From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 08:18:22 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 08:11:15 -0700 for Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 10:12:46 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Research in the Land of Oz To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY I've just finished updating an old article which uses the characters and events from the Wizard of Oz with which to help grad students take a look at graduate study and research in American Sociology...the original version appeared in Soc Enquiry around 1976...today's mini-lecture is one I give to every class I teach...usually in March a few days before CBS runs the movie from MGM...in this version, I deconstruct the characters and events; returning them to the political/historical context from which L. Frank Baum took them when he wrote the book in 1899...most of the points are in the large literature which surrounds this book and the other 14 or so he wrote...some of it comes from my own exegesis of those times. If you want the lecture in full along with a map of the Land of Oz and a Certificate signed by me asserverating your mastery of this wondrous tale, send me your snailmail address. Yes, you can have the new version entitled; Graduate Study in the Land of Oz. A. The Wizard of Oz is an Easter story which embodies change, renewal and rebirth. It teaches a lesson of which we never tire: that with love, intellige nce, courage and a sense of community, people could build quite a good society. B. Dorothy represents the quest for community. She personifies those who are still young enough to hope and to act. Dorothy is Dorothy Everybody but in this story, she is any graduate student who will confront the two wicked Witches in American Sociology...will help of course from the two good witches C. Aunt Em and Uncle Henry...represent your professors who, when they were young, had '...sparkle in their eyes and red in their cheeks.' But, alas, they have grown grey and sober and no longer smile. D. Kansas and the farm on which Dorothy lived represents the hard times of the country after the two great depressions of 1873 and 1893. E. Toto was the one bright spot in Dorothy's life...what are the bright spots in your life as a grad student?? F. Oz is Utopia. With bright colors, happy people and a brook which bubbles nearby, Oz is the possibility of a good and decent society after racism, gender oppression and class inequalities are solved with the help of emancipatory knowledge; good theory and good politics. G. The Wicked Witch from the East, in Baum, represented finance capital who cast a spell on the workers and turned them into Munchkins. Munchkins are people made small by the conditions of their work...are you a Munchkin? F. The Good Witch from the North is named Jocasta; she gave Dorothy the kiss of Goodness which protected her on the Yellow Brick Road. G. The Yellow Brick road represented the Gold Standard and the policy of tight money and high interest rates; it was controlled by the two Wicked Witches...one needed silver [not ruby] slippers to travel on the Yellow Brick Road...that is why Dorothy wore them...they represent leaving the Gold Standard, adopting currency backed by silver as well as low interest. H. The Strawman was a put-down of farmers who didn't have enough brains to vote for Wm. Jennings Bryan in the election of 1892. He was hung on a cross to scare the crows away from the corn [Wm. J. Bryan used the same icon when in his campaign, he said, American Capital will not hang the workers on a Cross of Gold...Vachel Lindsay wrote a poem about Bryan...you can have it, too, along with all the songs from the Movie if you want]. I. The Tin Woodsman is an interesting icon; he represents all factory workers turned into machines...he worked for the WW from the East; he had a sweet- heart and loved her but the WW made him work so hard that he cut off his arms, then his legs, then the heart from out his chest...he no longer could love...does that happen in sociological research??? J. The Cowardly Lion was a bitter slur on Wm. J. Bryan who, after being defeated for the presidency, refused to run again.He raved and roared at Toto but was afraid to confront the rich and powerful...are there cowardly lions on your faculty? ...in American Sociology?? In American Politics? K. The Wizard of Oz represented alienated politics; he could give back to the people only that which was rightly theirs...the power to have courage, brains, love and solidarity. L. The Emerald City was, of course, Washington D.C. where political humbugs lived...it was green since green is the color of money. Note that the Yellow Brick Road led to Washington. M. The Flying Monkeys were probably the newly freed slaves; MGM turned them into Russian Cossacks because MGM was having labor problems at the time. They also ordered the song, Somewhere, Over the Rainbow removed from the movie since it promised too much to too many..Y.P.Harburg wrote it. He also wrote the music for Finian's Rainbow...the Finians were Irish rebels. N. The poppy field represents anything that puts people to sleep. Monday Night Football, beer busts, and Structural Functionalism. O. There is a lot more to the story left out by Hollywood...the Tinman steps on worker ants and weeps...long before he got a heart from the Wizard he acted with love and compassion. P. The four were chased by Giant Kahidahs, the 'cowardly' Lion confronted them and saved the group. Q. They came to the first of two ditches [the depression of 1873] and there before he got a brain from the Wizard, the Strawman figured out how to get across. R. When they got to the Emerald City, the Wizard told them that they would first have to kill the Wicked Witch from the West...Dorothy said that she didn't really want to kill anybody but if she must she would. She did. S. After she killed the WWW, they went back to see the Wizard, because, well, just because of the wonderful things he does. The Wizard opened up a bag of bran and gave the Strawman a 'bran-new' brain; he took out a bottle and gave the Lion a drink since a lot of people get courage from a bottle. He opened up the chest of the Tin man and put in a red silk valentine so the Tinman could find his love and marry her. Lots of puns and icons in the story left out. T. There were the hammerheads who were rooted to the same spot and used their head to knock down anyone who disagreed with them...there were the beautiful China people whom every one stepped on and crushed...there was the Octopus which grabbed everything within reach...and lots more. One should read the book oneself but the points above are the heart of the story...note that, long before they got to Wash.D.C., they found enough brains, courage, love and solidarity to do what had to be done. You too, must find enough brains, courage, and compassion to become the four cornered moral person you could be...and find it you must in your reading of feminist, marxist, critical theory, and postmodern critique if you are too put the wonderful tools available to you to work all the days of your life to make this great country and people of ours fulfill the promises we make in the Constitution and in our various religions. T. R. Young, Official Radical Historian of The Great and Wondrous Land of Oz From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 18:09:59 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 18:06:10 -0700 for Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 21:02:02 EDT From: Marni Hancock Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: TR YOUNG To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Maybe we discussed this before and I missed or forgot it, but how did we become the target audience for lectures from TR Young? I don't guess they're too much of a problem--I'm as good with the delete key(s) as the next person--but I prefer to dialog on SOCGRAD. Is something happening that I just don't understand? Thanks, Marni Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 19:26:40 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:18:16 -0700 for Date: Sun, 02 Oct 94 21:11:19 CDT From: Tony Martin Subject: T R YOUNG To: SOCGRAD I would like to know if there is any way to prevent correspondence from particular addresses from being posted in my mailbox! Lengthy rhetoric is not a favorite of mine -- I would enjoy the opportunity to simply avoid it! From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 19:38:33 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:34:53 -0700 for Date: Sun, 2 Oct 94 22:34:51 EDT From: David Gibson To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: TR Young Marni, I've only now returned to SOCGRAD after a time away, but I was able to look back at old postings (due to the way I receive them), and I believe that TR Young's first message was on April 24, when he announced, "I will reproduce one of the mini-lectures assembled over the years for socgrad email as long as grad students think it useful." I can't find that anyone objected at the time, but I second your objection now, if only because Youn's lectures don't seem to be sparking any conversation among the rest of us, who he evidently fashions as hisstudents, and may even be inhibinting people, since no one wants to take the floor from a Red Feather Institute scholar, lest she or he appear politically incorrect. David Gibson From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 19:41:16 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:38:01 -0700 for Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 20:37:59 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: TR YOUNG To: Marni Hancock I've wondered the same thing...figured maybe I just joined the list late or something. On Sun, 2 Oct 1994, Marni Hancock wrote: > Maybe we discussed this before and I missed or forgot it, but how did > we become the target audience for lectures from TR Young? I don't guess > they're too much of a problem--I'm as good with the delete key(s) as the > next person--but I prefer to dialog on SOCGRAD. Is something happening > that I just don't understand? > Thanks, > Marni Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 19:43:53 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:40:23 -0700 for From: halebsky@ssc.wisc.edu Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:32:59 -0500 To: "socgrad@ucsd.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: T R Young I, too, feel that Mr./Ms. Young is more interested in pontificating than in dialoguing. How do others feel about this?in pontificating Steve Halebsy (that should be Halebsky) UW-Madison From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 20:41:20 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 20:37:42 -0700 for Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 22:31:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Frederick Ohr Subject: Re: TR Young To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Ok, I'll bite, being a member of a minority group(Korean-American) I,ll ask the politically incorrect question: What is a "Red Feather Institute Scholar" and why are people so hesitant to question writings put out for the general sociological graduate community to read? It seems to me that academia is under general attack because we seem to be one of the fewe remaining institutions in society willing to question and challenge the call for everyone to be the same, to all think and act in a prescribed manner, to practice and believe in only certain values. But I digress, and this doesn't answer my aoriginal question, perhaps another time. So, if someone knows and would be willing to enlighten me I would appreciate it. Roger Ohr UW-Milwaukee From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 21:04:08 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:00:20 -0700 for Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 00:00 EDT From: "Doug Smith: Computer Czar--LuvDoug" Subject: Re: TR Young To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Well, I can't answer what a Red Feather Scholar is. Don't much care (no offense). You ask why people are hesitant to question this student of sociology (and yes, we are all students of sociology) but you are talking about questioning the material in his "lecture". Up to this time only a couple of people have actually responded to his writing. This discussion tonight is different. This discussion seems to focus on whether TR Young has a right to post his sociological lectures to the list. Granted the tone of the material does not lend itself to dialog, but as far as I'm concerned he has the right to continue posting. Don't criticize him for posting. If you want dialog, start some. Sooo....Anybody read the special issue of Sociological Forum on "What is Wrong with Sociology"? I think Molotch's piece is a beauty. The last article in the issue is also good. I'm still reading the issue, anybody else got a favorite? Any dialog? Steppin' off my high horse, D. Clayton Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chad C. Mulligan was a sociologist. He gave it up. - John Brunner Stand On Zanzibar ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 22:01:06 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:57:27 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:57:19 -0700 To: DCS1@psuvm.psu.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: TR Young Yes, I am yet another who has been somewhat confused regarding the posted "lectures" by TR Young. I have looked in Melvyl for references to his work and gophered to his location (but their addresses and phone listings are not running yet). I have done this to quietly (Sorry Mr. or Dr. Young) check his credibility. I have no personal objection to his posting. He sounds like he is offereing a FREE education and that is a wonderful thing. I would that all my Profs would put lectures etc on line! But, as I am something of a neophile, I still have a hard time telling when someone is just tooting a big vocabulary or really is offering insight or information. (I have read Progressive SOcy for too long and find it to be awfully one-upmanlike). I'm sure glad this has become a topic. I should hope that it gets included in an FAQ if one exists or is in the works. Best all, Eric ======================================================================== Eric Strayer |"All that is solid melts into air" | estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu | *** Marx | | "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best | * student * beggar * | friend. Inside of a dog, its too dark | * dilettante* | to read." Marx | ======================================================================== From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 2 22:02:34 1994 Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:58:58 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:58:55 -0700 To: DCS1@psuvm.psu.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: TR Young (one more thing) I'm more than a little curious why TR Young needs (or uses, anyway) an encrypted address...? es From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 06:11:39 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:09:58 -0700 for Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 09:09 EDT From: "Jetaway Dave" Subject: Re: TR YOUNG To: rpalm@unm.edu Hey now, It's not like TR YOUNG floods us with postings. I rather enjoyed the OZ posting, though he could have gone a bit more into the populist meanings of the story. No one forces you to read an entire post if you don't like it. If you dislike his posts, delete them as soon as you ascertain that the post is from him. Joya! Send me your e-mail address please. I was snoozing and the computer gods deleted a giant batch of mail files. Jetaway Dave From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 06:37:50 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:36:58 -0700 for Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 09:37:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Wanda Kosinski Subject: young lectures To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU After reading the responses to Young's recent posting (I admit I did not read the entire "lecture" but I glanced through it) I have several thoughts I'd like to share with the others on this list. I'd like Young to share with us (me) how s/he finds the time to write up these lectures and post them. I'm teaching two sections of research methods in addition to working full-time and its all I can do sometimes to keep up with lecture preps for upcoming classes, have enough time for office hours (and beyond for my students who find SPSS somewhat puzzling), grading papers, etc. etc. and maintaining some sort of social life. Perhaps these "lectures" could be made available only to those who wish to receive them. Or, they might be limited to one or two screens of information. I would not suggest that Young be prevented from posting, but s/he should be aware (and most likely is by now) of how others are receiving her/his postings and respond accordingly. One last comment and I'll get off my soap box: I found it curious that some readers assumed young to be a teacher of sociology (if I remember correctly someone actually referred to her/him as "Dr."). The letters Ph.D. after someone's name have little to do with that person's ability, or desire, to teach at all or well. Some people complete the process only to realize (too late, especially for their unfortunate students) that they are not teachers, but there is little else they find themselves able to do so they continue "teaching." As I see it, a good teacher does not fill up the air waves with lecture, lecture, lecture. S/he is confident to settle back from time to time and to listen to what her/his students have to say about what they need in order to learn. Well, I've gone on long enough (perhaps too much). Thanks for listening. Wanda :***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***: : "the purpose of life is a life of purpose" : : "be alive and risking, not safe and dead" : :******:******:******:******:******:******:******:******: : wanda kosinski : : division of basic studies : : ramapo college of new jersey : : 505 ramapo valley road : : mahwah, new jersey 07430 : : 201/529-7560 : : email: wkosinsk@ultrix.ramapo.edu : :***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***: From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 06:54:46 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:53:39 -0700 for Date: Mon, 03 Oct 94 09:44:38 EDT From: Marni Hancock Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: TR YOUNG To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I guess that to this point Wanda comes closest to my position regarding the"Young" postings when she closes with the comment about good teachers not feeling required to lecture. I read a few of Young's early postings but find that they don't add much to my knowledge base. I already know lots of things. My trouble is learning what to do with what I know and that happens best for me in reading and contributing to the dialogs occurring online. Additionally, from my position as a grad student, I find lots of faculty members at my own institution ready, willing, able and intent upon lecturing me re: sociology. What I'm finding most useful is the dialog among peers where those peers have widely divergent perspectives on any given subject. When it comes to these issues, I find that TR Young's contributions are a distraction, almost an irritant. Thus, my original question. Thanks for the responses and additional comments. Marni Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 08:24:38 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:22:10 -0700 for Date: Mon, 03 Oct 94 11:14:14 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: tr young To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I missed the original complaint about TR Young's postings, but I would like to make one comment about the defense of his right to post: I agree that everyone has a right to post their perspectives, and they even have a right to frame their posts any way they like. I personally find TR Young's legitimation-ploy (i.e., since it is "sponsored" by an "institute", it is some- how more than just another perspective from another grad student) annoying, and habitually discard his/her posts unread. If you have something to say, just say it! -steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 08:31:51 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:30:36 -0700 for Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:26 EDT From: SCOTT BLAKE Subject: T.R. Young To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hi folks. I thought I'd add my humble opinion to the discussion. I happen to find the weekly postings from hir stimulating. I especially like that sie usually posts on Sunday morning. It resonates with something way back in my rejected Christian upbringing that is quite pleasant. I like it so much that I wrote to hir to get the floppy of full-length papers and assorted other stuff. I have not yet found time to read everything (~1.2M), but what I have read is very insightful. I don't think that Young's work is very well documented, it is often short on "facts" and, IMHO, more or less falls into the category of speculation. Sociology could use a little more speculation. We have become afraid to guess -- or, at best, believe it to be a futile endevor. Why? Where do new ideas come from if to from taking a guess? We are all, I think, inundated with competing modes of inquiry, methodolgies, theories -- all footsteps to follow in. The injection of a little dreamy, unsubstantiated, intuitive guess about the world might, just might, open up some places of interest that maybe we haven't thought of before. I hope that Young continues to post and I would encourage people to take some time and try to figure out what sie is saying, and not saying. Scott Blake Brandeis University From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 10:24:51 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:17:45 -0700 for From: D.W.Weatherston@newcastle.ac.uk Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 18:20:04 +0000 To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Subject: T R Young Speaking as someone who works on his own in a politics dept. that is filled with folk who ask me how as a sociologist I manage to sleep at nights, I not only look forward to T Rs postings but send off for his papers. Thank you T.R. regds. David D.W.Weatherston@ncl.ac.uk From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 10:58:06 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:51:04 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:51:01 -0700 To: BLAKE@binah.cc.brandeis.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: T.R. Young I liked Scott Blakes unveiling of the ever-present relm of "speculation." I find it very funny that I can read someone like Baudriallaud (sp?) or Roland Barthes and put their "thoughts" in a paper as a citation, yet they have merely (but often wonderfully) speculated, or at least spoken from a less-than- scientific point of view. In fact (and this addresses a comment on credibility that questioned the need for PhD etc.) it is the credibility of these people that have given a scholarly venue for their "speculation." I know this argument can be nit-picked, but in general I think it is supportable. There seems to be a "chain of knowledge," that requires continual citation and reference, but which goes back to history's origins (Greek, Asian, etc) where the knowedge-base was more subjective in that it hadn't been tested by consensus (if not so-called scientific evidence). NOW I am getting out of my depth. BTW, why haven't people challenged any of Young's postings for discussion? Best, Eric From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 11:20:10 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:12:32 -0700 for Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:07:15 +0000 From: Gregory Yelland Subject: Re: T.R. Young To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Hi all, I think that we shouldn't be telling T.R. to stop or even self-censor. We are all adults and should have the ability to decide what we want to read or not read and the del key isn't hard to find. Personally, I don't know enough about postmodernity and find T.R.'s posting's stimulating even if they tend to seem more like speculation than academic writings. After all shouldn't developing sociologists speculate a bit about the world around them? Not wanting to offend, just to state my own feelings. Cheers, Gregory S. Yelland From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 11:28:49 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:19:08 -0700 for Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:19:07 -0700 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: TR Young FYI, T.R. Young is not a subscriber to Socgrad. So unless you cc'ed your messages to him, he wouldn't have seen any of the discussion around his mini-lectures. So if you have complaints, comments, cheers, or questions you want him to address, you should probably email directly to him. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 12:09:54 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:06:42 -0700 for From: hg8lvs@ha5kfu.sch.bme.hu Date: Mon, 03 Oct 94 18:55:55 UTC To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: T.R. Young channel??? Hi folks, I've subscribed recently and I wonder if socgrad is nothing more than a T.R. Young channel... The Oz article is very superficial (in my opinion) but I enjoyed it for one particular reason: Being a Hungarian I have never had a chance to read the English version of the story. So, if only for that reason, I would like to see the other (earlier) messages sometimes. Please, Mr/Ms Young, just send me those back issues. My address is: hg8lvs@ha5kfu.sch.bme.hu on the internet e-mail system. Be sure to keep them in chunks that are less then 10K, because the system I use doesn't work well with larger ones. Thanks. Ervin From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 13:01:08 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:52:02 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:51:58 -0700 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Who is TR Young? Very stimulated dialogue going on here! But, well, just who is T.R. Young? What is her/his special interests and experience? Before I mail her/him, just thought I would ask. Maybe we can be done with this shortly. I'm beginning to feel sort of "me-too" now, and having been notified that s/he does not subscribe to this group (odd isn't it?) feel like I'm talking behing his/her back. Later, eric From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 3 13:01:47 1994 Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:54:42 -0700 for Date: Mon, 03 Oct 94 14:36:43 CDT From: Tony Martin Subject: to clarify! To: Socgrad Boy, HOWDY! I never expected to get as much response as I seem to have sparked! Back to my original statements -- I would simply enjoy the freedom to avoid those situations that I have come to feel serve no useful purpose. Not once did I assume to be so presumptious as to disallow the full and unrestricted freedom of expression. If TR Young wants to express his or her opinion, go for it! I personally want to maintain the right to avoid that opinion. In sociological inquiry, the first requirement involves the pertinence of the inquiry--what useful purpose does it hold. At the risk of offending anyone, i do not feel that young's discussions are pertinent. That is not to be confused with the views of anyone else. I do find it extremely odd that someone would post debate in a forum in which they are unable to receive the comments concerning their original statements. I can only presume that Young feels that his comments are of such magnitude that they will stand completely above reproach. For those of you that enjoy his comments, keep enjoying them. I would like to keep his comments out of my mailbox. Adios! Tony Martin From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 04:24:35 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 04:22:50 -0700 for by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V4.3-11 #5489) id <01HHU5DXRF0099W46Q@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>; Mon, 03 Oct 1994 10:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 1994 10:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU From: 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Christopher Gunn) Subject: Re: T R YOUNG To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU >I would like to know if there is any way to prevent correspondence from >particular addresses from being posted in my mailbox! Lengthy rhetoric is not >a favorite of mine -- I would enjoy the opportunity to simply avoid it! I think (although I don't have hands-on experience) that the commercial, payware version of Eudora (2.x) implements 'filters,' so that you could route any 'T. R. Young' posts to a special mailbox whose only function is to be emptied. I believe you could do that, anyway. But I've got a better idea. Why don't we find the procedure to gateway SOCGRAD to a Usenet news.group? That way, people with Usenet (net.news) access could pick and choose what they read, and a wider audience would be addressed in the bargain. The equivalent psychology mailing list, 'psychgrad' is gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup bit.listserv.psychgrad. Since SOCGRAD is not a Bitnet-based mailing list (I don't think so, anyway; maybe it has a Bitnet manifestation, too), this wouldn't be an appropriate spot. There's an extremely low-traffic alt.sci.sociology newsgroup already out there, but it would probably be bad etiquette to attempt to take it over. Maybe the best procedure would be to use proper channels to create an alt.sci.sociology.socgrad newsgroup whose sole purpose is a SOCGRAD mirror/gateway. It would be desirable, eventually, to have a sci.sociology in the regular Usenet hierarchy. (I don't know how well alt.sociology propagates; my guess is not particularly well.) However, I doubt if there's enough Usenet sociology traffic to get a positive vote for a sci.sociology creation. (It takes 100 supporters or more.) Having a moderate-traffic alt.sci.sociology.socgrad would be a start in the right direction. End campaign speech. Apologize if this idea has been discussed in the past and rejected. (I've only been following SOCGRAD since May.) Re: T. R. Young. I checked the Eudora mailbox where I save sociology-related traffic and note that I've kept six (6) of T. R. Young's posts here at work, and several more at home, for ideas/references they contain. That suggests to me that they're fairly useful. Whether they're wholly appropriate is another matter. One of the main activities on the psychgrad list/newsgroup (which I check every now and then on behalf of my wife, who refuses to become an Internet addict herself) is chasing away rogue faculty members who don't respect the list's mandate to be student-only. I saved a copy of the 'welcome' notice sent on subscription, and note that SOCGRAD is supposed to be 'open to all Sociology students in Masters or Ph.D. programs.' I don't know the extent to which this message is to be construed as an official charter. I would feel uncomfortable about attempts to be rigid about this matter. That sort of policing on 'psychgrad' strikes me as unfriendly and authoritarian, with a reverse-status twist ('Nobody here but us peons, dammit...'). But that's a high-traffic mailing list and perhaps some policing is necessary. I'm not sure it is on SOCGRAD. Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 04:24:36 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 04:22:08 -0700 for Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:22:06 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: RE: who is tr young To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion I picked this bio up from the progressive sociology section of the gopher= =20 server at csf.colorado.edu. There is also a brief history of the Red=20 Feather Inst. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA Brief R=82sum=82 T. R. Young May 20, 1993 T. R. Young is founder and director of the Red Feather Institute for Advanced Studies in Sociology [1971]. He is editor of the Transforming Sociology Series and author of many articles and books oriented to emancipatory knowledge and participatory science. Young contributes to democratic knowledge processes in politics, economics, medicine, religion, education and the arts. Young has taught social theory, social problems and social psychology at several colleges and universities around the country including Iowa Wesleyan, Rocky Mountain College in Montana, Southwest Missouri State, Colorado State University, the University of Colorado at Boulder and the University of Michigan at Flint. He held the post of Distinguished Visiting Professor at Texas Women's University in 1991. In 1992-93, he served as Distinguished Visiting Professor at Virginia Tech where he developed a syllabus for very large classes entitled, The Great Flying Chaos Learning Circus, an effort to design an interactively rich course for beginning students in sociology. During the 60s, 70s and 80s, Young was a faculty resource person for student power movements, antiwar activities as well as Civil Rights and the women's movement on campus. Young founded the Martin Luther King Fellowship Fund at Colorado State University the day after King's assassination. It continues to support minority students. Young taught at Makerere University in Uganda in 1971-72 during the difficult days of Idi Amin and was part of an underground network of scholars which smuggled letters and documents to the US media and to members of Congress concerning human rights violations there. Young was appointed an Honorary Research Fellow at Exeter University in 1980 where he visited the major centers of cultural studies there. In 1985, Young participated in the Semester of Sea Program of the University of Pittsburgh, accompanying 350 students around the world to study social problems and stratification of politics, capital and social honor in Pacific Rim countries, Malaysia, India, Turkey, USSR, Yugoslavia and Spain. Young has visited Cuba, Nicaragua and Mexico several times to learn about social problems and social programs there. In 1987, Young was awarded the Distinguished Scholar Award of the Pacific Sociological Society for his work in the political economy and social psychology of sport. Currently, Young is working through the implications of postmodern understandings in the philosophy of science in a four volume set, the first of which is published as The Drama of Social Life (Transaction Books). In recent years, Young has written foundational articles on Chaos theory and nonlinear social dynamics. He carries on a very active schedule of writing, lecturing and engagement in the discipline. His present work is in the sociology of religion grounded in symbolic interaction theory and the human construction of social realities. Young was born in Flint, Michigan, married Dorothy Jean Grace, a childhood friend and has five children from that marriage. Dorothy died in accident in 1981. Young lives and works out of Innisfree Cottage on Lake Isabella in Michigan. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 05:55:54 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 05:54:54 -0700 for Tue, 4 Oct 94 8:54:53 +1100 From: "MORTON ENDER" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 08:54:28 EDT Subject: call for abstracts ****CALL FOR ABSTRACTS**** EASTERN SOCIOLOGICAL SOCIETY Theme: For the Children 65th Annual Meeting March 30 - April 2, 1995 Wyndam Hotel, Philadelphia, PA In conjunction with the theme--For the Children--the District of Columbia Sociological Society is co-sponsoring two panels with the ESS entitled: Panel 1: "Organization Families and Their Children" Panel 2: "Military Families and Their Children" Anyone (e.g., graduate students) may submit 500-1000 word abstracts rather than full papers on one or both of the panels by October 21, 1994 (authors will be notified in January) to: Morten G. Ender Department of Sociology University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 tel. 301 405-7707 fax 301 314-6892 e-mail S-ENDER@BSS1.UMD.EDU E-mail for further information. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 06:04:42 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 06:03:59 -0700 for Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:03:56 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: RE: who is tr young To: James Cassell At times T R Young has sounded a bit quirky and evangelical to me. I have nothing against quirky--makes life interesting--but unlike Scott Blake, I was raised an atheist and sermons on any day of the week usually send me packing. However, I think T R has some interesting viewpoints, and as a couple of other subscribers have noted, perhaps as sociologists we could stand to be turned around and faced another direction to look at things to get out of our mainstream complacency (a professor of mine is always telling me I need to post in the "mainline" journals). I have particularly liked his lectures about chaos theory. I can always spot his posts in my e-mail directory because of their titles and that they're always in caps, so if I'm not in the mood, they're real easy to delete without even having to read them. But I think he has a right to post whatever he wants--the rest of us want the same right, don't we?? free speech and all that, short of flaming and otherwise gross bad manners of course! (By the way, where does respect for free speech stop and ostracization for bad manners or unpopular viewpoints start?) Besides, it sounds like he might have some pretty good "Real World" experience to bring to our shallow, ivory tower, dependent-upon-journal-articles- written-by-other-ivory-tower-inmates existence.=20 On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, James Cassell wrote: > I picked this bio up from the progressive sociology section of the gopher= =20 > server at csf.colorado.edu. There is also a brief history of the Red=20 > Feather Inst. >=20 > Jim > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU > Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 > University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 > Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA >=20 > Brief R=82sum=82 T. R. Young May 20, 1993 >=20 > T. R. Young is founder and director of the Red Feather > Institute for Advanced Studies in Sociology [1971]. He is editor > of the Transforming Sociology Series and author of many articles > and books oriented to emancipatory knowledge and participatory > science. Young contributes to democratic knowledge processes in > politics, economics, medicine, religion, education and the arts. > Young has taught social theory, social problems and social > psychology at several colleges and universities around the > country including Iowa Wesleyan, Rocky Mountain College in > Montana, Southwest Missouri State, Colorado State University, the > University of Colorado at Boulder and the University of Michigan > at Flint. He held the post of Distinguished Visiting Professor > at Texas Women's University in 1991. In 1992-93, he served as > Distinguished Visiting Professor at Virginia Tech where he > developed a syllabus for very large classes entitled, The Great > Flying Chaos Learning Circus, an effort to design an > interactively rich course for beginning students in sociology. > During the 60s, 70s and 80s, Young was a faculty resource > person for student power movements, antiwar activities as well as > Civil Rights and the women's movement on campus. Young founded > the Martin Luther King Fellowship Fund at Colorado State > University the day after King's assassination. It continues to > support minority students. Young taught at Makerere University > in Uganda in 1971-72 during the difficult days of Idi Amin and > was part of an underground network of scholars which smuggled > letters and documents to the US media and to members of Congress > concerning human rights violations there. Young was appointed an > Honorary Research Fellow at Exeter University in 1980 where he > visited the major centers of cultural studies there. In 1985, > Young participated in the Semester of Sea Program of the > University of Pittsburgh, accompanying 350 students around the > world to study social problems and stratification of politics, > capital and social honor in Pacific Rim countries, Malaysia, > India, Turkey, USSR, Yugoslavia and Spain. Young has visited > Cuba, Nicaragua and Mexico several times to learn about social > problems and social programs there. In 1987, Young was awarded > the Distinguished Scholar Award of the Pacific Sociological > Society for his work in the political economy and social > psychology of sport. > Currently, Young is working through the implications of > postmodern understandings in the philosophy of science in a four > volume set, the first of which is published as The Drama of > Social Life (Transaction Books). In recent years, Young has > written foundational articles on Chaos theory and nonlinear > social dynamics. He carries on a very active schedule of > writing, lecturing and engagement in the discipline. His present > work is in the sociology of religion grounded in symbolic > interaction theory and the human construction of social > realities. > Young was born in Flint, Michigan, married Dorothy Jean > Grace, a childhood friend and has five children from that > marriage. Dorothy died in accident in 1981. Young lives and > works out of Innisfree Cottage on Lake Isabella in Michigan. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 10:27:50 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:18:12 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:18:07 -0700 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: call for abstracts OK, my last thought on this. I _almost_ promise. Sounds like TR Young is giving us something that we may or may not accept by hitting our delete key a couple of times or not. I was impressed with his bio (thanks to all who forwarded it) and am now even more curious to read his stuff. Yes, a bit evangelical perhaps, but hey, some of our favorites (Marx, Engels, etc) wrote with a passionate flair. While his presentation to this group is anomolous to the general venue, I still think that I (for one) will cease to look the gift horse in the mouth. Best, Eric ===================================================================== Eric Strayer DoD#1120 | And the unix operator typed | estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu | rm a * | student, beggar, dilettante | and all was null and void | ===================================================================== From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 14:15:23 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:12:58 -0700 for From: NISAACSON@zodiac.rutgers.edu Date: Tue, 04 Oct 1994 17:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qual Research Computer Programs To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Well this is NOT a post about TR Young. I have a question regarding computer programs to evaluate qualitative research. I know this was discussed last year? but by mistake, I erased the information about it. If anyone can give me recommendations about what has worked well for them and is not too outrageously expensive I would appreciate it. I work on a Apple powerbook but I have access to a DOS system as well (although I would prefer not to use it). I am anticipating having interviews as well as some textual analysis for my dissertation research Thanks in advance! Nicky Isaacson Rutgers University NIAACSON@ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 18:33:59 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 18:32:42 -0700 for Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 18:32:40 -0700 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: administrative stuff I've been meaning for the last week or two to put out a "welcome back" message, but as usual have gotten lost in all kinds of other stuff. But now that TR Young has appeared to wake everyone up in a big way, I figured now is the time to make my annual plug to recruit new subscribers. New subscribers come to Socgrad solely through word-of-mouth, so in the spirit of keeping this forum thriving, I would ask all of you to inform the new grad students in your departments about it. Remember, to subscribe, someone just needs to send a message to listserv@ucsd.edu and in the body of the message type: sub socgrad Anyone with problems getting on, or figuring out how all this works can email me. Also, in response to Kit's comments: I think on occasion a few people have suggested making Socgrad a newsgroup, but it's never been seriously talked about. I think myself would oppose the idea, mainly because I can't stand using Usenet, and consequently never do. I find it's a whole lot more efficient to just delete email I don't want to read then to deal with the slowness and cumbersomeness of Usenet. But perhaps that's just me. Also, some of the "old-timers" on Socgrad no doubt recall a rather heated debate about whether faculty should be subscribers to Socgrad. The last thing I want to do is revive that mess, but just to let you know how it turned out, I think we decided that while Socgrad is set up by and for graduate students, no one's going to chase faculty away, or anyone else who wants to be on for that matter. In any case, as far as I can tell, there aren't very many non-student subscribers. Hope that answers any bureaucratic questions. Let me know if there are others. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 4 20:33:17 1994 Tue, 4 Oct 1994 20:30:23 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 20:30:18 -0700 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: administrative stuff From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Tue Oct 4 18:32:40 1994 --------cut------hack------edit------------ Also, in response to Kit's comments: I think on occasion a few people have suggested making Socgrad a newsgroup, but it's never been seriously talked about. I think myself would oppose the idea, mainly because I can't stand using Usenet, and consequently never do. I find it's a whole lot more efficient to just delete email I don't want to read then to deal with the slowness and cumbersomeness of Usenet. But perhaps that's just me. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu ====================== I have to say that a listserver has a personal touch that usenet does not have. This has been the most polite yet straight shooting group I have run across on listserv or usenet. I still think there should be a sci.sociology but it doesn't have to have anything to do with this group per se. Best, eric From cassell@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 5 05:24:54 1994 Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:24:51 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: administrative stuff To: Laura Miller On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Laura Miller wrote: > Also, in response to Kit's comments: I think on occasion a few people > have suggested making Socgrad a newsgroup, but it's never been > seriously talked about. I think myself would oppose the idea, mainly > because I can't stand using Usenet, and consequently never do. I > find it's a whole lot more efficient to just delete email I don't want > to read then to deal with the slowness and cumbersomeness of Usenet. > But perhaps that's just me. I run several lists as part of my job here at IRSS. Three of those are also gatewayed to netnews in the bit.listserv.* hierarchy. American University acts as the gateway. This way, _both_ the listserv list and the newsgroup are available. We've had a couple of spams come over from the netnews side, but it really hasn't been too bad. I can send you more information if you're interested. Personally, I don't care one way or the other. I prefer to get stuff from "high volume" lists via netnews, but socgrad come no where near my own personal "cutpoint." Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 5 05:55:10 1994 Wed, 5 Oct 1994 05:53:32 -0700 for Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 06:53:31 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: administrative stuff To: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu I wouldn't sign on to a Usenet either, haven't yet. What I like about socgrad and some of the other lists I've joined is, similarly to Eric, the "from the hip" talk. If it gets to hot for some people, they can not sign on anymore, but I think all-in-all, this has been a lot of fun, and I wouldn't want to suppress anybody's comm(unication). D(elete) works just fine. If anything, I'd like to see people feel freer to shoot from the hip rather than dressing it up in journalese. Even though I got a couple of pot shots taken at me this last summer (O J trial cum domestic violence), it was worth it to see all the different viewpoints. I wouldn't want to start censoring what appears on the net, even if we dress it up and call it "appropriateness". On Tue, 4 Oct 1994 estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu wrote: > From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Tue Oct 4 18:32:40 1994 > > --------cut------hack------edit------------ > Also, in response to Kit's comments: I think on occasion a few people > have suggested making Socgrad a newsgroup, but it's never been > seriously talked about. I think myself would oppose the idea, mainly > because I can't stand using Usenet, and consequently never do. I > find it's a whole lot more efficient to just delete email I don't want > to read then to deal with the slowness and cumbersomeness of Usenet. > But perhaps that's just me. > Laura Miller > lmiller@ucsd.edu > > ====================== > > I have to say that a listserver has a personal touch > that usenet does not have. > > This has been the most polite yet straight > shooting group I have run across on listserv > or usenet. > > I still think there should be a sci.sociology > but it doesn't have to have anything to do with > this group per se. > > Best, > eric > > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 5 06:23:01 1994 Wed, 5 Oct 1994 06:22:02 -0700 for Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:17 EDT From: SCOTT BLAKE Subject: Re: administrative stuff To: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu I'm not so sure about sci.sociology. Perhaps alt.sociology would be more appropriate given the difficulties in adapting positivistic methods to our field. We wouldn't want to inflate our image of ourselves. =:) Scott QOTD: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 5 06:39:32 1994 Wed, 5 Oct 1994 06:38:27 -0700 for Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:35:59 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: administrative stuff To: SCOTT BLAKE On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, SCOTT BLAKE wrote: > I'm not so sure about sci.sociology. Perhaps alt.sociology would be more > appropriate given the difficulties in adapting positivistic methods to > our field. We wouldn't want to inflate our image of ourselves. =:) > > Scott > > QOTD: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein > Actually, there IS a alt.sci.sociology group. There's been some discussion of going through the process to create a sci.sociology group, but there's not been what you'd call a ground swell. (See news.newusers for the perioic "how to start a newsgroup" posting.) Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 5 08:59:24 1994 Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:54:46 -0700 for Date: Wed, 05 Oct 94 11:53 EDT From: "Pamela Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: discussion of sociological forum? lost in the middle of the Young discussion, D. Clayton Smith asked: ---------------------- Sooo....Anybody read the special issue of Sociological Forum on "What is Wrong with Sociology"? I think Molotch's piece is a beauty. The last article in the issue is also good. I'm still reading the issue, anybody else got a favorite? Any dialog? Steppin' off my high horse, D. Clayton Smith ---------------------- some of you may recall that in the past we have tried to start discussions on various topics. I would say that overall they were relatively unsucessful. I'm willing to try again, however, and I think this is a great topic. What IS wrong with Sociology? Would anyone else be interested in starting a discussion of all or some of the articles in this special issue in say -- two weeks? that would give us all time to read the issue and then we could begin to discuss a topic that should be near and dear to our hearts. Anyone game? Pam Paxton From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 5 11:41:39 1994 Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:34:33 -0700 for Date: Wed, 05 Oct 94 14:20:11 EDT From: LISA EARGLE Subject: WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOCIOLOGY To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU PAM (and all others): I'd be willing to participate in the discussion. I haven't read the Motoloch article or the special issue of Sociological Forum yet... having the discussion 2 weeks from today sounds fine. - Lisa Eargle From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 5 16:09:05 1994 Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:00:43 -0700 for Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 17:00:31 -0600 (MDT) From: "Dale A. Albers" Subject: Re: WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOCIOLOGY To: LISA EARGLE On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, LISA EARGLE wrote: > PAM (and all others): > > I'd be willing to participate in the discussion. I haven't read the > Motoloch article or the special issue of Sociological Forum yet... > having the discussion 2 weeks from today sounds fine. Hi: I plan to get my hands on the special issue, but would appreciate a citation for the Motoloch article, can you help with this? Man, many thanks. Dale Albers From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 6 07:56:23 1994 Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:50:48 -0700 for Date: Thu, 06 Oct 94 10:46:21 EDT From: LISA EARGLE Subject: CITATION To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU DALE - SOMEONE ELSE ON THE LIST BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT. I DON'T KNOW WHICH ISSUE OF SOCIOLOGICAL FORUM DISCUSSES "WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOCIOLOGY." I THOUGHT I'D GO DIGGING IN THE LIBRARY TODAY TO FIND IT. IF WE (UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA) HAVE IT, I'LL PASS THE INFO ALONG. --- LISA From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 6 10:17:11 1994 Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:01:47 -0700 for Thu, 6 Oct 94 13:01:45 +1100 From: "MORTON ENDER" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU, LISA EARGLE Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:01:21 EDT Subject: Re: CITATION Date sent: Thu, 06 Oct 94 10:46:21 EDT From: LISA EARGLE Subject: CITATION To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU DALE - SOMEONE ELSE ON THE LIST BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT. I DON'T KNOW WHICH ISSUE OF SOCIOLOGICAL FORUM DISCUSSES "WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOCIOLOGY." I THOUGHT I'D GO DIGGING IN THE LIBRARY TODAY TO FIND IT. IF WE (UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA) HAVE IT, I'LL PASS THE INFO ALONG. --- LISA _soc forum_, september 1994, 9(3) From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 6 10:32:47 1994 Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:26:35 -0700 for Thu, 6 Oct 94 13:26:32 +1100 From: "MORTON ENDER" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:26:06 EDT Subject: citiation ooops! rather it is _soc forum_, 9(2), june 1994 morten From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 6 11:08:33 1994 Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:00:39 -0700 for Date: Thu, 06 Oct 94 14:00:28 EDT From: LISA EARGLE Subject: CITATION FROM MORTON To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU THANKS FOR THE CITATION! From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 6 11:09:15 1994 Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:02:54 -0700 for Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 14:02:49 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: IREX Grant Opportunities for US Scholars and Institutions (fwd) To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Thought someone out there might be interested in applying for some of these. Note that the deadline is Nov. 1. Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:52:58 -0400 From: irex Subject: IREX Grant Opportunities for US Scholars and Institutions *** IREX ANNOUNCES 1995-1996 ACADEMIC PROGRAMS *** American scholars in the humanities and social sciences are encouraged to apply for the programs described below; eligibility requirements vary by program. Please contact IREX for further information on these and other programs. International Research & Exchanges Board 1616 H Street, NW Washington, DC 20006 Tel: (202) 628-8188 Fax: (202) 628-8189 E-mail: irex%irexmain@irex.org gopher: info.irex.org, port 70 Individual Advanced Research Opportunities Application deadline: November 1, 1994 Research placement and access for predoctoral and postdoctoral scholars at institutions in the host country for a period of 2-12 months. Regions: Baltic States, Central & Eastern Europe, Mongolia, Newly Independent States. Research Residencies Application deadline: November 1, 1994 Research Residents spend 9-12 months in the host region/country pursuing individual research and improving language skills. IREX requires Research Residents to submit quarterly reports on developments in the local academic and policy communities. Regions: Albania, Baltic States, Croatia, Macedonia, Newly Independent States, Slovenia, Slovakia. Bulgarian Studies Seminar Application deadline: November 1, 1994 One-month fellowships for American scholars wishing to improve their knowledge of the Bulgarian language and culture. The seminar, held in Sofia during the month of July, consists of lectures on Bulgarian language, history, culture, and literature. Topics vary each year to complement the needs and interests of each group of scholars. Region: Bulgaria. Special Projects in Library and Information Science Application deadline: January 15, 1995 Opportunities for support of librarians, archivists, and information specialists pursuing projects relating to Central and Eastern Europe and Eurasia. Regions: Baltic States, Central & Eastern Europe, Newly Independent States. Special Projects Application deadline: March 1, 1995 Financial support for collaborative projects in the study of Central and Eastern Europe and Eurasia. Proposals from all disciplines in the humanities and social sciences are welcome. All projects must involve American and non-American participants from one or more of the eligible countries. Regions: Baltic States, Central & Eastern Europe, Newly Independent States. Short-Term Travel Grants Application deadlines: October 1, 1994; February 1, 1995; and June 1, 1995 IREX offers travel grants for scholarly projects focusing on Central and Eastern Europe, Eurasia, and Mongolia. Support is available for brief visits (1-2 weeks) for individuals who do not require administrative assistance from IREX. Regions: Baltic States, Central & Eastern Europe, Mongolia, Newly Independent States. US Host Universities for Graduate Students from Eurasia and the Baltics [Edmund S. Muskie and Freedom Support Act Fellows] Application Deadline: January 27, 1995 These Fellowships are funded through the US Information Agency and administered by IREX and three other organizations to bring graduate students from the countries of Eurasia and the Baltics for one- and two-year, degree and non-degree programs in professional fields. IREX accepts proposals from US universities with masters-level programs in economics, journalism/mass communications, and library and information science to serve as host universities for approximately 90 fellows. US Host Institutions for Teaching Assistants from Russia (Russian Teaching Assistants Program-RTAP) Application deadline: October 7, 1994 RTAP, a new program funded by the Fulbright Teacher Exchange Branch of the US Information Agency, matches Russian Teaching Assistants with US two- and four- year academic institutions. US host institutions may apply to receive teaching assistants for either a six- or eight- month program. Russian participants are recent graduates of pedagogical institutes and primarily specialists in the field of English. The TAs may also serve as resource persons in departments of Russian language and culture, either as occasional lecturers in courses related to Russian language, society, and culture. In addition to serving as a TA, the Russian participants will enroll in two to three courses per semester to broaden their understanding of their fields of specialization and/or American culture and society. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 6 13:00:17 1994 Thu, 6 Oct 1994 12:49:19 -0700 for From: "Sarah " Organization: Maxwell School, Syracuse University To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:49:04 EST Subject: Weber Help!!!! We need to know information on Weber's "Ancient Judaism". We need information on the chapter called "Ethics and Theodicy of the Prophets" ASAP. Please send any information to spitcher@maxwell.syr.edu Thanks! Social Theory 611 Class From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 7 06:44:40 1994 Fri, 7 Oct 1994 06:37:59 -0700 for Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:33 EDT From: SCOTT BLAKE Subject: Wiretap Bill News. Urgent! (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: IN%"cactus@bibliob.slip.netcom.com" "L. Todd Masco" 7-OCT-1994 03:15:07.02 To: IN%"elbows@mc.lcs.mit.edu" CC: Subj: Important: Wiretap bill Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 02:59:09 -0400 From: "L. Todd Masco" Subject: Important: Wiretap bill To: elbows@mc.lcs.mit.edu Path: bb.com!news-mail-gateway!panix.com!shabbir From: shabbir@panix.com ("Shabbir J. Safdar") Newsgroups: hks.lists.vtw Subject: This is it; we must succeed today or we've lost. Date: 7 Oct 1994 01:36:58 -0400 Lines: 421 NNTP-Posting-Host: bb.com [THIS IS IT. FORWARD THIS EVERYWHERE. IF WE LOSE TODAY ITS OVER.] The Wiretap Watch Issue 1.05 October 6, 1994 Distribute Widely (until 11/1/94) Recent Quote: "Hey, when I mention that I'm collecting vote information it seems to scare the pants off of them. They listen & promise to call me back!" -Another enthusiastic VTW list member describing a call to a legislator The Wiretap Watch will be posted on a frequent basis until the FBI's Wiretap bills pass or fail this session. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contents What's New What you should do right now Positions of legislators pro/con/wavering Status of the bills Brief explanation of the bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT'S NEW WITH THE FBI'S WIRETAP BILL (SB 2375) (brief version) 10/6/94 This is IT. You must call today. If the Senate cannot pass the bill before it adjourns today it will be a significantly embarassing setback. You cannot wait until Monday. By Monday it will be too late. Feel free to use the toll-free number (1-800-768-2221) the Religious Right has set up to allow their constituents to contact their legislators more easily. Call Senators Wallop, Warner, and your own and tell them to vote NO on SB 2375. Mail vtw@vtw.org for more information. -Forward this letter to ten friends. -Sen. Malcolm Wallop (R-WY) has placed a hold on the bill. It is crucial to support his position so that he can continue to oppose the bill. Call him with the sample communique below. -Sen. John W. Warner (R-VA) is also giving the bill second thoughts. Call him and express your concern as well. -Calls are *still* pouring into Sen. Boxer's & Feinstein's offices. -Senators Feinstein's (CA) office is still doing spin control. They've crafted a more carefully thought out statement about her position that indicates she's "re-examining her position." Is this smoke? Call her anyway and explain how disturbed you are by her committee vote in favor of the bill. Urge her to oppose the bill. -The email is STILL pouring in. We love it! If our mailbox filled up because everyone called their legislator and wanted to tell us about it, our Internet provider would be sad but we'd be thrilled! Current Wiretap Supporters (based on comm. vote or statement) Senators: Heflin (AL), DeConcini (AZ), Feinstein (CA), Brown (CO), Biden (DE), Grassley (IA), Moseley-Braun (IL), Simon (IL), Kennedy (MA), Cohen (ME), Metzenbaum (OH), Specter (PA), Thurmond (SC), Pressler (SD), Hatch (UT), Leahy (VT), Kohl (WI), Simpson (WY) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT YOU SHOULD DO RIGHT NOW In some ways, even we are amazed. This bill has been in the works for months and yet here we are, in the last days before the break and its sponsors are still trying to navigate its passage. Even though there will be a lame duck session after the elections, its costing a significant amount of time and effort to fight all of the opposition being brought by voters. Your Senator needs pressure from *you*. They cannot oppose this alone; they need to be able to state that they are doing it because "their constituents asked them to." There are four things you can do to help stop the bill: 1. Forward this to ten people you know. It has an expiration date so don't worry about it becoming an urban legend like the "modem tax." 2. Call Sen. Malcom Wallop (R-WY) and ask him to maintain a hold on the bill. He is holding it back, but cannot do it forever. The more support he receives, the stronger a position he is in to maintain his hold. His office needs to hear from people to bolster his position. Call everyone you know and dictate these things if you have to. -Pick up the phone. -Call 1-800-768-2221, ask for Sen. Wallop's office. (or call 1-202-224-6441 or fax 1-202-224-3230) -Feel free to say the following: SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE (FAX OR PHONE) Dear Senator Wallop: I wish to thank you for your opposition to Digital Wiretap, S.2375. This legislation is being rushed through Congress without the study it deserves. Its impact on industry, privacy, and its ultimate financial costs, as well as the extent of the need by law enforcement, are all largely unknown. In the absence of such information, I ask that you please continue delaying passage of this bill. Sincerely, _____________________ 3. Call Sen. John W. Warner (R-VA) and ask him to oppose unanimous consent on S. 2375, and the bill itself. He needs to know that there has not been significant public debate on the bill. -Pick up the phone. -Call 1-800-768-2221, ask for Sen. Warner's office. (or call 1-202-224-2023 or fax 1-202-224-6295) -Feel free to say the following: SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE (FAX OR PHONE) Dear Senator Warner: I encourage you to place a hold on Digital Wiretap, S.2375, or maintain it if you already have one. This legislation is being rushed through Congress without the study it deserves. Its implications for privacy, its impact on industry, and its ultimate financial costs, as well as the extent of the need by law enforcement, are all largely unknown. In the absence of such information, I recommend delaying passage of this bill. Sincerely, _____________________ 4. Call your own Senators and explain to them that you are opposed the bill. You must do this today. Tomorrow is too late. -Pick up the phone. -Call 1-800-768-2221, ask for your Senator by name. -Feel free to say the following: SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE (FAX OR PHONE) The FBI is trying to push through its wiretap bill (SB 2375) without due deliberation. The bill is too costly; even Dir. Freeh agrees it will take more than the $500 million written into the bill. It will impose a significant burden on small local carriers and the telecommunications industry (both manufacturers and service providers). Finally, the FBI has been elusive with its facts and the public. A complete lack of public debate and little justification for the public given by Dir. Freeh makes this bill extremely premature. Please vote NO (and place a hold) on SB 2375. Thank you, ___________________ Find out what the Senator's position is; call them DAILY. They'll have to vote on it soon, so don't let them tell you they haven't made up their mind yet. Mail the answer to vtw@vtw.org. Step 5. Feel good about yourself. You've just joined hundreds (if not thousands) of people who have participated in their democracy in the last week on this issue. And all without leaving your home/office/car. