From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Dec 1 01:54:01 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id BAA09365 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 01:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQN982YE9EAPTWDN@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:52:11 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id DAA20360 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 01 Dec 1997 03:54:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 03:54:17 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: irony of job market discussion To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712010854.DAA20360@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Disclaimer: I do think the job situation for PhDs sucks, and I think >most faculty are acting immorally to 1) encourage people to study >for PhDs without telling them the reality of the job situation, 2) taking >on so many new PhD students, This criticism assumes that the only reason for doing a phd is to find an academic job. Personal interest or non-academic jobs are also reasonable goals. Why should faculty discourage others from doing what they themselves have already done? Why should faculty waste their time explaining the job market to applicants? Anyone can easily get that story on their own. Professors aren't paid to be career counselors for prospective applicants. >3) not working *with* grad students >on issues of TA/RA rights, university hiring, etc. These are issues of a political or procedural nature. I don't see anything immoral about lacking interest in them, or about taking a position contrary to other folks' positions. I think it's dangerous to confuse politics with morality. From TR.Young@uvm.edu Mon Dec 1 05:37:14 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id FAA14553; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:37:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:37:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from T. (12.2.84.87) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.ED9F2510@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 7:37:08 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971201073632.39272b9c@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: International Urban Conference in Cuba: Travel Package for US Citizens at $969! Cc: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, David Langer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by csf.Colorado.EDU id FAA14554 fyi, TR **** >December 1, 1997 > >To: Persons Interested in Inner City Revitalization, Housing and >Sustainable Living > >From: John I. Gilderbloom Ph.D. >1918 Trevilian Way >Louisville, Kentucky 40205 >e-mail: jgilde02@sprynet.com >phone: phone: 502-479-3666 >fax number: 502-459-4908 > >Re: Internationale Conference on Shelter and Revitalization of Inner >Cities:Cuba >March 29-April 5 in Havana, Cuba > >Scholars, community activists, preservationists, housing officials have >a once in a lifetime >opportunity to travel to Cuba to attend the "Internationale Conference: >Shelter and Revitalizaiton of Old and >Historic Urban Centres." As most Americans are aware, this conference >provides a rare and unique opportunity >for Americans with an interest in inner city issues like housing, >preservation, sustainable living and architecture to travel legally to >Cuba. Moreover, this conference allows Americans to listen and exchange >ideas with an internationale community of like minded persons. For some, >this might be this might be the most important international urban >planning and design conference in the past ten years. Already slated to >speak is Peter Marcuse of Columbia, Janice Perlman, City University of >New York and William Goldsmith of Cornell along >with other well known American housing scholars and activists. The >official conference language is "english", >those with limited knowledge of Spanish will find it not too difficult >to get around the city.. We have also hired translators to help out. For >those who would like to make a presentation, if you give us enough >advance notice we can probably assist you in giving a "breakfast >roundtable" or a "poster session." at the very minimum. For those who >have a long and distinguished record of urban leadership or scholarship, >certain Americans will get a chance to address the conference during >prime time. Historic walking and bike tours of Havana are part of the >conference agenda. Our tour package also includes an overnight excursion >to the historic city of Trinidad which is also home of one of Cuba's >most beautiful beaches. > >The entire tour package which is very affordable relative to other >Caribbean destinations and is nearly $500 less than typical Cuban >educational packages (One recent educational Cuban tour was listed at >$2,100 for two >weeks!).. We have organized a tour package that will cost approximately >$969. If you want to have your own >room you should add another $115. The conference package covers seven >nights and eight days. Americans >will be staying at the newly renovated Hotel Deauville which is a three >star hotel with cable TV (CNN, ESPN, >etc.), swimming pool, restaurant serving breakfast, lunch and dinner, >bar, disco, safe lock and ability to cash travelers checks (no American >Express allowed!). Hotel Deauville is one of the few Hotels actually >located in the historic "Old Havana" and is walking distance from the >conference site. Hotel Deauville sits across the street from the ocean >and you can literally walk across the street and get splashed by >incoming waves. The world famous Malecon is a popular ocean sidewalk >that runs roughly 9 miles along Havana's ocean front and provides a >great place to walk, jog, ride bikes, skate and just people watch. The >travel package also includes one night stay two hours outside of Havana >in Trindidad at the Hotel Las Cuevos. All transfers from airport to >hotel and back are covered along with roundtrip bus fare to Trinidad. >The package also includes roundtrip airfare from either the Nashau, >Bahamas or Cancun, Mexico. Tour package also covers daily breakfasts, >translators, Visas, walking tours and meetings with high ranking Cuban >officials in housing, planning and architecture. > >This tour package does not cover the following items. First, U.S. >citizens will need to get to either Cancun or Nashau to meet their >respective connecting flights. If you get your rountrip ticket well in >advance the cost from the states can be as low as $250 on Delta or USAIR >Ways. This also might be a good time to use your frequent flyer miles on >a free roundtrip ticket! Second, not included is the registration fee >which covers a welcome cocktail party, bike and walking tours, >conference proclamation and entrance to the conference proceedings and >program. Third, this package lunch and dinner (Hotels provide >satisfactory breakfast with lots of fruit and strong coffee, but the >lunches and dinners are not very good) so visitors can enjoy the many >fine lunch and dinner restaurants throughout Havana. and Trinidad.. >Conference participants should also factor in $10 a day for incidentals >such as bottled water, tipping, bike or car taxis, discos and other >things.. While non licensed American travelers face possible fines of up >to $50,000 for traveling in Cuba and confiscation of any goods; licensed >conference participants will be allowed to legally bring back up to $100 >worth of rum and cigars and unlimited amount of books, film, videos, >papers and artwork. > >We will also take the "hassle" out of traveling to Cuba by getting you >the needed legal license to travel and work through a federally approved >travel agency that has an excellent track record for service.. Our >travel agency, Marazul Tours Inc. is one of a handful of companies that >is authorized by the US Treasury to make business transactions with >Cuba. Bob Guild of Marazul Tours Inc. (1-800-223-5334 or 201-319-9670) >is the person to call to book travel arrangements. They are the same >agency working on travel arrangements for Americans to visit the Pope in >Cuba this January. We strongly advise folks interested in participating >in this conference to go to our web site which will continually provide >updates every Monday morning: > >http://www/louisville.edu/org/sun > >Go to the icon that lists conferences and tours. Louisville's oldest and >most respected non­profit housing >organization, Neighborhood Development Corporation (NDC), has agreed to >be the sponsoring organization >for this trip. NDC has worked with my organization Center for >Sustainable Urban Neighborhoods on a number >of partnerships. I have agreed to coordinate the program for >Neighborhood Development Corporation and >Marazul Tours Inc. > >I want to go to Cuba and attend this important conference, what do I >need to do? > >If you think you might be interested in attending this conference, you >need to start getting your papers in order and contact us as soon as >possible. We need to hear from you ideally in December but not later >than the end of January.. The most important piece of paper is your US >Treassury License. If you can demonstrate an interest in housing, >historic preservation, sustainable development or inner city >revitalization you will probably qualify for the US Treassury License. >To get this license please put on letterhead (University, legal aid >office, tenant organization, historic preservatiion, neighborhood >association) the following information: > >1. A statement describing your established interest in revitalization of >inner cities, housing and preservation; how your work would be assisted >by attending this international conference. This should be a one or two >paragraphs. > >2. A copy of your one page resume ( the long one is not necessary). > >3. The name address and telephone number of each traveler. If possible >we also need the email address of each >person; > >This letter should be short and succinct, free of any rhetoric and >politics.. The application does not cost you any money. We will be >sending a consolidated package (attendees wanting permission to travel) >on a weekly basis to the US Treasury Department. Ideally, this should be >done as soon as possible if you want to get the >necessary permission, book low cost airline tickets and have room on a >tour that will sell out quickly (limit of 100 Americans). . Until you >get your license, the US approved travel agency will not book you on our >package tour. Nor can you expect any kind of approval for funds your >department chair or other sources of funding. We can also provide you >with a letter from the official European organizations sponsoring this >international conference which might be of use in applying for travel >funds. > >If funding for the trip depends on making a presentation at the >conference, we can probably arrange for most >Americans to present. The conference is providing opportunities for a >"poster sessions" and "breakfast >roundtables." A select number of Americans will also be invited to give >a plenary or panel address. Please attach a separate one page memo on >letterhead of your proposed presentation. Obviously, it needs to >compliment the conference theme of inner city revitalization, >preservation, sutainability, economic development and housing. If the >topic you propose is of interest I will fax you a letter within 48 hours >to invite you to give a presentation. Once you have organized the above >documents, please forward them to me by the following means: > >e­mail: jgilde02@sprynet.com >fax: 502­459-4908 or 473-0994. >or postal address: John Gilderbloom, NDS, 1918 Trevilian Way, >Louisville, Kentucky 40205 > >If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to e­mail me >jgilde02@sprynet.com or if you want to hear a >human voice call me at my home office 502­479­3666. > >We hope you can join us on this package tour. I have been to Cuba twice >in the past six months and found it to >be a very moving and profound experience of my life. Cuba raises >important intellectual questions concerning >modern communism, sustainable development, housing, preservation and >other issues. > >Please forward this note to anyone who might find this of interest. > >Sincerely, > >John I. Gilderbloom, Ph.D. >for Neighborhood Development Corporation > >(Gilderbloom is Director of the Center for Sustainable Urban >Neighborhoods at the University of Louisville and >author of numerous books, academic articles and newspaper op-ed pieces. > >http://www.louisville.edu/org/sun/conference/cuba/havana.html > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: NEW: tryoung@power-net.net temp: TR.Young@uvm.edu soon: tr@tryoung.com From TR.Young@uvm.edu Mon Dec 1 05:39:22 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id FAA14671 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:39:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:39:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from T. (12.2.84.87) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.3B0BDAA0@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 7:39:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971201073842.394ff386@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: Stewards Planetary House News Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu fyi, TR ***** > Stewards Planetary House News > >The Stewards Planetary House, a new fledgling movement of poor >and ecologically concerned people, wishes to announce the debut of >its new and much-improved on-line facilities. > >Our new permanent website address is: http://www.stewards.net > >Our new permanent general e-mail address is: staff@stewards.net > >When visiting the website, don't make the mistake of assuming that most of >our information is on the homepage; go to the `contents' page for references >and links to hundreds of pages of detailed information on our movement >and its unique approach. Background > >The Stewards Planetary House is a new just-being-born movement of >working and non-working poor people who seek to become increasingly >able to work together to care for one another together with the planet. >Our approach is highly inquiry-oriented and includes new methods of >social organization, economics, information technology, childcare, >personal development, care of the earth, and much else. > >The SPH combines the seven ways people have traditionally sought >liberation: The human potential movment, progressive social change, >religion or spirituality, ecology, feminism, progressive art, and science. > >The Stewards Planetary House is open to all poor and ecologically concerned >people, wherever they may be on the planet. People are needed to help us to >begin our program of `organizing the poor and ecologically oppressed people >of the world - beginning with ourselves -to work together as Stewards to >care for one another together with the world. > > > Stewards Corporations > >One of many documents accessible from our website's `content' page is a >short book entitled `The Stewards Corporation: A System For Total Human >Development'. This work, many years in preparation, sets out a flexible, >inquiry-based model for building `Stewards Corporation Communities'. These >`corporations of a new type' use the shell of a traditional or non-profit >corporation within which to build a dynamic new kind of community of poor >and ecologically concerned people who care for one another and the planet. >These Corporation Communities use such novel social forms as: `stewards >houses', `stewards services', `stewards guilds', and a `stewards polis or >system of government'. > >Check out this book! > > Forming the First Stewards Corporation > >A `study and exploration group' is now forming here in Vancouver, B.C., >Canada for the purpose of forming the first functioning Stewards Corporation >Community. In addition to `The Stewards Corporation', our study group will >also draw on the practical conceptual tools for becoming organized together >which are contained in `The Stewards Code: A Shared Framework for Building A >Future Together'. This work is also available at the site. > >If you're in the Vancouver area, and would like to explore the possibility >of participation in our `study and exploration group', please send e-mail to >staff@stewards.net > >In case you - like ourselves - dislike the oppressive and life-fragmenting >aspects of traditional business corporations, rest assured that the >`Stewards Corporations' are corporations of a VERY different type! They >include `Stewards Houses', `Stewards Services', `Stewards Guilds', and a >`Stewards Polis' or government. > >Get in touch------------------------------------------------------------------ > >If you are interested in entering into regular dialogue and communication >with us regarding joining our corporation or setting up a Stewards >Corporation in your area, please e-mail us. > >Eric Sommer > > > > > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: NEW: tryoung@power-net.net temp: TR.Young@uvm.edu soon: tr@tryoung.com From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Dec 1 06:39:31 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA17775 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:39:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQNJ8O41GEAPTVSQ@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:38:59 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id IAA24627 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 01 Dec 1997 08:40:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 08:40:43 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: reports on labor market To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712011340.IAA24627@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> The micro-macro link is not so easily made. Predicting a macro-level outcome by aggregating individual actions is risking the fallacy of composition--incorrectly concluding that what is true of the part is also true of the whole. For example, rising demand for cocoa may make the cocoa workers more valuable, and thus raise their wages. Or it might lead to extensive development in the cocoa industry instead, in which case you would simply have more cocoa workers being exploited at the same rate. Or there may be other possibilities. The same error could be made with regards to academic prestige. For example, if many new phds had a greater preference for working at teaching colleges, does that necessarily mean that the prestige of the present Top 10 is going to fall accordingly? I don't think there is a causal effect at all from the preferences of entry-level professors on institutional prestige. From jfczerli@midway.uchicago.edu Mon Dec 1 07:55:00 1997 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA22083 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:54:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (root@midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19917 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:54:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from harper.uchicago.edu (4038@harper.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.7]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA02599 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:53:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (jfczerli@localhost) by harper.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA20854 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:53:12 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: harper.uchicago.edu: jfczerli owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:53:12 -0600 (CST) From: jean frances czerlinski X-Sender: jfczerli@harper.uchicago.edu Reply-To: jean frances czerlinski To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: reports on labor market In-Reply-To: <199712011340.IAA24627@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just to begin replying to some of the comments > The micro-macro link is not so easily made. Predicting a > macro-level outcome by aggregating individual actions > is risking the fallacy of composition--incorrectly > concluding that what is true of the part is also > true of the whole. I completely agree that the link is not always straightforward. Thomas Schelling has lots of great examples of non-obvious aggregation in his book, *Micromotives and Macrobehavior*. However, saying that the link is "not so easily made" does *not* mean that it is not there. > The same error could be made with regards to academic > prestige. For example, if many new phds had a greater > preference for working at teaching colleges, does that > necessarily mean that the prestige of the present Top 10 > is going to fall accordingly? I don't think there is a > causal effect at all from the preferences of entry-level > professors on institutional prestige. This was a misunderstanding of my possibly incorrect suggestion. I meant that if, on the micro-level, each of us gets used to using prestige as a quick-and-dirty rule-of-thumb in making decisions (about where to study, where to apply for jobs, whom to hire, etc), perhaps using prestige only for the first cut but still using it, then the aggregate effect is that when you apply for a job, the prestige of *your* graduate institution will also be considered by the hiring committee. Whether this is fair or not, this will be the aggregate consequence. If you don't think your prestige should be considered, why not start by not considering prestige in your own decisions, e.g. about where to apply for a job? If after studying the things that really matter to you, like resources, interesting colleagues, related program, location, etc, some of the jobs you decide to apply for *happen* to be at prestigious universities, then that's still consistent with ignoring prestige. The effect of different application or hiring strategies on ultimate prestige of a school is unclear to me, and I had not made a prediction about it. That was not the micro-macro link I was making. I also cannot be 100% sure that the micro preferences for prestige will aggregate up to prestige mattering-- perhaps I have not envisioned the model correctly. But this doesn't mean we should simply ignore possible aggregate consequences. Come up with another model and another prediction of aggregate consequences, and I'll listen. But don't just say "because it's difficult, I'll ignore it." Cheers, Jean From jfczerli@midway.uchicago.edu Mon Dec 1 08:31:22 1997 Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA23025 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:31:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (root@midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23230 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:31:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from harper.uchicago.edu (4038@harper.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.7]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA09074 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:25:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (jfczerli@localhost) by harper.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA02838 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:25:00 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: harper.uchicago.edu: jfczerli owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:25:00 -0600 (CST) From: jean frances czerlinski X-Sender: jfczerli@harper.uchicago.edu Reply-To: jean frances czerlinski To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: irony of job market discussion In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971130212604.00695d5c@email.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Replying now to Wayne.... > Well, yes actually, _my_ choices as an n of 1 often don't make a huge > difference on a macro-level. Individual agency as a sociological concept is > overrated. I don't eat chocolate ice cream and the cocoa plantation workers > are still oppressed. I don't drive a car and New Jersey still has bad > traffic and air pollution. If you just do these things quietly and alone, you're right, they probably won't have much impact. But here we are, a group of future sociologists discussing how we think future job application and hiring decisions should be made. If we all discuss it together, we can all change how we make our decisions. And each of us can tell a few other sociologist friends. And maybe someone will even try to organize something, like some sort of strike. Thus, by discussing these micro-level decisions in public, on a list like this, we *can* make macro change. And fortunately, the field of sociology is a lot smaller, and easier to change, then the habits of all New Jersey motorists.... > Not really. One process is being used to judge aggregates, the other is > being used to judge individuals that make up part of an aggregate. One is > more likely to make an error in assuming that because a person is from the > top ranked graduate program they are necessarily better than someone from > the 60th ranked program, than they are in assuming that the top ranked > program is better as a whole than the 60th ranked program. When hiring > committees decide to keep or throw out an application based on the program > the individual is from they are committing an ecological fallacy. This is an interesting point. You're right that when you choose to work at a department for its prestige, that prestige is measuring something like an average over all 30-50 faculty members, and this average will have less variance than judging the quality via prestige of any one faculty member from that department, who is a sample of n=1. But I could bring in lots of other issues to counterbalance them, for example the cost of an error. If you choose where to apply based on prestige and make an error, i.e. get a job you don't really like, you're going to spend at least 2-3 miserable years of your life there, and given the high prestige just might spend your *whole* life there, because it's easier to stay and because everyone tells you what a great job you have, etc.. On the other hand, when a department makes a mistake in hiring a certain faculty member, because the high prestige hadn't been a good indicator of quality, then they're stuck with one (of 30-50) faculty member who's deadwood for 2-3 years, but unlikely to get tenure anyway. (It's tenured deadwood that's a problem, not new hires!) Another issue: departments hope that whoever they hire is high quality, but don't so much mind if someone they don't hire is high quality. That is, they don't really mind missing a great applicant which they pass over because the school they came from is low prestige. So they'd rather just stick with people who have all the indicators for possible high quality. Another issue: hiring committees, unlike individuals, have to justify their decisions. If they hire someone from a low prestige school who turns out to be a dud, everyone will say: "Wasn't it obvious? Look where they came from?" However, if they hire someone from a high prestige school who's a dud, everyone will say: "They did their best in hiring, what more could they do?" Another person on the list also mentioned how some schools want to put in their admission brochure that all their faculty are from Yale, Harvard, Berkeley, etc.. In short, individuals have a lot more freedom to make decisions on criteria other than prestige, and the cost of a mistake (of missing a high quality opportunity *or* of taking a lame job) is higher to them. So individuals are probably the best people to start pushing for change in academic decision-making! > At the same time, > though, I would be amazed if people are as lazy about deciding what jobs > they want as you seem to imply. I don't believe there is anyone out there > who is just blindly following pedigree (but, perhaps, you're using this as > an "ideal-type" to make a point). Yes, it was an ideal type. Reality is that people use prestige to make first cuts. > examined. If they don't then the "meritocracy" of the process needs to be > questioned. I thought we all agreed that hiring is NOT a meritocracy. Prestige is one of the many factors that make it not. "Who your advisor knows" is another factor. For that matter, is there anything in our society that is a perfect meritocracy? > I do assume that given my present > structural condition as a graduate student in a relatively non-marketable > specialty, competing in a job market where I will be up against 200+ > applicants per job that it's very important to do everything I can to have > a vita that gets noticed. If that means that I'm going to pitch my work to > what I feel the discipline as a whole regards as the better journals, yes. > Sure this sounds cynical, selfish, and nakedly pragmatic but I think it > would be somewhat irrational to ignore "journal prestige" given the > realties of the academic job market. Well, that's a different story. I was talking about people who unthinkingly follow prestige. At least you are conscious of your predicament. Someone could incite you to join some movement to boycott prestige, if everyone else did it to. > And I do think the study you're suggesting--to look at what predicts job > satisfaction--would be great. If you're hiniting that "prestige of > institution" might have low predictability of job satisfaction (or maybe > its even negatively correlated with it!) I'd be inclined to agree [despite > my own belief that I'd enjoy it]. In any rate, I'm sure if you (or someone > else) did that study, it would make for a great soc-grad discussion topic. Yeah, I know, so I'm on deck to do this. Maybe sometime, but not now. I did, however, once look at GSS data to see what predicted happiness. Being healthy was #1. (More accurately, being unhealthy made people especially unhappy; health tends to go unnoticed.) Being married was #2. Then there were a bunch of things pretty close together, which I called tied for #3. Things like being religious. (What else? I'd have to check again.) However, things like income and job prestige didn't matter. That's some food for thought... Jean From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Dec 1 09:55:30 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA25734 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:55:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQNQ3M314KAPTUVR@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:54:57 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA11158 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:57:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:57:01 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: reports on labor market To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712011657.LAA11158@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> I personally have no objections to using prestige as an indicator. Wayne's point was that it is meaningful to use prestige as a predictor of institutional characteristics, and less predictive for characteristics of individual graduates. For example, as an entry-level job applicant, I would predict that a job at a high-prestige school is on average going to pay better (eventually, over the long run), be less secure with regards to gaining tenure, probably require more effort to gain tenure, and give me better and more opportunities to successfully network within the discipline. I could fairly confidently predict these things about high prestige schools as a group or as individuals, relative to second or third rank schools. So prestige is a useful indicator to me as a job applicant. But what can I predict about an individual graduate from a high-prestige school? I would predict that this person knows how to work the academic system pretty well, is probably fairly well-connected in the discipline for a beginner, and has a statistically better than average shot at having an academic research career. But I can't predict much at all about the quality of this individual's work. I could say that on average, students from this program are better than students from that program, and say that with some confidence, but I can't predict with any confidence the quality of individual graduates. However, knowing something about the average quality of the grads from one school is worth something as a predictor, even though one does risk error from the fallacy of division. Everything else being equal, if I'm on the hiring committee then I'm probably going to use prestige to make the cut. While I risk error on individual plays, over repeated plays the odds should be on my side. It strikes me as a perfectly rational system if you consider it from an evolutionary perspective. Is it fair to the individual applicants to consider the prestige of their degrees? I'd say yes. You have control over where you go to school. If you want that edge in the employment market, you can get it. If you can't work the system at these lower levels, then you probably won't be able to work it at the career levels either. In that limited sense, the prestige system is universalistic and meritocratic. From mpomeran@acs.ryerson.ca Mon Dec 1 12:45:05 1997 Received: from hopper.acs.ryerson.ca (hopper.acs.ryerson.ca [141.117.101.8]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id MAA01812 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:45:01 -0700 (MST) Received: (from mpomeran@localhost) by hopper.acs.ryerson.