From joly@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu Mon Sep 30 09:41:43 1996 Received: from cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (cholera.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.252.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA12383 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:41:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (daemon@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.232.3]) by cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id KAA00796 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:41:41 -0500 Received: from ntcs-ip28.uchicago.edu by cicero.spc.uchicago.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.4/UofC3.0) id AA28145; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:41:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:41:39 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: joly@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (Jolyon Wurr) Subject: Re: Luck be a Lady Tonight: Gambling in a Time of Trouble Dear Christian and Other List Participants, I don't find T.R. Young's lectures condescending. I've got no problem with professors participating on this list. I have no trouble deleting messages I don't care to read. I thank T.R. for his extraordinary and on-going participation and hope that it will continue. On this list and many others, I've been surprised and disturbed by the amount of energy people devote to the cause of policing the contributions of others, and promulgating rules or "netiquette" designed to exclude or repress. I feel that, in the interests of free, diverse, and lively exchange, we would do better to err on the side of encouraging participation and inclusion. While I do not dismiss the effects that status distinctions and the attendant power asymmetries (such as "professor" or "student") have on discourse, I think that, in e-mail list exchanges, these are relatively minor compared to the asymmetry of being a single voice sending messages out into a potentially vast group of largely unknown others. Yet, like much public participation, this is the unavoidable social cost which one must be willing to bear if one is to join the discussion. While critical discussion is essential, I think that the frequent move toward discussions of banishment and repression is unfortunate, and will only serve to raise the context of social intimidation within which individuals make the decision of whether or not to participate. Jolyon Wurr Sociology Graduate Student >T R. Young wrote: > >> In this mini-lecture, I will focus upon .... > >Does this bug any other 'students' on this list? Mr. Young I don't >appreciatte "lectures". I find it to be a stultifying pedagogical >method. It is the pedagogical mode employed people who 'know' to tell >those who supposedly 'don't know'...its oppressive. > >Why do you participate in this list anyway? Aren't you a Professor? >This should be a forum "for and by" Soc. Graduate students...free from >the power relations involved upon inserting Professorial lectures into >the list. Graduate Students need spaces they are equal players in a >community of scholars. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be on the >list (its a free country)...I am suggesting that you reevaluate your >role and purpose on the list. If you want to discuss topics with us or >provide advice when appropriatte that would be wonderful. However this >"mini-lecture" is mega-condescending. > >Just letting you know, > >Christian From dow2@Ra.MsState.Edu Mon Sep 30 10:46:22 1996 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id KAA14379 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu (dow2@Ra.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.10]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id LAA25804; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:45:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (dow2@localhost); by Ra.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.0c-FWP); id LAA16857; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:45:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:45:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Danny O. Winbush" To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Personally, I have never felt T.R.'s mini lecture to be particularly threatening to me, indeed, I welcome his comments. This doesn't necessarily mean that I accept everything that he says but I do find his comments to be enlightening from time to time. I am appreciative of him that he would take his time to consort with this list. Even if I didn't like him I would still be interested in his input. I hope that I never get to the point where I am not interested in all possible opinions on any subject matter, even those of which I may not necessarily agree. I believe that T.R. does contribute to this list and his absence from it would be at the list expense not his. "Grace is the violet that leaves the fragrance on the heel that crushes it." unknown xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Danny O. Winbush dow2@Ra.MsState.Edu. http://www2.msstate.edu/~dow2 Dum anima est, spes est. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From Ologygrad@aol.com Mon Sep 30 11:18:59 1996 Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA15781 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:18:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Ologygrad@aol.com Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA17347 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:18:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:18:56 -0400 Message-ID: <960930131855_533686049@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff I'm very surprised by all the responses thus far that have dismissed and/or ignored Christian's point about the power involved in teacher-to-student/lecturer-to-learner relationships. Please tell me that there are more of you out there who recognize this power differential, feel it's important to identify and address, and find it problematic in at least some ways. Ivy Kennelly From verdesc@cats.ucsc.edu Mon Sep 30 11:47:03 1996 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA20050 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:47:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from verdesc.ucsc.edu by cats.ucsc.edu with SMTP id KAA02397; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:46:11 -0700 Message-ID: <325007FB.2D5F@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:48:44 -0700 From: Christian Organization: Dept. of Sociology MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: T.R. Young References: <199609301422.IAA09636@csf.Colorado.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy M. Chester wrote: > > > There have been a lot of you out there this weekend beating up on my > friend, and I think that if most of you knew him, you would see that your > comments are shortsighted. He is a fair, gentle, and brilliant scholar, > and above all else a teacher -- and that is a rare combination these days. > > I don't have time to respond to everyones concerns and this was the last message that i got about this. Come on!!! I have said NIL about TR Young's personal characteristics. I'm not beating him up...I just don't want to be "lectured" at. And his response did not indicate that he felt I was mistreating him. I am familiar with both Young and the Red Feather INst. Our interests are ironically, quite similar, I enjoy his work. Yet In his last reply he still seems to want to occupy the role of Professor/Overseer on this list. If he would abandon the lecture "talkin at us" style and rather see his viewpoint as on of many contributions than (as I've said 3 times now, at least) I welcome his contributions. Gotta Run...C-YA!! Christian p.s. Has anyone else read "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" by Paulo Freire? If you have would you please post some of your thoughts on this peice? It might prove quite interesting. From baubb@UDel.Edu Mon Sep 30 11:53:44 1996 Received: from UCSD.EDU (mailbox2.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.54]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA20757 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by UCSD.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA10024 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strauss.udel.edu (strauss.udel.edu [128.175.13.74]) by copland.udel.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA00008 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:53:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert S Gossweiler To: SOCGRAD Subject: Re: T.R. Young In-Reply-To: <199609301422.IAA09636@csf.Colorado.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One solution may be for Young to place his lectures on a web page somewhere (in this way he could expand his potential audience, revise the lectures-- perhaps even ask us students to help rewrite them...), and that socgrad students interested in discussing them could do so, much like the wonderful suggestion a long time ago about reading an article/book a month (what ever happened to that, by the way?). Consequently, Young would have his lectures, and socgrad could maintain the discussion side of things. Bob G. Robert S. Gossweiler, Email: baubb@strauss.udel.edu U.of DE, Soc.Dept., Center for Drug & Alcohol Studies From vvinson@cwis.unomaha.edu Mon Sep 30 12:43:40 1996 Received: from cwis.unomaha.edu ([137.48.1.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA26692 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:43:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by cwis.unomaha.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA07834; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:43:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:43:28 -0500 (CDT) From: VALERIE VINSON To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Lectures and Learning In-Reply-To: <960930.063117.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To Socgrad members, I usually do not participate in the discussions on this list but this is one that I could not sit back and be silent on. I have been on this list for 2 years now and the most relevant info that I have received have been from T.R. Young mini-series or lectures. They have been quite useful in the classroom when instructing undergraduates and they have also been useful because he is one of the few professors who is not afraid to tell the truth about certain issues that other sociologists are afraid to discusss > > 2. The Socgrad Network should, indeed, be 'free from power relations' > as Christian stated. When another student raised the same > question [my involvement in socgrad] two years ago, I replied > then as now...that I will cease and desist if a substantial > part of the membership wishes. After all, it is no great loss > that grad students in sociology in the USA not have access to > the kind of work I do...there are other, parallel sources. A power relations exists only if that is the why you see it. I personally do not see a power relation occurring. I hope that all sociology graduate students see themselves as collegues of the professors that they work with or come in contact with. > > And, then, as now, I think Socgrad members might want to consider > these items: > > 1. Should I continue the mini-lectures? Should there be a time > limit on these contributions? Yes you should continue your mini-lectures and if someone does not like what is being said they can always delete the message or filter it. > 2. Should a series of profs from around the country and around > the world be invited, sequentially, to offer brief reports > of their work/ideas/analysis for a semester or two?? Anyone who is a member of socgrad should have the oppertunity to discuss their work and be open to criticism from those on the lists. (Let's hope it is constructive criticism) 3. Should a Selection Committee be elected to oversee such contributions? A selection committee is not needed. Then this list would become very formal. > 7. And, finally, I would like to go back to the question of > pedagogic oppression raised by Christian in his opening remarks. > > I was aware of the power/oppressive character of something called > a lecture by someone called a professor [and I have been one for a long, > long time]. My thinking at the time was that, on balance, the posts > might be worthwhile. I remember too well that, as grad student at > Michigan and then again at Colorado, there were tons of progressive, > radical, feminist, postmodern stuff I simply didn't get. > > I knew too, that at most soc departments today, there are many > faculty who can do better than I on most topics I choose as lecture > topic...it was those grad students at smaller universities around the > country of whom I thought at the time...those at Berkeley, Michigan > and Colorado [as they are now], Stanford, Chicago, Illinois, Ohio > State and other places around the country have little need of such > posts. I thought at the time and still think there are many grad > students around the country who need, as I needed, perspectives not > in the program in which they now read and learn. This is so true. It is refreshing to get another point of view that helps you to understand what is going on the field of sociology.ANd because some soc depts are so small and have budget constraints us grad students do not receive some of the information that other large universities receive. TR Young your lectures have been a great help to me and if this group decides that they do not wish to have you participate I hope that you will find another avenue that those who wish to receive your mini-series can continue to do so. Valerie Vinson, MA Candidate University NE-Omaha From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mon Sep 30 12:44:42 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA26755 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:44:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id NAA01635; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:53:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199609301853.NAA01635@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:51:08 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, Sociology Graduate Students -- International From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: Re: Lectures and Learning To T.R., Christian and the rest, For my part, I enjoy T.R.'s little postings, and his reply to Christian's comments was hardly "hegemonic." T.R.'s notes ("mini-lectures," whatever...) come at no cost to me, they are often interesting digests of things we have all been thinking about (even here in Chicago) and given all the hoopla about the supposed democratization effects of interacting on the net ("we're all equal here... if you don't agree with what's going on you can argue with it, turn it off, blah, blah, blah...") all the talk about structural inequities inherent in "the lecture" seem misplaced. I would argue that participation in these kinds of open forums modulates, if not removes, the structural inequities that have been talked about. (T.R. is not "grading" you or reading your qualifiers, is he?) If you want a forum where the exchange of ideas can proceed unfettered by the "power relations" of the classroom, this kind of forum gets pretty close. Exclusionary policies or practices are dangerous, and those who advocate same might think very hard about what kind of community they would create in it's name. I'm for inviting T.R. to stay (if he wants a "vote"). His idea to get things more organized seems ill-fated, but his idea to invite the occasional thought-piece from others seems benign enough. The problem is that on a list with no real topical focus within soc, specialist commentary will probably die quickly unless situated within larger concerns of theory, method or praxis. Last, as a teacher-cum-grad-student myself, I can tell you that the exchange of ideas is not always one-way. Consider the possibility that you might have things to say that "professors" (wow!) will find interesting and ennervating. When you are nearing emeritus status yourselves (sorry, T.R.), you might welcome the opportunity to talk about things informally, "off-line," where your professional colleagues won't be judging every word with a cold eye. These forums can only benefit from a catholic (small "c") approach to ideas and identity. Respectfully, Gavin H. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From jjanosko@vt.edu Mon Sep 30 13:35:06 1996 Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA00859 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:35:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA26979 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:35:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from as2511-36.sl001.cns.vt.edu (as2511-36.sl001.cns.vt.edu [128.173.37.72]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03767 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:35:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199609301935.PAA03767@sable.cc.vt.edu> X-Sender: jjanosko@mail.vt.edu (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:34:19 +0600 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: jjanosko@vt.edu (Jeff Janosko) Subject: Censoring T.R. Young Hi folks, I thought a sociology list-serve would be the last place I'd encounter censorship...which is exactly what some of you are engaging in by impugning T.R. Young's participation. As long as posts are responsible discussions of sociological topics anyone should have the right to say whatever they wish. Like many graduate students around the country, I've worked with T.R...in fact, I would never have become a graduate student without his guidance. I think his particpation is important. It keeps him "connected" to his many former students; it also elevates the level of discussion on this list. Few of us put as much thought or energy into postings as T.R. does. Sorry Christian, but your mini-tirade is mega-obnoxious. ************* Jeff Janosko Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA USA jjanosko@vt.edu From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Mon Sep 30 13:53:44 1996 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA01226 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:53:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost on ttyv4) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21603 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199609301953.MAA21603@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Lectures and Learning (fwd) forwarded message ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From DONNAB@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu Mon Sep 30 07:33:32 1996 Received: from PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (portland.caps.maine.edu [130.111.130.4]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA08320 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07: 3:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu by PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 30 Sep 96 09:31:13 EDT Received: from MUSKIE2/TEMPQ by muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 30 Sep 96 09:33:21 EST5EDT Received: from TEMPQ by MUSKIE2 (Mercury 1.21); 30 Sep 96 09:33:07 EST5EDT >From: "donna bird" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:33:01 EST5EDT Subject: Lectures and Learning Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <4D49BFB3668@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu> I'm fascinated that the current discussion about the appropriateness of T.R. Young's participation in this group has just come up for the first time since I joined the listserv a couple of years ago. I always wondered why he was so actively involved, but I didn't think to complain, since I find the information in many of his mini-lectures interesting and thought-provoking. I've certainly mentioned some of his ideas in my classes! I had also wondered why the mini-lectures so seldom prompted discussion among members of the listserv. From that point of view, I welcome the current controversy---at least it means someone is paying attention! TR has my affirmative vote. I should note for the record that I'm a middle-aged doctoral student at UConn who works full time as a health services researcher and teaches undergraduate sociology courses at USM. I don't regularly participate in the discussions because 1) I don't have a lot of time 2)I have trouble getting involved in some of the more theoretical discussions---seems like the kind of stuff that would make more sense over coffee 3)I have difficulty relating to the experiences of people who are full-time graduate students, since I never did that. I've always worked a regular job while I went to grad school. This is by no means a value judgment, just an acceptance of difference. Be well, Donna Bird ********************************************************** Donna C. Bird Research Associate Edmund S. Muskie Institute of Public Affairs University of Southern Maine PO Box 9300 Portland, ME 04104-9300 207/780-4102 (direct phone) 207/780-4417 (fax) From slincoln@weber.ucsd.edu Mon Sep 30 15:53:53 1996 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA05572 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:53:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from slincoln@localhost on ttyua) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09318; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:53:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Lincoln To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Luck be a Lady Tonight: Gambling in a Time of Trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I must agree with the individual who dared applaud T.R. Young's contributions to this list. I too look forward to the postings--please, keep them coming. Stephen G. Lincoln Dept. of Sociology U.C. San Diego From slincoln@weber.ucsd.edu Mon Sep 30 15:55:26 1996 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA05592 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from slincoln@localhost on ttyua) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09693; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:55:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Lincoln To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Luck be a Lady Tonight: Gambling in a Time of Trouble In-Reply-To: <324F2401.4490@cats.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Christian: relax. Stephen. From XCHUFF@ccvax.fullerton.edu Mon Sep 30 22:17:27 1996 Received: from CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU (CCVAX.Fullerton.EDU [137.151.1.