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- STATUS STATUS SB 2375 Currently being stalled by other business (Haiti, campaign reform, lobbying) and individual Senators who are placing "holds" on the bill. If it could be stopped before the Senate adjourns Friday, that will be a significant victory. STATUS HR 4922 It passed on the evening of Oct. 5 on a voice vote. Oct 7, 94 The Senate plans to adjourn to go home and campaign. Oct 6, 94 Nothing happened, though a Senate vote was expected. Several Senators have placed holds on the bill. Oct 5, 94 House passes HR 4922 on a voice vote. Oct 4, 94 House is scheduled to vote on HR 4922, along with more than 50 other items on the "suspension calendar". The debate took place tonight; the House vote was put off until Oct 5, '94. Oct 3, 94 Judge Richey instructs the FBI to comply with a FOIA request to make available their wiretap surveys (which they claim justify their bill) by Nov. 1. Sep 29, 94 HR 4922 marked up and reported out of the Hse. Jud. Comm and nearly to the full House Sep 28, 94 SB 2375 amended, marked up, and reported out of the Sen. Jud. Comm. to the full Senate Sep 15, 94 HR 4922 hearing held in the Telecommunications Comm. Aug 18, 94 HR 4922 reported back to committee (write to Rep. Jack Brooks!) Aug 11, 94 Sen. Leahy & Rep. Edwards hold a joint hearing on the bills in Wash. DC at 1pm in Rayburn 2237. Aug 10, 94 HR 4922 referred to Subcomm. on Civil and Constitutional Rights Aug 10, 94 SB 2375 referred to Subcomm. on Technology and the Law Aug 9, 94 Rep. Hyde officially cosponsors HR 4922 Aug 9, 94 HR 4922 referred to House Judiciary Committee Aug 9, 94 SB 2375 referred to Senate Judiciary Committee Aug 9, 94 Identical House and Senate bills are announced by their respective sponsors, Rep. Don Edwards (D-CA) and Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) EFF states the legislation is "not necessary" and predicts it will pass regardless. For more information about the Digital Telephony bills, check the Voters Telecomm Watch gopher site (gopher.panix.com) or contact Steven Cherry, VTW Press Contact at (718) 596-2851 or stc@vtw.org. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- POSITIONS OF LEGISLATORS [Note this only reflects the feedback we have received. Many people don't tell us they've called their legislator. -Shabbir] Senators: p st name phone fax = == ======================== ============== ============== R AK Murkowski, Frank H. 1-202-224-6665 1-202-224-5301 Undecided; we have notification of significant callers R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 *D AL Heflin, Howell T. 1-202-224-4124 1-202-224-3149 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D AL Shelby, Richard C. 1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416 D AR Bumpers, Dale 1-202-224-4843 1-202-224-6435 D AR Pryor, David 1-202-224-2353 na *D AZ DeConcini, Dennis 1-202-224-4521 1-202-224-2302 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 na D CA Boxer, Barbara 1-202-224-3553 1-415-956-6701 Undecided; we have notification of significant callers *D CA Feinstein, Diane 1-202-224-3841 1-202-228-3954 Has stated that she will be voting for the bill (bad) Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D CO Campbell, Ben N. 1-202-225-4761 1-202-225-0228 *R CO Brown, Henry 1-202-224-5941 na Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) A previous report of Brown opposing the bill turns out to be inaccurate. D CT Dodd, Christopher J. 1-202-224-2823 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. D CT Lieberman, Joseph I. 1-202-224-4041 1-202-224-9750 *D DE Biden Jr., Joseph R. 1-202-224-5042 na Biden is a co-sponsor of the bill. Call him and tell him how unhappy you are about his position. Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) R DE Roth Jr., William V. 1-202-224-2441 1-202-224-2805 D FL Graham, Robert 1-202-224-3041 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. R FL Mack, Connie 1-202-224-5274 1-202-224-8022 Undecided; receiving calls from constituents D GA Nunn, Samuel 1-202-224-3521 1-202-224-0072 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. R GA Coverdell, Paul 1-202-224-3643 na D HI Akaka, Daniel K. 1-202-224-6361 1-202-224-2126 D HI Inouye, Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 D IA Harkin, Thomas 1-202-224-3254 1-202-224-7431 *R IA Grassley, Charles E. 1-202-224-3744 na Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) R ID Craig, Larry E. 1-202-224-2752 1-202-224-2573 R ID Kempthorne, Dirk 1-202-224-6142 1-202-224-5893 *D IL Moseley-Braun, Carol 1-202-224-2854 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) *D IL Simon, Paul 1-202-224-2152 1-202-224-0868 Has decided to vote support the bill (bad) Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) R IN Coats, Daniel R. 1-202-224-5623 1-202-224-8964 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. R IN Lugar, Richard G. 1-202-224-4814 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. R KS Dole, Robert 1-202-224-6521 1-202-224-8952 R KS Kassebaum, Nancy L. 1-202-224-4774 1-202-224-3514 D KY Ford, Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 na R KY McConnell, Mitch 1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499 D LA Breaux, John B. 1-202-224-4623 na D LA Johnston, J. Bennett 1-202-224-5824 1-202-224-6717 *D MA Kennedy, Edward M. 1-202-224-4543 1-202-224-2417 Has stated that he is supporting the bill (bad) Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D MA Kerry, John F. 1-202-224-2742 1-202-224-8525 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. D MD Mikulski, Barbara A. 1-202-224-4654 1-202-224-8858 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. D MD Sarbanes, Paul S. 1-202-224-4524 1-202-224-1651 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. D ME Mitchell, George J. 1-202-224-5344 na *R ME Cohen, William S. 1-202-224-2523 1-202-224-2693 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D MI Levin, Carl 1-202-224-6221 na D MI Riegle Jr., Donald 1-202-224-4822 1-202-224-8834 D MN Wellstone, Paul 1-202-224-5641 1-202-224-8438 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents. R MN Durenberger, David 1-202-224-3244 na A staffer said that Sen. Durenberger is "leaning in support for the bill". Don't let that happen, call today. R MO Bond, Christopher S. 1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149 R MO Danforth, John C. 1-202-224-6154 na R MS Cochran, Thad 1-202-224-5054 na R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 D MT Baucus, Max 1-202-224-2651 na R MT Burns, Conrad R. 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594 R NC Faircloth, D. M. 1-202-224-3154 1-202-224-7406 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R NC Helms, Jesse 1-202-224-6342 1-202-224-7588 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents D ND Conrad, Kent 1-202-224-2043 na D ND Dorgan, Byron L. 1-202-225-2611 1-202-225-9436 D NE Exon, J. J. 1-202-224-4224 na D NE Kerrey, Joseph R. 1-202-224-6551 1-202-224-7645 R NH Gregg, Judd 1-202-224-3324 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R NH Smith, Robert 1-202-224-2841 1-202-224-1353 D NJ Bradley, William 1-202-224-3224 1-202-224-8567 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents D NJ Lautenberg, Frank R. 1-202-224-4744 1-202-224-9707 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents D NM Bingaman, Jeff 1-202-224-5521 na R NM Domenici, Pete V. 1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371 D NV Bryan, Richard H. 1-202-224-6244 na D NV Reid, Harry 1-202-224-3542 1-202-224-7327 D NY Moynihan, Daniel P. 1-202-224-4451 1-202-224-9293 Undecided; has been contacted at least twelve constituents R NY D'Amato, Alfonse M. 1-202-224-6542 1-202-224-5871 Undecided; has been contacted at least twelve constituents D OH Glenn, John 1-202-224-3353 na *D OH Metzenbaum, Howard 1-202-224-2315 1-202-224-6519 Has chosen to support the bill (bad) Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D OK Boren, David L. 1-202-224-4721 na R OK Nickles, Donald 1-202-224-5754 1-202-224-6008 R OR Hatfield, Mark O. 1-202-224-3753 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R OR Packwood, Robert 1-202-224-5244 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents D PA Wofford, Harris 1-202-224-6324 1-202-224-4161 *PA Specter, Arlen 1-202-224-4254 1-202-224-1893 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D RI Pell, Claiborne 1-202-224-4642 1-202-224-4680 R RI Chafee, John H. 1-202-224-2921 na D SC Hollings, Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents *R SC Thurmond, Strom 1-202-224-5972 1-202-224-1300 Supporting the FBI's Wiretap Bill. Make sure he knows how unhappy you are about his support for mandated wiretapping functionality. (bad) Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D SD Daschle, Thomas A. 1-202-224-2321 1-202-224-2047 *R SD Pressler, Larry 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1630 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D TN Mathews, Harlan 1-202-224-1036 1-202-228-3679 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents D TN Sasser, James 1-202-224-3344 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R TX Hutchison, Kay Bailey 1-202-224-5922 1-202-224-0776 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents Has stated that she is "taking opinions". Call her to sway that opinion. R TX Gramm, Phil 1-202-224-2934 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R UT Bennett, Robert 1-202-224-5444 1-801-524-5730 We can verify over one dozen contacts *R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) We can verify over one dozen contacts D VA Robb, Charles S. 1-202-224-4024 1-202-224-8689 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R VA Warner, John W. 1-202-224-2023 1-202-224-6295 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents *D VT Leahy, Patrick J. 1-202-224-4242 na Leahy is the sponsor of the bill (bad) Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) R VT Jeffords, James M. 1-202-224-5141 na D WA Murray, Patty 1-202-224-2621 1-202-224-0238 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents R WA Gorton, Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393 Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents D WI Feingold, Russell 1-202-224-5323 na Undecided; has been contacted by several constituents *D WI Kohl, Herbert H. 1-202-224-5653 na Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) D WV Byrd, Robert C. 1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025 D WV Rockefeller, John D. 1-202-224-6472 1-202-224-1689 *R WY Simpson, Alan K. 1-202-224-3424 1-202-224-1315 Voted in favor of the bill leaving the Judiciary committee. (bad) R WY Wallop, Malcolm 1-202-224-6441 1-202-224-3230 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BRIEF EXPLANATION OF THE BILLS The FBI's Wiretap bills (also known as the DT - Digital Telephony bills) mandate that *all* communications carriers must provide wiretap-ready equipment so that the FBI can more easily implement their court-ordered wiretaps. The costs of re-engineering all communications equipment will be borne by the government, industry and consumers. It does not cover information service providers. The bill is vague and the standards defining "wiretap ready" do not exist. Furthermore, the FBI has yet to make a case which demonstrates that they have been unable to implement a single wiretap. Although we as a society have accepted law enforcement's need to perform wiretaps, it is not reasonable to mandate this functionality as a part of the design. In itself, that would be an important debate. However without any proof that this is indeed a realistic and present problem, it is unacceptable and premature to pass this legislation today. The Voters Telecomm Watch (VTW) does not believe the FBI has made a compelling case to justify that all Americans give up their privacy. Furthermore, the VTW does not believe the case has been made to justify spending 500 million Federal dollars over the next several years to re-engineer equipment to compromise privacy, interfere with telecommunications privacy, and fulfill an unproven government need. There are some privacy protections built into the bill. Their benefit does not outweigh the damage that building wiretaps into all communication does, however. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 7 19:15:13 1994 Fri, 7 Oct 1994 19:11:02 -0700 for Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 22:11:00 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Faculty opening announcement (fwd) To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion FYI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 15:40:12 -0500 From: Mike Farrall Subject: Faculty opening announcement Please circulate this to interested colleagues: Applications invited for tenure track assistant professor, starting Fall 1995. Applicant must have PhD, an active scholarly agenda and evidence of teaching experience. We seek a person with expertise in family, and secondarily, some combination of interests in social organization (especially race/class/gender issues), aging, or science and technology. Applicant should be enthusiastic about working in a collegial, six-person department of teacher-scholars in an undergraduate liberal arts context. Creighton University is a private, Catholic, Jesuit institution that encourages applications from qualified individuals of all backgrounds who believe they can contribute to the distinctive educational traditions of the university. Because we are committed to increasing the diversity of our faculty, women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Send cover letter that describes your scholarly agenda, teaching philosophy, and evidence of teaching effectiveness, vita, college-level transcripts, and three references (but not letters at this time) to Charles Harper, Chair, Sociology and Anthropology Department, Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68178. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 7 20:00:44 1994 Fri, 7 Oct 1994 19:56:33 -0700 for From: halebsky@ssc.wisc.edu Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 21:23:09 -0500 To: "socgrad@ucsd.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: Molotch article I found the Molotch article very interesting and for the most part right on target. A couple of short remarks: Sociologists and their work are generally unknown; I suspect most people don't really know what sociologists do. The tendency of some sociologists to study the trivial and/or the obvious has definitely hurt the overall image of the field. I'm glad Molotch mentioned the overemphasis on names (i.e., "...Jones was wrong but Schwartz is right, rather than education counts more than father's income."). I've had the same feeling myself but didn't know if anybody shared it. I agree that there is an obsession with "citations and related sounds of science." Citations, footnotes/endnotes, and references have all proliferated beyond reason. Citations for well-known information seem especially unnecessary. I completely agree with Molotch about the poor state of sociological writing. I'm afraid many grad students cultivate a "hard to read" writing style because they think its the mark of seriousness. writing style because they think it's the mark of seriousness. As for "staying inside" the cocoon of the academic world, this is really a big problem and not one that individual sociologists can solve. It's part of the larger tendency of the academic world to undervalue involvement by teachers in the real world. Steve Halebsky UW-Madison From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 8 11:58:18 1994 Sat, 8 Oct 1994 11:55:04 -0700 for Date: Sat, 08 Oct 1994 11:49:39 -0800 (PST) From: PORNADA Subject: RE:E-mail address To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Sorry to clutter up the Socgrad screens with this but, what is Morten Ender's E-mail address? gw From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 8 16:59:35 1994 Sat, 8 Oct 1994 16:56:05 -0700 for Date: Sat, 8 Oct 94 19:56:03 EDT From: David Gibson To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Molotch Steve, The Molotch article impressed me as well. But I have two comments. Looking over the article again, I don't see that Molotch exactly accuses sociologists of studying the trivial -- only (!) of being so insulated within their academic cocoons that they sometimes know a great deal less about a setting than those who actively participate in it. The result is that they expend their energies on making up the deficit when the best thing would be to learn from first-hand experience (more on this momentarily). I find this a bit troublesome, however, since I think that our research often *ought* to be targeting conventional wisdom -- as did Molotch in discovering 25 years ago that neighborhood racial segregation has nothing to do with white flight, contrary to the "popular view" (p. 227) -- lest our theories be constructed on foundations which prove in the end to be empirically erroneous. (Remember that even now it is commonly believed that one can catch a cold by being exposed to the elements, despite scientific evidence to the contrary. What if one were to build a theory on a sociological analogue?) Second, I am unconvinced by Molotch's advocacy of the acquisition of a "rich biography" as a precondition (or even facilitating condition) of being a good sociologist. While the "thickness of one's own biography" (p. 231) may affect how interesting one is at parties, I think that it has little to do with one's professional promise. I have a friend in Amsterdam who without question brags a rich biography; as an exchange student last spring, I spent hours listening to her stories. But she can't bring herself to formulate any generalizations, because, as she says, for any one of these she can think of too many exceptions in her own experience. (As an aside, note that a given empirical generalization may be "true" statistically without being evident to the casual observer, no matter how worldly and well-traveled, since our senses don't allow us to distinguish the effects of multiple interrelated independent variables.) A former faculty member here (just left) recently had an article published in a prestigious journal (I forget which -- I have a draft copy) arguing that a good scientist ultimately needs to deny most of his or her experiences in the end anyhow (the title: "Denying the Data"), so why overburden oneself with unscientific experiences from the start? Oh, but this piece of advice I did like: "moving forward as *though* we were self-confident would move us closer to the kind of assertive stance that would make us more effective." David Gibson  From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 8 18:47:18 1994 Sat, 8 Oct 1994 18:43:22 -0700 for From: "John Brady Thomas" Organization: Maxwell School, Syracuse University To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 21:43:22 EST Subject: Talcott Parsons I am trying to understand some of the work of Talcott Parsons, and would like to embed it in the larger context of his "general" sociology. Can anyone briefly summarize for me what his "overarching intellectual project" was? I would be most grateful. John. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 8 18:54:02 1994 Sat, 8 Oct 1994 18:51:32 -0700 for Date: Sat, 08 Oct 94 21:47:24 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: sociology and personal experience To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Date: Sat, 08 Oct 94 21:17:14 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: Re: Molotch To: David Gibson ======================================================================== Thanks to David for the interesting post, but, without having read the article which catalyzed the discussion, I'm still in disagreement with a lot of the David's observations. I very much disagree that depth and breadth of experience is either neutral or counterproductive to "doing sociology" (or science, art, or philosophy of any kind). The pitfalls of casual observation, and the inevitable misconceptions and biases we all carry within us as a result, is partially mitigated by diversity of experience. One develops a better sense of what constitutes the particular, and what constitutes the general, for instance (or, more precisely, the dispersion of aspects of events along a continuum from particularity to generality). And, as a person also with a "rich biography", I can attest that it does not inevitably lead to an atheoretical relativism, as it did with your Dutch friend. I consider the relativistic aspect of the world to be amenable to abstract generalizations of a subtler sort than "in all times and places, event A happens thusly...." And, though neither our specific nor general assertions are ever "absolutely true", they are useful abstractions, either for their mathematical precision or their poetic evocativeness. So, five years of overseas travel, stints on communes and kibbutzim, an army tour of duty, work in child care and nursing home care and sales, factory work and field (agricultural) work, have not deprived me of my willingness to theorize. "If something is true statistically" it may indeed escape casual observation, but the more one casually observes, the more likely that it _will not_ escape casual observation (this is the nature of statistical likelihoods). So, since we all have casually formed frameworks _within which_ and _from which_ we launch ourselves into scientific endeavors (and rightly try, with imperfect success, to suspend our casually formed framework in the process), isn't it better to have a casually formed framework that is based on a broader spectrum of observations? That is, after all, the jist of statistical controls: To discern that which would be discernable given enough observations (but through the use of controls that reduce the number of actual observations required to achieve a certain degree of confidence). I'm not saying that counterproductive biases don't creep into perspectives born of rich biographies; just that, all else being held equal, a rich biography is more informative than a narrower one. It better enables one to hold more perspectives simultaneously, which is one vital element of an active sociological imagination. Steve Harvey harvey@uconnvm ======================================================================== 6 LINE 1 %DATE LINE 2 %FROMEND %FROM LINE 3 %SUBJ LINE 4 %IDEND %IDSTART LINE 6 %DIV LINE 46 V920104 %RESUME Re: Molotch 6 24 7 1 0 0 0 46 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 8 19:01:16 1994 Sat, 8 Oct 1994 18:58:36 -0700 for Date: Sat, 08 Oct 94 21:47:58 EDT From: Alan Subject: Parsons To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Being perhaps more sympathetic to Parsons than most, I'll throw my hat in the ring. The general agenda of Parsons was to develop a theory of society which would avoid both classical behaviorist conceptions of a social actor, and evolutionary notions of the inevitable progress of societies. The former he borrowed from Mead and Freud, and the latter he borrowed from Durkheim, Weber, and Pareto. To a certain extent, the consensus is he failed in this attempt b/c he ignored any notion of a rational human agent, and began inching toward evolutionary theory in his later works. Much of the friction that currently exists concerning rational choice theory among non-Marxists takes Parsons as a point of departure. Probably the most sympathetic secondary source on Parsons and his work is Peter Hamilton's book entitled "Talcott Parsons" in the key sociologists series. Some of Bryan Turner's work is also good. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 8 19:11:33 1994 Sat, 8 Oct 1994 19:08:45 -0700 for Date: Sat, 08 Oct 94 22:00:02 EDT From: DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Are there any socgradders going to the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion meetings in Albuquerque, New Mexico next month? Just curious. As for the role of personal experience, I won't go in-depth until I read Molotch's article, BUT social science not informed by biography is not possible, at the very least b/c readers do assume a particular relationship between writer and text, even in the most statistical sources. On another list (SSSRel-l) there is currently a discussion over the extent to which it is possible to tell the religious affiliation of the author in journal articles in the Sociology of Religion. Whether it actually is or not isn't as important as the fact that readers think it is, and may judge one's work accordingly. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 03:48:35 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 03:47:34 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 03:46:14 +0000 To: Alan Subject: Re: Parsons On Oct 8, 9:47pm, Alan wrote: > The general agenda of Parsons was to develop a theory of society which > would avoid both classical behaviorist conceptions of a social actor, and > evolutionary notions of the inevitable progress of societies. The former > he borrowed from Mead and Freud, and the latter he borrowed from Durkheim, > Weber, and Pareto. To a certain extent, the consensus is he failed in this > attempt b/c he ignored any notion of a rational human agent, and began > inching toward evolutionary theory in his later works. For me anyway, the name Parsons is synonomous with "functionalism" (or "structural-functionalism", his term). Parsons had an organicist model of society, where every institution and every person has their place in the overall social division of labor. Shared norms and values characterise society and help explain why we have social order and cooperation as opposed to a Hobbesian state of war of all against all. Although I'm not fan of Parsons and I have yet to learn anything useful (to my work) that's come out of his work, I think the question of Parsons' fall from grace is more of a sociology of knowledge (or sociology of sociology) question, than a question of the (many) weaknesses of his work. My understanding is that the 60's generation of sociologists despised Parsons and his work because of (a) his virulent anti-Marx anti-Communist cold war liberal politics as expressed in his actions, (b) the conservative implications of his theories which apologized for social inequality as necessary and (more or less) implictily favored social equilibrium and therefore the status quo. While many sociologists of Parsons' vintage disdained his use of functional explanation and criticized his "oversocialized" conception of social actors (tey felt tat hhhhis framework [sorry, my keyboard is not working too well] left little room for individual volition), Parsons lost his hegemony over sociological theory less by losing credibility among his fans, and more by his supporters being replaced by this new generation. Alan is probably rigt about Parsons' later evolutionary bent hurting him, I disagree about te "rational human agent". If he means tat sociologists eventually dismissed Parsons' work because it didn't include rational actors a la rational choice teory, tat's clearly wrong -- rational choice as never had tat big a following among sociologists. On the oter and, Alan probably means this criticism that Parsons' individuals are "oversocialized". Parsons certainly did not ignore human agency; the agency vs. structure (ick) dialectic was a primary concern for him. > Much of the friction that currently exists concerning rational choice theory > among non-Marxists takes Parsons as a point of departure. You're saying that non-Marxists (what's different about te Marxists on this point?) use Parsons against RCT? I tink that most treads of sociological theory are in oppostion to RCT and its individualism. Are you (Alan) suggesting that tere's a sgnificant debate going on today about RCT within sociology? In any case, let me close with my favorite Parsons quote. Thhhhis is from "The Distribution of Power in American Society", a review of Mills' THE POWER ELITE. Women qua women by and large do not have a position of power comparable to that of men; but this is not to say tat tey are unimportant -- otherwise ow can we account for the extent of our national preoccupations with questions of sexuality? (Parsons 1956; 133) By the way, Mills' discussion of Parsons (dissection of his prose, anyway) in THE SOCIOLOGICAL IMAGINATION is must reading. Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 07:02:35 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 07:01:20 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 09:58:03 EDT From: Alan Subject: Parsons To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU What you say is partly correct except for a couple of points. First, Parsons did lose the support of some of his flock of followers. You just need to look at Homan's criticisms of Parsons to see how someone who was if anything more politically Conservative took issue with Parsons. As Gouldner in the Coming Crisis in Western Sociology argues, there was always a tension between the liberal actor and normative constraint in Parson's "voluntarism" which Gouldner termed specious. In addition, the Merton-Lazarsfel d people at Columbia had problems with Parsons b/c of (what else) the problems of measuring his concepts, hence the disputes between grand theory and "mid-ran ge" theory. The fact that there were no new likely adherents among Marxists didn't help either, but again, this was epiphenomenal. By the late 1950's and early 1960's, Parsons was on his way out. Also, rational choice theorists are very critical of Parsons, and there are sociology departments (where for better or worse), rational choice theory is played around with to the same extent "post-modernism" was five years ago. A similar point vis-a-vis the actual influence of rational choice was discussed on another list a week or two ago, and the end result was the need to preserve a particular actor. In the end result, to someone who is critical at best about functionalism, exchange theory, role theory, rational choice, etc., the notion of human actors might be the same, the origin of norms constitutes a very real difference, though. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:08:35 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:07:45 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 10:51:34 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Electronic University and Grad Student Power To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY To All Grad Students in SocGrad: I have been asked to explain a bit about who and what I am doing on the Socgrad Network.I am pleased to do so. This comes in four parts: 1)About T.R. Young, 2) About the Red Feather Institute, 3) About the intrusion into the cyberspace of soc grad students and 4) some ideas for the future. T.R.Y. 1).About T.R.Young. T.R.Young is founder and director of the Red Feather Institute for Advanced Studies in Sociology. He took his M.A. from U-Michigan and the Ph.D. from U-Colorado. He has taught at several colleges and universities around the country. He is now on permanent sabbatical with the Red Feather Institute and visits other universities to lecture and to teach. Last year Young taught Soc/Law at UMich, Flint. The year before, he was Senior Distinguished Visiting Professor at Virginia Polytech where, with five grad students, he developed the Great Flying Chaos Learning Circus. The year prior to that he was Scholar in Residence at Texas Woman's University. Before that, Young was on the UPitt Semester at Sea with 350 students from around the nation. Next semester, Young will return to TWU to teach post- modern social psychology. Young has made several substantive contributions to American sociology in his research and writing; a series of articles on systems theory, a set of articles on conflict methodology; a set on macro-analytic approaches to Dramaturgy; a series on the political economy of crime. He is now working on postmodern phil/sci in Chaos Complexity theory and has 6 articles in journals on that topic. Young is now working on four connected books: The Drama of Social Life, The Drama of Social Enquiry, The Drama of Human Knowledge and the Drama of the Holy. All are explorations in postmodernity but Young makes the point that pre-modern, modern and postmodern knowledge processes are essential to the human project. Young's work is archived by the Progressive Scholars Network at the UColo and can be downloaded via gopher. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:09:26 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:08:52 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 10:29:38 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: over and under socialized concept of actors To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I think Michael is confusing the pejorative "rational choice theory" with the actual breadth of conceptualizations which the term sometimes incorporates. It refers first and foremost to microeconomic reasoning, which is synonymous with the "undersocialized" concept of the human actor. However, microeconomic reasoning can be employed anytime you have a concept of purposive actors, so any concept of the actor that falls on the continuum between "role-taking automoton" and "unsocialized rational calculator" that does not fall firmly on the "role-taking automoton" extreme can employ elements of rational choice theory. It is not a monolithic body of thought, but rather a conceptual methodology. Many of the popular critiques of RTC (and other theories about which the critics, naturally enough, have more limited knowledge than the adherents) do not recognize the many subtle ways in which elements of RTC are sometimes used. Nor do they recognize the fact that all sociologists who posit actors other than role-taking automotons (a thoroughly discredited conceptualization at this point) are implicitly, to some extent, rational choice theorists. All they're missing is access to the more precise tools that the formal body of RTC offers. For instance, there are large bodies of literature in RTC which *agree with* and build upon the following assertions: 1) humans are not rational actors, but rather use socially learned heuristics in coping with their lives, 2) humans do not always act in their own self-interest, but often have altruistic motives for their actions, 3) humans do not always act rationally, but often act in self-destructive or emotionally volatile ways. None of these statements deprive the tools of RCT of their analytic power, and, in fact, all are tractible through the use of those tools. The basic misunderstanding is that people confuse RCT the conceptual methodolo- gy with RCT the narrow conclusion about human motivations and behavior. I know of very few rational choice theorists (or economists, for that matter) who accept the latter, but many recognize that the value of the former is not, in fact, dependent on the validity of the latter. Such is the nature of abstraction. There need not be any real circles in the universe for the conceptual construct of the circle to be useful. Evolutionary biologists, for instance, use game theory, a form of RCT, when studying the evolution of organisms ranging from protozoa to banana slugs, organisms clearly not sitting around calculating their best strategies for survival. The reason why Alan rightly associated the current debate concerning under- and over-socialized concepts of actors with an implicit debate between parsons and RCT is because they represent the poles in the debate. The methods of RCT, while applicable to a partially socialized actor (e.g., both socialized and creative), represents in its pure form the undersocialized pole. Its methods are derived from the assumption of purposive action rather than programmed action. However, as exemplified above, even some forms of programmed action are amenable to an RCT analysis, if there is some process which periodically amends the programming in response to environmental feedback (e.g., evolution). Most surviving theories and methodologies in the social sciences have a greater degree of sophistication than is recognized in the patented critiques. In this, we are precisely like that which we study, repeating and preserving socially transmitted boundary-maintaining ideologies ("they're all wrong; we're all right") rather than recognizing the subtlety of the present best uses of present theories, and seeking to gain from them rather than discard them out of hand, to synthesize as well as sift, and to have a little bit of respect for the intelligence of those who utilize theories other than the ones we choose to utilize at any given moment. Steve Harvey harvey@uconnvm.uconn.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:21:47 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:20:37 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 11:11:30 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: T.R. Young? To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Okay, I don't know if my original assumptions about TR Young were correct or not, but the present mode of presentation breeds some questions. I originally assumed that he/she/it was a grad student (apparently wrong) who had some fine ideas, and chose to legitimate those ideas with the trappings of an "institute" and "mini-lectures". I still have no idea who or what constitutes the "institute", and am still inclined to guess that it's an institute of one. My question now, relevent to the last post, is, who sent it? The header said that it came from TR Young, but the author referred to Young in the third person. If, in fact, it was Young, referring to himself in the third person, then that's the same kind of annoying nonsense that has caused me to discard his posts unread. But, perhaps this is all a misunderstanding. If it was someone other than Young, it would have helped if he/she/it had signed the post. -steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:21:47 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:20:44 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 11:09:43 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: About the Red Feather Institute To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Part II of a response to a request by Michael Lichter to let members of Socgrad know who and what is involved in the mini-lectures by T.R.Young 2). The RFI was born out of the social turmoil of the 1960s. It provides a place for those views and theories excluded from America sociology. The RFI supports feminist theory and methodology; cultural marxism, critical theory, marxist theory and alternative methodologies in the pursuit of valid social knowledge. It has four functions: a) to reflect upon and improve the emancipatory capacity of sociology in particular and social science in general. b) to sponsor conferences with which to give excluded voices a hearing. Bill Domhoff, Jim O'Connor, Barbara Ehrenreich, Elise Boulding, Stanley Aronowitz and many other speakers were brought into the Institute con- ferences to give grad students and younger sociologists views and theories not provided in their graduate work or in standard sociological journals. c) to provide alternative syllabi to grad students and young professors around the country. d) to publish the Transforming Sociology Series. Some 175 papers have been published in the Series. A Black Underclass Series was added two years ago. It is edited by Dr. Theodoric Manley at DePaul/Chicago. Some of the latest RFI publications can be downloaded via gopher from the RFI/T.R.Young archives at PSN/UCOLO. Most of the articles will be available within the year. T.R.Y. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:33:51 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:33:14 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 11:21:41 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: About the Mini-series To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Part III of an explanation about the mini-lectures offered by T.R.Young 3) When I recieved information from its managers about the Socgrad Network, it immediately occurred to me that there was great possibility for grad students to expand their academic resources and to consolidate a social base with which to advance their interests. Grad students in sociology have always been a natural audience for RFI/T.R.Young work since most older sociologists are so well socialized to a physical science/objective, value free model of science, they tend not to look at more politicized work. Then too, the RFI has always provided its services and papers free to Grad Students in Sociology. RFI organized and circulated the first Bill of Rights for grad students in sociology via the Midwest Society. Finally, the RFI donates to several funds for grad student travel to professional conferences. So, the socgrad network seemed a natural place with which to work with and for graduate students in American sociology. To that end, I offered a sampling of mini-lectures to give members of socgrad an idea of what they might want to think about doing in the future. As for other mini-lectures from me, that is entirely up to the members and managers of socgrad. I do have more which might be of interest to some or most members among which are several based on the new sciences of Chaos and Complexity....no use being involved in something called the Institute for ADVANCED studies in sociology unless one does something not well done in the discipline. At any rate, think about what you might want to do and, via Michael Lichter, let me know. In Part IV, the next and last part of this discursis, I will offer ideas and options which might be of interest. T.R.Y. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:42:33 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:41:43 -0700 for Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 09:41:39 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: your mail To: DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu Didn't even know there was such a thing...but if anyone's coming out here, I'll stop by just for a chance to meet some of you, since I live here anyway. When and where is it? On Sat, 8 Oct 1994 DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu wrote: > Are there any socgradders going to the Society for the Scientific Study of > Religion meetings in Albuquerque, New Mexico next month? Just curious. > > > As for the role of personal experience, I won't go in-depth until > I read Molotch's article, BUT social science not informed by biography > is not possible, at the very least b/c readers do assume a particular > relationship between writer and text, even in the most statistical sources. > On another list (SSSRel-l) there is currently a discussion over the extent to > which it is possible to tell the religious affiliation of the author in > journal articles in the Sociology of Religion. Whether it actually is or > not isn't as important as the fact that readers think it is, and may judge > one's work accordingly. > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:54:09 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:53:23 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 11:34:29 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Options for Electronic Studies in Sociology To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Part IV of an explanation re: Mini-Lectures by T.R.Young 4). About 75% of grad students in American sociology come from 30 socgrad departments. These departments have a large and varied faculty which serve well a variety of informational needs of grad students in sociology. Yet many of these as well as those in smaller, more monolithic department need outside sources for a multi-dimensional understanding of social processes and social structures. Members of Socgrad Network might want to regularize the informal [and unsolicitied] mini-lectures I have, to this date provided. Since the Socgrad Network is and should be a form of cyberspace controlled by and for grad students, here are some ideas: A. Invitations to others for mini-lectures. Each year, the Socgrad Network might invite three or four sociologists doing new and interesting work to by Honorary Lecturers on the socgrad network...some would decline but most would regard it a distinct honor and respond favorably. B. Each semester, members of Socgrad Network could set three or four topics in which there is wide disagreement and invite three or four persons to make statements and responses on a given date. C. Each semester, members of Socgrad Network could set topics and invite its own members to comment/cite new research which sheds light. This could help those grad students who are getting quite different positions from their own faculty. There are many other ways in which the network could use email as a supplement to the graduate program where ever they live and work. Now...some options about mini-lectures from T.R. Young: you could discuss and let me know about these and/or any thing else I might do to be of service to grad students in the USA and Canada...maybe Mexico and Puerto Rico. 1). No more lectures...thanks but no more. 2). One lecture a week...carry on as usual until further notice... 3). One lecture every other week...that fits our time better 4). Lecture only when requested; only on topics requested. 5). Other What ever you decide, do let me know and do know that I have enjoyed the time and the responses from those of you who took the time. Good luck in your studies, in your career and in your life. Keep in touch. T.R. Young From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 08:54:37 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 08:54:05 -0700 for Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 09:53:46 -0600 (MDT) From: "Dale A. Albers" Subject: Re: T.R. Young? To: Steve Harvey I am sorry to have to say this Mr. Harvey, but I think you protest to much. It's not clear to me what has you so riled up, but let me suggest that we get beyond this and just enjoy the postings from the RFI. D Albers From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 09:07:37 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 09:06:48 -0700 for Date: Sun, 9 Oct 94 12:06:46 EDT From: David Gibson To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: personal exp. & RCT Steve, I could not ardently defend the more extreme statements contained within my original post (regarding biography) without revealing myself to be less than ingenuous. All other things being equal, as you say, I suppose that *on average* a well-traveled individual has the edge over one who hasn't left campus since the age of 18, though the factor you mention in this respect (being able to distinguish the particular from the general, etc.) may not be the most important. But because I suspect that a lot rides on precisely what kind of work one aspires to do, I'm curious as to what kind of "theorizing" a rich biography inclines one to (because except for that stint in Amsterdam, I'm the one who hasn't left campus since age 18). And a word about the rational choice argument: The ideas of the two rational choice theorists upon whom I am most inclined to draw, Olson and Axelrod, don't presuppose that people can solve complex equations at the drop of a hat, or at all for that matter. The free rider strategy assumes only that the individual is capable of thinking, "I'm better off letting everyone else to all the work, since my contribution won't make any substantial difference to the outcome, while it will cost me dearly." (And because people do sometimes act collectively, we can conclude that more is at work in these instances than the crude [much less refined] weighing of alternative courses of action.) As per Axelrod, the evolutionary advantage of some game-theoretical strategies over others doesn't require any more than that Mr. X remembers that Mr. Y took him over in their last business transaction, while Mrs. Z was completely faithful in living up to her end of the bargain. David Gibson  From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 9 10:45:55 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 10:44:45 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 13:19:50 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: response to albers To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I'm not "so riled up." There was a discussion, initiated by others, over the appropriateness of using socgrad as a format for delivering non-interactive lectures. My initial response was that I believed TR Young had a right to say what he wants, anyway he wants, but that I found (what appeared at the time to be) the rhetorical ploy of couching posts as unauthored decrees of Truth to be counterproductive. After receiving further information, I admitted that some of those original assumptions may have been misunderstandings on my part, but that I still wanted to know why he/she refered to him/herself in the third person. These, to me, are legitimate questions for a given discourse, because I consider it productive to reduce "smokescreens" surrounding ideas to a minimum, in order to best compare and assess whatever ideas are on the table. I may, as Albers says, "protest too much," though, as far as I can tell, all I've done is present a perspective and ask relevant questions, some of which have been answered (and, miraculously, TR Young switched to the first person). So, Dale, "why don't you just sit back and enjoy" my contribution, as you suggest is the appropriate reaction to posts, or, as I suggest (and have done), perceive, consider, and engage? There is no reason for anyone on this list, no matter how couched, to try to silence any voice. If there's something I said which you find logically or empirically flawed, or some manner of saying it that you find either disengenuous or inflammatory, then by all means, say so. But, the fact that I say what I have to say, in and of itself, is not open to criticism. (Nor have I ever objected to Young saying what he has to say). Steve Harvey From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 00:57:25 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 19:34:20 -0700 for Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 19:34:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: over and under socialized concept of actors To: Steve Harvey Steve, Thanks for giving me a great opening for climbing on my favorite soap box. The notion that Parsons and rational choice theorists are polar opposites amuses me. Parson's was interested in developing a grand theory of how society writ large operates, and didn't really want to muck around with the micro foundations, but what he does say about individual agency is compatible with, and in fact conceptually prior to, the notion of individuals behaving in accordance with their own interests. Parsons talks about individuals internalizing values from their existence in a social environment. Weber acknowledged in his theory of agency that rational behavior does not displace value based behavior. In fact, in order to act rationally one must have preferences, and it is completely consistent with RCT that those preferences might arise from socialization and the internalization of values. [Note I am not saying this is necessarily the source of those preferences. I am just saying that Parson's essentially says that, and that stipulating a particular source of preferences does not conflict with any version of RCT that does not specify some other source of preferences. Versions of RCT that do specify the source of preferences have escaped my attention, but if you know of any I would be interested in hearing how widely embraced they are in the RCT universe.] Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 00:55:18 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 20:02:35 -0700 for Date: Sun, 09 Oct 94 22:36:39 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: response to Bob To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Bob- I didn't say that Parsons and RCT were "polar opposites". I said that one aspect of each form the poles of a debate. There are other aspects which are compatible. This is true for almost any two complex conceptualizations of *anything*: There will be some shared (perhaps more basic) elements, and some disparate nuances. Parsons' structural functionalism posits humans as role- nodes, not rational actors. This is the element of the two which forms ends of a particular continuum. As I said in my previous post, any sociological theory which posits purposive actors incorporates elements of RCT, but the narrow, and one might argue "ideal-typical", form of RCT posits actors which are expressly *not* role-nodes, but rather people who choose their best strategies indepen- dently of their location in any formal social structure. In this "ideal-typic- al" model, formal roles are relevant only in the degree to which they affect one's rational calculations of their best strategies, which would (and to some extent empirically does) imply far more defection, opportunism, shirking, and general tinkering with the possibilities than structural functionalism implies. Therein lies the difference. This is in fact what is referred to as the "undersocialized" v. "oversocialized" conceptions of the actor. That you argue some RCT theories incorporate more socialized models of human action than I've described as the "ideal-typical" model simply reiterates a point I made in the post you are contesting. Just as Marxism both forms a counterpoint to function- alism, and an expression of functionalism, so too can the same arguement be made of RCT and functionalism. As physicists and Taoists (not to mention Hegelian dialecticians) both know, opposites are complementary. Or, to put it another way, rather than seeing it as an "either/or" question (either Parsons is compatible with RCT, or Parsons is in opposition to RCT), more of the relationship is captured by considering it an "either/and" question. Steve Harvey harvey@uconnvm From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 00:35:50 1994 Sun, 9 Oct 1994 20:52:25 -0700 for Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: response to Bob To: Steve Harvey Steve, I wasn't trying to refute your post, just to raise an important and often overlooked point. Rational choice theory is built on motivated actors, but the source of their motives is unclear. Theorists who wish to look at society from the standpoint of social structure as the independent variable of interest can comment on the impact of social structure on the distribution of motives. Parsons is not my favorite theorist, but his discussion of socialization is motivated by the focus of his interests. While he is routinely criticized for treating individuals as over socialized role enactors rather than autonomous RCT type agents, in fact Parsons could be right and RCT could still hold on the micro level. For example, we could be socialized to be individualist consumers, and rationally act on those preferences. [Note: Again, let me be clear that I don't think Parsons account is complete. Preferences probably come from a variety of sources, including eccentric personal histories, biological drives, and socialization into role identities and normative (or deviant) values. All I am saying is that RCT really doesn't say where preferences come from, so is in no direct conflict with Parson's notion of socialized values and role demands. Empirical evidence challenging the existence of Parson's oversocialized actors neither strengthens nor weakens the claims of RCT.] Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 04:37:23 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 04:35:22 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:35:20 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Call for paper, sorry for dupes! (fwd) To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion FYI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 21:46:15 -0600 From: Thomas D. [Tom] Hall, THALL@DEPAUW.EDU Subject: Call for paper, sorry for dupes! CALL FOR PAPERS ON WORLD SYSTEM THEORY Thomas D. Hall Department of Sociology & Anthropology DePauw University Greencastle, IN 46135-0037 317-658-4519 internet: THALL@DEPAUW.EDU I have accepted an offer to edit a 1996 special issue of _Sociological Inquiry_ (the official journal of the international sociology honor society, ALPHA KAPPA DELTA). To that end I am soliciting papers and paper proposals for that special issue. I would like proposal for papers ASAP, and will return comments on them quickly (fastest way is to submit proposal via email). I anticipate making final decisions in Spring of 1995. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE INITIAL DRAFTS OF PAPERS BY MARCH 1, 1995. Papers should be less than 30 pages, double-spaced, including notes. I have a few general goals in mind for this issue which shape the types of papers I would like to receive. First, the mission of _Sociological Inquiry_ is to reach students, teachers, and researchers, so articles should be witten so that bright undergraduates can read them, but also have substantial contributions. Second, most of us who work with world-system theory have had the experience of seeing something that purports to deal with world- system theory, but indeed proceeds as if nothing has been written since Wallerstein wrote MWS I and his CSSH article in 1974. There is a lot of exciting new work: that is what I want to showcase. Third, the second goal can be furthered by sticking to the first goal: having articles that make it easy for for neophytes (students or teachers retooling) to join and entry the debates and research. In other words, NOT articles written for insiders. This type of article will be read and cited, and, I hope, entice students and teachers to look more deeply into the research described. My vision is for a special issue that will have some sort of cover essay about what has & is going on in world-system research, followed by articles on new topics, on world-system theory and X, where X might be: ecology, gender, pedagogy of wst, precapitalist (i.e., pre 1500 C. E) world-systems, race/ethnicity, native peoples/ 4th world/ American Indians, what's happening now that the "wall is down" (collapse of communism), etc. This list is SUGGESTIVE, NOT EXHAUSTIVE OR EXCLUSIVE. I will entertain--and would like to receive--articles from outside sociology which use, emend, critiqe, extend world-system theory. I would also like suggestions and volunteers for reviews of recent world-system, or world-system inspired books for the book review section. A review essay on the recent PEWS PRIZE winners would be a most welcome--if daunting--submission. Obviously, one 100-125 page journal cannot do all of this, but it gives an idea of what I am after (Authors may assume that basic terms will be defined in the opening essay so that it will NOT be necessary to start at zero). These kinds of articles can address "cutting edge" issues, but should do so in ways accessible to the general sociological reader. They can have significant impact in terms of educating colleagues who work in teaching institutions with heavy course loads, but who wish to stay current. The "bottom line" for me is to put together an issue about which even a casual peruser will say, "there's some exciting sociology being done by those world-system folk!" For further information, submission of proposals or papers, contact: Thomas D. Hall Department of Sociology & Anthropology DePauw University Greencastle, IN 46135-0037 317-658-4519 internet: THALL@DEPAUW.EDU  From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 04:42:14 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 04:40:23 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:40:22 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: H-DEMOG announcement (fwd) To: Social Science Data List , Sociology Graduate Student Discussion This new list may interest some of you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 23:23:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Prof K. V. Rao To: Demography Discussion List Subject: H-DEMOG announcement H-DEMOG, a new international electronic discussion group for scholars and teachers of historical demography, is now accepting subscribers. H-DEMOG is one of the lists of H-NET published by the University of Illinois, Chicago with additional funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities. H-NET is a broad initiative to establish electronic communications among historians and to educate historians in the use of electronic media. H-DEMOG is intended to provide scholars of all disciplines addressing historical populations and population change with a forum to discuss new (and old) theories, teaching and research methods, and findings. H-DEMOG will enable population scholars to easily communicate current research and teaching interests; to discuss new articles, books, papers, approaches, methods and tools of analysis; to explore new ideas and share comments and tips on teaching. We anticipate that discussions and announcements of a more general nature will also provide opportunities for comparative perspectives on contemporary issues in light of historical experiences. Reports on archival or bibliographic sources, new software, datasets or CD-ROMS will be welcomed. Relevant extracts from the H-NET JOB GUIDE will be posted, as will fellowship announcements, etc. Organizers of pertinent conferences and symposia are encouraged to post calls for papers and program contents. H-DEMOG will attempt to stimulate dialogues on teaching historical demography through publication of course syllabi and reading lists, course handouts, bibliographies or guides to term papers. In the near future, we will attempt to establish a regular forum for graduate students to post abstracts of their doctoral dissertations. If interest warrants, a historical demography gopher pointing to historical documents, census data, etc. will be developed. We hope in the future to be able to provide referees and electronically publish scholarly works. H-NET will soon inaugurate a Book Review Forum to promote discussion of important new scholarly publications. To subscribe, send the following message to h-demog@uicvm.uic.edu (bitnet users: h-demog@uicvm) but replace the angle brackets and contents with the information requested: sub h-demog From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 05:29:46 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 05:27:42 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 08:27:39 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Let NSF fund your world travel (to Japan) (fwd) To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Saw this in the alt.grad-student.tenured group and thought someone out there might be interested. Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:53:49 From: James W. Cassell To: CASSELL@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Subject: Let NSF fund your world travel (to Japan) --- Forwarded message follows --- From: peapud@cortez.its.rpi.edu (Diane Hope Peapus) Subject: Let NSF fund your world travel (to Japan) Date: 7 Oct 1994 15:29:05 GMT Greetings: This as an announcement about a really good opportunity for anyone who is a grad student, or will be a grad student, and is interested in spending a summer doing research in Japan. The program allows you to find a Japanese "host", whose research is somewhat compatable to your own, or attempts to match you to a Japanese host in your general area, if you have no host of your own in mind. I went last year and collected data that will be used in my postdoc work, as well as collecting data for other people in my lab. Please feel free to distribute the announcement to anyone that you think will be interested. Anyone wanting additional info about what it was really like, is free to contact me at... diane@cwxtl.bioc.cwru.edu diane h peapus 216-368-8682 ______________________________________________________________ From: jcassidy@nsf.gov To: si90@nsf.gov, si91@nsf.gov, si92@nsf.gov, si93@nsf.gov, si94@nsf.gov Subject: Summer Institute 1995 Date: 6 Oct 94 10:47 EST Dear Alumni: The NSF Japan Program would appreciate it if you would please distribute the following email advertisement to any and all appropriate people, places, etc. Please encourage your colleagues, friends, and students to apply! We are still receiving about 120-130 applications a year and are selecting 60 people. The odds are good! Thanks, Janice Cassidy Japan Program/NSF --------------------------- TO: Interested applicants FROM: NSF Japan Program SUBJECT: 1995 Summer Institute in Japan -------------------------------------------- NSF and NIH announce an opportunity for graduate students.... ** the 1995 SUMMER INSTITUTE IN JAPAN *** for U.S. Graduate Students in Science and Engineering, Including Biomedical Science and Engineering. APPLICATION DEADLINE: December 1, 1994 Program's Goal: to provide U.S. graduate students first- hand experience in a Japanese research laboratory. Program Elements: ** Internship at a Japanese government, corporate or university laboratory in Tokyo or Tsukuba; ** Intensive Japanese language training; ** Lectures on Japanese science, history, culture, etc. Program Duration and Dates: 8 weeks; June 23 to August 19, 1995. Eligibility requirements: 1. U.S. citizens or permanent residents 2. Enrolled at a U.S. institution in a science or engineering Ph.D. program, Enrolled in an M.D. program and have an interest in biomedical research, or Enrolled in an engineering M.S. program of which one year has been completed by December 1, 1994. To download application materials: Send e-mail message to stisserv@nsf.gov (InterNet) or stisserv@nsf (BitNet) Ignore the subject line, but body of message should read as follows: Request: stis Topic: nsf94130 Request: end You will receive a copy of publication 94-130, the program announcement for the 1995 Summer Institute in Japan, by return e-mail. Further inquiries: Contact NSF's Japan Program staff at NSFJinfo@nsf.gov (InterNet) or NSFJinfo@nsf (BitNet) Tel: (703) 306-1701 Fax: (703) 306-0477 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 05:56:47 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 05:55:06 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 08:45:08 EDT From: Alan Subject: Rational Choice theories To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU One piece that is missing is it matters very much, especially in terms of one's assumptions of the human agent and the contexts they act within and upon, where preferences come from. If preferences are strictly norm-driven then, one's options for action are relatively strictly proscribed, both with respect to observers in a particular context as well as actors themselves. I, however, preferences are purposively left multifarious, then, much more room is allowed for, and much more attention is paid to people's actions. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 15:21:05 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 15:18:30 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:16:50 CDT From: alina oh To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: ASA Does anyone on the list happen to know of other email newsletters for graduate students interested in sociological discussions? Thanks in advance for any info. Alina From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 15:43:58 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 15:39:53 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 18:39:46 EDT From: David Gibson To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: RCT & preferences Bob, I'm not sure the problem of preferences is as acute for RCT as you make it out to be. Or at least it doesn't need to be. "Preferences come from a variety of sources, including eccentric personal histories, biological drives, and socialization," you write. But happily, when it comes to action in most political and economic institutional contexts, the problem of the multifariousness of preferences is resolved by the fact that the generalized resources at stake in these arenas (power and money, most importantly) are necessary means NO MATTER WHAT preferences one may have acquired during the course of one's socialization, etc. Consequently, so long as people can be assumed to *have* preferences of a conventional variety (i.e., one is not suicidal and not an anarchist), their derivative preference for generalized means to those various ends can be taken for granted as a common orientation of action. Marcuse aside, one doesn't need to make reference to the preferences of consumerism to account for the submission of the working class (see Cohen and Rogers, _On Democracy_, ch. 2), since the way things are set up, regardless of what your preferences are you need some source of income -- which means automatically that you will prefer more income over less income ceteris paribus (or at least that this will overwhelmingly be the case), and so on. Ergo, we can go a long way assuming merely that individuals are *purposive*, so long as what is needed for the pursuit of one purpose is also needed for the pursuit of another. David Gibson  From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 17:35:57 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:33:04 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:32:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: Rational Choice theories To: Alan On Mon, 10 Oct 1994, Alan wrote: > One piece that is missing is it matters very much, especially in terms > of one's assumptions of the human agent and the contexts they act within > and upon, where preferences come from. If preferences are strictly norm-driven > then, one's options for action are relatively strictly proscribed, both with > respect to observers in a particular context as well as actors themselves. > I, however, preferences are purposively left multifarious, then, much more > room is allowed for, and much more attention is paid to people's actions. > Couldn't you have a multifarious but equally determined assumption about where preferences come from (E.g. - preferences are produced by a combination of physiological and expreriential factors, both of which follow regular and predictable patterns)? It is a mistake to think that this is some sort of free will versus determinism conflict when in fact it is simply a debate over whether a particular specification of the origin of preferences in adequate. All rational choice theorists care about is that preferences exists, and that they are consistent enough within a particular domain that specification of preferences yields a useful model of individual behavior. Unfortunately, RCT has been ideologically associated with competitive individualism. There is nothing irrational about normative preferences. Preferences are necessary for rational evaluation of alternatives, and as long as they make such rational evaluation possible they are adequate foundations for RCT. Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 18:08:45 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 18:07:34 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 18:07:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: RCT & preferences To: David Gibson On Mon, 10 Oct 1994, David Gibson wrote: > I'm not sure the problem of preferences is as acute for RCT as you > make it out to be. I think I'm not being clear about my point. I do not think RCT needs to concern itself with the origin of preferences, which is why I don't see the direct conflict with Parsons. What RCT needs, in any substantive domain, is a specification of preferences which predicts the actions typical of agents within that particular domain. In some fields the choice is obvious. Economic activity can be predicted fairly reliably by assuming that more money is prefered over less money. While that preference structure may not fit all individuals, it describes the model choice making fairly well. Similarly, political scientists have had some success specifying that political actors prefer more power over less power. Since your driving me in this direction, I'll admit that I do have a bone to pick with the use of preference specifications in RCT, but it has to do with scope, not the origin of preferences. There are domains or fields (using Bordieu's term deliberately) where certain interests clearly predominate, but the scope of a particular set of dominant preferences is in itself an empirical question. Some RCT simply tries to extend economic preferences into other domains, but that will never explain the behavior of Mother Theresa, nor will it explain why people fall in love, follow fashions, go to graduate school (excluding professional schools), or believe in God. The more sophisticated rational choice theorists realize this, and try to specify scope and empirically verify preferences, but most don't. > Ergo we can go a long way assuming merely that individuals are > *purposive*, so long as what is needed for the pursuit of one > purpose is also needed for the pursuit of another. I completely agree, but I think the above list contains several areas in which preferences are decidely different. Some people are principally concerned with salvation, and behave in ways which are purposive but economically irrational. Gary Becker decided that the logic external to families (individual income maximization) didn't fit the interactions internal to families. Consumption preferences often invole such non economic considerations as status. So even in economics it is not always adequate to treat individuals simply as wealth maximizers. I am not trying to strongly refute RCT, simply to suggest that the beef with Parsons is overblown, and the two approaches are not mutually exclusive, but rather operate on different levels of analysis. The micro actors in Parsons' grand vision could be rational choice makers, and the source of preferences that rational choice makers use in evaluating alternatives could be socialization and the internalization of norms and values. I'm not claiming this is so, only that there is no logical contradiction. Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 18:36:37 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 18:35:23 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 21:27:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "John B. Thomas" Subject: moral philosophy and sociology (fwd) To: socgrad I would like to know what individuals on this listserv understand the relationship between moral philosophy and sociology to be. It has been suggested by at least one author (that I know of) that the study of human action is essentially the study of VALUES (the presumption is that human beings engage in a given action because it has more or higher value than other actions they might have engaged in at a specific point in time). The stereotypical response to this assertion is that value-based action requires a rational agent (and thus irrational actions would not fit neatly into this construct), but I am not convinced that this is true. It seems to me to be justifiable to say that a tree VALUES water and sunlight, though as far as I know, trees are not considered rational agents. Anyway, I don't want to load this question with my point of view anymore, so let me know what you think. JBT From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 18:46:19 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 18:45:25 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 21:37:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "John B. Thomas" Subject: T.R. Young To: socgrad I would just like to say that I am all for the mini-lectyres by T.R. Young appearing on this list as often as possible. If you don't want to read them, you can delete them with the touch of a button (at least I can). I don't see how they can hurt, especially since it is my understanding that the purpose of lists like this one is to promote the free exchange of ideas with the hope of raising the quality of scientific investigation. JBT - Syracuse University From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 18:53:04 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 18:52:15 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 18:52:15 -0700 From: <@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU:SOCAK663@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU> Apparently-To: Sorry if someone has already forwarded this to the list...thought some of you may be interested. j ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:41:00 CDT From: Mott, Jim I would like to invite every one here to join the newest discussion list that was created at George Mason University at Fairfax, VA, USA: CULTURE@GMU.EDU This discussion group deals with issues of multiculturism on campuses throughout the United States and Europe. The central theme of the discussion is the impact of different ethnic group upon each other and particularly upon the indigenous culture within the context of the university environment. To subscribe send a message to "LISTPROC@GMU.EDU" with the message, SUB CULTURE Thanks. M.S. Arkawi, list maintainer.  New (non-H-NET) List--Multiculturalism on Campus (x H-Post) From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 19:26:09 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 19:23:49 -0700 for Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 22:13:50 EDT From: Alan Subject: Rational Choice and Human agency To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU It is true that, on some level, normative commitments can inform or shape the actions of particular actors. But, the main thrust is, that norms and internalization isn't all there is to it, and, unless someone is in a quest to prove the inherent conceptual predictability of a human actor, internalizati on and norms are not the most fruitful avenue to go down in explaining why actors do what they do. A very good case in point is religious switching. One would be hard pressed to explain on normative criteria alone not only the fact that people change religious denominations and affiliations in their lifetimes, but also why people who have switched into a religion or denomination as adults often show greater levels of religious practice, and doctrinal understanding than those who were raised as and remain members of a particular group. In this world, parental socialization explains less and less about adult behavior, and while "internalization " might exist and operate, it is hardly the requisite social process Parsons made it out to be. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 10 21:05:06 1994 Mon, 10 Oct 1994 21:03:36 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 21:02:15 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: T.R. Young The consensus (or at the majority view) appears to be that T.R.'s mini-lectures lie somewhere between "useful" and "harmless" and we should ask him to continue. Unless there are strenuous objections, I will convey this to T.R. tomorrow (Tuesday). Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 01:03:25 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 01:02:31 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 01:01:09 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: ASA On Oct 10, 5:16pm, alina oh wrote: > Does anyone on the list happen to know of other email newsletters for > graduate students interested in sociological discussions? Well, it's not for graduate students per se, but there is the Progressive Sociologists Network (PSN). [Begin Advertisement] In the words of moderator Martha Gimenez, PSN is a "virtual cafe" for progressive sociologists to analyze the issues of the day from a sociological perspective; to discuss timeless (in an historically specific sense :) issues of social theory; and to commiserate over the trials and tribulations of being a progressive academic. You outta be a "progressive" to join, but no definition of "progressive" is enforced. To join, send mail to listserv@csf.colorado.edu with no subject and with the body of the message reading "sub psn your name". [End Advertisement] PSN has about the same level of traffic as this list, and the signal to noise ratio (if you will) is probably a bit higher. I know of no other lists specifically for sociologists, but there are zillions of multi-disciplinary lists on methods and specific substantive areas. There is also, as was mentioned last week, the USENET group alt.sci.sociology (which is virtually all noise). Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 05:48:00 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 05:42:48 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 08:27:20 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: preferences and money To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU David's post suggesting that the preference for wealth and power is sufficient- ly necessary for the maximization of other utilities does not address a variety of relevant issues, such as "labor/leisure" tradeoffs, and other "indifference curves", in which preferences in competition with wealth and power create a limit to how much many people are willing to expend effort attaining. Some people may have a very low preference for wealth and/or power, and a very high preference for leisure and/or simplicity (ala Thoreau). Whatever the case, RCTs and microeconomists *do not* assume that wealth maximization is necessari- ly a dominant preference. That some people have a sufficiently strong preference for wealth and power, and/or can attain them cheaply enough (e.g., inheritance) that they are motivated to seemingly maximize them without limit, is only one portion of the total picture of how purposive action generates social phenomena. Steve Harvey harvey@uconnvm From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 06:58:51 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 06:54:44 -0700 for Date: 11 Oct 1994 08:43:15 CDT From: To: Subject: Regional associations and journals What are the different regional associations and journals? For example, the Midwest Sociological Society sponsors "The Sociological Quarterly". Also, what states are included in the regional associations? I'm not sure about the Midwest, but it includes Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, and Wisconsin at least. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Dave Hunt davehunt@uiuc.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 07:20:32 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 07:17:04 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 10:11:39 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: ESS To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU The Eastern Sociological Society publishes _Sociological Forum_, and includes the eastern seaboard down to somewhere around DC. Sorry, that's as precise as I can get. (Alan probably knows more exactly). From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 07:33:59 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 07:27:59 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 10:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: Regional associations and journals To: SSQLHUNT@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu On 11 Oct 1994 SSQLHUNT@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU wrote: > What are the different regional associations and journals? For example, > the Midwest Sociological Society sponsors "The Sociological Quarterly". > Also, what states are included in the regional associations? I'm not sure > about the Midwest, but it includes Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, and > Wisconsin at least. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > > Dave Hunt > davehunt@uiuc.edu > Here are a few I know: Social Forces -- Southern Sociological Society Sociological Forum --Eastern Sociological Society Sociological Perspectives -- Pacific Sociologgical Society (I think) I'm sure there are some others. I'm not sure about the mapping of states to regions, but I know that some people belong to "regional" societies outside of the geographic region in which they live. Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 08:21:29 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 08:14:24 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:02:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Sakamoto White Subject: Re: Regional associations and journals To: SSQLHUNT@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu Two regional journals that I know of: Southern Sociological Society: Social Forces Mid-South Sociological Association: Sociological Spectrum Hope this helps, Bill ___________________________________________________________________ Bill Sakamoto White "A pessimist complains about Department of Sociology the noise when opportunity Georgia State University knocks." socwawx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu ---unknown ------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 08:56:29 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 08:50:57 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:51:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Wanda Kosinski Subject: SAS & TRYOUNG To: Grad Sociologists SAS: Is anyone on this list going to the Applied Sociology meeting in Detroit next week? I'm attending the SPSS Windows workshop on Thursday...anyone else? Just wondering ... TR YOUNG: All things considered, I would like Prof. Young to continue to post to this list. As someone else suggested, those who choose not to read the postings can simply delete them. Regards, Wanda :***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:**: :wanda kosinski : the purpose of life : :division of basic studies : is : :ramapo college of new jersey : a life of purpose : :505 ramapo valley road : * * * * * * : :mahwah, new jersey 07430 : be alive and risking : :201/529-7560 : not : :email: wkosinsk@ultrix.ramapo.edu : safe and dead : :***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:**: From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 09:56:08 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 09:49:14 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:44:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard D Sullivan Subject: Re: Regional associations and journals To: SSQLHUNT@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu On 11 Oct 1994 SSQLHUNT@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU wrote: > What are the different regional associations and journals? For example, > the Midwest Sociological Society sponsors "The Sociological Quarterly". > Also, what states are included in the regional associations? I'm not sure > about the Midwest, but it includes Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, and > Wisconsin at least. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > > Dave Hunt > davehunt@uiuc.edu > Dave, the other member states in the Midwest Sociological Society are: North and South Dakota, Minnesota, Kansas, and Nebraska. Indiana is not officially a member state. These are guidelines for membership, but I am sure they are more loosely than tightly defined. Richard Sullivan From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 10:27:35 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 10:15:07 -0700 for Tue, 11 Oct 94 13:15:00 +1100 From: "MORTON ENDER" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 13:14:27 EDT Subject: Re: Regional associations and journals social science quarterly -- southwestern social science association sociology -- british sociological association :-) morten From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 10:52:31 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 10:44:15 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 12:43:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Deborah R. Bronson" Subject: University of South Florida To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Sorry to clutter the list, but I am interested in the University of South Florida; Do they offer a graduate program offer in Sociology? Deb From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 11:51:32 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 11:45:17 -0700 for Tue, 11 Oct 94 14:45:14 +1100 From: "MORTON ENDER" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:44:49 EDT Subject: montana state u socgradders: anyone attend the sociology/anthropology program at montana state u. also, i heard bozman is mountain bike friendly and at the foot of the grand tetons ____...^^^^..^^...^^^^^^_____...true? morten ender From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 12:49:55 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 12:41:18 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 94 15:41 EDT From: "Frank D. Beck" Subject: Re: Regional associations and journals To: SSQLHUNT@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu In addition to those listed so far, the North Central Sociological Society publishes Sociological Focus. --Frank From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 13:24:06 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 13:14:26 -0700 for by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V4.3-11 #5489) id <01HI5KSPMMGG9EDS9N@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 15:14:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 15:14:22 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU From: 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Christopher Gunn) Subject: Re: ASA To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Michael Lichter wrote, >[....] There is also, as was mentioned last week, the USENET >group alt.sci.sociology (which is virtually all noise). It's noise in an information-theoretic sense but by Usenet standards it's disappointingly *quiet*, maybe 2 to 5 messages per day. A few real sociological discussions could swamp the noise and make the group viable. I don't know if I have the energy to be among the volunteers to do that, however. I know I've thought about it but never jumped in to do it.... Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 15:07:11 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 15:02:30 -0700 for Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 15:02:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: preferences and money To: Steve Harvey Steve, I agree that sophisticated microeconomists and rational choice theorists do not believe in a unidimensional preference structure without any notion of satiation or declining marginal utility. I tend somewhat toward RCT thinking myself, so I don't have anything against that analytical approach. Do you agree, however, that the microeconomic conception of economic man, as advanced by Friedman and others, is a deliberately oversimplified conception of human motivations? I'm not saying that the oversimplification isn't useful. In many issues it is very helpful. However, whether this conception is adequate for a particular research objective is an empirical question, and the answer is "no" more often than proponents of RCT generally admit. Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 11 23:48:49 1994 Tue, 11 Oct 1994 23:47:44 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 00:41:16 +0000 From: Gregory Yelland Subject: Re: T.R. Young To: Socgrad I agree with John. I've enjoyed T.R. Young's posts and also would like to have his posts available as a source of stimulation for this list. I think that we need to engage T.R. and each other in some discussion in order to take advantage of these posts. Also, I don't know how many people have asked T.R. for any of the additional info he's offered but since receiving his disk I have found some interesting and intriguing thoughts with plenty of references. Gregory S. Yelland From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 05:22:00 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 05:20:37 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 08:05:26 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: RCT To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Bob- I definately agree that "homo oeconomicus" is an oversimplified model of human action, but the applicability of the model goes beyond those arenas in which human action approximates it. As I pointed out in a previous post, evolutionary biologists can use game theory as a tool for studying ecological competition, though none of the species involve are "rational actors". As a person interested in general theory, and synthesizing available theories into more powerful ones, I maintain that RCT is a valuable component in that enterprise. For my purposes, I don't "switch" from paradigm to paradigm to address disparate issues; rather, I try to find some model which can underwrite an exploration of all issues which interest me. That is how theory is driven. RCT isn't the only thread I include: I also use various "sociologies of knowledge" (as we've discussed, how preferences are formed is a key question), and find, for instance, Foucault to be especially "compatible" with game theory. The point is, I'm driven toward grand synthesis. That's just where I get my thrills. So, yes, at present there are certainly questions which can be addressed more effectively with theories other than RCT, or some variant thereof. But I tend to look for how those two approaches "fit together", rather than just cut and paste. To put it another way, I don't think sociology is a very powerful science at present, but that it has the potential of becoming a powerful science in the future. I'm less interested in using sociology to come up with the best possible answers to current questions as in developing sociology into a more powerful lens in general, which I believe involves theory building (in a coherent, rather than dispersed way). -steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 07:43:29 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 07:41:58 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:34:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: tr young To: socgrad hello folks considering the boring pontification we grad students already jointly produce and tolerate on this list, i see no problem letting an honorary proffessorial sort on the list for diversity of opinions and creative ideas. of course this is supposed to be a list for grad students, but young's input can be helpful or deleted for the sake of helping us out with new ideas and varieous points of view. i feel though that we may want to have very few other professorial sorts for sake of keeping people talking without thinking their ideas are being listened to by intimidating folks. it doesn't take a leap of imagination from this point though to think that there are profs who are on this list who just don't speak up. hmmm... well hello then to them. we know you're listening! this is ramblesome and poorly written. sorry. michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 07:54:49 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 07:53:10 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:44:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: malls and more To: socgrad boulder mall struck me as interesting not because of its setup, but becauseof the people there. it was wierd to go and see so many people looking so rough. it was a fashion parade for the granolas! i laughed to myself thinking of our yuppie suburban malls and everyone dressed all pretty, and just how similar others like the boulder mall or maybe even the whole town of athens, ga. just as i feel underdressed at yuppie hangouts, i felt overdressed at this particular granola hangout. which brings up the well-trodden questions of individualism again. these people here all probably thought they were daring individuals with all pie]ced body parts, flannel rags, and doc martin shoes. and maybe they would be daring individuals, except that the people walking the other way were ,comparing hair length, pierced parts, and just whose $100 docs were most beat up. gimmee a break it's just a game of keep up with sid & nancy now because it is now hip to be wierd (in some circles). the best part is, they don't realize how yuppie they already are. they don't get it!!! ha ha ha ho ho ho and hee hee hee to them. people are strange (and not just the wierdos). i love sociology. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 08:38:10 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 08:32:36 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:25 EDT From: SCOTT BLAKE Subject: Re: malls and more To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I agree with the fundamentals of michael's post about the conformity and one-up-personship that now takes place in the "grunge" and "granola" circles. I would simply like to point out that things were not always like that and it is perhpas a better lesson in the power of society to co-opt its rebels than one in the fallacy of group individualism. The "grunge" phenomenon has its roots in the punk movements of the late 1970's and early 1980's. At the time, disaffected youths were practicing random acts of vandalism and senseless violence in an effort to break out of the molds imposed on them. They (we) wore the same cloths for weeks, we smelled bad, we did drugs, we engaged in petty larceny, we called police "pigs", we lashed out in an un-coordinated, stupid way. What was happening then? How did we get from a cohort crying out for change in the only way we knew to pseudo-yuppies competing for the most expensive combat nboots? I'd love to discuss this in greater detail and length if folks are up to it. scott blake From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 09:32:52 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:27:04 -0700 for (5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA07770; Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:26:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: RCT To: Steve Harvey Steve, Based on your last post, it seems we are mostly engaged in loud agreement. Given your synthesis bent, I have to questions for you: 1) Have you read any of Pierre Bordieu's work? He is the best synthesizer I've run across, and is very eclectic with regard to both methods and theoretical affiliation. 2) Do you think there is any validity to my original proposal that RCT and Parsons can coexist peacefully in the same view of human bahavior. Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 10:33:50 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 10:27:56 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 13:21:37 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: reply to Bob To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Bob- I've *skimmed* Bordieu's work, but maybe I'll take your suggestion and give it a closer look (though, to be honest, I'm much more into writing my novel these days than working on my dissertation). And, yes, I think Parsons and RCT are compatible *in some ways*. But, I think that all good ideas are ultimately compatible, even archaic ones. Just call me an intellectual pollyanna! Cheers, Steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 11:14:12 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:08:43 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 14:05:15 EDT From: DCT93001@UConnVM.UConn.Edu To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU subscribe socgrad Dianne Tillman From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 12:56:49 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 12:52:11 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 15:50 EDT From: "Pamela Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: REMINDER - discussion of sociological forum A number of people have expressed interest in discussing 'what is wrong with Sociology.' This is a reminder that we will start the discussion about a week from today - lets just say next Thursday. I hope many people get the chance to read it by then! Morten nicely supplied us with the cite: _soc forum_, 9(2), june 1994 Pam Paxton From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 13:38:17 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 13:29:22 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 16:28:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Wanda Kosinski Subject: Graduate Student Defined To: Grad Sociologists I'm responding to Michael Gibbon's recent post regarding subscription to this list. I guess I'm asking for a definition of who is welcome (or not welcome) to subscribe to this list, if such a definition exists. Are you suggesting, Michael, that a person's intimidation level would be increased (or decreased) by their knowledge of who is "listening in" on our discussions? You cite "professional types" as possible sources of intimidation to others on this list. I don't get it. If sociology faculty (i.e., professional types) are out there listening in, maybe its simply because they're interested in what we're talking about/thinking about. I tend to get "intimidated" when faclty behavior suggests that they are NOT much interested in what I'm doing/thinking/saying. Are others intimidated by the knoledge that sociology faculty and/or other sociology professionals might be subscribed to this list? A study by Karp and Yoels on student participation in the college classroom comes to mind. Their findings suggest that a few students take on the active role of "talkers" (i.e., answer questions, make comments, etc.) while the other students maintain the roles of "passive notetakers." Maybe something similar is going on here and its not intimidation that keeps people quiet. Just a thought. Wanda :***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:**: :wanda kosinski : the purpose of life : :division of basic studies : is : :ramapo college of new jersey : a life of purpose : :505 ramapo valley road : * * * * * * : :mahwah, new jersey 07430 : be alive and risking : :201/529-7560 : not : :email: wkosinsk@ultrix.ramapo.edu : safe and dead : :***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:***:**: From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 14:34:26 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:32:28 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 17:15:17 EDT From: Thomas Loya Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: SUMMER RA OBLIATIONS To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi socgradders! Read on if you would be willing to offer a few bits of information about your soc grad program RA obligations. Grads at Emory Soc dept. were recently made aware (by the dean of grad school) that ours is the only program that expects grads to work over the summer for their advisor in an RA capacity. We are considering bringing this up at a meeting w/faculty soon, with the intention of presenting it as in our mutual interest to be free for the summer (to do research, M.A. or PhD work, study for comps, etc.), especially as it would fav- orably impact time-to-degree, something everyone would like to shorten. It's not that were unwilling to work with faculty--of course the mutual benefits are obvious--but we're interested in making this a voluntary cooperation, or payed in addition to fellowships. What we're interested in discovering is how many other medium-sized grad programs expect this (in addition to the obligation to work the entire school year for 4 years as RA or TA). If anyone is interested in the responses to this little survey, I'd be happy to send them back out, in case this is a negotiable issue at other programs. (We don't know how negotiable it is here, but we've got nothing to lose). So, are you obligated, yes obligated, to work over the summer? for a faculty member? If so, how many hours? Is the obligation for entire period of grad school, or 1-2 years? Incidentally, the level of support is not so important. THis is set by the university, and it is up to the departments' discretion what will be expected in return. Don't get the wrong impression--we like to work, but most of must take some additional summer employment, and in addition to 15 hrs/week for a faculty member, we don't tend to get too much done on our own academic work. THanks for your input!!! TOM L. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 14:47:33 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:44:21 -0700 for Subject: Graduate Student Defined To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 17:44:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen T Farquharson Wanda said: > > I'm responding to Michael Gibbon's recent post regarding > subscription to this list. I guess I'm asking for a definition of > who is welcome (or not welcome) to subscribe to this list, if such > a definition exists. Are you suggesting, Michael, that a person's > intimidation level would be increased (or decreased) by their knowledge > of who is "listening in" on our discussions? You cite "professional > types" as possible sources of intimidation to others on this list. > I don't get it. If sociology faculty (i.e., professional types) > are out there listening in, maybe its simply because they're > interested in what we're talking about/thinking about. I tend to > get "intimidated" when faclty behavior suggests that they are NOT > much interested in what I'm doing/thinking/saying. > Are others intimidated by the knoledge that sociology faculty and/or > other sociology professionals might be subscribed to this list? I have to admit that I didn't read Michael's initial post. Anyway, in terms of intimidation, I really don't care who "listens" in on our discussions. Our discussions are generally not (IMHO) on secretive topics. We generally do what sociologists in other forums do, namely, critically analyze whatever it is we're discussing. In any case, how likely is it that vindictive faculty members (or anyone else) are subscribing? It seems much more likely that, as Wanda says, they're interested in (curious about?) what we're talking about. As has been said before, there aren't a whole lot of online options for general discussions of sociology. > > A study by Karp and Yoels on student participation in the college > classroom comes to mind. Their findings suggest that a few students > take on the active role of "talkers" (i.e., answer questions, make > comments, etc.) while the other students maintain the roles > of "passive notetakers." Maybe something similar is going on here and > its not intimidation that keeps people quiet. Just a thought. Sounds reasonable. I have to admit that I enjoy reading a lot of the posts, but don't usually contribute, not due to intimidation, but because I often don't have an interesting contribution to make. Karen From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 15:40:09 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:37:29 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 16:37:26 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: malls and more To: Michael Gibbons Michael, I don't know how old you are, but you have noticed what many of us noticed about the hippies back in the 60s, or for those of us who are even older, the beatniks in the 40s-50s. Maybe the first 10 or so people who stuck flowers in their hair were individuals, but after that, it was just another uniform and demanded the same amount of conformity as the "Establishment" did. And those of us who have moved on in time note that those "radical hippies" have become the Establishment of our current system, demanding conformity, political correctness in a very self-righteous way that is no different than the generation they were rebelling against. I used to live in Boulder--it's a trip, isn't it, Boulder Mall. When we first moved there in '82, my then 14-year-old son observed the overalls-dressed guitar players who were playing old Dylan and Byrds songs trying to capture who-knows-what, and my son said, "Jesus, don't these guys know this was over 10 years ago?" Yes, Boulder is VERY granola. I love watching fashion. Yuppies don't want to look obviously yuppie so they try to dress grunge, but their grunge is purchased from Banana Republic, not a thrift store. Notice how haute couture emulates gang fashion and how baggy pants have been adopted by the most mainstream kids. People want to look "rough" but they also want you to know they're well-to-do so they have to pay a lot of money for the roughness. Cracks me up too!! Gather from your comment Athens, GA, is like that too. I am really aware of this stuff because of my name--I can't tell you how many inane comments I get, aside from the very obvious "do you have a cause?" For instance, I recently went to our dept's GSA meeting. A new graduate said, upon being introduced to me, "You're not at all what I expected." Well, first of all, who is she to EXPECT anything of me just because of a name?? I don't expect something of you because your name is Michael. It's just a f___ing name! But anyway, if what you expect is that I came flying in on my Harley with a purple mohawk and tassles on my tits (I AM female), and then I conformed to your expectations, then I wouldn't be much of a "rebel", would I? That's what I said to her. Probably about the most "rebellious" thing I could do is be normal since most people expect me to be otherwise, whatever that means. But if I were to be guided by their expectations at all, either way, then I'm not being very rebellious am I?? That's why I have to laugh, like you, at all these people who dress rough in their $100 grunge shoes thinking they're being rebellious--and they don't ever seem to get it--that they're just conforming to another fad. If it's "hip to be weird" but you're all being weird the same way, then you're not really weird, are you? The best and only way, it seems to me from having thought about this A LOT!, to be "rebellious" is to be yourself, whatever that is. Being yourself, and not a clone to some fad or political correctness, is rare enough these days to be considered rebellious or weird, to my way of thinking. On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Michael Gibbons wrote: > boulder mall struck me as interesting not because of its setup, but > becauseof the people there. it was wierd to go and see so many people > looking so rough. it was a fashion parade for the granolas! i laughed to > myself thinking of our yuppie suburban malls and everyone dressed all > pretty, and just how similar others like the boulder mall or maybe even > the whole town of athens, ga. just as i feel underdressed at yuppie > hangouts, i felt overdressed at this particular granola hangout. > > which brings up the well-trodden questions of individualism again. these > people here all probably thought they were daring individuals with all > pie]ced body parts, flannel rags, and doc martin shoes. and maybe they > would be daring individuals, except that the people walking the other way > were ,comparing hair length, pierced parts, and just whose $100 docs were > most beat up. gimmee a break it's just a game of keep up with sid & > nancy now because it is now hip to be wierd (in some circles). the best > part is, they don't realize how yuppie they already are. they don't get > it!!! ha ha ha ho ho ho and hee hee hee to them. people are strange (and > not just the wierdos). i love sociology. > > > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 15:48:36 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:45:19 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 17:39:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Mary Burbach Subject: ? regarding what's wrong with Soc.. To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Sorry to have to send this to the whole list but I managed to delete the name of the last person who wrote about this. Regarding the upcoming discussion of the issue of Sociological Forum that deals with "what's wrong with sociology" - this is going to be on the whole list, right? I'm not sure how much I'll pipe in or how much I'll get read, but I am looking forward to reading what others think about it, so I hope this isn't going to be off net!!! Hopefully, by discussing what is wrong with sociology, we will be able to come up with at least a few things that are *right* with sociology, or at least things that we can make better as we enter the field. Looking forward to next week! Mary From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 18:54:24 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 18:52:35 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 20:52:25 CDT From: alina oh To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Bourdieu and RCT Hi. I'm sort of hesitant about jumping into this midstream but the mention of Bourdieu and rational choice theory compels me to mention a couple of thoughts. 1) while I'd agree with the perception that Bourdieu's project aspires to synthesize the works of sociology's classic triumvirate "gods" [he places class at the center of his analysis, he borrows the notion of classificatory schemas from Durkheim, and is eclectic with regard to methods and so on] - I'd also have to say that I think his theoretical apparatus, esp. the notion of 'habitus' enables him to transcend rather than embrace the assumptions of rational choice theory and structural functionalism 2) the debate on rational choice theory here reminds me of the debates I've seen raging on campus - in particular between Gary Becker [Mr. Nobel Laureate rational choice theorist himself] and Marshal Sahlins [Anthropologist]. To give a simplified portrait of the Becker and Sahlins debate, I'd ask you to imagine the two of them sitting at the same table with their backs turned to one another, refusing to look at one another throughout the whole debate, dropping hints that the other belongs on the "wrong planet". ;) if each "converted" to the paradigm which he believed provided the most powerful lens, and adhered to the principles and commandments relevant for each, then how are these debates to be resolved? in raising this question, I don't mean to neglect the insights, the constructive aspects to be gleaned, though. Alina From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 19:50:56 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 19:46:11 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 22:25:39 EDT From: LISA EARGLE Subject: CONFORMIST INDIVIDUALISM To: REBEL AND MICHAEL YEAH, I WAS REMARKING THE SAME THING TO A FRIEND TODAY AT LUNCH. BACK IN THE EARLY 1980S, IF ANYONE --ESPECIALLY A WOMAN -- WORE WORK BOOTS, HIKING BOOTS, OR CLUNKY SHOES, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN BRANDED A WEIRDO AND LAUGHED OUT OF TOWN. NOW, IN 1994, THE LATEST FASHION CRAZE IS TO LOOK LIKE LUMBERJACKS OR RICH HOMELESS PEOPLE (I.E. $100 SHOES, $50 SAGGY BAGGY JEANS). I FIND IT AMUSING TOO. I KNOW SOME GRADS WHO BRAG ABOUT BUYING CLOTHES AT THE SALVATION ARMY THRIFT STORE. SUDDENLY TO LOOK LIKE (AH, BUT NOT BE) TRASH IS HIP. IT'S REALLY FUNNY THINKING ABOUT THE EARLY 1980S AND COMPARING IT TO NOW. TWO VERY DIFFERENT PHILOSPHIES. YET, THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY STAY THE SAME. EVERYBODY THINKS THEY'RE FOOLING EVERYONE ELSE (INTO THINKING THEY'RE RICH, COOL, OR WHATEVER) BUT THEY'RE ONLY FOOLING THEMSELVES. LIKE YOU SAID, REBEL, THE MOST ORIGINAL AND RADICAL THING A PERSON CAN DO IS TO DEFINE FOR THEMSELVES WHO THEY ARE --NOT BE WHAT OTHERS DEFINE THEM TO BE. BUT, I SEE VERY LITTLE "RADICALISM" OF THAT SORT GOING ON AROUND ME. MAYBE THEY'RE ALL RADICALS INCOGNITO. I DON'T KNOW. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 12 21:21:31 1994 Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:18:56 -0700 for Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:18:55 -0700 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: individualism As sociologists, I find it very odd that some here are talking about "just being yourself." Since, while we all have unique biographies, I think sociology challenges the notion that the individual has some true inner core, free from outside influences. This is not to say that I'm not also interested in fads and fashions disguised as individual statements. But what I find most interesting is how these movements, which often did have their origins on the "street" invariably seem to get commodified as well as trying to figure out what, if any, rebellious impulse was contained in them originally. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 05:43:58 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:40:28 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 08:17:18 EDT From: Lisa Eargle Subject: sociology To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Something you folks might want to read in addition to the sociological Forum issue is "The Era of Sociology" by Albion Small in the July issue of AJS. It's a reprint of an article he wrote in 1895, when he created the journal. Sometimes I hear people remark "Oh, sociology is nothing but common sense! Anyone can do what you guys are doing." It's interesting we still haven't been able to distinguish in the public's mind within the last 100 years the difference between Sociology (the research kind) and popular wisdom about social phenomena. Hence, we have trouble explaining why our work is needed or our usefulness. Since the phenomena we study is easily observed by all, it makes us more vunerable, I suppose, to our legitimacy being questioned than that of other disciplines. One of the things I think we can do is to emphasize how common sense isn't always the right answer -- it just appears to be. So, we need to examine the phenomenon to see what is going on. We need to get that message to the public and one way we won't do that is to hide in the ivory tower. --Lisa Eargle From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 06:42:29 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 06:41:11 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 09:40:37 EDT From: JEPSTEIN@KENTVM.KENT.EDU To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU ANNOUNCEMENT ROCKLIST is a net discussion group dedicated the academic examination of popular music in all it's various forms. The list welcomes discussion from a cultural, historical, sociological, political, feminist, philosophical or theoretical perspective, although it is not limited to these forms of discourse. ROCKLIST is unmoderated, allowing for the free exchange of ideas in an open and diverse enviornment. Because of the unmoderated nature of the list, respect for others opinions and differences is expected. Anyone with an academic or scholarly interest in popular music, which transends, but does not negate fandom, is welcome to join ROCKLIST. To subscribe to ROCKLIST send this message to LISTSERV@KENTVM.KENT.EDU: sub rocklist yourfirstname yourlastname To post message to ROCKLIST send email to: ROCKLIST@KENTVM.KENT.EDU Questions regarding ROCKLIST should be directed to: JEPSTEIN@KENTVM.KENT.EDU From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 07:14:06 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:05:41 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:05:53 -0400 (EDT) From: blyden b potts Subject: Fads and Rebels To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Ah, what a great new fad -- just be yourself. In the words of Brian: "You're all individuals" and in the words of another wise man: "I'm not." -From Monty Python's The Life of Brian just in case anyone isn't already familiar with it. If everyone gets on the bandwagon of just being themselves, then they're not really rebel individuals, just a new type of conformity, right? {Smile, it's only real life} Blyden B. Potts From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 07:14:10 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:08:38 -0700 for Thu, 13 Oct 94 10:08:32 +1100 From: "MORTON ENDER" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: rebel palm aitchison , socgrad Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:08:14 EDT Subject: Re: malls and more >very rebellious am I?? That's why I have to laugh, like you, at all >these people who dress rough in their $100 grunge shoes thinking >they're being rebellious--and they don't ever seem to get it--that >they're just conforming to another fad. If it's "hip to be weird" >but you're all being weird the same way, then you're not really >weird, are you? The best and only way, it seems to me from having >thought about this A LOT!, to be "rebellious" is to be yourself, >whatever that is. Being yourself, and not a clone to some fad or >political correctness, is rare enough these days to >be considered rebellious or weird, to my way of thinking. i'm not a conspiracy theorist on this topic--but i also can't laugh at how flannel shirts used to cost $19.95 at a hardware store and now cost $250.00 on rodeo drive...it seems to me the political economy, the media and individual terror of change all contribute to a cycle that co-opt youth social rebellion...the first step involves diluting radical fashion statements, next language is co-opted; sometimes the drugs of youth movements are co-opted and unfortunately they too are diluted...i think the mainstream disses' the youth movement to meet its own conformist needs... morten "skateboarding-is-not-a-crime" ender From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 07:14:12 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:09:35 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 09:53:00 EDT From: Lisa Eargle Subject: clothes at salvation army To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I too wear "hand me downs" and buy new clothes only when I can get them dirt cheap. I 'm not sure how my comments sounded, but I wasn't laughing at those who buy clothes at thrift shops. What I was commenting on was those people who think they've done something BIG by wearing second hand clothes. And next year, when the fad changes, the thought of wearing second hand clothes will disgust the same folks who blow and hiss about wearing them now. And these same people will protest when you say they're conformists -- but they are. We all are conformists, to some degree, no matter how much we may protest to the contrary. And conformity isn't as bad of a thing as it gets called. If there was no conformity, there'd be choas and we (humans) wouldn't have survived over time. (Example: What if there were no traffic rules on the highway?) But, enough from me for now. ----L.E. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 08:29:17 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:21:00 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:20:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Rudy ZALESAK Subject: Re: malls and more To: socgrad The co-optation of youth fashion and language is not new. my wife reminded me about the 70's show "The Mod Sqaud", with three hippies-turned-undercover cops; to quote the show, "One black, one white, one blonde!" But what is fashion for anyway? we have Veblen's answer that it is invidious display. Adorno responds to Veblen that that there is no pure case, that fashion is also about pleasure. Is there such a thing as ordinary, socially unmarked clothing? Perhaps shoes from PayLess or K-mart, instead of Doc Martens. What could we possibly wear that would not locate our social role? It is like imagining a private language. If you go into a mall and hear everyone speaking the same language, are they all foolish conformists? what if they use the same slang? Rudy My car is the same color as millions of others... and I don't have a special novelty license plate. BUT I do have a *bumper sticker* ! From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 08:36:38 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:28:06 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:21 EDT From: SCOTT BLAKE Subject: Conformity (was: malls and more) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I think that we may be missing at least par tof the point by focusing on the humor and pathos of individuals who buy expensive "grunge" clothing instead of "real" grunge clothing. We have here a bona fide sociological phenomenon in addition to the snicker fodder we have been talking about. Those of us who consider ourselves radical (for former radicals) remember (fondly?) our days of grunge (or punk, hippie, beatnik, or whatever). Many of us continue to live with cheap clothes, baggy pants, or whatever else is cheap down at second-hand stores. I suggest that the clothes and the appearance are not what is at issue here. Youth movements have very intereesting histories and are (at least possibly) good studies in the power of our society to co-opt and de-fuse potentially revolutionary groups. As I mentioned in my last post, I personally remember what it was like to watch my rebeliousness turned into nothing more than a fashion statement. Way back then (it wasn't really that long ago), we lashed out the only way we could (or thought we could). In a very short time, however, the media/culture split us into criminals/drug dealers and misguided/ cute teenagers. I'll never forget the day I saw a street vendor in Greenwich Village selling mass-printed t-shirts with the anarchy symbol on them (the same vendor also had bumper stickers and really cool fingerless gloves). We're all sociologists here, can we have some analysis? Or is it just veyr obvious that this is what happens to any movements and therefore we don't need to talk about it. I would like to think that while the punks were unique in some ways, we also reflected a larger society even as we opposed it. scott (Sorry about all the parentheses (I've been flashing back to my programming days (mostly LISP and FORTRAN (yucko)))) =:) From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 08:59:34 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:56:38 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov To: socgrad , Rudy ZALESAK Subject: Re[2]: malls and more Date: 13 Oct 94 11:50 EST Rudy writes: Is there such a thing as ordinary, socially unmarked clothing? Perhaps shoes from PayLess or K-mart, instead of Doc Martens. What could we possibly wear that would not locate our social role? Sorry, I buy my shoes from PayLess because they carry non-leather products, which marks a social role for me and others like me -- ethical vegetarians. I guess there's no way out of this argument! Barbara From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 10:16:09 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:08:21 -0700 for (5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA07270; Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: Bourdieu and RCT To: alina oh Alina, Glad you jumped into the fray. Part of the reason I like Bordieu is his desire to break down the "level of analysis" divide. If you take his field approach, you need to look both at the structure of a particular field [e.g. - academics] and at the immediate interests of particular individuals. You are right that habitus is a substitute for reasoning about each action, but the considerations which direct habitus, which put an actor on a vector, are a rational response to the indiduals position and the rules of the game. Many RCT proponents are happy to admit that individual actions may not be based on rational calculation, as long as they are consistent with what a rational agent would have choosen had she considered the decision. What RCT wants to accomplish is descriptive/ predictive validity using their normative assumptions about rational action. Translating from habitus to behavior explainable in terms of the rational pursuit of interest (at least given that there is limited information and some cost to seeking more information) is pretty straightforward. Bordieu, however, goes beyond this by examining the structural features which define what the players take to be their interests, thus grounding value maximizing in an empirical investigation of what values are actually pursued in a particular field. Bob Duniway University of Washington These are not my opinions. They are structurally determined. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 10:37:18 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:28:22 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: Re: Bourdieu and RCT To: alina oh On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, alina oh wrote: > > if each > "converted" to the paradigm which he believed provided the most powerful > lens, and adhered to the principles and commandments relevant for each, then > how are these debates to be resolved? in raising this question, I don't mean > to neglect the insights, the constructive aspects to be gleaned, though. David Wagner wrote an interesting chapter in a book on postmodernism and its critics edited by Seidman and Wagner. Wagner wanted to suggest a reason why theoretical ecclecticism was neither required of the individual, nor counter productive for a field. A thumbnail sketch of the argument goes something like: 1) theoretical perspectives are devices for simplifying reality so we can wrap our limited brains around the resulting simplification 2) all such simplifications leave something out 3) how important the information left out is depends on what one wants to do with the simplified understanding 4) A mechanism much like market competiton tends to promote the adoption of theoretical approaches in particular substantive domains which have shown themselves to be useful in past research efforts. 5) If a particular approach comes to dominate a particular field, results produced by that approach will be uncontraversial and generally receive little recognition, while failures of that approach will require explanation. 6) Since the theoretical approach leaves out information (probably a great deal of information) about the phenomena being studied, alternative simplifications may better account for the findings which the dominant theory fails to predict. 7) Whether the alternative theories are copied depends on how succesful they are at acheiving the aims of researchers. Essentially what Wagner argues is that theoretical approaches arre not right or wrong. They all leave things out. Therefore they are simply alternative tools, and researchers are free to choose the tool they think will do their job(s) best, always keeping in mind that there is competion and sticking with a less useful tool has a cost. Food for thought. Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 12:07:44 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:58:26 -0700 for From: jmaurer@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (John J. Maurer) Subject: statement to fashion To: BLAKE@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (SCOTT BLAKE) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:58:04 -0500 (CDT) > > > I agree with the fundamentals of michael's post about the conformity and > one-up-personship that now takes place in the "grunge" and "granola" > circles. I would simply like to point out that things were not always > like that and it is perhpas a better lesson in the power of society > to co-opt its rebels than one in the fallacy of group individualism. > > The "grunge" phenomenon has its roots in the punk movements of the late > 1970's and early 1980's. At the time, disaffected youths were practicing > random acts of vandalism and senseless violence in an effort to break out > of the molds imposed on them. They (we) wore the same cloths for weeks, we > smelled bad, we did drugs, we engaged in petty larceny, we called police > "pigs", we lashed out in an un-coordinated, stupid way. What was happening > then? How did we get from a cohort crying out for change in the only way > we knew to pseudo-yuppies competing for the most expensive combat nboots? There seems to be a number of possible answers to this question. One reason for why clothing statements exist at all, could be that dissenchanted youth have an outlet of expression that can't otherwise be stated (because of fear or suppresion). It seems awfully convenient to me that the established system we have takes a group of persons who are dissidents who are unified and recognizable to one another by the way they dress, and diffuses them and breaks down their recognition amongst eachother and turns the "statement" into fashion. Fashion has a way of taking new and possibly dangerous ideas and powdering it down. This seems to serve at least two major purposes" 1) it breaks down the unity of a dissident group 2) it then makes the rebellious outlet unavailable to those who created it and makes it unavailable to them by price jacking thus, showing the lower class the authority of elite groups Just some off the cuff thoughts. -John BTW: this discussion of fashion and what's "in" reminds me of one of the great sociologists of our times' writings on the human condition, Dr. Suess. Star-Bellied Sneetches really captures this subject IMHO. > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 12:22:59 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:21:22 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:19:27 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: Conformity (was: malls and more) To: SCOTT BLAKE On Thu, 13 Oct 1994, SCOTT BLAKE wrote: > here. Youth movements have very intereesting histories and are (at least > possibly) good studies in the power of our society to co-opt and de-fuse > potentially revolutionary groups. As I mentioned in my last post, I personally in lieu of "our" society, I would suggest just society in general. I'm old enough to remember the waning days of the Beatniks, I watched the hippie movement, and I've been watching the grunge movement, and I remember my aunts telling me about becoming Communists in the 30's because it was the thing to do for idealistic youth. There is much history and sociological research that has noted that people become more conservative as they become older. Does "society" as an external force coerce them into conventionality? or is it just as they grow older (especially start having kids of their own in which to invest) that their priorities change? I've talked with a lot of people who started out "revolutionary" and over beers we've asked ourselves what changed, and we always, in the conversations I've had, come down to the same thing--when we had children of our own, things seemed different. Then the stable, conventional values became more desirable and turning "society" topsy turvy for some ideal that we weren't sure would be worth it in the long run became less important. For myself, there are a lot of things I would like to see change--I have no use for public education for instance and have home schooled my last child until he had enough of a foundation tht I knew the public education system couldn't ruin him. He's now in high school, wearing his pants down past the crack in his ass and buying his flannel shirts from thrift stores. Fashion statement? yes, probably. But also just part of the process of growing up and testing identities. I used to think he was going to be a young Republican, my own little Alex Keaton, and then he took this turn. I suspect he will take several more before he starts selecting from the options in life that are available to him. Another thought...as I got older and became more aware of realities outside of my own, it occurred to me that it might be more than a little fatuous, conceited, arrogant, self-righteous, etc. of me to think that the version of society _I_ have in mind is The One that is right for everyone. So I became more interested in collaboration (not the same as co-option or even compromise) to work toward a society that could accommodate more than one reality, not just mine but other people's too. > remember what it was like to watch my rebeliousness turned into nothing more > than a fashion statement. Way back then (it wasn't really that long ago), we Your rebelliousness should still be your rebelliousness, regardless of what the fashion mongers do to capitalize on it. Don't allow yourself to be compromised OUT of something, anymore than you should be pressure INTO something. There is still a lot to oppose. Personally, I doubt that fashion has very much to do with actual opposition; fashion is just a way of advertising to others that you identify with something. But opposition comes in myriad forms which have absolutely nothing to do with dress, affiliations, tastes in music. I hope, Scott, that you leave yourself open to finding compatible souls who agree with you but, for some unrelated cultural reason may not wish to dress similarly to you. > lashed out the only way we could (or thought we could). In a very short time, > however, the media/culture split us into criminals/drug dealers and misguided/ > cute teenagers. I'll never forget the day I saw a street vendor in Greenwich > Village selling mass-printed t-shirts with the anarchy symbol on them (the > same vendor also had bumper stickers and really cool fingerless gloves). Yup. Remember the same thing happening to beatniks and hippies. All hippies were stoned out acidheads, in spite of those who lived in communes off of natural foods and no drugs. The hippie movement was very varied, and I'm sure the grunge movement is also. And talk about marketing!...peace symbols, tie tyed t-shirts, I can't get away from them even today!! I'm not too much in the mood for "sociology" right now, we'on fall break here. So I've offered you my participant-observations in the ethnographic cum qualitative tradition. > We're all sociologists here, can we have some analysis? Or is it just > veyr obvious that this is what happens to any movements and therefore we don't > need to talk about it. I would like to think that while the punks were unique > in some ways, we also reflected a larger society even as we opposed it. > > scott > > (Sorry about all the parentheses (I've been flashing back to my programming > days (mostly LISP and FORTRAN (yucko)))) =:) > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 12:24:21 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:22:33 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:22:28 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: Re[2]: malls and more To: blovitts@nsf.gov On 13 Oct 1994 blovitts@nsf.gov wrote: > Rudy writes: > > Is there such a thing as ordinary, socially unmarked clothing? > Perhaps shoes from PayLess or K-mart, > instead of Doc Martens. What could we possibly wear that would > not locate our social role? > > Sorry, I buy my shoes from PayLess because they > carry non-leather products, which marks a social > role for me and others like me -- ethical > vegetarians. I guess there's no way out of this > argument! I guess that means that those of us who prefer leather shoes because plastic/vinyl/canvas shoes don't give and pinch our feet, and because leather allows our skin to breathe better, are UNethical? From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 13:04:59 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:56:57 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 15:56:05 EST To: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re[4]: malls and more > Sorry, I buy my shoes from PayLess because they > carry non-leather products, which marks a social > role for me and others like me -- ethical > vegetarians. I guess there's no way out of this > argument! I guess that means that those of us who prefer leather shoes because plastic/vinyl/canvas shoes don't give and pinch our feet, and because leather allows our skin to breathe better, are UNethical? My comment was not about ethics but about social roles. But social roles, such as grunge, embody a group's ethics as much as abstaining from animal products. Both groups are using clothing to define their social roles. Barbara From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 13:41:08 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:36:27 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:27:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: Re: Graduate Student Defined To: Wanda Kosinski Wanda, The title of this list is socgrad meaning this is a list primarily for grad students in sociology. It is my understanding that in the past participants who were faculty or undergrad have been asked to leave. I am not trying to be exclusionary, I am just thinking that if this is a list for grad students, it should be that. The whole purpose of letting Young participate is to get some input that would be otherwise absent. But, at the same time, we want to keep the list to grad students, I assume. If this is not a list primarily for grad students, please explain the title to me. As far as nonparticipation goes, I find that participation almost always invites a richer academic experience. I also find that the nonparticipants are primarily women in class, and suspect therefore, that under the guise of shyness, there are probably more women nonparticipating on socgrad as well. The question of nonparticipants is therefore inescapably gender-bound. Prove to me that it's not. Also, recognizing this gender disparity, I hereby invite women to speak up. I can't help but address the whole subject of nonparticipation with cynicism, because of this pervasive disparity between genders (and also any others not encouraged in our society to speak up). Therefore, I am inclined to wonder about your point regarding nonparticipation, Wanda. Correct me if I have misrepresented you. Thanks mike From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 13:49:59 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:45:23 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 15:44:42 CDT From: alina oh To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: re:Bourdieu and RCT Bob - Now that the key terms of RBourdieuese" have been brought out into the fray, I sense weUve got some common ground here [for the beginnings of disagreement : ) ]. I agree with your starting definition of habitus: that it can be viewed as a set of internalized dispositions that mediate between social structures [understood as objective conditions] and practical activity [understood as inventive performances]; for Bourdieu, the habitus - once learned - leaves room for strategizing and conscious decision making but is acted out for the most part without much conscious reflection [like the way tennis players make their strokes during a match or the way a person manages his/her time]. Where I part ways though, is with the argument in favour of a simplified model of homo economicus. The concept of the habitus enables Bourdieu to develop an alternative conceptual language for behavioral patterns that do not reference explicit rules or norms, or represent the sum of individual acts -- I find this missing in most RCT stuff that I ve come across. I also agree with your initial definition of field - as it refers to both the totality of actors and organizations involved in an arena of social or cultural production and the dynamic relationships among them [e.g. an "intellectual field"] - but what seems to be missing from your interpretation is -- that the field concept also suggests a hierarchically structured arrangement of social relations within a space according to certain interests, power relations and hierarchies of value and judgement. Alina From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 14:33:58 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:29:53 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Duniway Subject: re:Bourdieu and RCT To: alina oh On Thu, 13 Oct 1994, alina oh wrote: [snip] > Where I part ways though, is with the argument in favour of a simplified > model of homo economicus. I'm suggesting (ala Wagner) that the utility of RCT simplification is not is its descriptive validity (clearly we don't think about all of our activity) but in the fact that sometimes models of behavior AS IF it were based on reasoning are useful. If habitus is shaped by strategic response to resources and interests, then activity will be quasi rational, and if you were interested in predicting it RCT might work quite well. > > The concept of the habitus enables Bourdieu to develop an alternative > conceptual language for behavioral patterns that do not reference explicit > rules or norms, or represent the sum of individual acts -- I find this > missing in most RCT stuff that I ve come across. I agree that one of Bourdieu's strengths is that he gets out of some conventional semantic traps by creating a new set of analytical terms. I also agree that RCT doesn't talk much about the reason for preferences, so they don't talk about norms very often (Yes I know Steve, some probably do, but I'm simplifying so I can wrap my brain around it.). Sometimes that is important, and in other circumstances it doesn't matter much. > > I also agree with your initial definition of field - as it refers to both the > totality of actors and organizations involved in an arena of social or > cultural production and the dynamic relationships among them [e.g. an > "intellectual field"] - but what seems to be missing from your > interpretation is -- that the field concept also suggests a hierarchically > structured arrangement of social relations within a space according to > certain interests, power relations and hierarchies of value and judgement. I think you may be confusing the concept with the empirical generalities in the fields Bourdieu studied. As I understand his use of the term, field is analogous to a shared understanding of the goals and rules of a particular game. I think by hierarchies of goals and judgements you are referring to the same thing I refer to as goals, so there is no disagreement there. But a field does not necessarily suggest hierarchical social and/or power relations. I'm being really nit picky here, because in most instances such hierarchies would be present, but they aren't logically necessary. What Bourdieu does is argue that the first thing you need to understand is the structure of the field, so you need to ascertain what, if any, power relations exist by figuring out what types of capital are relevant and who has it. I'm not trying to argue as much as clarify, since I think we aren't disagreeing, just analyzing his work slightly differently. Bob Duniway University of Washington From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 17:22:05 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:14:57 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 20:14 EDT From: "Jetaway Dave" Subject: Re: Graduate Student Defined To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU -- Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:27:10 -0500 (CDT) >As far as nonparticipation goes, I find that participation almost always >invites a richer academic experience. I also find that the >nonparticipants are primarily women in class, and suspect therefore, >that under the guise of shyness, there are probably more women >nonparticipating on socgrad as well. The question of nonparticipants is >therefore inescapably gender-bound. Prove to me that it's not. Also, >recognizing this gender disparity, I hereby invite women to speak up. It's tough to prove non-anything. How can we possibly tell if responces to this list is gender-biased if their is a differential rate of posting between gender? Jetaway (is she a she or is he a he?) Dave From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 17:53:00 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:48:37 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:48:36 -0700 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: Graduate Student Defined Yikes! Here's my attempt to cut off a fire before it gets going good. Socgrad has NEVER asked faculty or undergrads to unsubscribe. There was a discussion about this at one time, but it was decided that anyone who wanted to subscribe could do so unmolested. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 18:45:08 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 18:43:58 -0700 for Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 21:33:15 EDT From: Alan To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Being a somewhat early socgradder myself, Laura is right. We even took a vote and basically decided that if faculty members wanted to be on this list, there was no way of stopping them, and they can even be helpful given that an important latent function of this list is professional socialization and networking. We even have a faculty member here who has been encouraging new grad. students to sign up for the list. As for potentially "vindictive" faculty members, don't worry. If they don't give you the time of day in your dept., they are unlikely to get excited by this list either. By the way, is there a listserv command which could be used to discover who is on the list? Also, as of yet I have found one non-sociologist of religion at The University of New Mexico who is going to be in Albuquerque from Nov. 3 through Nov. 6. It would be nice if there other socgradders into religion lurking somewhere. If there is, come forward and we might plan something. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 13 18:46:20 1994 Thu, 13 Oct 1994 18:45:23 -0700 for From: halebsky@ssc.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 20:32:58 -0500 To: "socgrad@ucsd.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: RCT/game theory This is an open question on the subject of game theory. Can somebody give an example of a *major* social problem for which game theory provides a better explanation that any other theory. Beside naming the problem, can you tell us what the other theories are. For example, Keynesian economics (based, in part, on Marxist economics) provided a better explanation of the Great Depression than the one offerred by neoclassical economics. Steve Halebsky UW-Madison From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 05:24:16 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:18:45 -0700 for From: jmaurer@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (John J. Maurer) Subject: Bourdieu To: alinaoh@midway.uchicago.edu (alina oh) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:18:32 -0500 (CDT) Sorry to interrupt the current discussion of Bourdieu and RCT, but I like to know if anyone could suggest a text that lays out Bourdieu's theory of 'symbolic violence'. Thanks! John From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 06:00:38 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:56:26 -0700 for Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 08:49:01 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: RCT, game theory, and norms To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Bob- Good call! You predicted correctly that I would contest your comment that RCTs have not addressed norms "much". There's a huge and growing body of RCT literature on normative social control, including Heckathorn, Coleman, Hechter, Olsen, Ostrom, Oliver, and on and on. I know where that perception comes from, but it's really just "conventional wisdom" rather than an accurate portrayal of what's going on in the field. Steve (I think)- Game theory and game theoretic modeling (including transaction cost economics, which bears certain similarities) has been most effective at analyzing collective action problems, and the choice of boundaries between hierarchies and markets. -steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 06:43:47 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:39:41 -0700 for Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 09:39 EDT From: "Jetaway Dave" Subject: Re: RCT/game theory To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU DRAMA RIPPED FROM TODAY'S HEADLINES!! Got your attention? Good. As you may already know, the Nobel Prize for economics was awarded to John Nash, Princeton mathematician, for his development of the "Nash equilibrium," a key element in game theory. Here are a few quotes and context from The Philadelphia Inquirer (10/12/94). "Yesterday, Nash said that economics resides on the hazy borderline between true science and the so-called social sciences. "Anything that has to call itself a science, like Christian Science and the social sciences, is not really science," he said..." Grrrr. Grrrr. Much of the article contains background information on what game theory is, it's wide applicability to modeling everything from the behavior of couple's to multinational corporations to the behavior of nations. Sure it does. A co-winner, John C. Harsanyi stated: "Eventually it will give us a higher standard of living because we make better decisions." Gotta like that. Finally, and what caused me to burst out laughing. or was it crying? "Nash taught briefly at the Massachusettes Institute of Technology, but decided in 1959 that he was unable to continue teaching. Speaking of that period yesterday, Nash would say only that "people don't always make rational decisions."" What a hoot! Jetaway Dave From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 06:48:41 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:44:54 -0700 for Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons To: socgrad hello folks, after rereading that last post of mine, i feel i must point out that i didn't mean for it to sound as aggro as it does. also, i heard about people being asked to leave via word of mouth and i'll have to check into that. regarding the discussion on social movements and individualism, it sounds like defusing volitol (sp?) segments of the population is pretty good. We could also ponder how much people are looking for meaning in their lives in a culture which relies upon purchase to imbue meaning. in this scenario, ralph lauren's attempt at grunge will allow some kids (or adults) to feel that somehow they are involved in the forefront of society. i don't know; i'll have to bake this one awhile. as far as individuals go, only a couple of people come to mind. one who was completely unaware of cultural movements and liked country music. he wore outfits that were like something your father would wear, and he liked them. in fact, he never really seemed to consider how out of fashion he might have been. then when country became hip, he had more radio stations to listen to. i don't think he knew any of the words. he is now in a monastary. his almost complete oblivion to style and fashion freed him from making the choices that most are faced with;i.e punker/preppy, mainstream/alternative, short hair/long hair of course, no one suspected he might be a revolutionary, in fact the "revolutionaries" probably didn't think he was terribly "cool" because he happened to dress like somebody's father and not like he went to the thrift store. mike From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 06:50:59 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:47:16 -0700 for Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:46:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: Re: RCT/game theory To: Jetaway Dave i think dave, i agree with you. my impression of the nobel prize in economics is that they keep stuffing their heads farther up. of course, it might be hard to find documentation for that! mike From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 06:58:11 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:54:14 -0700 for Fri, 14 Oct 94 9:54:13 +1100 From: "LEE MARTIN" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:54:02 EDT Subject: "individuals" I agree with Laura Miller. It can be argued that the very word "individual" is a misnomer since, in fact, the self is essentially social in nature. As Mead and symbolic interactionists who followed him have pointed out, not only is there no pre-social self---we are not born with a self---but the self is created, maintained, and changed in a social, interpersonal location. There is no core self. Sociologists who unreflectively use the word "individual" without appreciating this may perpetuate the sacred cult of the individual (if I may bring Durkheim into this). There are political, material, and self-concept ramifications of believing in a core self that facilitate the continuation of forms of domination, self-delusion, and obsfucation of the structure and effects of social stratification and systematic social control mechanisms that operate in our society. Selves are social. "Individuals" are social. What implications for social change might this draw were Americans to wholeheartedly abandon their ideology of individualism? Lee Martin U. of Maryland From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 08:45:24 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:40:40 -0700 for Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 11:40 EDT From: "Pamela Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: another great article in soc. forum I read a bunch of the articles in Sociological Forum last night and wanted to put in my bid for James Davis. His article makes some great points and is REALLY funny. (Its very well written too) Its a quick read, so if people are looking for a good article besides the Molotch one, I'd give it top priority. Pam Paxton From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 14 08:48:52 1994 Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:47:21 -0700 for Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:47:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jiannbin Lee Shiao Subject: Re: Bourdieu To: Sociology Graduate Student List On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, John J. Maurer wrote: > Sorry to interrupt the current discussion of Bourdieu and RCT, but > I like to know if anyone could suggest a text that lays out Bourdieu's > theory of 'symbolic violence'. I'm not a real fan of Bourdieu's, but I have done some reading on him. I have a sense of what "symbolic violence" is from reading a particular text, but I'm not sure whether it "lays out" his concept, as much as it "illustrates its use", asserting that pedagogy is inherently an act of symbolic violence. Anyway, here's the reference: Bourdieu, Pierre. Reproduction in education, society, and culture / Pierre Bourdieu and Jean-Claude ... London ; Newbury Park, Calif. : Sage in association with Theory, Culture & Society, Dept. of Administrative and Social Studies, Teesside Polytechnic, 1990. tha j'ster Jiannbin "J" Lee Shiao Ph.D. Candidate, Department of Sociology Operator, Instructional and Collections Computing Facility University of California, Berkeley From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 14:06:22 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 14:05:03 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:04:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Phillip D. Moshoyannis" Subject: Conference information To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Does anyone know of a sociological conference to be held at Fordham University in the month of November? I heard about this very quickly from someone attending the New York State Sociological Association conference this past Friday and Saturday at Dowling College, Oakdale, NY. Any relevant information would be appreciated. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 17:09:05 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:08:03 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:06:36 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: electronic journal of sociology A while back I said that socgrad and PSN were the only lists I knew of dedicated specifically to sociology, with the sort-of-exception of the USENET group alt.sci.sociology. There's another sort-of-exception I didn't mention: the Electronic Journal of Sociology. The EJS is a real, peer-reviewed, electronically distributed sociology journal. There's only been one issue so far, and it is available for ftp (see details below). While there is an EJS list, the list is really just for announcements about the journal. I'm curious what people think about the potential for this and similar e-journals. My suspicion is that since EJS is not "real" (not printed on paper by a central publisher) that it is unlikely to garner much prestige. The medium is cheap, and the potential for similar journals is limited only by the number of people willing to work on them, serving as editors and reviewers. In any case, I've included below everything from the first issue of the journal except the articles (there are two). Submission guidelines are near the end. Michael THE ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF SOCIOLOGY (C) ISSN 1198 3655 ----------------------------------------------------- Volume 1, Number 1. Summer 1994 The windows version of the EJS (ejs1001.hlp.VOL1.001) is available from ftp.srv.ualberta.ca in the directory /pub/docs/e-journal. The WWW version is available at http://gpu.srv.ualberta.ca:8010 EDITOR Mike Sosteric Department of Sociology University of Alberta, Canada Edmonton, Alberta. Canada msosteri@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca CO-EDITOR Guy Germain Department of Sociology University of Alberta, Canada Edmonton, Alberta. Canada ggermain@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca EDITORIAL ADVISORY BOARD Ted Cohen Dave Odynak Sociology/Anthropology Department of Sociology Ohio Wesleyan University University of Alberta Delaware, Ohio. USA Edmonton, Alberta. Canada tfcohen@cc.owu.edu dodynak@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fran Collyer Rupen Pandya Department of Sociology Department of Sociology Macquarie University University of Regina NSW 2109, Australia Regina, Saskatchewan. Canada fcollyer@bunyip.bhs.mq.edu.au pandyaru@max.cc.uregina.ca Carl Cuneo Nikita Pokrovsky Department of Sociology Department of Sociology McMaster University Moscow State University Hamilton, Ontario. Canada Moscow Russia cuneo@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca nikita@theo.soc.msu.su Roger Deacon Timothy Ulrich Faculty of Education Department of Sociology University of Natal University of Nebraska Durban, South Africa Lincoln, NB. 68588-0324 deacon@mtb.unc.ac.za tulrich@unlinfo.unl.edu Laura Hargrave David V. Waller Department of Sociology Dep. of Sociology/Anthropology University of Alberta University of Texas Edmonton, Alberta. Canada Arlington, TX. USA userlstt@mts.ucs.ualberta.ca wallerd@utarlg.uta.edu Bradley Nash, Jr. Reference/Internet Services Blacksburg Area Branch Library Blacksburg, Virginia, USA bnash@leo.vsla.edu The Electronic Journal of Sociology is a refereed electronic journal. The EJS specializes in publishing articles and commentaries for those wishing to solicit rapid feedback about current or proposed projects, while retaining high standards of scholarly content. The EJS also publishes review essays, reviews of books, reviews of software, and direction statements. The EJS is published in a number of formats including a hypertext version. Authors should follow the EJS style guidelines when submitting papers for consideration. Authors do not need to concern themselves over the translation from plain text to hypertext. However, if you wish, you may explore a hypertext/hypermedia presentation. Hypertext presentations should be submitted in Rich Text Format (RTF). If you chose a hypertext presentation, keep the following guidelines in mind. The title page, abstract, main text, appendices, footnotes, and references must be linear. That is, do not compose hypertext links to the main sections of the text. Confine links to pop up definitions, sounds files and graphic images. Hypertext compositions must be submitted in uncompiled format. You may tar or zip the files to aid in transmission. Articles can be sent directly over the Internet in encoded form or mailed on a 3 1/2 inch disk. You may submit your article as a plain WP5.1 or Word file, or as a hypermedia document in Rich Text Format. Address all subscription requests, advertising, and submissions to Mike Sosteric Department of Sociology Editor University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2H4 Canada msosteri@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Guy Germain, Department of Sociology Co-editor, University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2H4 Canada ggermain@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca -------------------------------------------------------- 1. PROFESSIONAL AND TECHNICAL MOONLIGHTERS: Mauri P. Collins and Zane L. Berge KEYWORDS: MOONLIGHTERS; MULTIPLE JOB HOLDERS; SURVEY; USENET ABSTRACT This paper reviews some of the literature on multiple job holders to set the stage for reporting the results of an exploratory study conducted on the Internet involving "moonlighters." The foci of this research were to compare: 1) the Usenet sample demographically with the previously conducted United States Department of Labor survey, 2) the reasons professional, managerial and technical personnel moonlight with the reasons given by the general working population of the United States, 3) the order of reasons given by women and given by men, and 4) the order of reasons given by the foreign portion of the sample with those given by the United States respondents. The methodology is also of interest, being one of the first surveys completed using random Usenet groups. 2. WHERE IS NORTH AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE PRODUCTION HEADED: LOW-WAGE LEAN PRODUCTION Carl H.A. Dassbach KEYWORDS: TRANSNATIONAL; FORDISM; LEAN PRODUCTION; MEXICO ABSTRACT This paper examines two trends in the restructuring of North American automobile production during the last 20 years: the export of productive activities or globalization and the return of productive activities to core regions with the increasing implementation of "lean" or Japanese techniques. It argues that globalization failed and the trend towards globalization has diminished because globalization, as practiced in the late 1970s and 1980s, entailed the export of Fordist techniques. While acknowledging the superiority of lean production over Fordism, it is argued that lean techniques will not lead to the massive return of auto production to North America. Instead, the most important trend in the North American automobile industry over the next ten years will be between the two extremes of globalization and the return of production to North America and consist of the expansion of production in a low wage region, Mexico, but using lean techniques. ------------------------------------------------------- EJS STYLE GUIDELINES All target articles, commentaries, and responses must have 1) a short abstract, 2) an indexable title, 3) the authors' full name(s), institutional and E-mail address(es), and 4) 6-8 indexable keywords. Articles should not exceed 20 double spaced typed pages (excluding tables, figures, appendices, notes, and bibliography). Commentaries and responses should not exceed 8 double spaced typed pages. In addition, for target articles only 5) a list of potential commentators. FOOTNOTES, APPENDICES AND REFERENCES Footnotes should precede the appendices and references. Do not link footnotes, appendices, or references in a hypertext document. These should be part of the main text. Chodorow, N. (1989) _Feminism and Psychoanalysis._ Cambridge: Polity Press. Smith, D.H. (1975) `Voluntary Action and Voluntary Groups.' _Annual Review of Sociology,_ 1: 247-70. Reckman, B. (1979) `Carpentry: The Craft and Trade,' in A. Zimbalist (ed.) _Case Studies on the Labor Process._ New York: Monthly Review Press: 73-103. *note: Words surrounded by underscores (_italics_) are in italics. These marks are used here for illustration only. Word processed documents should use the italics option to format references. TITLE PAGE Title: Sub Title Name Department of Sociology University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta. Canada T6H-2H4 Internet: Address Bitnet: Address KEYWORDS: TABLES Number tables consecutively. Each table should have a number, a heading, and labels. Tables should appear in the main text of the document immediately following their reference in the text. When constructing tables, please do so as simply as possible. Do use tabs to align columns. Do not use spaces and do not use the special functions provided by word processing packages to construct tables. TABLE (Example) Table 1 Japanese Auto Industry Wages by Firm Size, 1983 (as a percentage of wages in the largest firms) Size of Number Number of Firm of Firms Employees Wages 4-9 31,972 31,972 42% 10-19 27,697 27,697 52% 20-29 27,301 27,301 54% 30-49 645 25,261 59% 50-99 689 47,644 61% 100-199 384 52,364 68% 200-299 151 36,812 64% 300-499 125 47,975 81% 500-999 119 83,525 83% 1000+ 95 318,139 100% Source: Adapted from Smitka 1991: 101. PEER REVIEW PROCESS The role of the peer assessor is to tell the academic publisher what he should do his best to publish, and how to publish it in the best possible form. The assessment provides for both publisher and author the critical book review before publication, while there is still time to take account of the criticisms. There is no one else who can do this job for us and we cannot publish without this assistance. And we would not want it any other way: what makes scholarly publishing ultimately so satisfying is the consciousness of being a part of a community which is engaged in a common endeavour. Ms. Prudence Tracy Senior Humanities Editor University of Toronto Press The EJS incorporates an extended peer review process. Target articles are first reviewed anonymously and recommendations are made to either 1) publish the paper as is, 2) publish pending revision, 3) request that the author revise and re-submit the paper, 4) or reject the paper. In the case of a request to revise and re-submit, the paper is treated as a new submission and enters the process at its beginning. Recommendations take the form of a 200 word summary and evaluation outlining the main argument of the submission, its location in a current discourse or research tradition, and an evaluation of its suitability for publication. Recommendations are submitted to members of The EJS (board and other reviewers) for consideration. In most cases, the recommendations of the anonymous reviewers are followed. However, members of The EJS who disagree strongly with a recommendation may request that the process be opened for further consideration. In this event, other members of The EJS may argue in favor or against inclusion of the submission. When reviewing articles, reviewers ask themselves the following questions. Is the research and analysis sound? Is the topic important (Is it too narrow? Does it lack vision?). Is it available in other forms (e.g., Ph.D. theses)? Reviewers are expected to reduce or eliminate sources of personal bias including, but not limited to, support for pet paradigms, support for currently fashionable paradigms, and methodological bias (e.g., support for quantitative over qualitative research or vice versa). Upon being accepted for publication, the author may or may not provide The EJS with a list of commentators and their E-mail addresses. If the author chooses this option, the final paper is published along with the commentaries. The primary benefit of having the paper published with commentary is that this compresses the academic discourse by providing an immediate and articulated response. COPYRIGHT NOTICE Authors of accepted manuscripts assign to The EJS the right to publish and distribute their text electronically and to archive and make it permanently retrievable electronically. The EJS does not accept works that have been published elsewhere. It is the author's sole responsibility to ensure that copyright has not been violated. CREDITS MSDOS, Windows, Word, and Microsoft are registered trademarks of Microsoft Corp. Mac and Macintosh are registered trademarks of Apple. WP51 and Word Perfect are registered trademarks of Word Perfect Corp. EJS logo by Carl Cuneo. EJS programming by Mike Sosteric. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 18:45:41 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:44:39 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:43:15 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: academic data management One of my biggest problems in writing papers (besides the writing itself) is organizing all the stuff I need -- notes, references, papers and books I'm drawing on. I'm hoping that one day all the source materials I need will be on-line, but even then I'll need to keep pointers to all of them, plus the references and notes and all. One place to start is with bibliographic managers. ProCite (about $130 academic price), which is available for both Macs and PCs, has a nice interface, but it is actually better for managing bibliographies than actual citations. EndNotePlus, which is (I think) just for Macs, handles citations well (at least under Microsoft Word 5.x), but is more expensive (about $160 academic price). WordRef is a ($40) shareware package for the Mac which is less elegant than the other two, utlizes Hypercard for the bibliographic database, handles references and citations using MSWord's MailMerge facility, and does not (I think) include ASR formatting (which you can add on yourself if you know BibTeX). Mac demos of all of these are available at info-mac archive sites. There are other programs designed specifically for academic writing. I have a feeling that it is difficult to find one that really fits your writing style, but you should be able to find one that is at least helpful (note: I haven't bought any of these: no $). Below are some notes from H-MAC, the History and Macintosh list (see the end for info on subscribing). These are for Macs, but I'm sure there are similar PC programs available. Michael --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 13:48:50 -0400 From: Chris Amirault Subject: Hypertext and Databases Mike Farmer asked about hypertext software, and Robert Perkins has asked about databases to replace filecards. There is one program that I've been using for both in my writing, and I now can't imagine writing without it. StorySpace, put out by Eastgate Systems, is a hypertext environment for the Mac (and, soon if not already, for the IBM). It allows you to create writing spaces that can include text, gfx, sounds, etc. and to build links between spaces, pieces of text, gfx, you name it. Furthermore, any space can be imbedded in any other up to some absurd depth level, and links can be made between objects at different levels. It has many powerful features that allow you to search, sort, and link spaces in ways that are difficult if not impossible with other programs I know about. While it is not built to be a "database" like FoxPro or FileMaker, for my reasearch purposes (sifting through hundreds of medical articles, taking various kinds of notes, maintaining several strands of argument at once) its flexibility makes it superior to other dedicated databases. At the same time, it does not provide fields for bibliographic information, etc., so you would need s/w for that (but, then again, neither does FileMaker). I used to do my notes in Word, then in FileMaker, and now I can't imagine not writing in StorySpace. The address for Eastgate Systems is 134 Main Street, Watertown MA 02172. The phone is 617.924.9044 or 800.562.1638. You can email Mark Bernstein, who is the chief engineer at Eastgate (and a very nice person), at eastgate@world.std.com. He'll be out of town for a week, so you may not hear from him right away. As for price, retail is $215, and it will go up to $245 in the next month or so. Academic discounts brings it to $125, which will be raised to $145 sometime soon, I'm told. October 1, Eastgate will release Storyspace for DOS. I was told that the next upgrade (StorySpace 2.0) will be a PowerPC version and won't be available for a year or so. Re: customer service, I have nothing but positive things to say about this company's support and honesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 20:32:44 -0500 From: "Mark A. Gring" Subject: Re: Databases I, too, have been plauged with finding a helpful way of keeping research notes, ideas, quotes, bibliographic material, etc. for my research. I really like Pro-Cite (Mac) for my bibliographic material because it can keep track of some quotes/notes for me and is so versatile in its format output--i.e., you name the style and it can create the appropriate format. This program doesn't help me, though with topical quotes and research ideas. Thus I've purchased NoteTaker from NoteTaker Software [PO Box 10270 Truckee, CA 96162, 916/587-7450] which allows me to combine outlines and quotes/ideas in one piece of software. I haven't yet "mastered" this software but I do find that it's quite helpful in forcing me to think of research projects thematically (I study and teach Rhetoric from a Speech Communication perspective) and begin to set them up in some sort of hierarchical order. The program is versatile enough, though, to allow the user to change the outline order and "play" with the format. I suggest you get ahold of Dan Wendin about this--a nice guy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 20:55:13 -0500 From: David Allan Snyder From: Penny Schine Gold Subject: databases I use Academic Data Manager (ADM). It is very simple to learn and to use, and its creator (Tom Marx) is very responsive in fixing any bugs one may run into. It's also very inexpensive (about $50). You can get information from Tom at . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Sep 1994 09:05:44 -0500 From: das3050@tamsun.tamu.edu Subject: Academic DataManager 2.5 Review As per Sharon Michalove's suggestion, here is her review of Academic DataManager 2.5. Newer members of H-Mac have not seen this review, and it is certainly of interest to those following the current Databases thread. --Dave Review of Academic DataManager 2.5 Sharon D. Michalove Department of History University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Finding the right bibliographic/note-taking program is a very individual decision. A great deal depends on the research style of the person involved. In my case, a long dependence on note cards meant that I wanted a program that would emulate long ingrained habits but give me the advantages of a computer. While Pro-Cite and Endnote have their advocates, neither of these programs emulated my particular note-taking style. I wanted to see actual notecards on the screen and manipulate them in the same way as those sitting in file boxes from earlier research projects. Then Academic DataManager (ADM) crossed my path. When you open up the program, you see cards with places for bibliographic information and for notes as well as key words, choices of reference type, three possible bibliographic formats (MLA, APA, and Turabian), an index function, and authority lists that can be customized. Academic DataManager will turn your cards into a bibliography as a word-processing document or it can be used in creating footnotes. The cards that have been created as examples can be selected and deleted as a group so you have an empty card file to start with. To create new bibliographies, just duplicate the card file and begin again. The manual is short and easy to understand. You can create your own reference types if the possibilities available to do not match the material you are working with. The usual Mac commands are there and your work is saved automatically. Subsets of data can be made by the selected references function and you can import data to ADM and export it to other bibliographic databases and database programs. The notes field is 30,000 characters long so note-taking limitations are not a problem. Of course everything can be cut and pasted into other Macintosh programs. Searching can be done in various ways, especially using the key words. I found for my own work that designating primary and secondary sources in the key words was very useful when the time came to sort for my bibliography. How did all this work for my own project? Well, there were the pros that I mentioned but there were also a few weak points. I had been using a similar program called Refcard (Hyperglot Software) that is no longer supported by that company. Refcard allowed me to do several things that ADM does not. First, the index numbers were assigned by the user. Because my system of note taking is to have a master card for each book or article and then individual note cards for each piece of information, this system was ideal. For example, if my first book was numbered 1, then the subsequent notes would be 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and so forth. Because this feature was not available in ADM, I used the ISBN field, which was all right as long as I didn't want to record ISBN numbers. In this regard, I would also have liked a card-copying function so that I could use my master card to create the basic new cards for my notes rather than having to copy and paste the information from each field onto my new card. I also had a problem with the selection function. I work on a Classic II computer with a small screen. The "selected" box does not appear on my screen, which is a definite disadvantae. This is a program that definitely benefits from being used on a computer with a 12" or 14" screen. That does not mean I could not use the selection function, merely that I had to resort to the pull-down menu or a dialog box every time I wanted to select or deselect a card. The final drawback for me was that text formats could not be transferred from ADM to my word-processing program. I would have liked a bibliographic format that used italics rather than underlining. After all, the only reason to use underlining is to indicate italics on a typewriter where italics are not available. With these criticisms in mind, would I still recommend ADM? Definitely. None of the problems I found were so serious as to make the program undesirable. While it is not as elegant as the now-defunct Refcard, it is an excellent choice. It is affordable, powerful, and comfortable to work with. Future versions can only improve an already excellent program. Technical support is free to registered users by e-mail, telephone, and snail mail. Academic DataManager 2.5 is available for $49.50 + $5.00 shipping from KalMarx Software, 4716 Fessenden St., NW, Washington, D.C. 20016 (e-mail: kalmarx@aol.com) but user group members can receive a back-to-school discount,through September, of $29.50 + shipping. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 20:32:13 -0500 From: draybeck@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Douglas Raybeck) Subject: Re: Databases Instead of utilizing database managers, I have my material (100s of pages of field notes from anthropological observations and journal entries) typed into my hard disk where I can search it with a text-search program. I use both Gopher which is simple and takes little disk space on my powerbook, and Sonar which is fast elegant and takes a lot of space. The advantage is that I can undertake complex boolean searches for narrow particulars that I may not have indexed or cross-referenced. I also find over the years that my research focus has altered and that some of the cross-referencing of my earlier notes is of little utility, while some of the connections I now wish to make are not reflected in my earlier organization. Finally, it is one hell of a lot easier than creating a database. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:23:04 -0500 From: FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu Subject: Re: QUERY: Search & Retrieval I bought software called "Data Collector" from Intellimation (P.O. Box 1530, Santa Barbara, CA 93116-1530, tel. (805) 968-2291. According to the authors, "The Data Collector program ebables [one] to organize and analyze qualitative data in an easy-to-use format. Its two components, the Data Collector stack and the Notes Collector stack, may be used together or independently." I haven't used this program yet, but perhaps it's something that might interest you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Josef Barton Subject: H-NETNEWS: Announcing H-MAC: an H-Net list for Macintosh users H-Mac, the H-Net list of the History and Macintosh Society, is now up and running. All Macintosh users in the humanities (not just historians) are welcome. To subscribe, send the following one-line email message to LISTSERV@MSU.EDU [LISTSERV@MSU on Bitnet]: SUBSCRIBE H-MAC Firstname Surname, Yourschool Example: subscribe H-Mac Ima Quadra, Cupertino U David A. Snyder, co-moderator, H-Mac das3050@tamsun.tamu.edu (Note that H-Mac uses MSU = Michigan State, unlike most H-Net lists, which use UICVM = U of Illinois-Chicago). From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 18:46:20 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:45:37 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 20:45:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie To: socgrad Hi Lisa, I agree with you here, and I will seek out this article as well. I find that the professors in my department think that "debunking" popular conceptions is beneath sociologists. They do not like to discuss this in their classes, and they don't encourage it at the disciplinary level. How can we show people the difference between popular "understandings" and real sociological knowledge and research without this tool? Melanie Lowery University of Arkansas On Thu, 13 Oct 1994, Lisa Eargle wrote: > Something you folks might want to read in addition to the sociological > Forum issue is "The Era of Sociology" by Albion Small in the July issue > of AJS. It's a reprint of an article he wrote in 1895, when he created the > journal. > > Sometimes I hear people remark "Oh, sociology is nothing but common sense! > Anyone can do what you guys are doing." It's interesting we still haven't > been able to distinguish in the public's mind within the last 100 years the > difference between Sociology (the research kind) and popular wisdom about > social phenomena. Hence, we have trouble explaining why our work is needed > or our usefulness. > > Since the phenomena we study is easily observed by all, it makes us more > vunerable, I suppose, to our legitimacy being questioned than that of other > disciplines. One of the things I think we can do is to emphasize how common > sense isn't always the right answer -- it just appears to be. So, we need to > examine the phenomenon to see what is going on. We need to get that message > to the public and one way we won't do that is to hide in the ivory tower. > > --Lisa Eargle > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 18:55:00 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:54:20 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 20:54:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: shoes To: blovitts@nsf.gov > > > Sorry, I buy my shoes from PayLess because they > carry non-leather products, which marks a social > role for me and others like me -- ethical > vegetarians. I guess there's no way out of this > argument! > > Barbara > And even the vegetarian/animals rights movement is constantly co-opted by this pseudo-hippie culture. Right now it's cool to be veg, but in a few years, I fear all these kids will forget why, since I find that they cannot even articulate a reason for it now. Very sad... Melanie U of A From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 19:04:57 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 19:02:49 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 94 21:56:09 EDT From: Alan Subject: debunking To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I disagree that the main problem is that Professors think that debunking common sense conceptions is below them. Open up almost any introductory soc. text written since Berger's Invitation to Soc. and you'll see something about debunking. The problem is we are very selective about what we debunk. Many social scientists do see it as beneath them to debunk particular worldviews if it means siding with another "political" worldview. If it means debunking something to prop up an "ivory tower" worldview (such as the nature and existence of religious authority in society) on the other hand, it is a different story. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 19:11:12 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 19:09:55 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 21:09:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: non-participation To: Michael Gibbons Michael, I just resubscribed to socgrad, so I missed the message before this, but I wanted to add something about non-participation and see if others have had these same experiences. At our university, when the women in class engage themselves in heated discussion, a professor is very likely to make some comment about how the women are too competitive or have a chip on our shoulder. If a man does the same, however, he is invited in to the office for a coffee and conversation. If this does not invite non-participation, I don't know what does. I suspect that most woman have heard this repeated time and time again, if not so explicitly, then implicitly. Once you are used to keeping quiet, it sometimes becomes hard to break that habit, even if you feel you have something to say. What I am wondering is if the computer-based forms of interaction allow women to slowly test the waters again in a non-threatening manner and gradually use this newly-found ability in the "real" world? Any comments? Studies you have read? Personal experiences? Melanie U of A > > As far as nonparticipation goes, I find that participation almost always > invites a richer academic experience. I also find that the > nonparticipants are primarily women in class, and suspect therefore, > that under the guise of shyness, there are probably more women > nonparticipating on socgrad as well. The question of nonparticipants is > therefore inescapably gender-bound. Prove to me that it's not. Also, > recognizing this gender disparity, I hereby invite women to speak up. > > I can't help but address the whole subject of nonparticipation with > cynicism, because of this pervasive disparity between genders (and also > any others not encouraged in our society to speak up). Therefore, I am > inclined to wonder about your point regarding nonparticipation, Wanda. > Correct me if I have misrepresented you. > > Thanks > mike > > > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 19:21:07 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 19:20:21 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 21:20:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: Re: your mail To: Michael Gibbons > > regarding the discussion on social movements and individualism, it sounds > like defusing volitol (sp?) segments of the population is pretty good. > We could also ponder how much people are looking for meaning in their > lives in a culture which relies upon purchase to imbue meaning. in this > scenario, ralph lauren's attempt at grunge will allow some kids (or > adults) to feel that somehow they are involved in the forefront of > society. i don't know; i'll have to bake this one awhile. I wanted to add one more thing here. Pardon all of the posts at once, but I am catching up... If people feel that they are joining a social movement of protest just by wearing clothing, does this actually take away from what could be meaningful participation in something? By wearing the t-shirt, in other words, they are doing all they feel they need to do? If so, this goes with the idea of diffusing possible dissidents of the future, and it seems to me that I see this a whole lot on our campus. Especially among the Polo Grunge groups, but not only within them... Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 19:28:23 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 19:27:39 -0700 for Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 21:27:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: teaching tools To: socgrad Does anyone out there know of any good reference material for using the internet/e-mail as a teaching tool? I have been employed by the social work department to teach information technology for human service workers, and I can't think of a better skill or tool than being familiar with the internet, but I can't seem to find anything through the usual channels for a guide. Any suggestions? Melanie U of Arkansas From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 16 20:03:08 1994 Sun, 16 Oct 1994 20:02:15 -0700 for From: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 20:02:12 -0700 To: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: academic data management Thanks for the software review. EndNote actually IS available for PCs, although I don't know the particulars. It is a bit more expensive than ProCite, but ProCite requires you to buy separate modules to connect to on-line databases. EndNote will download several formats out of the box. If these happen to be the ones you need, it works out cheaper than the ProCite system. There is a freeware extension to EndNote that allows it to download bibliographic information from MELVYL, the University of California's library server. This server is available through telnet to anyone on Internet, so with EndNote you should never have to type another bibliography again. EndNote is very well integrated with Microsoft Word, at least on the Mac version--don't know about the PC. EndNote comes up under the tool menu, so you don't have to switch back and forth between word processor and biblio program. I'm not a paid rep for EndNote, I just like it. I've heard that ProCite is also very good. Re note management: It seems to me that Hypercard solutions are way too slow, and ultimately unnecessary if you already have a good word processor. I can do all of that stuff in Word, and usually faster. The key here is to use a good Find command. Most of the top of the line word processors have fairly good search capabilities, but there are also aftermarket extensions which can give you as complex a search as you need. The advantage for me is that everything is in one program. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 08:46:39 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 08:43:34 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 11:43:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Chiquita Collins Subject: Re: academic data management To: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu EndNote is also very well integrated with Wordperfect, on the PC version. I agree it is very easy to switch back and forth between the word processing program and EndNote. Unfortunately, the only draw back is that it doesn't work in Windows. However, you can save your document and then transfer the text into Word (or whatever word processing program you are familiar with) once you're in Windows. EndNote is one of the best bibliographic programs and very easy to use. Procite is very complicated, and the help manual is not very useful. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 09:13:11 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:09:24 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 10:00 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: UHOBBIT@irishmvs.cc.nd.edu Subject: Popular Culture syllabi... I was wondering if anyone has ever taken or taught or just happens to have a syllabus (or syllabi) of a class on popular culture? Any help would be mucho appreciated... Dave brunsma Universdity of Notre Dame From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 09:39:02 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:30:50 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 11:18:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: Re: non-participation To: Melanie melanie, i am drawing heavily from my own perceptions and my wife's experiences in classrooms, but am certain that the differential gender reinforcement that has been noted in grade and high schools is quite prevalent at our universities as well. Many of our professors at my last university made a weighted attempt to increase female participation in classroom discussion, and even with such prompting, reversing the ingrained habits of "shyness" was difficult for them. The difference was most notable between the freshwomen and the senior women. Of course many chose to remain "womanly" and quiet, but many had become quite vocal. This contrasts reasonably starkly against my current university where it doesn't weem that professors are encouraged to draw women out of their prescribed shells. Of course this university does not stress class discussion nearly as heavily as my last one, and thus the quualitative difference in class discussion is quite striking in most areas, including this one. this does then bring up the correlative question that refers to the differential gender treatment itself. it is interesting to see how easily feminist perogatives are misunderstood and percieved as threatening, and this is no exception. when women dominate the classroom, they have some ax to grind, or some "chip on their shoulder" as you put it. but to observe the typical classroom, the rudeness of the male participants in their disregard for what women have to say, or even their existence in that academic setting at all is frightening. and of course this (typical) domination of discussion is simply class participation, not at all rude or pretentious. finally, i would hope that this electronic forum will help to draw out women thinkers who don't have to fear being interrupted or shouted over. only the occasionally obnoxious aftermath following her commentary. even the ability to get out a whole statement seems to be something regularly denied women students and so this ought to be helpful at the first level. sorry so long, michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 15:28:05 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 15:21:01 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 17:20:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: non-participation To: Michael Gibbons Michael, I absolutely agree with you. As a woman who has never been afraid to speak my mind before, and who also is not known as a "radical feminist," I have been surprised at the effect of my own university on me. I have been somewhat beaten down by the powers that be here, even though I HAVE to state that it is not the majority of the faculty that has contributed to this. I find myself sometimes apologizing if I think I have spoken too much or too aggressively. I don't say something at times if I feel that it could possibly be taken the wrong way. This is not what I expected in the academic world at all, but the message has been - stay quiet and cute and you will get far. I am not always comfortable with the fact that I have now somewhat internalized this. For how long? I don't know. Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 18:29:46 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 18:27:52 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 20:27:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: gender course To: socgrad Hello there. A professor of mine asked me to post (to avoid breaking the sacred rule of grad students only) and ask if anyone out there has seen a good, balanced book to use in a gender in society class. Any suggestions? Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 20:47:00 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 20:45:28 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:41:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: Re: non-participation To: Melanie Lowery melanie, FIGHT IT!! make it a point to speak every time in class. this is exactly the way political power is taken from people. why is it that folks our age are so commonly branded apathetic? it is precisely because the power to act has been shifted away, causing the same effect among young voters that we have here presented among women in academia. michael On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Melanie Lowery wrote: > > Michael, > > I absolutely agree with you. As a woman who has never been afraid to > speak my mind before, and who also is not known as a "radical feminist," > I have been surprised at the effect of my own university on me. I have > been somewhat beaten down by the powers that be here, even though I HAVE > to state that it is not the majority of the faculty that has > contributed to this. I find myself sometimes apologizing if I think I > have spoken too much or too aggressively. I don't say something at times > if I feel that it could possibly be taken the wrong way. This is not what > I expected in the academic world at all, but the message has been - stay > quiet and cute and you will get far. I am not always comfortable with the > fact that I have now somewhat internalized this. For how long? I don't > know. > > Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 20:56:46 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 20:55:41 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:55:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: non-participation To: Michael Gibbons On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Michael Gibbons wrote: > melanie, > > FIGHT IT!! make it a point to speak every time in class. this is exactly > the way political power is taken from people. why is it that folks our > age are so commonly branded apathetic? it is precisely because the power > to act has been shifted away, causing the same effect among young voters > that we have here presented among women in academia. > > michael Thanks, Michael. I am doing just that. Even when I feel the urge to hold back, I just go ahead and let it fly. As I said in my earlier post, it is not everyone here that creates such an openly hostile atmosphere, and even when I was in that situation, I spoke up. I paid for it, but I spoke my mind. That is one of the reasons I am still here, but that's another story. Do any of you see any blatant or not-so-blatant attempts to make women feel that if they speak up then it's because they have a "chip"? I want to make it clear that I do feel that each woman is responsible for making her own efforts. I feel little sympathy for those who only whine and do not act. I hope I am making sense, but it's late... Melanie ****************************************************************************** "The New Feminism emphasizes the importance of the 'women's point of view,' the Old Feminism believes in the primary importance of the human being." - Winifred Holtby, 1926 (from _Who Stole Feminism?_) ****************************************************************************** From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 17 21:37:10 1994 Mon, 17 Oct 1994 21:36:20 -0700 for Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 23:31:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrew Regan Subject: Re: non-participation To: Melanie Lowery Just a few comments in regards to Melanie's last post.... If there is any blatant or non-blatant efforts to squelch the voice of women in the classroom, it is done by those who are selfish and ignorant, and they probably don't have any willingness to learn. Sociologically speaking, those who are ignorant, selfish etc seem to be in positions of power. Just some useless ramblings in the midst of midterms!:) Andrew On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Melanie Lowery wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Michael Gibbons wrote: > > > melanie, > > > > FIGHT IT!! make it a point to speak every time in class. this is exactly > > the way political power is taken from people. why is it that folks our > > age are so commonly branded apathetic? it is precisely because the power > > to act has been shifted away, causing the same effect among young voters > > that we have here presented among women in academia. > > > > michael > > Thanks, Michael. I am doing just that. Even when I feel the urge to hold > back, I just go ahead and let it fly. As I said in my earlier post, it is > not everyone here that creates such an openly hostile atmosphere, and > even when I was in that situation, I spoke up. I paid for it, but I spoke > my mind. That is one of the reasons I am still here, but that's another > story. > > Do any of you see any blatant or not-so-blatant attempts to make women > feel that if they speak up then it's because they have a "chip"? > I want to make it clear that I do feel that each woman is responsible for > making her own efforts. I feel little sympathy for those who only whine > and do not act. I hope I am making sense, but it's late... > > > Melanie > > > ****************************************************************************** > "The New Feminism emphasizes the importance of the 'women's point of > view,' the Old Feminism believes in the primary importance of the human > being." - Winifred Holtby, 1926 (from _Who Stole Feminism?_) > ****************************************************************************** From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 05:37:06 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 05:35:05 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 06:35:02 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: academic data management To: Michael Lichter I've never seen a bibliographic manager? What is it and how is it different from using a database? or Word Perfect's List of Authorities? From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 06:49:25 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 06:47:26 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 09:18:54 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: Beware of group-think! To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Tom Robbins wrote in _another roadside attraction_, "real courage is risking one's cliches." As sociologists, we pride ourselves as "debunkers" of popular myths and ideological dogmas, unveiling the social processes which underwrite them. Kudos to us. BUT, we often turn around and replace those myths and dogmas with new myths and dogmas, which, since they are not the product of diffuse historical processes but rather particular political agendas, are generally more superficial and less sophisticated than the ones we debunked. Shame on us. In reference to the posts on our role as debunkers: critical analysis is a valuable *step* toward refining our understandings, but a counterproductive one if used as a means to discard and ignore bodies of thought. The more difficult challenge when faced with an idea (e.g., functionalism, marxism, etc) is to extract that which is of value from each, and synthesize the threads. Whether in the production of knowledge or the production of social justice, we must either make history our ally, or be defeated by it. In reference to the discouragement of female participation in grad programs: I'm sure that there is some legitimacy to what people are saying, but there are also other things going on which are being ignored in the zeal of identifying villainry. For instance, early gender socialization contributes to differential participation, and *everyone* who participates in ways which do not perfectly agree with the prof. receives some discouragement. Just for the sake of devil's advocacy (and thus as a buffer against group-think), let me suggest that many people feel stifled, offended, and put-down in classrooms, and that everyone of them would like to attribute it to something which makes it seem less like a personal insult. This fact may cause some *exaggeration* (*not* fabrication) of victim's perceptions of gender-bias in the classroom. The real point is, let's avoid certainties in favor of contemplation. -steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 07:09:11 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:07:11 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:06:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael A. Dover" To: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: academic data management Being from Ann Arbor MI, home of the library science prof who wrote Procite, I thought I'd add me two bits. Procite's dos menus can be confusing sometimes, but it is the most powerful of the programs and consisently rated best by independent tests. Personal Bibliographic Software Inc. of Ann Arbor, publisher of Procite, also publishes Bibliolink for Windows, which transforms downloaded Dialog, BRS and Silver Platter CD-Rom files (including socio-file, econ-list, social work research and abstracts, ageline, psych-it and psych-books, etc.) into procite files. Procite will have a windows version soon, and exports to word and windows dos formats now. For an alternative that works within wordperfect, look into WPCitation, written down in Ohio. On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, rebel palm aitchison wrote: > I've never seen a bibliographic manager? What is it and how is it > different from using a database? or Word Perfect's List of Authorities? > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 08:46:43 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:38:26 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:38:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: Beware of group-think! To: Steve Harvey Steve, I have to say that I agree with you here. I do know that people of all kinds, especially those who feel they belong to an injured group of some kind (women, minorities) tend to filter things through that victimization lens a little too much sometimes. I am probably as guilty as many others in that at times, although I don't perceive myself to do such things very often. Some of my personal incidents were spelled out quite clearly for me, however, so I do not feel that such incidents are always wrongly-interpreted. We can't overlook the fact that sometimes, people really DO put down women, minorities, AND men. On the other hand, we cannot always assume that this is happening, and it is interesting to deal with the different definitions of the same situations that we find in classrooms, boardrooms, etc. Melanie ****************************************************************************** "The New Feminism emphasizes the importance of the 'women's point of view,' the Old Feminism believes in the primary importance of the human being." - Winifred Holtby, 1926 (from _Who Stole Feminism?