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id OAA43750; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:43:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:43:55 -0500 (EST) From: Murray Pomerance To: "L:SOCGRAD" Subject: CFP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII BANG BANG, SHOOT SHOOT!--FILM, TELEVISION, GUNS is a conference in Toronto, May 16-17, 1998 with LESLIE FIEDLER, GEORGE GERBNER, and ELLEN SEITER ** This is a reminder that Dec. 8 at 6:00 EST is the deadline for proposals for papers and panels. Email to mpomeran@acs.ryerson.ca with (1) very brief abstract; (2) very brief bio; and (3) title ** We are very eager for proposals. From bjohnson@sobek.Colorado.EDU Wed Dec 3 17:52:05 1997 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA04820 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:52:03 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bjohnson@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id PAA15303; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:30:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:30:51 -0700 (MST) From: Johnson Brett Edward To: teachsoc@sobek.Colorado.EDU, sociology grad students Subject: "Democracy in America" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anyone read Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America"? I just picked it up at a used book store because a lot of sociologists say it's a must read. He coined the term "habits of the heart" that inspired Bellah. I am wondering which parts I should read. If you have any thoughts, respond to me individually. thanks, brett johnson univ. of colorado From chadk@yourinter.net Thu Dec 4 06:36:19 1997 Received: from zeus.yourinter.net (localhost [151.201.78.1]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA25406 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:36:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from hp-customer ([151.201.78.126]) by zeus.yourinter.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-43256U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA247 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:37:55 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971204094248.00673380@yourinter.net> X-Sender: chadk@yourinter.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:42:48 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: chadk@yourinter.net (Chad Kimmel) Subject: Graduate Student Assembly All Graduate Students, I am a Masters student at Indiana University of Pennsylvania and involved within the GSA here. I am very upset with our group and feel they are extremely passive and do not want to create any social change. Many of the board members are Grad Assis. to the University addmin, kind of like a company union. They are afraid to step on toes. How do other GSA's relate to this? What kind of issues have your groups tackled? Please respond, Cheers, Chad... ***************************************************** Chad M. Kimmel Graduate Assistant/Data Manager Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 ckimmel@yourinter.net http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel 412-463-7010 **************************************************** From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Dec 4 08:41:36 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id IAA13124 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:41:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1761; Thu, 04 Dec 97 10:41:29 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1352; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:41:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 10:39:03 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: funding limits To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971204.104101.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Our University is considering proposing cut-off points for the support of graduate students using state money (t.a.'s) -- grant research and special payroll lectureships wouldn't count. Do other Universities have absolute cut-offs. What is being talked about 7 years being the maximum # of years people would be funded, but the bulk of it would be 100% funding. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Thu Dec 4 20:17:28 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id UAA15042 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:17:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQSIOPHD8OAPTYS5@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:16:51 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id WAA28631 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:18:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:18:58 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: "Democracy in America" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712050318.WAA28631@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Democracy In America is a classic read, but if I had to pick one essential book by Tocqueville, it would be The Old Regime and the French Revolution. This was written when Tocqueville was older and even more intellectually accomplished. It is the classic example of how to do macro-historical comparative analysis. Although competing hypotheses come in and out of fashion with regards to his substantive matter, his methodological accomplishment is still state of the art. This is a great work. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Thu Dec 4 20:29:18 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id UAA15743 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:29:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQSJ29FVC6APTXSR@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:27:47 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id WAA02682 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:29:54 -0500 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:29:54 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: funding limits To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712050329.WAA02682@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> All students are fully funded here for the first five years. After that you're on your own, although you have a shot at whatever money is left over. It's a pretty good deal. I don't see why completing a sociology phd should take longer than five years anyway, unless you're doing historical research. Most of the folks who take longer around here didn't really have their acts together when their dissertating time rolled around. The people who are thinking ahead about their projects usually finish in 4 to 5 years. I don't think we have anyone who's been here more than six, maybe seven years. From cbrown@siu.edu Fri Dec 5 06:07:16 1997 Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA27873 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:07:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from port36.aixdialin.siu.edu (port36.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.36]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id HAA08574 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:06:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:06:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712051306.HAA08574@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: cbrown@Saluki-mail.siu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: subscribing Can someone please tell me how to subscribe to the list? I have a friend who would like to do so, but I cannot remember the command or where to send it. Thank you. Qapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a ?? Southern Illinois University ?? three-edged sword" ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? Kosh Naranek ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Dec 5 07:25:56 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.colorado.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA02619 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:25:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0777; Fri, 05 Dec 97 09:25:55 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 2838; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:25:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 09:22:43 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: funding limits To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971205.092530.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For the record, I am not talking about departmental funding -- we are talking about University funding limits. Part of the problem is the University mandated 18 "research" credits beyond coursework for the Ph.D. (with a recommendation to departments to cut coursework down) -- which means covering folks at least to the completion of these credits. Beyond that point, tuition may still be charged if you are receiving need-based aid, deferring payback of loans, or if you are an international student. From tr@tryoung.com Sun Dec 7 06:24:37 1997 Received: from ntserver3.sensible-net.com ([208.18.224.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA03053; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:24:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.103]) by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA129; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:27:31 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971207082401.2df70b98@sensible-net.com> X-Sender: tr@sensible-net.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Center for Nonlinear Research Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:27:31 -0500 Patti Hamilton, at Texas Woman's University, has created the Center for Nonlinear Social Science in the Nursing School at TWU. The address is: http://www.twu.edu/nursing/CNS/ Hamilton and her associates have broken new ground in applying the new sciences of Chaos and Complexity tosociological data sets. It is the particular virtue of her work that she has sucessfully applied non-linear methods of data analysis to sociological data...instead of trying to find tight correlations between variables, nonlinear research tools seek to find hidden attractors in data which are not amenable to linear mathematical analysis. Hamilton and her students reported on nonlinearity in sociology of medicine topics at the Research Committee Meetings of International Sociology Association Meetings at U/Essex in Summer, 1996. Hamilton and Angela Vicenza have founded a journal, Chaos and Complexity in Nursing which serves a valuable resource to those in sociology of medicine in particular and for those interested in methods for the analysis of nonlinearity in social process generally. To subscribe, write to Dr. Vicenza at SouthConnStUniversity. Finally, Hamilton and Vicenza are organizing a conference for those of you in the Chicago Area: NONLINEAR DYNAMICS IN NURSING Conference - Call for Abstracts - May 30-31, 1998, Chicago IL Submission deadline for abstracts is: February 15, 1998. Contact: F_2hamilton@twu.edu TR Young, Editor Transforming Sociology Series of the Red Feather Institute Note: several conceptual articles on Chaos and Complexity as they apply to class, social change, crime and symbolic interaction may be found in the Red Feather Home Page: http://www.tryoung.com/Chaos/index.htm TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Sun Dec 7 08:53:19 1997 Received: from post3.inre.asu.edu (post3.inre.asu.edu [129.219.10.148]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA09279 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:53:17 -0700 (MST) From: Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Received: from general2.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24133) with ESMTP id <01IQVXHHG9HU8YB1ZX@asu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:53:18 MST Received: from general2.asu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by general2.asu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15746; Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:53:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:53:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media X-Sender: soc318@general2.asu.edu To: TEACHSOCLIST , SOCGRADLIST Cc: rdursoc@IMAP3.ASU.EDU Message-id: Content-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-33463914-881509994=:15420" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---559023410-33463914-881509994=:15420 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: <0_881508234@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> I'm sending this to the two listserv's I subscribe to b/c I wanted to share this blatant form of cynicism and disgust, couched in the form of a "joke." Perhaps by viewing this we can see how 'undesirable' ideologies are transmitted now through this new form of media: the Internet. Most persons in the US (40%) who own a computer and have Internet access are middle-Americans who can now transmit these ideologies to their counterparts via this medium, with what ultimate consequences? I found this concept interesting. Whether it generates dialogue or not, it's food for thought. ---559023410-33463914-881509994=:15420 Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-ID: <0_881508234@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Return-Path: Received: from relay24.mail.aol.com (relay24.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.70]) by air04.mail.aol.com (v36.0) with SMTP; Sun, 07 Dec 1997 03:11:59 -0500 Received: from mylist.net (mylist.net [192.41.44.47]) by relay24.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id DAA15921; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (mylist@localhost) by mylist.net (8.8.5) id AAA13389; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:56:08 -0700 (MST) Received: by mylist.net (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:39:20 -0700 Received: (mylist@localhost) by mylist.net (8.8.5) id AAA10072; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:39:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [209.1.224.23]) by mylist.net (8.8.5) id AAA10066; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:39:18 -0700 (MST) X-Authentication-Warning: mylist.net: Host mail3.geocities.com [209.1.224.23] claimed to be geocities.com Received: from ari (167-162-246.ipt.aol.com [152.167.162.246]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA12357 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:38:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971207023759.007bd870@geocities.com> X-Sender: sabreman@geocities.com (Unverified) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 02:37:59 -0500 To: aris-humor@MyList.net From: "Ari's Humor List" Subject: Insect Politics Sender: owner-aris-humor@MyList.net Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. Modern American Version: Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be that, in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Then a representative of the NAAGB (The national association of green bugs) shows up on Nightline and charges the ant with "green bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 million years of greenism. Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when he sings, "It's not easy being green." Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS Evening News to tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the Reagan summers, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures of the 80's." Richard Gephardt exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share. Finally, the EECO drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that hear cases on Thursday's between 1:30 and 3pm when there are no talk shows scheduled. The ant loses the case. The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he's in, which just happens to be the ant's old home, crumbles around him since he doesn't know how to maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the TV, which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the ant's food, they're showing Bill Clinton standing before a wildly applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of "fairness" has dawned in America. _______________________________________________________________ ARI'S HUMOR LIST by Ari Lifschitz For a free subscription: Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net Body of Message: subscribe To unsubscribe: Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net Body of Message: unsubscribe To contribute a joke: Send your jokes to: owner-aris-humor@MyList.net Do not send copyrighted material Keep on Laughing... ---559023410-33463914-881509994=:15420-- From lucas@utdallas.edu Sun Dec 7 11:45:31 1997 Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA18812 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 11:45:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from inca.utdallas.edu (lucas@inca.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.10]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12493 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:45:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (lucas@localhost) by inca.utdallas.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29104 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:45:35 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: inca.utdallas.edu: lucas owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:45:34 -0600 (CST) From: Michael D Lucas To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Christa, I don't see it as a joke at all. I have colleagues who would consider this story an accurate description of life in the latter half of the 20th century in the U.S. I consider variation in attitudes, beliefs and values to be a generally good thing. But, I find the reluctance of many to understand and accept that many of the social and economic benefits they enjoy are the result of either ascription or outright luck to be alarming - and I include the community of social scientists in this statement. Michael Michael D. Lucas School of Social Sciences University of Texas at Dallas P.O. 830688 Mail Station GR 31 Richardson, Texas 75083-0688 email: lucas@utdallas.edu (972) 994-9745 From d.king@uws.edu.au Sun Dec 7 17:58:16 1997 Received: from ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU [137.154.72.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA00501 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:58:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from D-KING.macarthur.uws.edu.au ([137.154.74.59]) by ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04810 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:57:17 +1000 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:57:17 +1000 Message-Id: <199712080157.LAA04810@ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU> X-Sender: a9300347@ariel.macarthur.uws.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: d.king@uws.edu.au (Denise King) Subject: Re: funding limits I don't know how postgrads are funded in the US but here in Australia PhD's and MHons can apply for Commonwealth scholarships (APAs) which are awarded on a competitive basis and fund postgrads for 3 years fulltime (with a possible extension of 6 months). The funding is in the vicinity of $A16,000 per year tax exempt. there are part-time scholarships available at half the full time rate but these are taxed. Many unis also supply scholarships but these usually have the same rate of funding and conditions as the APAs. Once a student has exhausted their scholarship funding they usually have no other recourse than to seek work or to apply for a research grant which means competing with established academics. Needless to say few postgrads get research grants. So that's our situation. Is it better or worse than what happens overseas I wonder? Perhaps someone could let me know. Denise >Our University is considering proposing cut-off points for the support of >graduate students using state money (t.a.'s) -- grant research and special >payroll lectureships wouldn't count. Do other Universities have absolute >cut-offs. What is being talked about 7 years being the maximum # of years >people would be funded, but the bulk of it would be 100% funding. > > Denise King, PhD student, Sociology President, Macarthur Association of Postgraduate Students Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences University of Western Sydney, Macarthur Po Box 555 Campbelltown NSW 2560 Ph: 046- 203 142 Fax: 046- 285 385 Find me at Campbelltown FASS Building 5! **************************************************************** Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor. Elie Wiesel, 1986, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech *************************************************************** From apitluck@ssc.wisc.edu Sun Dec 7 22:07:11 1997 Received: from duncan.ssc.wisc.edu (duncan.ssc.wisc.edu [144.92.190.57]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id WAA06681 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:07:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from guy.ssc.wisc.edu by duncan.ssc.wisc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/10May96-0433PM) id AA30942; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:07:17 -0600 Received: from localhost by guy.ssc.wisc.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/17May96-0330PM) id AA30852; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:07:17 -0600 Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:07:17 -0600 (CST) From: "Aaron Z. Pitluck" Reply-To: "Aaron Z. Pitluck" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: five years Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thomas Brown wrote: >I don't see why completing a >sociology phd should take longer than five years anyway, unless you're >doing historical research. Most of the folks who take longer around here >didn't really have their acts together when their dissertating time rolled >around. The people who are thinking ahead about their projects usually >finish in 4 to 5 years. I don't think we have anyone who's been here >more than six, maybe seven years. Sure, historical research might stretch it out. Or ethnographic research. Or anything involving research in foreign countries, which often requires government approval and/or affiliation with foreign institutes. Or any research dependent on capricious outside funding sources (e.g. Fulbright). Or... In addition to advocating empathy for the circumstances of students who don't graduate in 4 or 5 years, I'm reminding us all that the sources of funding has a subtle influence on dissertation topics. Limited funding may push students towards quantitative work involving extant local or national data. Creating new data, especially longitudinal or ethnographic, and anything involving foreign countries will be pushed aside. Happy holidays, Aaron Pitluck From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Dec 7 22:33:18 1997 Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA07415 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:33:16 -0700 (MST) From: Nogod1 Message-ID: <4df31b10.348b8692@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:33:03 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: five years Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am not sure I quite understand the discussion. There are people who can complete their degree within five years and do so admirably. There are of course others that rush the process and produce meaningless crap. Is there actually a discussion occurring here, equating the amount of time it takes one to obtain Ph.D to the value of the work or the student? I am sure you can all find something better to discuss. Vincent Bruzzese From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Sun Dec 7 22:35:25 1997 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA07590 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:35:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQWUD8019AAPTWNA@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:34:52 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id AAA17652 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:36:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:36:28 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: five years To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712080536.AAA17652@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Sure, historical research might stretch it out. Or ethnographic research. >Or anything involving research in foreign countries, which often requires >government approval and/or affiliation with foreign institutes. Or any >research dependent on capricious outside funding sources (e.g. Fulbright). These are good points. Still, there is plenty of data you can collect without a grant to support you. It's hardly an excuse for not producing in a timely manner. And a project you can't complete in two or three years is a bad idea for a dissertation IMO. I can sympathize with folks who didn't mean to bite off more than they could chew quickly, or who ran into unexpected roadblocks. But the majority of the people I know who are taking a long time were not well-organized and motivated. Personally, I can't wait to get out of grad school. I am tired of living at this income level. I am frustrated at the constant assaults on the ego from being at the bottom of the academic food chain, with no hope for advancement as long as you lack the degree. There is much that is rewarding about doing a phd, but I wouldn't want to be here a minute longer than necessary. > In addition to advocating empathy for the circumstances of >students who don't graduate in 4 or 5 years, I'm reminding us all that the >sources of funding has a subtle influence on dissertation topics. Limited >funding may push students towards quantitative work involving extant local >or national data. Creating new data, especially longitudinal or >ethnographic, and anything involving foreign countries will be pushed >aside. Good points, and this doesn't apply only to dissertation research but to all sociological research. The lack of a longitudinal perspective in most studies makes it nearly impossible to analyze reciprocal causation. And since most social systems feature complex causal systems, we never really figure them out. This is one reason why sociology has failed to produce a viable predictive theory in 100+ years of existence. