quick and responsive of the dozens who have responded directly to me as well as publicly. Thank you all. Del. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 13:06:52 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:04:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:04:07 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: Joseph Moore Subject: our Mission To: socgrad While I was flipping through the socgrad messages I do believe I saw a reference to both the notion of "science as domination" and our (as self identified "social scientists" ability "to construct an ENLIGHTENED reality for others. As I failed to note a sense of sarcasm (perhaps due to the sterile medium), I became very frightened. Joey (still missing software with adequate editing functions) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 13:43:24 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:38:12 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:38:03 -0800 for Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 16:21:54 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: THE QUALITY OF KNOWING To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Introducing a slightly new topic, I find myself occasionally caught between the devil (in this case, possessing a knowledge of facts and their interrelationships) and the deep blue sea (here a lack of knowledge of the essence of someone else's being). When I know that I possess a greater level of knowledge, occasionally knowledge that another is entirely unaware exixts, how do I share that knowledge? when is it appropriate to answer a question that has not yet been asked? what if the person in ignorance is not a social aquaintance but rather a student or client and the knowledge is not directly related to the contract inherent in the student-teacher or professional practitioner-client relationship? It seems that when we publish reports of research/ observations we can find ourselves in this particular bind. How will various members of the intellectual community to whom the report is addressed react to and use our results? And, on some occasions, what will the popular media do with these same results? Will appropriate or inappropriate use of our research results lead to unintended harm? I have tried to develop good judgement to employ in these situations, but I wonder how others cope. Comments? Suggestions? Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 18 13:48:39 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:43:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:42:56 -0800 for From: LEE@cati.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931118164107.448; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 18 Nov 93 16:40:46 EDT Subject: the Mission Three Cheers for Joey's Fear of the MISSION. I second the motion. Go forth Young Sociologists with Idealism. Beware for the Tyrant's Cloak may fall gently (unwittingly) on Lofty Shoulders that Carry Such a Burden. ---Lee on the Beltway of the Urban Power Center of the Decaying Western World Playing Away....sort of. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 19 01:54:58 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 19 Nov 1993 01:32:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 19 Nov 1993 01:32:24 -0800 for To: "Marlen R. Hancock" Subject: Re: THE QUALITY OF KNOWING Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 01:31:19 -0800 From: Michael Lichter It seems that when we publish reports of research/ observations we can find ourselves in this particular bind. How will various members of the intellectual community to whom the report is addressed react to and use our results? And, on some occasions, what will the popular media do with these same results? Will appropriate or inappropriate use of our research results lead to unintended harm? I wish you had given a concrete example of this "bind", becuase I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. With regard to misappropriation of results, I can give what I think is a good example, if a little lengthy. In 1978, William Julius Wilson published his book _The Declining Significance of Race_. In the book, Wilson observes that the situation of the majority black Americans is deteriorating. He argues, against most liberal and progressive scholars, that the reason is not racial discrimination, but class disadvantage. A great, long history of oppression has left most blacks in a truly desperate position at the bottom of the class structure. Because it has been outlawed and because the state has vigorously prosecuted violations, racial discrimination in hiring and promotion is no longer a serious problem for blacks. Because they are at the very bottom, however, blacks children suffer from inadequate schools and health care and have no access to the resources that are instrumental in the success of more affluent children. Their "life chances" are determined by their class position, and not by their race. One source of evidence to this effect is the growth and prosperity of a new black middle class. An implication is that Affirmative Action, because it only helps those with adequate class resources, is useless -- it is redundant for the middle class and irrelevant to the black masses. This book was hailed by no one more loudly than by conservatives. Here is a black man saying that race no longer matters, and that Affirmative Action is useless. He's a social scientist who knows what he's talking about. Let's shut down Affirmative Action, get rid of all those other race-specific programs, stop complaining about racism that no longer exists, and get back to business! This was a horror to Wilson, a social democrat hoping that his class-based analysis would help drum up support for European style social democratic reforms. He was calling for new social programs that would benefit the poor as a whole, and end the state's reinforcement of race boundaries through its race-based programs. While Wilson was given the Spivak award by the ASA, his book was enough of a horror to the Association of Black Sociolgists that they issued a statement calling it a poor work of scholarship, one ignoring overwhelming contradictory evidence. While maintaining Wilson's right to express his opinion, they expressed their own concerns: "[It] is the position of this organization that the sudden national attention given to Professor Wilson's book obscures the problem of the persistent oppression of blacks ... " "In the past reactionary groups have seized upon inappropriate analyses as a basis for the further suppression of blacks. We would hope that this is not the intent of the recent recognition that has been given to Professor Wilson's book. ... "The Association of Black Sociologists is outraged over the misrepresentation of the black experience. We are also extremely disturbed over the policy implications that may derive from this work and that, given the nature of American society, are likely to set in motion equally objectionable trends in funding, research, and training." "Statement of the Association of Black Sociologists" taken from _The Caste and Class Controversy_ Ed. Charles V. Willie I don't think it's possible to trace any actual policy changes to Wilson's work. The Reagan and Bush administrations' attacks on race-based programs were based on an entirely different logic, and would probably have traced the same trajectory even if Wilson had never touched his typewriter. At the same time, the media sound-bite version of Wilson's book undoubtedly bolstered the popular forces against (in particular) affirmative action, aiding political leaders who Wilson could not help but see as foes. Was Wilson wrong to publish his book, given the clear possibility that his argument would be used to justify actions counter to the interests of the group being studied? Personally, I don't think feel comfortable with the notion "I just tell the truth, and it's not my responsibility if people distort it and/or use it for evil purposes." Scholarship is not neutral. Wilson could have stated the same argument in a different fashion, one which would have been less amenable to co-optation, and he could have picked a less flashy title. The dilemma is that Wilson wanted to state his iconoclastic case in its most extreme form because he wanted to give liberals a kick in the pants. It seems that he felt he could only do so by simultaneously handing the conservatives a loaded weapon. There is no way to present arguments or data that cannot be interpreted in