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id WAA17340 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:17:26 -0600 (MDT) From: XCHUFF@ccvax.fullerton.edu Received: from ccvax.fullerton.edu by ccvax.fullerton.edu (PMDF V4.3-7 #4956) id <01IA3R21OFNO00DA4N@ccvax.fullerton.edu>; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:20:55 PST Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:20:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Luck be a Lady Tonight: Gambling in a Time of Trouble To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01IA3R21OFNQ00DA4N@ccvax.fullerton.edu> X-VMS-To: IN%"socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I found out about SOCGRAD about the same time that TR Young began posting his mini-lectures a couple years ago. At first I thought that he was "talking down" to all of us, but I could not agree with kicking him off after reviewing more of his lectures. Years later, I am glad that I voted to keep him around. I feel that his mini-lectures are informative and interesting and I have printed about 90% of them for my records. I agree with those of you that feel that this list has slowed down to the point of being dull, but I do not see anyone doing anything about it. At least TR Young is attempting to put out some information and usually gets some discussion going. Those of you that are complaining don't seem to be contributing much to improving this "discussion group". I vote that TR Young stays and if you don't like what he has to offer, then delete his post and move on! Enough said! Todd Huff C.S.U. Fullerton From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Oct 1 01:01:28 1996 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id BAA00936 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IA43AK689S9TCN4Z@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IA43AGDMXO9TCN4W@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu id <2711-2>; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:00:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:00:44 -0400 From: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <96Oct1.030054edt.2711-2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm very surprised by all the responses thus far that have dismissed and/or ignored Christian's point about the power involved in teacher-to-student/lecturer-to-learner relationships. Please tell me that there are more of you out there who recognize this power differential, feel it's important to identify and address, and find it problematic in at least some ways. ==================== His point was made while criticizing TR's contributions, which for me are the best part of this list. As for the power imbalance, it's not going to disappear in your lifetime. Get used to it. Being a grad student means having to face constant assaults on your ego, accepting low status, and accepting pay so low that it could be considered exploitive. And yet those jobs are coveted and competed for by grad students. OF COURSE we all recognize the power differential! Whaddya think, we're morons or something? From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Oct 1 01:04:16 1996 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id BAA01005 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:04:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IA43E1RAJK9TCN56@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IA43DXWMVQ9TCN4W@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu id <2693-6>; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:03:44 -0400 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:03:34 -0400 From: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: T.R. Young To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <96Oct1.030344edt.2693-6@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <199609301422.IAA09636@csf.Colorado.EDU> If he would abandon the lecture "talkin at us" style and rather see his viewpoint as on of many contributions than (as I've said 3 times now, at least) I welcome his contributions. ================================================ I should hope a sociology grad student would be able to get past the style and cut right to the substance of the argument. I don't really see much relevance in criticizing someone's rhetorical style while totally ignoring their argument. If you welcome his contributions, then why are you bitching about his style? From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Oct 1 01:18:36 1996 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id BAA01527 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:18:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IA43VS2TLS9TCN4Y@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IA43VOMX249TCN4W@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu id <2868-6>; Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:17:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:17:52 -0400 From: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: Luck be a Lady Tonight: Gambling in a Time of Trouble To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <96Oct1.031759edt.2868-6@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: For it is US who will be creating the Sociology of the 21st century. And We have to be engaging each others minds in an attempt to make Sociology relevant again to the issues that we shall be (and are currently) facing. And we cannot do that by merely engaging with Professor's, we must engage one another and use each other as resources. So Mr. Gunn far from advocating a list devoid of content I am encouraging that we/graduate students take the responsibility to make this list a vital source of discourse about the modern world and sociology's role in making that world. ========================================================= By picking out one voice and assigning him a status based on his rhetorical style, it seems to me that YOU are the one creating a hierarchical social structure here. You are the one setting up a we/they dynamic. I don't see how typed words appearing on my screen whose source is from someone I've never met and who has no power over me at all can possibly contribute to a hierarchical power structure. I think you may be reifying your own problems with authority figures. From bc05357@binghamton.edu Tue Oct 1 07:44:35 1996 Received: from bingsun3.cc.binghamton.edu (bingsun3.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA22479 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:44:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (bc05357@localhost) by bingsun3.cc.binghamton.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA09728 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Johnston X-Sender: bc05357@bingsun3 To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff In-Reply-To: <960930131855_533686049@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I'm very surprised by all the responses thus far that have dismissed and/or > ignored Christian's point about the power involved in > teacher-to-student/lecturer-to-learner relationships. Please tell me that > there are more of you out there who recognize this power differential, feel > it's important to identify and address, and find it problematic in at least > some ways. > > Ivy Kennelly Agreed. But the problematic nature in this case is minimal, mostly a matter of style and language of the exchange. I confess that the first time I saw one of TR's mini-lectures, I was put off. "Here's the esteemed Professor Young gracing you with his considered wisdom..." The messages themselves are always neatly prepared, organized, indented, etc., and so giving me the impression that they were part of some mass mailing. But I soon decided to be less suspicious, read and enjoyed a few of the messages, and made an effort to learn more about TR Young. Since then I've had direct e-mail contact with him, though I've still never met him. I read most of his mini-lectures, save quite a few, and have used some of his ideas in the classroom. I think he should continue to post his "mini-lectures", and that we should feel free to discuss them, even attack his ideas (not him) if we disagree with them. And as far as power relations go, ones like rich-to-poor, elite-to-masses, government- to-citizen and employer-to-employee are much more pressing in my life these days. Chris Johnston Sociology, SUNY-Binghamton From dow2@Ra.MsState.Edu Tue Oct 1 08:34:13 1996 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA25612 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:34:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu (dow2@Ra.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.10]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id JAA27370; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:34:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (dow2@localhost); by Ra.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.0c-FWP); id JAA10101; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:33:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:33:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Danny O. Winbush" To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff In-Reply-To: <960930131855_533686049@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 Ologygrad@aol.com wrote: > I'm very surprised by all the responses thus far that have dismissed and/or > ignored Christian's point about the power involved in > teacher-to-student/lecturer-to-learner relationships. Please tell me that > there are more of you out there who recognize this power differential, feel > it's important to identify and address, and find it problematic in at least > some ways. > > Ivy Kennelly I don't beleve that Christian's concerns have been dismissed or ignored. The responces are more in the support of T.R. than a caustic exercise against his original post. Indeed, all voices should be heard. This is how we learn. I welcome Christian's and anyone else comments on any topic. I may not agree with them but I am interested in their thought processes. My greatest fear would be that if individuals are chastized because a particular opinion is unpopular and if this is done long enough and harsh enough eventually people will reframe from expression out of fear of admonisment. That is where the true tragedy would lay. This discussion could just as eaily have been a sociological experiment in its self. Can anyone say that they have not been effected by it? The key may not be in what was said as much as how it was said. With this particular medium of expression one can not see all the component parts that are involved in communication. Consequently one has to infer what is meant and has an incomplete set of data in which to accomplish this task. This puts us in a position where we either have to be careful the way we say something or we all have to develope thicker skins. And anytime there is critizism let us try to remember that it is the particular idea that is being critized not the individual. I believe that we all can agree to disagree on points without being disagreable toward one another. So rock on. Temeritas ignoratioqus vitiosa est. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Danny O. Winbush dow2@Ra.MsState.Edu. http://www2.msstate.edu/~dow2 Dum anima est, spes est. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From conroyt@bu.edu Tue Oct 1 09:24:57 1996 Received: from acs3.bu.edu (ACS3.BU.EDU [128.197.153.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA27872 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:24:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from conroyt@localhost) by acs3.bu.edu (8.7.6/) id LAA15910; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:15:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: thomas conroy Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff To: Ologygrad@aol.com cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International In-Reply-To: <960930131855_533686049@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 Ologygrad@aol.com wrote: > I'm very surprised by all the responses thus far that have dismissed and/or > ignored Christian's point about the power involved in > teacher-to-student/lecturer-to-learner relationships. Please tell me that > there are more of you out there who recognize this power differential, feel > it's important to identify and address, and find it problematic in at least > some ways. > > Ivy Kennelly Actually, no, I don't recognize a "power differential" here. I strongly disagree with this notion, which has been suggested in a couple of posts. Teacher-student (or lecturer-audience) relations are not exactly about the use of POWER so much as they are about the AUTHORITY of the speaker (a class conceptual distinction examined by Weber, among others).The fact, though, that the teacher is in a position of authority should not necessarily mean that he or she is abusing that authority by oppressing the students. While there may certainly be instances of professors abusing their authority (Professor Newt Gingrich's political donor sponsored "lectures" come to mind), it depresses me to think that those using the language of the Left are essentially feeding into the Right's misrepresentations of higher educational discourse. Besides, if anyone really wants to see where power exists on campus, it certainly is not with faculty groups. You might, instead, try taking a look at trustees, administrations, state governments, and corporate research sponsors, etc. Tom Conroy conroyt@acs.bu.edu From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Tue Oct 1 13:41:32 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA13114 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:41:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id NAA11463; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:06:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199610011806.NAA11463@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 13:04:07 -0400 To: Thomas F Brown , socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: Re: innervating Whoops. Thanks for the close reading, Thomas. The word I intended to use was "innervating," the meaning of which is roughly opposite that of "enervating." GH > >You wrote "Consider the possibility that you might >have things to say that "professors" (wow!) will find interesting and >ennervating." > >"Enervate" means "to deprive of vitality". Somehow I don't >think that's quite what you intended, but I got a laugh >out of it. > >later, thomas --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From DONNAB@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu Tue Oct 1 13:57:25 1996 Received: from PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (portland.caps.maine.edu [130.111.130.4]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA13634 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:57:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu by PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 01 Oct 96 15:55:14 EDT Received: from MUSKIE2/TEMPQ by muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 1 Oct 96 15:57:25 EST5EDT Received: from TEMPQ by MUSKIE2 (Mercury 1.21); 1 Oct 96 15:57:16 EST5EDT From: "donna bird" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:57:12 EST5EDT Subject: teaching and power relationships Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Message-ID: <4F305305CC7@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu> I think it's enormously useful that the TR Young controversy is moving us to talk/think about the teacher-student relationship thang. I agree for the most part with Thomas Conroy who made the important distinction between power and authority. Gotta admit, I have had teachers/professors who seemed to be a bit taken with their power. I don't think that it's necessary for us to take on this role when we teach. I tell students in my classes that I'm working for them---that helps to set the record straight. I'm a consultant whose expertise they're buying with their tuition payments. We all agree that during the class I stand in the front of the room and do most of the talking, but they also agree to carry some of the weight, and I encourage them to talk about ways that the sociology they are learning is connecting with other experiences they are having. I need their participation or the teaching is flat (kind of like this listserv when we don't interact---I say as a formerly guilty party). Gotta sign off---time to pick up the car at the garage! Donna Bird From maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Tue Oct 1 19:41:59 1996 Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id TAA28174 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:41:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ts3-13.homenet.ohio-state.edu (ts3-13.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.112.68]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA22635 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610020137.VAA22635@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> X-Sender: maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jessica Maguire) Subject: An introduction I've been reading this list for about a year, and this is the first time I've had anything to say. What motivated me, in conjunction with the debate about TR Young's mini-lectures, was the suggestion that we introduce ourselves (a great idea, since I have previously felt excluded from some imagined inner circle). Hi, my name is Jess. Some things I'm interested in are childbirth (homebirth), (holistic) healing, (alternative and home) schooling, mythologies (of all kinds including the myth of "progress"), cooperative living (intentional communities) and working (worker-owned) environments, and qualitative methods. I have yet to be encouraged in my study of any of these things. TR wrote: those at Berkeley, Michigan >and Colorado [as they are now], Stanford, Chicago, Illinois, Ohio >State and other places around the country have little need of such >posts. As a student at Ohio State I would like to extend my thanks to TR Young for his mini-lectures, and say that I (and I'm sure many others) *do* have need of such posts. While there are scholars who deal with some of the issues TR addresses, the bulk of my training has neglected the very things that drew me to sociology in the first place - specifically, integrating and synthesizing knowledge about society, and taking nothing for granted. Graduate school has been a disappointment for me in a lot of ways, and the exclusive focus on specialization and quantitative methods is probably the biggest. It's difficult to verbalize my concerns, especially because few people I've met seem to share them. In my experience so far (2 years), the program I'm in overwhelmingly promotes the categorization of miniscule bits of data for the purposes of publication (and maybe trickle-down education) without regard for the big picture, actively informing the general public, or having *any* impact on the real world. I have a hard time with this. I'd love to hear from others on the list about their evolving relationships with the discipline. Have you been disappointed? Have you been inspired? By whom? What? Where? Is anyone in a program that supports the kind of work I'm trying to do? Peace Jess From maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Tue Oct 1 20:11:06 1996 Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id UAA28666 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 20:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ts3-13.homenet.ohio-state.edu (ts3-13.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.112.68]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA24602 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610020153.VAA24602@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> X-Sender: maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jessica Maguire) Subject: Fwd:National Congress >-------------------------[Original Message]-------------------------- > >>X-POP3-Rcpt: ez076176@peseta >>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:50:12 -0800 >>Reply-To: fhcastrillon@ucdavis.edu >>Sender: owner-socgrad@ucdavis.edu >>From: fhcastrillon@ucdavis.edu (Fernando Castrill=F3n ) >>To: socgrad@ucdavis.edu >>Subject: National Congress >>X-Sender: ez049603@rocky.ucdavis.edu >>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >>Content-Length: 2389 >> >>FYI, >>Fernando >> >>> *********** National Congress ********** >>> >>> Interested in creating better working conditions for Graduate >>>Teaching Assistants, part-time faculty, adjuncts, and non-tenure-track >>>full-time faculty? >>> >>> In Washington DC, December 27-28, concurrent with the Modern >>>Language Association (MLA) Convention, there will be a National Congress >>>of Part Time, Adjunct, GTA, and Non-Tenure Track faculty. We will be >>>meeting to share information and ideas about solutions to the ongoing >>>crisis in the working conditions of marginalized faculty. The National >>>Congress will include workshops on specific issues of interest to graduate >>>students, part-timers, and full-time faculty who are committed to justice >>>in higher education, as well as plenary discussions on such issues as >>>unionization of marginal faculty, how to make the AAUP more responsive to >>>part-timer/GTA concerns, and ways to make the MLA and other professional >>>academic organizations more engaged in issues of justice in employment. >>> >>> The National Congress is free and open to anyone genuinely >>>interested in the employment conditions of part-time faculty, GTAs, >>>non-tenure track faculty, and adjuncts. >>> >>> More information, and a chance to get involved in planning the >>>National Congress, is available by joining the NATLCONG listserv. Send a >>>subscription message ("Subscribe NATLCONG yourname") to: >>> listserv@gwuvm.gwu.edu. >>> >>> Other requests for information can be directed to: >>> whitejj@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu. >>> mcg@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu >>> >>> We hope many of you, especially those already planning on >>>attending the MLA this December, will participate in what looks to be a >>>very important event in the development of a national strategy for justice >>>in college/university teaching. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Fernando Castrillon (916) 753-5678 >>Department of Sociology (916) 752-6772 >>University of California >>Davis, CA. 95616 fhcastrillon@ucdavis.edu >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi >> >> >> >> > > > > > From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Wed Oct 2 04:33:21 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id EAA00959 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 04:33:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5146; Wed, 02 Oct 96 06:31:15 EDT Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6102; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 06:31:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 06:27:59 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Re: Fwd:National Congress To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:53:06 -0400 (EDT) from Message-Id: <961002.063114.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Jessica: you're up bright and early. I wonder if you would like to report/summarize the more useful ideas you pick up at the conference for the Grad Student Page of the newsletter I edit?? I can give you about 20-30 lines if you agree; and will list you as Special Contributing Editor for the issue in which it appears...the Winter issue is in draft so we might get it in that one...failing, the Spring issue will come out in Feb-Mar. Do let me know. TR From NMOLIER@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 08:10:27 1996 Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu [130.39.128.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA09803 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:10:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU by LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6187; Wed, 02 Oct 96 08:07:35 CDT Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (NJE origin NMOLIER@LSUVM) by LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0704; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:07:35 -0500 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 08:01:10 CDT From: nicole moliere Subject: Re: Luck be a Lady Tonight: Gambling in a Time of Trouble To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <324F2401.4490@cats.ucsc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <961002.080734.CDT.NMOLIER@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> What is wrong with the T.R. Young issue is the fact that those who tend to have a problem with his work on the network never seem to engage him personally abo ut his agenda. I enjoy his lectures and aggressively support his efforts to pr ovide his peers with interesting ideas and discourse. Let us consider toleranc e and be careful not to take ourselves and the world-saving ability of our disc ipline too seriously. Nicole P. Moliere Louisiana State University Ph.D. Student, Dept. of Sociology From dow2@ra.msstate.edu Wed Oct 2 09:14:57 1996 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA13179 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:14:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (Port21.TS2.MsState.Edu [130.18.116.149]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id KAA02515; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:14:09 -0500 Message-ID: <325287D6.3F6D@ra.msstate.edu> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 10:18:46 -0500 From: Danny Winbush MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: this to lecture or not to lecture stuff References: <96Oct1.030054edt.2711-2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas F Brown wrote: > As for the power imbalance, it's not going to disappear in your lifetime. > Get used to it. Being a grad student means having to face constant > assaults on your ego, accepting low status, and accepting pay so low > that it could be considered exploitive. And yet those jobs are coveted > and competed for by grad students. OF COURSE we all recognize the > power differential! Whaddya think, we're morons or something? Probably more like masochist. The following humorus tidbits were sent to me by my major advisor. I thought that the list might enjoy a little levity about now. Danny Winbush "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." Albert Einstein There was this preacher who was doing a great job reaching and ministering to his congegration. The only problem was that there wasn't enough time in the day to get everything done. While discussing the problem, a doctor in his church suggested a technique to have a clone made. This sounded like sauch a good idea, that the preacher went right to the hospital and had the procedure done. After the clone was finished, the preacher discovered that a problem had occured in the process, and that the clone was just the opposite of him. He drank, cussed and ran around until late hours of the night, causing the reputation of the preacher to be dirt. Finally, the preacher figured a way to take care of his problem. He invited the clone up to a cliff to have lunch with him. While on the top of the cliff, he pushed the clone off, killing him. After the police discovered the body, and realized who had pushed him, they arrested the preacher for "making an obscene clone fall" A man took his pregnant wife to the hospital to give birth and the doctor told them that he'd developed a new machine & asked if they'd like to try it out. The machine could take some of the pain of childbirth from the mother & give it to the father to ease the mother's burden. Well, they thought that was a good idea & decided to give it a try, so the doctor set it on 10% to begin with, telling the man that even 10% was probably more pain than he'd ever experienced. But the man was surprised at how little pain he was feeling and asked the doctor to raise it. So he put it up to 20% and when the man still felt fine, he raised it to 50 & finally 100%. After it was over, the man stood up, stretched a little. Both he & his wife felt fine. Later, when they took the baby home, they found the mailman dead on their doorstep. These two drunks were sitting out on a vast ice pack. One commented to the other that he was getting hungry. The second said not to worry, that he was good at ice fishing. So, he pulled a knife out of his pocket and started to chisel a hole in the ice. All of a sudden, they heard a voice say, "There are no fish under the ice!" Well, they just ignored the voice and started chopping again. Again, the voice boomed louder saying, "There are no fish under the ice!" The second time, the voice got their attention, and one commented to the other, "This must be God!" Then the voice appeared again saying, "I'm not God, I'm the rink manager!" From lduchown@ic.sunysb.edu Thu Oct 3 06:46:14 1996 Received: from abel.ic.sunysb.edu (abel.ic.sunysb.edu [129.49.12.170]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id GAA22362 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 06:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sparky.ic.sunysb.edu (sparky [129.49.12.171]) by abel.ic.sunysb.edu (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id IAA01753 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (lduchown@localhost) by sparky.ic.sunysb.edu (8.7.6/8.6.9) id IAA16699; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:45:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Laurel Ann Duchowny X-Sender: lduchown@sparky To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: spss mailing list In-Reply-To: <961002.080734.CDT.NMOLIER@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anybody out there know of an spss mailing list or some listserve where spss problems and issues might be discussed? Thanks, Laurie Duchowny From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Oct 3 12:42:34 1996 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA10861 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:42:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA23142; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:41:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:41:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: spss mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Laurel Ann Duchowny wrote: > Does anybody out there know of an spss mailing list or some listserve > where spss problems and issues might be discussed? > Thanks, > Laurie Duchowny > spssx-l@uga.edu or comp.soft-sys.stat.spss if you have access to netnews. SPSS tech support monitor this list and frequently reply to posts. You can also check spss's web site (http://www.spss.com) for a tech support address . Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Oct 4 10:12:09 1996 Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id KAA08165 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:12:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ts1-4.homenet.ohio-state.edu (ts1-4.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.112.27]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00178 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610041602.MAA00178@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> X-Sender: maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: maguire.9@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jessica Maguire) Subject: Re: Fwd:National Congress >I wonder if you would like to report/summarize the more useful ideas >you pick up at the conference for the Grad Student Page of the >newsletter I edit?? TR, I'm sorry, I'm not planning to attend, I just wanted to pass on a post I received in hopes that other who can, will. Thanks for the invitation though. :) Jess From clee@math.ucla.edu Fri Oct 4 12:51:04 1996 Received: from julia.math.ucla.edu (julia.math.ucla.edu [128.97.4.254]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA18795 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:51:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from carson.math.ucla.edu by julia.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA15020; Fri, 4 Oct 96 11:51:01 PDT Received: by carson.math.ucla.edu (Sendmail 4.1/1.13) id AA14985; Fri, 4 Oct 96 11:50:59 PDT From: Cathie Lee Message-Id: <9610041850.AA14985@carson.math.ucla.edu> Subject: Fwd:New Math To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu (socgrad) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------Forwarded Message--------- Knowledge is Power Time is Money and as every engineer knows, Power is Work over Time. So, substituting algebraic equations for these time worn bits of wisdom, we get: K = P (1) T = M (2) P = W/T (3) Now, do a few simple substitutions: Put W/T in for P in equation (1), which yields: K = W/T (4) Put M in for T into equation (4), which yields: K = W/M (5). Now we've got something. Expanding back into English, we get: Knowledge equals Work over Money. What this MEANS is that: 1. The More You Know, the More Work You Do, and 2. The More You Know, the Less Money You Make. Solving for Money, we get: M = W/K (6) Money equals Work Over Knowledge. From equation (6) we see that Money approaches infinity as Knowledge approaches 0, regardless of the Work done. What THIS MEANS is: The More you Make, the Less you Know. Solving for Work, we get W = M K (7) Work equals Money times Knowledge From equation (7) we see that Work approaches 0 as Knowledge approaches 0. What THIS MEANS is: The stupid rich do little or no work. Working out the socioeconomic implications of this breakthrough is left as an exercise for the reader. From glenn@sobek.Colorado.EDU Fri Oct 4 16:34:19 1996 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA25949 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:34:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from glenn@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.6.13/8.6.11/Unixops/Hesiod/(SDM)) id QAA22461; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:34:15 -0600 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:34:15 -0600 (MDT) From: "Glenn W. Muschert" To: socgrad@csf.Colorado.EDU Subject: job (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought some of us might be looking. Viva! Glenn W. Muschert Department of Sociology University of Colorado at Boulder Campus Box 327 Boulder, CO 80309-0327 voice: 303.492.1415 email: glenn@sobek.colorado.edu WWW URL: http://socsci.colorado.edu/~glenn/home.html ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:40:12 -0700 From: wally@cats.ucsc.edu To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Subject: job The Board of Studies in Sociology at the University of California-Santa Cruz seeks a broadly trained sociologist with research interests in domestic (U.S.) political economy or the political economy of "advanced" societies. Expertise in institutional analysis, political sociology, and/or policy analysis would be desirable. Preference will be given to candidates able to (1) foster the growth of a faculty cluster focussed on Economy, Development, and Environment and (2) contribute to a teaching program that includes undergraduate and graduate core courses in theory and/or methods. Minimum qualifications: Ph.D. in Sociology or equivalent; prefer Ph.D. by June 30, 1997, must be in hand no later than June 30, 1998. Must have evidence of research activity and teaching excellence or potential for excellence in university teaching. Level: Assistant Professor, Step I-III, depending on qualifications and experience. Salary range: $39,600 - $43,900. Position available: July 1, 1997, contingent upon availability of funding. Along with letter of application, submit curriculum vitae; 3 letters of recommendation; a writing sample (up to 3 items); a detailed description of teaching experience or ability including syllabi used or proposed syllabi; and, if possible, a summary of student evaluations. These materials should be sent to: Sociology Board Search #282, 232 Stevenson College, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95064. Please refer to provision #282 in your reply. All materials must be received by November 15, 1996. The University of California is an EEO/AA/IRCA employer. From delany1@ozemail.com.au Tue Oct 8 04:29:17 1996 Received: from server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net [203.108.7.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id EAA00190 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 04:29:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA11089 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:29:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (sladl2p14.ozemail.com.au [203.7.185.102]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA12009 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:29:11 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:29:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19961008200300.1c5fbca8@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: delany1@ozemail.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Denys Delany Subject: Research I am a post-grad student currently engaged in writing a thesis involving social policy analysis. It appears that those "powerful" forces to which I am attached (and subservient) are demanding implicitly, and to a much lesser degree explicitly, adherence to forms of theorising that will acknowledge (and perpetuate) the existence of a single, or (at the very least) sets of, "objectified realities". My problem is this, the fundamental premise on which my research thesis rests is the assumption that certainties, as objective truths, have created dogmatic discourses as "realities", that has resulted in a set of particular public policies that have missed, become iatrogenic, or have become just downright brutal and destructive to those who have been subjected to them. It seems that I am expected to utilise an "accepted" objectified theoretical framework, as "the" tool of analysis and interpretation, when it is this that I am actually arguing against. I suspect that the demands for theoretical "tightness" as empirical, almost positivist, and therefore "legitimate scientific neutrality", involves more than a desire for validity and reliability and is primarily political rather than academic. I believe that these demands for "objective knowledge", therefore superior truthful or untainted knowledge, are more than just taking one side of a theoretical divide that has been described as the pervasive dichotomy between the devil of objectivity and the deep blue sea of relativism. I am aware that this issue will not be new to most of you however, I would be very interested to hear form those who are successfully managing to negotiate their way through it without having to give way to, or suffer the inherent restrictions of the all powerful, dominant discourses or the political requirements (agendas) of controlling institutions. DJ From ABROWN@hestia.fcs.uga.edu Tue Oct 8 07:01:54 1996 Received: from dns2.uga.edu (dns2.uga.edu [128.192.1.193]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA05448 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:01:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hestia.fcs.uga.edu (hestia.fcs.uga.edu [128.192.32.50]) by dns2.uga.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12000 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:01:53 -0400 Received: from HESTIA/SpoolDir by hestia.fcs.uga.edu (Mercury 1.21); 8 Oct 96 09:01:59 EDT Received: from SpoolDir by HESTIA (Mercury 1.21); 8 Oct 96 09:01:57 EDT From: "ANITA BROWN" Organization: Family & Consumer Sciences To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:01:57 EST5EDT Subject: Re: Research Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.30 Message-ID: <709AD26C31@hestia.fcs.uga.edu> Denys, I'm too much in the middle of this same quagmire myself to offer much more than sympathy... However, I recommend an article by Kate Lenzo in Educational Researcher -- where she describes this very problem that you have named and provides an example of how it was managed in a feminist poststructural doctoral dissertation. The reference is: Lenzo, K. (1995). Validity and self-reflexivity meet poststructuralism: Scientific ethos and the transgressive self. Educational Research, ??, 17- 45. [i don't have the volume number, but it is the May issue] Thanks for bringing up this issue -- I look forward to hearing related posts. Good Luck, Anita Brown > I am a post-grad student currently engaged in writing a thesis involving > social policy analysis. It appears that those "powerful" forces to which I > am attached (and subservient) are demanding implicitly, and to a much lesser > degree explicitly, adherence to forms of theorising that will acknowledge > (and perpetuate) the existence of a single, or (at the very least) sets of, > "objectified realities". > > My problem is this, the fundamental premise on which my research thesis > rests is the assumption that certainties, as objective truths, have created > dogmatic discourses as "realities", that has resulted in a set of particular > public policies that have missed, become iatrogenic, or have become just > downright brutal and destructive to those who have been subjected to them. > It seems that I am expected to utilise an "accepted" objectified theoretical > framework, as "the" tool of analysis and interpretation, when it is this > that I am actually arguing against. > > I suspect that the demands for theoretical "tightness" as empirical, almost > positivist, and therefore "legitimate scientific neutrality", involves more > than a desire for validity and reliability and is primarily political rather > than academic. I believe that these demands for "objective knowledge", > therefore superior truthful or untainted knowledge, are more than just > taking one side of a theoretical divide that has been described as the > pervasive dichotomy between the devil of objectivity and the deep blue sea > of relativism. I am aware that this issue will not be new to most of you > however, I would be very interested to hear form those who are successfully > managing to negotiate their way through it without having to give way to, or > suffer the inherent restrictions of the all powerful, dominant discourses or > the political requirements (agendas) of controlling institutions. > > DJ > > > > From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Oct 8 12:34:37 1996 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA19980 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:34:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IAEJJ0WMXS9ULNBB@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IAEJIXEXXS9TCTOW@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu id <1551-2>; Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:33:43 -0400 Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:33:41 -0400 From: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: Research To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <96Oct8.143343edt.1551-2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If you want to affect your audience, you have to speak their language. From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Tue Oct 8 13:47:58 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA26182 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:47:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id OAA06787 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:57:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199610081957.OAA06787@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:54:32 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: T.R. Young After a flurry of impassioned (and a few impassive) notes on the T.R. Young question (to stay or not to stay), I find the list strangely quiet on the issue lately. Are you/we ready to come to closure? T.R. hinted that he might like some kind of "invitation to stay" and I ague that the poll results are in. On the basis of my recollection of the contents of the mail over the last few weeks, he stays. I put the motion up for a second, further move that T.R. take the received opinion of the list as his "invitation" and last, I move that we move on to more moving missives. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu Tue Oct 8 14:04:06 1996 Received: from VMS1.TAMU.EDU (VMS1.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id OAA26794 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:04:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610082004.OAA26794@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from sadberry.tamu.edu by VMS1.TAMU.EDU with SMTP; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:04:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Timothy M. Chester" To: Subject: Re: T.R. Young Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:06:17 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I second that motion. Timothy M. Chester ---------- | From: Gavin Hougham | To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International | Subject: T.R. Young | Date: Tuesday, October 08, 1996 1:54 PM | | After a flurry of impassioned (and a few impassive) notes on the T.R. Young | question (to stay or not to stay), I find the list strangely quiet on the | issue lately. Are you/we ready to come to closure? T.R. hinted that he | might like some kind of "invitation to stay" and I ague that the poll | results are in. On the basis of my recollection of the contents of the mail | over the last few weeks, he stays. I put the motion up for a second, | further move that T.R. take the received opinion of the list as his | "invitation" and last, I move that we move on to more moving missives. | | --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) | The University of Chicago Medical Center | Section of General Internal Medicine and | Department of Sociology | 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) | Chicago, IL 60637 | | (312) 702-6735 | ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu | --------------------------------------------------------------------- From dow2@ra.msstate.edu Tue Oct 8 14:15:34 1996 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id OAA27226 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:15:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (Port14.TS2.MsState.Edu [130.18.116.142]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id PAA03978; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:15:21 -0500 Message-ID: <325AB822.39BE@ra.msstate.edu> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:22:58 -0500 From: Danny Winbush MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: T.R. Young References: <199610081957.OAA06787@medicine> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gavin Hougham wrote: > > On the basis of my recollection of the contents of the mail > over the last few weeks, he stays. I put the motion up for a second, > further move that T.R. take the received opinion of the list as his > "invitation" and last, I move that we move on to more moving missives. I second the motion. Danny Winbush dow2@ra.msstate.edu http://www2.msstate.edu/~dow2 "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." [Gandhi] From CSBAC@scm.mission.com.au Tue Oct 8 19:00:32 1996 Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au (kyoko.mpx.com.au [203.2.75.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id TAA08788 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:00:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rosebay.matra.com.au(really [203.18.150.1]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with esmtp id for ; Wed, 9 Oct 96 11:00:25 +1000 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Received: from scm.UUCP (root@localhost) by rosebay.matra.com.au with UUCP id LAA27688 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu); Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:03:02 +1000 Message-ID: <199610090103.LAA27688@rosebay.matra.com.au> Received: from CSBAC@scm.mission.com.au (Brian Cooper) by WPEGWAF ver. á0.6 at Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:44:37 +1000 From: CSBAC@scm.mission.com.au (Brian Cooper) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:44:37 +1000 Subject: Re: Research Priority: normal This is a common problem where the 'master' determines that the 'slave' shall reproduce as a clone of the master using the insights of the slave. Brian Cooper From XCHUFF@ccvax.fullerton.edu Tue Oct 8 21:40:17 1996 Received: from CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU (CCVAX.Fullerton.EDU [137.151.1.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id VAA17763 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:40:15 -0600 (MDT) From: XCHUFF@ccvax.fullerton.edu Received: from ccvax.fullerton.edu by ccvax.fullerton.edu (PMDF V4.3-7 #4956) id <01IAEVWDCNDG00GD45@ccvax.fullerton.edu>; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:31:05 PST Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:31:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: T.R. Young To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01IAEVWDCX0M00GD45@ccvax.fullerton.edu> X-VMS-To: IN%"socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I second those motions! SAVE T.R. YOUNG!!! Let's move on... Todd Huff C.S.U. Fullerton Dept. of Sociology From jczer@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu Tue Oct 8 22:11:01 1996 Received: from cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (cholera.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.252.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id WAA19891 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:10:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (jczer@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.232.3]) by cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id XAA07899 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:10:38 -0500 Received: by cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (1.38.193.4/UofC3.0) id AA12124; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:10:59 -0500 From: Jean Czerlinski Message-Id: <9610090410.AA12124@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu> Subject: foot doctors To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 23:10:59 CDT In-Reply-To: <199610081957.OAA06787@medicine>; from "Gavin Hougham" at Oct 08, 96 2:54 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Hi, Gavin, I keep seeing your .sig on socgrad and so can't resist asking you a small question. Don't answer if you're too busy. In Hyde Park I have the impression that a lot of foot-doctor ads are directed toward the poor. Why is this? Are there more foot problems among the poor? Why? Is it directed more toward the working poor or the unemployed on welfare? If it's the working poor, I can imagine they have poor feet from doing McJobs where you stand a lot-- from my own experiences in such jobs I know your blood pools in your feet and your feet then swell and over years this can't be too healthy. But if the ads are directed more to the unemployed, then I'm less sure. Maybe medicaire is generous to foot doctors, so the ads are there less because there's a need for foot doctors then because it's such a lucrative business for them. Just curious, Jean P.s. I'm all for T.R. Young's posts too but won't voice my opinion unless necessary. (I also think he's a bit of a flake, but I nevertheless find some of his stuff useful and interesting.) From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Tue Oct 8 23:19:19 1996 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id XAA24713 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:19:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost on ttyv1) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA16181 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:19:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199610090519.WAA16181@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: TR Young Yes, it appears that the bulk of opinion (at least, that expressed online) favors TR Young continuing his mini-lectures. Although, I presume that TR has been reading the debate, perhaps someone who knows him could email him directly to let him know of the outcome of all this. Hopefully, this debate has stirred up some motivation to make a livelier list. If people are like me, they are subscribed to too many lists, so the vast majority of their Internet time goes to reading messages and clearing out their email box. It's kind of ironic to think that the "explosion" of the Internet ends up contributing to a decline in its interactive qualities. Hmmm, now why did they say this is different from television? Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Wed Oct 9 13:00:37 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA00615 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:00:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id OAA07144; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:09:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199610091909.OAA07144@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:07:12 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, Sociology Graduate Students -- International From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: Re: foot doctors At 11:10 PM 10/8/96 CDT, Jean Czerlinski wrote: >In Hyde Park I have the impression that a lot of foot-doctor >ads are directed toward the poor. Why is this? Are there >more foot problems among the poor? Why? Is it directed more >toward the working poor or the unemployed... [stuff deleted] Well, there are a number of things going on, but here's what I have picked up on this issue (and remember, I'm no physician). As far as I understand it, there are serious periperal sensory neuropathies (nerve disorders in the extremities) associated with some forms of diabetes and lead poisoning, among other things. The nerve damage in the feet causes a multitude of cascading problems (if you can't FEEL an ulcer or corn developing, or an ill fitting shoe, it gets worse, for example). Diabetes and lead poisoning tend to be overrepresented in the poor for a host of other reasons (maybe nutritional deficits, restricted or late access to health care services, housing deficits, whatever...). So, what you are observing with respect to what seems like mass advertising of podiatric services to the poor is coincident with targeted advertising to folks with lots of foot problems due, in part, to complications attendent with high incidence of diabetes, etc, etc. Your other observations on how the working poor might have jobs that expose their feet to excessive risk is also plausible and testable. Another hypothesis you'd have to rule out the geographic propensity of health care providers to cluster, and as Hyde Park is the race and class integrated neighborhood surrounding the Univ. of Chicago's Medical Center complex, this is also a possibility. I am not SURE I am right on this, but this would be a start... Fun with epidemiology. Gavin H. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From dschaef@indiana.edu Wed Oct 9 19:01:41 1996 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id TAA13844 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (dschaef@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA11078; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dschaef@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id UAA15125; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:01:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:01:39 -0500 (EST) From: dschaef@indiana.edu X-Sender: dschaef@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu To: Christian cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Paulo Freire In-Reply-To: <325007FB.2D5F@cats.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Christian wrote: > p.s. > > Has anyone else read "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" by Paulo Freire? If > you have would you please post some of your thoughts on this peice? It > might prove quite interesting. > Christian, I haven't read "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" but I have read bell hooks _Teaching to Transgress_. In this book bell hooks outlines her admiration of Paulo Freire's books and his teaching style. >From hook's writing I gather that Freire encourages a teaching style that does not embody a system of oppression (all-knowing teacher and silent student). Instead it's more a collaborative engagement between the student who has life experiences and the educator. A meaningful education results when what is taught (or constructed in class dialogue) informs not only the student's mind but also the student's life - it's relevant to their class-based or race-based or gender-based experiences. The best teachers are those who have lived the ideas they teach. They combine "book learning" with experience and transform mere knowledge into wisdom. This is some of what I gather from bell hooks. What does Freire write about in "Pedagogy of the Oppressed"? Diane Schaefer Indiana University Bloomington From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 10 11:41:48 1996 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA23208 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:41:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.6.4.3/10.1) id NAA04489; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:41:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:41:46 -0400 From: Pamela Paxton To: socgrad Subject: help with ratings used by sociologists Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, I'm brainstorming and could use some help! I'm trying to think of ratings that might be used by sociologists in their research. An example of what I'm looking for would be the democracy ratings put out by Freedom House every year. These have experts rate every country on its level of democracy. Another example would be in the study of comparable worth, where committees meet and rate different jobs (typist, mechanic, etc.) on how difficult they are, etc. Since I only work in a few substantive areas, I know I'm not thinking of some good examples. I really need to think of some examples, though. Are there features of cities that get rated? Things in social psychological research? Any suggestions on things that get 'rated' would be helpful. Thanks very much!!! Pam *********************************************************************** Pamela Paxton 'there is definitely, Department of Sociology definitely, definitely University of North Carolina no logic to human CB#3210, Hamilton Hall behavior.' Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 -Bjork email: ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu *********************************************************************** From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Thu Oct 10 12:19:34 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA25125 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:19:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id NAA10363; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:28:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199610101828.NAA10363@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:19:33 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, Sociology Graduate Students -- International From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists At 01:41 PM 10/10/96 -0400, Pamela Paxton wrote: >Hi all, >I'm brainstorming and could use some help! I'm trying to think of >ratings that might be used by sociologists in their research. An example of >what I'm looking for would be the democracy ratings... You might do some keyword lit searches on "social indicators." There has been a lot of work in this area. I seem to get mailings for conferences on this stuff (merely by virtue of being on the ASA membership roster), and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Social Indicators journal, but I am sorry to say I can not give you a good cite right off the bat... If you find a few good refs, re-post to the list , OK? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Oct 10 12:45:29 1996 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA26556 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:45:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA20372; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:44:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists In-Reply-To: <199610101828.NAA10363@medicine> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Gavin Hougham wrote: > At 01:41 PM 10/10/96 -0400, Pamela Paxton wrote: > >Hi all, > >I'm brainstorming and could use some help! I'm trying to think of > >ratings that might be used by sociologists in their research. An example of > >what I'm looking for would be the democracy ratings... > > You might do some keyword lit searches on "social indicators." There has > been a lot of work in this area. I seem to get mailings for conferences on > this stuff (merely by virtue of being on the ASA membership roster), and I > wouldn't be surprised if there is a Social Indicators journal, but I am > sorry to say I can not give you a good cite right off the bat... > > If you find a few good refs, re-post to the list , OK? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The journal Gavin mentioned is SOCIAL INDICATORS RESEARCH; you could also search books in the LC classification "social indicators." If I remember correctly, occupational prestige "ratings" were originally based on ranks; there was some work done in the 1989 General Social Survey to update those scores. Check ICPSR study 9593 "Occupational prestige ratings from the 1989 General Social Survey" and associated articles for details. (Pamela--this is codebook 74-R-1989 in the IRSS data library.) Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Oct 10 15:49:49 1996 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA05420 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost on ttyu3) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12841 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:49:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199610102149.OAA12841@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists (fwd) forwarded message ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From ctorgers@plato.helios.nd.edu Thu Oct 10 11:54:08 1996 Received: from plato.helios.nd.edu (plato.helios.nd.edu [129.74.219.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA23946 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:54:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ctorgers@localhost) by plato.helios.nd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10656 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:54:03 -0500 (EST) >From: christine torgerson Message-Id: <199610101754.MAA10656@plato.helios.nd.edu> Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:54:03 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Pamela Paxton" at Oct 10, 96 01:41:46 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since I only work in a few substantive areas, I know I'm not thinking of > some good examples. I really need to think of some examples, though. > Are there features of cities that get rated? Things in social > psychological research? I wouldn't mind a bit more background on what you need this for, I might be able to suggest something more useful. But it never hurts to look at how other people and disciplines rate things as well. The point being, there are whole books of "Places Rated Almanacs" for cities, and in the preface, they almost always explain at how they came upon their rating systems. Psychologists use all sorts of rating systems, and we sociologists have systems for anomie, for example. Also, the census bureau is always an excellent place to look for suggestions on how to operationalize an idea. Just a few ideas...good luck. Christine From timd@LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU Fri Oct 11 13:40:55 1996 Received: from laguna.epcc.edu (laguna.epcc.edu [206.42.168.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA00565 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:40:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU by LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #2466) id <01IAIOJHHBRE8Y5SSF@LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU>; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:40:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:40:14 -0600 (MDT) From: timd@LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU Subject: Re: Paulo Freire In-reply-to: To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Fellow grad student comrades, Interesting tidbit, FYI. I have heard from a grad student that organized a conference several years ago to bring Freire to his university, on his own initiative because he was so inspired by his work. Anyway he rounded up the funds and faculty support and it becamse quite the much-anticipated event. However, much to the student's dismay, he found that Freire basically violated his own teachings in his manner of presentation by being very didactic [no dialogical inteactive schtick here]. He felt this may have been because the faculty were elbowing each other out of the way to get close to the "authority" and kind of hijacked the forum into a typical academic status-conscious- elitist gala. Nonetheless, the student who organized the whole thing got pushed out of the way (faco.s took credit for the thing, hob-knobbed with Friere exclusively, etc.). While Freire may have felt compelled by faco. expectations to conform to their didactic presentation norms, he apparently fell into the mold easily enough to suggest that such a manner of presentation was by no means unknown to him, or overwhelmingly objectionable. Just goes to show yet again, perhaps, that those who can't practice it are facinated by it, and teach or write about it. And even "alternative" star scholar are vulnerable to the limitations of the "cult of personality" followers, also. By the way, I must confess that I have not read Freire's epic either. I tried once before grad school and found it incredibly philosophical and abstract, which I was in no mood for at that time. However, I've been dealing with various interpretations and distillations of it by Latin American Studies scholars and others for years, and it seems as others have commented (engaged dialogical, real world meaningful education instead of authoritative "banking model" with teachers as bank of wisdom and students given withdrawls, so to speak). His work is incredibly popular and I believe there is a new book by him and/or groupies on "Pedagogy of the Opporessed" in retrospective after 20 or 25 years, or some such thing. Anyone know the citation? From neese@nevada.edu Fri Oct 11 14:47:15 1996 Received: from pioneer.nevada.edu (pioneer.nevada.edu [131.216.1.95]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA03108 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:47:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (neese@localhost) by pioneer.nevada.edu (8.8.0/8.6.4) id NAA02633; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: DENISE M DALAIMO To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Paulo Freire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-email-warning: As a cautionary note, there have been recent instances of people forging mail addresses. If you have any reason to believe this message is not authentic, please contact the listed sender or System Computing Services at (702) 895-4585. On Fri, 11 Oct 1996 timd@LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU wrote: > His work is incredibly popular and I > believe there is a new book by him and/or groupies on "Pedagogy of the > Opporessed" in retrospective after 20 or 25 years, or some such thing. > Anyone know the citation? Freire, P. 1994. _Pedagogy of Hope: Reliving Pedagogy of the Oppressed_ Continuum. From dow2@ra.msstate.edu Sat Oct 12 09:46:06 1996 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA21288 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 09:46:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (Port17.TS2.MsState.Edu [130.18.116.145]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id KAA28733; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:45:59 -0500 Message-ID: <325FBE66.3EE5@ra.msstate.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:51:02 -0500 From: Danny Winbush MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: [Fwd: The scent of science! (fwd) -Forwarded (fwd)] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from Archive.MsState.Edu (Archive.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.12]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id JAA10105; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:50:22 -0500 Received: from Archive.MsState.Edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]); by Archive.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.7.6/7.0m-FWP-MsState); id JAA28614; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:50:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:50:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: jfp1@ra.msstate.edu Reply-To: tkt8733-02@msstate.edu Originator: tkt8733-02@msstate.edu Sender: tkt8733-02@msstate.edu Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 845045466.000 From: Chithra Nalani Keembiyehetty To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: The scent of science! (fwd) -Forwarded (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: TKT 8733 02 Class List Status: U X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hi All These are from test papers and essays submitted to science and health teachers by junior high, high school, and college students around the world. It is truly astonishing what weird science our young scholars can create under the pressures of time and grades. Read and enjoy :-) ========================================================================= "When you breath, you inspire. When you do not breath, you expire." "H2O is hot water, and CO2 is cold water" "When you smell an oderless gas, it is probably carbon monoxide" "Nitrogen is not found in Ireland because it is not found in a free state " "Water is composed of two gins, Oxygin and Hydrogin. Oxygin is pure gin. Hydrogin is gin and water." "Dew is formed on leaves when the sun shines down on them and makes them perspire." "A super-saturated solution is one that holds more than it can hold." "Mushrooms always grow in damp places and so they look like umbrellas." "The skeleton is what is left after the insides have been taken out and the outsides have ben taken off. The purpose of the skeleton is something to hitch meat to." "The tides are a fight between the Earth and moon. All water tends towards the moon, because there is no water in the moon, and nature abhors a vacuum. I forget where the sun joins in this fight." "Many women belive that an alcoholic binge will have no ill effects on the unborn fetus, but that is a large misconception." "Germinate: To become a naturalized German." "Momentum: What you give a person when they are going away." "Planet: A body of Earth surrounded by sky." "Before giving a blood transfusion, find out if the blood is affirmative or negative." "To prevent contraception: wear a condominium." "To keep milk from turning sour: Keep it in the cow." ####################################################################### Chithra K. Mississippi State Chithra@ra.msstate.edu ####################################################################### From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Oct 13 16:43:56 1996 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA07411 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:43:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2241; Sun, 13 Oct 96 18:42:53 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4664; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:42:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 96 18:42:45 EDT From: "Alan Davidson (860) 427-6700" Subject: Bad writing contest To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <961013.184252.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:39:21 CST From: system@CCTR.UMKC.EDU To: STS-LIST@CCTR.UMKC.EDU Subject: Annual Bad Writing Contest Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:13:58 +1300 From: Denis Dutton Subject: The Bad Writing Contest To: PHILOSOP@usl.edu CALL FOR ENTRIES. Philosophy and Literature announces the third Bad Writing Contest. Please cross-post the following announcement on related lists for humanities, culture theory, philosophy, social sciences, criticism, editing, etc. ********************************* The Philosophy and Literature Bad Writing Contest The challenge of the Bad Writing Contest is to come up with the ugliest, most stylistically awful single sentence from a published scholarly book or article. Ordinary journalism, fiction, etc. not allowed, nor is translation from other languages into English. Entries must be non-ironic, from actual serious academic journals or books--parodies cannot be admitted in a field where unintentional self-parody is so rampant. Winning entries will be checked by our researchers before prizes are awarded. Judging will be by editorial staff of Philosophy and Literature. Finder of the winning sentence will have first choice from among the following titles, second prize will be a choice of the remaining books, and so on. The seven prize books are: Rewriting the Soul, by Ian Hacking (Princeton), The Magician's Doubts: Nabokov and the Risks of Fiction, by Michael Wood (Princeton), Dilemmas of Enlightenment, by Oscar Kenshur (California); Killing Time, by Paul Feyerabend (Chicago); Anti-Mimesis from Plato to Hitchcock, by Tom Cohen (Cambridge); Compulsive Beauty, by Hal Foster (MIT); Georges Bataille, by Michael Richardson (Routledge). If necessary, there will be a eight prize (a copy of the journal Social Text) and ninth prize (two copies of Social Text). We've fine prizes for this third contest, so join the fun! Please use the subject heading "Bad writing entry" and copy the posting directly to Denis Dutton, editor of Philosophy and Literature, so we can keep track of the entries: d.dutton@fina.canterbury.ac.nz. The contest deadline: 31 December 1996. From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 14 07:09:15 1996 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA03609 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:09:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.6.4.3/10.1) id JAA11802; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:09:15 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:09:13 -0400 From: Pamela Paxton To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Bad writing contest In-Reply-To: <961013.184252.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does the sentence have to come from a recently published book? I think we should throw some Parsons at them. Or perhaps he has won in the past... Pam *********************************************************************** Pamela Paxton 'there is definitely, Department of Sociology definitely, definitely University of North Carolina no logic to human CB#3210, Hamilton Hall behavior.' Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 -Bjork email: ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu *********************************************************************** From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Oct 14 08:20:27 1996 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA09113 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:20:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0192; Mon, 14 Oct 96 10:19:20 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6777; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:19:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 10:18:18 EDT From: "Alan Davidson (860) 427-6700" Subject: Bad writing contest To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <961014.101919.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> I think it has to come from a current piece of work. My favorite entry is an intro. soc. text I use that defines formal organization as "an organization formally organized to achieve a specific goal." From conroyt@bu.edu Mon Oct 14 10:51:35 1996 Received: from acs3.bu.edu (ACS3.BU.EDU [128.197.153.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id KAA14985 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:51:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from conroyt@localhost) by acs3.bu.edu (8.7.6/) id MAA40223; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:46:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:46:07 -0400 (EDT) From: thomas conroy Subject: Re: Bad writing contest To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Pamela Paxton wrote: > Does the sentence have to come from a recently published book? I think > we should throw some Parsons at them. Or perhaps he has won in the past... **************************************************************************** Well, Pamela, if you think that Parsons wasn't making sense, that that explains your posting of the Bjork quote 'there is definitely, definitely, definitely no logic to human behavior.' -Bjork Tom From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mon Oct 14 11:14:08 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA15719 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:14:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id MAA29554; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:23:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199610141723.MAA29554@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:14:11 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, Sociology Graduate Students -- International From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists At 01:41 PM 10/10/96 -0400, Pamela Paxton wrote: >Hi all, >I'm brainstorming and could use some help! I'm trying to think of >ratings that might be used by sociologists in their research... I have already responded once to this posting, but I wanted to alert you to a short article in today's (Monday) New York Times. The piece announces a new report put out by an Innovations Institute of some sort at Fordham University that uses the kind of social indicators we've been talking about here. Very interesting composite measures of social inequality, "quality of social life" and so on are briefly discussed, and a few trends are abstracted back from the late 1970's. (Sorry I can not give you a better cite, but I left the paper at home and did not think of posting the info at the time...) Gavin H. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Oct 14 11:37:51 1996 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA16559 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id NAA11964; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:36:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:36:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists In-Reply-To: <199610141723.MAA29554@medicine> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Gavin Hougham wrote: > At 01:41 PM 10/10/96 -0400, Pamela Paxton wrote: > >Hi all, > >I'm brainstorming and could use some help! I'm trying to think of > >ratings that might be used by sociologists in their research... > > I have already responded once to this posting, but I wanted to alert you to > a short article in today's (Monday) New York Times. The piece announces a > new report put out by an Innovations Institute of some sort at Fordham > University that uses the kind of social indicators we've been talking about > here. Very interesting composite measures of social inequality, "quality of > social life" and so on are briefly discussed, and a few trends are > abstracted back from the late 1970's. (Sorry I can not give you a better > cite, but I left the paper at home and did not think of posting the info at > the time...) > > Gavin H. > Here's the citation for anyone who might be interested: Nick Ravo, "Index of Social Well-Being Is at the Lowest in 25 Years," New York Times, 10/14/96 p. A14 in the National Edition. Best, Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 14 15:24:49 1996 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA26393 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:24:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.6.4.3/10.1) id RAA29616; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:24:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:24:42 -0400 From: Pamela Paxton To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: help with ratings used by sociologists In-Reply-To: <199610141723.MAA29554@medicine> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I want to thank everyone who gave me information on different ratings, such as social indicators. In the beginning I was mostly interested in finding examples of ratings that had been compiled by expert judges. However, some of the postings got me thinking about statistical ratings that had come from different sources. Also, when looking through some of the journal suggestions, I found some pieces of information related to a completely different paper! Pam *********************************************************************** Pamela Paxton 'there is definitely, Department of Sociology definitely, definitely University of North Carolina no logic to human CB#3210, Hamilton Hall behavior.' Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 -Bjork email: ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu *********************************************************************** From cynthial@yorku.ca Tue Oct 15 07:17:29 1996 Received: from suntan.ccs.yorku.ca (suntan.ccs.yorku.ca [130.63.236.89]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA07502 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:17:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [130.63.122.66] (curly01.slip.yorku.ca [130.63.122.66]) by suntan.ccs.yorku.ca (8.7.6/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA19227 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:17:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: cynthial@cynthial.mail.yorku.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cynthial@yorku.ca (Cynthia Levine-Rasky) Subject: Re: Postmodern theories on race and ethnicity >Can anyone recommend any books or research articles which would have a >thorough and relatively easy to digest explanation of post modern theories >on race and ethnicity? > > >Thank you, > >Matt Marr >mat@cldc.howard.edu Re your request: "Can anyone recommend any books or research articles which would have a thorough and relatively easy to digest explanation of post modern theories on race and ethnicity?" Sure. Didn't notice anyone else respond to this request on SocGrad. I suspect the unpopularity of things postmodern in U.S. institutions, or at least the continuing hegemony of traditional research methods. York U. is in Toronto. Our grads here enjoy much permission to explore such issues. Let me suggest a few things: David Theo Goldberg, ed. (1990) "Anatomy of Racism." University of Minnesota Press. also his (1993) "Racist Culture: Philosophy and the politics of meaning." Blackwell. These would be excellent. Also, he's edited "Multiculturalism: A critical reader." (1994). Blackwell, again. My own area is race and education, so I also know about and recommend: Cameron McCarthy & Warren Crichlow (eds.) (1993). "Race, Identity and representation in education." Routledge; and Barry Kanpol & Peter McLaren (1995) "Critical multiculturalism: Uncommon voices in a common struggle." Bergin & Garvey. =46inally, I also have, but have to yet to get around to reading (you know the way these things go): Craig Calhoun (ed.) (1994). "Social theory and the politics of identity." Blackwell. There's a ton of other stuff. Try Henry Louis Gates, Stuart Hall, etc. The October 1992 issue of October (Vol. 61) has an amazing essay by Joan Scott on "Multiculturalism and the politics of identity." I guess things started with the French theorist Jacques Derrida, whose writings are intimidating (for me) to read. Very erudite and postmodernesque in style. In the 80s, I guess, he first wrote about diff=E9rence vs diff=E9rance in French. You begin to see what I mean. These texts, especially the edited ones, should get you started with many writers in the area. Good luck. Cynthia Levine-Rasky From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Wed Oct 16 05:51:17 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA27709 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9266; Wed, 16 Oct 96 07:49:01 EDT Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8412; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:49:01 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 07:33:23 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Judgment To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Message-Id: <961016.074900.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> I have given considerable thought to the question of my role on the Socgrad Network. After reading the many posts and weighing the pros and cons of faculty participation on what is and should properly be, a graduate student forum, I have come to a decision. 1. I will finish this, the third year of the lectures. 2. After that, I will: a. Set up a home page for grad students and solicit a variety of contributions each week from faculty around the country who, I believe, are doing useful work to transform American Sociology toward a more progressive and participatory practice. b. Remain on Socgrad as mentor, critic and friend. c. Work with Christine White at Oklahoma State to compile the mini-lectures from these three years in an archives which will be available to future grad students. 3. During this and the next semester, I will take the criticism of Christian and others to heart; I will try to be a bit less an authority and a bit more a colleague. Finally, I would like to thank both Christian and his many supporters for the points he/they made...it has not escaped my attention that, were I still a grad student, I would have made the same points and probably with less good grace. And, of course, I thank most kindly those who have taked the trouble to give me the kind of encouragement which warms the heart and energizes the spirit. TR From verdesc@cats.ucsc.edu Wed Oct 16 09:28:13 1996 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA09536 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from verdesc.ucsc.edu by cats.ucsc.edu with SMTP id IAA12012; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:28:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3264FF9F.5857@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:30:40 -0700 From: Christian Organization: Dept. of Sociology MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> CC: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Judgment References: <961016.074900.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T R. Young wrote: > > I have given considerable thought to the question of my role on > the Socgrad Network. After reading the many posts and weighing > the pros and cons of faculty participation on what is and should > properly be, a graduate student forum, I have come to a decision. > > 1. I will finish this, the third year of the lectures. > > 2. After that, I will: > > a. Set up a home page for grad students and solicit a variety > of contributions each week from faculty around the country > who, I believe, are doing useful work to transform American > Sociology toward a more progressive and participatory > practice. > > b. Remain on Socgrad as mentor, critic and friend. > > c. Work with Christine White at Oklahoma State to compile > the mini-lectures from these three years in an archives > which will be available to future grad students. > > 3. During this and the next semester, I will take the criticism of > Christian and others to heart; I will try to be a bit less > an authority and a bit more a colleague. > > Finally, I would like to thank both Christian and his many supporters > for the points he/they made...it has not escaped my attention that, > were I still a grad student, I would have made the same points > and probably with less good grace. And, of course, I thank most > kindly those who have taked the trouble to give me the kind of > encouragement which warms the heart and energizes the spirit. > > TR Dear TR, I really appreciatte your respectful consideration of the concerns that have been raised. I have been quiet until I knew you were back for a number of reasons. Your private correspondence with me has also been appreciatted. I am quite glad that you will stay and the "collegial role" that you have decided to adopt was all I was asking you to consider, contrary to the "witchhunters" (sic!) who thought I wanted you burned at the SocGrad Alter!! Not only do I want you to stay but I have developed a kind of respect for you that I only reserved for those that deserve it. I think your input is invaluable and will be much easier for me to dialogue with now that it isn't in the format of a lecture. Anyways, I hope others don't feel that this was 'much ado about nothing' because it was based on my principles; nothing more or less. I sincerely hope everyone is surviving in the sea of reading and deadlines. And I thank everyone who contributed something to the disscussion about pedagogical practice and its implications. Christian Harlow UC Santa Cruz From joly@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu Wed Oct 16 12:44:08 1996 Received: from cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (cholera.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.252.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA15903 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (daemon@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.232.3]) by cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id NAA17086 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:44:03 -0500 Received: from ntcs-ip5.uchicago.edu by cicero.spc.uchicago.edu with SMTP (1.38.193.4/UofC3.0) id AA10418; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:43:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:43:58 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: joly@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (Jolyon Wurr) Subject: Re: Judgment Well, TR it's a little difficult to tell but it sounds to me like you are saying you will no longer post your lectures to the list. I think this is very unfortunate. While many people will seek out and find your lectures on the web page, others who might have stumbled across them more easily on the list will never discover them buried amidst the many offerings of Web pages. I really doubt that your critics will find their lives much changed by the fact of having one or two less unwanted messages to delete each week. My sense had been that, at best, there was a balance of opinion on either side of the question of whether you should or should not continue your lectures. My casual reading, perhaps biased, was that you had more supporters than detractors. In any case, I think it's a great mistake to squelch your list voice because of a few vocal detractors. It leaves an awful chill in the air of our discourse. I always appreciate your graciousness but in this case, I think your good manners and sensitivity to others are directing you to yield to a few at the expense of the many, and to sacrifice the principle of free exchange on the alter of protecting the sentiments of self indulgent critics. Jolyon Wurr >I have given considerable thought to the question of my role on >the Socgrad Network. After reading the many posts and weighing >the pros and cons of faculty participation on what is and should >properly be, a graduate student forum, I have come to a decision. > >1. I will finish this, the third year of the lectures. > >2. After that, I will: > > a. Set up a home page for grad students and solicit a variety > of contributions each week from faculty around the country > who, I believe, are doing useful work to transform American > Sociology toward a more progressive and participatory > practice. > > b. Remain on Socgrad as mentor, critic and friend. > > c. Work with Christine White at Oklahoma State to compile > the mini-lectures from these three years in an archives > which will be available to future grad students. > >3. During this and the next semester, I will take the criticism of > Christian and others to heart; I will try to be a bit less > an authority and a bit more a colleague. > >Finally, I would like to thank both Christian and his many supporters >for the points he/they made...it has not escaped my attention that, >were I still a grad student, I would have made the same points >and probably with less good grace. And, of course, I thank most >kindly those who have taked the trouble to give me the kind of >encouragement which warms the heart and energizes the spirit. > > TR *~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~* Jolyon Wurr Graduate Student University of Chicago Department of Sociology (773) 376-6145 *~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~* From donnab@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu Wed Oct 16 18:09:12 1996 Received: from PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (portland.caps.maine.edu [130.111.130.4]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id SAA01137 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu by PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 16 Oct 96 20:07:09 EDT Received: from MUSKIE2/TEMPQ by muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 96 20:09:23 EST5EDT Received: from TEMPQ by MUSKIE2 (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 96 20:09:03 EST5EDT Received: from [130.111.130.203] by muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 96 20:08:57 EST5EDT Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: donnab@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Donna C. Bird) Subject: TR's proposal Hey, all, Just read TR's proposal for his continued involvement in socgrad. I think he's come up with an excellent solution. I'm especially looking forward to the home page! On my computer at work I have saved messages from earlier this month which I've been meaning to answer---one about studying alternative healing, etc. within sociology, and one about the problem/challenge of a committee that expects/requires the use of positivistic research methods that are completely at odds with the complexity of the subjectand with your own values/beliefs. I will have to print those out and bring them home, where I have some peace and quiet and can write whole sentences without someone interrupting me. Sorry I didn't respond sooner... Now I gotta get back to data entry---working on my dissertation during evenings and weekends is CRAZY! Best to all, Donna Donna C. Bird Research Associate Edmund S. Muskie Institute of Public Affairs University of Southern Maine PO Box 9300 Portland, ME 04104-9300 207/780-4102 phone 207/780-4417 fax donnab@usm.maine.edu e-mail From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Thu Oct 17 06:53:48 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA09977 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0435; Thu, 17 Oct 96 08:51:32 EDT Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4033; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:51:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 08:41:07 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Re: Judgment To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:43:58 -0500 from Message-Id: <961017.085132.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Jolyon: I did not make myself clear...I will continue the mini-lectures for the rest of this academic year...I will set up a home page for grad students in sociology...and will post notices on socgrad on what is new and might be useful to you...at that time. I cherish the time I've had on Socgrad and fully intend to continue the connection...I've found a great deal of support and have met just dozens of friends through Socgrad...I shan't surrender that. And a word about the dialogue we've had on the network about the kind and quality of my participation... I read the original post by Christian as an honest critique of both the fact and the character of my mini-lectures. I think that socgrad, and I as well as discussants benefitted from that critique. As I told Christian, sometimes we radical democratic postmodern socialist sociologists need reminding what we are all about...I am well pleased with both the original criticism and the way we, together, responded to it. And thank you for your most encouraging support. TR From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Thu Oct 17 07:04:22 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA10312 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:04:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0515; Thu, 17 Oct 96 09:02:05 EDT Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4510; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:02:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 08:59:36 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Job Announcement (fwd) To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Message-Id: <961017.090204.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> For your information....TR ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: "Jipson Art" To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Subject: Job Announcement X-To: "AHS" , "alan bruce" , TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu, Please post widely... Assistant Professor, tenure track, beginning August 1997 (Ph.D. required). Primary emphases include urban sociology and demography, with a secondary focus in social policy. The candidate will also be expected to teach introductory sociology. We seek a candidate with demonstrated teaching excellence and a strong commitment to scholarly activities. The successful candidate will exhibit a strong commitment to liberal education and have a broad theoretical background. The review process will begin on January 15, 1997. Miami University is an Equal Opportunity employer. Submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, a statement of teaching philosophy, and the names of three references to Dr. Kay Phillips, Chair, Search Committee, Department of Sociology, Gerontology, & Anthropology, Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45056. Thanks. -Art Jipson Art Jipson Department of Sociology, Gerontology, and Anthropology Upham Hall Miami University Oxford, Ohio 45056 513-529-2637 (o) 513-529-2628 (d) 513-529-8525 (f) jipsonaj@muohio.edu jipsonaj@casmail.muohio.edu Me: http://miavx1.muohio.edu/~ajjipson NCSA: http://miavx1.muohio.edu/~ajjipson/NCSA.htmlx Connells: http://miavx1.muohio.edu/~ajjipson/connells.htmlx "What goes wrong, your causing it." - J. Farrar From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Oct 17 12:28:06 1996 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA24672 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:28:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA12309; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:27:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:27:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: JOB POSTING: Asst. Director for Survey Operations (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:36:55 -0400 From: Paul J. Lavrakas, Ph.D. To: Multiple recipients of list SRMSNET Subject: JOB POSTING: Asst. Director for Survey Operations PH.D. LEVEL POSITION AVAILABLE: Assistant Director for Operations at Ohio State University's new survey center on the Columbus campus. PREFERRED STARTING DATE: November 11, 1996 EDUCATION/BACKGROUND: Ph.D. in a quantitative social science discipline, with a solid background in research methodology and in survey methods, in particular. In addition, the person being sought should be enthused about survey research, have a high energy level yet with a relaxed demeanor, have strong interpersonal skills, be a "team player," and be a highly reliable individual of utmost integrity. UNIT DESCRIPTION: Ohio State University's College of Social and Behavioral Sciences established a new survey research unit in July, 1996. The mission of the unit includes: (1) enhance OSU faculty and student scholarship through the conduct of high quality, cost-beneficial survey research and, thereby, add to the academic reputation of the University; (2) provide survey research services to internal and external (public- and private-sector) clients; (3) train students in survey research methods; and (4) advance the state of knowledge in survey methodology. The unit contains a 20-station CATI facility. Five social science departments of the College have assigned a total of 10 full-year doctoral-track graduate assistantships to the survey center. A number of other University and College resources also have been committed to provide the unit a solid financial underpinning. In November, 1996, the unit will field the first of a continuing monthly survey of Ohio residents, the "Buckeye State Poll." This RDD survey, with a monthly sample size varying between 800-1,200, will gather a varied set of social indicators on a recurring monthly or quarterly basis. The Columbus Dispatch and WBNS-TV are major funders of this monthly statewide survey. POSITION DESCRIPTION/RESPONSIBILITIES: The Assistant Director for Operations is a full-time, salaried position. The person reports to the Director of the center who is a tenured member of the OSU faculty with a 50% administrative appointment to the unit. The Asst. Director is charged with overseeing the daily operations and services of the unit. This primarily includes maintaining a high calibre CATI data collection and data processing staff. The Asst. Director works with the Director to develop the operational polices/practices of the unit and sees that they are routinely implemented at a high level of quality and quantity. On occasion, the Asst. Director will serve as project director for client-sponsored studies and may be required to provide full survey research services to select clients (e.g., questionnaire development and refinement, sampling advice, analyses, and report writing). The Asst. Director also is expected to help advance the scholarship mission of the center by collaborating on original research in survey methods. The Asst. Director works with the Director to help market the unit's services to potential internal and external clients. APPLICATION: Interested and qualified individuals should fax a brief cover letter and vita/resume to the attention of the center's director, Dr. Paul J. Lavrakas, at 614-292-6673, or mailed to his attention at Room 0126 Derby Hall, Ohio State University, 154 N Oval Mall, Columbus OH 43210. The Ohio State University is an Equal Opportunity, Affirmative Action Employer. Women, minorities, veterans, and individuals with disabilities are encouraged to apply. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Paul J. Lavrakas, Ph.D. * * Professor of Communication & Journalism * * Director, Survey Research Unit * * College of Social & Behavioral Sciences, Ohio State University * * Derby Hall [Room 0126], 154 N. Oval Mall, Columbus OH 43210 * * Voice: 614-292-3468 Fax: 614-292-6673 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu Thu Oct 17 13:57:33 1996 Received: from VMS2.TAMU.EDU (VMS2.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.14]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA26751 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:57:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171957.NAA26751@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from sadberry.tamu.edu by VMS2.TAMU.EDU with SMTP; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:57:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "Timothy M. Chester" To: "Socgrad Network" Subject: T.R. Young's Future Departure Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:00:28 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the group, After reading T.R.'s decision, I must admit that I have developed some very strong feelings towards this situation, thus, I some of this may be in somewhat harsh terms. Those of you out there who have challenged T.R. based on some type of "power-reflexive" stance have done a great disservice to the list, and graduate students in general. This incident is nothing more than another example of "critical theory" gone wrong. You can take this crap too damn far, and it has been done in this case. T.R. Young was out in the streets of this country challenging capitalists, exploiters, and fighting for the oppressed before any of us were ever even thought of. And now, for him to be berated because Christian perceived that he "takes a position of power" relative to the rest of the list is nothing more than a bunch of mindless gibberish. For someone to claim that he may be "oppressing" graduate students through his lectures is nothing but bullshit. It would be allot better of those of you who have nothing to do but be critical of everything you encounter find something else to do with your time. This excessiveness is killing critical theory today, and if you don't believe it talk to a couple of editors at publishing houses. Critical theory today is not selling anywhere near it was ten or even five years ago, because it excesses are again beginning to outweigh its advantages. This is what killed the sixties movement. None of this probably makes much sense, but we are far worse for the actions of a few who subscribe from this list. You have done all of us a great disservice. Tim Chester ______________________________________ Timothy M. Chester Department of Sociology Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77845-4351 (409) 845-5133 (Voice) (409) 862-2285 (FAX) tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu (Email) From br00361@binghamton.edu Thu Oct 17 14:45:20 1996 Received: from bingsun3.cc.binghamton.edu (bingsun3.