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Sun Dec 7 22:42:23 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA07883 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:42:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQWULWVWZAAPTWNA@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:41:23 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id AAA22317 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:43:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:43:29 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: five years To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712080543.AAA22317@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I am not sure I quite understand the discussion. There are people who can >complete their degree within five years and do so admirably. There are of >course others that rush the process and produce meaningless crap. Is there >actually a discussion occurring here, equating the amount of time it takes one >to obtain Ph.D to the value of the work or the student? I am sure you can all >find something better to discuss. Since many schools set a time limit on funding opportunities, the length of time it "should" take to complete a phd is an extremely relevant policy discussion. From kcwalker@syr.edu Mon Dec 8 06:56:30 1997 Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA19638 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:56:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from kcwalker (sudial0604-152.syr.edu [128.230.1.152]) by syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA13424 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:56:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712081356.IAA13424@syr.edu> From: "Kelley Crouse" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:55:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: five years In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) > Thomas Brown wrote: I don't see why completing a >sociology phd should take longer than five years anyway, unless you're >doing historical research. And Aaron Z Pitluck responded: Sure, historical research might stretch it out. Or ethnographic research. Or anything involving research in foreign countries, which often requires government approval and/or affiliation with foreign > institutes. Or any research dependent on capricious outside funding > sources (e.g. Fulbright). Or... Or, or.... There are other factors here that influence whether or not someone has it on the ball. Has anyone here considered that things like family background, race, class, and oh, maybe, gender have something to do with how easily and quickly one gets through graduate school. I take it neither of you are trying to raise children? That neither of you ever encounter any sort of stumbling blocks: ill parents and relatives, family crises, out-of-work relatives who might need your help, etc. Kelley From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Dec 8 07:05:56 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA20048 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:05:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9377; Mon, 08 Dec 97 09:06:02 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0398; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:06:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 09:00:51 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: time limits To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971208.090535.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Actually, unlike some other fields, extended time to degree is not fatal in Sociology -- provided you have presentations, pubs and the like to back it up. Also, in the most recent Council of Graduate Schools study, the most important predictor of time to degree (or whether someone completes at all) is funding during the dissertation process. As for what our graduate school is discussing -- they are not proposing an absolute cutoff -- what they want to do is cut down on the extent of ph.d. coursework required (to around 3 years post BA; 1-1.5 post MA), and then make a moral statement to departments (and Soc. isn't the worst offender around here, English, Anthro., and the languages are) as to time to degree -- after year 7, the probability of someone finishing at all tends to go down statistically. From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Dec 8 07:45:06 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA21127 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:45:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from cbs (dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/mailhub+antispam+tar) with SMTP id IAA20556 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:28:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id IAA07737; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:28:57 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:28:56 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon X-Sender: dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: five years In-Reply-To: <4df31b10.348b8692@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You should remember that some PhD programs in Sociology are designed for persons with just a BA or BS and are designed to take 5years, some PhD programs reqire a Masters just to get the PhD (AT LEAST 5yesrs total). Sincerely, Dave Alan Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 204 Waters Hall Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University http://www.ksu.edu Manhattan, KS 66506 USA ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From apitluck@ssc.wisc.edu Mon Dec 8 10:34:19 1997 Received: from duncan.ssc.wisc.edu (duncan.ssc.wisc.edu [144.92.190.57]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id KAA06033 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:34:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from guy.ssc.wisc.edu by duncan.ssc.wisc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/10May96-0433PM) id AA15122; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:34:25 -0600 Received: from localhost by guy.ssc.wisc.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/17May96-0330PM) id AA25184; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:34:24 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:34:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Aaron Z. Pitluck" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: to continue..... (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nadini Assar asked me to forward the below, her comments are at the end. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:25:01 -0500 (EST) From: Nandini Assar Subject: to continue..... Aaron, I am having trouble posting. I am a lurker and don't ususally post, but this time I want to say this. Please forward my message to the socgrad list. I want to be in this discussion. Thanks. Nandini > >>Thomas Brown wrote: >> >> >> >>>I don't see why completing a >>>sociology phd should take longer than five years anyway, unless you're >>>doing historical research. Most of the folks who take longer around here >>>didn't really have their acts together when their dissertating time >>rolled >>>around. The people who are thinking ahead about their projects usually >>>finish in 4 to 5 years. I don't think we have anyone who's been here >>>more than six, maybe seven years. >> >> > >Aaron Pitluck wrote: >> >>Sure, historical research might stretch it out. Or ethnographic research. >>Or anything involving research in foreign countries, which often requires >>government approval and/or affiliation with foreign institutes. Or any >>research dependent on capricious outside funding sources (e.g. Fulbright). >>Or... >> >> In addition to advocating empathy for the circumstances of >>students who don't graduate in 4 or 5 years, I'm reminding us all that the >>sources of funding has a subtle influence on dissertation topics. Limited >>funding may push students towards quantitative work involving extant local >>or national data. Creating new data, especially longitudinal or >>ethnographic, and anything involving foreign countries will be pushed >>aside. My two cents worth here: Precisely, Tom. You CANNOT SEE why it may need more time for some people, because of your structural location. However, because you, and the other powers-that-be DO NOT SEE that more time is necessary for some people structures the system of higher education for all of us. For instance, when the person who is pursuing the PhD has real world responsibilities. I am a single parent raising two teens. I have a half-time assistantship, and devote myself full-time to my studies and my children. Under these circumstances, I challenge anyone to complete a PhD in 4 or five years, especially doing ethnographic work. So, Tom, if the structure of higher education nudges some groups of people out of the running, we should just chalk it up to life's school of hard knocks, right? My children's father earned his PhD while I raised the children. Now, I am completing my work while raising the children on my own. On paper, we will both have comparable degree, we will both have PhD's. But the conditions under which we earned them are so different that it makes me want to laugh. I have found myself being overwhelmed at times, and standing in the middle of my living room saying: I NEED A WIFE!! Well, I think I have made my point. Cheers, Nandini Assar sociology department nassar@vt.edu sociology department nassar@vt.edu From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Dec 8 11:20:32 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id LAA08685 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:20:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3747; Mon, 08 Dec 97 13:20:33 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0863; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:20:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 13:15:46 EST From: danielle Subject: Re: to continue..... (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <971208.132031.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yeah Nandini!!! Not only is Tom in a position of academic power, he is also a man, and not to diminish those men who *are* sensitive to power differences, most men just don't get what most women have to deal with, particularly in an age of high divorce rates and single parenting. If schools expect us to finish in a given amount of time, then those institutions should start really supporting graduate students. And I don't mean just financially. I mean in terms of mentoring and other time given to help students navigate the roadblocks set up by the institutional order. Most of us (or I can speak just for myself here) decided to go to graduate school because of a desire to learn, a desire to make a difference in the world around us. We did not make this decision based on some masochistic desire to be denigrated about the length of time it takes to complete a degree. We need support and information, not insults and a "school of hard knocks" pep talk. Danielle M. Currier UCONN From mshader@mailer.fsu.edu Mon Dec 8 11:31:59 1997 Received: from mailer.fsu.edu (mailer.fsu.edu [128.186.6.122]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA09204 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:31:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from kwedel.ihhsr.fsu.edu (kwedel.ihhsr.fsu.edu [128.186.13.118]) by mailer.fsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07723 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:32:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712081832.NAA07723@mailer.fsu.edu> X-Sender: mshader@mailer.fsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 13:31:53 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: mshader@mailer.fsu.edu (Michael Shader) Subject: I'm with Danielle Yeah those of us that have chosen to make a career out of graduate school don't need to be harshed by other students about it. We get enough of that from the profs. Besides whats so bad about being a career student... the hours are good, flexible scheduling and constant updates on your performance. And best of all being a student sounds and feels noble while having a PHD with no job just makes you feel like an idiot. mike From Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Mon Dec 8 11:54:33 1997 Received: from post4.inre.asu.edu (post4.inre.asu.edu [129.219.10.149]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA10345 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:54:31 -0700 (MST) From: Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Received: from general2.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24133) with ESMTP id <01IQXI4M08I88YB5BI@asu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:54:37 MST Received: from general2.asu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by general2.asu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA09348 for ; Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:54:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:54:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re:Insect Politics In-reply-to: X-Sender: soc318@general2.asu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Michael, Perhaps I was unclear. In this story, the ant (or some such insect) was clearly uninvolved in the grasshopper's demise every winter; he was simply going about his business of living and preparation for winter. Although not a great example, (biologically, it must be intended that the grasshopper die out in the cold every winter), the point is that someone views the grasshopper's claims as funny and absurd and whether or not the ant was a participant in that is not of concern here. What is of concern is that it was a clear observation that 1) our era is replete with "someone else being at fault" and 2) we, as a generation, are so fed up with needless media attention/absurd claims that we are perhaps now willing to overlook even the most factually-based biases and discriminatory practices existent in our culture/world...a side-effect of anti-discrimination cries comingled with the abuses which have accompanied them. I think if we are to tout anti-discriminatory practices, we must remember that there are those who would unfairly benefit from those tenets and the backlash it creates could be devastating for our 'cause'. I.E., I think I'd agree with you. On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Michael D Lucas wrote: > Christa, > > I don't see it as a joke at all. I have colleagues who would consider > this story an accurate description of life in the latter half of the 20th > century in the U.S. I consider variation in attitudes, beliefs and values > to be a generally good thing. But, I find the reluctance of many to > understand and accept that many of the social and economic benefits they > enjoy are the result of either ascription or outright luck to be alarming > - and I include the community of social scientists in this statement. > > Michael > > Michael D. Lucas > School of Social Sciences > University of Texas at Dallas > P.O. 830688 Mail Station GR 31 > Richardson, Texas 75083-0688 > > email: lucas@utdallas.edu > (972) 994-9745 > > From khampton@chass.utoronto.ca Mon Dec 8 17:13:04 1997 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id RAA02257 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:13:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) for id TAA15385; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:12:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:12:54 -0500 (EST) From: Keith Hampton To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII CALL FOR PAPERS. Research Committee on Future Studies (RC07) of the International Sociological Association. Session Title : Time, Space, and Community. 14th WORLD CONGRESS OF SOCIOLOGY MONTREAL 26 July - 1 August, 1998 Those interested in presenting a scholarly paper should forward an abstract to either of the session coordinators before January 12, 1998. Keith Hampton University of Toronto Centre for Urban & Community Studies 455 Spadina Avenue Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 2G8 Fax: (416) 978-7162 e-mail: khampton@chass.utoronto.ca OR Nancy Nazer University of Toronto Centre for Urban & Community Studies 455 Spadina Avenue Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5S 2G8 Fax: (416) 978-7162 e-mail: nnazer@chass.utoronto.ca From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Dec 8 17:17:21 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA02543 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:17:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQXXK47XWSAPU0R7@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:17:00 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA05430 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:19:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:19:08 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: five years To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712090019.TAA05430@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Or, or.... There are other factors here that influence whether or >not someone has it on the ball. Has anyone here considered that >things like family background, race, class, and oh, maybe, gender >have something to do with how easily and quickly one gets through >graduate school. I take it neither of you are trying to raise >children? That neither of you ever encounter any sort of stumbling >blocks: ill parents and relatives, family crises, out-of-work >relatives who might need your help, etc. Sure, there are all sorts of extraneous reasons why folks might not finish on time. But the question is whether scarce funding resources should be diverted to supporting students whose long residence is unrelated to the requirements of their research. Given enough time and money, anyone of average intelligence and ambition could struggle through a sociology phd. But since there is not all that much money available, and since there any number of deserving uses for that money, it seems reasonable to me to expect folks to finish in a timely fashion. OTOH, if I were free to reorganize academia, I would open it up to anyone who wanted to come, free of tuition charge. Anyone who could keep up could get any degree they wanted wherever they wanted. As long as they could support themselves, they would have as much time as they wished. The main drawback with this plan (and versions of it exist in various european countries) is that students need to be much more entrepreneurial and self-starting since professors cannot possibly hand-hold everyone through the process. So the strong survive and the weak drop out--which is not all that different from what we have here, except that since entry is universal, gender, race, and class privileges play a slightly smaller role. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Dec 8 17:50:11 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA03445 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:50:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQXYPOT5P2APU0RH@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:49:44 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA25673 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:51:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:51:52 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: to continue..... (fwd) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712090051.TAA25673@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Nandini wrote: >Precisely, Tom. You CANNOT SEE why it may need more time for some people, >because of your structural location. However, because you, and the other >powers-that-be DO NOT SEE that more time is necessary for some people >structures the system of higher education for all of us. It's presumptuous to assume that I can't perceive the nature of your challenges. You know nothing of my "structural location". I intended my argument to speak to specifically *academic* reasons for taking a long time to complete a degree. Obviously, any number of extraneous real-world factors could also slow you down. But should these be considered in funding policy? Is it a productive use of resources to spend twice as much to educate Person A, when Person B could get the same job done for half the cost? Why should higher education funding be spent to mitigate problems that should properly be addressed by the welfare state? Why should twice as much be spent on Person A so she can get her doctorate *now*, when she could do it for half as much a few years down the road after her teenagers move out? There is a principled case to be made for supporting Person A, but it seems to me that Person A's advocates need to actually *make* the case for spending more on her, rather than simply pointing out that she faces challenges that Person B doesn't face. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Dec 8 18:03:20 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA03874 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:03:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8531; Mon, 08 Dec 97 20:03:22 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1418; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:03:22 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 20:01:09 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Just replace religious studies with sociology, and ... To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971208.200255.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: UCSB Religious Studies Forum Sender: UCSB Religious Studies Forum From: "kenneth.mackendrick" Subject: Re: Religious Studies / Philosophy To: ANDERE-L@UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU Where does the Study of Religion belong? It is a silly question really. The answer is fairly straight forward. The Study of Religion belongs wherever the person studying it wants to be. Of course this is a strategic nightmare for the dozens of administators who plot the course(s) for an appropriate University education (an appropriate University education... sounds like that oxymoron military intelligence doesn't it? keep reading). There is a great deal of talk about the Study of Religion belonging to either philosophy or the social sciences - as if finding a "true" and "real" home would somehow legitimate all of the hard work that religionists have been doing for the last several hundred years... Let me point out that The Study of Religion doesn't "belong" to anyone (pace Heidegger). Although it is easier to close a department or program if it does - "ah... you don't need to study religion in the Psychology department... it is only a child of the discipline..." Of course a man on the island standing alone Studies in Religion department might not fair so well either eh? But then we have the "pluralistic" study of religion don't we? That little rascally word that makes the Study of Religion so complicated and, dare I say, interdisciplinary, that other fields should pay their respects to the obviously masterful scholars who weave such a marvellous theoretical and methodological web. To be honest I'm a bit sick of pluralistic and interdisciplinary studies. Exactly when was ANY discipline at any time PURE? As if one method, one perspective, one approach has every been the lock stock and barrel of any department, discipline, or area of study. The idea of interdisciplinary work is as old as human thought. The new focus on pluralism is a jargonistic liberal (at best) fascade that is bought and sold to convince "all those stupids out there" that what one is doing is worthwhile and necessary for the development of the human species (and, by the way, profitable). OF COURSE THE STUDY OF RELIGION IS PLURALISTIC!!! There is more than one person study that damn thing isn't there!?! So where does the Study of Religion belong? Should it align itself with the Social Scientific bean counters? Nice work if you can get it. Social Science departments will likely be closed after the Humanities so RS might last a whole decade longer.... however what about theory? Social Science departments are not known especially for their theoretical sophistication (don't mind my intentional use of stereotypes eh?). Would not the rigour of philosophy help RS become a really thoughtful and dedicated field... a place where religionists can spread their theoretical and subversive wings? Hmmm.... Philosophy departments are, well, philosophical - in the same way that French intellectuals are... intellectual (I'll have to thank Stephen for that one). I'll leave it at that. So where does RS belong? The R looks like a B. Perhaps we could join BS departments? (that's Bad Subjects for those who were thinking otherwise). I think we should join IR. Internatioanl Relations. Hey - if we understand why people think and believe the way they do - then we can control them easier can't we (as a 1957 primer in religion once noted - ask me - i've got the page numbers) - and if RS can help control people then we have not only found a great military weapon we've also managed to contribute significantly to foreign policy haven't we? So RS is useful after all. Three cheers for the Study of Religion!!!! Long live the BS RS. in truth, kenneth From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Dec 8 18:38:16 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA05136 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:38:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7537; Mon, 08 Dec 97 20:36:41 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1884; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:36:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 20:27:23 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: time limits (to continue ....) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971208.203614.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Being somewhat closer to the negotiations on this issue than I have time and energy to (being part-owner of a grad. student listserv here doesn't help), the sentiment of the graduate school is exactly what Danielle implies -- departments in this political environment (the wider political environment surrounding higher education) have to do a better job of getting students through more quickly -- and that involves monitoring how long students are taking -- and employment authorizations are one way of doing this. Sure, it is possible to get out in five years past ba -- if one has relatively few exams to take, relatively few courses to take, relatively few courses to teach as the instructor of record, and a Major Advisory system where the Major Advisor and the student are understood to be in control of the process and where department members and Associate Advisors are resource persons/colleagues. The problem is many programs aren't structured in this way. From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Tue Dec 9 08:04:23 1997 Received: from pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.34]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA04787 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:04:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from hud03.som.yale.edu (hud03.som.yale.edu [130.132.152.116]) by pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA28995 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:04:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348D5DB1.115@yale.