a way contrary to our intentions. I think that we all have an obligation, though, to consider the context in which we present our ideas, to make some kind of calculation of likely effects, and to present them in a fashion which minimizes the negative effects. In _Declining Significance_, I think that Wilson was more interested in maximizing his "punch" than in minimizing the damage done, and I think that was a mistake. Is that a conclusion? Doesn't matter, it's past my bed time. I hope all this rambling was worth *something*. Michael From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 19 05:51:00 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 19 Nov 1993 05:49:57 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 19 Nov 1993 05:49:55 -0800 for Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 08:43:21 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: THE QUALITY OF KNOWING To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Michael's remarks are an excellent example of what I meant. I would add that in the 1980 printing of _The declining significance of race_, Wilson adds an epilogue discussing the policy debate inspired by the book. There must be other published examples, but what about examples from one's experience? How does one ever introduce a potentially controversial new insight without risking the misuse of that insight (or some portion thereof) by persons with different and competing agendas? Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 19 08:27:51 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 19 Nov 1993 08:25:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 19 Nov 1993 08:25:53 -0800 for X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Fri, 4 Jan 80 00:42:39 CST From: "pamela jull" <@cornell.edu@UCSD.EDU> To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: unsub unsub unsub Hey! whoever is operating this system, I unsubscribed MONTHS ago, and today I got 150 messages from the socgrad net. I don't want them. It will take me two hours to delete them. take me OFF the #@*# list! unsub socgrad From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 19 09:01:55 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 19 Nov 1993 08:58:42 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 19 Nov 1993 08:58:38 -0800 for Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 11:55 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: PATTYO%IRISHMVS.CC.ND.EDU@UICVM.UIC.EDU Subject: dangerous theories Hi. I've been following the discussion of the dangers of theories of sociologists (and others) with great interest. I, too, saw the Law & Order episode which centered on 2 particular criminological theories. Since crim is my main area, the show was very interesting to me and made me think a lot. Marni had asked for personal experiences/research that concerns us about the dangers of our own theories. My M.A. thesis looked at the connection between child abuse and violent crime. There is a clear relationship between having been abused as a child (physcially and/or sexually) and becoming a violent as opposed to a nonviolent criminal later in life. This kind of theory is very dangerous. If such a connection exists, do we take all children who've been abused and lock them up for safe keeping? Of course not. The way I dealt with the "dangers of theorizing" was to basically put a sort of disclaimer right in the beginning and then again in the conclusion of the thesis. I stated that the connection between child abuse and violent crime does NOT suggest that all children who are abused will become violent criminals later in life, nor does it suggest that all violent criminals will have been abused as children. What it does suggest is that the relationship between child abuse and violent crime occurs more frequently than we would expect by chance alone. Also, I brought in various other variables in the analysis. I emphasized the complexity of the relationship between child abuse and violent crime. All sociological analysis is quite complex, and I think we need to make that perfectly clear in our writing and research. If we aren't clear ourselves of the implications and conlusions of our own work, how can we expect others to be clear? By the way, the XYY chromosome theory brought up in Law & Order applies to less than 1% of the inmate population. Even if it is considered a valid theory (controversy surrounds that question), how do we explain criminality among the other 99%! Well, I've rambled enough. Patty O'Donnell ps - I don't think I'll be asking for predictions on sporting events anymore. It seems to have caused quite a stir! From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 19 11:49:54 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:47:40 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:47:39 -0800 for From: Pablo.F.Forni.1@nd.edu X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 14:23:39 CST Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at nd.edu To: SOCGRAD%UCSD.EDU@sdsc.edu Subject: Unsubscribe From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 19 14:11:05 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:24 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:22 -0800 for To: R2HAF%AKRONVM%VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Subject: Re: Law and Order & "reality" <931118180910.2220025b@Sdsc.Edu> Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:05:11 -0800 From: Michael Lichter I would agree with Michael that it depends how and for whom this science is used, but I would disagree with him that only the "gullible" fall for most of it. (let me know if I misrepresented your view). As Foucault pointed out, science is a form of domination thru its discourse, its institutions and its practice. This is evident in the interplay between law, medicine and psychiatry. My "gullible" remark came from a misunderstanding of the TV show that I did not see but only read 3 lines about. My (hidden?) point was just that people will resist what science or anybody else says if it contradicts what they already believe -- unless it's beaten into them. If somebody believes in their own basic goodness, you can probably convince them otherwise, but it will take some doing. With regard to your comment: Does Foucault really say this? A primary goal of science is to define things, to define the world and how it works. To the extent that scientific definitions of the world are imposed on people, and to the extent that science maintains the power to shift its definitions of the world and still maintain hegemony over the power of definition, scientific discourse is a form of domination. If that's not what's meant, please clarify. On the other hand, it's not the institutions of science and scientific practice, per se, that exercise direct domination over people, but the institutions and practice of applied sciences like medicine and psychiatry. Physicists have the power to decide whether our universe is flat or curved, but not the power to name you "schizophrenic", pump you full of drugs and lock you up. Sociologists can define inner city residents as an "underclass" hopelessly caught in a "tangle of pathology", and police can justify writing people off on that basis, but I'm not sure how the institutions and practices of sociology are a form of domination. Plesae elucidate. Thanks. Michael From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 20 11:48:39 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 20 Nov 1993 11:47:20 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 20 Nov 1993 11:47:19 -0800 for From: Adela Ros Subject: information campus To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sat, 20 Nov 93 11:47:17 PST Hi! A friend of mine form Spain is planning to come to the US to follow a master program. He's having a hard time deciding which department to choose. His favourites: UCLS, Columbia, Satandford. His dissertation is in the area of the Sociology of Work. Can you please help me to help him? Which one do you think is more specialized in areas of labor relations, work...I would appreciate comments from students in these departments. Plus, has anyone information of any good Sociology department in Washington DC? Thanks a lot. Adela Ros aros@ucsd.edu From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 21 13:52:44 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 21 Nov 1993 13:50:35 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 21 Nov 1993 13:50:33 -0800 for Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993 11:50:08 -1000 (HST) From: Andrew Ovenden Subject: unsubscribe To: SOCGRAD Unsub socgrad From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 21 14:17:04 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 21 Nov 1993 14:15:38 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 21 Nov 1993 14:15:36 -0800 for From: XSBANDA@CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Date: 21 Nov 1993 14:14:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discontent To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hello everyone, I have been a subscriber to this forum for about three months now and feel compelled to express my disapointment with it. Before getting to the negative aspects, I have to say that there are some realy good reasons for this forum to exist and some of the messages are very valuable and interesting, however, my discontent arises from the garbage talk as to whether football should be disscused here or not (or any other topic other than sociology for that matter). The name of the forum should give us the answer. Also, there seems to be a lot of less than worthy contibutions from a few individuals whose names I don't remember but who are always present with messages that I delete after a few lines (I get the impression that they are very lonely). Anyway, I hope this forum returns to what its original intentions were. I'm sure this letter is going to cause some people some anger, but, this is my opinion. Take care everyone. S.B From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 21 15:54:18 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 21 Nov 1993 15:52:46 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 21 Nov 1993 15:52:44 -0800 for Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 17:45:04 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Discontent (lonely?) To: Socgrad list I was left feeling a little confused after reading S.B's comments about the list. Am I lonely since I post to the list,but don't talk about sociology with the right attitude? I admit to being informal, and off-handed in my treatment of sociology (both on Socgrad and in my scholarly pursuits). Am I lonely because I enjoy to make contact with fellow socgrads through this medium? I also admit to this one, that I am interested in interacting "socially" with others on the list, off-list. I have made some great :) e-pals via the list. Am I lonely because I have the time to be so active on INTERNET? Well, here I may be guilty. My SO has been out of the state this semester, but I always enjoy Netting. A lonely person?, SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 21 20:33:50 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 21 Nov 1993 20:32:25 -0800 for socgrad-list From: neese@helios.nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: UCSD LIBRARY HOURS Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 20:32:19 -0800 Hello colleagues- Does anyone know if the central library at UCSD will be open over the Thanks- giving holiday, and if so, what hours? I'll be in town this weekend and I'd like to do some foraging. Thanks for the aid. Happy Thanksgiving to all...of you who celebrate that day.....not that there's anything wrong with not celebrating Thanksgiving... Denise UNLV From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 21 20:57:38 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 21 Nov 1993 20:56:19 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 21 Nov 1993 20:56:16 -0800 for Date: Sun, 21 Nov 93 22:55:19 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Library Hours To: Socgrad list The UND library will be open until 5:00 on Weds, and not reopen until Sunday at 5:00po. SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 22 06:39:03 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 22 Nov 1993 06:36:28 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 22 Nov 1993 06:36:26 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931122093427.320; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 22 Nov 93 09:34:19 EDT Subject: the vitae just a question...i've noticed some folks include a birthdate on their vitae (some even include place of birth)...usually after their name and address...wha's up wit dis?...isn't there a law against age discrimination in the workplace...and if its voluntary, what are the costs/benefits of being older vs younger to a search committee? morten `beginning to have a self to present' ender From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 22 08:07:14 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:05:57 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:05:55 -0800 for Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 10:54:06 -0500 (EST) From: 00elstewart@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: unsubscribe <00ELSTEWART@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu> To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 22 09:34:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 22 Nov 1993 09:26:54 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 22 Nov 1993 09:26:49 -0800 for Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 09:26:48 -0800 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: how to unsubscribe Too much email in your life? If you want to unsubscribe from Socgrad, send a message to: listserv@ucsd.edu (if you're on Internet) or LISTSERV@UCSD.BITNET (if you're on BITNET) and in the body of your message, type: unsub socgrad Remember to send the message to listserv, NOT to Socgrad itself. Any problems or questions can be directed to lmiller@ucsd.edu From socgrad-relay@ucsd.edu Wed Nov 24 03:20:45 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 22 Nov 1993 15:57:54 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 22 Nov 1993 15:57:44 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 1780; Mon, Date: 22 Nov 1993 15:38:24 CST From: To: Subject: the vitae In response to the question about whether or not to put you age on your vitae... We had a prosem. with our faculty about the vitae and job hunting and this was one of the questions brought up. Most agreed that it was not the thing to do. As one person noted -- why give them an opportunity to practice ageism? Another point was that even though vitae are longer than your basic business resume that doesn't mean you should avoid the rules for business resumes which never (well almost never) include that type of information. Hope this helps. Diann From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 05:39:27 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 22 Nov 1993 17:10:10 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 22 Nov 1993 17:10:05 -0800 for Date: Mon, 22 Nov 93 19:06:11 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Vita? To: Socgrad list I am all for the AGE being included on the vita. I for one do not want to see the world reduced to a trnascript and a thesis/dissertation title. I want to know about a person when I am going to hire them. why are in-person interviews needed? It is a good question. Why? So we can see that the person does not have two heads, and can actually communicate. There is still a person being hired, not just a position being filled. We do not want to see the humanness of the work place replaced by a TOTALLY merit based system, do we? SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 06:11:51 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 07:17:15 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 23 Nov 1993 07:17:13 -0800 for From: khaskin@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: vitae To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 9:17:11 CST In response to Skee, while I understand what you mean about wanting the humanity to remain in hiring systems, we could still use a LOT more merit and a lot less personal bias in hiring processes. So my opinion, and the opinion of the people who ran our recent vita-writing seminar, was do not include your age. Different departments may have different opinions: some may think being under 30 is too young to be an asst. prof. Others may think that being over a certain age is too old. Let them choose you through the merits of your accomplishments. Have a happy Turkey Day! Karen From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 06:12:00 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 08:17:29 -0800 for socgrad-list sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 08:17:27 -0800 for