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA01901 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:45:18 -0600 (MDT) From: br00361@binghamton.edu Received: from localhost (br00361@localhost) by bingsun3.cc.binghamton.edu (8.8.0/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA27465 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:46:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: br00361@bingsun3 To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: T.R. Young's Future Departure In-Reply-To: <199610171957.NAA26751@csf.Colorado.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I completly agree with you Tim. Thanks for giving voice to what I was feeling and trying to write down. Joshua On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Timothy M. Chester wrote: > To the group, > > After reading T.R.'s decision, I must admit that I have developed some very > strong feelings towards this situation, thus, I some of this may be in > somewhat harsh terms. > > Those of you out there who have challenged T.R. based on some type of > "power-reflexive" stance have done a great disservice to the list, and > graduate students in general. This incident is nothing more than another > example of "critical theory" gone wrong. You can take this crap too damn > far, and it has been done in this case. > > T.R. Young was out in the streets of this country challenging capitalists, > exploiters, and fighting for the oppressed before any of us were ever even > thought of. And now, for him to be berated because Christian perceived > that he "takes a position of power" relative to the rest of the list is > nothing more than a bunch of mindless gibberish. For someone to claim that > he may be "oppressing" graduate students through his lectures is nothing > but bullshit. It would be allot better of those of you who have nothing to > do but be critical of everything you encounter find something else to do > with your time. This excessiveness is killing critical theory today, and > if you don't believe it talk to a couple of editors at publishing houses. > Critical theory today is not selling anywhere near it was ten or even five > years ago, because it excesses are again beginning to outweigh its > advantages. This is what killed the sixties movement. > > None of this probably makes much sense, but we are far worse for the > actions of a few who subscribe from this list. You have done all of us a > great disservice. > > Tim Chester > > ______________________________________ > Timothy M. Chester > Department of Sociology > Texas A&M University > College Station, TX 77845-4351 > (409) 845-5133 (Voice) > (409) 862-2285 (FAX) > tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu (Email) > From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Oct 17 16:03:22 1996 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA06488 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:03:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost on ttyt9) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27562 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199610172203.PAA27562@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: critical theory Before we get embroiled in more discussions about free speech, list participation, and the like, can I make a suggestion? (it's only a suggestion, not a mandate :) ). I think T.R. has graciously stated his intentions for future participation on the list, and so those who enjoy his mini-lectures will be able to continue receiving them. In other words, why don't we consider that issue resolved. On the other hand, Tim has raised provocative questions about critical theory that are probably worth discussing, but perhaps it would be best to do so one step removed from the recent debate over who speaks on Socgrad. So in an effort to further the conversation, I'll ask what everyone thinks about whether the academic left has marginalized itself through its theoretical and political stances. And if I get it together, perhaps I'll try to put out an answer myself. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From FD91@VM.ACS.UNT.EDU Thu Oct 17 16:07:19 1996 Received: from VM.ACS.UNT.EDU (vm.acs.unt.edu [129.120.1.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA06599 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610172207.QAA06599@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from VM.ACS.UNT.EDU by VM.ACS.UNT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9659; Thu, 17 Oct 96 17:05:41 CDT Received: from VM.ACS.UNT.EDU (FD91) by VM.ACS.UNT.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf004) with BSMTP id 4116; Thu, 17 Oct 96 17:05:40 CDT Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 17:01:20 CDT From: Victor Subject: T R To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu I am just wondering if Christian likes the way profs teach in Universities. Since T R upset you so much, how are u handling grad school. If you are still putting up with it, you are not being true to your words...What a disservice.... From verdesc@cats.ucsc.edu Thu Oct 17 17:43:47 1996 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id RAA10743 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:43:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from verdesc.ucsc.edu by cats.ucsc.edu with SMTP id QAA03601; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:43:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3266C549.5CEB@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:46:18 -0700 From: Christian Organization: Dept. of Sociology MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: T.R. Young's Future Departure<--What? he's not leaving!! Get it straight. References: <199610171957.NAA26751@csf.Colorado.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy M. Chester wrote: > > To the group, > > After reading T.R.'s decision, I must admit that I have developed some very > strong feelings towards this situation, thus, I some of this may be in > somewhat harsh terms. > > Those of you out there who have challenged T.R. based on some type of > "power-reflexive" stance have done a great disservice to the list, and > graduate students in general. Whats the disservice? I don't get it? Challenging someone to reexamine their role? Noone has force TR to do anything. Your input in this situatin has continuously been rude and filled with hot air. You should take TR's lead and not be so irrational just because your little world was challenged. TR alone has decided to do what he will do. And I appreciate his thoughtfulness and courtesy: You should take notes. Read his posting again on this matter he feels that this entire episode has been a plus for the list, I can only agree. This incident is nothing more than another > example of "critical theory" gone wrong. You can take this crap too damn > far, and it has been done in this case. I disagree. First of all your bias against critical theory is self-evident. Why is it 'crap'? I find it a quite useful method of analysis and Habermas has done more in shoring up the modernist counterpoint to the nihilism of POMO and the neoconservative/American sociologies than just about anyone I can think of. > > T.R. Young was out in the streets of this country challenging capitalists, > exploiters, and fighting for the oppressed before any of us were ever even > thought of. And now, for him to be berated because Christian perceived > that he "takes a position of power" relative to the rest of the list is > nothing more than a bunch of mindless gibberish. For someone to claim that > he may be "oppressing" graduate students through his lectures is nothing > but bullshit. You wanna interpret these last two sentences for me, please? Form an argument or something. Take a look at the hollowness of your own point of view. Theres nothing here but unfounded emotional assertions. I don't feel that TR needs this kind of "help". I have come to find out that he is indeed a gracious and thoughtful man who is not afraid to examine himself...and I admire this especially when you take a look at the egoistic defensive postures that many in academia employ. We should welcome being challenged. In my own life its when I've experienced the greatest growth. Tommy Morrelo (guitarist for Rage Against the Machine) said something that I hope TR would agree with, "I feel very comfortable in a culture of constant resistant." Oh ya this is the last time I say this: I NEVER SAID HE SHOULD LEAVE!!!! And just for the record: I AM GLAD HE IS STAYING!!! It would be allot better of those of you who have nothing to > do but be critical of everything you encounter find something else to do > with your time. This excessiveness is killing critical theory today, and > if you don't believe it talk to a couple of editors at publishing houses. > Critical theory today is not selling anywhere near it was ten or even five > years ago, because it excesses are again beginning to outweigh its > advantages. So Tim, you wanna share with us some info to back this up? No check that. I don't need sales figures to justify Critical Theories worth. Since when has the worth of a theory been based on its sale figures. I also find the relationship between its excesses being greater than its advantages causing its worth to decline, tenuous at best. Would you say the same of Feminist theory? What exactly are critical theories excesses? I think they are relatively slight and unimportant compared to the urgent necessity of critiquing the reified ideologies of the elite cultural/media establishment. It is not killing itself...As a matter of fact I for one beleive that some form of complex, structurally critical analyisis will emerge as a new paradigm of social theory after Sociology develops a new way to comprehend this globalized/fractured/postmodern reality. > > None of this probably makes much sense, Your right about that one, Try again after you've chilled out. If this isn't such a big deal than why did you exert so much negative energy to it? I think that this ongoing discussion has been the most active and interesting that I have seen here. I apologize for some of my more biting comments, yet I feel that Tim's personal attack is unwarranted and meanspirited. From CSBAC@scm.mission.com.au Thu Oct 17 18:59:32 1996 Received: from kyoko.mpx.com.au (kyoko.mpx.com.au [203.2.75.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id SAA14478 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:59:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rosebay.matra.com.au(really [203.18.150.1]) by kyoko.mpx.com.au via smail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 10:59:28 +1000 (EST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.8 built 5-oct-95) Received: from scm.UUCP (root@localhost) by rosebay.matra.com.au with UUCP id LAA19880 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:01:34 +1000 Message-ID: <199610180101.LAA19880@rosebay.matra.com.au> Received: from CSBAC@scm.mission.com.au (Brian Cooper) by WPEGWAF ver. á0.6 at Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:10:12 +1000 From: CSBAC@scm.mission.com.au (Brian Cooper) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:10:12 +1000 Subject: Re: T.R. Young's Future Departure<--What? he's not leaving! Priority: normal Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:46:18 -0700 Reply-to: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Christian To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: T.R. Young's Future Departure<--What? he's not leaving!! Get it straight. Timothy M. Chester wrote: I find this entire debate about T.R. Young sickening and has shades of political censorship. It appears that one individual who perhaps needs to open their mind up to a range social theories and intellectual discourse has objected to the opinions of perhaps a wiser and more experienced individual. >From what I understand of post graduate study, one the objectives is for a person to be able to reflect on a range of social theories. To eliminate a source of ideas and because a person finds them objectionable is to impose their value system on others. It that what dictatorships of various forms do. Brian Cooper. From tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu Fri Oct 18 14:50:40 1996 Received: from VMS2.TAMU.EDU (VMS2.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.14]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id OAA29320 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:50:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610182050.OAA29320@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from sadberry.tamu.edu by VMS2.TAMU.EDU with SMTP; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:50:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "Timothy M. Chester" To: "Socgrad Network" Subject: Christian's comments Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:44 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian, You don't know anything about me or my work, and if anyone cares to see who launched a "mean-spirited" attack on another, all they need to do is compare my message to yours. Anyway, it was not my intention to start another discussion that gets us nowhere, so I will drop the subject for now. However, I am glad to see that since I posted my comments yesterday, there have only been on person who objected to them: that was you. There are other reasons which I have been angered by this situation which I am not free to discuss in an open forumn, but if you wish to discuss them with me, feel free to call me at my office or my home. My home number is (409) 260-4552. All the best to everyone, Tim Chester ______________________________________ Timothy M. Chester Department of Sociology Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77845-4351 (409) 845-5133 (Voice) (409) 862-2285 (FAX) tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu (Email) From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Sun Oct 20 06:06:12 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA21205 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 06:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8791; Sun, 20 Oct 96 08:03:57 EDT Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0610; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:03:57 -0400 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 06:16:13 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Sex and the Simple Society To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Message-Id: <961020.080356.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Today is the 15th anniversary of the death of my dear wife. With your kind indulgence, I will dedicate this mini-lecture to her. I met Dorothy when she was nine and I was twelve...we married when she was 18. She helped me study for tests at Flint Junior College; she typed my papers for the Master's at Michigan; she prepared me for the comps at Colorado; she helped me build the Red Feather Insitute and hosted all the people who attended those conferences. She marched with me in the Poor People's March; the Anti-war marches; the Civil Rights Marches. Together we worked with the women at Colorado State University when they organized to resist the sexism on campus. Our house was home to the Black and Chicano students who confronted the administration and occupied the office of the President until their demands were met. Dorothy gave me five children and made our home a refuge and a haven when things were difficult in the department...she was friend and mentor to dozens of faculty wives new to academic life. She died in a fall; dancing with my daughters at a party she had organized for the women with whom she worked...they were teaching her a new country dance. I was away in Cinncinati at the AHS conferences. She was a a good woman, a good wife and a good mother. I miss her terribly. TRY. ************* Most of what I want to say about sexual norms and gender relations apply to simple agrarian societies. There are many simple societies in which sexual norms are very, very different and in which gendering is done in differing ways. It is those simple agrarian societies in Europe and the Middle East which imprison our sexuality and pre-shape our gender orientations. I would like to help grad students locate these social obligations in the political economy in which they develop and in which they do make sense. I need not say that we live in a very different society today...I will try to explain the transformation of sexual norms and gender forms in the next mini-lecture. 1. Over against the view that sexual norms and gender relations are set by biology, by Divine Law or by universal functional imperative, I make a case that a very special form of social life and a very special kind of property law calls forth/requires/justifies the socialization, the social control tactics and the social outrage which together, shape and mis-shape human sexuality. 2. Predatory Economics. For a great part of human history, small raiding parties would be sent out to steal weapons, herds, tools, utinsels, women and children from neighboring tribes. Such bands can still be found in the back country of Asia, South America, Africa and Micronesia. The logic of the distribution of the spoils of war was such that younger males who raided, robbed and risked their lives were denied the wealth they stole. The rule was that senior men took property rights; they later shared it out within a kinship system. Several interconnected devices were used to motivate young men again and again to risk their lives in this economic activity: a. Rape. Young men were given the right to rape the women, children and men of the village they raided. From the wars of ancient Greece and Rome to the wars in Vietnam and Guat- emala, soldiers raped and officers looked away. b. Esteem. Young men who exhibited special courage or had special luck were deemed favored of the gods and given honor- ific titles. The thought was that the gods decided the out- come of every contest...from the toss of dice to the path of warfare. c. Status. In many simple societies, young men were required to kill an 'enemy' before they were accorder adult standing. And as success in killing continued, status honor and advancement in status-roles continued. 2. Settled Agriculture. Some 40,000 years ago, nomadic life gave way to dry farming techniques...survival for a band or tribe was a bit more certain when crops were raised and animals domesticated for food, milk, fabric and labor. This changed sexual norms dramatically. Where before, the sexuality of young people was theirs to act upon more from desire than from duty, now sexuality became hostage to property rights to farm, field and herd. Since the fate of an entire family rested upon ownership of a given section of land, access to a given body of water, rights to a given herd of animals, residence in a given set of buildings, the question of property inheritance became very, very important. As Chief Seattle said, who can own the clouds, the rivers, the mountains or the stars...a rhetorical question at the time since their was no means to enforce such property rights. But one could claim title to land and herds. The question became who...who had title to property when the owner died. The choices are many. It could be shared out to every one in the family...one person could own a room, a bowl and a cow while others on the farm owned their room, bowl and cow...but farming is an integrated endeavor. The division of labor makes sense but the division of wealth is a problem. So...how to keep the wealth together and in service of the family as a whole....the answer settled down upon the sexuality of women. A whole set of sexual norms arose with which to guarantee that there would be undisputed transfer of property rights in farm and field. The simple societies from which we Americans get our sexual norms used primo-geniture as a rule for transfer of property from one generation to another. A little known companion norm was a norm which prevented the heir from selling the land from out of the family. But it was female sexuality which was more dramatically harnessed to the problem of property transfer. A wife/wives could not be allowed to have 'sexual congress' with men not her husband since, in a twinned event; that of a child 'out of wedlock' and that of death of the land holding husband, another family could claim ownership of the land by virtue of the fact of the child. He was the child of the father...not the mother; he inherited; he was a minor...his father was custodian of the land...and so another family claimed the right to dispossess the incumbent family... In order to keep lines of descent clear and avoid such momentus claims, a set of sexual norms were lain upon women: a. The norm of virginity. A woman had to come to the marriage 'unspoiled' by sexual intercourse with another male...this had the effect of discounting claims that another male was father to the first child...recall that the first male inherits in the rule of primogeniture... b. The norm of fidelity. A married woman was to limit their sexuality to the marriage form. The reader will note that unfettered sexuality of males was not a threat to property transfer...indeed, rape of a virgin could become a basis for claims against any property she might hold...since she had the choice of marrying the rapist or being stoned/scorned. This still happens in Italy and Sicily; a mock rape or a real can be a basis for 'claiming a woman.' c. The norm of Chastity. In the ordinary course of events, men were often away...especially in feudal societes when men had fuedal obligations to lords and could be levied to labor to to war. Women were told that they must deny their sexuality while the husband was away...as we know, Guinivere did not do so and she was made to pay...as was Lancelot when Arthur found out about it. d. The norm of Celibacy. Women who did not marry were not to have sex...this would do two things...retain claims to virginity in the odd chance she might marry late and, at the same time, prevent the birth of 'bastard' children. One should note that 'bastardy' is itself a concept which makes sense only in a given kind of political economy...most babies born for much of history would be called bastard is such societies. e. The norm of frigidity. The idea that sex is not fun/joyful/ enlivening and worthwhile in and of itself is a norm special to a society which tries to control both female sexuality and female fecundity. The first point resonates with the norms of virginity, fidelity and chastity above. The second arises in societies which live on the margins of survival. 4. Low Tech Societies. Low tech societies arrive at the carrying capacity of a given biome very, very quickly. Over-population is a concept which makes sense only in a society in which small is beautiful...in more productive lands, every child is welcome; every child is considered a blessing...female sexuality is more likely to be vested in desire and delight. We got our sexual norms from a small tribe in a dry and sere land. Arabs, Jews, and Australian Aborigines live close to the margins of death...the notion of a 'surplus' population comes quickly in low tech societies. Birth control techniques...also low tech, mean that female sexuality becomes hostage to the political economy of the land. A healthy woman could produce children for 25 or 30 years...families of 10, 15, 20 are not unknown in well endowed lands. Indeed, the King of Saudi Arabia is said to have 900 children and grandchildren... oil revenues make each son a millionaire at birth. I have read of the birth control tactics of low tech societies. They are not easy to read...much less to use. Terrible pain and great danger is visited upon women who try to dispose of 'unwanted' children...babies are exposed...babies are dashed against rocks... female babies are left for cattle to trample...second twins are buried with the afterbirth. Abortion tactics are vile and violent. In such societies, virginity, chastity and celibacy are pounded into the heads of female children from the time they are born until they reach menopause. 5. Social Security. Even in low tech societies; even in meagre lands, there is often pressure on women...married women...to produce more and still more babies...indeed, women are turned into baby factory and there is good reason for a norm which calls forth large families. In a low tech society, old age is rare for most but even so, one must think about one's 'golden years.' In Ireland, in England, in France and in Germany as elsewhere, large families are held to be desireable regardless of the health of the mother...indeed, the cry against abortion today is an echo of the cry for social security in a time and land of poverty...it works like this: a. In a low tech society, infant mortality rates are high. b. In a patriarchal society, male children are at a premium. c. In a patrilineal society, female children move to the family of the husband. d. In a society in which the family is the center and source of social security, the woman must bear at least ten children... in order to ensure one surviving male who can inherit the property and look after the parents in their old age: 1) 5 will die before age 1...that leaves 5. 