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:03:13 -0500 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: daniel.ryan@yale.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: five years References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Surely sociologists, of all people, should be subtle enough in their observations to realize that it might take different amounts of time to make different sociologists. It's a discipline to which you can come with more or less grounding in its basics. It does not have a single, easy to formulize orthodoxy. And then there is this thing called a distribution around a central tendency. The folks who take an average and interpret it in normative terms bug me to no end! Sure it is good to get it over with, but grad school is a developmental process, not mere basic training. And do consider the political implications of simultaneous sentiments to quicken time to degree, up the ante on qualifications expected of candidates, and move toward more adjunct faculty. Whose interest does it serve at the system level? And my naive guess is that there is a lot of "generalizing from me" in this conversation. Why do we forget so much of what we know about the world whenever we talk about our own little corner of it? Dan Ryan Yale, for now From a030052t@bc.seflin.org Tue Dec 9 12:25:30 1997 Received: from bc.seflin.org (bc.seflin.org [199.227.192.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA22824 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:25:27 -0700 (MST) Received: (from a030052t@localhost) by bc.seflin.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23910; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:26:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:26:28 -0500 (EST) From: Linda McDonald Sender: Linda McDonald Reply-To: Linda McDonald Subject: Re: SOCGRAD digest 135 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International In-Reply-To: <199712070703.AAA25046@csf.Colorado.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Tom Brown: I do not get to read my mail each day and just yesterday read two of your posts on "Reports on Labor Markets" and "Funding Limits" posted on 12/7/97. Unfortunately, I am not always able to follow discussions on the list which are of interest to me, but after reading your posts, I feel obligated to address a few of your comments. I am a beginning graduate student, a few years older than the "traditional" graduate student, and am raising a 5-year-old son basically on my own. In addition to my responsibilities related to school work, home work and child care, I am employed as a professor's assistant 20 hours a week. I do not come from an economically privileged background, and when my parents immigrated to the U.S., neither was able to continue their education beyond the 8th and 11th grades (mom and dad, respectively). Among other things, they and their siblings were too busy working to help put food on their family's tables to even think about finishing school. Despite these and a few other realities pertinent my life--realities which have influenced to a large extent the opportunities and life choices available to me--I have, nevertheless, reached a point where I recognize that within me lies a great deal of untapped potential. Much of what I have learned and know relates as much to my personal life experience as it does to my academic studies. I consider both equally important for the development of critical thinking skills useful in *life* and in the world of academia. Two semesters ago I chose to enter graduate school for several reasons. My hope is that, if I am able to successfully complete my program, in addition to obtaining work that will provide some level of autonomy as well as an adequate income (we will see...), I will have developed the resources needed to make a positive contribution to my discipline. For me, this translates into making a positive contribution to the larger, increasingly multicultural society in which I (and you) live. To accomplish any of this however, it will probably take me longer to attain the Masters or Ph.D. degree than it may for the traditional graduate student. I believe you mentioned 5 years to complete the Ph.D. Yes, this is possible if one has nothing more than their studies to concentrate on and does not need to concern her or himself with any of the very real obstacles I have mentioned at the start of this message--or other circumstances of life equally difficult but, which must be contended with nevertheless. Even during my limited time in graduate school, I have become uncomfortably well aware that elitist conceptions regarding the "perfectly rational system" of higher education are well entrenched within academia and held to firmly by many like yourself, Professor Brown. What you and others who think this way fail to take into account is that currently there are MANY students like myself who make the decision to attend graduate school at great expense and effort (on many levels) because we believe that we have skills and knowledge worth developing and sharing with others. In this sense, your comment that, "Most of the folks who take longer around her [at J.H.U., I take it] really didn't have their acts together..." is not only insensitive and out of touch with the very large percentage of graduate students out there literally working their tails off despite the odds, it is WRONG. You also make the claim that, "You [we graduate students] have control over where you go to school." Wrong again. There are many students like myself who in order to achieve a sane (we try) balance in our lives which, I will repeat again, often include school, paid work, and home responsibilities, are have chosen our graduate programs based in large part on factors you obviously have failed to take into account. I am referring primarily to feasibility in terms of cost and location of the schools we attend. You claim that, "If you can't work the system at the lower levels then you probably won't be able to at the career level either" is interesting. Perhaps you can provide some useful advice on this count to those of us who have been surviving on the lower levels of the American social class hierarchy for some time now. Or, is it that, according to the "evolutionary perspective" you apparently adopt, except in the case of higher education, knowledge on how to *work the system* is something that people like myself should already be familiar enough with?? Thank you. Linda Perez McDonald a030052t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Dec 9 12:35:05 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA23536 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:35:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3453; Tue, 09 Dec 97 14:34:40 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9041; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:34:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 14:30:45 EST From: danielle Subject: Re: SOCGRAD digest 135 To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <971209.143438.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hear hear Linda!! Tom's latest comment was actually his most offensive to me -- that people should "wait" to go until their situations clear up a little. Well, when would that be, pray tell. most people do not have that kind of flexibility (or resources to wait that long). If those people who have obligations such as children or elderly parents waited until the children were grown or the parents were dead, then a large portion of our grad student population would be elsewhere, rather than improving their minds (and the institution of acadmia in my opinion). Who the hell are you to tell single parents to wait to go back to school? Seeing as most of those are *still* women, that would mean that your advice translates to telling women to clear up their lives before they clutter the precious institution of academia with their personal problems. Wake up please. Your elitism is rearing its ugly head again...... Danielle From jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu Tue Dec 9 14:37:52 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA04224 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:37:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199712092137.OAA04224@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from s02p06.ppp.uconn.edu by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 09 Dec 97 16:37:48 EST From: "Jack B. Monpas-Huber" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:40:41 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Time limits Reply-to: jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) You know, I've never been very persuaded by individual responsibility / "if only you would work harder" / blame-the-victim arguments like Tom Brown's. While there are certainly those unmotivated students who after so long may deserve to be cut off, I suspect from Nandini's, Danielle's, and now Linda's comments, a more common student might be the highly motivated but structurally challenged (family, marriage, kids, jobs, etc.) student. Like Linda, I too reject the instrumentally rational model that Tom uses on the grounds that it is inherently elite-serving, unrealistic, and makes life in grad school harder than it already is. Tom, I really wish you would lighten up. -------------------------------------------------------- JACK B. MONPAS-HUBER Doctoral Student and Graduate Teaching Assistant Department of Sociology University of Connecticut 344 Mansfield Rd., U-68, Storrs, CT 06269-2068 (860) 486-4423 [Department Office] (860) 486-4073 [My Office] E-mail: jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu -------------------------------------------------------- From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Tue Dec 9 14:59:27 1997 Received: from pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.34]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA05611 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:59:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from hud03.som.yale.edu (hud03.som.yale.edu [130.132.152.116]) by pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA02451 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:59:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348DBEEA.3F94@yale.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:58:02 -0500 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: daniel.ryan@yale.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Time limits References: <199712092137.OAA04224@csf.Colorado.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Then of course we could be empiricists on this count. I wonder what we'd find if we looked into time-to-degree of people we've come to know and respect as key folk in our discipline. If you corrected for things like era (and maybe even school, though that might be tricky) you might find some interesting stuff. But I wouldn't go that far since the point is hardly to predict success. Rather note that some pretty stellar folks have taken longer than the norm. Would you want to eliminate them from the field? Also, I would counsel skepticism on the "there are only so many resources to go around" arguments. It smuggles in all sorts of assumptions about the rationality and tight coupling of the process of "making" a social scientist that may not be so valid. Finally, the trim the fat, be lean and mean, tie expenditures to production mentality may very well succeed in transforming a discipline like ours into one where everyone selects things that can be in-the-oven and-out in a short four years and that may end up producing quite unintended consequences in terms of what constitutes sociology. Not to be retrograde about it, but there's much more to running a starship than answering a bunch of damn fool questions and more to growing a discipline than cost benefit analyses. DJR From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Dec 9 18:41:12 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id SAA16051 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:41:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQZER9KJNQAPU1Y8@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:39:55 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id UAA21430 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:41:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 20:41:34 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: SOCGRAD digest 135 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712100141.UAA21430@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Linda wrote: >I believe you mentioned 5 years to complete the Ph.D. Yes, I mentioned this as the average time *at my department*. You and the other posters to this thread have mistakenly assumed that I was generalizing to all other departments. >In this sense, your comment that, "Most of the folks who >take longer around her [at J.H.U., I take it] really didn't have their >acts together..." is not only insensitive and out of touch with the very >large percentage of graduate students out there literally working their >tails off despite the odds, it is WRONG. I have seen a number of students reach dissertating time with no idea of what their research topic will be. Then they flirt with various topics, usually resisting the necessity of developing a working hypothesis. Often they will take up two, three, or more topics before they finally settle on one. This is what I mean by not having your act together. I am always astonished that anyone would even apply to grad school without already having research interests. And what were they thinking about during the two or three years of classes, knowing what lay before them? How can you arrive at dissertating time with no clue? These are not necessarily incompetent individuals at all. In fact, many of them are very talented, but they clearly don't have their acts together. >You claim that, "If you can't work the system at the >lower levels then you probably won't be able to at the career level >either" is interesting. Perhaps you can provide some useful advice on >this count to those of us who have been surviving on the lower levels of >the American social class hierarchy for some time now. Or, is it that, >according to the "evolutionary perspective" you apparently adopt, except >in the case of higher education, knowledge on how to *work the system* is >something that people like myself should already be familiar enough with?? You have taken some of my words out of context and woven them into a straw man. However, I will respond. I don't particularly like the prestige system. I was merely pointing out that it is rational to make use of it, and that in a limited sense it is univeralistic and meritocratic. How you have connected this observation to the american class hierarchy is unclear. When I used the word "levels", I was referring to the academic career ladder, not class hierarchies. The ability to "work the system" in academia is predicated on understanding how the system works and doing what you have to to make it work in your favor. Figuring out how the system works is not that difficult. You do it by observing the social system around you, locating key informants, and asking them questions. If someone can't figure out the academic career system they're embedded in, my guess is that they won't be very good at understanding other kinds of social systems either. And that's what sociologists *do*. Of course, just knowing how the system works doesn't necessarily mean you'll be able to work it in your favor. Of course it could be made more rational and more universalistic. But this is probably the stuff of a new thread. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Dec 9 19:00:30 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA17777 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:00:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQZFFC5DAGAPU1Y8@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:59:20 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id VAA04018 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:01:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:01:27 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: SOCGRAD digest 135 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712100201.VAA04018@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Tom's latest comment was actually his most offensive to me -- that >people should "wait" to go until their situations clear up a little. >Well, when would that be, pray tell. most people do not have that >kind of flexibility (or resources to wait that long). If those people >who have obligations such as children or elderly parents waited until >the children were grown or the parents were dead, then a large >portion of our grad student population would be elsewhere, rather than >improving their minds (and the institution of acadmia in my opinion). > >Who the hell are you to tell single parents to wait to go back to >school? Seeing as most of those are *still* women, that would mean >that your advice translates to telling women to clear up their lives >before they clutter the precious institution of academia with their >personal problems. If you want to engage the question I actually raised, rather than the straw man argument you have fantasized and attributed to me, I will restate it: To what extent should departmental funding support of grad students be made according to the challenges they face in their personal lives? Should people with personal problems extraneous to their academic endeavors be given extra money and extra time? How will the added costs that these outside problems carry be paid for? These are pressing policy issues that administrators have to deal with, in the context of a zero-sum game called "the budget". The budget is a real-world constraint, just as the students' personal problems are real-world constraints. As the system is currently configured, not everybody in the world can be supported for as long as it takes to get their doctorate. So what criteria should be used to allocate the funds that exist? From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Dec 9 19:12:30 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA18702 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:12:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQZFV7MN0MAPU1RR@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:12:08 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id VAA11258 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:14:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:14:16 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Time limits To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712100214.VAA11258@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >You know, I've never been very persuaded by individual responsibility / "if only > you >would work harder" / blame-the-victim arguments like Tom Brown's. While there a >re >certainly those unmotivated students who after so long may deserve to be cut off >, I >suspect from Nandini's, Danielle's, and now Linda's comments, a more common stud >ent might >be the highly motivated but structurally challenged (family, marriage, kids, job >s, etc.) >student. Like Linda, I too reject the instrumentally rational model that Tom us >es on the >grounds that it is inherently elite-serving, unrealistic, and makes life in grad > school >>harder than it already is. Tom, I really wish you would lighten up. You are the third person today to attribute a straw man argument to me. While my posts to this list take me about as long as it takes to type them, I think that my points have been reasonably clear. I am addressing the policy question of how grad funding will be allocated. I have made but *one* statement that could be construed as normative, and that was my statement that students in my department who take longer than five years in many cases don't have their acts together. But that is about one department, and about one category of student within that department. Other posters have broadened the discussion to include the effects of students' personal problems and challenges on their academic performance. Fine, but this thread was started to address funding policy. How should funding policy deal with personal problems? I have made no positive assertions on this issue, and I reject all of the straw men that have been attributed to me so far. This is an important topic, but no one has yet addressed the policy issues that have been raised. Of course, some students are "structurally challenged"--that is obvious--but how should policy come to terms with that? That's what's on the table here. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Dec 9 19:22:26 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA19041 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:22:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQZG7UTYLSAPU1RR@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:21:32 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id VAA16923 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:23:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:23:41 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Time limits To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712100223.VAA16923@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> References: <199712092137.OAA04224@csf.Colorado.EDU> >Also, I would counsel skepticism on the "there are only so many >resources to go around" arguments. It smuggles in all sorts of >assumptions about the rationality and tight coupling of the process of >"making" a social scientist that may not be so valid. >Not to be retrograde about it, but there's much more to running a >starship than answering a bunch of damn fool questions and more to >growing a discipline than cost benefit analyses. It's naive to assume away budget constraints. If there weren't budget constraints, I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. >Finally, the trim the fat, be lean and mean, tie expenditures to >production mentality may very well succeed in transforming a discipline >like ours into one where everyone selects things that can be in-the-oven >and-out in a short four years and that may end up producing quite >unintended consequences in terms of what constitutes sociology. This is another important policy consideration, but it speaks to academic reasons for taking a long time. It's a categorically different issue than paying to support people with personal problems that slow them down. We essentially have two separate issues on the table now: 1) How long "should" a sociology degree take to completion, given that budget contraints do exist? 2) How much leeway should be built into the funding system to give extra support to students who run into bad luck, or who bring serious personal challenges along with them? From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Dec 9 19:49:06 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id TAA21222 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:49:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7393; Tue, 09 Dec 97 21:49:02 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5868; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:49:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 21:38:12 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: time limits To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971209.214835.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't know -- up until year 5 or so, I had "my act together" -- making it very public knowledge what it was I wished to do my dissertation on -- my original idea was a neat little empirical study of how clergymembers balanced definitions of the religious and secular environments they were in in terms of dealing with deviant folks -- primarily folks with AIDS. The problem was at least one of the supposed qualitative/Sociology of AIDS folks around here (not to give the person away) somehow didn't understand the possibility that social structures are as much defined as they are objective constraints -- and one of the two religion folks on my committee was deadset against any sort of research which would actually assume clergy, or religion had any real authority in society. When that failed, I proposed to do a documentary analysis of how religious professionals defined the religious and the secular (versus assuming it to be objective fact) -- I even won a national paper award for SSSR for that one -- that also failed. So, I fired my committee, burned out, and in order to get out I am doing ever so fun number crunching which proves to me what is obvious -- people's definitions of society matter in what they do religiously -- I guess because it was quantitative (even though outside of the world according to mid-70's at best Socio-ontology) it got approved -- and it looks like I will finish 3 years past proposal -- not the greatest, but by no means absurdly slow either. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Dec 9 23:40:40 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id XAA01125 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:40:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IQZP76K30SAPU1Y8@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:39:05 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id BAA06911 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:41:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:41:13 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712100641.BAA06911@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> I just found your note about the FEMECON list in a remote corner of my mailbox. Thanks for the tip. I might check it out. The only feminist economist I know of is Julianne Malveaux, who is not terribly interesting. yrs, t From tr@tryoung.com Wed Dec 10 06:41:11 1997 Received: from ntserver3.sensible-net.com ([208.18.224.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA18994; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:41:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.90]) by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA311; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:43:56 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971210084024.271f9982@sensible-net.com> X-Sender: tr@sensible-net.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Sociology of Religion at Christmas time Cc: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:43:56 -0500 Those who wish to teach/think about the way Christmas fits into the sociology of religion from a postmodern critical point of view may find two articles in the Transforming Sociology Series of the Red Feather Institute which may be helpful to that purpose: 1. #148 Postmodern Understandings of the God Concept: Social Justice and the Drama of the Holy, at: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/148I-god.htm 2. Typifications of Christ at Christmas and Easter: A Mini-lecture for Grad students in Sociology, at: http://www.uvm.edu/~dlanger/lectures/22typi.htm And...for a more historical overview of Christianity and its fit into a globalized political economy go to: #157 Postmodern Religion and the Global World Order: Postmodern Theology and Social Justice TR Young, Editor Transforming Sociology Series TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From conroyt@bu.edu Wed Dec 10 07:57:42 1997 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA23499 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:57:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id JAA129652; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:55:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:55:53 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: Thomas F Brown cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: SOCGRAD digest 135 In-Reply-To: <199712100201.VAA04018@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Thomas F Brown wrote: > > To what extent should departmental funding support of grad > students be made according to the challenges they face in > their personal lives? Should people with personal problems > extraneous to their academic endeavors be given extra money > and extra time? How will the added costs that these outside > problems carry be paid for? > > These are pressing policy issues that administrators have > to deal with, in the context of a zero-sum game called > "the budget". The budget is a real-world constraint, just > as the students' personal problems are real-world constraints. > > As the system is currently configured, not everybody in the world > can be supported for as long as it takes to get their doctorate. So > what criteria should be used to allocate the funds that exist? Tom, it seems that Dan Ryan suggested an answer to this when he referred to the value of innovative work in the discipline, rather than lock-step, cookie-cutter research. I agree with him that we should seek to maintain innovation and creativity, and that this cannot necessarily be rigidly tied to a universal time limit (not that that is your stance, I realize). On the other hand, I am enough of a realist to know that we get assessed, much of the time, by the various gatekeepers by our productivity - both its quality and its quantity. I'm not exactly sure how the criteria which you call for here should be formalized, but my sense - and in response to the various comments your posts have touched off - there should be some way of taking extranous/life circumstance factors into consideration. There should also be more material rewards offered to those who wish to innovate and explore and to work in underworked areas and subfields. It also seems that we collectively should support efforts toward both the preservation of academic freedom and autonomy and an increase in investment in social science and social scientists. Budgets may indeed be real worldly constraints, but the question seems to be: how to convince the budgetmakers and administrators of our value? And how do so while avoiding taking on a "marketplace mentality?" Tom Conroy Boston University From millera@soc.umn.edu Wed Dec 10 08:00:47 1997 Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu (mhub0.