socgrad@UCSD.BITNET Tue, 23 Nov 93 16:17:27 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 11:01:03 EST From: Emilio Subject: problem To: socgrad@ucsd.BitNet I attempted to unsub from socgrad in the matter proscribed and I received the following message: Tue, 23 Nov 93 03:41:29 GMT sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 19:41:26 -0800 From: Listserv%UCSD.EDU@Sdsc.BITnet (Mailing List Processor) To: r2ell@akronvm.bitnet Subject: Re: your LISTSERV request "unsub socgrad" Per your request "unsub socgrad" 'r2ell@akronvm.bitnet' was NOT FOUND on the 'socgrad' mailing list. following message. and yet I continue to receive mail. Something is wrong somewhere. Emilio From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 06:12:27 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 07:32:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 23 Nov 1993 07:32:53 -0800 for Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 10:23:05 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: VITAE To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi all! To add to the discussion, All of my previous Vitae were written to qualify for nursing rather than Soc faculty positions. In that setting, I always included my marital status and birth date as well as the birth years of my children. (Also my place of birth. It is an unusual place and has started some fascinating conversations during interviews (breaking the ice sort of stuff)). Given the depth and breadth of my nursing vita and the quality of my letters of recommendation this has tended to give employers the impression that I can certainly maintain my faculty position under almost any onslaught of professional or personal crises :). I've never found this to be a focus of any long discussion. In times when I've been involved in selection of faculty for employment (again in nursing) I've never seen age or marital status (etc) used as a reason to hire or not hire. So there are my 2 cents worth :). Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 06:13:56 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 09:13:25 -0800 for socgrad-list sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 09:13:22 -0800 for socgrad@UCSD.BITNET Tue, 23 Nov 93 17:13:21 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 11:48:13 +0500 (EST) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: problem To: Emilio Thought I'd post this to the list in case others ran into the same problem. AKRONVM is on both bitnet and the Internet. My guess is that you are subscribed to socgrad using your internet address. Try sending the following commands to listserv@ucsd.edu delete R2ELL@AKRONVM.UAKRON.EDU socgrad delete R2ELL@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU socgrad (AKRONVM.UAKRON.EDU and VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU are the two Internet "aliases" for AKRONVM.BITNET.) You might want to send these in separate mail messages to listserv@ucsd.edu. (That will avoid having listserv ignore the second commond if the first bombs. Now isn't networking FUN! Cheers, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell Jim_Cassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 08:12:50 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 24 Nov 1993 08:09:22 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 24 Nov 1993 08:09:04 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 5481; Wed, Date: 24 Nov 1993 09:54:53 CST From: To: Subject: CAT (I forgot what this stands for, Dan) I need to make a modification to my suggestion of forming an appropriateness committee. Dan's comments were, as usual, very insightful. To add to his comments, I suggest a five day waiting period to submit a post to the committee. This would allow time for the committee to check the background of the poster before actually reading the submitted post. Posters would have to notify the committee of the date they would send the post. The committee would then do whatever they decide to do. I still haven't seen anyone submitting nominations. Will this ever get off the ground. Maybe we could get Pres. Clinton to take up the cause. He has considerable political clout right now. It would also be helpful if I could debate this concept with Ross Perot. Dave From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 08:35:40 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 15:59:35 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 23 Nov 1993 15:59:30 -0800 for From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 18:59:36 -0500 (EST) > Subject: vitae > To: socgrad@ucds.edu > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 12:35:23 -0500 (EST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Length: 834 > > To offer my two cents worth - I think including age is a lot less > controversial or potentially problematic than m.s. I include my aage, > but probably because I'm about the average age for first job candidates, > but if I wasn't the average age I would probably not include it, for the reason > given by another respondent (sorry, can't remember who it was) - why > give applicands a chance to practise ageism? However, in response to > M. Hancock, I would never include my marital status, for two reasons, > it's none of their business (of course, age isn't either) and I've heard several instances of inappropriate questions arising in interviews regarding marital status, such as, 'well, if you get this job, what will you husband be doing', or 'what about your family? If M. Hancock has never experienced any bias as a married women, she's lucky, it can be a problem. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 09:04:39 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 23 Nov 1993 17:08:10 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 23 Nov 1993 17:08:08 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931123200611.416; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 23 Nov 93 20:06:02 EDT Subject: age and married with children as usual, i have more information and am further confused...my reading of the posts is that age is used as a source of self presentation...the more youthful applicants might use it to cover a meager publication list...the 30 something folks to indicate `career commitment' and the elder folks to indicate `experience'?... in terms of marriage, just thinking about some findings by the work and family folks...it seems being married with children (on paper) might indicate to a job search committee that the applicant is serious and conformable (is this a word)?... also...in terms of marriage and `what will the spouse do if we hire you' reminds me of the bill and hillary clinton issue of 'getting two people in office with one vote'...my wife and had an opportunity to get `a job' because it was known she was married, and i would be there (an overseas position) to contribute to the community in some capacity...maybe they thought i would protect her? i guess, in some ways the traditional role of spouse serving the needs of the other continue as much as it is being replaced...either way, discrimination is illegal...but how do we prove it? (are legal questions appropriate for posting if they involve a social variable?) morten `just avoiding random acts of violence at the local mall' ender mostly From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 09:45:47 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:36:08 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:36:03 -0800 for Date: Wed, 24 Nov 93 10:27:48 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: CAT To: Socgrad list I believe that CAT stood for Committee on Approprate Topics. And I made nominations before -- Dan Was to be made the first ChairPERSON of the committee, while Joya was to be our first editor. At least, that is what I suggested a week or so ago. I figured since No-one else made nominations, or seconded the ones I made, that the whole idea was down the drain. I'm all for the background checks... The posters should have to submitt their vitas before they could post. Items such as Age, Marital status, Sexual preference, politicial party, group memberships, and the person's opinion on abortion should all be taken into account before letting a person even send a potential post to the CAT. We could even set up a group to do the checking..... COMP - Committee on Moral Posters SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 10:35:09 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 24 Nov 1993 10:33:50 