2) half will be female...who will move out and not be around to feed, nurse, help aging parents. That leaves 2 or 3 sons. 3) the eldest son will inherit and is charged with the care of the parents...the second and third son are back-up; insurance in case the eldest dies of war or disease. a) one is to go to the church; one to the army...that leaves 1. In all this, female sexuality is the primary vehicle for solving the problems of property and population. In high tech societies, female sexuality and gendering patterns take different pathways. When I return from the Humanist Sociology Conference in Hartford, I will pick up on Sexual Norms in Complex Societies and try to think, along with the reader, what happens to sexual norms in a time of affluence and secure seniority. Its good to be back, TR From Ologygrad@aol.com Mon Oct 21 12:05:13 1996 Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA04604 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:05:11 -0600 (MDT) From: Ologygrad@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA01184 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:05:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:05:13 -0400 Message-ID: <961021140513_130529652@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Christian's comments Once again, I ditto Christian's comments fully. I also ditto Laura Miller's suggestion to remove this discussion from the realm of TR and his lectures. Timothy M. Chester, I am of the opinion that you are out of control. Ivy Kennelly From nrw1@Ra.MsState.Edu Mon Oct 21 13:45:04 1996 Received: from Tut.MsState.Edu (Tut.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA07962 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:45:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Isis.MsState.Edu (nrw1@Isis.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.11]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP); id OAA19009; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:44:51 -0500 Received: from localhost (nrw1@localhost); by Isis.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.0c-FWP); id OAA25348; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:44:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:44:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "Neil R. White" X-Sender: nrw1@Isis.MsState.Edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: What is need In-Reply-To: <961021140513_130529652@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm trying to prepare for my prelims and dissertation in the area of social change/religion. I come from the basic premis that human beings have a basic need (yes need- not just a desire) for meaningful interaction with others (Blumer). Religion is one way people meet this need. My main problem, if it isn't painfully obvious at this point, is how do I (or even we as a discipline) define need? Help! I need to know what need is. Any references or comments would be appreciated. I will try and put together some sort of summary for the list. Neil R. White In the beginning, nothing stranger had ever happened. From baubb@UDel.Edu Mon Oct 21 14:17:53 1996 Received: from UCSD.EDU (mailbox2.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.54]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA09489 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:17:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by UCSD.EDU (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA14130 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strauss.udel.edu (strauss.udel.edu [128.175.13.74]) by copland.udel.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11699 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:17:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert S Gossweiler To: SOCGRAD Subject: Imputing meaning to Lurker's attitudes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am one of the lurking people who support both Christian *and* TR's dialogue about the issue of lecturing on a discussion group. (I guess Tim Chester missed methods class when they were talking about non-response rates and what they mean. I also find it interesting that TC wanted to go private only after he gets the last word/flame in.) Please take flames to alt.flames or go private. I've always wondered why students spend so much time sniping and back stabing each other rather than being supportive. Do we not get enough crap from faculty not to be pounding on our fellow students? Or are some of what we do is just reproducing what we learn (e.g., right of passage, lack of self confidence....)? Please forgive my overgeneralization, but I know there is a sociological question in here somewhere.... Here's an issue for discussion: Why and when do flames occur? That is, what are some sociological reasons/theory of flaming? Are some dialogues or topics more likely to flame than others? Are flames more likely to be associated with certain social arenas or communications mediums (e.g., electronic discussion groups vs discussions at professional meetings)? How does the raising of a question get turned into a personal attribute, and what does this mean for us as teachers (who sometimes want to ask abrasive questions)? Later, Bob G. PS who wants to make a bet that TC flames me next? Can we come up with a predictive theory of response? ;-) On Mon, 21 Oct 1996 Ologygrad@aol.com wrote: > Once again, I ditto Christian's comments fully. I also ditto Laura Miller's > suggestion to remove this discussion from the realm of TR and his lectures. > Timothy M. Chester, I am of the opinion that you are out of control. > > Ivy Kennelly > Robert S. Gossweiler, Email: baubb@strauss.udel.edu U.of DE, Soc.Dept., Center for Drug & Alcohol Studies From tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu Mon Oct 21 15:01:46 1996 Received: from VMS2.TAMU.EDU (VMS2.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.14]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA11664 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:01:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610212101.PAA11664@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from sadberry.tamu.edu by VMS2.TAMU.EDU with SMTP; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:01:47 -0500 (CDT) From: "Timothy M. Chester" To: "Socgrad Network" Subject: On whether I took methods. Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:04:59 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert, and to the others, Gees! And someone thinks I'm out of control. First, I think that it is safe to say that Christian and I settled our differences outside of this forum. That ax has been buried. Secondly, it really doesn't bother me when personal attacks are thrown my way. However, I do get concerned when my friends are attacked, and that is why I was quick to come to T.R.'s defense, and bitter over his decision to leave the list next year. As for me, I plan to leave the list today. It no longer serves a purpose for me, or for most graduate students. At least that is what my friends here and elsewhere tell me. Perhaps I live in a world that is on the fringe, but at least it is a world where respect, love, and compassion really mean something, where we respect our elders for who they are and what they have done with their lives, where we don't hide our emotions, but value them as an integral part of human existence. Best to everyone and the work they do, and if I can ever offer someone assistance please don't hesitate to let me know. All the best, Tim Chester ______________________________________ Timothy M. Chester Department of Sociology Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77845-4351 (409) 845-5133 (Voice) (409) 862-2285 (FAX) tmc7049@acs.tamu.edu (Email) From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Tue Oct 22 06:51:40 1996 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA06106 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 06:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id IAA12728; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:50:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:50:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: William Julius Wilson on NPR's Talk of the Nation Today (10/22/96) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just heard that William Julius Wilson will be on the NPR show Talk of the Nation today. He'll be talking about his new book "When work goes away." This show airs at 3PM on our local NPR station; don't know whether this varies, since it is a call-in show. Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Tue Oct 22 07:49:27 1996 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA10134 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:49:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id JAA14580; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:48:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: job announcement (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:23:50 -0500 From: Kathleen McKinney To: teachsoc@maple.lemoyne.edu Subject: job announcement Colleagues: Please post or circulate. Thanks. Illinois State University. The Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology invites applications for a tenure-track position at the Assistant Professor level to begin August, 1997. A primary area of specialization in statistics and/or quantitative methods is required; secondary areas of specialization are open. Candidates must have completed a Ph.D. in Sociology or Anthropology by the time of the appointment. Review of applications will begin November 30, 1996. Send curriculum vitae, a statement of current research and teaching interests, and three letters of reference to: Search Committee, Illinois State University, Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology, Box 4660, Normal, IL 61790-4660. ISU is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer encouraging diversity. From kenu@cc1.uca.edu Tue Oct 22 14:40:28 1996 Received: from aix1.uca.edu (aix1.uca.EDU [161.31.1.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id OAA01942 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:40:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cc1.uca.EDU by aix1.uca.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06089; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:42:53 -0500 Received: from CC1/MERQUEUE by cc1.uca.edu (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 22 Oct 96 15:39:49 +3600 Received: from MERQUEUE by CC1 (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 22 Oct 96 15:39:46 +3600 From: "Ken Upham" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:39:42 CST6CDT Subject: Re: William Julius Wilson on NPR's Talk of the Nation Today (10 Priority: normal Message-Id: <136C5830909@cc1.uca.edu> I really appreciated the notice from Jim Cassell about William Julius Wilson being on NPR today. Such timely notice is really helpful. I had no other way to have known in time to tune in. Thanks. Ken Upham ******************************** kenu@cc1.uca.edu Dr. W. Kennedy Upham Sociology University of Central Arkansas Conway, AR 72035-5001 ******************************** From donnab@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu Tue Oct 22 17:08:40 1996 Received: from PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (portland.caps.maine.edu [130.111.130.4]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id RAA13420 for ; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:08:38 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:08:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu by PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 22 Oct 96 19:06:38 EDT Received: from MUSKIE2/TEMPQ by muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 22 Oct 96 19:08:51 EST5EDT Received: from TEMPQ by MUSKIE2 (Mercury 1.21); 22 Oct 96 19:08:34 EST5EDT Received: from [130.111.130.194] by muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 22 Oct 96 19:08:25 EST5EDT Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: donnab@muskie2.usmacs.maine.edu (Donna C. Bird) Subject: belated replies to Jess and Denys Hey, all, You may have heard about (or experienced directly) the rainy tail of hurricane Lili that blew across parts of New England over the weekend and into the early part of this week. Here in Portland, ME, the storm gave us a foot of rain, flooded a lot of roads and buildings, andknocked our municipal water system off line (12 hours and counting...). The University of Southern Maine, where I work, canceled classes and closed offices, so I stayed home and worked. I printed out the e-mail messages that Jess Maguire and Denys Delany posted earlier in the month. I meant to reply to both when I first saw them, but don't have time to THINK most days at work, and didn't want to write without being able to look at their messages. So now I have them printed out and sitting next to the keyboard. Jess---ten to fifteen years ago I was interested in holistic healing, intentional communities, and worker-owned businesses, among other things. I did an independent master's degree at Goddard College that I called "visionary planning." I was interested in exploring ways that people could use their right brains and/or collective consciousness to think about the future. It's something I think that earlier communities/societies probably did. I know when I finished that master's degree that I wanted a PhD. I didn't really know what a PhD was, or what it would do for (or to) me. I tried the future studies program at UMAss/Amherst, which wouldn't let me take courses outside the School of Education, and the independent PhD program of Walden University (which was interesting, but cost about $10K a semester---ow!) I finally decided to go to the University of Connecticut, because the program had a track for people interested in social science and health. I didn't know much about sociology before I went to UConn, so I had to start at square one. I'm a lot more focused on health policy than on alternative healing at this point (although I still love herbal medicine and polarity therapy). I think the theorists have a lot of good stuff to say. I took a course in qualitative methods (really just grounded theory) that would work beautifully with the substantive areas you like. Check out the works of Anselm Strauss and people who have studied with him, like Kathy Charmaz and Bob Broadhead. I think that the anthropologists might have a lot to say to you, too---they tend to be a lot more at ease with some of the messier, less easily quanitified, aspects of human existence. Don't let sociology take you away from your passions! Figure out how to make it work for you! Denys---most of my paid work, as well as my dissertation, has to do with social policy analysis. While I hang out in health policy for the most part, I'm also the data director for the Maine Kids Count project, which brings me into contact with policy issues having to do with welfare, crime, child abuse and neglect, education, and substance abuse. I gather and disseminate data which others presumably use to advocate for policy, develop programs to address needs, or adopt new rules and laws. I try to give them the most accurate and understandable data I can get, and to provide them with information about its limitations. I'm rereading your post and realizing that I could say more to you if I had a bit more information about what you're doing/trying to do. Can you give some specifics? As you no doubt know, even postmodern theory has to stand someplace. What theoretical framework are you being asked to use? Do you have room to maneuver so that you can write your thesis as a critique of the theory as well as of the policies? Can you write your thesis to satisfy those who have power over you, but at the same time write a parallel document which expresses some of your concerns about the problem of "objectified truths ?" I'm using three variations on Marxist state theory to study determinants of health care reform policies in the states. I DON'T treat these theoretical frameworks as objectified realities, but rather consider them as somewhat inadequate but generally accepted tools for looking at the complexity and messiness of the policy formation process. I think TR's occasional references to chaos theory are relevant to studies of this sort, but I'd already submitted my dissertation proposal when he reminded me about this link. I don't expect to be able to accomplish EVERYTHING in my dissertation. The subject, and my interest in it, will continue. Do I think some of the policies being implemented as part of public and private sector health care reform are brutal and destructive, or even just stupid and counterproductive? Sure. Will my dissertation change that? Probably not. Might I occasionally have the opportunity to say something to someone that will change things "for the better?" Who is defining better? I guess the best I hope for is that people outside the discipline of sociology and in positions of some influence over health care policy will read my stuff or hear me talk about it and at least think about what they're doing and why they're doing it. That's enough for now. Both of you, please stay involved in this group! Peace, Donna From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Wed Oct 23 05:45:53 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA28777 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 05:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5576; Wed, 23 Oct 96 07:43:37 EDT Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8155; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:43:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 07:40:50 EDT From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: marginalized work in academe (fwd) To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Message-Id: <961023.074336.EDT.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> There is a continuing discussion on the Progressive Sociologists' Network on part-time teaching...I thought member of Socgrad might like to glance at this post... T.R. ********* From: "FASENFEST.DAVID" To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Subject: marginalized work in academe Follwoing on the recent posts on academia and the job market, and trying to put those comments into some context...there has been a several trends in the academy with interconnected threads: 1) Administrative expenses have risen while the education related expenses have fallen, and the two have reversed positions with the latter lower than the former; 2) Increasingly graduate students contribute from 30% to as high as 75% of the undergraduate contact hours of instruction but rarely cost a department more than about 10% of its budget; 3) Casualized employment (at the top end one-year or multiple-year term contracts with full benefits...at the bottom payment per course taught with no benefits) are on the rise, and the literature now speaks of 'liberating' people who opt out (presumably by taking these so-called non-pressured jobs, see a recent book by Gappa) from the tyranny of the tenure review; 4) State legislators and as a consequence university officials increasingly talk about value added, the student consumer, the implicit hourly wage of academics (counting as work only time in the classroom), and the need to raise the productivity as measured by through put of students and tuition/salary ratios; 5) Increasingly as a result of demographic trends departments are ossifying with lots of tenured faculty who are in the middle years with no likelihood of retirement, but whose scholarship and teaching skills leave much to be desired, and whose tenure leave little room for meaningful discussions about improving education or research; 6) For the past several decades enrollment driving faculty lines has meant that departments recruit students at both grad and undergrad levels with no clear idea what to do with them (that is, councel and follow up on the job market) other than to produce degrees and justify faculty FTEs; 7) As institutions, Univesities are on the front line in marginalizing and assaulting workers at the bottom (whether they are maintenance staff or casual instructors), often under the guise of poverty and higher missions which require lower costs even when those demands are unwarranted by the financial standing of the institutions. And the list goes on. The result is the current initiative at Univ of Minnesota which started out as an inquiry into how to review tenured faculty and has turned into a wholesale assault on tenure. In turn, tenure has not been all that it was meant to be, with a somewhat capricious system dependent more and more on the particular composition of a committee and not on a standard of teaching or scholarship (and who is not from a university where the common wisdom always seems to be win a teaching award and one's tenure chances decline noticeably!). And as a result in almost all fields the newer and more interesting scholars are, for the most part, frozen out of jobs or participate in a revolving job market where the only chair they can aspire to has wheels and rotates. When I last taught intro, about 10 years ago, there was an article I assigned which compared the 'should' goals of a university with the actual goals as practices dictated. There was a clear divergence between the should of maintaining an institution of higher education and research, and the actuality of doing what ever was needed to promote the institution and increase its net worth. Perhaps, in light of the recent posts, a more explicit political economy of academe needs to be undertaken, one which includes its role and function in society as well as its internal operations. Only then can we fully see how the structural transformation of the academy coincides with the increasing intrusion of capitalist markets on the production of culture and knowledge into (and as part and parcel with) the very location which has stood for the production of culture and knowledge in society. The shock, I think, is that until about 20 years ago the University was the preerve of class privilege and prestige--and once that slipped away all else becomes grist for the profit mills. But that means we have to look carefully into the jaws of the beast which feed and protect most of us--however much that protection and nurturance is shrinking. This, I am afraid, will ultimately be too daunting a task for insiders, and too impossible for outsiders. David Fasenfest From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Wed Oct 23 12:57:53 1996 Received: from medicine (medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.32.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA26868 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:57:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gmed-pc12 (gmed-pc12.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.86.162]) by medicine (8.6.10/BSD-3.1) with SMTP id OAA02846; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:07:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199610231907.OAA02846@medicine> X-Sender: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:58:02 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, Sociology Graduate Students -- International From: ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu (Gavin Hougham) Subject: Re: marginalized work in academe (fwd) At 07:40 AM 10/23/96 EDT, T R. Young wrote: > ********* >From: "FASENFEST.DAVID" >To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK >Subject: marginalized work in academe >5) Increasingly as a result of demographic trends departments are >ossifying with lots of tenured faculty who are in the middle years >with no likelihood of retirement, but whose scholarship and teaching >skills leave much to be desired, and whose tenure leave little room >for meaningful discussions about improving education or research;..... You will be shocked to learn that our University (Univ. of Chicago, home of John Dewey, and often referred to as a "teacher of teachers") is on the brink of closing our Department of Education. Closing as in eliminating the whole departmental infrastructure and replacing it with a university "pledge" to support education research in other departments. This is what can be done when a university finds itself in the position described above. I am not in that department, so I have no great inside information, but the Dean has euphemistically framed the decision as resting on productivity issues. So, yes, folks, right here in River City... Gavin H. (NB - The Chronicle of Higher Education is following this story for those interested in further details...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gavin Hougham, Ph.D. (cand.) The University of Chicago Medical Center Section of General Internal Medicine and Department of Sociology 5841 South Maryland Ave. (MC 6098) Chicago, IL 60637 (312) 702-6735 ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- From 34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Sun Oct 27 07:34:15 1996 Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu [141.209.1.16]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA15771 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:34:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9014; Sun, 27 Oct 96 09:32:40 EST Received: from CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (NJE origin 34LPF6T@CMUVM) by CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8784; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 09:32:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 96 08:03:10 EST From: "T R. Young" <34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Organization: Central Michigan University Subject: Fun with Dick and Jane: Where have all the genders gone? To: GRADUATE STUDENTS IN SOCIOLOGY Message-Id: <961027.093240.EST.34LPF6T@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> This the the fourth in a series on pomo crime and deviancy...brought to you with the kind complicity of grad students everywhere. 