_) ****************************************************************************** ON OCt. 17, Steve Harvey said: > In reference to the discouragement of female participation in grad programs: > I'm sure that there is some legitimacy to what people are saying, but there are > also other things going on which are being ignored in the zeal of identifying > villainry. For instance, early gender socialization contributes to differential > participation, and *everyone* who participates in ways which do not perfectly > agree with the prof. receives some discouragement. Just for the sake of devil's > advocacy (and thus as a buffer against group-think), let me suggest that many > people feel stifled, offended, and put-down in classrooms, and that everyone of > them would like to attribute it to something which makes it seem less like a > personal insult. This fact may cause some *exaggeration* (*not* fabrication) of > victim's perceptions of gender-bias in the classroom. > > The real point is, let's avoid certainties in favor of contemplation. > > -steve > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 08:56:33 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:53:37 -0700 for by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V4.3-11 #5489) id <01HIF3PM09KG9EHCM7@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:53:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:53:28 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU From: 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Christopher Gunn) Subject: Re: academic data management To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU >I've never seen a bibliographic manager? What is it and how is it >different from using a database? or Word Perfect's List of Authorities? Well, a program like EndNote (for Macs, DOS and, maybe, someday, in the far distant future, Windows) lets you create a bibliography in the form of a sort of structured database. Then, when you're writing a document, you can select a reference from a reference window, and paste into your document what is in effect a coded pointer back into the reference database (something like [Durkheim, 1977, #241], where #xxx is the database reference number). Then, you post-process the document you've written with the program so that the coded reference [Durkheim, 1977, #241] gets turned into (Durkheim, 1977) (if you're using APA style or an analogous one) and a reference of the type 'Emile Durkheim, _The Elementary Forms....' gets appended as a bibliography. This would be no particular big deal unless (a) you have a zillion references and emit monster bibliographies, or (b) need to use the ability of the programs to do stylistic variants. EndNote claims the ability to do references and bibliographies in the styles of 250+ journals or something. There are people here at my day job (in computational chemistry) who would KILL YOU if you tried to take away their EndNote. But, they *do* have zillions of references and have to emit papers in particularly 'terse' bibliographic styles (Am. Chem. Soc., _Science_, etc.). APA style and its allies is a much looser, more naturalistic, manuscript-writing-oriented way of handling references. If you only do one style (or a few, in the APA-ish category), and typically have reference counts in the low dozens per paper, a bibliographic manager would probably be a time-*waster* rather than a time-saver, particularly if you had to enter all the data by hand. (If you already have the material in a database or structured list (e.g., Unix REFER format), you could probably import it into a reference manager without too much trouble.) My wife, who's in social psychology, makes fun of me for using EndNote and considers it techno- geekishness (and a time-waster). I like it and think that it's already cost- and time-effective. The big players in the Mac world (with which I am most familiar) are EndNote and Pro Cite. The orientation of Pro Cite has always been bibliography management _per se_ (in a library-science sense) rather than note management for paper-writing, although it will apparently do the latter. It used to be that Pro Cite was a lot more expensive, but now I think 'academic' pricing for both is in the $150-200 range, with Pro Cite maybe cheaper. I used to have a booklet with pricing information in it but I can't lay my hands on it. College bookstores would know. EndNote has a 'plug-in module' that's compatible with Mac Microsoft Word 5.1, i.e., it can function (sort of) like a native set of Word commands. Compatiblity with Mac Word 6 (ack!!) and presumably Windows Word 6 eventually is promised. The plug-in module for 5.1 *is* convenient, although the combination is sluggish on 68030-class Macs. I don't know whether to recommend EndNote strongly or not. I think it's awfully expensive for software that's really in what used to be the Mac 'desk accessory' class, and there really isn't a unique student discount. Their 'academic' price is something like 75% of the 'list' price. It's not that hard to understand the logic behind that, I guess, although I'm not willing to endorse it. Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 09:41:37 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:37:43 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:37:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Mid-South Meeting To: socgrad Is anyone going to the meeting in Lafayette at the end of this month? ****************************************************************************** "The New Feminism emphasizes the importance of the 'women's point of view,' the Old Feminism believes in the primary importance of the human being." - Winifred Holtby, 1926 (from _Who Stole Feminism?_) ****************************************************************************** From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 09:42:01 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:36:58 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:36:54 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: academic data management To: "Michael A. Dover" Okay, but what is it for? I.e. what problem does it solve? Is it just for keeping track of your bibligraphic references? If so, how is it different than a data base? Or I use Word Perfect, set my biblios up as secondary merge files and sort on that. Word perfect's List of Authorities, although designed for attorneys, could also be used that way. So what does a bibliographic manager do that's different? On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Michael A. Dover wrote: > Being from Ann Arbor MI, home of the library science prof who wrote > Procite, I thought I'd add me two bits. Procite's dos menus can be > confusing sometimes, but it is the most powerful of the programs and > consisently rated best by independent tests. Personal Bibliographic > Software Inc. of Ann Arbor, publisher of Procite, also publishes > Bibliolink for Windows, which transforms downloaded Dialog, BRS and > Silver Platter CD-Rom files (including socio-file, econ-list, social work > research and abstracts, ageline, psych-it and psych-books, etc.) into > procite files. Procite will have a windows version soon, and exports to > word and windows dos formats now. For an alternative that works within > wordperfect, look into WPCitation, written down in Ohio. > > On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, rebel palm aitchison wrote: > > > I've never seen a bibliographic manager? What is it and how is it > > different from using a database? or Word Perfect's List of Authorities? > > > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 09:48:37 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:45:19 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:45:02 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: "individuals" To: LEE MARTIN Then I guess we're all nothing more than Borg. Hugh's to you, Lee! On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, LEE MARTIN wrote: > I agree with Laura Miller. It can be argued that the very word > "individual" is a misnomer since, in fact, the self is essentially > social in nature. As Mead and symbolic interactionists who followed > him have pointed out, not only is there no pre-social self---we are > not born with a self---but the self is created, maintained, and > changed in a social, interpersonal location. There is no core self. > Sociologists who unreflectively use the word "individual" without > appreciating this may perpetuate the sacred cult of the individual > (if I may bring Durkheim into this). There are political, material, > and self-concept ramifications of believing in a core self that > facilitate the continuation of forms of domination, self-delusion, > and obsfucation of the structure and effects of social stratification > and systematic social control mechanisms that operate in our society. > > Selves are social. "Individuals" are social. What implications for > social change might this draw were Americans to wholeheartedly > abandon their ideology of individualism? > > Lee Martin > U. of Maryland > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 10:19:29 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:11:12 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 13:10:12 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: "Popular Sociology(?)" Socgraders -- With all the previous discussion of going "public" with sociology, the occasion of archconservative Charles Murray's new book, _The Bell Curve_ seems like a good topic for discussion on Socgrad -- not just the "popular" nature of the book, but its controversial content. I realize that few, if any, Socgradders have had a chance to read it (myself included), but reviews of it have appeared in the New York Times Magazine and it is the cover story of this week's Newsweek. It has also been mentioned on a few of the Sunday morning political news shows. So, Socgradders, how about a good sociological discussion of the book/discussion of the book's sociology/social science -- and even biology? For those who are unfamiliar with the book, Murray essentially argues that we have arrived at a point in society in which the social barriers that inhibited bright people from advancing and advanced dim-wits have fallen and now bright people (i.e., middle and upper classes) are breeding with bright people and dumb people (lower classes) are breeding with dumb people thereby creating two different genetic classes based on intelligence and that there is little that can be done for the "dumb," which leads him to the conclusion (one among many) that we should get rid of things like remedial education because it won't help. -- This is just a brief sample of the "wisdom" contained in the book. Discuss, argue, critique, snipe away .... Barbara From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 13:20:14 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 13:12:24 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 13:10:58 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: Beware of group-think! On Oct 18, 9:18am, Steve Harvey wrote: > them. Kudos to us. BUT, we often turn around and replace those myths and dogmas > with new myths and dogmas, which, since they are not the product of diffuse > historical processes but rather particular political agendas, are generally > more superficial and less sophisticated than the ones we debunked. Shame on us. Are you sure this isn't just one of YOUR cliches, Steve? Show us. Sounds to me like this is just another example of how you devalue named conscious action in favor of unnamed conscious action (that is, if one of us did it, it's bad, but if somebody else who we can't point a finger at because we're not sure who they were did it, it's OK). > In reference to the discouragement of female participation in grad programs: > I'm sure that there is some legitimacy to what people are saying, but there are > also other things going on which are being ignored in the zeal of identifying > villainry. For instance, early gender socialization contributes to differential > participation, and *everyone* who participates in ways which do not perfectly > agree with the prof. receives some discouragement. Just for the sake of devil's Discouragement to some is encouragement to others; meanings are gendered (that's the "I've got to run" reply). > The real point is, let's avoid certainties in favor of contemplation. I can go with "let's avoid being too certain of our certainties," but "contemplation"? What do you have in mind? Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 14:03:32 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 14:01:25 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 16:49:30 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: responses to Melanie and Michael To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Hi Melanie. Just wanted to say "thanks" for the gentle response. I often expect (and often receive) angry responses to posts of this nature, for the same reason that sociologists in general often receive angry responses from well-socialized lay- folk who take umbrage at having their "cliches challenged" (to continue with the Tom Robbins quote). It's nice to have that expectation dashed now and then! And, of course, I don't mean to be denying the reality of descrimination. Only to guard against reifying it and fetishizing it. Cheers, Steve Michael, Your distinction between "named" and "unnamed" misses the increasing social systemicness that accompanies increases in histor- ical range and geographical diffusion. In other words, an idea that I produce alone (an inherently meaningless notion, but one which clumsily refers to an idea which is less deeply rooted in previous ideas) is the product of a single mind, held to the checks one mind can offer. When I discuss it with another person, it is molded and refined. As that process is carried out across generations and cultures, the idea grows in sophistication (or simply dies out). That it grows in sophistication does not make it "right" or "good", but it does make it worthy of a certain kind of respect. For instance, I have no special love of Christianity, but it is an institution which has been elaborated over many centuries, in many ways, by many people, and it *is* very sophisticated. I did not mean to imply (and I think successfully did *not* imply) that it is impossible to innovate, or reform or modify old ideas. I meant to say, rather, that there is a "genius" embedded in the social production of knowledge that exceeds the genius of individual minds (just as there is a genius in social systems that exceeds our ability to plan one from scratch), and that recogni- tion of this fact needs to be factored into our endeavors. Is it my cliche? Maybe. And I'm delighted to challenge it. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 14:41:40 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 14:38:58 -0700 for Subject: Re: academic data management To: rpalm@unm.edu (rebel palm aitchison) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 17:38:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen T Farquharson I have used EndNote and am not as enthusiastic as some. I think the problem is that the place I work at has recently implemented its use as as library database. We have a large number of entries, which are coded with multiple keywords and I've found that it's difficult to find entries after they've been coded. This is going to sound very anti-technology (which I'm not!), but I almost think a simple alphabetical (or topical) list is easier to manage, especially if you aren't particularly concerned with format. Karen From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 15:20:26 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 15:13:31 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 17:48:58 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: "depth" of knowledge, continued To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Since, in my last post, I didn't use the example that is most illustrative of what I mean, I thought I would do so now. There is one interpretation of Frankfurt School theory which maintains that bourgeois science is *merely* an ideological legitimation of exploitation. Indeed, an ideological legitimation of exploitation *is* embedded in it, but it is folly to say that it is *merely* so. It is, rather, a very sophisticated package which includes tools and models and insights which far exceed anything that could be devised by one brilliant theorist attempting to create a humanistic science. The paradox is, the more theorists attempt to break with that package, the more of its sophistication they loose; the unwillingness to challenge it at all, conversely, relegates us to the "iron cage" of functional rationality, and the resultant relinquishment of substantive rationality (see Mannheim for a discussion of the mutual exclusivity of the two). I'm not making a moral call that one is "good" and one is "bad": I'm merely identifying the trade-off between the two. Examples abound. So, in my original post, I pointed out that this trade-off exists, and that when young ideas become dogma, they carry both the liability of stifling fresh thought *and* the liability of being less well developed. In a broader sense, they remain an asset, since dialogue between the two camps is likely to ensue somewhere, somehow. But that benefit is in spite of, rather than because of, the adamance of the individual adherents. I prefer, and encourage, a more intentional embrace and facilitation of that process by always placing fresh ideas into an immediate dialogue with established ones. This may sound like what we always do, but not really. We tend, more often, to embrace whatever is "in", and to pooh pooh whatever has been locally discredited. At least, I've seen an amazing amount of that in my young career. -steve From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 17:40:36 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 17:38:21 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 20:30:50 EDT From: Marni Hancock Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA Subject: BIBLIOGRAPHIC SOFTWARE To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Melanie, to answer your latest question, the idea is that you type in the information for each bibliographic entry you use one time only. With each re-use you simply select it from your "data base" and ask your computer to write it out in whatever style (for whatever journal you plan to submit the article) you need. Some of the programs also provide space for entering an abstract so you can do a quick review of the article's or book's content. In addition, you can enter key words or cues which will allow you to "sort" out of your data base everything you ever entered into it that discussed--oh, say, the price of tea in China and it's determinants. I am certain there are other, more sophisticated uses, but these are the basics. OK? Marni Hancock SOCAW059@EMUVM1.CC.EMORY.EDU From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 17:46:26 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 17:44:51 -0700 for From: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 17:12:19 -0700 To: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu, rpalm@unm.edu Subject: Re: academic data management I've never seen a bibliographic manager? What is it and how is it different from using a database? or Word Perfect's List of Authorities? ========================================================== It IS a database that's designed to hold bibliographies. It's also designed so that you put a marker in your text as you type, and the program remembers what citation goes with that marker. When you print out your final version, the program goes through and inserts the proper citation or footnote in whatever format you choose, and then types up a bibliography for you. It saves a LOT of typing. If you can get your biblio program to talk to your library server, you'll never have to type another reference, citation, or bibliographic entry ever again. It's worth asking around at the library to see if anyone there knows what's up. If not, you can still get these programs to talk to library servers at other schools that are on the internet. I get EndNote to download citations from MELVYL all the time. Although the librarians here think that Procite is the campus standard, I think endnote works as well if not better. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 18:00:44 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 17:59:02 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 17:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: PORNADA Subject: Re: problem To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU to socgradders, I've run into a problem accessing ASA. I've tried to reach it through the address "ASA@GWUVM" is this not the address? Any help would be greatly appreciated if their E-mail address has changed. thanks, greg From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 20:54:24 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 20:52:31 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:48:28 -0500 From: whitaker@ssc.wisc.edu (Julie Whitaker) To: "socgrad@ucsd.edu"@ssc.wisc.edu Subject: Total Quality Management Can anyone suggest some good (Marxist preferably) work on the issue of Total Quality Management as it relates to the auto industry or any other industry? I know there's quite a bit written, but I am looking for a critical analysis from the perspective of labor. I am trying to construct a theoretical paper on alienation of workers, but would like to see what type of stuff has been done first. Thanks Julie Whitaker University of WI, Madison From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 21:32:41 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 21:29:49 -0700 for Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 23:21:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Gibbons Subject: school colors To: socgrad hello folks i've just finished watching the PBS show SCHOOL COLORS, and found it to be a great production. It did a very good job showing just how pervasive problems of race are in our country. so often problems like that are easy to ignore since we live in largely segregated worlds that it was great to see the tensions and the pressures laid out for all to see. very good. on more than one occasion you could see that the school's faculty were operating on an entirely different set of assumptions from an entirely different world. the sad thing is there seems to be no answers to the questions this school faces, which is sad because they mirror the problems our society faces. what answers are there? it seems there are none. what impressions did this particular movie leave on other socgradders? From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 18 22:47:06 1994 Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:45:49 -0700 for From: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:45:41 -0700 To: blovitts@nsf.gov, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: "Popular Sociology(?)" For those who are unfamiliar with the book, Murray essentially argues that we have arrived at a point in society in which the social barriers that inhibited bright people from advancing and advanced dim-wits have fallen and now bright people (i.e., middle and upper classes) are breeding with bright people and dumb people (lower classes) are breeding with dumb people thereby creating two different genetic classes based on intelligence and that there is little that can be done for the "dumb," which leads him to the conclusion (one among many) that we should get rid of things like remedial education because it won't help. -- This is just a brief sample of the "wisdom" contained in the book. ============================================= Is there anyone here who buys that intelligence is genetically inherited? I haven't read the new book, but from his earlier work I know that Murray is a master rhetorician. It seems imperative that we arm ourself with the arguments to refute him. Is there anyone here with expertise in that field who can help out with this project? From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 00:07:12 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 00:05:40 -0700 for (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 19 Oct 1994 20:05:27 +1300 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: brian.harmer@vuw.ac.nz (Brian Harmer) Subject: Re: Total Quality Management Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 07:05:29 GMT >I am trying to construct a theoretical paper on alienation of workers, but >would like to see what type of stuff has been done first. I am not sure if I am on target or not but try: Webster, F. & Robins, K. (1986). Information technology: A Luddite analysis. Norwood, NJ: Ablex Brian M Harmer I Personal mission statment: Department of Communication Studies I Victoria University of Wellington I to retain most of my marbles brian.harmer@vuw.ac.nz I From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 01:15:00 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 01:10:12 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 01:09:50 PDT From: Mailer-Daemon@weber.sscnet.ucla.edu (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown To: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 Host ucs.edu not found for mailer ddn. 550 ... Host unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- From: lichter@nicco (Michael Lichter) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 01:08:24 +0000 To: socgrad@ucs.edu Subject: Re: "Popular Sociology(?)" This is most interpretable if you have a background in Foss-ian thought, but hopefully those of you without the experience will find this at least mildly amusing and thought-provoking. Michael From: "Daniel A. Foss" Subject: Charles Murray's domain assumptions and the egalitarian alternative Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 05:17:04 -0600 X-Comment: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK /* warning...difficult both conceptually and in extent of unconventionality */ I have read the New York Times Magazine cover story on Charles Murray and his forthcoming book, The Bell Curve, with R. Herrnstein, mentioned by Talmadge Wright and others. I propose here to turn the underlying assumptions of the hereditarian-elitist-sociobiological doctrine inside out, in order to posit alternative assumptions whereby we may break decisively with those aspects of Intelligence ideology, eo ipso elitist however stated; then counterpose to it a set of assumptions and analyses cetering upon the proposition that *control of the definition of the cognitive is invariably political*, the most political aspect of any class or elsewise stratified society, after the control of the means of violence guaranteeing social hierarchy itself: It is the strategic control of the definition of the cognitive which ensures or at minimum facilitates the hierarchical principle's seeming Just and Reasonable, once the means of violence ensure hierarchy's preservation barring a cost in blood most likely unacceptable to the victims. It's best to dispense with the hopelessly contaminated construct of Intelli- gence; the underlying notions are found in the dichotomy or binary opposition of Smartness and Stupidity. The intimate association between Smartness/Stupid- ity and hierarchy is easily illustrated in common speech: A child who is disobediently disrespectful of Authority Figures is said to be "acting smart." Similarly, the bully accosts the victim, perhaps grabbing the latter's shirt and slamming him/her against the wall, snarling, "Ya tryin' ta get *smart* wid me? Ya tryin' ta get *wise*?" Gangsters, among themselves, have adopted the self-styled "wiseguys" in signalling defiance of official legality. Notable among the cliches wherein the word *smart* occurs is "smart as a whip," which suggests that the person or child so characterized either presently or in the future occupies, or will, a hierarchically superior position wherefrom the infliction of pain upon those Inferior to him/her may in the Nature Of Things occur. Analogues may be found in any and all class/hierarchicalized societies. Mind is the province of the ruling class (or its clerical component where it appears doubleheaded, the other head comprising the warrior component, such that e.g., both William I of England, 1066-1087, and William II, 1087-1100, could not sign their names). The Chinese sage Mencius, contemporary of Aristotle, said: "Some work with their minds and rule others. "Others work with their hands and are ruled by others. "Without the Superior Man there would be none to govern the peasants. "Without the peasants, there would be none to feed the Superior Man." The above nicely illustrated the functionalist streak in Confucianism, to be developed much further by Xunzi (d. 261 BC). The Classical Greeks were meanwhile so prone to assume the necessity of the citizen fully participating in the polity to live without working that the forced-labour system permitting it could go without saying, except in rationalizing Natural Slavery. Both Classical Greeks and Classical Chinese had highly developed definitions of the cognitive, in both civilizations inseparable from the cultivation of martial arts. Greek youth passed through the ephebe age-grade, which under the super- vision of the gymnarch learned to wrestle naked in the gymnasium, contributory to prowess in war as in love in later life; preparatory education, also, emphasized the study and even memorization of canonical texts commencing with the Homeric Epics. The six subjects studied in the Chinese Confucian system, devised by Confucius himself, included archery, charioteering, elite appropri- ate behaviour and rituals, and music; the study and memorization of the canon of texts (at first, the largely spurious records of the Ancient Kings; later, the Confucian Classics), was to be sure emphasized as in Greece. The differen- ces reflected the dominance of a citizen caste in Greece, monarchical states developed out of feudal polities in China. In the latter, Superior Man had initially meant, literally, Son Of A Lord. By Confucius' day, the recruitment of appointed officialdom by rulers in state-building called forth Confucius' policy of training young men of commoner birth into the simulacra of born and bred nobles. This is to say, the definition of the cognitive associated with a given ruling class in this society or that may seem elsewhere or in some other period of history bizarre, perverted (ie, Abominations(*)), or silly; but so long as the socialization process output prospective ruling-class members seemingly oozing Smartness as locally defined, no matter. [(*) In the Seleucid Empire, which more aggressively than the Ptolemaic propagated Hellenism as - in our terms - Westernization and Modernization, some Backward barbarians, as the Near Easterners were defined, eagerly aped the conquering Macedonian and Greek white military settlers, *cleruchs*, and as in eg Judaea, underwent reverse-circumcision surgery for respectable appearance in the gymnasium; others, in the same country, invented "Homosexuality" for the first known time in history, and pulled off the first known Fundamentalist Social Revolution.] I have invoked comparative-historical sociology to bring home the arbitrari- ness and transitoriness of social constructions of Smartness (with its inevitable and invariable fake antithesis, Stupidity, indicative of the lack, in the vast majority of the population, of the capacity to think). I cannot emphasize too strongly the fact of the systematic and ruthless *enforcement* of Essential Stupidity. [Eg, in the Jim Crow Deep South, a "smart nigger" was at the very least under suspicion of tending toward the most malign sort of African-American, the "bad nigger," whose life expectancy was not great by reason of adopting the assertiveness and elsewise psychically Normal profile of the "good" white person. Another version may be found in DSM-III-R, the Malleus Maleficorum of psychos, where among surefire signs of schizophrenia is listed "neologisms and overelaborate words." A loophole for flipped-out shrinks exists in the injunction to consider "educational level." But I happen to know this bag-lady with a PhD; suppose she got locked up, who'd believe she's a person of High Degree?] Where even the [notional] Athenian political paradise and intellectual hotbed was vertically divided into three hereditary castes, and the citizen caste itself into five classes (the Latin version, with four classes, gives us our word "class," from *slassis*, which made Classical Antiquity Classical), there wasn't any need for excellence in brains to be hereditary; merely the condition of Better Sort, *kaloi kagathoi*, there were so many dimensions of excellence for these agonistic competitors to finish in the money (or laurel wreath) in the relevant contests. All the educated could speak up and get taken seriously, there necessarily having been such a dearth of them. It is with the advent of *bourgeois society and bourgeois society alone* that the locus of cognitive performance, as newly redefined by the introduction of the mass- education in the mid-to-late nineteenth century, was sited in the discrete human organism. The grading of students was invented at Cambridge University in 1794. Thus, it is no older than time-scheduled living cum commuting, or Functioning, as it is known in common speech. (See D. Landes, Revolution In Time, 1982; Thompson, Customs In Common, 1993; Jean Lave, Cognition In Practice, 1985. "Functioning," curiously, conveys the sense of "being a moving part in someone else's machine.") From this time onward, the educational apparatus, whose massive existence, as Jean Lave cogently argues, has shaped and warped all of the prevalently conventionalized notions of how children and others learn, so as to leave unexamined the postulate of the necessity of the classroom, has made finer and finer distinctions among those undergoing this type of the formal socialization process *and* has sited the locus of "achievement" in the discrete organism. Thus it enforces one answer as to which of two possibilities is the case in the *absence of itself*: Either (a) With the exception of a very few geniuses and somewhat more numerous Retarded persons, *we are all the same*, pretty much. Appearances to the contrary are artifacts of measurement of persons of hierarchically unequal social origin. (b) Smartness is distributed Normally, like other measured continuous varia- bles in human populations; i.e., the Bell-Shaped Curve; and we are pretty damned certain that height is genetically determined; consequently, so is Smartness. Differentiated scores define *discrete organisms*. There is, given the disposition to locate the site of achievement (or future-achievement-propensity called *aptitude*) in the discrete organism, and to chastise ideation to the contrary as Deviance we call *external blame* or delusions about *locus of control*, just enough differences as between organisms *to make the inference heuristics - rules of thumb - and attributions of Inferiority vs Superiority in "Intelligence" Look Good*. Ideological representations of essential differences which do not exist find expression in the following ways: (1) Expectations of, or the sense of entitlement to, elite status or, more generally, any stratum appropriate to that of one's family of origin, as unconsciously absorbed from a point very early in life, *Determines Performance*: Once upon a time, an undergraduate at the State University of New York at Stony Brook got the causal proposition of the ideological misrepresentation wonderfully mixed up, and said: "You mean, where I'm going to End Up in Later Life determines how I'm going to do on the Test next Tuesday?!" It does, it does. (1a) Also, it follows from *this* interpretation that the lower IQ scores observed among the US black population is attributed to the circumstance that they're African-*Americans*: They've internalized via the socialization process, very early in life, the proposition that, "If there has got to be a Bottom, it might as well be us." Which may be demonstrated by the higher aptitude, achievement, and "Intelligence" scores observed among immigrants and their young children: People from Trinidad or Kerala (even untouchables or "scheduled castes") have their unconscious cognitive maps of society nullified by the fact of migration to a different society, whereby the place of persons with black skins in the Natural Order of Things becomes problematized, as opposed to a taken-for-granted Law of Existence. (2) The more you group your test score data, the closer to perfection does the correlation between household income of the family of orientation and the observed mean score of the interval become. Thus, it is possible to say, from grouped 1974 SAT data, that an increment of $23.41 in parents' income predicted an increment of one point on the Scholastic Aptitude Test. The zero-order Pearson r between the two variables was 0.96; and the regression coefficient was an amazingly significant five times its standard error for 12 observations. (I'd played with programming statistics formulae in the APL language, and put in as test data a table of figures from Harper's magazine just for the fun of it; that's what came out.) You may group your data by neighborhood, too; the principle and result are the same. (3) As everyone, no matter how socially Inferior, cherishes some invidious distinctions which demarcate him or her from some organism still more Inferior, everyone acquires some vested interest in shreds of lesser degrees of Inferiority. This legitimates the hierarchy as a whole, which according to the Census Bureau survey released last week, grows more hierarchized over time, an additional million people having fallen into poverty in the last year alone. (3a) It will be observed, in corroboration, that any readers of this post, whether on LEFT-L or on PSN, will consider themselves Smart; and this will hold even more strongly for nonreaders of this post; which is My Problem, given the epistemological impact of stratification. Nobody, except those very few with a material vested interest in Equality Of Result, will accept an egalitarian politics; at best, merely a few cosmetic mitigations of the *degree* of inequality and hierarchization, whose reformist appeal will *necessarily* lose out to that of the Charles Murray position, conducive as that is to the constitution of a neo-hereditary fake-aristocracy. All organisms construing themselves Smart will, in the crunch, or even without any crunch, crave, desire, or intend that their *own* children shall enjoy "all the advantages." Because the hereditary transmission of social rank (or status, a five- letter Latin word for the four-letter English word, rank) *is what children are for*. (3b) We have a literary text called The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance, by Robert Pirsig, which is almost invariably misinterpreted by younger readers. Another, minority, reading of this text is: The protagonist, "Phaedrus," as an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at the University of Chicago, had been *socially constructed as Smart*. Denied tenure, he had lost his occupation - there having been little he could have done with a PhD in philosophy except teach philosophy - and with it his family. Most agonizingly, he'd also lost his *licence to operate a mind*, in terms of social validation of Smartness: Those who are paid to Think are allowed to claim possession of Minds; others are, well, "We don't pay you to think," that's the last thing they tell you before, "You're fired." Having become Nouveau Stupid, "Phaedrus," under the strain of intolerable cognitive dissonance, concocts the Smart-looking, to the non-Professional reader, "Metaphysics of Quality," whereby he satisfies himself that, not only is he still Smart, but actually even exceeds in his Smartness the people who fired him. But doesn't convince anyone else. As we approach the end of the novel, it has become apparent that he has become "reality-impaired"; he's just a psycho ready for consignment to the hospital with a prognosis, to the reader, that doesn't look good. (Eighteen years later, Pirsig produced another literary text, this one execrable, called Lila. Here is conclusive evidence of the contingency and dependence upon social validation of Smartness, for "Phaedrus" now Believes in the hokum "Metaphysics of Quality"; what's worse, he can't even write good prose any more!) (3c) The siting of Smartness (or Stupidity) in individual essence, coupled with the liquidation of the industrial working class in the Reaganite de-industrialization (see the two books on this subject co-authored by Barry Bluestone), have polarized society into those constructed as having Essential Smartness, whereby we may suspect that in the case of most such organisms, *whatever they are paid to do is defined as Thinking*; and those whose *human capacity to think is defined out of existence* such that they cannot be convinced that they can, they do think, barring pecuniary compensation therefor. 4. If Equality and Egalitarianism will not sell, what will? Individuation, the Freedom of (or for) Uniqueness, the inalienable right to Difference and Incommensurability. I've appealed to many an otherwise-elitist on this basis. Once people have become generalizably incommensurable, invidious distinctions of stratification, Superiority or Inferiority must deteriorate in salience. The people! Untested! Can never be computed! Daniel A. Foss From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 05:08:11 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 05:05:23 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: problem To: PORNADA On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, PORNADA wrote: > to socgradders, > > I've run into a problem accessing ASA. I've tried to reach it > through the address "ASA@GWUVM" is this not the address? Any > help would be greatly appreciated if their E-mail address has changed. > > thanks, > > greg > ASA uses mcimail now. The following list of address was posted to the methods list by Earl Babbie Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA >>> Item number 337, dated 94/09/11 11:10:40 -- ALL Date: Sun, 11 Sep 1994 11:10:40 -0700 From: Earl Babbie Subject: Re: ASA e-mail addresses? >Does anyone on the list have the e-mail addresses for the American >Sociological Association? Thanks in advance. The Summer 1994 ASA Footnotes lists: ASA_Executive_Office@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Governance_Sections@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Business_Office@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Meeting_Services@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Membership@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Subscriptions@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Publications@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Spivack@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Minority_Affairs@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Chair_Link@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Academic_Professional_Affairs@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Research_Program@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Public_Affairs@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Public_Information@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Felice_Levine@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Carla_Howery@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Janet_Mancini@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Ramon_Torrecilha@MCIMAIL.COM ASA_Karen_Edwards@MCIMAIL.COM Earl +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Earl Babbie ][ BABBIE@NEXUS.CHAPMAN.EDU ][ CIS:76424,156 | | Chapman University, Orange CA 92666 ][ Voice: 714-997-6565 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 05:42:13 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 05:37:34 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:29:49 +0500 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Dan Ryan) Subject: Murray Book content-length: 196 I wonder... ...is there anyone among us who has read the book and not just reviews? Just curious. Dan ! ! ! ! m a i l f r o m d a n r y a n ! ! ! ! From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 05:42:13 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 05:39:06 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 08:28:23 EDT From: Alan Subject: Charles Murray on CBS To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU, psn@csf.colorado.edu For anybody who may be interested, tonight's eye on America segment on the CBS Evening News has an interview with Charles Murray. The only excerpt they showed in a preview last night was him stating "I think fear of being called a racist is one of the more overblown fears in society." Alan Davidson From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 06:11:04 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 06:08:14 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:55:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Sakamoto White Subject: Re: Mid-South Meeting To: Melanie Lowery Melanie, I'm presenting two papers at the Mid-South. One other student from Georgia State is presenting there as well. I'm looking forward to the conference and am going with my wife and two children. Lafayette is a fun place, as you may know, and I'm turing the conference into a vacation. Bill _______________________________________________________________ Bill Sakamoto White "My country is the world Department of Sociology and my religion is to do Georgia State University good." socwawx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu ---Thomas Paine --------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Melanie Lowery wrote: > > Is anyone going to the meeting in Lafayette at the end of this month? > > > ****************************************************************************** > "The New Feminism emphasizes the importance of the 'women's point of > view,' the Old Feminism believes in the primary importance of the human > being." - Winifred Holtby, 1926 (from _Who Stole Feminism?_) > ****************************************************************************** > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 06:48:38 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 06:41:49 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:41:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: school colors To: Michael Gibbons I also watched this show, and I found myself truly wondering where the concept of multicultural education has gone wrong. It doesn't seem to be teaching respect for anyone's culture except one's own. I see this here, and I also see it somewhat in the women's movement. Balkanization is not the way to go, IMHO. Throughout most of this wonderful documentary, I felt that the kids at Berkeley High were pawns in the game of education reform, diversity, etc. I saw very little learning about math, English Lit, biology, etc. Did you feel any of this, or was it my own filter in play? Melanie On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Michael Gibbons wrote: > hello folks > > i've just finished watching the PBS show SCHOOL COLORS, and found it to > be a great production. It did a very good job showing just how pervasive > problems of race are in our country. so often problems like that are easy > to ignore since we live in largely segregated worlds that it was great to > see the tensions and the pressures laid out for all to see. very good. > on more than one occasion you could see that the school's faculty were > operating on an entirely different set of assumptions from an entirely > different world. the sad thing is there seems to be no answers to the > questions this school faces, which is sad because they mirror the > problems our society faces. what answers are there? it seems there are none. > what impressions did this particular movie leave on other socgradders? > > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 07:46:43 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 07:42:00 -0700 for by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V4.3-11 #5489) id <01HIGFI84OMO9EJWRT@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:41:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:41:53 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU From: 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Christopher Gunn) Subject: Re: school colors To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Michael Gibbons wrote: > >i've just finished watching the PBS show SCHOOL COLORS, and found it to >be a great production. It did a very good job showing just how pervasive >problems of race are in our country. so often problems like that are easy >to ignore since we live in largely segregated worlds that it was great to >see the tensions and the pressures laid out for all to see. very good. >on more than one occasion you could see that the school's faculty were >operating on an entirely different set of assumptions from an entirely >different world. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I didn't get to see the show--schedule conflict, hope it gets rerun-- but read a *strange* preview in the _Kansas City Star_ on Monday. I don't have the article in front of me (it's at home), but the reviewer, who is not publically or vocally a right-winger (so far as I can remember), saw it as a cry of warning against a coming Politically Correct world. He saw rampant abuse of white people, including Red Guard-style sessions of public denunciation and humiliation. Sort of a rationale for 'fear of a black planet'.... I detected no sense of irony in the article. I'll try to remember to clip it if it hasn't been tossed yet. All a question of set and setting, I guess. (Sorry for the psychologism....) Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 08:21:50 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:17:54 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 10:17:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: school colors To: Christopher Gunn <1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Christopher, I am FAR from a right-winger, but I got a lot of the same ideas from the documentary. My earlier post was an attempt to quickly express this same kind of worry. I too hope it gets a rerun, so I can take another look... melanie On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Christopher Gunn wrote: > I didn't get to see the show--schedule conflict, hope it gets rerun-- > but read a *strange* preview in the _Kansas City Star_ on Monday. > I don't have the article in front of me (it's at home), but the reviewer, > who is not publically or vocally a right-winger (so far as I can remember), > saw it as a cry of warning against a coming Politically Correct world. > He saw rampant abuse of white people, including Red Guard-style > sessions of public denunciation and humiliation. Sort of a rationale > for 'fear of a black planet'.... I detected no sense of irony in the article. > I'll try to remember to clip it if it hasn't been tossed yet. All a question > of set and setting, I guess. (Sorry for the psychologism....) > > Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas > > > Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory > 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas > Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall > Lawrence, KS 66045 > > > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 09:12:44 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:03:14 -0700 for sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Wed, 19 Oct 94 09:03:04 PDT for socgrad@ucsd.edu From: velasco@alishaw.ucsb.edu (Steve Velasco) Subject: Re: school colors To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 9:03:00 PDT > > > I also watched this show, and I found myself truly wondering where the > concept of multicultural education has gone wrong. It doesn't seem to be > teaching respect for anyone's culture except one's own. I see this here, > and I also see it somewhat in the women's movement. Balkanization is not > the way to go, IMHO. > I watched about a half hour of this show, but saw enough to make me truly disturbed. I don't think Berkely HS style multiculturalism is the correct answer. We should avoid race baiting of any kind, and I saw a lot of that going on last night. I don't understand how one can avoid seeing the hypocrisy in professing 'multi-culturalism' while denegrating another race. I was, I think, appalled by the Latino teacher (yes, I am Latino) who seemed to have a genuine disgust for white people. This guy should not be teaching (IMHO). Anyway, I don't have the answers. I think, we may get 'there' if we all try to remain a bit more humble and respectful of each other, though. Maybe I'm just naive. --steven velasco uc santa barbara From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 09:24:14 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:14:12 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 12:14:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Chiquita Collins Subject: Re: school colors To: Melanie Lowery I also watched this documentary, and I thought that it was an excellent reflection of race and class segregation in society. I disagree with Melanie's statement that culture specific courses (i.e., Chicano, African American) did not teach respect for another culture. In most cases, these classes are developed to supplement what "core" course (i.e., History, English Literature) often neglect-- the contributions of African Americans, Native Americans, Asian Pacific Islanders, and others (I hate the use of minority) to these subjects as well as society. Many times, as seen in the film, instructors neglect scholarly work and instead teach how the vent anger, or their personal opinions. I do agree that multiculturalism taught out of context, courses that teach separation from other racial groups, is not beneficial for any group. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 09:31:20 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:24:42 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:24:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: school colors To: Chiquita Collins I agree that multicultural education, taught with the proper goals in mind - to teach respect, understanding, interest, etc. for "other" groups - is a good thing. What I saw in this documentary, and what I have seen in practice in several other places, is lacking completely in scholarly rigor and used to further segregation, not to ameliorate it. On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Chiquita Collins wrote: > I also watched this documentary, and I thought that it was an > excellent reflection of race and class segregation in society. > I disagree with Melanie's statement that culture specific courses > (i.e., Chicano, African American) did not teach > respect for another culture. In most cases, these classes are developed > to supplement what "core" course (i.e., History, English Literature) > often neglect-- the contributions of African Americans, Native Americans, > Asian Pacific Islanders, and others (I hate the use of minority) to > these subjects as well as society. Many times, as seen in the film, > instructors neglect scholarly work and instead teach how the vent anger, > or their personal opinions. I do agree that multiculturalism taught out > of context, courses that teach separation from other racial groups, is > not beneficial for any group. > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 10:06:42 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:52:03 -0700 for Wed, 19 Oct 94 12:52:01 +1100 From: "LEE MARTIN" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 12:51:41 EDT Subject: multiculturalism A colleague once made a statement about multiculturalism that resonanted with my own not-so-well-formed impression of the current phenonmena.....something along the lines of "eventually, at least for a period, people come around to celebrating what they're stuck with..." I hear that racial & ethnic minority groups (in terms of population) are growing to such an extent in America that in 50 years or so they will cumulatively comprise a greater proportion than clearly anglo background whites. Who knows the actual demographic projections (who's got the hard numbers)? Furthermore, the statement above also seems to reflect historically specific conditions currently prevailing in America. Could it be that multiculturalism as a movement/ideology (or what is it?) is happening now but will disappear as a fad----or change into a more diffuse toleration----or what? Lee From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 11:17:46 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:06:30 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:06:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Chiquita Collins Subject: Re: school colors To: Steve Velasco , mlowery@comp.uark.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU "Can we all just get along?"--Rodney King If only it was that easy. The Latino instructor felt that the school newspaper should incorporate articles written by students who reflect the racial composition of the school. I agree with him. In my high school, individuals who were interested in working for the school newspaper signed up for the class (print shop) and were English majors. Berkely High did not explain what the process was for joining the school's newspaper. There was more in this documentary that you may have missed. The issue of class (tracking) tracting was addressed. Classes are separated by level of skill. A.P. classes are taught in most schools, however, Berkely High's general classes were segregated by race. Not all white students take A.P. courses, yet (interesting) the general classes were 85% non-white. One instructor taught a "heterogeneous" class, which integrates various skill levels of students. White students in this class complained that the instructor lost focus on teaching the subject matter when most of her time was spent on "controlling disruptive students". Black students, who attend school for the same reason as most students, are often stereotyped into "disruptive students" and other stereotypes. Many times African Americans students must go through this annoying process of proving themselves to the teacher that they are competent to do the work. If we could eradicate prejudices and racist attitudes, which is part of America, passed on from generation to generation, maybe we could just be humble and respect others. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 11:21:15 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:09:22 -0700 for Subject: Re: school colors To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:09:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Karen T Farquharson I watched the program "School Colors" intently and agree with a lot of what has been said by contributors to this list. I wonder if it's a good idea to have African-American Studies, Latino Studies, and/or Asian Studies departments at the high school level, but I also empathize with the instructors' desires to teach students about their specific histories. The fact is that in general non-European world views are not emphasized. Courses may have a module on England, and another model on Africa, and a third on South America, despite the differences in scale. As aperson of mixed race, I didn't see myself (or anyone of color) in the classroom curricula until college, and even then, only in the social sciences. One of the things that leapt out at me was that the students of mixed race (7%, if I remember correctly) are pretty much excluded from all ethnicity days. It is as if mixed race people have no ethnicity! It seems that they have to choose a race to become friendly with, due to the extreme segregation at the school. I guess that this is how it is in life, as well. Ironically, the person giving the valedictory (?) speech at the end was of mixed race. Karen From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 11:41:17 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:27:51 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 13:08:53 CDT From: MMAUME@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu Subject: GSA Meeting of 10/13 To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU To all soc grad students: As your new GSA reps, Rebecca and I attended the GSA meeting on October 13 and feel obligated to summarize the proceedings of that meeting for you. I. The GSA from LSU is now a member of NAGPS (National Association of Graduate and Professional Students??). Health insurance will be available to you from this organization, as well as a low-interest-rate credit card. More info on this stuff later. II. The question of LSU providing day care for students' children will be on the spring ballot. The admin. has stated that there must be a 70% approval of this by the ENTIRE student body (this includes undergrads). This means that if 100% of the student body votes in the spring (which never happens), 70% must vote in favor of day care. This is a problem for a lot of students, so your support on this matter is appreciated. III. Bids are in the works to add bike racks to certain places. The students at the meeting discussed where bike racks needed to be added, and where some that are not currently being used could be moved elsewhere. If you have any ideas on this, let us know. IV. I got to voice my beef about GRADS travel money. There could possibly an item on the spring ballot asking graduate students whether they would be willin g to pay a little more in fees to increase the GRADS fund.Most of the studen ts there seemed to think that this could become a reality. A few dollars increase in fees could make a big difference in this fund. V. The GSA is looking for volunteers to paint classrooms. If you have an itch to do some refurbishing to this campus, call Greg Dobson at 4561. It will only take about 4 hours of your time. The next meeting will be on November 10. If you have any issues that you would like us to bring up, or if you want to come and present your beef in person, let us know. Thanks for reading! Rebecca Carter rcarter@lsuvm Mike Maumemmaume@lsuvm From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 12:02:54 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:48:09 -0700 for sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Wed, 19 Oct 94 11:48:05 PDT for socgrad@ucsd.edu From: velasco@alishaw.ucsb.edu (Steve Velasco) Subject: Re: school colors To: chiquita@psc.lsa.umich.edu (Chiquita Collins) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 11:48:01 PDT > > "Can we all just get along?"--Rodney King > Yes, I said I was naive...But where will your "insight" take us? > If only it was that easy. The Latino instructor felt that the school > newspaper should incorporate articles written by students who reflect the > racial composition of the school. I agree with him. In my high > school, individuals who were interested in working for the school newspaper > signed up for the class (print shop) and were English majors. > Berkely High did not explain what the process was for joining the school's > newspaper. I also agree that a _student_ newspaper should reflect the student body. I wasn't really refering to this incident when I made my comment about the Latino teacher. It just seemed _to me_ that he had a genuine distaste for white people and anglo culture in general, at least according to a few of the remarks he made, and the reported conversation he had with the white buzz-cut student. We should discourage this lack of respect for others. Would you agree? > > There was more in this documentary that you may have missed. The issue of > class (tracking) tracting was addressed. Classes are separated by level of > skill. A.P. classes are taught in most schools, however, Berkely High's > general classes were segregated by race. Not all white students take A.P. > courses, yet (interesting) the general classes were 85% non-white. One > instructor taught a "heterogeneous" class, which integrates various skill > levels of students. White students in this class complained that the > instructor lost focus on teaching the subject matter when most of her > time was spent on "controlling disruptive students". > Yes, these are legitimate concerns that can and should be addresed. But again, I don't think belittling white folk is the answer. That is the point I am trying to make. Even in my naivite, I can see that there is still a legacy of racism, and prejudice in this country which I myself have experienced/experience. However, I see a dominant culture that is at least trying to right past wrongs. Perhaps this is too long in coming, I don't know. Let me just say that replacing one form of racism with another is not the answer. Respect for each other can and should be a guiding principle in formulating answers to these complex, and not entirely resolved issues. --steven velasco uc santa barbara LONG LIVE ARETHA!!! From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 12:27:46 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 12:19:38 -0700 for From: stryker@garnet.berkeley.edu Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 12:19:12 -0700 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU unsubscribe socgrad Sean Stryker From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 13:27:40 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 13:19:05 -0700 for Wed, 19 Oct 94 16:18:45 +1100 From: "JOAN HERMSEN" Organization: University of Maryland,College Park To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 16:18:18 EDT Subject: gender regimes info Hi - I am working on a paper using RW Connell's concept of gender regimes (see _Gender and Power_). I am looking for papers which have applied this concept to a particular countries, sets of countries, other social relations, etc. I'm having very little success finding other papers and thought some of you may be familiar with other work. Reply privately if you wish. Thanks for your help. Joan Univ. of Maryland s-jhermsen@bss1.umd.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 13:29:15 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 13:21:12 -0700 for From: jmaurer@s-cwis.unomaha.edu (John J. Maurer) Subject: Re: school colors To: velasco@alishaw.ucsb.edu (Steve Velasco) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:16:45 -0500 (CDT) Berkely HSs' multicultural program seems to be representative of the problems present multiculturalization in the U.S. It seems to be more focused on a revengeful "now, it's our turn" approach. This in my opinion, is very nonproductive in "educating" people and sensitizing them towards issues of other races, ethnicities, and cultures present in America. NO one race should be a target for an attack and destroy operative of multicultural programs. Sensitization, education, and even retribution have a place in a multicultural agenda. But, this poses the question: "should Multicultural Programs truly have an agenda or should they simply provide different perspectives and not focus on a position (politically)?" Don't misunderstand me either, I too am FAR from right wing conservatism. I believe that the white euro-american culture/ government hold certain responsibilities towards ethnic and racial groups that have been historically oppressed under its' guidance. This responsibility should not fester as guilt or hatred. It should be dealt with in reasonable and well thought out policies of retribution and true multicultural programs. Just a few of my opinions. Flame me if you chose. -John From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 14:29:04 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:21:02 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 16:20:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: multiculturalism To: LEE MARTIN On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, LEE MARTIN wrote: > > Could it be that multiculturalism as a movement/ideology (or what is > it?) is happening now but will disappear as a fad----or change into a > more diffuse toleration----or what? Anything is possible, but it seems to me that so many people have gained power (ie. important positions in bureaucracies) that they may not let it die so easily... Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 14:45:00 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:35:50 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 16:35:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: Re: school colors To: Karen T Farquharson On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Karen T Farquharson wrote: > One of the things that leapt out at me was that the students of mixed race > (7%, if I remember correctly) are pretty much excluded from all ethnicity > days. It is as if mixed race people have no ethnicity! It seems that they > have to choose a race to become friendly with, due to the extreme > segregation at the school. I guess that this is how it is in life, as > well. Ironically, the person giving the valedictory > (?) speech at the end was of mixed race. > > Karen Well said, Karen. I, as a person of mixed heritage (1/8 Native American, 1/2 German, and the rest, who knows) also have no "ethnic culture." I am interested in hearing scholarly work on the history of all people, listening to differing viewpoints, etc. Ultimately, though, we have to decide if we are going to be just plain Americans or not. Saying that doesn't mean that we agree with everything that goes on here. It just means that we are willing to work TOGETHER to make improvements. Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 14:47:25 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:36:18 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 16:36:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: school colors To: socgrad On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Chiquita Collins wrote: > "Can we all just get along?"