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 24 Nov 1993 10:33:44 -0800 for Date: Wed, 24 Nov 93 11:56:45 EST From: RSGossweiler Subject: Position Announcement (2 Research Positions) To: socgrad ***** 2 Research Positions******* ADVERTISEMENT RESEARCH ASSOCIATE I The Center for Drug and Alcohol Studies at the University of Delaware is seeking an individual for the position of Research Associate. Major responsibilities include but are not limited to: assist Senior Staff with articles for publication in scientific journals, writing grant proposals, initiating and interpreting SPSS statistical analyses. Requirements include a Bachelor's degree in one of the health, social, or behavioral sciences or related field, plus two (2) years research experience and/or qualitative research experience. Thorough knowledge of computers and statistical software as well as out of state travel are required. Send resume to: Dr. James A. Inciardi, Center for Drug and Alcohol Studies, University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716. Minimum salary is $23,268 . DEADLINE: November 29, 1993. The University of Delaware is an Equal Opportunity Employer which encourages applications from qualified Minority Group Members and Women. Duties involve the ability to perform a variety of tasks in the research process, including but not limited to: 1) Assisting with articles for publication in scientific journals, incorporating suggestions from other faculty members and researchers, editing and producing final versions of articles. 2) Under the Director's supervision, the incumbent will be expected to design, write, and coordinate grant proposals to federal, state and other agencies for the funding of research projects. 3) Work with Senior Staff on initiating and interpreting SPSS statistical analyses of database information from research projects and/or conducting qualitative studies of health related phenomena. 4) Conducting literature searches and preparing annotated bibliographies as instructed by the Director and/or Senior Staff. 5) Assembling and producing materials, both written and graphic (i.e. charts, graphs, slides, and posters) for the presentation of research results at scientific meetings. 6) With direction, act as liaison with funding agencies in order to solve problems and facilitate communication with faculty and staff. 7) Supervising other staff members in generating information and support needed for production of reports, articles, and grant proposals. 8) Maintaining a central file for bibliographic references, audio-visual, articles, and presentations prepared by faculty pertaining to research projects. 9) Monitoring grant operations including data entry and field research. 10) Assisting the Principal Investigator and Co- investigators with management/supervisory issues. Minimum requirements for this position are: 1) Bachelor's degree in one of the health, social, or behavioral sciences or related field. 2) Two (2) years research experience and/or qualitative research experience. 3) Knowledge of computers and statistical software. 4) Out of state travel will be required. ADVERTISEMENT RESEARCH ASSOCIATE II The Center for Drug and Alcohol Studies at the University of Delaware is seeking an individual for the position of Research Associate. Major responsibilities include but are not limited to: initiating articles for publication in scientific journals, writing grant proposals, initiating and interpreting SPSS statistical analyses. Requirements include a Bachelor's degree in one of the health, social, or behavioral sciences or related field, plus three to five years research experience and/or qualitative research experience (Master's Degree with one to two years research experience is desirable but not required). Thorough knowledge of computers and statistical software as well as out of state travel are required. Send resume to: Dr. James A. Inciardi, Center for Drug and Alcohol Studies, University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716. Minimum salary is $26,165. DEADLINE: November 29, 1993 The University of Delaware is an Equal Opportunity Employer which encourages applications from qualified Minority Group Members and Women. Duties involve the ability to perform a variety of tasks in the research process, including but not limited to: 1) Initiating articles for publication in scientific journals, incorporating suggestions from other faculty members and researchers, editing and producing final versions of articles. 2) Designing, writing, and coordinating grant proposals to federal, state and other agencies for the funding of research projects. 3) Initiating and interpreting SPSS statistical analyses of database information from research projects and/or conducting qualitative studies of health related phenomena. 4) Conducting literature searches and preparing annotated bibliographies. 5) Assembling and producing materials, both written and graphic (i.e. charts, graphs, slides, and posters) for the presentation of research results at scientific meetings. 6) Acting as liaison with funding agencies in order to solve problems and facilitate communication with faculty and staff. 7) Supervising other staff members in generating information and support needed for production of reports, articles, and grant proposals. 8) Maintaining a central file for bibliographic references, audio-visual, articles, and presentations prepared by faculty pertaining to research projects. 9) Monitoring grant operations including data entry and field research. 10) Assisting the Principal Investigator and Co- investigators with management/supervisory issues. Minimum requirements for this position are: 1) Bachelor's degree in one of the health, social, or behavioral sciences or related field. 2) Three (3) to five (5) years research experience and/or qualitative research experience Master's Degree with one (1) to two (2) years experience is desirable but not required. 3) Knowledge of computers and statistical software. 4) Out of state travel will be required. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Nov 24 17:36:53 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Wed, 24 Nov 1993 17:35:25 -0800 for socgrad-list Wed, 24 Nov 1993 17:35:20 -0800 for Date: Wed, 24 Nov 93 20:27:03 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: CAT To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU If no one else has offered, I would be most willing to assess possible postings for grammar and syntax. Certainly a scholarly forum such as this will wish to maintain the highest of standards in verbiage. I am certain I can support that objective--particularly if I can figure a method to get my keyboard to work properly when connected to the main frame. :) Happy Turkey day to one and all (unless you don't celebrate the US Thanksgiving, in which case you may choose to label the turkeys in your area with signs that say "Remember, You are what you eat!). Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 25 09:04:36 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 25 Nov 1993 09:03:41 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 25 Nov 1993 09:03:38 -0800 for From: roxburgh@epas.utoronto.ca (S Roxburgh) Subject: CAT To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1993 12:03:38 -0500 (EST) I go along with Klosky in thinking the CAT thing is a very bad idea. Not only does it smack of censorship, why add a layer of bureacracy to a system which has the potential to be free-flowing? As for debating with Ross Perot, I didn't realize that was possible - I thought he generally left the room if someone disagreed with him. Sorry if my grammar and syntax isn't up to snuff. Sue Roxburgh From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Nov 25 20:30:59 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Thu, 25 Nov 1993 20:29:52 -0800 for socgrad-list Thu, 25 Nov 1993 20:29:50 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 2266; Thu, Date: 25 Nov 1993 22:26:20 CST From: To: Subject: CAT nominations/Universal Symbol for Tongue-In-Cheek? I second the SKEE's nominations. I also suggest that anyone may nominate him/her/itself to be on the committee. It seems that the last little while there have been several people who have taken the committee duties upon themselves anyway. BTW, what is the universal symbol to designate that a comment should be taken tongue-in-cheek? Hope you all have/had a wonderful Thanksgiving weekend! Dave From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Nov 26 12:10:55 