1. The most general point I will try to make is that notions of crime and deviancy change with the political and economic changes of a society...that moral outrage as well as criminal legislation are informed/deformed by efforts to conserve ways of life, ways of being, ways to working that no longer fit well into the sociology of it all. 2. In the first part of this series, I tried to make the point that gambling used to be a pathway to the holy...and was restricted to dramas of the holy...that the non-social/outsider practice of gaming and gambling was a profanation unto the gods. In the second part, I suggested that drug use was, for most of human history, a pathway to knowledge...as Durkheim so well put it in his 'Elementary Forms of Religion.' With the advent of modern science, the use of drugs to generate ecstatic--out of body-- states of mind became defined as deviancy/corruption/delinquency. Rather than connect with the gods/infinite/ineffable; rather than escape from the distortions of bodily perception, the new method of knowledge required that one improve sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell...and reason. Escape from the body no longer served the knowledge process except for those who continue to believe that the quest for sure and certain knowledge resides in the Mind of their God. Last time, I made the point that, for most of human history, at least part of the sexual capacities of men and women were/are confined to specific social forms...more so for women than for men. In that mini-lecture, I tried to explain the social uses of rape as well as the norms of virginity, fidelity, chastity, and celibacy...all to the point that sexual norms have a deep connection to the political economy at hand. 2. In this mini-lecture, I will suggest that both sexuality and gender/gendering become irrelevant/obstacle to the dynamics of a free market in labor, commodities, money and information. a. Gendering. There four general explanations we use to explain gender/gendering: 1. Physiology...we look at the differences in body structure and functioning of men and women and conclude that two and only two genders are 'normal, natural, given-by-god.' The fact of the matter is that, in nature, there are no genders/one gender/two genders/three, four and more genders. The number of genders vary with species and the climatic/survival conditions of a given species. If one looks only at the human species and if one ranges men and women into two cartesian maps of their physio- sexual capacities, one would find a great overlap in such distributions: a lot of women produce more testosterone than a lot of men and most women produce more testosterone [compared to estrogen] as they grow older. And if one wants to measure secondary sexual characteristics; penis/clit size, breast size, strength, hair lenght, height and such the same great overlap is seen. The point of all this is that physiology is greatly over- rated as a test of gender...that it takes poetic imagination to place some people into and only into binary distributions. That definitions of corrupation, evil, sin, and deviancy are political tools with which to force the binary gendering process. b. Psychology...men are supposed to be smarter, more aggressive, more rational, more competent, more brutal/less gentle and less emotional than are women...again, measurements show great overlap...if anything, women are a bit brighter on average than men but averages count only in the make-believe world of statistics and analysis. c. Culturology...every society has a gendered division of labor; ergo, gender is a natural social division... Ah, yes, but what we don't tell our students is that gendered divisions of labor vary dramatically across the 3-4000 cultures found on the face of earth over the past 40k years. And, I am sad to say, even reproduction and child rearing can be done without women...tribes in New Guinea kidnap children from other tribes, and the men rear the boys after their own image. I shall not mentin in vitro fertilization since growth of the embyro still requires a uterus... d. Sociology...we sociologists like to say that there are but two genders...but, looking at our own society, we can count at least five... 1) males 2) females 3) children [who are defined/ treated as ungendered and who learn which gender to embody] 4) celibates...nuns, priests, widows, soldiers, students...in a word, anyone caught up in a total instit- ution...and 5) psycho/socio-paths...whose manifold sexual orientations do not fit our neat and nice categories. 3. Degendering America. I would now like to make the case that the great debate over gender and family values come not from 'perversions' of specific men and women but that, rather, one can use one's sociological imagination and better under- stand these debates...in brief: a. Gender is an obstacle to free market dynamics. If one is hiring people to produce or sell things, the rule that there is only one hireable/promotable gender...the male...is hostile to both costs and profits. If women work for less and work with less hassle, then such gendering of work is a social problem for the boss...the solution is; dump the men, hire the women. The same is true in a high-tech industrial society, if one wants to expand markets and increase profits, then one must violate the norm that some goods and services are a male monopoly: tobacco, clothes, cars, guns, sports, religion, violence, music [yes, some societies forbid women to touch musical instruments], alcohol and gambling. All these have been used at one time or another to solve the problem of of solidarity in given social relations...men have used sex, pornography, alcohol, dance, violence, and gambling as social glue...women, children, out-siders have been forbidden such use... b. Family values: it is a great irony of history that the Republican Party is home to both the capitalist class which engineers the destruction of the family and the Religious Right which condemns the destruction of the family...while Democrats cheerfully ignore both the problem and every day solutions. 1. Abortion...in a high tech society, children are net energy sinks...as the more technical anthropologists put it...while in low-tech societies, children are much desired since they are net energy collectors by the time they are seven/ten...big families are a blessing from god; abortion is an abomination in the sight of our gods. 2. Illegitimacy: Then too, increase in productivity means decrease in the labor force...capitalism is a wonderful system of prod- duction but, in order to expand markets, other sources of income must be found...ere young men and women won't/ can't get married to give the little bugger a family. 3. Consumerism is essential to a market economy but is fatal to family values...getting married means sharing income. Having children means sharing income...sharing income defeats consumerism for the individual...cars, travel, leisure, housing, clothes, foods...all require/absorb income...family reduces net disposible income...ergo, don't get married...unless one marries another young, urban professional who doesn't want children and will use birth control--including abortion--to avoid them. d. Mobility...both social and geographical mobility, tightly connected to the ups and downs of the economy, tend to dismantle the family...as one leaves one's social class, one leaves behind one's family and friends...one severs the 'incestuous ties' to clan and soil as one sociologist puts it. e. Dis-employment at home sends hordes of young men to far- away places like Dallas and San Diego...and they are expected to put away their sexuality until they return home to marry Jane and live happily ever after...or send for Jane and bring her away from her clan and family. f. Total institutions are a feature of massified societies. Hospitals, asylums, armies, universities, and prisons all do their part to degender people and to fragment families. As more and more males are put in prison, more and more human beings have but one gender available from whom to find intimacy, affection and love in the night...most criminologists focus upon the rape and sadist sex of the prison...but that is not the lived experience of most in- mates in prison, army, navy, asylum or all-male school. g. Feminist is an outgrowth of the new freedoms of women in work, market, school and politics...women try once, twice, thrice or more to find a supportive, competent, strong and wise male...then after failing time and time again, give it up to work, live, worship, play and perchance love other women. The Religious Right are enraged by feminist thought and feminist politics...but more and more women see separatist families and friends as a solution to gender troubles. Conclusion. Much of the animus directed at unwed mothers, at young women who have abortions, at feminists, gays, and lesbians is mis- directed...a bit of sociological imagination relocates the sources of social problems to the larger socio-politico-economic changes which have hit industrial societies these past 50 years....with more to come...but the solution to such problems is not the traditional exten- ded family nor yet the binary gendering of rural societies with property oriented sexual norms... Most of the solutions are evolving today in the form of alternate family forms, alternate religious forms, alternate gendering practices. Our task, as progressive, emancipatory sociologists is, I believe, to help make that passage with as little violence and hate; with as much human compassion as do we possess...and in that venture, I wish you all good luck and wise counsel. ******* Next week, I go to Hartford for the AHS conference...back the following week to continue these exciting stories of our times and troubles. TR From kenu@cc1.uca.edu Mon Oct 28 15:56:29 1996 Received: from aix1.uca.edu (aix1.uca.EDU [161.31.1.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA27167 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:56:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from cc1.uca.EDU by aix1.uca.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11053; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:58:11 -0600 Received: from CC1/MERQUEUE by cc1.uca.edu (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 28 Oct 96 16:56:54 +3600 Received: from MERQUEUE by CC1 (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 28 Oct 96 16:56:29 +3600 From: "Ken Upham" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:56:21 CST6CDT Subject: Position openings Reply-To: KenU@cc1.uca.edu Cc: "Sociology Faculty" Priority: normal Message-Id: <1C91386293D@cc1.uca.edu> The following is lifted from an announcement scheduled for the December ASA Employment Bulletin, and a forthcoming ad in the Chronical of Higher Education (listing positions in several departments). ** * * * * * * * * * * * The University of Central Arkansas invites applications for three sociology positions to begin mid-August 1997, contingent upon final budgetary approval: Position 1. Tenure-track assistant professor with emphasis on Research Methodology and computer applications, and ability to teach in the area of social inequality. Position 2. Tenure-track assistant professor with emphasis on Social Theory and Social Organization, and ability to teach courses in the areas of urban sociology and social policy analysis. Position 3. One-year nontenure-track instructor or assistant professor with emphasis on demography and ability to teach courses in the areas of gerontology and the family. We are seeking candidates with Ph.D. in hand by Fall 1997. A successful candidate will offer evidence of strong teaching skills as well as publication potential. Salary is competitive and the fringe benefit package is excellent. Vita, copies of graduate transcripts, and three current letters of reference should be sent to Elaine Fox, Chair, Sociology Search Committee, Department of Geography, Political Science and Sociology, Irby Hall 306, University of Central Arkansas, 201 Donaghey Avenue, Conway, AR 72035. Review of applications will begin no later than January 31, 1997. The University of Central Arkansas is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. ******************************** kenu@cc1.uca.edu W. Kennedy Upham Sociology University of Central Arkansas Conway, AR 72035-5001 ******************************** From cmk41575@marauder.millersv.edu Mon Oct 28 20:24:37 1996 Received: from sundns.millersv.edu (CORSAIR.MILLERSV.EDU [192.206.29.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id UAA08236 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:24:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from marauder.millersv.edu by sundns.millersv.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA02371; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:26:25 +0500 Received: by marauder.millersv.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA19619; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:24:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:24:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Chad M. Kimmel" To: network for soc grad stu Subject: Concerns about Grad School Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello everyone, Please let me introduce myself. My name is Chad Kimmel and I am a senior sociology major at Millersville University in Pennsylvania. I graduate this December and I have already started making serious plans for graduate school in the fall. Within the sociology major here at Millersville, we have a criminal justice option offered which I have been apart of. I have taken the basic courses that cover criminology, deviance, family, religion, theory, soc prob, etc.. My major strengh however is research. I took my first soc stat course last fall and the second half (research methods) this past spring. I loved it. We used SPSS for windows and were taught the basics. But, last year I also branched out into an internship with The Center for Opinion Research on campus. I did some polling for a while then supervised others using the CATI (CASES) system. I was also involved in a research project in which I learned many "advanced" skills such as factor analysis, reliability analysis, ANOVA, linear regression, etc.. They may be advanced for me, but in your case, they are probably what you learned your first day of class. What I'm trying to say is I need help: A lot of it. I have a number of schools in mind and have received all the information I need from them. I recently traveled north to an interview at the University of New Hampshire. I loved the school and was very impressed with the program. I had a chance to talk to a couple of students and they seemed very enthusiastic about their courses, or as happy as one could get sitting in front of a pile of papers needing grades. I enlisted into this network hoping I could get a lot of feedback of what to do, and what not to do. How to apply, when to send app in. If to include writing sample, CV, etc... I will graduate with a 3.0 QPA, and a 3.75 in my major courses. My GRE grades are below average, which is the only bad thing, but my experience and recomendations could start fires. ( I'm not bragging, I've just been very involved with the dept. writing two papers that are in preperation for publication, and presenting at an undergrad conference, and in two weeks, at the PSS conference in Lock Haven. Other schools of interest: *Un of Maryland at College Park *UCONN *UMASS (Boston and Amearst) *U of Pitt *Penn State *Indiana University of Pennsylvania If you have any remarks at all, good or bad, please e-mail me directly or on the network. I would greatly appriciate your help. Thanks Chad M. Kimmel cmk41575@marauder.millersv.edu From jczer@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu Mon Oct 28 20:48:47 1996 Received: from cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (cholera.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.252.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id UAA08748 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:48:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (jczer@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu [128.135.232.3]) by cholera.spc.uchicago.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id VAA11227 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:48:49 -0600 Received: by cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (1.38.193.4/UofC3.0) id AA18111; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:48:49 -0600 From: Jean Czerlinski Message-Id: <9610290348.AA18111@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: Concerns about Grad School To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 28 Oct 96 21:48:49 CST In-Reply-To: ; from "Chad M. Kimmel" at Oct 28, 96 10:24 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] To Chad, others applying, or those already suffering through grad school: There's a great book called *Getting What You Came For* that addresses all questions from whether you should go to how to put together a dissertation committee to getting a job. It's a real user-friendly book, too. I'll look up the author's name and pull out a few of the most helpful facts when I get a chance. Best of luck, Jean Jean Czerlinski From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Oct 28 21:30:30 1996 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id VAA09653 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:30:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IB702O20HS9TD501@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #13870) id <01IB702DW4LI9TCTOW@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu id <1709-6>; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:27:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:27:03 -0500 From: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: Concerns about Grad School To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <96Oct28.232705edt.1709-6@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This is the best book ever on applying to grad school: Walters, Charles. How to apply to graduate school without really lying / Charles Walters. Chicago : Nelson-Hall, c1980. Walters (a pseudonym) gets into the reality of the situation, addressing things as they really are instead of as everyone pretends they should be. In other words, he tells you things that most people only learn through experience because no one really wants to talk about it. For example, in large part your future career success will depend on the prestige of your grad school. Walter's observation was born out in a recent (1995) sociology journal article (I forget the exact cite) that showed that prestige of one's first job in academia (sociology) was best predicted by prestige of grad degree, followed by prestige of undergrad degree, followed distantly by number of publications. This all suggests that you should go to the highest- ranking school you can get into, and specialize in whatever they do there that is most likely to be in demand when you graduate. I would guess that a lot of people will not like this bit of advice, but it is realistic. Second, he says that recommendation letters are worth more if they are from someone the reader knows personally or has heard of. This suggests that you should get the most famous professors in your dept to write your letters. Also try to get them to follow-up with personal contacts. There is a great deal more excellent advice in this book, regarding things such as timing, number of schools, follow-up contacts, personal contacts with target professors, financial aid negotiations, image management, etc. I can't recommend it highly enough. yrs, t From c646827@showme.missouri.edu Tue Oct 29 13:01:51 1996 Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA29372 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:01:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from silver.missouri.edu (silver.missouri.edu [128.206.2.202]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA50352 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:02:20 -0600 Received: from localhost (c646827@localhost) by silver.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA64906 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:02:20 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: silver.missouri.edu: c646827 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:02:19 -0600 (CST) From: Brent Myer X-Sender: c646827@silver.missouri.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Concerns about Grad School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello! the schools that you have listed all look to be very good. SOme of them require a basic GRE score (the idiots!!!- even though GRE's do not predict graduate performance), i would find out what the deal is with that. Also, have you looked at U-of Colorado Boulder. If i recall they had a strong quantitative school. your experience is GREAT!!! tht will help a lot, as will the letters! good luck!!! Brent! _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ / Brent Myer / / University of Missouri-Columbia / / c646827@showme.missouri.edu / ==================================== From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Oct 29 13:22:23 1996 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA00318 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:22:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6295; Tue, 29 Oct 96 15:22:38 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 7585; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:22:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 15:18:07 EST From: "Alan Davidson (860) 427-6700" Subject: Grad schools To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <961029.152237.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> The reason why GRE scores do not adequately predict grad. school performance is twofold. First, real world issues like having to eat predict progress in the program and likelihood of finishing. Second, there is a far more restricted range for graduate gpa than for undergraduate gpa, which means that one has less variability and lower parameter estimates for predicting graduate gpa. From elarsen@erols.com Tue Oct 29 18:06:50 1996 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [205.252.116.102]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id SAA12496 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:06:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from elarsen.erols.com (241glmod1.carlow.edu [206.181.153.11]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA11511 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:07:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:07:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199610300107.UAA11511@smtp2.erols.com> X-Sender: elarsen@pop.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: "Elizabeth A. Larsen" Subject: Re: Concerns about Grad School I think that Indiana University of PA has a separate school specially devoted to criminology. I know nothing else about it, but that school might be worth some thought. Libby At 10:24 PM 10/28/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello everyone, > > Please let me introduce myself. My name is Chad Kimmel and I am >a senior sociology major at Millersville University in Pennsylvania. I >graduate this December and I have already started making serious plans >for graduate school in the fall. Within the sociology major here at >Millersville, we have a criminal justice option offered which I have been >apart of. I have taken the basic courses that cover criminology, >deviance, family, religion, theory, soc prob, etc.. My major strengh >however is research. > I took my first soc stat course last fall and the second half >(research methods) this past spring. I loved it. We used SPSS for >windows and were taught the basics. But, last year I also branched out >into an internship with The Center for Opinion Research on campus. I did >some polling for a while then supervised others using the CATI (CASES) >system. I was also involved in a research project in which I learned >many "advanced" skills such as factor analysis, reliability analysis, >ANOVA, linear regression, etc.. They may be advanced for me, but in your >case, they are probably what you learned your first day of class. > > What I'm trying to say is I need help: A lot of it. I have a >number of schools in mind and have received all the information I need >from them. I recently traveled north to an interview at the >University of New Hampshire. I loved the school and was very impressed >with the program. I had a chance to talk to a couple of students and >they seemed very enthusiastic about their courses, or as happy as one >could get sitting in front of a pile of papers needing grades. > > I enlisted into this network hoping I could get a lot of feedback >of what to do, and what not to do. How to apply, when to send app in. >If to include writing sample, CV, etc... I will graduate with a 3.0 QPA, >and a 3.75 in my major courses. My GRE grades are below average, which >is the only bad thing, but my experience and recomendations could start >fires. ( I'm not bragging, I've just been very involved with the dept. >writing two papers that are in preperation for publication, and >presenting at >an undergrad conference, and in two weeks, at the PSS conference in Lock >Haven. > >Other schools of interest: > > *Un of Maryland at College Park > *UCONN > *UMASS (Boston and Amearst) > *U of Pitt > *Penn State > *Indiana University of Pennsylvania > >If you have any remarks at all, good or bad, please e-mail me directly or >on the network. I would greatly appriciate your help. > >Thanks > >Chad M. Kimmel >cmk41575@marauder.millersv.edu > >