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.50]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id IAA23729 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:00:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from soc.soc.umn.edu by mhub0.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 97 09:00:29 -0600 Received: from SOCIOLOGY/SpoolDir by soc.umn.edu (Mercury 1.21); 10 Dec 97 09:00:56 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by SOCIOLOGY (Mercury 1.30); 10 Dec 97 09:00:27 -0600 From: "Amy C. Miller" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:00:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Time limits and funding constraints Reply-to: millera@soc.umn.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <16581391538@soc.umn.edu> Alright everyone! Let's pick this issue to pieces and move on to a different topic! All >quotes are from Tom Brown: >1) How long "should" a sociology degree take to completion, given >that budget contraints do exist? >2) How much leeway should be built into the funding system to give >extra support to students who run into bad luck, or who bring serious >personal challenges along with them? >To what extent should departmental funding support of grad >students be made according to the challenges they face in >their personal lives? Should people with personal problems >extraneous to their academic endeavors be given extra money >and extra time? How will the added costs that these outside >problems carry be paid for? >These are pressing policy issues that administrators have >to deal with, in the context of a zero-sum game called >"the budget". The budget is a real-world constraint, just >as the students' personal problems are real-world constraints. As far as funding goes, in my department there is plenty of funding in the form of Teaching Assistantships, Instructorships, and Research Assistantships, plus a variety of departmental and University fellowships. Our "Budget" doesn't seem to be as restricted as other departments. Students simply apply for funding every year, and if they need additional funding they can request it from the department or from faculty with research money. There is also a considerable amount of University funding in other departments. Students can find funding fairly easily for seven or more years. Perhaps I am biased because of this, but I don't think funding is the cause of delayed finishing. When my students come to me with personal problems, I tend to cut them some slack. I'll give them incompletes if necessary, BUT I also give them a considerable amount of support and structure to assist them in completing the requirements for my course. To translate this into graduate student experience, I must ask: If graduate students are facing personal problems, don't they need MORE than financial assistance? If you are so concerned with financial equality, then give all students the same amount of financial aid. For those with personal problems - give them more GUIDANCE! If the students in my department received more academic guidance, we would not take an average of *eight* years to complete the PhD program. And please, Tom, do not misconstrue what I am asking for - I am not asking for "hand-holding." I am asking for more thorough explanations of how to write publishable papers, how to write the dissertation, how to obtain grants, how to manage time, etc. I am talking about "career development" and the teaching of skills, NOT "hand-holding" or doing the work for the student. >The ability to "work the system" in academia is predicated on >understanding how the system works and doing what you have to do >make it work in your favor. Figuring out how the system works is not >that difficult. You do it by observing the social system around you, >locating key informants, and asking them questions. Figuring out how the system works CAN be difficult - as in my case as stated below. I spent three years of "fieldwork" figuring out how my department worked, and I am still discovering how it works. >Of course, just knowing how the system works doesn't necessarily >mean you'll be able to work it in your favor. Of course it could be >made more rational and more universalistic. But this is probably the >stuff of a new thread. Making the system work in our favor in my department is quite difficult, as my department is set up in a way that does not consider student need. >How can you arrive at dissertating time with no clue? These are not >necessarily incompetent individuals at all. In fact, many of them >are very talented, but they clearly don't have their acts together. I have an explanation for this from my own experience. In my department, graduate students are told VERY little about the academic process. We have two years of in-department required coursework and a third year of outside required coursework. In all of the in-department coursework that I have taken, we were supposed to write a "publishable" paper. Yet HOW to write the paper was never explained. We were told to look at academic journals and emulate them. Okay, fine - but HOW? The same thing happens with dissertations. No one told us what a prelim was and it took me three years of networking and asking graduate students to finally figure out the process. To make my point very clear: Arriving at dissertation time with no clue is very easy - when you do not have any guidance! Almost all of the faculty members in my department are so self-focused that they do not take advising seriously. A rare few take the time to nurture student's individual work. A RARE few. And these few are difficult to discover and then score for an advisorship. >You have taken some of my words out of context and woven them into >a straw man. I too "wove your words into a straw man". Hmph. Don't you think it is interesting that so many of us misunderstood your intentions?! Even though you think you are being clear, you might want to backpedal a little and rethink how you say things. Amy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Amy C. Miller Graduate Student Data Center Manager Department of Sociology University of Minnesota ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Wed Dec 10 10:53:46 1997 Received: from pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.34]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id KAA03888 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:53:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from hud03.som.yale.edu (hud03.som.yale.edu [130.132.152.116]) by pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA26654 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:53:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348ED6CF.37D4@yale.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:52:15 -0500 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: daniel.ryan@yale.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Time limits References: <199712092137.OAA04224@csf.Colorado.EDU> <199712100223.VAA16923@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas F Brown wrote: ...other stuff deleted... > 1) How long "should" a sociology degree take to completion, given > that budget contraints do exist? If we insist on premising the question on the "given..." phrase, then I think we should rephrase the question along the lines of "Given how many sociologists the world needs, the critical mass the community of the department requires, upcoming teaching requirements, and the importance of appearing to the rest of the world to be using resources wisely lest we get slammed and have our funding taken away...how long..." Otherwise, it would seem to me that the appropriate policy analysis approach would be to separately analyze the questions of how long it takes to make good sociologists (and the shape of the distribution) and then how many sociologists we need to produce and then whether we can do so given budget constraints. What's the point of being a profession or discipline if the answer derives solely from budget constraints with a little humanitarian flexibility added? [And note that the calculus that sees TAships and RAships simply in terms of "support," as if there is only one side to the transaction, smuggles in approval for running an organization on the assumption that there are "plenty of people who'd like to be in your place." Fine if you subscribe to that approach, but let's make it explicit.] > 2) How much leeway should be built into the funding system to give extra > support to students who run into bad luck, or who bring serious personal > challenges along with them? But let's do note that if we were to open the question of what constitutes "personal challenges" we will be a long time before consensus. If you add the fact that folks often deprecate problems by calling them "personal," you get yet more contrariness still. There once was this passage in Mills about unsociologically characterizing things as "personal problems" I think. * * * Note: I actually think "timely completion" is a great thing. I also think that most grad programs are a long way from having a structurally conducive environment in which to make it happen. I don't mean that the "blame" only goes on the department, only that done well, structural adjustments may be a much more efficient way to achieve the goal. Unfortunately, most people are rather inept about setting such things up. It's a genuine organizational/institutional challenge. A more or less Darwinist approach may "work," but it is terribly inelegant from a sociological point of view, IMHO. Sort of like opening walnuts with a sledge hammer. dan From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Dec 10 17:28:54 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA25050 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:28:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IR0QHWRM9GASBFI3@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:27:15 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA12134 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:30:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:30:22 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Time limits and funding constraints To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712110030.TAA12134@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >When my students come to me with personal problems, I tend to cut them >some slack. I'll give them incompletes if necessary, BUT I also give >them a considerable amount of support and structure to assist them in >completing the requirements for my course. One would hope that such sympathy and leeway could be built into every institutional structure. On the other hand, at some point the problem will exceed the leeway built in. Then the grad department becomes a counseling center or welfare hotel. But I doubt that situations reach such extremes very often, and this is probably not the reason that administrators think about implementing time limits. I think that argument is a bit of a red herring. (I'm not suggesting that you made it.) >To translate this into >graduate student experience, I must ask: >If graduate students are facing personal problems, don't they need >MORE than financial assistance? Depends on their problem. Money can solve a lot. >If the students in my department received more academic guidance, we >would not take an average of *eight* years to complete the PhD >program. And please, Tom, do not misconstrue what I am asking for - >I am not asking for "hand-holding." I am asking for more thorough >explanations of how to write publishable papers, how to write the >dissertation, how to obtain grants, how to manage time, etc. I am >talking about "career development" and the teaching of skills, NOT >"hand-holding" or doing the work for the student. In my limited experience, I would have to agree with you that lack of mentoring is a major weakness in the system of graduate education, at least in sociology departments. Even if one supports a highly meritocratic model, it seems to me that Darwinian selection may not be the most effective way of producing the top scholars. On the other hand, I have found that simply asking questions about those topics will get you answers. It is not secret esoteric knowledge that is being kept hidden out of sight. It's simply that there is no institutional structure for disseminating it. But shouldn't people who are learning to be scholars--which is an inherently entrepreneurial occupation--take some responsibility for seeking out information? Isn't that what scholars are supposed to be good at? And the specific topics you raise--writing a journal article, a grant proposal, or a dissertation--are all addressed in a number of books. I have never asked anyone about this stuff. I have asked about which journal or which funding source I should go to, or who I should talk to. But to have to ask about the basic mechanics of writing a paper would be wasting my informants' time. Asking them to look over my draft, on the other hand, is a common request. Students need to take at least some initiative for learning the ropes. >In all of the >in-department coursework that I have taken, we were supposed to write >a "publishable" paper. Yet HOW to write the paper was never >explained. We were told to look at academic journals and emulate >them. Okay, fine - but HOW? I'm not sure what answers you are looking for. Writing for publication is hard work. There is no easy answer. You just do it, then you get feedback, then you go back and try to make it better. What more can anyone tell you about the process? >The same thing happens with >dissertations. No one told us what a prelim was and it took me three >years of networking and asking graduate students to finally figure out >the process. > >Arriving at dissertation time with no clue is very easy - when you do >not have any guidance! Almost all of the faculty members in my >department are so self-focused that they do not take advising >seriously. A rare few take the time to nurture student's individual >work. A RARE few. And these few are difficult to discover and then >score for an advisorship. Here we do have a seminar for beginning dissertators in which people bring in their ideas and we all discuss them and give suggestions and other support to one another. It's built into the course structure, but at many other places students form such informal support groups. >I too "wove your words into a straw man". Hmph. No, you didn't do that at all. You directly addressed the questions I raised. Thank you. Give yourself more credit. >Don't you think it >is interesting that so many of us misunderstood your intentions?! >Even though you think you are being clear, you might want to backpedal >a little and rethink how you say things. Yes, when three people in one day attribute a straw man to me, then I take some responsibility for being unclear. But this is email, and I'm not going to spend any time rewriting it. That's just one of the things that happens in this kind of communication. I'm used to it. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Dec 10 17:43:14 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA26031 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IR0R02ZX4QASBFE5@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:41:27 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA24279 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:45:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:45:00 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Time limits To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712110045.TAA24279@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >If we insist on premising the question on the "given..." phrase, then I >think we should rephrase the question along the lines of "Given how many >sociologists the world needs, the critical mass the community of the >department requires, upcoming teaching requirements, and the importance >of appearing to the rest of the world to be using resources wisely lest >we get slammed and have our funding taken away...how long..." > >Otherwise, it would seem to me that the appropriate policy analysis >approach would be to separately analyze the questions of how long it >takes to make good sociologists (and the shape of the distribution) and >then how many sociologists we need to produce and then whether we can do >so given budget constraints. What's the point of being a profession or >discipline if the answer derives solely from budget constraints with a >little humanitarian flexibility added? The question of "how many sociologists the world needs" seems to me just as instrumentally motivated and determined as any of the budgetary issues. I'm not understanding the distinction you're making. Your observation does raise an argument in favor of extended graduate residencies. If the world needs fewer sociologists, then maybe it would make more sense to limit admissions, and keep the people you do admit around longer in order to develop them yet further before you admit them into the profession. Done right, this could raise the quality of entry-level sociologists. It's not likely to happen, though, until budget limitations mandate it. >Note: I actually think "timely completion" is a great thing. I also >think that most grad programs are a long way from having a structurally >conducive environment in which to make it happen. I don't mean that the >"blame" only goes on the department, only that done well, structural >adjustments may be a much more efficient way to achieve the goal. >Unfortunately, most people are rather inept about setting such things >up. It's a genuine organizational/institutional challenge. A more or >less Darwinist approach may "work," but it is terribly inelegant from a >sociological point of view, IMHO. Sort of like opening walnuts with a >sledge hammer. This is essentially what Amy was arguing. Stipulating that mentoring in sociology grad education is deficient, then what should be done about it? How can better mentoring be built into the system? OTOH, many people sail through with few problems. How do we know, then, that Darwinian selection isn't working efficiently to produce the best candidates? This needs to be problematized and examined. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Dec 10 18:18:52 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA27007 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:18:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4861; Wed, 10 Dec 97 20:18:48 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5154; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:18:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 20:05:56 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: time limits To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971210.201820.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I do think that if this drags on much longer, maybe it would be more constructive to take the discussion off the list (the delete key factor might be entering in here). How many sociologists the world needs can be a very crucial issue. I don't know how many folks on this list remember the early to mid-1980's, but there are memos in our departmental archives from even relatively progressive faculty questioning the morality of having a graduate program if the total number of tenure-track jobs listed in the employment bulletin in a given year is 40. On the other hand, some folks might be interested in learning for learnings' sake, but then there is the additional moral question of whether taxpayers ought to be subsidizing the intellectual interests of such people and furthermore, whether that warrants the reduced teaching loads and better leave time packages of those faculty in graduate departments -- this is the discursive environment in which we operate, folks, and 1971 is as far away as 1871 in terms of the mood of the country towards higher ed. On the other hand, there is also a departmental responsibility to get folks through in a timely manner. I would agree with the sentiment that if a department is letting folks get to year 3 or 4 post-BA without some sort of test of one's research acumen -- either in terms of ability to do research or conceptualize how research might be done -- they are failing the student just as much as the student is failing themselves. In UConn's case, the goal is a reasonable one -- assuming successful completion of 6 credits per semester, you should be done with courses in 3.5 years post BA -- and you (and the department) have 3.5 years beyond that point to get one finished -- if a department is structured to get folks out, that should be very doable. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Dec 10 20:04:02 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id UAA29812 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:03:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5519; Wed, 10 Dec 97 22:03:58 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5994; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:03:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 22:03:15 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Social theory web sites (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971210.220330.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:55:46 EST Reply-To: UCSB Religious Studies Forum Sender: UCSB Religious Studies Forum From: Alan Davidson Subject: Social theory web sites To: ANDERE-L@UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU I don't know exactly which web site Joel might be referring to, but one web site which has excerpts from most major social theorists' work is the "Sociologists: Dead and Very much alive" web site: the url is http://www.pscw.uva.nl/sociosite/TOPICS/Sociologists.html It even contains relatively contemporary folks like Garfinkel, Randall Collins, Baudrillard, Habermas, Coleman, and Foucault. From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Dec 10 21:18:58 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id VAA05766 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:18:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from lindblom.rutgers.edu (lindblom.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.76]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA02562 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:18:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971210231852.00962f88@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:18:52 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: professional socialization in graduate programs In-Reply-To: <16581391538@soc.umn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:00 AM 12/10/97 -0600, Amy Miller wrote: >If the students in my department received more academic guidance, we >would not take an average of *eight* years to complete the PhD >program. And please, Tom, do not misconstrue what I am asking for - >I am not asking for "hand-holding." I am asking for more thorough >explanations of how to write publishable papers, how to write the >dissertation, how to obtain grants, how to manage time, etc. I am >talking about "career development" and the teaching of skills, NOT >"hand-holding" or doing the work for the student. > I agree that this kind of explicit "professional socialization" is very important. At Rutgers the graduate program really is structured to do these things explicitly and it has big payoffs in terms of graduate student success and morale. Some of the things the program does here include: 1) the graduate director (Eviatar Zerubavel) organizes a couple professional socialization meetings (attendance optional but most students go) per semester where he and usually two or three other faculty come in and talk on a subject and then open the floor for graduate student questions. The topics they've done include how to publish in journals, how to write your dissertation as a book & dealing with university presses (where they invited the editor of a press to talk and answer questions), how to choose a dissertation topic and select a committee, how to put together a teaching portfolio, how to write a vita, how to schedule your writing time, etc.. 2) the program has a required course (students actually lobbied to have it required : ) ) called a "writing seminar." It's somewhat misnamed in that it's really not so much a writing seminar as a course on how to be a scholar and publish. The set up of the class is that everyone chooses a paper they've already written that they'd like to turn into a "qualifying paper" or a "journal article." They work on the paper every week and each week a couple people's papers are read beforehand by the entire class, each member of the class writes a critique of the paper, and we discuss those papers in class. Much of the class centers around whether the paper asks "sociologically interesting" questions, does the writer use the best methods for their question and the like. Also what I really liked about the class was that the professor brought in articles he'd submitted for publication and showed us the rejection letters, revise and resubmit letters, and acceptance letters and reviews he received at different stages of the process to show people how the reviewing process works and how the process of revision works. 3) we have a qualifying paper system (instead of comprehensive exams) where students produce 3 publishable quality papers. You work with two mentors on each and they critique multiple drafts of the papers until they've reached a publishable standard. Of course, this system only works if the mentors take their job seriously (which most of them fortunately do). The paper system has become so institutionalized that it's not unusual to have professor's right on one's course paper "if you'd like to turn this into a qualifying paper you will need to do x..y...and..z, let's talk about this if you're interested." By the time students get to dissertating stage they've already worked with a mini-committee three times, they have some idea of who they work well with (or don't work well with) and in some cases they're even lucky enough to have two or three chapters of their dissertation from the papers. 4) the graduate director and the staff person in charge of helping people find grants, schedule individual meeting with every student when they become ABD to discuss their job market goals and strategies, how to tailor themselves, their vita, and their cover letter for the job they want, etc. Ideally I think this is the kind of model that should be more common in the field. In places where faculty aren't receptive to such ideas, perhaps one could convince established graduate students to run some similar types of workshops. This too happens here, where nth year students pass on knowledge to newer cohorts in professional socialization workshops. Recently we had one on how to submit a paper, present a paper at the ASA's, and how to enjoy an ASA conference (with due credit to Dan Ryan's popular and humorous memo on this). We also had one on teaching where three graduate students who have won teaching awards talked about how to teach and then fielded questions from each other. The payoffs of this non-Darwinian approach are not only that lots of students publish, and have an active presence at conferences, but that the overall climate in the department is collegial and social. Graduate students share ideas and papers with each other, students hang out socially across cohorts and the like. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Thu Dec 11 14:29:35 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA20825 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:29:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IR1YJBWU26ASBF51@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:27:47 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA27099 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:31:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:31:22 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: professional socialization in graduate programs To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712112131.QAA27099@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >4) the graduate director and the staff person in charge of helping people >find grants Could you tell a bit more about what this person does exactly, and what her qualifications are? We have no one who does that. Our mentoring structures are a bit different from Rutgers. Here, every student is required to do at least two RAs of at least a semester's length with at least two different professors. The advantage over Rutger's plan is that students get more varied and intensive contact with faculty. The disadvantage re Rutgers is that students work on faculty projects rather than their own. Here, students have a good shot at a co-authorship in a first-rate journal. At Rutgers, you have a better shot at a sole authorship, although cracking a top journal is rough for a beginner. But both approaches suggest that the department has an institutional structure that ensures that each student in the program has access to mentoring experiences with at least two professors. Seems to me that some variant of these plans should be in place at *every* department. I think the writing seminar is a valuable element of the program. Here, it began as a student-run program for the first few years. The faculty realized that it was good, and made it a required course, now led by a professor. Writing a paper and getting faculty comments is available to any grad student anywhere, but the writing seminar serves as a kick in the pants for less ambitious and less motivated students. But to teach how to format a CV, apply for a job, write a cover letter, what the headings are in a journal article and what order they come in-- this is relatively trivial stuff. I think it's a waste of faculty time to have them teaching this kind of thing. But that information still needs to be disseminated to incoming students, and it's inefficient for everyone to have to reinvent the wheel when it comes to learning the ropes on their own. The compromise solution I am trying to implement here is a departmental lending library containing various handbooks on career topics: academic job-hunting, writing for journals, dealing with academic presses, proposal writing, dissertation planning and writing, etc. Further, I want to place some language in the departmental program handbook that is given to each entering student that lays out this information they need to acquire, and points them towards the resources they will need to acquire it. From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Fri Dec 12 01:43:28 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id BAA17416 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:43:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from lindblom.rutgers.edu (lindblom.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.76]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA05749 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:43:20 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971212034321.00963dac@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:43:21 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: professional socialization in graduate programs In-Reply-To: <199712112131.QAA27099@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:31 PM 12/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >>4) the graduate director and the staff person in charge of helping people >>find grants > >Could you tell a bit more about what this person does exactly, and what >her qualifications are? We have no one who does that. Sure. She is a full time "research coordinator" for the Center for Social Research and Instruction Grant Support Center which is affiliated with the sociology department. As I understand it her primary job is to help people find grants by gathering information for them, helping newer folks (i.e. grad students) navigate the maze of funding opportunities, write proposals and the like. The CSRI helps administer grants and set up websites for a several of the social sciences and humanities at Rutgers. And within the sociology dept. itself this staff person is really there to help graduate students with finding outside funding sources such as fellowships and small grants. This is pretty important here since graduate students, for the most part, are doing independent projects and thus don't have access to as many faculty projects to piggyback onto (except in medical sociology and some economic sociology where there are more collaborative opportunities available). >Our mentoring structures are a bit different from Rutgers. Here, every >student is required to do at least two RAs of at least a semester's >length with at least two different professors. The advantage over >Rutger's plan is that students get more varied and intensive contact >with faculty. The disadvantage re Rutgers is that students work on >faculty projects rather than their own. Here, students have a good >shot at a co-authorship in a first-rate journal. At Rutgers, you >have a better shot at a sole authorship, although cracking a top >journal is rough for a beginner. I'm not sure what you mean by more varied contacts, but otherwise I would largely agree with these relative advantages and disadvantages of the models. I would add that the Hopkins model also gives competitive advantages in methodological sophistication because of the hands on research training. Our model, perhaps, provides advantages in developing one's own individual analytic contribution to their field. The solo-author Rutgers model also lends itself well for turning one's dissertation into a book and developing a trajectory for book writing. The collaboration model at other places like Hopkins lends itself well to a research trajectory of getting grants, and producing articles in top-tier journals. These things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, of course. I'd agree too, that the key is the "institutional structure" which you mention below. The exact form on that structure will vary depending on the ability of department's to fund RA's, the types of methodological and substantive specialties of the programs and the like. >But both approaches suggest that the department has an institutional >structure that ensures that each student in the program has access >to mentoring experiences with at least two professors. Seems to me that >some variant of these plans should be in place at *every* department. > >I think the writing seminar is a valuable element of the program. Here, >it began as a student-run program for the first few years. The faculty >realized that it was good, and made it a required course, now led by >a professor. Writing a paper and getting faculty comments is available >to any grad student anywhere, but the writing seminar serves as a >kick in the pants for less ambitious and less motivated students. Yes, and it's also an eye-opener for students who just really haven't figured out what the game is all about yet. The key to success in graduate school is to make the transition from student to scholar. Traditionally, perhaps, getting the Ph.D. marked this transition. Now with ratcheting credentials and all, the full transition to scholar needs to happen much sooner while one is still in graduate school. A writing seminar geared towards professional journals and revisions is an explicit message that it's not about your grades, or meeting degree requirements, or dancing through institutional hoops, it's having something interesting to say to the community of scholars outside your university. Some people come in knowing that message, but those who aren't as knowledgeable about what this whole acedemia thing is about need the "eye opener" just like less motivated students benefit from the "kick in the pants." > >But to teach how to format a CV, apply for a job, write a cover letter, >what the headings are in a journal article and what order they come in-- >this is relatively trivial stuff. I think it's a waste of faculty time >to have them teaching this kind of thing. I probably should have said a little more about what goes on at these "town meetings" where the graduate director and two or three other faculty talk about these things. The CV meeting did talk a little about formatting, but it was a lot more about how 2nd and 3rd year students should be thinking about what they want their research trajectory to look like. It was about how to create a cv with both breadth and depth in one's actions so that when it comes down to actually formatting it, you have something outstanding to format. Obviously only learning formatting isn't going to help much if you don't have "the goods." Similarly much of the teaching portfolio meeting centered around how to balance teaching and research. This may seem minor, but its a critical issue here where students teach many of theor own classes and the immediate gratification of teaching can draw people away from the drudgery of research where payoffs may be 1, 2 or even more years down the road. And just having an atmosphere where 3 or 4 faculty open up questions to students from every cohort (and eventually older students are answering younger cohorts questions etc.) I think contributes to a climate of professional socialization which might not be acheived as fully through everyone simply seeking out such information as individuals. I'm willing to grant that these things may seem mundane, but excellence is often created through multiple mundane practices. Dan Chambliss' illustrated this in an article about Olympic Swimmers called "The Mundanity of Excellence" (basically he showed that the variance between olympic stars and less accomplished elite swimmers was nothing more than the stars better training in the mundane skills of becoming a first class swimmer--trivial stuff like proper technique in pushing off the walls etc..) and the same probably holds true for creating "championship" scholars so to speak. I would contend that the variance between a "champion" scholar and someone who becomes a chronic ABD isn't "talent," it's knowing how to write a grant proposal, how to manage one's writing time, or how to submit an article to a journal, and the like. In any rate, the amount of faculty time for some of these things is not that much. And faculty do plenty of committee work and other forms of service that are equally mundane and seemingly a waste of time. Of course your compromise solutions are a possible alternative if faculty are unwilling or unable to take on a larger role in the more mundane aspects of professional socialization. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Dec 12 07:00:04 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA26032 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:00:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7919; Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:59:59 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9844; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:59:59 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:53:46 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: time to completion To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971212.085931.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Actually, to build upon Wayne's comments, the main predictor of time to completion in most studies is having dedicated worktime for at least a few hours for at least 4 days per week -- certain other factors also enter into it -- teaching load, residency (in terms of access to resources 24/7 if needed), but the main thing is writing time. I think the problem most abd's get into is, once you have been in grad. school for a particular number of years, the emotional intensity required to dedicate that worktime is lost -- especially if you aren't doing your first choice for a dissertation. In terms of the main difference not being talent, I agreee -- one would hope that a dept. would be able to screen out folks who aren't going to cut it well before dissertation time. From conroyt@bu.edu Fri Dec 12 13:38:25 1997 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA19367 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:38:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id PAA257126 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:36:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:36:28 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: list Subject: job market issue Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know that this issue has been recently discussed, but as a follow-up to the concerned talk of many of us facing the job market and our having to send extensive application packets, I am wondering what others might think about this: Upon logging on to the Chronicle's employment link a short while ago, I spotted an ad for a position for which I am interested. The catch is that they want - in addition to the usual CV and letter - transcripts and letters. Also, the deadline for applying is the middle of January of next year. So, on the one hand I want to apply because I would be interested in working at this place; on the other hand, I am put off at the arrogance of this place - if they really believe that they will need more than a letter and CV to make their initial cut, then they should give people a bit more time, especially since it is the end of the semester for most of us and (at least some) letter writers may be out of contact over the next few weeks. Well, I mostly felt the need to vent a bit, but if anyone has any reactions or comments, I'd love to hear them. Thanks and happy holidays to everyone on this list Tom From conroyt@bu.edu Sat Dec 13 09:28:23 1997 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA11964 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:28:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id LAA185062 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:26:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:26:33 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: list Subject: job market (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:18:45 -0500 (EST) From: Nandini Assar To: conroyt@bu.edu Subject: job market Tom, I have trouble posting to this list. Please forward my post. About the job-market--well, its pretty obvious some places require more materials than they will scan for the first round. Nobody can wade through 250 or 300 chapters. To me, this shows their inexperience in conducting job searches rather than arrogance. You might be interested to know that ASA is looking into establishing guidelines which do not put this extra burden on applicants at this very vulnerable juncture in their careers. Contact Carla Howery if you'd like an update on this project. I think she is on the committee that is looking into setting the guidelines. So, if you are interested in that position with the Jan 15 deadline, I'd encourage you to go ahead and apply. Do your best about getting in the materials they want. If they see you as a good fit, they will be flexible abut deadlines etc., I think. Good luck on the job search. Cheers, Nandini sociology department nassar@vt.edu From annika@tm.net.my Sun Dec 14 09:18:21 1997 Received: from weblock.tm.net.my (weblock.tm.net.my [202.188.0.180]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA20870 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:18:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from default ([202.188.59.111]) by weblock.tm.net.my (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 581-43702U150000L150000S0) with ESMTP id AAA3723 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:18:15 +0800 From: "Alice Fong" To: "Sociology Graduate Students -- International" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:23:24 +0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BD08EF.A8181B40" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971214161814.AAA3723@default> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD08EF.A8181B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe socgrad Alice Fong Theng Theng ------=_NextPart_000_01BD08EF.A8181B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

unsubscribe socgrad  Alice = Fong Theng Theng








------=_NextPart_000_01BD08EF.A8181B40-- From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Sun Dec 14 12:15:26 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA24732 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:15:24 -0700 (MST) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA21416; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:14:04 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:14:04 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Position Announcement (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/jwc/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I 'm enclosing the ad for a new tenure-track line in sociology at The College of Charleston. We are working on a tight schedule (February deadline) and would like to get the word out as soon as possible. Please pass the announcement along. Idee Winfield The College of Charleston. The Department of Sociology and Anthropology invites applications for a tenure-track Assistant Professor position beginning in August, 1998, pending final budgetary approval. Candidate must have successfully defended dissertation by application deadline. Teaching experience is required. We seek a broadly trained individual with specialties in social inequality and at least one other social problems area. The person would be expected to teach Power and Privilege (the writing intensive course required of all majors), at least one of the 100- level general education courses, and 300-level courses in the specialty area. Ability and willingness to teach the required advanced research methods course occasionally would also be desirable. Candidates should have a strong commitment to teaching within an undergraduate liberal arts setting. Application deadline is February 16, 1998. Send cover letter, vita, and names of three references to Chair, Sociology Search Committee, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, College of Charleston, 66 George Street, Charleston, South Carolina 29424. FAX: 803-953-5824. The College is an Affirmative Action, Equal Opportunity Employer. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Dec 14 14:25:55 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA27915 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:25:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0517; Sun, 14 Dec 97 16:25:51 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 7428; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:25:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 16:24:47 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Call for Papers -- Work and Family To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971214.162522.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:11:26 -0500 Reply-To: Eastern Sociological Society Sender: Eastern Sociological Society From: NMARSHALL@WELLESLEY.EDU Subject: Call for Papers -- Please Circulate Comments: To: lynnes@antioch-college.edu, queraltm@servms.fiu.edu, fjellmans@servms.fiu.edu, girardc@servms.fiu.edu, fernandezn@servms.fiu.edu, mfine@email.gc.cuny.edu, jssmith@ucdavis.edu, kevv@k.imap.itd.umich.edu, tannend@gunet.georgetown.edu, cenloe@clarku.edu, dbell@uci.edu, esther.skirboll@sru.edu, rhoda.taylor@sru.edu, yan@anthro.ucla.edu, SOC_Ehrlich@online.emich.edu, stack@garnet.berkeley.edu, kbsacks@anthro.ucla.edu, Rebecca_Upton@Brown.edu, afox1@luna.cas.usf.edu, jrosenbe@luna.cas.usf.edu, pellison@fas.harvard.edu, lamb@binah.cc.brandeis.edu, laslett@atlas.socsci.umn.edu, jhsb@osu.edu, lsanchez@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu, barbara.heyns@nyu.edu, gerson@socgate.nyu.edu, hughes@xp.nyu.edu, bolger.xp.psych.nyu.edu@WELLESLEY.EDU, saitken@mail.sdsu.edu, tcliffor@ameranthassn.org, sskomal@ameranthassn.org, marcia.bellas@uc.edu, paula.dubeck@uc.edu, david.maume@uc.edu, dana.vannoy@uc.edu, carlton@ucbeh.san.uc.edu, cubbinl@ucbeh.san.uc.edu, ritchey@ucbeh.san.uc.edu, 97HERS@WELLESLEY.EDU, NEMERSON@MA.ULTRANET.COM, ESSOC-L@UConnVM.UConn.Edu, RHBRADLEY@UALR.edu, ACSTEWAR@UCI.edu, EGREENBE@UCI.edu, AHUSTON , Kathleen.McCartney@unh.edu, COX.FPG@MHS.UNC.EDU, V5242E , V5080E , JXB@PSUVM.psu.edu, PRESCHL@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU, phillips@nas.edu, rcp4p@virginia.edu, IBCB@u.washington.edu, SPIEKER@max.u.washington.edu, DVANDELL@vms.macc.wisc.edu, mowen@utdallas.edu To: ESSOC-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU CALL FOR PAPERS for a Conference on "Work and Family: Today's Realities and Tomorrow's Visions", to be held November 6-7, 1998, in Boston, Massachusetts. The conference is co-sponsored by the Sloan Foundation, the Business and Professional Women's Foundation, and the Wellesley College Center for Research on Women. The conference will provide an opportunity for presentation and discussion of current research on combining employment and family responsibilities, and will be of interest to the research community, educators, students, employers, policy makers and program developers. Papers from all disciplines will be considered, and will be selected by peer-review committees, chaired by Rosanna Hertz and Nancy Marshall, of Wellesley College. Two-page paper proposals are due February 28, 1998. To receive a copy of the Call for Papers, call Mary O'Neill, 202-293-1100, ext. 182, or fax a request to 202-861-0298. The Call for Papers, in its entirety, will also be available on-line after January 1, 1998, at: www.wellesley.edu/WCW/crw/workfamily.html [this address is case-sensitive] From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Sun Dec 14 16:29:20 1997 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.206.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA04692 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:29:18 -0700 (MST) Received: (from lmiller@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA28649 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:29:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:29:17 -0800 (PST) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199712142329.PAA28649@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: how to leave Socgrad Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Too much email in your life? If you want to unsubscribe from Socgrad, send a message to: listproc@csf.colorado.edu and in the body of your message, type: unsub socgrad Remember to send the message to listproc, NOT to Socgrad itself. Any problems or questions can be directed to: lmiller@ucsd.edu or glenn@sobek.colorado.edu or bobwold@mail.utexas.edu 12/14/97 From sergioantas@mail.telepac.pt Sun Dec 14 16:34:06 1997 Received: from mail.telepac.pt (venus.telepac.pt [194.65.3.39]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA04862 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:33:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from nop16860 ([194.65.239.52]) by mail.telepac.pt (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 584-40066L0S0) with SMTP id AAA14490 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:29:02 +0000 From: "Sergio Antas" To: Subject: Re: Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:33:55 -0000 Message-ID: <01bd08e8$be7f71a0$34ef41c2@nop16860> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD08E8.BE7F71A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD08E8.BE7F71A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe socgrad Sergio Antas ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD08E8.BE7F71A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
unsubscribe socgrad  Sergio Antas
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD08E8.BE7F71A0-- From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Dec 14 16:59:51 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id QAA05498 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:59:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1279; Sun, 14 Dec 97 18:38:01 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 8510; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:38:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 18:36:54 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Ethnic representations session/call for papers To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <971214.183732.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:09:26 -0500 Reply-To: H-NET List on Ethnic History Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: CFP American Studies Seattle, Nov 19-22, 1998 To: Multiple recipients of list H-ETHNIC Reply-to: Nancy Ann Nield C A L L F O R P A P E R S Proposed panel for 1998 American Studies Association: Seattle, Nov 19-22, 1998 Invisible Men: Interrogations of Ethnicity and Embodiment in American Postwar Visual Culture Despite some scholarly attention to the impact of race and gender on the development and dissemination of visual and material culture in the United States, its recent histories rarely interrogate the way in which ethnicity affects all facets of the creation and reception of visual discourse in American culture and society. Our panel seeks to render visible the particular ethnic identities of the producers and consumers of American visual culture and criticism from the post-WWII period to the present moment. We wish to excavate and render problematic the manner in which (re)markings of a white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant identity/body as transparent and normative obscure or render invisible real relations of power and domination operative in American institutional, intellectual and social discourses. What alternative histories of American visual culture emerge when we attend to ethnicity as a salient category of analysis? How do criticism and pedagogy which posit white middle class heterosexual masculinity as a privileged locus of cultural production construct American national historical narratives and myths which silence and censor competing creative identities which acquire definition within the context of ethnicity? We invite papers which explore how the production and consumption of forms of American visual and material culture (including, but not limited to painting, sculpture, prints, film, photography, and television) from 1945 to the present bear on the embodied--and culturally constructed--ethnic identities of their creators and consumers. Papers addressing intersections between ethnicity and gender, race, class, and their articulation as tensions between national and international, figuration and abstraction, visual and discursive, memory and experience, tradition and innovation, citizen/resident and exile, the neighborhood and the city, are particularly welcomed. Some questions which panelists may consider but to which they may no means limit themselves include: --what are the roles of institutions and patronage in establishing and affirming ethnic identit(ies) in the United States in the period under consideration? --what is the status/role of the immigrant and the exile in the history of American visual culture? --how do we locate inscribed and performed signifiers of ethnicity on the body, in the home and studio, and within the production of American visual artists? --what relationships and tensions obtain between gender, sexuality, race and ethnicity in American visual production? --does the affirming, or identification of ethnicity necessarily render anxious or place pressure on the notion of an "American" artist? --how has the American and international press, newspapers, periodicals, magazines, TV, film inscribed and marketed American visual producers for different audiences? --do certain ethnically marked artists produce different, or differently inflected art for varying readerships or communities? Please send a CV and one page abstract by January 10, 1998 to: Andrea Pappas Department of Art and Art History Santa Clara University 500 El Camino Real Santa Clara, CA 95053 pappas@hooked.net Nancy Nield Department of Art History University of Chicago 5540 S. Greenwood Ave. Chicago, IL 60637 nanield@midway.uchicago.edu Email submissions are welcome. From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Dec 15 05:44:34 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA21461 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:44:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from abc (dcoon@abc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.3]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/mailhub+antispam+tar) with SMTP id GAA03080 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:44:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by abc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id GAA15428; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:44:30 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:44:29 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon X-Sender: dcoon@abc.ksu.ksu.