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Fri, 26 Nov 1993 12:09:49 -0800 for socgrad-list Fri, 26 Nov 1993 12:09:47 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931126150752.448; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 26 Nov 93 15:07:48 EDT Subject: tongue-in-cheek :-^) morten `tonguing a mercury filling' ender From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Nov 27 21:03:55 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sat, 27 Nov 1993 21:02:35 -0800 for socgrad-list Sat, 27 Nov 1993 21:02:33 -0800 for Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1993 21:02:32 -0800 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU unsub r2ell%akronvm%vm1.cc.uakron.edu@vm1.cc.uakron.edu socgrad From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Nov 28 13:36:54 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Sun, 28 Nov 1993 13:36:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Sun, 28 Nov 1993 13:36:02 -0800 for From: BREKHUS@zodiac.rutgers.edu Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 16:35:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: call for papers (on Sexuality) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hi Socgradders! I'm going to be organizing a graduate student roundtable on Sexuality at the ASA's in L.A. this summer and I'm still looking for a couple more people interested in presenting. The topic of sexuality is pretty broadly defined so if you think your work might fit under the category, it probably does. Interesting ethnographic, qualitative, or theoretical papers are preferred. If you're interested please e-mail me an abstract or send an abstract or complete paper to: Wayne Brekhus Rutgers University Sociology Dept. Lucy Stone Hall Livingston Campus P.O. Box 5072 New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5072 E-mail: Brekhus@zodiac.rutgers.edu If you have any questions or are interested, feel free to contact me by E-mail. Also, feel free to forward this message to grad. students not on socgrad who might be interested. Thanks, Wayne Brekhus Rutgers University From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 07:56:36 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 07:55:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 07:55:28 -0800 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Age Date: 29 Nov 93 09:30 EST Hi fellow socgrads -- I'm new to this bulletin board thanks to Morton Ender. I'm both a dissertator at the University of Maryland and a program director at the National Science Foundation. If I may add my two cents on the issue of age on vitae, it think its a moot point. As long as you put the year you received your BA on your vitae, most people will assume that you were 22 when you received it and do the appropriate mathematics to get a fairly decent approximation of your age. Even if you weren't 22, there are probably other things on your vitae that will give your age away, e.g., your employment history prior to receving your BA or your employment history between BA and PH.D. I see lots of vitae in my job and its not hard to determine how old people are. A rare few people put their birthdays on their vitae. I don't see where it makes much of a difference. The most use that I have put this information to with colleagues is to surprise them on their birthdays! Barbara From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 09:57:30 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 09:54:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 09:54:27 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 12:35:45 EST From: Jackay! Subject: AGE ON VITA To: AGE ON VITA DISCUSSANTS I would like to know the ages of the discussants along with their opinions. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 10:25:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 10:21:14 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 10:21:11 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931129131903.608; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 29 Nov 93 13:19:01 EDT Subject: Re: AGE ON VITA Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 12:35:45 EST From: Jackay! Subject: AGE ON VITA To: AGE ON VITA DISCUSSANTS I would like to know the ages of the discussants along with their opinions. i would like to know the ages of the of the opinions... morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 10:43:59 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 10:36:56 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 10:36:54 -0800 for From: bigdog@nevada.edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Age Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 10:36:48 -0800 I will age no vita before its time! Isn't the question the quality of us and our work the only consideration? Maybe under age we should all put Post Modern or Fractured Modern. Just a nasty thought. Dave From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 11:24:27 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 11:22:55 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 11:22:49 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 14:28 EST From: "Pamela M Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: writing well During a discussion about a month ago, Dan Ryan listed a number of suggestions for better writing. One of these was to surround yourself with good examples. I am therefore asking for suggestions. If anyone knows of extremely well-written articles (any topic, really) would you either post them to the list or send them to me privately. If I feel like it, maybe I'll make up a list and post it later in the week. Thank you Pam Paxton UPAMMP@unc.oit.unc.edu PS. Regarding CAT formation, I volunteer to write the first rejectable post. I will make sure it has... little relation to Sociology no relation to graduate students disgusting humor at least three un-called-for personal attacks on other socgradders is a minimum of five pages long and displays writing so dense that it is incomprehensible I will also be sure to make many spelling errors and numerous grammatical mistakes in the body of the text. I will neglect to include a subject line. :-^) (are we sure this is the universal symbol?!) no jokes that I am the most qualified to write this post, please... :) From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 11:32:21 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 11:30:45 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 11:30:36 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 14:15:10 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: Age on VITAE To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I can't believe there have been this many posts on this topic. I hope it at least proves one thing: number of posts does not vary as the gravity of the topic. Please, someone raise another question. If no one does, I will, and who knows WHAT that will mean! You have been warned! Dan P.S. Welcome back to everyone. Looks like most of us were on evacations. Any really good turkey stories? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 14:01:40 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:00:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:00:33 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 15:50:31 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: SKEE - You know what that means! To: Socgrad list First, someone acused ME of not supporting the CAT idea. I was truely offended. I love the idea. I think Pam is right on track with what should be in an unpostable post. As for the age thing, I have already stated my opinion - Put it on. As Barbara from UM says (was it CP or the BC?) there is enough info on the thing to let people know how old you are anyway! By the way, I'm 106, and proud of it! :^) I'm thinking of a good topic! Who do I send it to for approval before I send it to the list? No one else has made nominations! Does this mean my are accepted? I hope not, for I could not stand a political system based on apathy instead of interest! So, how apathetic is your department? SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 14:32:41 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:31:29 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:31:25 -0800 for From: S-JHERMSEN@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931129172930.416; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 29 Nov 93 17:29:23 EDT Subject: asa papers Hi everyone - I would like some info on papers presented at ASA by those of you who may have presented there before. The call for papers asks that completed papers be sent for regular sessions. What is generally meant by "completed papers" (that is, based on your experience)? Also, is there some general guide on how often to present the same paper? Do you know if it is generally acceptable to submit papers for presentation that you have presented elsewhere? I know we all get advice around our own departments and I'm curious to see what others out there in the soc-land think and practice. Joan From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 14:39:50 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:37:55 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 14:37:50 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 17:15:38 EST From: "Bob G." Subject: CAT STAMP To: socgrad RE: CAT perhaps we can have articles on the net that are both CAT approved and not CAT approved? Not to add more animals to the list, but perhaps there could be a CAT Seal? Just a thought. RE: apathetic departments Who cares? :) Bob G. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 15:37:52 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 15:33:40 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 15:33:37 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 18:32:16 EST From: Dan Organization: Yale University Subject: What kind of sound does a... To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU CAT seal make? From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 16:08:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 16:02:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 16:02:32 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 18:01:30 CST From: KLOSKY@VM1.NoDak.EDU Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network Subject: Bob G. To: Socgrad list Bob G. I have a piece of mail for you... Please send me, privately, your e-address... SKEE From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Nov 29 19:24:54 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:24:03 -0800 for socgrad-list Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:24:00 -0800 for Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 22:16:49 EST From: "Marlen R. Hancock" Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: AGE ON VITA To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU For whomever asked, I contributed a note stating I put my birthdate on my vita--that would tell the world that I am currently 46 and planning on 47 before too much longer. On a more provocative note (I hope), given the pervasiveness of male dominance in world societies, in which of those societies do women see themselves as having great control over their lives or important portions of their lives? What, if anything, do societies where women perceive themselves as having greater control have in common? Trying to come up with a new topic quickly :-^). Marni (the Cookie Monster) Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 00:54:51 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 00:53:51 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 00:53:50 -0800 for To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Matriarchal societies Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 00:53:47 -0800 From: neese@nevada.edu Hi Marni - In response to your question regarding societies in which women have/feel like they have more control. Well, this is reaching quite a few years back in cul- tural anthro, but I seem to remember the Hopi Indians (please, someone correct me if I'm wrong) that have a matrilineal descent thing going on. You know, the land and livestock are handed down on the WOMAN'S side of the family. This changes their whole outlook on "family". The women live with their brothers, and their husbands live with/take care of their sisters' families. Kids are raised by their mother, aunts, and uncles. However, (you knew it, right?), the oldest brother (As I recall it) acts as the mouthpiece for the eldest sister in the family at prayer meetings, etc. This way, the land stays in the blood related family and they don't have to deal with that little in-law problem. Again, this is how I remember it...any similarity to this and reality is purely coincidental. Great topic, though. I'd love to hear what you come up with. Denise - UNLV From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 05:20:58 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 05:19:51 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 05:19:50 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931130081755.288; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 30 Nov 93 08:17:49 EDT Subject: matriarchy in response to neese... there are some societies that have matrilineal systems, where descent and inheritence (livestock, land) are past down through the female's family called matrilineal; however, this is different from power and authority (matriarchy) with its defining feature being a wife having greater authority in family matters...within this definition, patriarchy is a cultural universal (assuming there's a man in the family)? morten `having g-r-e flashbacks' ender From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 09:02:49 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 08:59:30 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 08:59:28 -0800 for To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: matriarchy Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 08:59:20 -0800 From: neese@nevada.edu in response to morten - Thanks for the clarification on this matriarchy vs. matrilineal descent discussion. Interesting topic. However, was Marni asking about matriarchy? I think that was my word. Or was it about control, or *perception* of control? Marni -- fill us in. Is matrilineal descent what you were referring to, or was it matriarchy? Denise 'dying to discuss anything other than what I'm supposed to be studying' From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 10:02:47 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 09:59:37 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 09:59:34 -0800 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Matriarchy Date: 30 Nov 93 12:11 EST Two relatively good references that bear on matriachy are: Merle Stone, When God Was a Woman -- it uses anthropological data to reconstruct what society was like during the time of goddess worship, i.e, when women were worshiped; and Guttentag and Secord, Too Many Women? The Sex Ration Question -- it analyses societies (many Western-- and contemporary), where the sex-ratio is imbalanced in one direction or the other and what happens to the relationship between the sexes, including the power structure. From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 10:55:13 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 10:53:59 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 10:53:43 -0800 for VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with RFC822 id 3532; Tue, Date: 30 Nov 1993 10:08:06 CST From: To: Subject: Matri/Patri and Power I actually took a whole course on this stuff way back when -- really a good course with lots of neat info on stratification in other cultures. Morten is right the big thing is not the inheritence line but the amount of power. However, patriarchy is not necessarily a universal. This proffessor suggested that there really are some cultures that qualify as egalitarian. The culture she studied (and decided was egalitarian) just happened to be the Hopi. The reason she considers this an egalitarian culture is because although the men actually control the religion (through ritual and katchinas, etc.) the women actually control the domestic -- they own the house, land and the rest of it. So, although men have a good deal of power, women also do in their own right. Has anyone else heard anything that contradicts the universality of the patriarchy? As far as apathy in the department goes -- towards what? I have also come to the conclusion that occasionally things don't get done not because of apathy but because of committees. One bad committee chair can make it impossible to get even the simplest thing accomplished -- especially since you usually only have a semester within which to act. I have found committee work extremely frustrating. Diann From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 11:14:37 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 11:10:36 