--Rodney King Hopefully, but I don't think that we are headed in that direction, if this documentary was any indication. > If only it was that easy. The Latino instructor felt that the school > newspaper should incorporate articles written by students who reflect the > racial composition of the school. I agree with him. In my high > school, individuals who were interested in working for the school newspaper > signed up for the class (print shop) and were English majors. > Berkely High did not explain what the process was for joining the school's > newspaper. It seemed to me that the Latino instructor, who was very hostile to whites in general, wanted to be able to do whatever he wanted, regardless of the procedures - not that procedures are always right. He didn't want them to be edited, etc. I would imagine there must be some skill level involved for people who are on the staff. There was in my school. You had to submit writing samples, etc. Surely there must be some students "of color" who could legitimately write for the paper? Or there could be some sort of compromise reached, where all people felt ok with the arrangement, rather than some feeling as if they were being railroaded by multiculturalists for the sake of multiculturalism. > There was more in this documentary that you may have missed. The issue of > class (tracking) tracting was addressed. Classes are separated by level of > skill. A.P. classes are taught in most schools, however, Berkely High's > general classes were segregated by race. Not all white students take A.P. > courses, yet (interesting) the general classes were 85% non-white. One > instructor taught a "heterogeneous" class, which integrates various skill > levels of students. White students in this class complained that the > instructor lost focus on teaching the subject matter when most of her > time was spent on "controlling disruptive students". This would also upset me. I imagine it would be cause for complaint by most of all us. Heck, even in the class that I teach here, if people are habitually late, my other students complain to me if I don't address this. They say it distracts them. I somehow don't believe this is what is going on in Berkeley high, though. Only having the students arriving late would be a godsend. > Black students, who attend school for the same reason as most > students, are often stereotyped into "disruptive students" and other > stereotypes. Many times African Americans students must go through this > annoying process of proving themselves to the teacher that they are > competent to do the work. Yes, you are right. People are stereotyped very often. But I also don't believe that it is too difficult to overcome this type of stereotype. Fraternity boys do it all the time in universities. > If we could eradicate prejudices and racist attitudes, which is part of > America, passed on from generation to generation, maybe we could just be > humble and respect others. So true... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Academic training was instrumental. You have to understand the language of society before you can start stretching and subverting it and ripping and tearing it and burning it and watching the plastic drip on the ants." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ....It's by Mark Pauline in the RE/SEARCH issue Pranks. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 15:06:29 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 14:57:37 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 16:53:31 CDT From: MMAUME@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu Subject: oops! To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU To all socgradders: I would like to apologize for any confusion caused by my earlier post. I mistakenly sent it to this list instead of the local one we use for grad students in soc. at LSU (called soc-grad). In other words, please disregard that message! Mike Maume Louisiana State Univ. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 15:13:44 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:09:15 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 17:09:06 -0500 (CDT) From: nick mcree Subject: inherited intelligence/Murray's thesis To: socgrad Tom Brown asked if anyone "buys" the argument that intelligence is inherited. Well, I think so, at least to the extent that different species display differing sets of problem-solving skills. ******* While Charles Murray's thesis in _The Learning Curve_ is certainly controversial and thought-provoking, it is also essentially misguided. He fails to see that while the human brain is in some respects "hardwired" before birth, it is hardly a fully-developed organ at conception. Most development of the human brain takes place after birth, and it's development is directly related to specific types of environmental stimuli. Human infants are essentially helpless at birth. Not so with most other species, many of which bear offspring that are self-sufficient at birth. The ironic factor is that the helplessness of the human infant is in fact a product of natural selection. Human brains are not fully developed precisely because of the importance of environmental forces in shaping the survival (social) skills of infants. In this respect an examination of those environmental factors which influence brain development are crucial to understand why there are differences in behavior. I do, however, wince at my discipline, which actively resists (or at least fails to meaningfully consider) the role of biology as one of many determinants of behavior. Nick McRee UT-Austin From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 17:12:13 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 17:02:34 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 19:02:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Lowery Subject: C. Murray To: socgrad Does anyone know what time Charles Murray is supposed to be on PBS tonight? Or what show? I "lost" that post... Thanks. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 18:16:45 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 18:13:58 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 21:07:21 EDT From: Alan To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU, psn@csf.colorado.edu Actually, I misspoke earlier. Charles Murray declined an interview (probably b /c CBS is "liberal", but they did show an excerpt from a PBS interview and interviewed the Rev. Jesse Jackson, and summarized his argument. One of these days, I'll get my hands on Time and Newsweek. For those on the West Coast, it was on the CBS Evening News Eye on America segment. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 19 18:17:02 1994 Wed, 19 Oct 1994 18:11:38 -0700 for Date: Wed, 19 Oct 94 21:11 EDT From: "Jetaway Dave" Subject: "Stepping Out" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU I believe that this week was to be the begining of a discussion of Molotch's "Stepping Out," published in the June 1994 edition of Sociological Forum. Would anyone care to lead......? Jetaway Dave From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 20 04:37:27 1994 Thu, 20 Oct 1994 04:36:05 -0700 for Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 07:36:01 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: Re: your mail To: Alan On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Alan wrote: > Actually, I misspoke earlier. Charles Murray declined an interview (probably b > /c CBS is "liberal", but they did show an excerpt from a PBS interview and > interviewed the Rev. Jesse Jackson, and summarized his argument. One of these > days, I'll get my hands on Time and Newsweek. For those on the West Coast, > it was on the CBS Evening News Eye on America segment. > I saw the CBS segment; looked like the interview with Murray came from Ben Wattenberg's show--at least I think that's who was interviewing Murray. There's also an interesting editorial in Wednesday's New York Times about the argument. Best, Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 20 07:28:31 1994 Thu, 20 Oct 1994 07:26:47 -0700 for Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 9:26:20 CDT From: alina oh To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: re:Bourdieu Hello. I think John Maurer had asked about texts on Bourdieu and "symbolic violence". Here a a few suggestions: Pierre Bourdieu: Social Space and Symbolic Power in Sociological Theory; 1989 vol.7:1 Spring p.14-25 Bourdieu: The Genesis of the concepts of 'habitus' and 'field' in Sociocriticism 2,2:11-24 Loic Wacquant: From Ideology to Symbolic violence: culture, class and consciousness in Marx and Bourdieu in International Journal of Contemporary Sociology 1993 30:2 Bourdieu:Critical Perspectives ed. by Craig Calhoun, Edward LiPuma & Moishe Postone 1993 Cultivating Differences ed. by Michele Lamont & Marcel Fournier 1992 Alina From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 20 07:51:59 1994 Thu, 20 Oct 1994 07:50:42 -0700 for Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 10:43:41 EDT From: Steve Harvey Subject: problems unsubbing To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Sorry to use the list to ask this question, but I don't have Laura's address on hand, and the ucsd listserv doesn't seem to be doing the job. I've tried to unsub several times, and keep getting the message that I'm not found on the socgrad list, but also continue to receive postings. Laura (or anyone else), how do I get off? (I've been writing to listserv@ucsd.edu, leaving the name and subject blank, and typing "unsub socgrad" in the body of the message). Thanks. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 20 11:19:04 1994 Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:09:33 -0700 for Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:09:28 -0700 From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: how to unsubscribe Too much email in your life? If you want to unsubscribe from Socgrad, send a message to: listserv@ucsd.edu and in the body of your message, type: unsub socgrad Remember to send the message to listserv, NOT to Socgrad itself. Any problems or questions can be directed to lmiller@ucsd.edu From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 20 19:37:12 1994 Thu, 20 Oct 1994 19:35:12 -0700 for From: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 19:35:09 -0700 To: danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: Murray Book I wonder... ...is there anyone among us who has read the book and not just reviews? Just curious. Dan ============================= That's the first step towards being able to argue with him, isn't it? I read his shit in the 1980s, and I don't really think I want to relive those days. As you may recall, his was one of the bibles of the Reagan administration, and provided the rhetorical firepower for much of Reagan's poor-bashing. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 20 19:42:47 1994 Thu, 20 Oct 1994 19:42:10 -0700 for From: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 19:31:43 -0700 To: danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: Murray Book From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 21 04:16:51 1994 Fri, 21 Oct 1994 04:12:59 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 04:11:24 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: "Stepping Out" Actually, Molotch's article is "Getting Out". Harvey wants us to "get out" in two different ways: first, we should pay more attention to what other disciplines have to say about the issues we're researching; and second, we should get out into the world and enrich our lives so that we will have more insights into how things work. He links this "knowing how things work" to his argument that instead of piling on citations, sociologists should just assert the things that "everybody knows" (or ought to). This second item was discussed over the weekend by a couple of people who found it dubious. I don't know about the rest of you, but I only had time to read two of the articles, and the other one I chose was James A. Davis' "What's Wrong with Sociology?". On "getting out", Davis and Molotch are opposites; Davis thinks that Sociology hasn't shown to the will to fend off alien contagions. Consequently, we have put up with an appalling amount of bunk (postmodernism, ethnic "studies", "feminist methodology", "humanistic sociology", "ethnomethodology", "grounded theory", and the like) simply because we cannot draw a firm line between what is legitimate academic sociology and what is not. (188) Davis laments that the "hot topics" in Sociology today include "poverty, homelessness, racial inequality, man/woman conflicts, the fall of communism, aging, and third world development," which are "intractible, massive, convoluted social problems where it is extremely unlikely that any progress can be made through policies and programs." Instead, he would like us to take up problems in which we can make a dent: "short range demographic projections, development of attitude scales, and election polling" (189). Both Molotch and Davis comment on Sociology's incoherence and the lack of progressive cumulation (as opposed to cumulation "as debris on the shop floor" as Molotch says) of research findings. While there may be zillions of references on topic X, article 9995 written last year stands a good chance of being less far along in its analysis than arcticle 127 written 25 years ago. Molotch's unlikely solution is that we should organize ourselves more into distinct cultures, pulling together those who think in similar ways. Davis' even more unlikely solution is that the Sociology journals should force us to build up a cumulative knowledge base by preferring articles which specify better models explaining the correlations between certain key variables. He says that "sociology could consider itself a coherent, cumulative science if and when its core topics have at their core causal networks similar to Figure 5.1, page 179 in THE AMERICAN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE (Blau and Duncan, 1967)". He goes on to suggest that we should look at problems like: 2. It is well established that in the United States, net of education, the newer the cohort the lower the verbal skills. But is this due to something about schools, something about the new generation, or what? His questions are reasonable, and it is indeed curious that no one has tried (much) to answer them. But Davis' solution to Sociology's identity crisis (if we really are having one) amounts to lobotomizing the patient in order to save her. While there is much to admire in the work of, say, Otis Dudley Duncan, I didn't become a sociologist in order to emulate him, and I think I would rather go back to being a computer systems manager (my old job) than be forced to do that kind of sociology. Davis is trying to make us look like "real" science, but, like Molotch, I think the effort is pointless. I think that both articles made a number of other good points that I would list if I had the time. Instead, I'll point out five trivial commonalities between the articles that I found interesting. 1. Both refer admiringly to Howard Becker's WRITING FOR SOCIAL SCIENTISTS. I think that's a good hint that you should pick up a copy if you haven't yet. As an aside, I thought the book was wonderful, but I have never been able to follow up one of its key recommendations: make writing a social activity by sharing drafts with your colleagues. Have others done this successfully, or have you been frustrated like me? 2. Both make references to Monty Python (I SAID this was trivial), e.g. "That parrot is dead, regardless of what its salesperson claims" (Davis, p. 185). I thought this was a curious coincidence; are we the "flying circus" of the social science world? 3. Both make Jewish references. Davis says that we sociologists need a "shtick", which for him is explaining correlations. Molotch, when he advises truth in advertising regarding the different "cultures" within sociology (e.g. "'The Journal of Wisconsin Quantoids' (as opposed to 'American Sociological Review')"), he says "It would look bad for the gentiles, but it would capture something real" (229). Sociologists as Jews, and with our own shtick, yet. A lot of sociologists ARE Jews, and I'm curious what this means to the non-Jews (don't look at me) out there in electronicland. How do you think it affects the discipline? 4. It struck me that both of these articles read like they were written by old men. It's my bias, but Molotch sounds old and wise, while Davis sounds old and cranky. In particular, Davis, with his list of undesirables (ethnic studies, feminist methods) comes off like somebody lost in the past. 5. Did anybody else notice that all these articles about "what's wrong with sociology" were written by white (I think) men (pretty sure)? Nothing wrong with white men, speaking as one, but it seems like somebody ELSE might have had something even more different and enlightening to say. That's it for tonight (this morning, really). Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 21 05:37:55 1994 Fri, 21 Oct 1994 05:34:59 -0700 for Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 08:16:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Sakamoto White Subject: Re: Murray Book To: tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Tom and Fellow Socgrads: This quarter, I'm teaching an undergrad course on Racial and Ethnic Minorities. After hearing about the book and seeing the debate about it, I have asked my students to keep up with the reviews and the dialogue in the mainstream media. I intend to get the book this weekend to literally "run through it" (I really don't have the time to read it, but I imagine I'll get the sense of its content by scanning it). I may not be able to add much depth to the ongoing debate about the book, but I may be able to report on its essence. By reading the book, I hope to offer some critical comments about it to my students. Bill _______________________________________________________________ Bill Sakamoto White "My country is the world Department of Sociology and my religion is to do Georgia State University good." socwawx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu ---Thomas Paine --------------------------------------------------------------- From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 21 06:06:00 1994 Fri, 21 Oct 1994 06:02:37 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 09:01:07 EST To: danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu, socgrad@UCSD.EDU, tombrown@cats.ucsc.edu Subject: Re[2]: Murray Book I wonder... ...is there anyone among us who has read the book and not just reviews? To the best of my knowledge the book was only just released this week. I flipped through it in a bookstore last night. Although the reviews refer to it as an 800-page book (800 pound gorilla), the main text is about 550 pages, with several appendices. It looks readable, i.e., directed at the general public. I understand that an entire issue of the New Republic has been devoted to it. Barbara From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 21 09:11:28 1994 Fri, 21 Oct 1994 09:08:01 -0700 for Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 11:07:33 CDT From: alina oh To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Bourdieu and RCT Hi Bob - It looks like we may be focusing on different texts and hence arriving at diverging interpretations; given BourdieuUs eclectic and immense oeuvre, itUs easy to see how this can happen. In the texts IUm looking at, for instance, in _Outline of a Theory of Practice_ Bourdieu writes about how the habitus [as history turned into nature] is "unconscious" and "forgets" the historical processes which engendered it in the first place - and actually, in this text, he suggests that the notion of a non-hierarchically structured social order or a hierarchically structured order as inevitable and just - is doxic ideology at work. Implicit in this notion of "Doxa," the "natural" and the taken for granted [as distinguished from orthodoxy or heterodoxy which implies the awareness and recognition of different or antogonistic beliefs] lies the assumption of a hierarchially structured order. Doxa shapes mental structures, ethical dispositions such as honour or respect toward elders and ancestors or discrimination towards members of certain groups; and especially in societies experiencing class struggle, the drawing of the line between what can be questioned and what is beyond question is terrain for struggle. In this struggle, the definition of the social world is at stake, and the dominated classes have an interest in pushing back the limits of doxa and exposing the arbitrariness of the taken for granted [of the dominant systems of classification while the dominant classes have an interest in preserving doxa or at the least, substituting it with orthodoxy. Alina From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 21 13:00:32 1994 Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:54:40 -0700 for by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V4.3-11 #5489) id <01HIJJ0DSYXS9EL571@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>; Fri, 21 Oct 1994 14:54:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 14:54:23 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU From: 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Christopher Gunn) Subject: Bibliograpy software thread To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU A fairly comprehensive head-to-head review of the Mac (and DOS but not [yet] Windows) bibliography programs EndNote Plus 1.2 and Pro-Cite 2.01 was written at Curtin University in Australia and can be obtained by ftp from URL: ftp://info.curtain.edu.au/pub/curtin/library/biblio.rtf i.e., by using an ftp program to get to "info.curtain.edu.au" and finding the file "biblio.rtf" in directory "/pub/curtin/library". The file is in Rich Text Format and presumably reasonably intelligent word-processor to be made human-readable. The review is from August, 1994, and does not cover the latest version of EndNote (2.0), which was just released. The conclusion: "[EndNote] does not require the steep leaning curve of Pro-Cite and is less complex to use." This and what they felt were better human-factors in the search facilities outweighed somewhat greater capacity and flexiblity of Pro-Cite. Not a tremendously profound article, but I thought it was worth reading. Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 21 17:44:54 1994 Fri, 21 Oct 1994 17:41:38 -0700 for Date: Fri, 21 Oct 94 19:59:29 EDT From: Lisa Eargle Subject: What's Wrong With Sociology To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU Regarding an earlier post made by Lichter on Davis and Molotoch....You'd think after 2 weeks I 'd have them read, but.. I haven't. I agree with what Lichter said, but just wanted to add my thoughts. I'd heard fellow sociologists criticize us for the diversity -- different topics, different approaches -- found in sociology. But, like someone pointed out a few days ago (Michael?) that each approach taken alone misses or leaves out something. So, different ways of doing Sociology -- phenomen- ology, structuralism, etc. -- gives us different angles on the same topics, and hopefully leading us to a better understanding of society and its parts. Diversity of topics and approaches is one of the things I found (still find) attractive about our discipline. Just because I'm a Sociologist doesn't mean I must study mobility tables (like O.D. Duncan and Peter Blau) or do community studies like the old Chicago School. I can study pretty much anything about society that I want, using which ever theories and research methods I feel is appropriate. And, why would we want to keep studying the same issues using the same methods over and over? Are we going to fully understand society doing that? I doubt it. It sounds like to me "Worship us sociologists of the 50s/60s and be our puppets" is Davis' motto. also, if our work is not pioneering as some of the old studies (remember, it was easy to do something pioneering long ago. Sociology was still in its infancy), is it garbage and we should only do research that is major ground breakers? Then somebody better change the rules of tenure and give me a hefty research grant so I can go do something radically new for my career. And, oh yes, they should go ahead and give me my PhD, because it'll take me to long to do my dissertation. Get real. Second, sociologists are listening to other fields and other fields are finally listening to us. For example, during the late 1980s (around '88) Ivar Berg and Arne Kalleberg and Paula England and George Farkas edited books examining labor markets, industries, occupations, and earnings. These books contained chapters written by sociologists and by economists. Also, those of us studying earnings/wage determination incorporate in our models variables used in Human Capital theory (developed by Gary Becker, economist), Dual Economy/Dual Labor markets (developed both by economists and sociologists) -- just to name a few. So, I find anyone asserting that no interaction between fields is going on --must have been keeping their eyes and ears shut for the past 20 years. Besides, why should only sociologists listen to other fields? It should go both ways. We have something to offer to other fields also. What I do think we need to do a better job at is asserting what our research contributes to the understanding of social phenomena --beyond that of common sense. We need to assert this to other disciplines and to the public. Those outside of sociology really have no idea what we do and what we're about. They think we're a 10 second sound bite on the nightly news. One way of doing is showing how our work applies to economic, political, and social policy. ---Lisa From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 01:50:34 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 01:49:13 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 01:22:26 -0600 Originator: psn@csf.colorado.edu From: U17043%UICVM.BITNET@vaxf.Colorado.EDU Subject: social hierarchy -> notions of human nature X-Comment: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK The three books propounding IQ-hereditary-cognition-class/race-behavioral- genetics relationships, featuring Herrnstein & Murray's The Bell Curve, as reviewed, on the whole favorably, in The New York Times Book Review last Sunday, tell us, from the standpoint of the sociology of knowledge and the study of ideology, that this is what turns on the US book-reading and book- buying public *at this time*, or more pretentiously, *in this historical period*. The latter public is to be identified with the upper middle class. [I've recently run across another factoid - Justin Schwartz please take note - to the effect that sixty percent of the US adult population does not read or does not buy a book in any given year; said factoid I'd picked up either from Neil Postman or from Robert Hughes (ie, last year's The Culture of Complaint). Looks exaggerated; but that may depend on what's meant by "book." - df] The upper-middles are the beneficiaries of the legislated inegalitarianism- cum-deindustrialization social counterrevolution under Reagan-Bush (if to lesser degree than the Really Rich), the effects whereof continue unabated, if not more strongly than ever, to this very moment. They are interested parties, and much more overtly, crassly so than their forebears, who read Michael Harrington, Paul Goodman, Norman O. Brown (among a host of other bestselling reformist to radical social/cultural critics and muckrakers), were in the early 1960s: The "neo-philosophes" cast by history as harbingers of the optimistic-to-utopian reformist legislation and extraparliamentary radicalism of the Sixties carried on in an environmental-determinist ambience positing a priori assumptions of human perfectibility given social-structurally supportive, ideally participatory-democratic, mobilized communities of dissidence articulating local needs and interests, "controlling the decisions affecting their own lives." This writer, indeed, was present in Syracuse NY, when the now-loathsome bureaugibberish locution, "empowerment," was generated in an OEO-funded entity called the Community Action Training Center; and the prototype-verbiage was, in particular, attributable to one Warren O. Haggstrom, PhD, Professor of Social Work at Syracuse University, thanks to whom what became "empowerment" acquired the Shrinko-motivational-characterologically transformative usage it still retains. [Note: Haggstrom characterized "powerlessness" as a species of mental disease which, if remediated by - as it turned out - spurious formal organizations in slum neighborhoods, would impart the sense of power, which in turn would conduce to deviance-reduction cum upward-mobility aspirations. Which didn't occur, the prime beneficiary having been Haggstrom's career.](*) The point, before I digress more, is that, hitherto, reformist social- ameliorationist institutional change presupposing a priori assumptions of paramountcy of the social envioronment in facilitation of "opportunity," ie, circulation of elites, alternated with mean-spirited conservative consolidation and closure of elites as they were: The early nineteenth century was of the former type, Jefferson and his pal Benjamin Rush, notably, having seen a black man with skin disease exhibited in a circus, inferring that prolonged contact with whites had manifested in turning the unfortunate's skin white in blotches! Rush, the Philadelphia psychiatrist, medicalized each and every behaviour he disliked, inventing such diseases as Masturbatory Insanity and Anomia (compul- sive lawbreaking); the latter, of course, French-suffixed, transmitted to Emile Durkheim who, inverting its psychiatric usage for sociology, gave us *anomie* as memorized by undergraduates to this day. The late nineteenth century was, Robber Barons having made their money and, inventing High Society, meaning to keep it, hereditarian and racist; babble anent the Great Race of Anglo-Saxons crossing the Atlantic and back. Then the Progressives arrived, with a reform that proved two-faced: "Americanizing the immigrant," ie, coercively assimilating her/him to a standard whereby it was sustainable conviction that the United States of America was, as it still is, Stronger Than Dirt, they abandoned racial minorities utterly. Strife, of a bizarre character, erupted over the tribal faction which would end up concoct- ing the IQ tests; and it was the Jewish boy, Wechsler, who victoriously hijacked the measurement of cognition from the *goy momzer*, Louis B. Terman, who would have consigned *'Am Yisroel* to subhumanity/Retardation. As late as 1960, 55% of Clinical Psychologists, the majority of testers, were Jewish (as were 60% of psychiatrists, 75% of psychoanalysts, and 80% of the latter's Shrunkees). Blessed be the Name of Wechsler; for his test has made my good friend Alan Spector whatever he is today; while I, myself, was assigned the terrible burden of being "brilliant" albeit an egregiously slow, near-dyslexic, reader, zilcho in the abstract-reasoning department, and bereft of indications of brains other than fantastic trivia-memorizing. A job is a job. Albeit in the end I flopped, I'd got farther than I should've; and to this day wish I'd been raised Stupid, the probable outcome in a *goyish* family with several children. Happily, the tests redeemed themselves by privileging the Chinese immigrants who permanently populate this computer room; and this writer can say aught ill of them excepting only the probably-racist impatience with whatever Chinese consider jokes. (A Chinese Milton Berle? Jack Benny? Lenny Bruce? Fantastic!) The Progressives gave way to outright terroristic racists (the KKK had five million members in 1925) and immigration-restrictive tribalists, spurred by fear of admitting Boshevik Hordes. Till the Great Depression and through the 1930s, even under cover of an antiracist war against Hitlerite Fascism, the racist, elitist, WASP-heavy Establishment above and Coughlinite and America- Firsters below, gave Stronger Than Dirt a new, reactionary-repressive twist. (Tweedy, old-family WASPs directed the War with some uncertainty as to Who Was The Enemy; their passive obliviation of Holocaust activities is, to recent scholarship, complicit and culpable in the monumentally tragic result.) The hegemony was, however, shifting: The Democrats enacted landmark legislative and administrative measures for black people, if piddling considering what was needed; and opened the social-mobility floodgates with the GI Bill as they state-subsidized suburbanization. Throughout these twentieth-century turnabouts, the industrial working class was there; it was discontented to put it euphemistically; and till the Purges and Rightist Terror of McCarthyism was the backbone, the muscle, of Democratic Party liberalism. Even later, a more tepid, circumspect liberalism emanated from trade-unionism and working-class-based political machines. (To this day, in Chicago, pro-union posters appear in advertising space on subway station walls during labor disputes, as they never do in New York City; and the sacred right of the working class to smoke on rapid-transit platforms may not be abridged by the slicker, and worse, Mayor Daley who, unopposed, freely abridges the right to expression by Minorities by denying them, given widespread lack of home phones, permission to use phone booths after dark; these are removed and otherwise incapacitated. [Note: Alleged Community Groups spring out of the ground like mushrooms, supporting the uprooting of phonebooths allegedly used by crack dealers only; the latter use booths slightly farther away. Whites are not aware of these goings-on. Fascism-by-stealth, I call it.] These vestiges of the working class Tradition and its heroic moment in 1894, when Atty Gen Olney shot first, asked no questions later, and thereby perhaps saved The Whole Ball Game, are gone now, along with the working class, in Chicago and even more so everywhere else. The classic industrial working class is 15% of the population, and its restraining hand against the polarization of stratification is now removed. Moreover, the Reagan-Bush legislation, as continuing under Clinton, subsidized the motive to get rich, in contravention of the motivational assumptions of classical political economy. "Accumulate! Accumulate! That is Moses and the Prophets!" But to practice that religon in our day, bounties need be paid for conversions to the True Religion. (Dwight David Eisenhower, of boring memory, and his Treasury Secretary, Humphrey, most Orthodox of Republican True Believers, needed no tax subsidies to motivate the instinct of pecuniality.)[Note: By analogy with "sexuality," where the power of the former was, in the nineteenth century, certainly, far more formidable an urge than the latter.] I can explain why this had to be so, but none of you are remotely ready for such stuff. Without a working class, with the population polarized into the minority paid to sell shared mental life as pseudocommodities, the remainder not paid to think or paid not to think, wherefrom arises my suspicion that, whatever the former are paid for is construed as thinking, a new central contradiction of capitalism has arisen. [Note: Not with a ten foot pole will I touch hot stuff like this here.] Ideology is summoned to crawl out of the woodwork to legitimate a fake, spurious, selfishly and heritably privileged cognocrats affecting designer genes from best boutiques. Magic numbers become heritable: Says a psychiatric researcher of this writer's acquaintance, "My own IQ is 133, and my daughter's IQ has also been tested at 133." Family heirloom, no? What we have here are "notions of human nature," tricked out as science. As scientific-seeming, they may *appear to be proven*. They cannot, however, be *falsified*, scientifically, in that the motive for the dissemination of such notions is social and extra-scientific. The Opposition's response to these, to any, "notions of human nature" must be to account for, to explain, why they exist from *outside* the discourses, knowledge base, methods, and professional literature of psychometrics and human behavioural genetics: All societies give rise to normative-idealist "notions of human nature" (as well as folk-wisdom acknowledging lapses from idealized standards) compatible with prevalent social conditioning and social construction in each; also, they posit whatever sort of "human nature" is assumed or explicitly propounded as *prior* to society-as-it-is (with the latter's conditioning and construction). *The latter is quite impossible*. (For so far from belaboring the obvious, I'd like to take a halt, assume a loftier view:) The only truly universal part of the natural habitat of humans in general or in particular are society and community with their corresponding shared culture). It is in this society - subsuming community - with community subcul- tures, at least, the only part of each person's environment that she or he is systematically taught from birth that it is Forbidden to transform. Yet, transformed it is, has always been, by quotidian struggle, reformist legisla- tion, administration, social upheaval or Revolution or Civil War, and the ever- ubiquitous "unintended consequences." The Opposition must restate these elementary propositions iteratively, so long as they are denied or banished from consciousness. Meanwhile, it is legitimate for us to play the same game by highlighting deep-seated yearnings slighted or stifled by media-propagated "notions of human nature." For instance, wherein rightism exalts "the individual," this alludes to the predatory-accumulative-"competitive-edge"-obsessed monad of bourgeois individualism, an emergent construct for centuries inseparable from bourgeois culture of the most residual sort so long as capitalism be with us. The Opposition, therefore, appeals to stifled and suppressed cravings for *individuation*, at this time as a rule disallowed (outside narrow spheres of adult life whereof one such liminal state, the Halloween Party, approacheth; but only such that the Halloween Party and suchlike "liminal states," as the anthropologists call them, *change nothing*. To the eroded communities of small towns and urban neighborhoods, with their oppressive conformities, The Opposition responds, firstly, with a hearty, "good riddance," and critiques the obsolete, deliquescing former-Thingie with a vision of *communities of the individuated*, such as never hitherto existed (except, possibly, in the fiction of Marge Piercy, Woman on the Edge of Time, 1975; He, She and It, 1991). Nobody, absolutely nobody whatever, wants to be "Equal," ie, aver that she or he construes herself-himself as *no better than anyone else*; this will be treated with Prozac, Zoloft, whateveritis, for "poor-self-esteem!" Least of all will those "Paid To Think" contemplate the ignominy of being "Equal" to those who are paid-nottothink or not-paidtothink. The prospect of communities and a wider society guaranteeing uniqueness is, however, inexorably in contradiction with hierarchy, buttressed as the latter is by the one-dimen- sional measuring instruments of the psychometricians. The latter, like the State Lottery, sell Magic Numbers; but are *less fair*, in that all the winning tickets are sold in certain neighborhoods, none in others. *You Can't Beat Something With Nothing*! To the ideology of hierarchization, The Opposition counterposes its own vision, whose thrust must be *completely new* and *completely different*. Which is only appropriate and quite reason- able, given that US capitalism has revolutionized itself twice over since World War II, as Marx long ago warned us is something capitalism *will do* (should you ever be nodded out, complacent, or excessively-certain of anything, especially). We are, have been, asleep at the switch beyond even what might be charitably called *egregiously*. There is no adequate sociological macrotheory for the fantastic irrationalities of the USA (though I've tried my limited best to come up with some pieces of it). Time to get to know the Beast better to understand its odder excrescences, like the present IQ-aristocracy game. Daniel A. Foss From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 01:57:57 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 01:56:53 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 01:56:50 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: CONF: Internet Conference Announcement Somebody had asked about resources for on-line teaching ... Michael --- Forwarded mail from H-Net Ethnic History discussion list >From @uga.cc.uga.edu:owner-h-ethnic@UICVM.UIC.EDU Wed Oct 12 06:33 PDT 1994 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 08:02:05 -0500 From: Josef Barton Subject: CONF: Internet Conference Announcement Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 17:53:58 CST6CDT From: Wm Painter Research and Pedagogy in Cyberspace: A Conferencing Workshop for Teachers On Using the Internet *************************************************************************** NOVEMBER 7-11, 1994 Virtual Online University will be hosting a conference workshop for teachers and researchers who would like to utilize the vast resources of the Internet in their teaching and research activities. Specialists from around the world will direct sessions by e-mail and online which educators of all levels should find most useful in facilitating their use of Internet. KEYNOTE SPEAKER: Bonnie Bracey A member of the National Information Infrastructure Advisory Board and an Elementary School Teacher, Bonnie Bracey has been an outspoken advocate of bringing technology into the classrooms of American schools. **PRESENTERS** Just a few of the presenters and their topics: Joseph Wang, President of the Globewide Network Academy The Globewide Network Academy - A Vision of Education for the Early 21st Century. Eric Crump, University of Missouri (Net)Rats in the Cathedral: Introducing New Learning Environments to Old Institutions Marcus Speh (Hamburg, Germany) Weaving a World-Wide Web of Education Robert Donnelly, President of VOU Internet Resources: It's More Than Furry Rodents, Spider's Houses and Comic Book Characters -- (Gopher, Web, Archie, Veronica and Jughead) Michael Bertsch, Dean of Humanities, VOU Touching the Text: Interactive E-Teaching George Duckett (Australia) GENII: An Internet Welcoming Committee for K-12 Teachers Jeanne McWhorter, Diversity University MOO MOO's and Educators: Its More Than Just a Game All sessions will include both e-mail and interactive components; you will 'attend' from your home. For a complete list of the presentations, a schedule for the conference and registration information, send a request to: wpainter@bigcat.missouri.edu --- End of forwarded message from H-Net Ethnic History discussion list From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 09:09:35 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 09:06:31 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 11:53:52 EDT From: Lisa Eargle Subject: murray book To: SOCGRAD@UCSD.EDU I haven't read the Murray book, but my thoughts are this: Did any of us seriously think racism, sexism, classism, and all the other isms had went away? If there's any good to come from this book, it is that maybe the racists, elitists, and others will reveal themselves for what they really are. I saw a news clip the other day where former drug czar William Bennett told Jesse Jackson to his face that whites were smarter than blacks. Also, maybe it will revitalize those of us who despise the -isms to rise and challenge the Murrays again. But, the Murrays aren't the only threat. Some of the folks who call themselves "Multiculturalists" are also just as dangerous. They also wish to exploit and subjugate like the Murrays. Different actors, different labels, but same agenda. This is my last post for a while...I'm bogged down in teaching and dissertation Sweet dreams... ----Lisa From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 13:55:11 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 13:53:12 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 15:52:51 -0500 (CDT) From: nick mcree Subject: sub instructions To: socgrad Will someone please post (or email me privately) the instructions for subscribing to socgrad? My friend is trying to subscribe to "listserv@socgrad.ucsd.edu" and keeps getting her post returned by the daemon. Thanks Nick UT-Austin From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 14:01:31 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 14:00:28 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 94 16:58 EDT From: "Pamela Paxton" To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Sociological Forum Here's my contribution to the 'Whats wrong with Sociology' discussion.. I agreed with many of the points presented by Molotch. We do write atrociously and with too many citations. I also agreed with his claims that Sociologists 'eat' each other when they so freely take issue with each other rather than celebrating what is good with someone else's work. This comes from the discipline's diversity and lack of core. I have to disagree with Lisa, however, when she contends that our factionalization is giving us the ability to look at sociological problems from a myriad of perspectives. This would only be true if sociologists bothered to understand each others perspective. Instead, I feel that sociologists tend to cling to their own perspective and ignore what other areas are saying about the same problems. This is partly a function of time - it is difficult to learn all the different perspectives when you are supposed to be publishing all day long. It pays off in the short run to get a perspective and stick to it. As for listening to/being listened to by other disciplines, I also have to disagree. Outside of a few areas in sociology such as organizational studies and political sociology I think we aren't communicating with other disciplines enough. We tend to simply claim their perspective is wrong and leave it at that. That is not communication. I thought both Molotch and Davis were both on target when they discuss the fear of saying anything of importance or taking a stand. Molotch couches it in terms of difficult writing but Davis puts it more clearly - we are afraid of content because content can get you into trouble. It made me think a bit about the Murray book. Granted, he is saying some pretty controversial things. But he is SAYING them. He's out on a limb - and he's getting alot of attention for it. If we buy Molotch's arguement that we are all shy, then it makes a bit of sense that we might be afraid to ever have anyone call us on anything we say. We have to learn to say SOMETHING though! I sense that Davis stepped on some people's toes. Was it his quantitative push? Between him and Molotch, I personally thought he was the only one to come up with concrete suggestions. I was left with a 'what can we do?' feeling when finishing Molotch. There was more of a plan of action in Davis' suggestions. Of course we may not agree with them BUT at least he put his suggestions out there. He wasn't 'shy' about his position. Unfortunately... neither of the articles was directed toward graduate students. Most of the suggestions were for people in a slightly better position. My question to all of us is, what can WE do about some of these problems? We are all obviously constrained in our choices. How can we still move along, publish, get jobs, etc. and not help to perpetuate the very things we complain about? Without giving it much thought, I think our first option is to demand better writing of ourselves (and of others once we get in a position to do so). If we make an effort to avoid journalese, to form writing groups, etc., we'll be taking a step. (I've been in a writing group for awhile - it only takes up a few hours a week) We can also read more on problems and solutions to those problems. Awareness may be the first step. Reading "making it count" by Stanley Lieberson made me reevaluate some research I was doing and attempt to do it a different way. Does anyone else have suggestions for what we can do RIGHT NOW to solve some of the above mentioned problems? I eagerly await them. Pam Paxton PS. Has anyone else on the list read Lieberson's 'Making it Count?' It is the best critique of quantitative methods I've read. It gives concrete solutions to the problems as well. I think that even 'non-quantoids' would like the book because it also discusses problems with the way we THINK about social phenomenon. Hubert Blalock's 'basic dilemmas in the social sciences' is another great one. He spends a chapter on the problems with our intellectual climate (more like the stuff we read in soc. forum) while Lieberson does not discuss those issues. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 14:42:15 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 14:40:06 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 14:40:01 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: History & Murray (Long) So as not to bombard you, I've put together four messages from PEN-L and PSN that address the IQ controversy and Murray's new book. The first is primarily about politics; the second both comments on the book (Ted actually read it!) and includes a lenghty history of the erroneous application of "the bell curve" to IQ and social phenomena including test scores; the third adds an anecdote; and the final message, by Joe Feagin, documents some of the historical uses of IQ testing, including labeling of Southern and Eastern European immigrants as "of inferior races". |Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 02:30:43 -0700 |From: djones@uclink.berkeley.edu (jones-bhandari) |Subject: fascism |X-Comment: Progressive Economics List | |I am hoping that we can use this line to think through our responses to |Murray and Herrenstein's latest "research". | |I want to raise here two points: their concern with differential birth |rates and the critique of positivism. For those of you whose appreciation |for the delete key grows as my posts grow, I do recommend skipping to the |passage which I quote on positivism. | |1. So-called race suicide | |What strikes me is their complete revival of the fears of race suicide. |They are concerned with not only the intellectual potential and |reproduction rates of the oppressed but with the alleged differential |reproduction rates of classes bifurcated by their IQ's. In the Atlantic |Monthly in 1989, Herrenstein lamented that high IQ women are not having |enough children, while Murray is now openly arguing that the welfare system |is a defacto fertility policy--"The technically precise description of |America's fertility policy is that it subsidizes births among poor women, |who are also disproportionately at the low end of the intelligence |distribution." | |Of course IQ has been collapsed here with intelligence without argument, |and Murray has intimated once again that AFDC increases birth rates, |instead of merely ameliorating poverty especially among children. But if |further cutbacks in AFDC do not further his programme to control the |already declining birth rate among the most oppressed, what other means |will be available to him--see Troy Duster's disturbing book Backdoor to |Eugenics. Already they are proposing to make birth control devices and |information more widely available to the poor. | |And one wonders what means will be proposed to increase the birth rates of |high IQ women. Remember people like George Gilder have argued that the |total re-subordination of women in patriarchal, nuclear families is the key |prop to rekindling the spirit of enterprise: only when bourgeois men have |children and dependent wives (family ties) do they work hard enough to and |have the motive to save--which then cures the economy of the savings |shortfall engendered by a rising depreciation rate. Savings and investment |are treated as subjective variables. The influence of Gilder's |neo-Schumpeterian theories on contemporary family policy has been noted by |Pamela Abbot in the Family and the New Right, as well as indirectly by |Stephanie Coontz in The Way We Never Were. | |What seemed at first as a right-wing attempt to resubordinate all women in |patriarchal families is turning out to be a policy directed towards |curtailing the reproduction of some women and at the very least lamenting |the lack of births among others. It seems to me that the Moynihan thesis |is now being used to justify a policy approaching eugenics: since Black men |cannot be the heads of the Brady Bunch (on genetic grounds) and since |children should not be raised in women-headed households, Black women |should be discouraged from having children at all. So whereas before |Black men were to be singled out for job training, while Black women were |induced to become dependent upon them, they are now both to be ignored--on |account of a good deal of poverty getting down to an intractable core. But |then again, as Adolph Reed has pointed out, the job program the goal of |which was putatively to make good patriarchs of Black men was service in |the man-short army during the Vietnam War. Quasi-genocidal policies from |that recommendation to the very process of ghettoization have been part of |America...since its inception. | |In other words, the concern here is not simply excessive reproduction of |the oppressed but with differential reproduction between "classes", which |has often been the object of "corrective" state policy in the twentieth |century. It seems to me that what we need a rigorous marxist theory of such |policy, theory which clarfies what is at stake: socialism or barbarism. | |2. the critique of M and H's positivism | |It may be most effective to strike at Murray's very methods. From John |Hoffman's 1975, Marxism and the Theory of Praxis: | |Positivism tries to restrict science to the world of "appearances" and thus |leaves it vulnerable to fetishism of every kind. The truth of a phenomenon |is only intellible when we really *understand* it, when we can begin to |explain it, relate it, dig out its causes, in short, reasn about it....if |people of different classes or "races" look different, behave differently, |think differently, then this is somehow "empirical" proof that class and |"race" can only be explained in physiological terms. The historical forces |which make people what they are, which shape them and mould them, giving |them a specific appearance at a specific moment in time--these are simply |ignored--and the momentary form is ossified into a timeless reality. No |real change is possible: all that remains is for charlatans and mystics to |carry out their fascist-type experiments in order to coerce the "defective" |and the "aberrant" to "genetically adust" to a capitalist status quo. |Postivism with its dogmas of socially irresponsible (allegedly |"value-free") science, of theory without practice, brings to an ugly head |the age-old philosophical activity of trying to freeze historical |development into timeless "verities", mental abstractions, which leave the |world the world as it is. Sacrificing objective reality for its empirical |fragments, postivism strikes viciously at the roots of reason, our ability |to control the world around us, and defends instead a religion of passivity |and helplessless in the name of "science": we are all victims of |circumstance, genetic inheritance, accident, instinctual impulses which |nobody can control, and the only bit of philosophy we have to guide us |through life is to follow the will of those who know better (p.15-16) | | |jb | | |Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 06:35:56 -0600 |From: Ted Goertzel |Subject: Myth of the Bell Curve |X-Comment: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK | |I've followed the commentary on The Bell Curve with interest. I |believe I am the first commentator so far who has actually read |the book. It is very well written and thought out, and really |exemplary in communicating the results of quantitative research |to a statistically unsophisticated audience. By most objective, |academic, scientific standards, it is an excellent book. This is |not to say that it doesn't have its weaknesses, but they are not |in overlooking the kinds of rhetorical points that most PSN |commentators have made. Most of the arguments made on PSN are |anticipated in the book and responded to with extensive citations |and/or quantitative findings. If PSN members believe this book |is important, they will have to do a lot of hard work to refute |it. Just going into battle with the kinds of arguments expressed |on the network will make the left look rhetorical and shallow |compared to the rigorous science of Herrnstein and Murray. | |There has been little discussion of the actual recommendations in |the book. They do not, for example, propose abandoning |affirmative action, but limiting the margin given to blacks or |other minorities on tests such as the GRE and LSAT to half a |standard deviation. They give statistics showing that in elite |schools the minority mean is often more than a standard deviation |less than the white mean. This seems unfair, especially to white |students from modest economic circumstances who feel treated |unfairly. Their recommendation is a plausible policy, different |from the policy of having a quota for minorities and admitting |the strongest minority candidates regardless of how they compare |to the majority. What policy do PSN members advocate? Quotas? |Class as opposed to racial criteria? Herrnstein and Murray also |address the question of socioeconomic vs. ethnic or racial |criteria. | |Some of the weak points in the book are mentioned in the current |issue of Newsweek - e.g., the "Flynn effect" which they use to |explain away the fact that IQ scores seem to be increasing over |time rather than falling as their theory predicts. Probably the |most fundamental weakness is overlooking the importance of |cultural factors. | |Another flaw which happens to interest me in the image of "The |Bell Curve" itself. I published a paper (with Joe Fashing) on |this back in 1981 in Humanity and Society. Since this is a very |difficult journal to find, and I believe the paper will interest |you, I am sending an adaptation of it along. Feel free to use |this in your courses, cite it in your writings, etc. It has been |buried long enough. | |Ted Goertzel | |PS |I am thinking of revising and updating this. If any of you have come |across misuses of the normal curve, please send them on to me. |Ted Goertzel, Rutgers University, Camden NJ 08102 | | | | The Myth of the Bell Curve | by Ted Goertzel | |Adapted and condensed from: Ted Goertzel and Joseph Fashing, "The |Myth of the Normal Curve: A Theoretical Critique and Examination |of its Role in Teaching and Research," Humanity and Society 5:14-31 |(1981), reprinted in Readings in Humanist Sociology (General Hall, |1986). | | | Surely the hallowed bell-shaped curve has cracked from top to | bottom. Perhaps, like the Liberty Bell, it should be enshrined | somewhere as a memorial to more heroic days. | | -Earnest Ernest, Philadelphia Inquirer. 10 November 1974. | | | | The myth of the bell curve has occupied a central place in the |theory of inequality (Walker, 1929; Bradley, 1968). Apologists |for inequality in all spheres of social life have used the theory |of the bell curve, explicitly and implicitly, in developing moral |rationalizations to justify the status quo. While the misuse of the |bell curve has perhaps been most frequent in the field of |education, it is also common in other areas of social science and |social welfare. When Abraham de Moivre made the first recorded |discovery of the normal curve of error (to give the bell curve its |proper name) in 1733, his immediate concern was with games of |chance. The normal distribution, which is nothing more than the |limiting case of the binomial distribution resulting from random |operations such as flipping coins or rolling dice, was a natural |discovery for anyone interested in the mathematics of gambling. De |Moivre was unhappy, however, with the lowly origins of his |discovery, He proceeded to raise its status by attributing to it an |-importance beyond its literal meaning. In his age, this could best |be done by claiming hat it was a proof of the existence of God. He |announced: | | And thus in all cases it will be found, that although Chance | produces irregularities, still the Odds will be infinitely | great, that in process of Time, those irregularities will bear | no proportion to the recurrency of that Order which naturally | results from Original Design .... (Walker, 1929:17). | | De Moivre's discovery of the bell curve did not attract much |attention. Gamblers are perhaps better served with discrete |distributions. Theologians, for their part, no doubt preferred to |base their case for God's insistence on less probabilistic grounds. |Serious interest in the distribution of errors on the part of |mathematicians such as Laplace and Gauss awaited the early |nineteenth century when astronomers found the bell curve to be a |useful tool to take into consideration the errors they made in |their observations of the orbits of the planets. | Further developments in the myth of the bell curve were left |not to the astronomers or theologians but to the early quantitative |social scientists. Systematic collection of population statistics |began in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries as a |response to the social upheavals of the time and the consequent |concern with understanding the dynamics of mass behavior. These |early sociologists were not concerned with theology, but they were |seeking proof of the orderliness of society. Relying on the |justifiably great prestige of Laplace and Gauss as mathematicians, |they took the bell curve as proof of the existence of order in the |seemingly chaotic social world. Unfortunately, the early |social scientists often had a poor understanding of the fact that |the mathematical formulas of Gauss and Laplace were based on |assumptions not often met in the empirical world. As Fisher (1923, |Vol. 1: 18 1) points out: | | the Gaussian error law came to act as a veritable | Procrustean bed to which all possible measurements | should be made to fit. The belief in authority so typical of | modern German learning and which has also spread to America | was too great to question the supposed generality of the law | discovered by the great Gauss. | | The mathematicians, on the other hand, did not feel that it |was their domain to check whether or not the empirical world |happened to fit their postulates. The bell curve came to be |generally accepted, as M. Lippmnan remarked to Poincare (Bradley, |1969:8), because "...the experimenters fancy that it is a theorem |in mathematics and the mathematicians that it is an experimental |fact." | Adolph Quetelet, the father of quantitative social science, |was the first to claim that the bell curve could be applied only |to random errors but also to the distributions of social phenomena |(Landau and Lazarsfeld, 1968; Wechsler, 1935:30-31). The myth of |the bell curve was part of Quetelet's theory of the Average Man |(Quetelet, 1969). He assumed that nature aimed at a fixed point in |forming human beings, but made a certain frequency of errors. The |mean in any distribution of human phenomena was to him not merely |a descriptive tool but a statement of the ideal. Extremes in all |things were undesirable deviations. His doctrine was a |quantification of Aristotle's doctrine of the Golden Mean, and it |is susceptible to the same criticisms. While there may be traits |where the average can reasonably be considered to be the ideal, the |argument's application is severely limited. One might argue, for |example, that average vision is ideal, whereas nearsightedness and |farsightedness are undesirable deviations. But is this true of |physical strength or of mental abilities, or even of physical |stature (one variable for which there is actually substantial |evidence of an approximately normal distribution)? Quetelet, like |Aristotle, exempted mental abilities, arguing that those who were |superior to the average in intelligence were mere forerunners of a |new average that was to come. | Quetelet's doctrine of the Average Man was ill suited to a |society that was more in need of a rationalization for inequality |than a glorification of the common man. His use of the bell curve, |however, was useful as part of the social Darwinist ideology that |was emerging as a justification for the inequities of laissez-faire |capitalism. | The myth of the bell curve found its most enthusiastic and |effective champion in Francis Galton and the eugenics movement of |which he was a major founder. The importance that he attributed to |the bell curve can be illustrated by the following quotation |(Galton, 1889:66): | | I know of scarcely anything so apt to impress the imagination | as the wonderful form of cosmic order expressed by the "Law of | Frequency of Error." The law would have been personified by | the Greeks and deified, if they had known of it. It reigns | with serenity and in complete self-effacement amidst the | wildest confusion. The huger the mob, the greater the apparent | anarchy, the more perfect is its sway. It is the supreme law | of Unreason. Whenever a large sample of chaotic elements are | taken in hand and marshalled in the order of their magnitude, | an unsuspected and most beautiful form of regularity proves to | have been latent all along. The tops of the marshalled row | form a flowing curve of invariable proportions; and each | element, as it is sorted into place, finds, as it were, a | preordained niche, accurately adapted to fit it. | | Galton went beyond Quetelet not only in his enthusiasm |for the bell curve but also in his attempt to gather data to |demonstrate its general applicability. He obtained data on a |number of physical traits that he was interested in improving, such |as height, weight, strength of the arms and of the grip, swiftness |of the blow, and keenness of eyesight. The variables tended to be |approximately normally distributed, but the fit was not perfect. |He consequently converted his data into a type of standard score |and averaged the standard scores together (Galton, 1889:201). |These average scores fit the fit the normal curve very well as |might be expected since he had averaged together a number of |largely unrelated variables and created a mean score that reflected |little more than random error. | Karl Pearson (best known today for the invention of the |product-moment correlation coefficient) was Galton Professor of |Eugenics at the University of London and Galton's biographer. He |accepted the ideology of the eugenics movement and was preoccupied |with curing social problem by creating a race of superior blue-eyed |and golden-haired people (Pearson, 1912). He was, however, too |good a statistician to repeat Galton's methodological errors or to |accept the Gaussian model on the basis of authority. He used his |newly developed Chi Square test to check how closely a number of |empirical distributions of supposedly random errors fitted the bell |curve. He found that many of the distributions that had been cited |in the literature as fitting the normal curve were actually |significantly different from it, and concluded that "the normal |curve of error possesses no special fitness for describing errors |or deviations such as arise either in observing practice or in |nature" (Pearson, 1900: 174). | |The Myth in Testing Theory | | Pearson's conclusions were not sufficient to stop the |application of the normal curve of error as a norm in assigning |classroom grades or in psychological testing. Most objective tests |that are in practical use today rely on summated scaling |techniques. This means that the person taking the tests answers a |large number of items and receives a total score corresponding to |the number of items that he or she answers correctly. This type of |measurement, which is also used in Likert-scaling in sociological |research, has an inherent bias toward the normal distribution in |that it is essentially an averaging process, and the central limit |theorem shows that distributions of means tend to be normally |distributed even if the underlying distribution is not (if the |means are based on large random samples). This inherent |bias is most likely to be realized if the responses to the test |items are poorly intercorrelated (i.e., if the test or scale is |poorly constructed to measure a central factor). | If a large number of people fill out a typical multiple choice |test such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (or a typical |sociological questionnaire with precoded responses such as |"strongly agree, agree") at random using a perfect die, the scores |are very likely to be normally distributed. This is true because |many more combinations of responses give a sum that is close to the |theoretical mean than give a score that is close to either extreme. |This characteristic of the averaging process is useful in |calculating probable errors in random sampling and is consequently |discussed in elementary statistics books (e.g., Blalock, |1960:138-141). When averaging is used in testing or measurement, |however, it means that the greater the amount of error present, the |greater the likelihood of a normal distribution of scores, even if |the variable being measured is not normally distributed. | All objective tests contain a certain amount of error in that |the chance of a respondent's getting a given item right depends not |only on the central factor being measured but also on other general |factors and on characteristics idiosyncratic to that item (not to |mention the element of luck). Thus it is not surprising that |summated scaling devices tend to give normal distributions. The |problem comes when this tendency is interpreted not as a result of |unavoidable error, but as a confirmation of a preconceived idea |that the variable being measured is in fact normally distributed. | The early developers of standardized intelligence tests were |pleased to find that their distributions of scores were |approximately normal, although they were disturbed by the fact that |perfect normal distributions were rarely, if ever, achieved. |Tborndike (1926:521-555) went so far as to average together scores |achieved by the same respondents on eleven different intelligence |tests in order to achieve a more normal distribution. He thus |repeated Galton's mistake by averaging together somewhat diverse |measures and then assuming that the resultant distribution was due |to the normality of the underlying variable rather than to the |increased measurement error. (The importance of this, of course, |depends on how different the various tests were.) He also |discounted the fact that the intelligence tests themselves |were standardized in such a way as to give normal distribution. | Despite the efforts of prominent psychometricians such as |David Wechsler (1935:34) to counter it, the myth of the bell curve |was widely disseminated in psychological texts (Goodenough, |1949:148-149; V , 1940-16-17; Anastasi, 1968:27) and is widely used |as a