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students International Subject: how to temporarily suspend Socgrad? In-Reply-To: <199712142329.PAA28649@weber.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What is the command to temporarily postpone/suspend SOCGRAD without unsubscribing, and how can you re-instate socgrad? I am going on vacation and do not want to fill up my e-mail quota. Sincerely, Dave Alan Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 204 Waters Hall Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University http://www.ksu.edu Manhattan, KS 66506 USA ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Dec 15 05:56:23 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id FAA21884 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:56:21 -0700 (MST) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id HAA25450; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:55:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:55:01 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: how to temporarily suspend Socgrad? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Dave Alan Coon wrote: > What is the command to temporarily postpone/suspend SOCGRAD without > unsubscribing, and how can you re-instate socgrad? I am going on vacation > and do not want to fill up my e-mail quota. > > Sincerely, > > Dave Alan Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon Just in case anyone else needs this info: set socgrad mail postpone sent in an email message addressed to listproc@csf.colorado.edu When you're ready for more mail, send: set socgrad mail ack (use 'digest' instead of 'ack' if you prefer the digest version). BTW, you can view the archives via netscape, Micro$oft Internet Exploiter, Lynx, etc at http://csf.coloardo.edu/lists/socgrad/ Cheers, Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/jwc/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From conroyt@bu.edu Tue Dec 16 17:16:49 1997 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA18727 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:16:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id TAA125661; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:15:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:15:07 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: TEACHSOCLIST cc: SOCGRADLIST Subject: Re: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pattie, Not to beat a dead horse to death, but since you are so convinced of Christa's clarity and need to be supported, could you explain one thing, please: What is an "undesirable" ideology? (I know what an ideology refers to, but what could be meant by this particular formulation)? On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Pattie Thomas wrote: > > Please stop criticizing Christa! This was her original post (which I kept > b/c I thought it was so good). All I can figure out is that the original > got lost in the shuffle because we are now debating the original fable and > stating that Christa's intentions were not obvious. I think she was very > straightforward in the posting and I for one appreciate her pointing this > posting out. IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT SHE DID NOT SUPPORT THE INTENTION OF > THIS "JOKE" and IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT THE ORIGINAL POSTER WAS OFFERING AN > PARTICULAR (AND I THINK CRUEL) VERSION OF THIS FABLE. > > I wouldn't even dignify this latest turn of the discussion with an answer, > but I'm really in a bad mood today and I'm tired of reading this thread > and most of all I want to show support for Christa. > > Christa, thanks again for posting it and for all the interesting > discussion it stimulated. If anything I think you have proven that it > would be a great discussion stimulator in the classroom and a sensitive > subject in society. Don't let all this misunderstanding "bug" you ;). > > Pattie Thomas > > On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 Christa.Hughes@asu.edu wrote: > > > I'm sending this to the two listserv's I subscribe to b/c I wanted > > to share this blatant form of cynicism and disgust, couched in the form of > > a "joke." Perhaps by viewing this we can see how 'undesirable' ideologies > > are transmitted now through this new form of media: the Internet. Most > > persons in the US (40%) who own a computer and have Internet access are > > middle-Americans who can now transmit these ideologies to their > > counterparts via this medium, with what ultimate consequences? I found > > this concept interesting. Whether it generates dialogue or not, it's food > > for thought. > > > > [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] > > > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 02:37:59 -0500 > > From: Ari's Humor List > > To: aris-humor@MyList.net > > Subject: Insect Politics > > > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long > > building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The > > grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays > > the summer away. Come winter the ant is warm and well fed. > > The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. > > > > > > Modern American Version: > > > > Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press > > conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed > > to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. > > CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and provide pictures of the > > shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his > > comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is > > stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be that, in a country > > of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? > > > > Then a representative of the NAAGB (The national association of > > green bugs) shows up on Nightline and charges the ant with "green > > bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 > > million years of greenism. Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with > > the grasshopper, and everybody cries when he sings, "It's not easy > > being green." > > > > Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS > > Evening News to tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do > > everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the > > prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the > > Reagan summers, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures of the > > 80's." > > > > Richard Gephardt exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that > > the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper and calls for > > an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share. > > Finally, the EECO drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism > > Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. > > > > The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green > > bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home > > is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to > > represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and > > the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that hear cases on > > Thursday's between 1:30 and 3pm when there are no talk shows > > scheduled. The ant loses the case. > > > > The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits > > of the ant's food while the government house he's in, which just > > happens to be the ant's old home, crumbles around him since he > > doesn't know how to maintain it. > > > > The ant has disappeared in the snow. > > > > And on the TV, which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the > > ant's food, they're showing Bill Clinton standing before a wildly > > applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of > > "fairness" has dawned in America. > > _______________________________________________________________ > > ARI'S HUMOR LIST > > by Ari Lifschitz > > > > For a free subscription: > > Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net > > Body of Message: subscribe > > > > To unsubscribe: > > Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net > > Body of Message: unsubscribe > > > > To contribute a joke: > > Send your jokes to: owner-aris-humor@MyList.net > > Do not send copyrighted material > > > > Keep on Laughing... > > > > From Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Wed Dec 17 00:06:45 1997 Received: from post3.inre.asu.edu (post3.inre.asu.edu [129.219.10.148]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA03293 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:06:42 -0700 (MST) From: Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Received: from general3.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24133) with ESMTP id <01IR9E0T28QI8X4VDJ@asu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:06:31 MST Received: from general3.asu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by general3.asu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA12248 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:06:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:06:24 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media In-reply-to: X-Sender: soc318@general3.asu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pardon my liberal-minded grammar. I meant to say that I find the common ideology of intolerance for economically-deprived persons undesirable. And Pattie, thanks for posting that again b/c I had forgotten that it stated that the grasshopper thought the ant a fool, which clearly indicates a consciousness of conditions of choice. If I were to use this scenario in my classes I think I'd leave out that part in order to assess prevailing assumptions. Christa Hughes On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, thomas conroy wrote: > Pattie, > > Not to beat a dead horse to death, but since you are so convinced of > Christa's clarity and need to be supported, could you explain one thing, > please: What is an "undesirable" ideology? (I know what an ideology refers > to, but what could be meant by this particular formulation)? > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Pattie Thomas wrote: > > > > > Please stop criticizing Christa! This was her original post (which I kept > > b/c I thought it was so good). All I can figure out is that the original > > got lost in the shuffle because we are now debating the original fable and > > stating that Christa's intentions were not obvious. I think she was very > > straightforward in the posting and I for one appreciate her pointing this > > posting out. IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT SHE DID NOT SUPPORT THE INTENTION OF > > THIS "JOKE" and IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT THE ORIGINAL POSTER WAS OFFERING AN > > PARTICULAR (AND I THINK CRUEL) VERSION OF THIS FABLE. > > > > I wouldn't even dignify this latest turn of the discussion with an answer, > > but I'm really in a bad mood today and I'm tired of reading this thread > > and most of all I want to show support for Christa. > > > > Christa, thanks again for posting it and for all the interesting > > discussion it stimulated. If anything I think you have proven that it > > would be a great discussion stimulator in the classroom and a sensitive > > subject in society. Don't let all this misunderstanding "bug" you ;). > > > > Pattie Thomas > > > > On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 Christa.Hughes@asu.edu wrote: > > > > > I'm sending this to the two listserv's I subscribe to b/c I wanted > > > to share this blatant form of cynicism and disgust, couched in the form of > > > a "joke." Perhaps by viewing this we can see how 'undesirable' ideologies > > > are transmitted now through this new form of media: the Internet. Most > > > persons in the US (40%) who own a computer and have Internet access are > > > middle-Americans who can now transmit these ideologies to their > > > counterparts via this medium, with what ultimate consequences? I found > > > this concept interesting. Whether it generates dialogue or not, it's food > > > for thought. > > > > > > [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] > > > > > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 02:37:59 -0500 > > > From: Ari's Humor List > > > To: aris-humor@MyList.net > > > Subject: Insect Politics > > > > > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long > > > building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The > > > grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays > > > the summer away. Come winter the ant is warm and well fed. > > > The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. > > > > > > > > > Modern American Version: > > > > > > Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press > > > conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed > > > to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. > > > CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and provide pictures of the > > > shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his > > > comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is > > > stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be that, in a country > > > of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? > > > > > > Then a representative of the NAAGB (The national association of > > > green bugs) shows up on Nightline and charges the ant with "green > > > bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 > > > million years of greenism. Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with > > > the grasshopper, and everybody cries when he sings, "It's not easy > > > being green." > > > > > > Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS > > > Evening News to tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do > > > everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the > > > prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the > > > Reagan summers, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures of the > > > 80's." > > > > > > Richard Gephardt exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that > > > the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper and calls for > > > an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share. > > > Finally, the EECO drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism > > > Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. > > > > > > The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green > > > bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home > > > is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to > > > represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and > > > the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that hear cases on > > > Thursday's between 1:30 and 3pm when there are no talk shows > > > scheduled. The ant loses the case. > > > > > > The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits > > > of the ant's food while the government house he's in, which just > > > happens to be the ant's old home, crumbles around him since he > > > doesn't know how to maintain it. > > > > > > The ant has disappeared in the snow. > > > > > > And on the TV, which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the > > > ant's food, they're showing Bill Clinton standing before a wildly > > > applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of > > > "fairness" has dawned in America. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > > ARI'S HUMOR LIST > > > by Ari Lifschitz > > > > > > For a free subscription: > > > Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net > > > Body of Message: subscribe > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net > > > Body of Message: unsubscribe > > > > > > To contribute a joke: > > > Send your jokes to: owner-aris-humor@MyList.net > > > Do not send copyrighted material > > > > > > Keep on Laughing... > > > > > > > > > From conroyt@bu.edu Wed Dec 17 06:07:13 1997 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id GAA10078 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:07:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id IAA43412; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:05:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:05:30 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International cc: Christa.Hughes@asu.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Okay, thanks, Christa, for making clear your position; I, and most likely most of us here, find this attitude intolerable as well. Though I'm not sure I'd use the term "ideology," since I take that to mean a tacit or official justification for the status quo, I now see what you were getting at. I hope that there are no hard feelings and that you keep posting. Happy holidays! Tom Conroy Boston University - Sociology On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 Christa.Hughes@asu.edu wrote: > Pardon my liberal-minded grammar. I meant to say that I find the > common ideology of intolerance for economically-deprived persons > undesirable. And Pattie, thanks for posting that again b/c I had forgotten > that it stated that the grasshopper thought the ant a fool, which clearly > indicates a consciousness of conditions of choice. If I were to use this > scenario in my classes I think I'd leave out that part in order to assess > prevailing assumptions. > > > Christa Hughes > > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, thomas conroy wrote: > > > Pattie, > > > > Not to beat a dead horse to death, but since you are so convinced of > > Christa's clarity and need to be supported, could you explain one thing, > > please: What is an "undesirable" ideology? (I know what an ideology refers > > to, but what could be meant by this particular formulation)? > > > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Pattie Thomas wrote: > > > > > > > > Please stop criticizing Christa! This was her original post (which I kept > > > b/c I thought it was so good). All I can figure out is that the original > > > got lost in the shuffle because we are now debating the original fable and > > > stating that Christa's intentions were not obvious. I think she was very > > > straightforward in the posting and I for one appreciate her pointing this > > > posting out. IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT SHE DID NOT SUPPORT THE INTENTION OF > > > THIS "JOKE" and IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT THE ORIGINAL POSTER WAS OFFERING AN > > > PARTICULAR (AND I THINK CRUEL) VERSION OF THIS FABLE. > > > > > > I wouldn't even dignify this latest turn of the discussion with an answer, > > > but I'm really in a bad mood today and I'm tired of reading this thread > > > and most of all I want to show support for Christa. > > > > > > Christa, thanks again for posting it and for all the interesting > > > discussion it stimulated. If anything I think you have proven that it > > > would be a great discussion stimulator in the classroom and a sensitive > > > subject in society. Don't let all this misunderstanding "bug" you ;). > > > > > > Pattie Thomas > > > > > > On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 Christa.Hughes@asu.edu wrote: > > > > > > > I'm sending this to the two listserv's I subscribe to b/c I wanted > > > > to share this blatant form of cynicism and disgust, couched in the form of > > > > a "joke." Perhaps by viewing this we can see how 'undesirable' ideologies > > > > are transmitted now through this new form of media: the Internet. Most > > > > persons in the US (40%) who own a computer and have Internet access are > > > > middle-Americans who can now transmit these ideologies to their > > > > counterparts via this medium, with what ultimate consequences? I found > > > > this concept interesting. Whether it generates dialogue or not, it's food > > > > for thought. > > > > > > > > [ Part 2: "Included Message" ] > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 02:37:59 -0500 > > > > From: Ari's Humor List > > > > To: aris-humor@MyList.net > > > > Subject: Insect Politics > > > > > > > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long > > > > building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The > > > > grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays > > > > the summer away. Come winter the ant is warm and well fed. > > > > The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern American Version: > > > > > > > > Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press > > > > conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed > > > > to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. > > > > CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and provide pictures of the > > > > shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his > > > > comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is > > > > stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be that, in a country > > > > of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? > > > > > > > > Then a representative of the NAAGB (The national association of > > > > green bugs) shows up on Nightline and charges the ant with "green > > > > bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 > > > > million years of greenism. Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with > > > > the grasshopper, and everybody cries when he sings, "It's not easy > > > > being green." > > > > > > > > Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS > > > > Evening News to tell a concerned Dan Rather that they will do > > > > everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the > > > > prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the > > > > Reagan summers, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures of the > > > > 80's." > > > > > > > > Richard Gephardt exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that > > > > the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper and calls for > > > > an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share. > > > > Finally, the EECO drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism > > > > Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. > > > > > > > > The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green > > > > bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home > > > > is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to > > > > represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and > > > > the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that hear cases on > > > > Thursday's between 1:30 and 3pm when there are no talk shows > > > > scheduled. The ant loses the case. > > > > > > > > The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits > > > > of the ant's food while the government house he's in, which just > > > > happens to be the ant's old home, crumbles around him since he > > > > doesn't know how to maintain it. > > > > > > > > The ant has disappeared in the snow. > > > > > > > > And on the TV, which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the > > > > ant's food, they're showing Bill Clinton standing before a wildly > > > > applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of > > > > "fairness" has dawned in America. > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > > > ARI'S HUMOR LIST > > > > by Ari Lifschitz > > > > > > > > For a free subscription: > > > > Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net > > > > Body of Message: subscribe > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > Send e-mail to: aris-humor-Request@MyList.net > > > > Body of Message: unsubscribe > > > > > > > > To contribute a joke: > > > > Send your jokes to: owner-aris-humor@MyList.net > > > > Do not send copyrighted material > > > > > > > > Keep on Laughing... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Dec 17 07:02:56 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA13949 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:02:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IR9WOJ4GL8ASBHMU@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:01:03 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id JAA04361 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:04:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:04:40 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199712171404.JAA04361@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> The Insect article struck me as a satire in the Swiftian tradition on the welfare state and on racial politics. While I don't share the political viewpoint expressed in the piece, it's an effective work of satire. It certainly managed to push all of the buttons it was trying to push. It seems to me that the best response would be to write an even more biting satire on the conservative ideology expressed in the Insect article. Arguing with a joke is futile. Better to fight fire with fire. From kcwalker@syr.edu Wed Dec 17 07:16:30 1997 Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA14268 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:16:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from kcwalker (sudial0315-107.syr.edu [128.230.1.107]) by syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20216 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:16:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712171416.JAA20216@syr.edu> From: "Kelley Crouse" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:15:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Fwd: (Insect Politics), bias and media In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) On 17 Dec 97 at 8:05, thomas conroy wrote: > Okay, thanks, Christa, for making clear your position; I, and most > likely most of us here, find this attitude intolerable as well. > Though I'm not sure I'd use the term "ideology," since I take that > to mean a tacit or official justification for the status quo, I now > see what you were getting at. I hope that there are no hard feelings > and that you keep posting. It seems to me that this story is rather too 'pithy'. Very little is said with regard to the grasshopper and the ant in the orginal story-- why one is working hard and getting ready for the lean and cold winter, while the other is enjoying his/herself and mocking the other's hard work. That is, the story is polysemic, leaving it to the reader to "fill in" the story, attributing motivations and the like to the ant and the grasshopper. The joke *is* ideological in that sense, particularly since the original story clearly upholds the Puritan work ethic. (Perhaps I missed this, but where did the story originate? I've heard it before as a child, I think in a book of fables) What would you call the original story, Tom, if not ideological? I'm not being confrontational, just curious about how people define 'ideological' which is a word, as you probably know, that has entire articles and books devoted to the debates over its meanings. In the American version, the possible multiple interpretations of the original story are foreclosed. In the original version, a reader might interpret it as a cautionary tale about the importance of hard work, planning ahead, deferred gratification--all components of a secularized Puritan work ethic. In fact, I'd say that most USers would probably interpret it in this way. The American version buttresses this interpretation, but the fable 'works' by reinscribing a neo-conservative ideology in which the ant is 'victimized' by the grasshopper's 'manipulation' of the media (read sympathetic liberal establishment) and political figures, such as Bill and Hilary (why was Hillary mentioned, by the way? I think that's significant.) and liberal Dick Gephardt (who just the other day announced that he wants to move the Democratic Party away from Clinton's centrism and toward a more liberal position on social and economic issues). There is the use of the acronym, NAAGB--a not so subtle ref to the NAACP. Even 'successful' greens like Kermit join in and identify with the hardships of being green. I'd say that this tale surely upholds the status quo; or rather encourages the reader to want to roll back change insofar as it legitimates a particular interpretation of the story: the victimization of the ant. Kelley From dcoon@ksu.edu Wed Dec 17 07:31:37 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA14608 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:31:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/mailhub+antispam+tar) with SMTP id IAA13808 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:31:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id IAA05731; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:31:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:31:31 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students International Subject: Government/Capitalism Humor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Along the same line as the insect humor, this is kind of a neo-marxist humourous interpretation of modern day politics/capitalism...enjoy... Would you say that this is kind of a neo-marxist analysis? A little boy came home from school one day and said to his father, "Dad, what can you tell me about politics? I have to learn about it for school tomorrow." The father thought some and said, "OK, son, the best way I can describe politics is to use an analogy. Let's say that I'm capitalism because I'm the breadwinner. Your mother will be government because she controls everything, our maid will be the working class because she works for us, you will be the people because you answer to us, and you baby brother will be the future. Does that help any?" The little boy said, "Well, Dad, I don't know, but I'll think about what you said." Later that night, after everyone had gone to bed, the little boy was woken up by his brother's crying. Upon further investigation, he found a dirty diaper. So, he went down the hall to his parent's bedroom and found his father's side of the bed empty and his mother wouldn't wake up. Then he saw a light on in the guest room down the hall, and when he reached the door, he saw through the crack that his father was in bed with the maid. Because he couldn't do anything else, he turned and went back to bed. The next morning, he said to his father at the breakfast table, "Dad, I think I understand politics much better now." "Excellent, my boy," he answered, "What have you learned?" The little boy thought for a minute and said, "I learned that capitalism is screwing the working class, government is sound asleep ignoring the people, and the future's full of shit." Sincerely, Dave Alan Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 204 Waters Hall Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University http://www.ksu.edu Manhattan, KS 66506 USA ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From conroyt@bu.edu Wed Dec 17 18:00:42 1997 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id SAA19323 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:00:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id TAA145961 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:59:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:59:02 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy Reply-To: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: insects and ideology In-Reply-To: <199712171416.JAA20216@syr.