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 11:10:33 -0800 for Subject: Matri/Patri and Power To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 13:10:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Laura L. Fertwagner" Hello! I have had the good fortune to TA for an anthropologist this semester. There are other cultures that are egalitarian. The !Kung are an example (if I see one more movie about these folks...) as are many Hunter-gatherer societies. In fact, it is the women in these societies that provide most of the food. The fact that we call them "hunter-gatherer" instead of "gatherer-hunter" is the result of ethnocentric male anthropologists who made assumptions about gender roles that were not applicable to these cultures, giving more importance to men's roles, even tho' the culture itself treats everyone equally. Just my two cents... Laura From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 11:57:57 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 11:55:42 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 11:55:40 -0800 for From: S-ENDER@bss1.umd.edu via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.931130145345.288; To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: 30 Nov 93 14:53:39 EDT Subject: Re: Matri/Patri and Power my reading of both diann and laura's posting is that what constitutes egalitarianism is a clear boundary between the division of labor (a traditional society)...from this perspective even a mutually negotiated (post)modern family arrangement betweeen a couple where the husband works outside the home and wife works inside is egalitarian... ...my question of the hopi and !kung: are there rights of passage and symbolic rituals including a long slow dance and trance around the fire the night before the big gathering of nuts and berries by the women? :-^) morten From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 15:25:31 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 15:17:18 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 15:17:16 -0800 for To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: Matri/Patri and Power Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 15:18:35 -0800 From: Michael Lichter my reading of both diann and laura's posting is that what constitutes egalitarianism is a clear boundary between the division of labor (a traditional society)...from this perspective even a mutually negotiated (post)modern family arrangement betweeen a couple where the husband works outside the home and wife works inside is egalitarian... There are two trans-historical theories I know of which attempt to explain variations in power -- actual, not perceived -- between men and women. One is Marja Guttentag's theory, which argues that sex ratios are decisive. The more numerous women are relative to men the more social power they wield. This theory was mentioned earlier. The other is Friedrich Engels' theory, laid out in _Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State_, based on the work of the anthropologist Henry Lewis Morgan. In Engels' theory, the egalitarianism of the hunter-gatherer society is a result of a division of labor in which men and women have complimentary *and* equally important roles in the production and reproduction of everyday life. In these societies, men's and women's work are equally necessary to the survival of the community. As societies move from less productive forms of economic activity -- gathering and hunting and hunting and gathering ;) -- to more productive forms, e.g. animal husbandry, fixed agriculture -- the most important parts of production are in the men's sphere. Men come to control the surplus -- whatever is left over after subsistence needs -- and this tips the balance of power between the sexes decisively in men's favor. According to Karen Sacks' research on several African societies, the more developed the state of a society's productive technology, the more constrained are women's roles. Since power inequality is rooted in productive vs. reproductive roles, an equalitarian "traditional" husband/wife relationship would be an exception to the rule. Of course, it's not entirely clear why the gender divison of labor necessarily makes animal husbandry and fixed agriculture part of men's vs. women's work. The Navajo, I think, give agriculture to the men and animals (sheep) to the women. Another African society assumes women will work the fields, while men do the hunting -- or, more recently, do factory work away from home. It also doesn't explain why, if women do participate in productive labor outside the household, they are still stuck with the "other" burden of reproductive work. An excellent (in my opinion) collection of essays, a number of which touch on this topic, can be found in _Woman, Culture, and Society_, edited by Michelle Zimbalist Rosaldo and Louise Lamphere (1971, Stanford University Press). In particular "Is Female to Male as Nature is to Culture?" by Sherry B. Ortner "Engels Revisited: Women, the Organiation of Production, and Private Property" by Karen Sacks "The Myth of Matriarchy: Why Men Rule in Primitive Society" by Joan Bamberger The last is especially interesting, in that Bamberger finds in indigenous South American societies myths about the bad old days in which women used to rule, how men overthrew the women, and how men must continue to keep women out of power. Unlike others, she refuses to accept the myths as evidence that women ever did rule these societies, arguing that, without further evidence, they must be taken as merely legitimating ideologies. Michael From socgrad-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Nov 30 17:36:05 1993 sendmail 8.6.4/UCSD-2.2-sun Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:34:11 -0800 for socgrad-list Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:34:08 -0800 for Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 20:16:30 EST From: Joya Misra Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: Submitting papers to ASA To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I'm in the middle of grading hell...as well as dissertation purgatory, but I did want to comment on-list about presenting papers at ASA. My experience has been that it's OK to send papers out that are only rough approximations of the final product. You do want to have a well- developed theory section, and some preliminary analyses (quantitative or qualitative) but you won't have to send the final version of the paper out til like end of June or July I think. My feeling about it is that if it's between not submitting a paper for presention at all or submitting a rough one, you should go with submitting a rough one. I don't think I have ever submitted a final draft of a paper for a presentation. Anyway, any paper you present will eventually be revised to submit for publication, so don't think of it as the end-all be-all. I've never presented the same talk twice, but I have presented pieces from the same paper more than once. I choose some particular aspect to focus on, give the talk a slightly different slant/title, and gofrom there. Remember, you're only allowed to chat for 20 minutes, and you can't just throw out a million and one little facts and figures, you need to focus on a few principle issues and try and engage your audience's attention. I really want to encourage you all to send in something for ASA. If you are worried about giving a formal presentation, you can alwayss submit to a roundtable, which is fun and less intimidating. As many of you know, once you go to a few conferencesyou realize that most of the talks given are pretty bad, and that makes giving talks yourself much easier. People really don't take these things that seriously, ASA conferences are much more about networking and gathering with old friends than cutting-edge research -- you have togo to the smaller more narrowly focused conferences for that. Best ofluck to you all. By the way, I am on the program committee for the SSSP - we hold our meetings the few days before ASA in Los Angeles (SSSP=Society for the Study of Social Problems) and I want to encourage you guys to submit papers there too! SSSP is a lot of fun, really great grounded and interesting people, wonderful sessions. Let me know if you want more information. Joya Misra SOCAK663@EMUVM1.BITNET OR SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU ********************************************************************* Dept. of Sociology Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322