criterion for test construction. More modern texts usually |recognize that there is no theoretical justification for the use of |the normal curve, but justify using it as a convenience (Cronbach, |1970:99-100). | The clear assertion by prominent psychologists such as |Wechsler and Cronbach that psychological phenomena are not somehow |inherently normally distributed is a clear advance over the type of |indoctrination that students of educational psychology typically |received in the 1930s and 1940s. This methodological advance |coincided with a general trend in the social sciences away from |sociobiological arguments. The close tie between methodological |presuppositions and ideological concerns is illustrated by the fact |that the myth of the bell curve has recently been reactivated |precisely as part of an attempt to reassert racist arguments about |the biological determinants of human abilities. In his highly |controversial article on genetics and I.Q., Arthur Jensen (1969) |went to considerable length in an attempt to demonstrate that I.Q. |scores are approximately normally distributed. | In 1994, Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray used the phrase |"The Bell Curve" as the title of their widely reviewed book on |Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. While their |book presents elaborate statistical justifications for most of its |assertions, however, the claim that intelligence is normally |distributed is defended on common sense grounds. Herrnstein and |Murray (1994: 557) simply assert that "it makes sense that most |things will be arranged in bell-shaped curves. Extremes tend to be |rarer than averages." They note that the bell curve "has a close |mathematical affinity to the meaning of the standard deviation," a |concept which they use extensively in the book, and remark that: | | It is worth pausing a moment over this link between a | relatively simple measure of spread in a distribution and the | way things in everyday life vary, for it is one of nature's | more remarkable uniformities. | | In reality, there is nothing remarkable about the fact that |measures which contain a good deal of random variation will fit a |measure designed to measure random variation. | The question whether intelligence is or is not normally |distributed is actually irrelevant to the thesis that observed |differences in I.Q. scores between racial groups reflect innate |biologic differences. Jenson, Herrnstein and Murray apparently |introduce the topic of the normality of I.Q. score distributions |because readers who have been led to accept the myth of the normal |curve in other contexts may assume that a normal distribution |proves that the measurement was valid. If the normal distribution |were properly understood as nothing more than a distribution of |random errors, it would not lend any weight to their arguments. |tests. | |The Myth of the Bell Curve in Grading | | The myth of the normal bell curve also lives on in educational |institutions, where students and faculty often casually refer to |"grading on the curve" or "curving the grades." Many |administrators resemble the superintendent of schools in "Elmtown" |(Hollingshead, 1961) in assuming that a normal distribution of |scores indicates that a good job of grading was done. Often, |instructors are expected to turn in an approximately normal distri- |bution of grades and any substantial deviations must be justified. |In a 1970-1972 dispute at a large state university, conflict over |grading and other issues led to a situation in which all but one of |the full-time junior faculty members were fired, denied tenure, or |resigned under pressure (Goertzel and Fashing, 1969). | The initial controversy arose when some administrators became |concerned about the tendency toward "grade inflation" on campus, an |issue that has been of some national concern as well (Jencks and |Riesman, 1968). The dean of the college distributed statistics |showing that the mean grade point average had been increasing over |time and in comparison to other institutions. There was also |considerable difference in the average grades given out by |departments on campus. The Sociology Department was particularly |singled out for its high average grades, and pressure was put on |the department chair to bring his faculty members into line. | One junior faculty member was told that he must use "common |sense" standards in grading that would result in a "more or less |normal distribution" of grades. The teaching assistants in the |chairman's introductory sociology class were given more explicit |instructions: The combined average grades for each of their four |classes was not to exceed 2.6 (or a low B -). Five teaching |assistants were summarily dismissed after they refused to sign a |document declaring their willingness to carry out the intent of the |chairman's directive. | The issue became a major focus of conflict on campus, leading |the dean and other senior faculty and administrators to enunciate |assumptions which are not often states so clearly. They made it |clear that their concern went beyond the question of the "average" |or mean grade. They were also concerned that the number of As be |relatively small. Indeed, they insisted that the usual distribution |of grades should approximate a normal distribution in that most |grades should be clustered around the mean (or C) with relatively |few at the extremes. Most of the spokesmen who supported a normal |distribution said they thought that such a distribution was the |"usual," "natural" or "common sense" result to be obtained from |correct grading procedures. | In a more traditional view of grading as representing |objective academic standards, instructors should grade papers |according to their intrinsic merit and give out whatever grades |result even if the distribution results in a lot of A's or F's. On |tests, an instructor should know, before looking at the results, |what score will be required for each grade. This practice, |however, may be administratively inconvenient for several reasons. |Enrollments may drop if too many students fail. Admissions to |elite programs may be too large if too many students receive high |grades. The myth of the bell curve serves administrative |convenience by assuring that a predictable proportion of students |can be channeled into each strata of the educational and |occupational system. | | |The Bell curve in Theory and Research | | The use of the myth of the bell curve in research serves to |reinforce some persistent biases, as well as to disguise sloppy |research practices. These biased research findings may then be used |to justify the assumption that abilities and talents are normally |distributed and that grades and other social rewards should be |distributed according to the bell curve. | The assumption that social phenomena should be normally |distributed is consistent with pluralist or other multicausal |theoretical models, since a large number of unrelated and |equipotent causes lead to a normal distribution. Indeed, the early |pluralists in political science expected political attitudes to be |normally distributed, since they believed them to be caused by |numerous, equipotent independent factors (Rice, 1928:72). |Similarly, if social status is determined by a number of |independent factors, we would expect it to be normally distributed. |If, as Marxists and others argue, it is largely determined by a |single variable, such as the relationship to the means of |production, there would be no reason for this to be the case. | In point of fact, income is not normally distributed in the |United States or any other known society. Income can be measured |easily in monetary units, this is well accepted. A graph of the |income distribution in the United States can even be found in |Herrnstein and Murray's book (1984: 100), and it is not a bell |curve. Other measurements used by social scientists, however, |provide only a rough index of the underlying trait. If sufficient |error is present in these measuring instruments, a normal |distribution may well result. | Lundberg and Friedman (1943), for example, compared three |measures of socioeconomic status in a rural community. These tests |measured social status by arbitrarily assigning points to the |furniture and other objects observed in the respondents' living |rooms. After applying several tests to the same families and |plotting the resulting distributions, the authors noted: | | assuming that in a random sample, socioeconomic status is | normally distributed, the distortion of the normality of the | distribution by the Guttman version of the Chapin scale | suggests the presence of spurious factors .... | | In other words, the bell curve was used as a standard for |deciding which test was valid. | The commentators on the article (Knupfer and Merton, |1943) were quick to point out that this was an unjustified |assumption. Income, property, education, and occupational status |are not normally distributed; why should socioeconomic status as |measured by a summated scale of the paraphernalia in the |respondents' living rooms be? Yet the assumption that distribution |should be normal is widely used, perhaps in the absence of any |other criterion to demonstrate that a good job of measurement has |been done. A U.S. Forest Service Report (1973:24a), for example, |reports with satisfaction that scores on an index of the wilderness |quality of roadless areas were quite normally distributed. There |is no reason why this should be the case except that the Forest |Service has averaged together a number of possibly unrelated |variables (scenic character, isolation, variety). (In |fact, distribution found by the Forest Service deviates |significantly from normality; but, as if often the case, they did |not check the goodness of fit.) The use of normality as a |criterion reinforces sloppiness in scale construction, since a |sloppy scale has more error and is thus more likely to approximate |a normal distribution. | The myth of the bell curve is also consistent with theories |that assume that social behavior is a reflection of individual |differences (provided, also, that it is assumed that individual |differences are normally distributed). Stuart Dodd (1942:251-262), |for example, used the bell curve in developing his theory of social |problems. A social problem, to Dodd, consisted in a deficit of |some characteristic that is socially desirable. The 2% of the |population that falls below two standard deviations from the mean |on a desirable characteristic are the "minimals," and they |constitute the social problems. These "minimals" include |divorcees, prostitutes, illegitimates; the sick, blind, crippled, |or insane; the poor and unemployed; criminals and political |refugees; inferior races such as Bushmen and Pygmies; the |illiterate or ignorant; the overworked and underprivileged; the |offensively vulgar; atheists; foreign language minorities; hermits |and social isolates. | Dodd was certainly aware that not all phenomena are normally |distributed, and he realized that the two percent figure may not |always be appropriate. Yet, only the assumption of normality led |him to even suggest this figure; otherwise, what possible reason |could there be for suggesting that the divorce rate, poverty rate, |unemployment rate, to say nothing of the proportion of foreign |language minorities, should fall at 2%? | Dodd also used the bell curve to estimate the possible range |of human characteristics, determining that it was unlikely for the |range to exceed 12.5 standard deviations (Dodd, 1942:261-262). He |noted, however, that the range of incomes in our "capitalistic |culture" exceeded 2000 standard deviations. His suggestion that the |variance in incomes should be limited to correspond to the variance |in abilities is perhaps a good one, but more rigorous data show |that the assumption of normality cannot be used m determining the |range of these abilities. Weschler (1935) shows on the basis of |much better data, that the range of human traits rarely exceeds a |ratio of 3:1 (the range ratio of Binet Mental Age scores is |2.30:1). | Nothing in this paper should be taken as questioning the use |of the normal distribution where it is appropriate (e.g., in |estimating confidence intervals from random samples). To make |this correct usage clear, it might be wise to revert to the |earlier phrase, "normal curve of error." This would make it clear |that the normal bell curve is "normal" only if we are dealing |with random errors. Social life, however, is not a lottery, and |there is no reason to expect sociological variables to be nor- |mally distributed. Nor is there any reason to expect psycho- |logical variables to be if they are influenced by social factors. |Certain physiological traits, such as length of the extremities, |are often approximately normally distributed within homogeneous |populations. Other traits, such as weight, which are affected by |social behaviors, are not. Indeed, if a phenomenon is found to be |normally distributed, this is very likely an indication that it |is caused by random individual variations rather than by social |forces. | The myth that social variables are normally distributed has |been shown to be invalid by those methodologists who have taken |the trouble to check it out. Its persistence in the folklore and |procedures of social institutions is a reflection of |institutionalized bias, not scientific rigor. | | | References |Anastasi, A. | 1968 Psychological Testing. New York: Macmillan. |Blalock, H. | 1960 Social Statistics. New York: McGraw-Hill. |Bohrnstedt, E. and C. Bohrnstedt | 1972 'How One Normally Constructs Good Measures, | Sociological Methods and Research, I, 3-12. |Bradley, J.V. | 1968 Distribution-free Statistical Tests. Englewood Cliffs, | N.J.: Prentice-Hall. | |Cronbach, L. | 1970 Essentials of Psychological Testing. New York: | Harper & Row. |Dodd, S. | 1942 Dimensions of Society. New York: Macmillan. |Fisher, A. | 1922 The Mathematical Theory of Probability. New | York: Macmillan. |Forest Service, U.S.D.A. | Roadless and Undeveloped Areas Within National Forests. | Springfield Va.: National Technical Information Service. |Galton, F. | 1889 Natural Inheritance. London: Macmillan. |Goertzel, T. and J. Fashing | 1981 "The Myth of the Normal Curve: A Theoretical Critique | and Examination of its Role in Teaching and Research" | Humanity and Society 5: 14-31. |Goodenough, F. | 1949 Mental Testing. New York: Rinehart. |Herrnstein, R. and C. Murray | 1994 The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in | American Life. New York: Free Press. |Hollingshead, A. | 1961 Eltmtown's Youth. New York: Wiley. |Hoyt, D.P. | 1965 "The Relationship Between College Grades and Adult | Achievement." Iowa City: American College Testing Program, | Research Report No. 7. |Jencks, C. and D. Riesman | 1968 The Academic Revolution. New York: Doubleday. |Jencks, C., et al. | 1972 Inequality. New York: Basic Books. |Jensen, A. | 1969 "How Much Can We Boost I.Q. and Scholastic Achievement?" | Harvard Educational Review 39, 1-123. |Knupfer, G. and R. Merton | 1943 "Discussion." Rural Sociology 8, 236-239. |Landau, D. and P.F. Lazarsfeld | 1968 "Adolphe Quetelet." In Vol. 13 of International | Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences. New York: | Macmillan and Free Press. |Lundberg, G. and P. Friedman | 1943 "A Comparison of Three Measures of SocioEconomic Status." | Rural Sociology 8, 227-236. |Pearson, K. | 1912 Social Problems: Their Treatment, Past, Present and | Future. London: Dulau. | 1900 "On the Criterion That a Given System of Deviations From | the Probable in the Case of a Correlated System of | Variables Is Such That It Can Be Reasonably Supposed to | Have Arisen from Random Sampling." The London, Edinburgh | and Dublin Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science | 50, 157-175. |Quetelet, L.A.J. | 1969 A Treatise on Man. Gainesville, Fla.: Scholar's | Facsimiles and Reprints. Rice, S. | 1928 Quantitative Methods in Politics. New York: Knopf. |Thorndike, E.L., el al. | 1927 The Measurement of Intelligence. New York: Columbia | University Press. |Thurstone, L.L. | 1959 The Vectors of the Mind. Chicago: University of | Chicago Press. |Vernon, P. | 1940 The Measurement of Abilities. London: University of | London Press. |Walker, H. | 1929 Studies in the History of Statistical Method. | Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins. |Wechsler, D. | 1935 The Range of Human Abilities. Baltimore: Williams and | Wilkins. | | |Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 09:27:30 -0600 |From: "Thomas D. [Tom] Hall, THALL@DEPAUW.EDU" |Subject: IQ & Goertzel |X-Comment: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK | |I want to read Ted's post and mull all this over. | |However, I thought I'd share a few things passing the hallways here at |DePauw (Dan Quayle's alma mater--but also Barbara Kingsolver & Vernon |Jordan). By the criteria Murray & Herrs. suggest, old Danny Boy should not |even have gotten into college--If I am to trust the comments from the few |senior faculty members who actually had him as a student. | |The merits of DQ |are beside the point, but I cannot help but wonder how ardent those who |want to use IQ to deny opportunities to some would be if it were more |publicly pointed out that some of their heroes would also be denied! Of |course DQ had access to beau coup $, and as ole bobby zimmerman says, |"money doesn't talk, it swears!" | |If I recall some of Lewis Feuer's work on Einstein, he too would have been |denied. | |random thoughts on a sunny saturday.... | |Tom Hall |thall@depauw.edu |Department of Sociology |DePauw University |Greencastle, IN 46135 |317-658-4519 | | |Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 11:30:31 -0600 |From: FEAGIN2@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU |X-Comment: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK | | This is a section from a textbook of mine, wrtten more than |a decade ago. Some may find it useful for contextualizing the |current so-called "IQ" debate: | | In the early 1900s popular writers, scholars, and members of |Congress warned of the peril of allowing inferior stocks from |Europe into the United States. Kenneth L. Roberts, a prominent |journalist, wrote of the dangers of the newer immigrants making |Americans a mongrel race: "Races can not be cross-bred without |mongrelization, any more than breeds of dogs can be cross-bred |without mongrelization. The American nation was founded and |developed by the Nordic race, but if a few more million members |of the Alpine, Mediterranean and Semitic races are poured among |us, the result must inevitably be a hybrid race of people as |worthless and futile as the good-for-nothing mongrels of Central |America and southeastern Europe." The "Alpine, Mediterranean, and |Semitic races" generally covered countries of heavy emigration |other than those of northern Europe; the Italians and European |Jews were thought by such writers to be examples of " |inferiority." | Half-truths about disease and illiteracy were circulated |about the southern and eastern European immigrants. It was true |in some years between 1880 and 1920 that half the adult Italian |immigrants could not read and write, but in other years the |overwhelming majority were literate. In no year were the charges |of total illiteracy leveled at Italian Americans by the press and |politicians accurate. Particularly hostile was the leap from the |proportions illiterate to assumptions of low intelligence. |In the first three decades of the twentieth century stereotypes |of intellectual inferiority were based in part on misreadings of |the results of new psychological tests inaccurately labeled |intelligence (IQ) tests. The term "intelligence test" is |inaccurate because the tests measure only selected, learned |verbal and quantitative skills, not a broad or basic |intelligence. In 1912 Henry Goddard gave Binet's diagnostic test |and related tests to a large number of immigrants from southern |and eastern Europe. His data supposedly showed that 83 percent of |Jewish and 79 percent of Italian immigrants were "feeble-minded," |a category naively defined in terms of low scores on the new |tests. | With the coming of World War I some prominent psychologists |developed verbal and performance tests for large-scale testing of |draftees. Although the results were not used for military |purposes, detailed analyses were published in the 1920s and |gained public and congressional attention because of the |racial-inferiority interpretation some psychologists placed on |the test results of the southern and eastern Europeans among the |draftees. | In 1923 Carl Brigham, a prominent young Princeton |psychologist who would later play a role in developing today's |college entrance tests, wrote a detailed analysis of the alleged |intellectual inferiority of immigrant groups, including Italian |Americans, drawing on data from army tests. The average scores |for foreign-born draftees ranged from highs of 14.87 for English |and 14.34 for Scotch draftees, to an average of 13.77 for all |white draftees, to lows of 10.74 for Polish and 11.01 for Italian |draftees. The low test scores for such groups as the Italian |Americans were boldly explained in racial terms; those European |groups were then considered inferior "races" or inferior "racial |stocks." These results were used by psychologists such as Brigham |to support the prevalent ideology of "Nordic" intellectual |superiority being espoused by racist theorists such as Madison |Grant. Brigham went on to argue that the sharp increases in |southern and eastern European immigration had lowered the general |level of American intelligence. | The political implications of Brigham's analysis were |proclaimed: immigration limits were necessary. Political means |should be developed within the United States to prevent the |continued "propagation" of "defective strains" in the population. |Here was pseudoscientific support for such government action as |passage of the 1924 Immigration Act, which would severely |restrict Italian and other southern European immigration on |racial grounds. | An important aspect of this stereotyping of Italian and |other European immigrants is the role of the government. The |definition of these immigrants as undesirable racial groups was |stimulated by social psychologists working with and for state |agencies, in this case the U.S. armed forces, and their research |was used by another branch of government, the Congress, to |restrict immigration. | The "intelligence" differences measured by psychological |tests were assumed to reflect the inferior or superior genetic |background of European "racial" stocks. In those decades few |seriously considered the possibility that the linguistic |(English), cultural (northern European American), and educational |bias in the tests and in interpretive procedures could account |for the differences. These debates over the inferiority of |European "racial" groups are now a historical curiosity. No |social scientists today would advance arguments of white ethnic |inferiority on the basis of paper-and-pencil test data. | | Some immigrant leaders developed humorous strategies for |dealing with concern over their intelligence and their "blood" |lineage. One prominent Italian American leader, Fiorello La |Guardia, suffered personal attacks that incorporated stereotypes. |For his criticism of officials such as President Herbert Hoover |he received letters such as the following: "You should go back |where you belong and advise Mussolini how to make good honest |citizens in Italy. The Italians are preponderantly our murderers |and boot-leggers." La Guardia's countertactic was biting humor. |When asked to provide material on his family background for the |New York World, he saw the ghost of "blood" inferiority behind |the request and commented: "I have no family tree. The only |member of my family who has one is my dog Yank. He is the son of |Doughboy, who was the son of Siegfried, who was the son of |Tannhuser, who was the son of Wotan. A distinguished family |tree, to be sure-but after all he's only a son of a bitch." From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 15:05:47 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 15:04:28 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 16:04:26 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: Sociological Forum To: Pamela Paxton Haven't been following this discussion too closely, but Pam makes some interesting points. Haven't read Molotch or Davis, but if you want to see the results of intellectual inbreeding, join PSN and follow their recent disucssion of Herrnstein and Murray's book (which I haven't read). On Sat, 22 Oct 1994, Pamela Paxton wrote: > Here's my contribution to the 'Whats wrong with Sociology' discussion.. > > I agreed with many of the points presented by Molotch. We do write > atrociously and with too many citations. I also agreed with his > claims that Sociologists 'eat' each other when they so freely take > issue with each other rather than celebrating what is good with > someone else's work. This comes from the discipline's diversity and > lack of core. > > I have to disagree with Lisa, however, when she contends that our > factionalization is giving us the ability to look at sociological > problems from a myriad of perspectives. This would only be true if > sociologists bothered to understand each others perspective. > Instead, I feel that sociologists tend to cling to their own > perspective and ignore what other areas are saying about the same > problems. This is partly a function of time - it is difficult to > learn all the different perspectives when you are supposed to be > publishing all day long. It pays off in the short run to get a > perspective and stick to it. > > As for listening to/being listened to by other disciplines, I also > have to disagree. Outside of a few areas in sociology > such as organizational studies and political sociology I think we > aren't communicating with other disciplines enough. We tend to > simply claim their perspective is wrong and leave it at that. > That is not communication. > > I thought both Molotch and Davis were both on target when they > discuss the fear of saying anything of importance or taking a stand. > Molotch couches it in terms of difficult writing but Davis puts it > more clearly - we are afraid of content because content can get you > into trouble. It made me think a bit about the Murray book. > Granted, he is saying some pretty controversial things. But he is > SAYING them. He's out on a limb - and he's getting alot of attention > for it. If we buy Molotch's arguement that we are all shy, then > it makes a bit of sense that we might be afraid to ever have anyone > call us on anything we say. We have to learn to say SOMETHING though! > > I sense that Davis stepped on some people's toes. Was it his > quantitative push? Between him and Molotch, I personally thought > he was the only one to come up with concrete suggestions. > I was left with a 'what can we do?' feeling when finishing Molotch. > There was more of a plan of action in Davis' suggestions. Of course > we may not agree with them BUT at least he put his suggestions out > there. He wasn't 'shy' about his position. > > Unfortunately... > neither of the articles was directed toward graduate students. Most > of the suggestions were for people in a slightly better position. My > question to all of us is, what can WE do about some of these problems? > We are all obviously constrained in our choices. How can > we still move along, publish, get jobs, etc. and not help to > perpetuate the very things we complain about? > > Without giving it much thought, I think our first option is to demand > better writing of ourselves (and of others once we get in a position > to do so). If we make an effort to avoid journalese, to form > writing groups, etc., we'll be taking a step. (I've been in a > writing group for awhile - it only takes up a few hours a week) > > We can also read more on problems and solutions to those problems. > Awareness may be the first step. Reading "making it count" by > Stanley Lieberson made me reevaluate some research I was doing and > attempt to do it a different way. > > Does anyone else have suggestions for what we can do RIGHT NOW to > solve some of the above mentioned problems? I eagerly await them. > > Pam Paxton > > PS. Has anyone else on the list read Lieberson's 'Making it Count?' It > is the best critique of quantitative methods I've read. It gives > concrete solutions to the problems as well. I think that even > 'non-quantoids' would like the book because it also discusses > problems with the way we THINK about social phenomenon. > Hubert Blalock's 'basic dilemmas in the social sciences' is another > great one. He spends a chapter on the problems with our intellectual > climate (more like the stuff we read in soc. forum) while Lieberson > does not discuss those issues. > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 15:06:35 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 15:05:34 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 17:05:29 -0500 (CDT) From: nick mcree Subject: thanks from nick To: socgrad Thanks for all who forwarded the info about subscribing to socgrad! From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 15:58:09 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 15:56:05 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 15:56:00 +0000 To: Lisa Eargle Subject: Re: murray book On Oct 22, 11:53am, Lisa Eargle wrote: > But, the Murrays aren't the only threat. Some of the folks who call themselves > "Multiculturalists" are also just as dangerous. They also wish to exploit and > subjugate like the Murrays. Different actors, different labels, but same > agenda. Oh, please. Am I imagining this, or is this list mostly opposed to (or at least paranoid about) multiculturalism? Murray's agenda is to legitimate inequality and white privilege, and to turn back, neutralize, and eventually reverse attempts by minorities and the poor to gain greater equality and a larger piece of the pie (not that it takes much effort at the moment). Multiculturalism is an umbrella that covers a number of different agendas, but the primary thrust is towards acceptance and celebration of cultural pluralism, where "culture" is interpreted rather broadly. As it seems to be used today, it includes attempts to integrate and diversify the educational curriculum; efforts to create an hospitable climate in schools and workplaces; and attempts to effectively implement affirmative action and anti-discrimination policies. I don't like the term "multiculturalism" because of its emphasis on culture, which misdirects efforts that are really about race, about gender subjugation, about discrimination based on sexual orientation, and so on. But "multiculturalism" is where we are now (as opposed to "diversity" 5-10 years ago). Among proponents of multiculturalism you can find occasional cultural nationalists, people who claim that their culture is superior to anyone else's. (Of course, their numbers do not even approach by a several orders of magnitude the number of opponents of multiculturalism who claim that Western culture is the supreme achievement of mankind.) There's that Latino teacher in Berkeley who apparently hates whites. There are undoubtedly others. Now how exactly is it that these isolated individuals, who probably have only a tenuous hold on their jobs, are dangerous? Lisa says that they "wish to exploit and subjugate", but cultural nationalists have nothing like that on their minds, certainly not ouside their own cultural group; they want to construct segregated spaces where "their people" can immerse themselves in their own culture ("counterhegemonic discourses") and grow strong, outside of the deadening pull of the mainstream. Who are these proponents of multiculturalism who "wish to exploit and subjugate"? I would like to hear about them. I have observed that most whites today are willing to support efforts to ameliorate the effects of past and present racial oppression and segregation as long as it doesn't cost them any significant amount of effort, money, or peace of mind. If there is a cost, they say "look, it's not my fault, I didn't do it, I'm not a racist." This is part of what Larry Bobo calls "Modern Racism". I'm not drawing any inferences about Lisa or anybody else, because I don't really know any of you. My point is that defeating racism (and other forms of oppression) takes some effort, and that the pain of constructing a multiculturalism (or whatever we eventually call it) that is inclusive and positive and yet still addresses core issues (whites DO have to know how they contribute to the oppression of others) is something we should be willing to pay the cost of. Flame at will, but I would prefer constructive comments. Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 16:29:39 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 16:28:22 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 18:28:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: Re: murray book To: Michael Lichter Michael, I don't think that it is fair to assume that because some are wary of what they have seen of "multiculturalism in action," we may be latent racists or afraid of change or losing our comfort level. I can only speak for myself as, like you, I don't know anyone out here in real life. Theoretically, I love the idea of inclusiveness, or respect for other nationalities, genders, and traditions. When I see this noble idea being twisted into a way for some people to grab power in the growing numbers of big money bureaucracies (and I am working in one right now), then it makes me wonder where this movement is leading. Power in the hands of the "wrong" people can do a lot of harm. I have seen this in person, where layers are added into already overstuffed agencies in order to "transform" the agenda to make it more palatable to everyone. What comes out is a lot of jargon that no one can relate to, but to which no one is about to object out of fear for their jobs and reputations. When you see in that documentary and in real life, teenagers who think that they do not have to dress in a neat manner in order to get a job, African-American kids who won't use standard American English because they say that is oppressive, and other similar (and misguided IMHO) impacts of this movement, you have to wonder where it has gone wrong. At least I do. I am a woman. I would like to see more women held up as role models, but we can't invent them where they do not exist, and we can't write imaginary histories about what women WOULD have done had they been "allowed". This is being done here in my own school and all around the country. To me, it seems that something has gone awry... melanie ********************************************************************* "The difference between utopia and a cemetery is that occasionally some things do happen in Utopia." - Ralf Dahrendorf ********************************************************************* From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 20:04:21 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 20:02:48 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 20:02:43 +0000 To: Melanie Subject: Re: murray book On Oct 22, 6:28pm, Melanie wrote: > I don't think that it is fair to assume that because some are wary of what > they have seen of "multiculturalism in action," we may be latent racists > or afraid of change or losing our comfort level. Thanks for the reply, Melanie. I was trying to be careful not to accuse anybody (here, anyway) of anything. It is clear that there is a great deal of hostility here towards multiculturalism, and I agree that what is behind that hostility is, at this point, up for grabs. I think that the distinction you draw between multiculturalism (MC) and multiculturalism-in-action (MCIA) is an important one. Some people are for MC in principle, just as many oppose it in principle. Generic criticisms of MC gone awry, which we hear so often these days (which seem to dwarf in number criticisms of monoculturism gone awry), don't tell us much about the critic, unless the critic chooses to specify the way things SHOULD be. I don't have a problem with these criticisms (to the extent that they are not just misconstruals of what people are actually saying or doing) as long as the object of the criticism is to produce a better MC (or you-pick-the-name-ism). If the goal is to say "this multiculturalism stuff doesn't work, let's just stick with the old Anglo Conformity model", I am not on your side. > I can only speak for myself as, like you, I don't know anyone out here in > real life. Theoretically, I love the idea of inclusiveness, or respect > for other nationalities, genders, and traditions. One point on inclusiveness: I see people using this idea in two different ways. One is an ahistorical "why can't we all get along?", "let's all share some chitlins, matzo ball soup, tacos, and pad thai" approach. Another is an attempt to explore the origins of racial divisions, gender subordination, etc., in an attempt to reach a deeper understanding and create the basis for equal, respectful relations. The former superficial approach amounts to suppression of real differences. The latter approach is generally credited with encouraging Balkanization. I can't cite examples of either that have truly met their goals, but I think the latter comes closer. > When I see this noble > idea being twisted into a way for some people to grab power in the > growing numbers of big money bureaucracies (and I am working in one right > now), then it makes me wonder where this movement is leading. Power in > the hands of the "wrong" people can do a lot of harm. > > I have seen this in person, where layers are added into already > overstuffed agencies in order to "transform" the agenda to make it more > palatable to everyone. What comes out is a lot of jargon that no one can > relate to, but to which no one is about to object out of fear for their > jobs and reputations. There are opportunists and other unethical people everywhere, people who will milk the system for what they can get. I have seen people with little or no real committment to multiculturalism or racial equality use it to advance their own careers or protect their positions (like Ben Chavis' shameful defense of his sexual harassment and financial wrong-doing). But unless you're implying that minorities are more likely to be the "wrong" people, I don't see what this has to do with multiculturalism per se. Your bringing this problem up points to how anything we dislike about efforts to promote racial equality gets attributed to multiculturalism, as if it were an organized movement with identifiable leaders and a plan and connections across the country (things that people dislike about efforts to promote gender equality get credited, of course, to feminism). But multiculturalism isn't a coherent movement. Yes, there are books on multiculturalism, and there are some vague agreements on goals, but there is no clear leadership, there is no real organizational infrastructure (the only national organization I've seen put out materials on multiculturalism is the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of the Bnai Brith, a Jewish organization that opposes affirmative action!) and there isn't even an agreed-upon set of organizing principles. Regarding "pleasing everyone," organizations which take up multicultural programs usually do so in the name of harmony and efficiency, not of thorough-going change, and that is why the resolutions turn out so wishy-washy. That's certainly true of most university administrations (as opposed to dedicated students and faculty members). > When you see in that documentary and in real life, teenagers who think > that they do not have to dress in a neat manner in order to get a job, > African-American kids who won't use standard American English because > they say that is oppressive, and other similar (and misguided > IMHO) impacts of this movement, you have to wonder where it has gone > wrong. At least I do. I don't understand the point about teenagers' dress. In my pre- multiculturalism experience, most teenagers resist dressing up in what business people consider a "neat" manner; I certainly did (and do). Having interviewed large numbers of employers, I now understand that dress is one of the primary cues they use to judge the "quality" of an applicant. But I still don't understand your point. Black English is a touchy subject. I think that if Black English was recognized and respected as a "real" language and black children were taught bilingually (ulp!), this would be less of a problem. This is highly unlikely, however. As things are, although linguists recognize Black English Vernacular as internally consistent and distinct from mainstream American English, Black English IS being suppressed by teachers and others who treat it is as WRONG rather than different, and that suppression IS oppressive. If Black English were recognized and seperated out from mainstream American English (in the same way that speakers of "foreign" languages are taught that their language is one thing, and English is this other thing), the survival of Black English would not be confounded with the need to use mainstream American English for education, jobs, etc., and the the imposition of mainstream American English would no longer be reasonably perceived as oppressive. In any case, this documentary, like anything you get from the media, like anything you produce yourself, is a creation which may reflect only the tiniest part of the reality of what it "covers" -- that one school in Berkeley. What you see is not necessarily representative of even that one school. I didn't see the video, so I can't apply my own "truth sense" to it, but even if it "rings true", you should be careful how much you trust it as a representation of social reality. You also said "in real life", but since most comments here were based on the video, I'm sticking to the video. > I am a woman. I would like to see more women held up as role models, > but we can't invent them where they do not exist, and we can't write > imaginary histories about what women WOULD have done had they been > "allowed". This is being done here in my own school and all around the > country. To me, it seems that something has gone awry... People invent imaginary histories all the time; all histories are imaginary, some just fit the documentary evidence better than others (and thus all are not equally valid). Could you give an example? Do you mean people are making up histories and acknowledging them as made up, as in recent incarnations of goddess mythology? This isn't clear to me. Maybe this is what you mean: there is a particular way in which multiculturalism encourages people to invent history: it encourages them to create a distinct culture with clear boundaries, where before there were only disparate elements with no clear boundaries. An imagined, constructed past is a common characteristic of groupness, though (see Benedict Anderson's IMAGINED COMMUNITIES), so while we should try to be clear on what is supported by the evidence and what is merely post hoc projection, I'm not sure how this is really an indictment of multiculturalism. Michael From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 20:15:47 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 20:14:43 -0700 for Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 22:14:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: Re: murray book To: socgrad I think, Michael, that you and I do not agree, and that it is most likely futile to argue/discuss this. The medium creates a difficult boundary to cross sometimes, as we cannot stop each other and explain ourselves, our meanings, our intentions. As for me, I am going to call this a draw... Melanie From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sat Oct 22 21:32:21 1994 Sat, 22 Oct 1994 21:31:15 -0700 for From: estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 21:31:12 -0700 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: GRE on computer This forum sounds mostly like well seasoned grad students, but in the off chance that there are some newbies or undergrads out there, I'd like to know if anyone has experience with the Cliffnotes GRE prep on disk for Windows/DOS. I really need to get this damned thing out of the way and I feel safer behind a keyboard than a pencil, so maybe I'll do better pretesting as well as taking GRE on computer. Thanks Eric ======================================================================== Eric Strayer |"All that is solid melts into air" | estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu | *** Marx | | "Please accpet my resignation, | * student * beggar * | I don't want to belong to a club that | * dilettante* | would accept me as a member" Marx | ======================================================================== From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 22:21:48 1994 Sun, 23 Oct 1994 17:09:08 -0700 for Date: Sun, 23 Oct 94 19:48:49 EDT From: Alan Subject: Jews in sociology To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU, lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu As another "don't look at me" person in terms of the perception of Jews in the discipline of Sociology, I find it interesting that (1) Michael Lichter brings up the issue of the role of Jews in the discipline (beyond Jewish influences on Durkheim and Marx which has been beaten to death), as well as (2) the fact that very little research, especially in a sociology of knowledge vein has been done on the role of Jews in the discipline. First, Michael Lichter is correct in focusing on the Jewishness of the culture of sociology, at least in terms of the usage of "Jewish" terms by non-Jewish faculty and graduate students who grew up in areas where there might have been 5 Jews in the whole town. Writing from Connecticut probably overestimates this influence, but to hear non-Jews use terms such as Chutzpah and goy to refer to themselves jokingly does say something about our presence in the discipline. Second, there is an elective affinity between the shifting concerns from social integration to pluralism to identity politics in the discipline which is mirrored in the main denominational movements within American Judaism, as well as survey information (I'm allergic to the term DATA). If one looks at Journals, both left-wing and right-wing which possesses relatively large Jewish readership and writership (such as Commentary, Moment, the early Partisan review, the Journal Tikkun), one sees a similar shift. Likewise, if ASA does collect information on the religious affiliation of social scientists, they would probably flesh out the fact that a disproportionate number of people who became Sociologists between 1950 and 1965 (the founding fathers and mothers of many a grad. program) were Jewish. Never mind that elective affinity does not equal causation (witness the Murray debates). Likewise, the most you can probably refer to is a "dominant" or hegemonic Jewish discourse in particular time periods, the period of essentialism is over. Alan G. Davidson From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 22:18:15 1994 Sun, 23 Oct 1994 18:37:51 -0700 for Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 21:31 EDT From: SCOTT BLAKE Subject: Re: Jews in sociology To: DAVIDSON@uconnvm.uconn.edu Being a grad student at Brandeis (particularly a goy) gives one an interesting perspective on Jews in sociology. We do have a few faculty that are not Jewish,but the majority is. Our undergraduate body is about 60% Jewish and the grad student body is something like 20% (almost all of whom are located in the Near Eastern and Judaic Studies Dept and the Jewish Communal Service Program). I haven't the slightest idea what this means since it really never occured to me to think in such terms, but I would be happy to field questions on the subject if anyone wants to push the thread further. scott From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 22:15:32 1994 Sun, 23 Oct 1994 19:22:53 -0700 for Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 20:22:45 -0600 (MDT) From: rebel palm aitchison Subject: Re: Jews in sociology To: SCOTT BLAKE Don't know what it all means either, but before jumping to any conclusions, I'd say it definitely has to do with geographic areas. A quick mental scan of both faculty and grad student body here and I can't think of any Jews at all in our particular dept although there probably are in some other dept. Very heavy presence of gentile-type Anglos and Hispanics here. On Sun, 23 Oct 1994, SCOTT BLAKE wrote: > > Being a grad student at Brandeis (particularly a goy) gives one an interesting > perspective on Jews in sociology. We do have a few faculty that are not Jewish,but the majority is. Our undergraduate body is about 60% Jewish and the grad > student body is something like 20% (almost all of whom are located in the Near > Eastern and Judaic Studies Dept and the Jewish Communal Service Program). > I haven't the slightest idea what this means since it really never occured to > me to think in such terms, but I would be happy to field questions on the > subject if anyone wants to push the thread further. > > scott > From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 20:26:35 1994 Mon, 24 Oct 1994 06:40:46 -0700 for Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:40:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Subject: MA students To: socgrad Are there any other MA student out there that are deciding where & if to go to school next year? Melanie U of Arkansas From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 09:09:18 1994 Tue, 25 Oct 1994 08:59:35 -0700 for Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell Subject: (FWD) AAPOR Call for Papers To: Social Science Data List , Sociology Graduate Student Discussion , Statistical Consulting Discussion FYI; the deadline for submission of a 3-pg. or less summary of your paper is Friday, January 6, 1995. Contact the Conference Committee Chair, James Beniger , for details. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Cassell jwcassell@UNC.EDU Institute for Research in Social Science Phone: 919-962-0782 University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill Fax: 919-962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 USA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:04:55 -0400 From: James Beniger Subject: AAPOR Call for Papers CALL FOR PAPERS Fiftieth Anniversary Conference American Association for Public Opinion Research Bonaventure Hotel Fort Lauderdale, Florida May 18-21, 1995 The past half-century has brought both crises and changes in the conceptualization, measurement, and communication of public opinion. For the 50th Conference of the American Association for Public Opinion Research, AAPOR's Conference Committee seeks papers that illuminate the most salient, challenging, and persistent problems in survey and market research, the study of public opinion, and their applications to social problems and policy. How has our field developed, or failed to develop, over the past half- century? What today are the most promising developments? What are the prospects for our field as we head into AAPOR's second half- century and the coming new millennium? Papers on any topic in public opinion or survey research are welcomed for consideration for next May's Conference. We particularly encourage those who work in the commercial sector to submit ideas for Conference papers, paper sessions, panels, and other presentations. Because this is our milestone 50th annual meeting, we will especially appreciate papers that help to enlighten us on broader perspectives, including: (1) Giving voice to all people, including the capacity of survey and public opinion research to represent minority as well as majority opinions. (2) Hearing the voices clearly, including both long-term developments and the most recent breakthroughs in methodology, theory, and applications to data collection, processing, analysis, and communication. (3) Getting the voices heard, including developments and recent progress in the public reporting of our research, especially in the mass media and in the academic literature. (4) Making the voices count, including the impact of our research on major social institutions, on solving pressing social problems, on public policy, and on the quality of life more generally. More specific possibilities for Conference sessions include: HISTORICAL TOPICS GENERAL METHODS TOPICS The past and future of public Behavioral coding opinion research Cognitive interviewing Fifty-year reminiscences of AAPOR Cognitive pretesting and the field Computer-assisted collection Where we began, and how far we Customer satisfaction surveys have come, in survey methods Design issues What our institutions would look Fieldwork operations like today without survey research Focus groups Fifty years of sex research--from Mail surveys Kinsey to recent national surveys Measurement error Public opinion in Nazi Germany-- Mixed-mode surveys assessing opinion after 50 years Non-household surveys Historical trends in the construc- Nonresponse tion of women's opinions Questionnaire design Social theory on the transformation Response Rates of the public sphere and opinion Sampling Fifty years of the National Election Scaling issues Study series Seasonal adjustment methods MORE APPLIED METHODS TOPICS SURVEY RESEARCH IN SOCIETY Time series analysis linking sur- Public opinion about polls vey data and media content Gender comparisons in surveys Movers of public opinion: cohort Studies of the survey industry replacement, social trends, etc. Reviews of survey accuracy Alternatives to survey research: using verification studies archives, oral history, etc. Handling institutional reviews Use of on-line data and documents: Survey research on health ICPSR for NES, GSS, etc. Adverse effects of pressures Use of on-line media sources like to conduct polls quickly Dialog, Lexes, FirstSearch, etc. Are exit polls flawed, as some Computer-assisted survey systems: recent studies suggest? CATI, CAPI, CASAS, etc. New Asian perspectives on pub- Geographical information systems lic opinion and research Proposed entry barriers to the survey research profession INTERNET/CYBERSPACE TOPICS Survey and marketing ethics Respondent confidentiality Its infrastructure and technology As a means of conducting research As a subject of social and market POLITICS AND PUBLIC POLICY research New proposals for programs for on- Clinton's standing in public line data and documentation opinion and the polls Studies of list servers as forums Poll trends for Hillary, Dole for political discussion Interpreting the 1994 elections Privacy on the Internet; its com- Predicting the 1996 elections mercial exploitation Deliberative polls Public opinion archiving through Campaigning and marketing in university gopher systems new democracies of the world The abuse of statistics for political, racist purposes SOCIAL AND MARKETING TOPICS Claims about public opinion in times of public crisis, panic Social survey studies of violence The role of media and polls in Media violence and public opinion the new European nationalism New pressures on media and effects Manipulation of public opinion on ownership, content, opinion in the Machiavellian mode Media-manufactured "opinion" Who shapes public opinion--the The new American Customer Satis- debate over survey error faction Index From the public sphere to pub- Attitudes toward drugs, drug use lic opinion and poll results Survey literacy for survival Recent debates over "Public Privacy and public opinion Journalism" Again, papers on any topic in survey or market research or public opinion are welcomed for consideration; the topics above are intended only to suggest the range of possibilities. Again, we particularly encourage papers from those who work in the various commercial sectors. Please submit three copies of a brief summary (not more than 3 pages) of your paper by Friday, January 6, 1995, to the Conference Committee Chair: Prof. James R. Beniger Annenberg School for Communication University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-0281 You will receive immediate confirmation of receipt of your submission. Final decisions about acceptance of papers and the composition of paper sessions for the 50th Anniversary Conference Program will be made by February 15, 1995. You will be notified about the decisions concerning your submission shortly thereafter. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 12:19:23 1994 Tue, 25 Oct 1994 12:07:12 -0700 for Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 12:04:10 -0700 From: cplee@netcom.com (Charlotte P. Lee) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Sociology of Communication and Information Technology Programs I'm nearing completion of my Master's degree in Sociology and am beginning the application process to Ph.D. programs. Where can I study Sociology of Communication and Information Technology? Can anyone recommend a Sociology or Interdisciplinary Program? Can anyone direct me to individuals working in this subfield? I am open to the possibility of studying outside of the U.S. although I would prefer to study in the United States. The ASA's _1993 Guide to Graduate Departments_ lists universities with Mass Communication/Public Opinion specialities and Sociology of Science/Technology specialties, but before I have to spend a small fortune calling many of these programs I'd like to narrow the field down a bit by gathering input from as many sources as possible. Also, if anyone can recommend articles or books on the subject of the Sociology of Communication and Information Techology I would find that helpful. Any information or advice regarding any of the above subjects will be greatly appreciated. Thank You. Charlotte Lee cplee@netcom.com From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Tue Oct 25 21:36:57 1994 Tue, 25 Oct 1994 21:31:09 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 21:31:04 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: PhD program: Social Aspects of Computing This isn't what Charlotte asked for, but it's related. I figured others might be interested in this unusual program. The message IS a couple years old, but the program still exists, and Rob Kling's address is still current if you want more info. Also: UCSD does have a graduate program in communications. I was an undergrad in the department in the early '80's before the graduate program even got off the ground, so while I can't say anything about its quality, I can say that La Jolla's not too bad a place to live. Laura might have something to add about the program ... Michael --- Forwarded mail from Rob Kling >From someone Sat Aug 20 13:15:52 1994 X-Ns-Transport-Id: 08002008D0FD0031A372 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 07:54:48 PST From: Rob Kling Subject: PhD program: Social Aspects of Computing To: CPSR-LA.ES_Area@xerox.com COMPUTING, ORGANIZATIONS, POLICY AND SOCIETY at the UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, IRVINE C O R P S Our CORPS PhD concentration provides a fascinating opportunity to study a vital topic: the social aspects of computerization. We encourage reflective inquiry, lively discussions, and avoiding the hype that often surrounds new technologies. The computerization of society is taking place at dizzying speed. Almost every week we're bombarded with information about new computer technologies, and predictions about their influence on emerging social changes. But the real social choices and consequences of computerization aren't really well understood. Public, professional and even many scholarly discussions of alternative ways to computerize are often oversimplified. These are important issues and discussion is being advanced through high quality university-based research. We offer a PhD concentration in the Department of Information and Computer Science (ICS) for people who would like to do systematic research and/or teaching about the social aspects of computerization in their careers. CORPS faculty and students work together across departmental boundaries on specific research projects and seminars with faculty in other schools at UC-Irvine. The CORPS faculty has published many books and articles in this area since the early 1970s. The CORPS concentrations focus upon related areas of inquiry: 1. Developing strategies for designing computer-based systems so that they best enhance the performance of groups and organizations; 2. Understanding the processes and social consequences of computerization within organizations and in society. 3. Understanding the work and organizational worlds where people design, develop, market, distribute, implement, and sustain computerized systems. 4. Evaluating strategies for managing the implementation and use of computer-based technologies. 