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Kelley Crouse wrote: > > It seems to me that this story is rather too 'pithy'. Very little > is said with regard to the grasshopper and the ant in the orginal > story-- why one is working hard and getting ready for the lean and > cold winter, while the other is enjoying his/herself and mocking the > other's hard work. That is, the story is polysemic, leaving it to > the reader to "fill in" the story, attributing motivations and the > like to the ant and the grasshopper. The joke *is* ideological in > that sense, particularly since the original story clearly upholds the > Puritan work ethic. (Perhaps I missed this, but where did the story > originate? I've heard it before as a child, I think in a book of > fables) What would you call the original story, Tom, if not > ideological? I'm not being confrontational, just curious about how > people define 'ideological' which is a word, as you probably know, > that has entire articles and books devoted to the debates over its > meanings. What I was earlier referring to was the idea of condescension and felt superiority of the haves/elites/upper classes/priviledged groups toward the have-nots/masses/lower classes/dispriviledged groups; I would say that while such perspectives may contain ideological thinking, the perspective itself is not necessarily the thing which we would call the ideology. My take on ideology - as it is informed by Marx - is that it is some sort of justification - either tacit or explicit and official - for "the way things are" (particularly in contradistinction to the way they might ideally be or become). This seems to be more or less your use of ideology as well. I would further argue that an ideology, whether in the Marxian or some other sense, involves a contextual use; i.e., biblical scripture can be rendered ideological when, and only when, it gets invoked for any such ideological use (eg., for asserting inherent differences between men and women). On the other hand, borrowing from Mannheim's classical distinction between "ideology" and "utopia," the very same text can be used as an inspiration for much more overtly emancipatory projects. Mannheim is clearly more of a relativist than is Marx (and of course, sees Marxism as itself another ideology, just to complicate matters - though that is really a separate discussion, I suppose). Hence, because I am not sure about the contextual use of both the fable and the secondary joke version (though I have some strong guesses as to their likely uses), I'm a bit hesitant to call them ideological; however, my guess is that (1.) the fable was used in ways not unlike biblical parables, ie., as condensed, memorable moral lessons; in this particular storyline, the lesson clearly seems to be one of needing to work hard and to plan ahead; the subtext is that if you don't do this, you shouldn't expect anyone to do this on your behalf - ie., you are more or less on your own in life. This subtextual notion - along with the analogical notion that culture is a pure extension of nature (and thus less than fully alterable) can certainly be ideological - particularly in contrast to imaginable alternatives or the realization of the limitations of the ethic of individualism. In fact, it strikes me, in many ways, as being compatible with present day libertarian and laissez-faire thinking. As far as (2.) the joke version, I'm guessing that it was, indeed, intended to express a social, cultural and political resentment against a whole host of things including: progressivism; the welfare state; affirmative action; minority interest groups; the media; the democrats, etc.. In fact, it strikes me as being so partisan that its offensiveness is at least partially offset by the blatantness of its combined prejudices and biases. My sense is that ideology is generally much more subtle than what we are given here. Humor, also, is a subtler matter than it often appears. Again, Mannheim really helps; his distinction between partial and total ideologies would underscore such distinctions as Gingrichian Conservatism (the partial ideology of the right wing interests and fringes) and mainstream middle-of-the-roadism, which, while perhaps agreeing to a slight extent, at certain times, with some of right wing ideology is not nearly the same thing; So, the "joke" in the hands of a Newt Gingrich or Rush Limbaugh follower (or perhaps in the hands of either of these figures themselves) is heard for what it is, ie., as a piece of partsan sarcasm; What I guess that I am getting at - and here I am speaking as a progressive who is offended by the joke - is that the joke - nasty as it is - is so recognizable as a partisan, reactionary construct that it would have less of an ideological thrust than would the fable, in the sense that it is less likely to be an effective bolster of the status-quo; it is, after all reactionary rather than purely conservative (and these are distinct) and is easily rebuked. But like Mannheim, and as a sociologist, my ultimate concern with ideology is a concern with the trickier matter of total ideology, the general problem of the social shaping of (social) thought, or with, as Berger and Luckmann put it, the "objectivation" of our typologies. So to wrap up answer the question - are these materials ideological, I'd say yes, perhaps, and they are so in both a partial and a total sense. However, in either sense, the upshot is different. I'd also like to know more about their exact usages in the context of their use. In fact, the sociology of humor is very much underdeveloped; someone ought to take this case and analyze it much further. > In the American version, the possible multiple interpretations of the > original story are foreclosed. In the original version, a reader > might interpret it as a cautionary tale about the importance of hard > work, planning ahead, deferred gratification--all components of a > secularized Puritan work ethic. In fact, I'd say that most USers > would probably interpret it in this way. Yes, I agree with you, Kelley. I certainly hear it this way. I also agree with much of what you say below. Again, though I do agree with you in seeing that the joke expresses contemporary RW rhetoric (with all sorts of topical references thrown in to make this point crystal clear), I am hesitant to use the term ideology because from either a Marxist or Mannheimian usage, the joke - less so than the underlying fable - is neither so fully shared nor so effective a weapon against the have-nots, at least as far as I can tell. Again, though, both contain elements that can clearly be considered ideological. At the most, it is a Mannheimian partial ideology and is expressive - in its entirety - of the wishes of a statistically small, though not entirely significant, portion of the American populace. But I'm hesitant to ascribe too much power or influence to a tale such as this - though perhaps I'm overlooking something or being simply naive. Tom > The American version > buttresses this interpretation, but the fable 'works' by > reinscribing a neo-conservative ideology in which the > ant is 'victimized' by the grasshopper's 'manipulation' of the media > (read sympathetic liberal establishment) and political figures, such > as Bill and Hilary (why was Hillary mentioned, by the way? I think > that's significant.) and liberal Dick Gephardt (who just the other > day announced that he wants to move the Democratic Party away from > Clinton's centrism and toward a more liberal position on social and > economic issues). There is the use of the acronym, NAAGB--a not so > subtle ref to the NAACP. Even 'successful' greens like Kermit join > in and identify with the hardships of being green. > > I'd say that this tale surely upholds the status quo; or rather > encourages the reader to want to roll back change insofar as it > legitimates a particular interpretation of the story: the > victimization of the ant. > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Dec 18 12:32:33 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA20762 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:32:31 -0700 (MST) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA02599; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:31:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:31:09 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion , Southern Sociological Society Network Subject: job announcement (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/jwc/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:27:33 -0500 From: Chris Ritter To: teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: job announcement >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:00:35 >From: Chris Ritter >Subject: job announcement > >Please include the following ad in your next newsletter. Thank you. > >>ASSISTANT PROFESSOR. The Department of Sociology at Kent State University >>invites application for a tenure-track Assistant Professor position in >>the area of quantitative medical sociology with a research emphasis on >>stratification. We will be seeking a colleague who will contribute to our >>masters and doctoral programs which, in addition to a major focus on the >>sociology of health and health care, emphasizes social inequalities and >>social psychology. Our Ph.D. program is offered jointly with the >>University of Akron which offers additional strengths in family, medical, >>social psychology, and program evaluation and policy. A record of >>publications and/or external funding is important, as is evidence of >>teaching success or strong teaching potential. The successful applicant >>will be expected to teach undergraduate and graduate courses, including >>introduction to sociology. Ph.D. required at time of appointment. >>Facilities include a newly renovated building with well-equipped faculty >>offices, a computer-assisted telephone interviewing laboratory, learning >>technology in the classrooms, and a new university learning technologies >>center. The department has links to a medical school and is located within >>a region rich in diverse health facilities, agencies and populations. >>Appointment is for August, 1998. Applications must be received by January 5, 1998. >>Kent is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer, and encourages women, minorities, >>and disabled persons to apply. To do so, please send 1) a letter >>describing current and projected research and teaching activities, and >>particular competency for the position, 2) your vita, and 3) three letters >>of reference to: >> >>Christian Ritter, Chair Please visit our website at: >>Search Committee http://www.kent.edu/sociology >>Department of Sociology >>Kent State University >>P.O. Box 5190 >>Kent, OH 44242-0001 >> >> >> >>-------------------- >>Ellen Scott >>Dept. of Sociology >>Kent State University >>Kent, Ohio 44242 >>ekscott@kent.edu >>330 672-9475 >> >> > Christian Ritter Department of Sociology Kent State University Kent, Ohio 44242 Phone:(330)672-2790 Fax: (330)672-4724 From mpomeran@acs.ryerson.ca Fri Dec 19 09:14:42 1997 Received: from hopper.acs.ryerson.ca (hopper.acs.ryerson.ca [141.117.101.8]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA28964 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:14:35 -0700 (MST) Received: (from mpomeran@localhost) by hopper.acs.ryerson.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id LAA124246; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:11:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:11:57 -0500 (EST) From: Murray Pomerance To: "L:SOCGRAD" Subject: CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ANNOUNCING AN INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE-- B a n g B a n g , S h o o t S h o o t ! F I L M , T E L E V I S I O N , G U N S Saturday and Sunday, May 16-17, 1998 Ryerson Polytechnic University, Toronto (Conference Co-chairs: Murray Pomerance, John Sakeris) with LESLIE A. FIEDLER (State University of New York at Buffalo) GEORGE GERBNER (The Annenberg School of Communication) ELLEN SEITER (University of California, San Diego) ** REGISTRATION FEE: ** Students and un(der)employed: CA$70.00 | or | US$55.00 ** Faculty and others: CA$90.00 | or | US$70.00 NOTE: Some scholarship registrations are available for students who may require assistance. Consult our web address or send a return email for further information. TO REGISTER, FILL IN THE FORM BELOW AND DO AN EMAIL RETURN. | OR | CONSULT OUR WEB PAGE FOR FULL PARTICULARS OF THE CONFERENCE, HOTEL BOOKING, TRAVEL TO TORONTO, CONFERENCE PROGRAM, AND OTHER DETAILS: http://www.ryerson.ca/mgroup/shoot.html ***** PLEASE REGISTER ME FOR Bang Bang, Shoot Shoot!--Film, Television, Guns: [I am sending my registration fee by hard mail to Murray Pomerance, Dept. of Sociology, A812, Ryerson Polytechnic University, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto ON M5B 2K3.] NAME: MAILING ADDRESS: CITY: PROVINCE/STATE: POSTAL CODE/ZIP: TELEPHONE: FAX: FULL EMAIL ADDRESS: UNIVERSITY AFFILIATION: DEPARTMENT: From xavier.coller@yale.edu Fri Dec 19 11:50:03 1997 Received: from pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA02028 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:50:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from minerva.cis.yale.edu (xacoller@minerva.cis.yale.edu [130.132.143.250]) by pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17621 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xacoller@localhost) by minerva.cis.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA04978 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:49:56 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.cis.yale.edu: xacoller owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:49:56 -0500 (EST) From: Xavier Coller X-Sender: xacoller@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII could somebody tell me how to unsubscribe from the list? Thank you very much Xavier Coller Department of Sociology Yale University New Haven, CT 06520-8265 USA From klaus@protv.ro Sat Dec 20 01:31:16 1997 Received: from protv.ro (protv.interactive.ro [208.222.54.253]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id BAA00481 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:31:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail.protv.ro (gway.protv.ro [193.230.227.2]) by protv.ro (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA26547 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:35:23 +0200 Message-Id: <199712200935.LAA26547@protv.ro> From: "Klaus" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:31:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) > could somebody tell me how to unsubscribe from the list? Hi, Send a message to: "listproc@csf.colorado.edu" (without the quotes) Don't put anything in the Subject field. In the body of the message write: unsubscribe socgrad Hope this will help. Merry Christmas Klaus From xavier.coller@yale.edu Sat Dec 20 09:01:20 1997 Received: from pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.34]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA13538 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:01:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from minerva.cis.yale.edu (xacoller@minerva.cis.yale.edu [130.132.143.250]) by pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25514 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xacoller@localhost) by minerva.cis.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA16505 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:01:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.cis.yale.edu: xacoller owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:01:14 -0500 (EST) From: Xavier Coller X-Sender: xacoller@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <199712200935.LAA26547@protv.ro> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to all of you who sent messages giving directions to unsubscribe from the list. happy holidays Xavier Coller Department of Sociology Yale University New Haven, CT 06520-8265 USA From Chris.Dunn@massey.ac.nz Sun Dec 21 04:47:36 1997 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id EAA15584 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:47:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from ChrisDunn.massey.ac.nz (actually cc-ra4000-1-22) by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:47:06 +1300 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971221114716.0069fbe4@mail.massey.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:47:16 +1300 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Chris Dunn Subject: Help - apology My apologies folks I posted a message "Re Help" accidentally to the list and not the intended recipient. So here's an opportunity to say thanks for the interesting year on Socgrad. I am encouraged and heartened by the number of people on the list who are concerned for the state of the gobe and the suffering and oppression of many many people. New Zealand is becoming an extreme right politicians paradise. Its great to see that there are folk in other parts of the world, especially the USA, who see through the latest face of capitalism. Hope you enjoy Christmas Regards, Chris. Chris Dunn Chris.Dunn@massey.ac.nz MA student home phone 0064-6-357-6460 Sociology Department fax 0064-6-323-3909 Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand From FLH8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Tue Dec 30 07:51:07 1997 Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.19]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA15798 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:51:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with BSMTP id 1968; Tue, 30 Dec 97 08:49:50 CST Received: from tamvm1.tamu.edu (NJE origin FLH8929@TAMVM1) by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5746; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:49:51 -0600 Resent-From: "Frances L. Haynes" Resent-To: "Jan F. Cohen" , socgrad Received: from TAMVM1 (NJE origin SMTP@TAMVM1) by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5616; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:08:34 -0600 Received: from uni00ls.unity.ncsu.edu by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Tue, 30 Dec 97 07:08:03 CST Received: from host by uni00ls.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/US20May96) id IAA22547; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu by uni00ls.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/US20May96) id IAA22520; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntserver3.sensible-net (chris@[208.18.224.2]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id IAA03952 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.224.227]) by ntserver3.sensible-net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA247; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:03:28 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981230075729.0079a100@tryoung.com> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:57:29 -0500 Reply-To: ahs-talk@listproc.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-ahs-talk@listproc.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu Cc: psn@CSF.COLORADO.EDU, social-class@listserv.uic.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.ed, teachsoc@maple.lemoyne.edu Subject: Poems for Progressives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: tr@tryoung.com (Unverified) To All--Post Hasty Pudding etc. This little (oops, long) greeting is Rambling's from Granny Franny. It began as a letter to a Daring Jung Man who is beginning a quest for grad school and the Academic world beyond. So while some of the letter is directed to him, it provides me an opportunity to share in a multidirectional manner. Take what you like and leave the rest. There are some ASIDEs which are intended to clarify info which has previously passed between Jan and I. Howdy, Jan. I left the header info on this, just in case you wish to respond to the list. This is the SocGrad List that I told you about. Like the other list where we have been embroiled in our mutual efforts to dry the tears, dispel the fears, while striving to thrive not merely survive-- This group has a number of "Survivors!" That is those paradoxical people which Bernie Siegel discussed in Love, Medicine and Miracles. There are some names that come quickly to mind: Dan Ryan, Alan Davidson, Lloyd Klein, Laura Miller, Tom Conroy, Morton Ender (who has left our base camp prep league to move to The Show!--oops switched analogies.) And many others. My own favorite East Texan A******, Tim -and yes, I'll tell him I said that--he knows I love his extremist swings of perspective, but he's not bad once you give him the break: "Oh, yeah, he's from Overton, Texas which is a suburb if Tyler! did leave the list in a bit of a huff in his defense of TR. But that's Tim, another one of those hidden in Plainview surprises that Texas A&M has in the world of sociology. These people can help you on your Climb! Up Giants Shoulders or Mountains or stream or following the heartbeat, you have found the vision and pathway of your dream, and now as you seek the grad school which is "Right" for YOU and yes, more important! for Eric--believe me Dawn, Andy, and John Kelly were the primary reasons that I ended up in my own Aggie WonderLand (the too often nightmare, but what I needed)! Those of us who know that the line between The American Dream and the American Nightmare of Daily Living, KNOW that the fine line is a GREAT DIVIDE: a Rift which MUST be Mended (Hmmm, sounds like a good topic for a dissertation! ) (ASIDE: to the list: Yes, I am getting a certain pleasure out of being obvious in Plainview, in tossing about each abstract clue, However, in this cyberspace meet, I'll try to be more concrete! Jan has collected a great deal of data and info regarding social, legal, and economic impact of divorce, child custody, welfare reform, etc. He was geared towards publishing a book titled: The Great Divide: Mending the Rift. However, he began seeing the value of having his work grounded in a stronger understanding of the various methodologies and theoretical perspectives. So this is most probably his dissertation title-THEN the BOOK! ) So in your search for the Next Stepping Stone You join kindred minds, no longer fighting alone. I hereby declare: WHEREAS TR is not so young in age as I, but he is one of us Daring Jung Men... WHEREAS I am not so Jung as thee, but still we know the best is yet to be... WHEREAS thou searchest far and wide to expand the horizon of your already vast vision... WHEREAS my greatest preference would be to capture you and take you away to my own beloved AggieLand, I would be remiss and selfish to prevent you from full access to other possibilities which are beyond your wildest blue yonder dreams... WHEREAS TR has the best interests of his children (students everywhere) whether still formally enrolled in an educationally setting or students of life of which he is A GIANT!... I HEREBY DECLARE: Jan Frederic Cohen would be an awesome asset to ANYBODY's graduate program. S/He was/is/will be a Giant among Giants, with a heart as big as Dallas, with the love of life that the biggest little people find. The impish, fairytale quality of Her/is illusion serve the same purposes for which many of us strive. Best wishes to Jan and all in their Graduate School pursuits. ******* Perhaps this would be a good day to make re-visions on my own VITA. My committee chair is coming out this afternoon to AeroSpacious to visit with Andrei, Luda and I. The view over the lake was just awesome as the sun came up this morning! Right now it is a smooth as glass. Since the leaves have finally fallen completely off the oak tree, the view of the hill across the lake is breathtaking with a golden sun breaking through the swirls of soft billowy clouds and miles high blue sky. Andrei says the thing he will miss most when he gets back to Moscow is the Texas Sky. (Gee, I thought it would be me !) (ASIDE: AeroSpacious is what I call my house at Hilltop Lakes Resort City. It is a take off on the Bible story of Paul visiting in Athens. He went to Aeropagus where "The Athenians and the foreigners did nothing but speak of New Things." So here is to Rerum Novarum in 1998 and the new millenia of which WE ARE THEM and THEY ARE US! The leaders, the thinkers, the New and Not so dead and not so white and not so gender-stereotyped Social Scientists/ Philosophers/Activists of the Fin de Millenium!!! Gig 'em, Aggies Jist mah lil ol' way uh sayin' Peace be with Y'all durin' this Halladay Tahm. And Ah hope yu-uns all had a Kick Butt good 'un. And Most High Priest, Father Young, Forgive me for I know what I am doing: My battle cry for New Year's Day, however, is not so peaceful, but the competition is within the rules of the game and no harm intended. As two outstanding groups of student-athletes whose Brawn of the Bruins meets the Brain of the Aggies (oops, bad Aggie Joke) (Yes, some people think Gig 'em, Aggies means we are saying "Peace on you." but I promise that's not what I mean!) So the battle cry is this: Aggies! Beat the Hell outta UCLA! in the Cotton Bowl. Or tomorrow my Alma Mater: Go Pokes! OSU in the Alamadome against Purdue! Okay, Jan and all of you other non-football fans, just humor the old broad! Seriously, my best to all. I'm looking forward to perusing TR's poetry page! I've always been impressed with his wit, words, wisdom and most important his sense of WONDER! Frances Haynes A TEXAS "Aggie from Muskogee" OKLAHOMA USA Who hopes someday, somewhere, someone will step up and say: I'm proud to know ya! Thanks for the moment when... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- For those of you who like poetry, I've just created a poetry file on my personal home page. go to: http://www.tryoung.com/trspage.html ....for those of you with children...check out the postmodern, politically correct Christmas Stories... More to come as I get proficient with html, up-loading, down-loading and re-loading. and...for those of who more than atheists but less than theists...you might like to check out: Maybe That's What God it... a distinctly postmodern durkheimian understanding of the god concept. and...those of you of my age might like to take a trip down memory lane in a postmodern anti-war prose poem written in anger, love and revenge during Operation Desert Story...it's called: America, The Great Then too, Dragan Milovanovic, Bruce Arrigo and I are creating a Postmodern Criminology Home Page which should be on our domain in a few weeks...Dragan and Bruce are particularly good at pomocrim; I keep things honest with a heavy dose of marxian, critical, feminist and humanist sociology in the articles posted. best ever year for you, TR TR Young 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com