5. Evaluating and proposing public policies which encourage the development and use of computing in pro-social ways. CORPS studies of these questions have examined many kinds of computerized systems. They include complex information systems, computer-based modeling, decision-support systems, office automation, electronic funds transfer systems, expert systems, instructional computing, personal computers, groupware, computer supported manufacturing and computing at home. Most of these studies are done in the U.S. But CORPS faculty have also collaborated in studies in Europe and the Pacific Rim countries. The central questions vary from study to study. They have included questions about the effects of computerized technologies, ways to manage them, the social choices that computing opens up or closes off, the kind of social and cultural life that develops around computing, their political consequences, and their social carrying costs. CORPS studies at Irvine have a distinctive orientation: 1. focusing on both public and private sectors, 2. examining computerization in public life and homelife as well as within organizations, 3. examining computer-based technologies ``in vivo" in typical settings, 4. employing theories and methods drawn from the social sciences, and 5. encouraging critical inquiry while avoiding utopian and anti-utopian positions. CORPS Faculty The primary faculty in the CORPS concentration hold appointments in the Department of Information and Computer Science and the Graduate School of Management. Additional faculty in the Department of History, the School of Social Sciences, and the Program on Social Ecology, have collaborated in research or have taught key courses for students in the CORPS concentration. The Public Policy Research Organization, an interdisciplinary research institute at UCI, administers the CORPS research projects. The CORPS faculty are recognized nationally and internationally for their scholarship about computerization in organizations and public life. The faculty have published numerous books and articles about these topics during the last 20 years. In addition, they regularly give talks at major conferences about the sociology and management of computing and also serve on the editorial boards of several major journals. Mark Ackerman (Ph.D. Massachusetts Institute of Technology) -- Assistant Professor of ICS. Design of systems for experts in large organizations; social worlds of software developers. J. Yannis Bakos (Ph.D. Massachusetts Institute of Technology) -- Assistant Professor of Management;Economic impacts of information technology; Strategic Information Systems; Corporate Information System Architectures James Danziger (Ph.D. Stanford University) -- Professor of Political Science; Politics of Computing; Computerization and Changes in Work; Computing in the Social Sciences Julian Feldman (Ph.D. Carnegie Institute of Technology) -- Professor Emeritus of Information and Computer Science; Management of Computing Resources Jonathan Grudin (PhD University of California, San Diego). -- Assistant Professor of Information and Computer Science; Computer Supported Cooperative Work; Social Strategies for System Development; Human-Computer Interaction Vijay Gurbaxani (Ph.D. University of Rochester) -- Associate Professor of Management; Economics of Information Systems Management; Information Systems Investment Strategies; Performance Measurement of Information System Organizations; Organizational Implications of Information Technology John King (Ph.D. University of California, Irvine) -- Professor of Information and Computer Science and Management; Management and Economics of Computing; Social and Organizational Impacts of Computing; National Policies about Computerization Rob Kling (Ph.D. Stanford University) -- Professor of Information and Computer Science and Management; Social and Organizational Impacts of Computing; Computing and Public Policy; Computerization and Social Theory; Computerization and Utopian Thought; Management of Information Systems and New Workplace Technologies Kenneth Kraemer (Ph.D. University of Southern California) -- Professor of Administration and Information and Computer Science; Director, Public Policy Research Organization; National Computer Policy; Investment and Procurement Policy; Management of Computing; Organizational Impacts of Computing; Use of Computers in Policy Making Mark Poster (Ph.D. New York University) -- Professor of History; Director - Critical Theory Institute; Postmodernism; Mode of Information; Poststructuralist European Intellectual Movements Alladi Venkatesh (Ph.D. Syracuse University) -- Associate Professor of Administration; Information Technology and the Consumer; Philosophy of Science Perspectives; Sociology of Consumption Nicholas Vitalari (Ph.D. University of Minnesota) -- Associate Professor of Administration and Information and Computer Science; Home Computing; Decision Support Systems; Systems Analysis Organizational Arrangements for CORPS The CORPS concentration is a special track within the PhD program the Department of Information and Computer Science. The ICS faculty evaluates CORPS applicants with the similar criteria to those they use for their other PhD students. CORPS students need strong quantitative and verbal skills. In addition, some prior study of the social sciences is recommended. This concentration is particularly appropriate for students with strong scientific or technical backgrounds who wish to expand their horizons and skills by studying issues of computerization from a social scientific perspective. The program provides an superb opportunity for students with scientific or technical backgrounds to leverage their educations into a new and vital areas. CORPS is a full-time residential PhD program. Financial support is available in the form of teaching assistantships, research assistantships and Regents fellowships for truly outstanding students. CORPS faculty conduct their research through the Center for Research on Information Technology and Organizations (CRITO). CRITO provides key office space and support for research seminars. In addition to CORPS, the ICS Department has research groups in the areas of artificial intelligence, computer systems design, parallel processing, software, computer networks and distributed systems, algorithms and data structures. ICS faculty emphasize traditional computer science as well as research in emerging areas of the discipline, with effective interdisciplinary collaborative ties to colleagues in neurobiology, cognitive science, management, engineering, and the social sciences. ICS currently has 29 full-time faculty positions and more than 110 Ph.D. students, including CORPS. The department is well endowed with computing equipment and networks, including multiprocessor Sequents, and networked workstations. Access is available to all major national and international networks. UC Irvine is located in Orange County, three miles from the Pacific Ocean adjacent to Newport Beach, and approximately forty miles south of Los Angeles. It is within easy drives of 10,000 foot mountains, vast deserts, and beautiful Pacific beaches. The campus is situated in the heart of a national center of high-technology enterprise. The Irvine campus also houses the Western Regional offices of the National Academy of Sciences and National Academy of Engineering. Both the campus and the enterprise area are growing rapidly and offer exciting professional opportunities. The Irvine are offers substantial cultural opportunities in music, the arts and theater. Please write for additional information to: Professor Rob Kling Department of Information and Computer Science University of California - Irvine Irvine, CA 92717 Kling@ics.uci.edu 11/10/92. --- End of forwarded message from Rob Kling From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 26 09:56:38 1994 Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:48:34 -0700 for by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V4.3-11 #5489) id <01HIQBYLP3S09EQIFF@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU>; Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:48:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:48:28 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU From: 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (Christopher Gunn) Subject: Re: GRE on computer To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Eric Strayer (estrayer@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: >This forum sounds mostly like well seasoned >grad students, but in the off chance that >there are some newbies or undergrads out there, >I'd like to know if anyone has experience with >the Cliffnotes GRE prep on disk for Windows/DOS. It has an extremely annoying 'look up and type in a long number' form of 'copy discouragement,' like some game programs. I picked up a copy at Best Buy for $19 or something, to see if I could figure out whether my neurons had decayed much since I last took the GRE (1977 or something!), but the prospect of getting mad each time I cranked up the program has deterred me from using it. (I despise copy protection and its allies for both practical and principled reasons.) Also, the user interface seems pretty crude ('WordStar-like' is the term that comes to mind), but keep in mind that I'm a dedicated Mac-ite and spoiled about things like that. There's a Princeton Review computer-based GRE drill program that looked better to me when I examined the box, but I don't know about copy-protection or user-interface issues with it (except that the possibly-deceptive screen pictures on the box looked better than Cliff's), nor anything about the underlying qualities of the program. It did claim to have drill for the adaptive-test mode of the computer GRE (see below). >I really need to get this damned thing out of the >way and I feel safer behind a keyboard than a pencil, >so maybe I'll do better pretesting as well as taking >GRE on computer. Be careful. If you have convenient access to Usenet, you might check out the newsgroups soc.college.grad soc.college.gradinfo where this gets discussed all the time. The general conclusion is that the computer-based test is harder, since (a) you can't go back and re-think questions after answering other, easier ones; (b) you can't view all of a problem (or reading or whatever) all at once, in some cases; (c) you have to transfer figures to paper to manipulate them (for math, logic problems, etc.), and (d) that the adaptive, test-to-failure approach of *part* (not yet all) of the computer-based GRE is harder to 'crack' than the paper-and-pencil version. But there is a small but highly vocal minority that swears the computer GRE is easier, primarily because of a vastly-superior test-taking environment. Kit Gunn, Univ. of Kansas Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 26 12:08:33 1994 Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:52:09 -0700 for To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU From: CASSELL@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (James W. Cassell) Subject: Existing Qualitative Software list Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 14:32:10 Thought some of you folk might be interested in this list. -- Jim --- Forwarded message follows --- Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 09:56:38 -0800 From: Penny Simpson Subject: Existing Qualitative Software list But there already IS a software discussion group on line! It is called qual-software@mailbase.ac.uk and can be subscribed to through mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk Most of the developers of the various softwares are on it and participate, and it holds broader discussions of the merits as well. Let's not reinvent the wheel! Penny Simpson Simon Fraser University Vancouver Canada From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Wed Oct 26 12:16:40 1994 Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:00:48 -0700 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:00:42 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: AUTHORS' RACIAL BOMBSHELL BACKFIRING IN PRESS Here's some more stuff on Murray. The article claims that the press is trashing Murray, but this should be taken in the context that the press is devoting absolutely enormous amounts of press to it. How do we interpret that? And not all of it is negative; someone on PEN-L said that FORBES likes the book (they like the idea of improving government efficiency by ending transfer payments to the poor and concentrating them on the well-off, where they can do the most good). Michael Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 09:17:23 -0700 From: Nathan Newman Subject: AUTHORS' RACIAL BOMBSHELL BACKFIRING IN PRESS _________________________________________________________________ 10/20/94 10:33 AM Inches: 25.1 REGULAR BC_MURRAY_BOMBSHELL_HNS_10-20 1055 BC-MURRAY-BOMBSHELL-HNS AUTHORS' RACIAL BOMBSHELL BACKFIRING IN PRESS A News Analysis (For use by New York Times News Service clients.) By GARY KAMIYA c.1994 San Francisco Examiner SAN FRANCISCO - Charles Murray is a bomb thrower. Why not? Dynamite has been good to him. He trashed poverty programs in his 1984 book "Losing Ground" and emerged a respected pundit. But it looks like his latest projectile is blowing up in his face. In "The Bell Curve," Murray and his co-author, the late Harvard psychologist Richard Herrnstein, argue that blacks as a group are less intelligent than whites, and that the difference is largely innate. Social programs like Head Start and policies like affirmative action and welfare are therefore doomed to failure and should be ended. As bombs go, that's right up there with denying the Holocaust. And to judge by the reception the book has received, the two theses may have roughly equal merit. The New York Times devoted no less than two major stories to Murray and his book in back-to-back Sunday issues. In a long, subtle profile of the social scientist that appeared in the Times magazine, Jason DeParle paints a picture of a sly conservative, a compassionate sound bite ever at hand, who is psychologically motivated by conflicting needs to win respectability and to outrage polite society. DeParle traces these impulses back to Murray's upbringing in Newton, Iowa, where the brainy young misfit moved "from smart to smart aleck, a transformation he may never have reversed," and established his manhood by hanging out with the hoods at the pool hall. In fact, Murray can't seem to stop announcing his manhood. DeParle records Murray's "manly groan" as a woman in a tube top passes him on a plane. (Memo to CM: It is never a good idea to allow the Meisterbrau-ad persona to emerge when sitting next to a reporter.) Murray feeds him another fat pitch. He happily blurts out that his work is "social science pornography" - and DeParle whacks it. "The phrase may explain more about Murray's influence than he intended, and more than he fully understands. ... His writings comprise a kind of Michelin guide to the American underpsyche." Writing in the Sunday Book Review section, Times science correspondent Malcolm W. Browne restricts his analysis of Murray's theories to a summation of the scientific controversies surrounding IQ tests and statistical inferences. Declining to address the validity of the book's explosive implicit conclusion that much of the measured difference in "intelligence" between whites and blacks is due to genetic causes, he concludes that "The Bell Curve" makes "a strong case that America's population is becoming dangerously polarized between a smart, rich, educated elite and a population of unintelligent, poor and uneducated people." The question, of course, is what to do about this. Even if the underclass really is less intelligent, is this the result of environment or of heredity? Most of the commentators on "The Bell Curve" agree on two points. First, neither the social sciences nor the hard sciences are anywhere near being able to answer this question. Second, Murray and Herrnstein downplay evidence that supports the environmental thesis. Taken together, these critiques deliver a heavy blow to their formidable-looking argument. One of the best guides through these murky waters is The New Republic, whose Oct. 31 issue contains an 11-page adaptation from the book (the Wall Street Journal also excerpted it on its op-ed page) and a number of essays by commentators ranging from Glenn Loury to Nathan Glazer to Martin Peretz. Most of the essays are excoriating, and some reveal bitter editorial disagreements of the sort that ordinarily don't make it onto the page. In a slashing performance, Mickey Kaus blasts "the dishonest book (Murray) has co-authored, and the even more disingenuous article this magazine has now published" and derides Murray's conclusion (in which he issues a feeble call for ethnics, no matter how intellectually inferior their group, to "take comfort and pride in their group affiliations") as "creepy, half-baked tribalism." Henry Louis Gates quotes Frederick Douglass, who pointed out in 1854 that arguments for slavery were based on attempts "to overthrow the instinctive consciousness of the brotherhood of man" - a neat description of what many suspect is the conscious or unconscious motivation behind "The Bell Curve." The mainstream news weeklies also jumped all over "The Bell Curve." Newsweek splashed it on its current cover; their solid four-part package includes an essay on the book, a piece largely defending the validity of IQ testing, one on the impressive achievements of a Bronx high school and a good piece by Ellis Cose ("Rage of a Privileged Class") on how cultural messages about black inferiority can pull down black achievement. Tom Morgenthau's lead essay offers a good summation of "The Bell Curve" and scores some points against it, pointing out that although the authors claim that IQ is going down nationally, in fact it is going up. Time gives the book a spread, concluding that "it looks as if it is likely to be remembered for some dubious premises and toxic conclusions." The last word goes to Jacob Weisberg, whose essay in New York magazine is one of the better assessments of "The Bell Curve." He makes the central point emphatically: "We haven't yet seriously attempted to fix the problems that bedevil lower-class blacks. Indeed, it has been only a matter of years since we identified an underclass, let alone began to understand the hothouse effect by which illegitimacy, welfare dependency, drug addiction, and crime reinforce one another. ... No significant education reform has been implemented on a large scale, let alone workfare. Murray, however, doesn't want new ideas tried. He has a huge professional stake in social programs' failing to do what they're supposed to do. ... One could accept much of Murray's argument about IQ, in fact, and take away precisely the (ital) opposite (ital) lesson: If racial differences are as deeply entrenched as they say, a society that dislikes inequality should redouble its efforts to ameliorate them."  AUTHORS' RACIAL BOMBSHELL BACKFIRING IN PRESS F --- End of forwarded message from LEFT-L@CMSA.BERKELEY.EDU From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Thu Oct 27 22:49:05 1994 Thu, 27 Oct 1994 22:43:00 -0700 for From: Melissa R Herman Subject: comic relief (fwd) To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU (socgrad network) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 22:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Be patient, the funny part doesn't come until the end... > > Attached is some correspondence which actually occurred between a > London hotel's staff and one of its guests. The London hotel > involved submitted this to the Sunday Times. No name was mentioned. > ***************************************************************************** > * > * > > > Dear Maid, > Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my > bathroom since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial. Please remove > the six unopened little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest > and another three in the shower soap dish. They are in my way. Thank > you, > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Room 635, > I am not your regular maid. She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, > from her day off. I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap > dish as you requested. The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your > way and put on top of your Kleenex dispenser in case you should > change your mind. This leaves only the 3 bars I left today which my > instructions from the management is to leave 3 soaps daily. > I hope this is satisfactory. > Kathy, Relief Maid > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Maid -- I hope you are my regular maid. > Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the > little bars of soap. When I got back to my room this evening I found > you had added 3 little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet. > I am going to be here in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my > own bath-size Dial so I won't need those 6 little Camays which are on > the shelf. They are in my way when shaving, brushing teeth, etc. > Please remove them. > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which > we are instructed by the management. I took the 6 soaps which were > in your way on the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your > Dial was. I put the Dial in the medicine cabinet for your > convenience. I didn't remove the 3 complimentary soaps which are > always placed inside the medicine cabinet for all new check-ins and > which you did not object to when you checked in last Monday. Please > let me know if I can of further assistance. > Your regular maid, > Dotty > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dear Mr. Berman, > The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this A.M. that you > called him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid > service. I have assigned a new girl to your room. I hope you will > accept my apologies for any past inconvenience. If you have any > future complaints please contact me so I can give it my personal > attention. Call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you. > Elaine Carmen > Housekeeper > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Miss Carmen, > It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for > business at 745 AM and don't get back before 530 or 6PM. That's the > reason I called Mr. Kensedder last night. You were already off duty. > I only asked Mr. Kensedder if he could do anything about those little > bars of soap. The new maid you assigned me must have thought I was a > new check-in today, since she left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my > medicine cabinet along with her regular delivery of 3 bars on the > bath-room shelf. In just 5 days here I have accumulated 24 little > bars of soap. Why are you doing this to me? > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your > room and remove the extra soaps. If I can be of further assistance, > please call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you, > Elaine Carmen, > Housekeeper > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Kensedder, > My bath-size Dial is missing. Every bar of soap was taken from my > room including my own bath-size Dial. I came in late last night and > had to call the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets. > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem. > I cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our > maids are instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a > room. The situation will be rectified immediately. Please accept my > apologies for the inconvenience. > Martin L. Kensedder > Assistant Manager > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dear Mrs. Carmen, > Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last > night and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars > of Camay. I want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize > I have 54 bars of soap in here. All I want is my bath size Dial. > Please give me back my bath-size Dial. > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed. > Then you complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing > so I personally returned them. The 24 Camays which had been taken > and the 3 Camays you are supposed to receive daily (sic). I don't > know anything about the 4 Cashmere Bouquets. Obviously your maid, > Kathy, did not know I had returned your soaps so she also brought 24 > Camays plus the 3 daily Camays. I don't know where you got the idea > this hotel issues bath-size Dial. I was able to locate some > bath-size Ivory which I left in your room. > Elaine Carmen > Housekeeper > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mrs. Carmen, > Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap > inventory. > > As of today I possess: > > - On shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay in 4 stacks of > 4 and 1 stack of 2. > - On Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay in 2 stacks of 4 and 1 > stack of 3. > - On bedroom dresser - 1 stack of 3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1 > stack of 4 hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2 stacks of 4. > - Inside medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4 and 1 > stack of 2. > - In shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist. > - On northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used. > - On northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3. > > Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks > are neatly piled and dusted. Also, please advise her that stacks of > more than 4 have a tendency to tip. May I suggest that my bedroom > window sill is not in use and will make an excellent spot for future > soap deliveries. One more item, I have purchased another bar of > bath-sized Dial which I am keeping in the hotel vault in order to > avoid further misunderstandings. > S. Berman > ============================================ From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 28 06:54:48 1994 Fri, 28 Oct 1994 06:46:35 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU, Melissa R Herman Subject: Re: comic relief (fwd) Date: 28 Oct 94 08:57 EST Text item: Text Item Funny as the story is, I think that it is a contemporary myth much like the Neiman-Marcus chocholate cookie recipe story that graced the net last year. Someone read this correspondence at a conference I was at over a year ago and the hotel was somewhere in the United States. Barbara ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: comic relief (fwd) Author: Melissa R Herman at NOTE Date: 10/28/94 2:33 AM Be patient, the funny part doesn't come until the end... > > Attached is some correspondence which actually occurred between a > London hotel's staff and one of its guests. The London hotel > involved submitted this to the Sunday Times. No name was mentioned. > ***************************************************************************** > * > * > > > Dear Maid, > Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my > bathroom since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial. Please remove > the six unopened little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest > and another three in the shower soap dish. They are in my way. Thank > you, > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Room 635, > I am not your regular maid. She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, > from her day off. I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap > dish as you requested. The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your > way and put on top of your Kleenex dispenser in case you should > change your mind. This leaves only the 3 bars I left today which my > instructions from the management is to leave 3 soaps daily. > I hope this is satisfactory. > Kathy, Relief Maid > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Maid -- I hope you are my regular maid. > Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the > little bars of soap. When I got back to my room this evening I found > you had added 3 little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet. > I am going to be here in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my > own bath-size Dial so I won't need those 6 little Camays which are on > the shelf. They are in my way when shaving, brushing teeth, etc. > Please remove them. > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which > we are instructed by the management. I took the 6 soaps which were > in your way on the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your > Dial was. I put the Dial in the medicine cabinet for your > convenience. I didn't remove the 3 complimentary soaps which are > always placed inside the medicine cabinet for all new check-ins and > which you did not object to when you checked in last Monday. Please > let me know if I can of further assistance. > Your regular maid, > Dotty > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dear Mr. Berman, > The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this A.M. that you > called him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid > service. I have assigned a new girl to your room. I hope you will > accept my apologies for any past inconvenience. If you have any > future complaints please contact me so I can give it my personal > attention. Call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you. > Elaine Carmen > Housekeeper > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Miss Carmen, > It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for > business at 745 AM and don't get back before 530 or 6PM. That's the > reason I called Mr. Kensedder last night. You were already off duty. > I only asked Mr. Kensedder if he could do anything about those little > bars of soap. The new maid you assigned me must have thought I was a > new check-in today, since she left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my > medicine cabinet along with her regular delivery of 3 bars on the > bath-room shelf. In just 5 days here I have accumulated 24 little > bars of soap. Why are you doing this to me? > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your > room and remove the extra soaps. If I can be of further assistance, > please call extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you, > Elaine Carmen, > Housekeeper > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Kensedder, > My bath-size Dial is missing. Every bar of soap was taken from my > room including my own bath-size Dial. I came in late last night and > had to call the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets. > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem. > I cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our > maids are instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a > room. The situation will be rectified immediately. Please accept my > apologies for the inconvenience. > Martin L. Kensedder > Assistant Manager > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dear Mrs. Carmen, > Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last > night and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars > of Camay. I want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize > I have 54 bars of soap in here. All I want is my bath size Dial. > Please give me back my bath-size Dial. > S. Berman > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mr. Berman, > You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed. > Then you complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing > so I personally returned them. The 24 Camays which had been taken > and the 3 Camays you are supposed to receive daily (sic). I don't > know anything about the 4 Cashmere Bouquets. Obviously your maid, > Kathy, did not know I had returned your soaps so she also brought 24 > Camays plus the 3 daily Camays. I don't know where you got the idea > this hotel issues bath-size Dial. I was able to locate some > bath-size Ivory which I left in your room. > Elaine Carmen > Housekeeper > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Mrs. Carmen, > Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap > inventory. > > As of today I possess: > > - On shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay in 4 stacks of > 4 and 1 stack of 2. > - On Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay in 2 stacks of 4 and 1 > stack of 3. > - On bedroom dresser - 1 stack of 3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1 > stack of 4 hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2 stacks of 4. > - Inside medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4 and 1 > stack of 2. > - In shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist. > - On northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used. > - On northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3. > > Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks > are neatly piled and dusted. Also, please advise her that stacks of > more than 4 have a tendency to tip. May I suggest that my bedroom > window sill is not in use and will make an excellent spot for future > soap deliveries. One more item, I have purchased another bar of > bath-sized Dial which I am keeping in the hotel vault in order to > avoid further misunderstandings. > S. Berman > ============================================ From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 28 07:50:45 1994 Fri, 28 Oct 1994 07:41:25 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 09:27:21 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Myth of the Bell Curve == For Your Information == MAIL VIA INTERNET FROM @VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU:owner-edpolyan@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU TUESDAY 10/25/94 6:19:36 P.M. Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 14:55:48 MST From: Gene Glass Subject: Myth of the Bell Curve The reprint below came in today on AERA-GSL. It certainly must be taken as the final word on the "bell curve." And posting it here might forestall discussion of a lot of irrelevant stuff like whether IQ is REALLY, REALLY distributed a la Gauss, or whether teachers ought to grade on the curve. Herrnstein and Murray used the term Bell Curve in their title, but in no more than metonymically. The nub of their book is hinted at in the subtitle: (approx.) IQ, Race and Class in America. They appear to maintain that IQ is largely inherited (between 40% and 80%), that the racial differences in IQ are largely genetic, that IQ largely determines social class (hence, income, quality of life etc), and that attempts at social amelioration of class disadvantages will fail because of the intransigence of IQ. I think that their argument is littered with non sequiturs, e.g., highly heritable traits can still yield to environmental influences (witness age at death over the last 150 years); and that they ignore the mediating effect that education plays in the IQ --> Social Class chain. Schools at all levels continue to worship IQ scores, and sort and admit on the basis of them with the result that diplomas, licenses and opportunities go to those who test high. Education's hands are dirty in this business. What do others think? GVG -------**********======================================**********-------- Gene V Glass glass@asu.edu College of Education atgvg@asuacad.bitnet Arizona State University 602-965-2692 Box 872411 Tempe, AZ 85287-2411 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- THe following may be of interest, in view of the interest in The Bell Curve book by Herrenstein and Murray. The Myth of the Bell Curve by Ted Goertzel Adapted and condensed from: Ted Goertzel and Joseph Fashing, "The Myth of the Normal Curve: A Theoretical Critique and Examination of its Role in Teaching and Research," Humanity and Society 5:14-31 (1981), reprinted in Readings in Humanist Sociology (General Hall, 1986). Surely the hallowed bell-shaped curve has cracked from top to bottom. Perhaps, like the Liberty Bell, it should be enshrined somewhere as a memorial to more heroic days. -Earnest Ernest, Philadelphia Inquirer. 10 November 1974. The myth of the bell curve has occupied a central place in the theory of inequality (Walker, 1929; Bradley, 1968). Apologists for inequality in all spheres of social life have used the theory of the bell curve, explicitly and implicitly, in developing moral rationalizations to justify the status quo. While the misuse of the bell curve has perhaps been most frequent in the field of education, it is also common in other areas of social science and social welfare. When Abraham de Moivre made the first recorded discovery of the normal curve of error (to give the bell curve its proper name) in 1733, his immediate concern was with games of chance. The normal distribution, which is nothing more than the limiting case of the binomial distribution resulting from random operations such as flipping coins or rolling dice, was a natural discovery for anyone interested in the mathematics of gambling. De Moivre was unhappy, however, with the lowly origins of his discovery, He proceeded to raise its status by attributing to it an -importance beyond its literal meaning. In his age, this could best be done by claiming hat it was a proof of the existence of God. He announced: And thus in all cases it will be found, that although Chance produces irregularities, still the Odds will be infinitely great, that in process of Time, those irregularities will bear no proportion to the recurrency of that Order which naturally results from Original Design .... (Walker, 1929:17). De Moivre's discovery of the bell curve did not attract much attention. Gamblers are perhaps better served with discrete distributions. Theologians, for their part, no doubt preferred to base their case for God's insistence on less probabilistic grounds. Serious interest in the distribution of errors on the part of mathematicians such as Laplace and Gauss awaited the early nineteenth century when astronomers found the bell curve to be a useful tool to take into consideration the errors they made in their observations of the orbits of the planets. Further developments in the myth of the bell curve were left not to the astronomers or theologians but to the early quantitative social scientists. Systematic collection of population statistics began in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries as a response to the social upheavals of the time and the consequent concern with understanding the dynamics of mass behavior. These early sociologists were not concerned with theology, but they were seeking proof of the orderliness of society. Relying on the justifiably great prestige of Laplace and Gauss as mathematicians, they took the bell curve as proof of the existence of order in the seemingly chaotic social world. Unfortunately, the early social scientists often had a poor understanding of the fact that the mathematical formulas of Gauss and Laplace were based on assumptions not often met in the empirical world. As Fisher (1923, Vol. 1: 18 1) points out: the Gaussian error law came to act as a veritable Procrustean bed to which all possible measurements should be made to fit. The belief in authority so typical of modern German learning and which has also spread to America was too great to question the supposed generality of the law discovered by the great Gauss. The mathematicians, on the other hand, did not feel that it was their domain to check whether or not the empirical world happened to fit their postulates. The bell curve came to be generally accepted, as M. Lippmnan remarked to Poincare (Bradley, 1969:8), because "...the experimenters fancy that it is a theorem in mathematics and the mathematicians that it is an experimental fact." Adolph Quetelet, the father of quantitative social science, was the first to claim that the bell curve could be applied only to random errors but also to the distributions of social phenomena (Landau and Lazarsfeld, 1968; Wechsler, 1935:30-31). The myth of the bell curve was part of Quetelet's theory of the Average Man (Quetelet, 1969). He assumed that nature aimed at a fixed point in forming human beings, but made a certain frequency of errors. The mean in any distribution of human phenomena was to him not merely a descriptive tool but a statement of the ideal. Extremes in all things were undesirable deviations. His doctrine was a quantification of Aristotle's doctrine of the Golden Mean, and it is susceptible to the same criticisms. While there may be traits where the average can reasonably be considered to be the ideal, the argument's application is severely limited. One might argue, for example, that average vision is ideal, whereas nearsightedness and farsightedness are undesirable deviations. But is this true of physical strength or of mental abilities, or even of physical stature (one variable for which there is actually substantial evidence of an approximately normal distribution)? Quetelet, like Aristotle, exempted mental abilities, arguing that those who were superior to the average in intelligence were mere forerunners of a new average that was to come. Quetelet's doctrine of the Average Man was ill suited to a society that was more in need of a rationalization for inequality than a glorification of the common man. His use of the bell curve, however, was useful as part of the social Darwinist ideology that was emerging as a justification for the inequities of laissez-faire capitalism. The myth of the bell curve found its most enthusiastic and effective champion in Francis Galton and the eugenics movement of which he was a major founder. The importance that he attributed to the bell curve can be illustrated by the following quotation (Galton, 1889:66): I know of scarcely anything so apt to impress the imagination as the wonderful form of cosmic order expressed by the "Law of Frequency of Error." The law would have been personified by the Greeks and deified, if they had known of it. It reigns with serenity and in complete self-effacement amidst the wildest confusion. The huger the mob, the greater the apparent anarchy, the more perfect is its sway. It is the supreme law of Unreason. Whenever a large sample of chaotic elements are taken in hand and marshalled in the order of their magnitude, an unsuspected and most beautiful form of regularity proves to have been latent all along. The tops of the marshalled row form a flowing curve of invariable proportions; and each element, as it is sorted into place, finds, as it were, a preordained niche, accurately adapted to fit it. Galton went beyond Quetelet not only in his enthusiasm for the bell curve but also in his attempt to gather data to demonstrate its general applicability. He obtained data on a number of physical traits that he was interested in improving, such as height, weight, strength of the arms and of the grip, swiftness of the blow, and keenness of eyesight. The variables tended to be approximately normally distributed, but the fit was not perfect. He consequently converted his data into a type of standard score and averaged the standard scores together (Galton, 1889:201). These average scores fit the fit the normal curve very well as might be expected since he had averaged together a number of largely unrelated variables and created a mean score that reflected little more than random error. Karl Pearson (best known today for the invention of the product-moment correlation coefficient) was Galton Professor of Eugenics at the University of London and Galton's biographer. He accepted the ideology of the eugenics movement and was preoccupied with curing social problem by creating a race of superior blue-eyed and golden-haired people (Pearson, 1912). He was, however, too good a statistician to repeat Galton's methodological errors or to accept the Gaussian model on the basis of authority. He used his newly developed Chi Square test to check how closely a number of empirical distributions of supposedly random errors fitted the bell curve. He found that many of the distributions that had been cited in the literature as fitting the normal curve were actually significantly different from it, and concluded that "the normal curve of error possesses no special fitness for describing errors or deviations such as arise either in observing practice or in nature" (Pearson, 1900: 174). The Myth in Testing Theory Pearson's conclusions were not sufficient to stop the application of the normal curve of error as a norm in assigning classroom grades or in psychological testing. Most objective tests that are in practical use today rely on summated scaling techniques. This means that the person taking the tests answers a large number of items and receives a total score corresponding to the number of items that he or she answers correctly. This type of measurement, which is also used in Likert-scaling in sociological research, has an inherent bias toward the normal distribution in that it is essentially an averaging process, and the central limit theorem shows that distributions of means tend to be normally distributed even if the underlying distribution is not (if the means are based on large random samples). This inherent bias is most likely to be realized if the responses to the test items are poorly intercorrelated (i.e., if the test or scale is poorly constructed to measure a central factor). If a large number of people fill out a typical multiple choice test such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (or a typical sociological questionnaire with precoded responses such as "strongly agree, agree") at random using a perfect die, the scores are very likely to be normally distributed. This is true because many more combinations of responses give a sum that is close to the theoretical mean than give a score that is close to either extreme. This characteristic of the averaging process is useful in calculating probable errors in random sampling and is consequently discussed in elementary statistics books (e.g., Blalock, 1960:138-141). When averaging is used in testing or measurement, however, it means that the greater the amount of error present, the greater the likelihood of a normal distribution of scores, even if the variable being measured is not normally distributed. All objective tests contain a certain amount of error in that the chance of a respondent's getting a given item right depends not only on the central factor being measured but also on other general factors and on characteristics idiosyncratic to that item (not to mention the element of luck). Thus it is not surprising that summated scaling devices tend to give normal distributions. The problem comes when this tendency is interpreted not as a result of unavoidable error, but as a confirmation of a preconceived idea that the variable being measured is in fact normally distributed. The early developers of standardized intelligence tests were pleased to find that their distributions of scores were approximately normal, although they were disturbed by the fact that perfect normal distributions were rarely, if ever, achieved. Tborndike (1926:521-555) went so far as to average together scores achieved by the same respondents on eleven different intelligence tests in order to achieve a more normal distribution. He thus repeated Galton's mistake by averaging together somewhat diverse measures and then assuming that the resultant distribution was due to the normality of the underlying variable rather than to the increased measurement error. (The importance of this, of course, depends on how different the various tests were.) He also discounted the fact that the intelligence tests themselves were standardized in such a way as to give normal distribution. Despite the efforts of prominent psychometricians such as David Wechsler (1935:34) to counter it, the myth of the bell curve was widely disseminated in psychological texts (Goodenough, 1949:148-149; V , 1940-16-17; Anastasi, 1968:27) and is widely used as a criterion for test construction. More modern texts usually recognize that there is no theoretical justification for the use of the normal curve, but justify using it as a convenience (Cronbach, 1970:99-100). The clear assertion by prominent psychologists such as Wechsler and Cronbach that psychological phenomena are not somehow inherently normally distributed is a clear advance over the type of indoctrination that students of educational psychology typically received in the 1930s and 1940s. This methodological advance coincided with a general trend in the social sciences away from sociobiological arguments. The close tie between methodological presuppositions and ideological concerns is illustrated by the fact that the myth of the bell curve has recently been reactivated precisely as part of an attempt to reassert racist arguments about the biological determinants of human abilities. In his highly controversial article on genetics and I.Q., Arthur Jensen (1969) went to considerable length in an attempt to demonstrate that I.Q. scores are approximately normally distributed. In 1994, Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray used the phrase "The Bell Curve" as the title of their widely reviewed book on Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. While their book presents elaborate statistical justifications for most of its assertions, however, the claim that intelligence is normally distributed is defended on common sense grounds. Herrnstein and Murray (1994: 557) simply assert that "it makes sense that most things will be arranged in bell-shaped curves. Extremes tend to be rarer than averages." They note that the bell curve "has a close mathematical affinity to the meaning of the standard deviation," a concept which they use extensively in the book, and remark that: It is worth pausing a moment over this link between a relatively simple measure of spread in a distribution and the way things in everyday life vary, for it is one of nature's more remarkable uniformities. In reality, there is nothing remarkable about the fact that measures which contain a good deal of random variation will fit a measure designed to measure random variation. The question whether intelligence is or is not normally distributed is actually irrelevant to the thesis that observed differences in I.Q. scores between racial groups reflect innate biologic differences. Jenson, Herrnstein and Murray apparently introduce the topic of the normality of I.Q. score distributions because readers who have been led to accept the myth of the normal curve in other contexts may assume that a normal distribution proves that the measurement was valid. If the normal distribution were properly understood as nothing more than a distribution of random errors, it would not lend any weight to their arguments. tests. The Myth of the Bell Curve in Grading The myth of the normal bell curve also lives on in educational institutions, where students and faculty often casually refer to "grading on the curve" or "curving the grades." Many administrators resemble the superintendent of schools in "Elmtown" (Hollingshead, 1961) in assuming that a normal distribution of scores indicates that a good job of grading was done. Often, instructors are expected to turn in an approximately normal distri- bution of grades and any substantial deviations must be justified. In a 1970-1972 dispute at a large state university, conflict over grading and other issues led to a situation in which all but one of the full-time junior faculty members were fired, denied tenure, or resigned under pressure (Goertzel and Fashing, 1969). The initial controversy arose when some administrators became concerned about the tendency toward "grade inflation" on campus, an issue that has been of some national concern as well (Jencks and Riesman, 1968). The dean of the college distributed statistics showing that the mean grade point average had been increasing over time and in comparison to other institutions. There was also considerable difference in the average grades given out by departments on campus. The Sociology Department was particularly singled out for its high average grades, and pressure was put on the department chair to bring his faculty members into line. One junior faculty member was told that he must use "common sense" standards in grading that would result in a "more or less normal distribution" of grades. The teaching assistants in the chairman's introductory sociology class were given more explicit instructions: The combined average grades for each of their four classes was not to exceed 2.6 (or a low B -). Five teaching assistants were summarily dismissed after they refused to sign a document declaring their willingness to carry out the intent of the chairman's directive. The issue became a major focus of conflict on campus, leading the dean and other senior faculty and administrators to enunciate assumptions which are not often states so clearly. They made it clear that their concern went beyond the question of the "average" or mean grade. They were also concerned that the number of As be relatively small. Indeed, they insisted that the usual distribution of grades should approximate a normal distribution in that most grades should be clustered around the mean (or C) with relatively few at the extremes. Most of the spokesmen who supported a normal distribution said they thought that such a distribution was the "usual," "natural" or "common sense" result to be obtained from correct grading procedures. In a more traditional view of grading as representing objective academic standards, instructors should grade papers according to their intrinsic merit and give out whatever grades result even if the distribution results in a lot of A's or F's. On tests, an instructor should know, before looking at the results, what score will be required for each grade. This practice, however, may be administratively inconvenient for several reasons. Enrollments may drop if too many students fail. Admissions to elite programs may be too large if too many students receive high grades. The myth of the bell curve serves administrative convenience by assuring that a predictable proportion of students can be channeled into each strata of the educational and occupational system. The Bell curve in Theory and Research The use of the myth of the bell curve in research serves to reinforce some persistent biases, as well as to disguise sloppy research practices. These biased research findings may then be used to justify the assumption that abilities and talents are normally distributed and that grades and other social rewards should be distributed according to the bell curve. The assumption that social phenomena should be normally distributed is consistent with pluralist or other multicausal theoretical models, since a large number of unrelated and equipotent causes lead to a normal distribution. Indeed, the early pluralists in political science expected political attitudes to be normally distributed, since they believed them to be caused by numerous, equipotent independent factors (Rice, 1928:72). Similarly, if social status is determined by a number of independent factors, we would expect it to be normally distributed. If, as Marxists and others argue, it is largely determined by a single variable, such as the relationship to the means of production, there would be no reason for this to be the case. In point of fact, income is not normally distributed in the United States or any other known society. Income can be measured easily in monetary units, this is well accepted. A graph of the income distribution in the United States can even be found in Herrnstein and Murray's book (1984: 100), and it is not a bell curve. Other measurements used by social scientists, however, provide only a rough index of the underlying trait. If sufficient error is present in these measuring instruments, a normal distribution may well result. Lundberg and Friedman (1943), for example, compared three measures of socioeconomic status in a rural community. These tests measured social status by arbitrarily assigning points to the furniture and other objects observed in the respondents' living rooms. After applying several tests to the same families and plotting the resulting distributions, the authors noted: assuming that in a random sample, socioeconomic status is normally distributed, the distortion of the normality of the distribution by the Guttman version of the Chapin scale suggests the presence of spurious factors .... In other words, the bell curve was used as a standard for deciding which test was valid. The commentators on the article (Knupfer and Merton, 1943) were quick to point out that this was an unjustified assumption. Income, property, education, and occupational status are not normally distributed; why should socioeconomic status as measured by a summated scale of the paraphernalia in the respondents' living rooms be? Yet the assumption that distribution should be normal is widely used, perhaps in the absence of any other criterion to demonstrate that a good job of measurement has been done. A U.S. Forest Service Report (1973:24a), for example, reports with satisfaction that scores on an index of the wilderness quality of roadless areas were quite normally distributed. There is no reason why this should be the case except that the Forest Service has averaged together a number of possibly unrelated variables (scenic character, isolation, variety). (In fact, distribution found by the Forest Service deviates significantly from normality; but, as if often the case, they did not check the goodness of fit.) The use of normality as a criterion reinforces sloppiness in scale construction, since a sloppy scale has more error and is thus more likely to approximate a normal distribution. The myth of the bell curve is also consistent with theories that assume that social behavior is a reflection of individual differences (provided, also, that it is assumed that individual differences are normally distributed). Stuart Dodd (1942:251-262), for example, used the bell curve in developing his theory of social problems. A social problem, to Dodd, consisted in a deficit of some characteristic that is socially desirable. The 2% of the population that falls below two standard deviations from the mean on a desirable characteristic are the "minimals," and they constitute the social problems. These "minimals" include divorcees, prostitutes, illegitimates; the sick, blind, crippled, or insane; the poor and unemployed; criminals and political refugees; inferior races such as Bushmen and Pygmies; the illiterate or ignorant; the overworked and underprivileged; the offensively vulgar; atheists; foreign language minorities; hermits and social isolates. Dodd was certainly aware that not all phenomena are normally distributed, and he realized that the two percent figure may not always be appropriate. Yet, only the assumption of normality led him to even suggest this figure; otherwise, what possible reason could there be for suggesting that the divorce rate, poverty rate, unemployment rate, to say nothing of the proportion of foreign language minorities, should fall at 2%? Dodd also used the bell curve to estimate the possible range of human characteristics, determining that it was unlikely for the range to exceed 12.5 standard deviations (Dodd, 1942:261-262). He noted, however, that the range of incomes in our "capitalistic culture" exceeded 2000 standard deviations. His suggestion that the variance in incomes should be limited to correspond to the variance in abilities is perhaps a good one, but more rigorous data show that the assumption of normality cannot be used m determining the range of these abilities. Weschler (1935) shows on the basis of much better data, that the range of human traits rarely exceeds a ratio of 3:1 (the range ratio of Binet Mental Age scores is 2.30:1). Nothing in this paper should be taken as questioning the use of the normal distribution where it is appropriate (e.g., in estimating confidence intervals from random samples). To make this correct usage clear, it might be wise to revert to the earlier phrase, "normal curve of error." This would make it clear that the normal bell curve is "normal" only if we are dealing with random errors. Social life, however, is not a lottery, and there is no reason to expect sociological variables to be nor- mally distributed. Nor is there any reason to expect psycho- logical variables to be if they are influenced by social factors. Certain physiological traits, such as length of the extremities, are often approximately normally distributed within homogeneous populations. Other traits, such as weight, which are affected by social behaviors, are not. Indeed, if a phenomenon is found to be normally distributed, this is very likely an indication that it is caused by random individual variations rather than by social forces. The myth that social variables are normally distributed has been shown to be invalid by those methodologists who have taken the trouble to check it out. Its persistence in the folklore and procedures of social institutions is a reflection of institutionalized bias, not scientific rigor. References Anastasi, A. 1968 Psychological Testing. New York: Macmillan. Blalock, H. 1960 Social Statistics. New York: McGraw-Hill. Bohrnstedt, E. and C. Bohrnstedt 1972 'How One Normally Constructs Good Measures, Sociological Methods and Research, I, 3-12. Bradley, J.V. 1968 Distribution-free Statistical Tests. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall. Cronbach, L. 1970 Essentials of Psychological Testing. New York: Harper & Row. Dodd, S. 1942 Dimensions of Society. New York: Macmillan. Fisher, A. 1922 The Mathematical Theory of Probability. New York: Macmillan. Forest Service, U.S.D.A. Roadless and Undeveloped Areas Within National Forests. Springfield Va.: National Technical Information Service. Galton, F. 1889 Natural Inheritance. London: Macmillan. Goertzel, T. and J. Fashing 1981 "The Myth of the Normal Curve: A Theoretical Critique and Examination of its Role in Teaching and Research" Humanity and Society 5: 14-31. Goodenough, F. 1949 Mental Testing. New York: Rinehart. Herrnstein, R. and C. Murray 1994 The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life. New York: Free Press. Hollingshead, A. 1961 Eltmtown's Youth. New York: Wiley. Hoyt, D.P. 1965 "The Relationship Between College Grades and Adult Achievement." Iowa City: American College Testing Program, Research Report No. 7. Jencks, C. and D. Riesman 1968 The Academic Revolution. New York: Doubleday. Jencks, C., et al. 1972 Inequality. New York: Basic Books. Jensen, A. 1969 "How Much Can We Boost I.Q. and Scholastic Achievement?" Harvard Educational Review 39, 1-123. Knupfer, G. and R. Merton 1943 "Discussion." Rural Sociology 8, 236-239. Landau, D. and P.F. Lazarsfeld 1968 "Adolphe Quetelet." In Vol. 13 of International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences. New York: Macmillan and Free Press. Lundberg, G. and P. Friedman 1943 "A Comparison of Three Measures of SocioEconomic Status." Rural Sociology 8, 227-236. Pearson, K. 1912 Social Problems: Their Treatment, Past, Present and Future. London: Dulau. 1900 "On the Criterion That a Given System of Deviations From the Probable in the Case of a Correlated System of Variables Is Such That It Can Be Reasonably Supposed to Have Arisen from Random Sampling." The London, Edinburgh and Dublin Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science 50, 157-175. Quetelet, L.A.J. 1969 A Treatise on Man. Gainesville, Fla.: Scholar's Facsimiles and Reprints. Rice, S. 1928 Quantitative Methods in Politics. New York: Knopf. Thorndike, E.L., el al. 1927 The Measurement of Intelligence. New York: Columbia University Press. Thurstone, L.L. 1959 The Vectors of the Mind. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Vernon, P. 1940 The Measurement of Abilities. London: University of London Press. Walker, H. 1929 Studies in the History of Statistical Method. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins. Wechsler, D. 1935 The Range of Human Abilities. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins. From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Fri Oct 28 08:00:13 1994 Fri, 28 Oct 1994 07:50:54 -0700 for From: blovitts@nsf.gov Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 09:37:59 EST To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Myth of the Bell Curve -- Comment Socgradders, I just forwarded a somewhat lengthy piece that was on Education Policy Analysis Forum on the myth of the bell curve. I apologize to those on the net whose systems this may clog up as well as to those who cannot open the text file (I couldn't attach comments to it before sending). The piece is adapted and condensed from: Ted Goertzel and Joseph Fashing, "The Myth of the Normal Curve: A Theoretical Critique and Examination of its Role in Teaching and Research," Humanity and Society. 5:14-31 (1981), reprinted in Readings in Humanistic Sociology (General Hall, 1986). Very briefly, the article explores the history of the development and (mis)use of the bell curve, and makes a pursuasive statistical argument that social phenomena are not normally distributed and therefore do not conform to, and cannot be analyzed, using a bell curve. A few paragraphs about Murray and his use of the bell curve are included in the piece that was posted on EPAF by the author. The Murray controversy aside, the article would be worthwhile for use in any undergraduate (and graduate) sociology class. Hope you were able to open the text file, if not, it is well worth a stroll to the library. Barbara From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 30 06:24:40 1994 Sun, 30 Oct 1994 06:15:45 -0800 for Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 07:30:50 EST From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Of Paradigms and Certitude To: soc/grad@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU New Mini-Lectures. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- After some exchange on the soc/grad network, Micheal Lichter informed me that there was enough interest in these mini-lectures to keep them available to members of soc/grad for a while...I am pleased to know that. In response, I will offer two series of mini-lectures; the first on postmodern knowledge processes, the second series on Self and Society to take us through the rest of this semester. I do hope that you will find both series useful to your work...more than that, I want to give each of you a running start on the task of re-inventing sociology as you move into the fullness of your career in the 21st century. CHAOS/COMPLEXITY AND POSTMODERN PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE A. There have been two great turning points in the knowledge process in human history...the first began some 400,000 years ago as premodern knowledge processes evolved to give us the capacity to construct social forms and social relationships which reach beyond biology and physiology. The second began in the hills of Akkad in the Middle East some 4000 years ago with the development of what would be modern mathematics. Morris Kline has a wonderful 3 vol. work on that history for those of you so inclined. Its well worth the time. Some 400 years ago, Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo and above all, Newton provided the grounds for the modern epoch in the knowledge process. Scarcely 40 years ago, in 1955, the term, postmodern appeared to refer to a new architecture which abandoned the neat and tidy squares, tri-angles, circles and straight lines of modern architecture. Soon the concept spread to art, music, drama and now, to the social sciences. I will focus on the essentials of postmodernity in the second lecture but for now, I have promised some grad students at UC/San Diego that I would talk about Chaos/Complexity theory and its meaning for the philosophy of science so they can work with a faculty person there in some research about NAFTA and its meaning for a theory of value...if pushed, I'll do a mini-lecture on theory of value and why it is important to sociology. Meantime, do read, Post-Modernism and the Social Sciences by Pauline Marie Rosenau, 1991, Princeton Univ. Press...it is the most lucid, accessible intro to Pomo that I know. B. CHAOS/COMPLEXITY AND THE KNOWLEDGE PROCESS. In 1962, Ed Lorenz, a meteorologist discovered that nonlinear transformations in weather dynamics produced more than one outcome from the same data set. That finding led to an explosion of research in math, physics, chemistry, biology and now, economics, psychology, and nonlinear social dynamics. It is very important to note that modern science permits one and only one outcome basin in an outcome field; chaos theory permits one, two, four, eight or an infinity. This finding grounds a new paradigm in the knowledge process. Again, it is not that new variables are discovered to explain the different outcome; it is not faulty equipment, bad theory, observer bias or incompetent measurement that explains differing results in the same data base...these do complicate the knowledge process but, as it turns out, nonlinear dynamics produce ever more complex causal patterns. There are two intro books one can read to get a start on Chaos theory; the first by James Gleick, called Chaos; the second a charming little work by Briggs and Peat entitled 'Turbulent Mirror.' A delightful exposition. There is a good intro to Complexity Theory by MM Waldorp, a 1992 book published by Touchstone. It reports work at the Sante Fe Institute where chaos theory is used to explicate nonlinear dynamics in a wide variety of complex systems...all this gives you a head start on this most engaging field....most sociologists go blank when you talk about it. C. Postmodern Philosophy of Science. Given the relevance of chaos theory to such social dynamics as racism, crime, poverty, stratification, the emergence of new marriage forms and, perchance warfare, the question becomes how to do research in a postmodern modality? The answer is just now emerg- ing. In brief, one uses new techniques from math and physics to find 'hidden attractors' in your data sets. A hidden attractor is a pattern of behavior which may be tight or loose depending on the way key variables interact. The implications for the knowledge process are profound. I'll walk you through some of the more interesting. But first you must promise to not despair...in a very short time, months at most, you will be seeing possibilities and gaining insights not possible in the modernist paradigm. 1. Order. In modern science, order is given great standing. If research can offer correlations with probabilities of .05, .01, .001 or more, great acclaim is made and great honor accorded the researcher. Not so in this new paradigm emerging. Chaos/Complexity studies the changing 'mix' of order and disorder. The object of the research process is to find just what produces this transformation from simple dynamics to complex dynamics. Just what produces new forms of crime, new forms of marriage, new forms of gender relations, new patterns in teen age pregnancy or new ways to do science itself...lots of work to be done in the next century. 2. Causality. In modern science, causality must fit aristotlean logic, euclidean geometry, newtonian physics, leibnizean calculus and cartesian certainty. If it does not, then modern science appeals to chance, to observer error, to faulty instrumentation or observer fault to explain the different causal patterns. Chaos theory presumes a series of dynamical regimes [for our purposes, there are five such regimes], each of which has ever more looser patterns of 'causality.' Causality itself is replaced with the concept of feedback...it becomes very important to know what kind of feedback is operating since positive feedback can drive a system to deep chaos; negative feedback can drive it to extinction; nonlinear feedback can maintain a certain semi-stability. For social policy, it becomes very important to know which kinds of feedback produces which kinds of attractors/patterns. 3. The Method of Successive Approximations. In modern science there is the presumption that there is a stable set of laws which define the behavior of a system...that each generation of researchers builds upon the work of the past generation to zero in on a final, grand unified coherent and complete theory of some kind of human behavior. Since the behavior of a given system [economic, religious, political or kinship] varies with dynamical regime, since new forms with new dynamics are ever more emerging out of the forms of feedback, it is not possible to end the history of a given field by proclaiming a final victory for this or that theory. Theory becomes a stopping off place in time and space with which to explain what happens until the next small change produces entirely new forms of life, marriage, crime, or perchance, religion. 4. Replicability. The method of successive approximations gives great honor to those who replicate the findings of, say, Durkheim, MaxWeber, Marx or Milton Friedman. This postmodern phil/sci, informed by Chaos/ Complexity does not acclaim the graduate student who confirms Weber nor yet does it necessarily dismiss the graduate student whose data yeilds other results. 5. Falsifiability. It was Karl Popper who elevated falsifiability to its present status as the final adjudicator of the worth of a theory and the work of the researcher. One could never accept with absolute confidence, that a theory was true for all time and all place since the observations had not been made for all time and all places. But one could say that one must accept a 'null' hypothesis. All that is changed. A researcher could find grounds to reject a hypothesis in one region of an outcome field but grounds for accepting it in another region. That which is false in one region of time/space may be true in another...again with the 'same' set of interacting variables. A couple of points before I stop...first, most of the research technology of modern science remains most useful to the knowledge process; many of the findings are stable enough to serve both knowledge and policy built on it. Second, it is my considered view that all three forms of knowledge, premodern, modern and postmodern are essential to the knowledge process. In the last of this series, I will lay out what I believe to be the lasting contributions of each to the human project. Finally, I have a series of articles in print and pre-print which makes these points above in some detail...I can give you a disk full of my stuff as well as a brief tutorial/glossary in hard copy if you give me a snail mail address. Then, too, you may want to down load this mini-lecture for future reference...and if you want to use any of this material in your own work, just cite it as a mini-lecture on the soc/grad network on this day. Trust this has been worth the reading...have a good week...more later. T. R. Young From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Sun Oct 30 07:28:48 1994 Sun, 30 Oct 1994 07:19:07 -0800 for Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 10:17:41 EST From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Verification To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Would someone on socgrad verify receipt of a new mini-lecture on Chaos, Complexity and Postmodern Phil/Sci...it should have come through about 10am this morning, a Sunday...but there was a glitch in the power supply just as I sent it and I'm not certain whether it came through...if not, I'll repost it. T.R. Young From list-relay@UCSD.EDU Mon Oct 31 23:08:04 1994 Mon, 31 Oct 1994 23:06:55 -0800 for From: lichter@nicco.sscnet.ucla.edu (Michael Lichter) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 23:06:47 +0000 To: socgrad@UCSD.EDU Subject: Internet in the Classroom Here are some more ideas re. using the net for teaching for whoever it was that asked about it last week. BTW, nobody has said anything about TR's Sunday sermon. I hate to go over this territory again, but can anybody explain not what chaos theory is or does but why this theory, developed to describe the behavior of complex but rule-bound and non-sentient systems, is applicable to not-entirely-rule-bound sentient humans? Also, anybody know the connection of chaos theory to Social Entropy Theory? Michael --- Forwarded mail from IERN-L@ube.ubalt.edu >From owner-iern-l@ube.ubalt.edu Mon Oct 31 18:19 PST 1994 Warnings-To: <> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 21:04:15 +0001 (EST) From: Roy Adams Subject: Re: Internet in the Classroom To: IERN-L@ube.ubalt.edu John: Here are some untested ideas, stuff I have discussed orally with people or have heard about: 1. With all students on the net set a time and place for an on line interview and q and a session with Dr. Whizbang on the other side of the world. Somebody you would like to but can't afford to fly in. 2. With all students on a dedicated listserv (like the one that Clive mentioned that links students in three universities) have them deposit drafts of their papers at a gopher site so that other students can read and comment on them. Or just have the students post there papers as an email message. 3. Have students on a dedicated listserv upload questions as they think of them and invite other students to respond. 4. Count participation on the net as part of the overall participation grade for the course or give bonus marks for such participation. 5. Have students from two or more universities form groups to carry out research projects and write papers together. 6. Have students log into nets like IERN-L and Labor-L where even if they say nothing the "lurking" is instructive. I know that lots of Richard Hannah's students are lurking on IERN-L right now and so are mine. 7. One complaint that I have heard from some profs is that some students, especially grad students, try to use the net as a shortcut to doing their own work. A typical post might be: "I am about to launch a research project on the determinants of fuzzywump, can anybody help me out with references?" I am not saying that I disapprove just that I have heard complaints along that line. I would very much appreciate it if Richard Hannah and Clive Gilson would be more specific about what they ask their students to do. cheers, roy vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Roy J. Adams Ph: 905-525-9140, ext 23965 McMaster University Fax: 905-527-0100 Hamilton, Canada L8S 4C7 "NO REGULATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, John Lawler wrote: > My university is interested in encouraging greater use of the Internet as a > teaching tool. I would appreciate receiving information on any experience > you might have had with the Internet specifically as a classroom tool in the > HRM or IR areas. Untested ideas in this area are also welcomed. > > > John J. Lawler Internet: jlawler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Institute of Labor and Phone: (217)333-1482 > Industrial Relations Fax: (217)244-4091 > University of Illinois > 504 East Armory Street > Champaign, IL 61820 > --- End of forwarded message from IERN-L@ube.ubalt.edu