From highflyr@earthlink.net Mon Sep 1 01:10:34 1997 Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id BAA26010 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:10:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cyclonus (1Cust65.max25.atlanta.ga.ms.uu.net [153.35.53.65]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01916 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709010710.AAA01916@denmark.it.earthlink.net> From: "Mark E. Tisdale" To: "Sociology Graduate Students -- International" Subject: Divorce Factors/Causes Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:10:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Hi, I've been sort of "lurking" on this list for awhile now. I'm a grad student at Auburn University majoring in sociology, makes sense, no? Anyway, I'm starting to undertake some preliminary work on my thesis. I'm planning to look at some factors that would predict divorce employing a questionnaire that will ask students questions about their parents. Previous questionnaires of students in the dept. have shown some correlations between rate of divorce and parents who have different political views (as reported by their children). Anyway, so I may be looking at somehting like differing worldviews (politics, religion, etc.). Anyway, right now I'm trying to find sources of literature that might guide me a bit. Can anyone point me to any sources particularly that theorize or pinpoint any factors/causes of divorce?? I'd appreciate any and all help! Thanks, Mark Tisdale From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Mon Sep 1 05:05:08 1997 Received: from smtp2.utexas.edu (smtp2.utexas.edu [128.83.126.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA29833 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 05:05:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 273 invoked from network); 1 Sep 1997 11:05:18 -0000 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (128.83.126.1) by smtp2.utexas.edu with SMTP; 1 Sep 1997 11:05:18 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-121-48.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.221.48]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA09747 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:05:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <340AA137.9C1@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 06:04:23 -0500 From: Bob Woldman MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Divorce Factors/Causes References: <199709010710.AAA01916@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, There are several articles dealing with Religious heterogamy and marital disfunction. Here are a few. Glenn, Norval. "Interreligious marriage in the united states: paterns and recent trends." JOURNAL OF MARRIAGE AND THE FAMILY, 1982. pp.555- 566. Heaton. "Religious homogamy and marital satisfaction reconsidered." JOURNAL OF MARRIAGE AND THE FAMILY. 1984. 729-733. Heaton and Pratt "The effects of religious homogamy on marrital satisfaction and stability." JOURNAL OF FAMILY ISSUES. 11 pp191-207. Lehrer & Chaswick. "Religion as a determinant of marrital stability." DEMOGRAPHY. 1993. 30. 385-404. Wilson & Musick. "Religion and Marital dependency." JOURNAL FOR THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF RELIGION. 1996. 35. 30-40. Hope this helps, Bob -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From TR.Young@uvm.edu Mon Sep 1 06:55:15 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA04472; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:55:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:55:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.23) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.C1A229D0@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 8:55:11 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970901085439.382f4598@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: Labor Day, 1997: An Editorial FROM THE LEFT Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu For millions of American workers, Labor Day, 1997 is just another day of work in which they provide the food, furnishings and clothing we consume along with health care, transport, safety as well as entertainment. For most Americans, Labor Day is a personal time dedicated to family, food, and football. It wasn't always that way. In 1882, when the Carpentars' and Joiners' Union celebrated the first Labor Day, the idea of Peter J. McGuire, labor struggles for decent wages, safe working conditions and some sort of job security had just began. In the hundred years or more of such labor struggles, workers and workers' unions here and in Europe won many, many benefits for themselves and for millions of workers indifferent to class struggle and to class privilege. In 1997, capitalists struggle to reduce wages, cut back on pensions, health care, evade environmental laws, discard safety processes and transfer from full time work to part time and to contract work. In 1997, capitalists are winning the labor struggle. The Democratic Party has transferred its concerns from the working class to the middle class...itself now the target of capitalist efforts to 'rationalize' a firm while destroying a society. Large unions have confined their organizing efforts to the high wage industries. The Church continues to render unto Ceasar, that which is created by the labor of workers, farmers, miners and millers. Marxian social psychology holds that labor is the means by which Homo sapiens realize themselves as species being...as distinctly human beings. By labor, Marx did not mean only wage labor. He meant all kinds of labor from the caring of children to the making of music. That thesis remains valid. Yet, of the adult population in 'advanced' industrial societies, millions are dis- employed--separated from the process by which they can help create both self and society. The means by which to re-unite production and distribution for those so dis-employed are many; First there is the kinship system within which most wealth is transferred, shared and held in common. Then too, there are a great many thrift shops and church stores which gather those goods discarded by the affluent and then re-distribute them to the needy. Since the time of Bismarck, the capitalist State has tried to moderate the worst effects of dis-employment, and death as well as the casting off of workers when they are old or injured. That effort is not trivial; millions of Americans have at one time or another, been on welfare of one kind or another. In 1997, the capitalist state, caught in a fiscal crisis of debt and captured by the Right, slowly reduce the capacity of the State to save capitalism. Crime is not an unimportant means to reunite production and distribution in a thoroughly rationalized labor market. Young men can buy and sell drugs; young women can buy and sell sex; children can steal and the aged can shoplift. Without crime, the American economy would be seriously crippled...crime may be more important now to the underclass than is the state and its 'safety-net.' In all this people still seek pro-social work; still fall in love; still marry and have children whom, at first they love. In all this, the poor still go to church; still sing patriotic songs on the 4th of July; still try to provide for family and friend....still try to constitute themselves as Species being by their labor paid and un-paid. The next 25 or 30 Labor Days are critical to the human project; if the Labor movement can be re-vitalized; can extent its agency from the labor aristocracy to wage labor in general; can transcend divisions of labor and divisions of national boundaries; can join labor struggles with gender struggles; with efforts to gain ethnic dignity; can enjoin the church to this most fundamental task, then once again Labor Day may be worthy of the name. TR Young, Editor FROM THE LEFT TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Sep 1 08:08:11 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA06471 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:08:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id JAA09155; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:08:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA13455; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:08:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:08:05 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: "Mark E. Tisdale" cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Divorce Factors/Causes In-Reply-To: <199709010710.AAA01916@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some good sources that indicate some of the causes of diviorce are: Monthy Vital Statistics Report this shows that regions of the country have diffierent rates of divorce. Cherlin (1978) "Remarige as an incomplete institution" American Journal of SOciology 84:634-650 Cherlin found that a major factor leading to divorce is third fourth and subsuquent mariages have a much higer likelyhood of divorce than 1 or 2 marriages. The US Census says that in the overall population there are more divorced women than men,, (there are more women in the population though) in the overall population. Reiss--Couples who migrate hav less stable marriages Ira Reiss-- Family Systems in America NY: Holt Reinhart and Wilson Lasswell & Lasswell--Mariage and the Family, Wadsworth--has a whole chapter on the causes of divorce reviewing much of the literature Many studies have found higher rates of divorce among professional women because they can support themselves instead of being tied to a "breadwinner" Religous incompatibility has long been a major factor in dicorce, and interfaith marriages have been steadily increasing, See Reiss, Lasswell and Lasswell Other Causes of Divorce cited by Reiss, Lasswell & Lasswll: Family Violence Youung age at marriage extramatrtial affairs, spouse abuse child abuse sibling abuse parental abuse sexual abuse substance abuse children of divorced parents have a much higer divoorce rate themseleves when they grow up Just my 58cents worth... Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From c646827@showme.missouri.edu Mon Sep 1 08:12:28 1997 Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA06752 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:12:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from skynet.sky.net (ip148.kc.sky.net [206.230.165.148]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA64600 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:12:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199709011412.JAA64600@mail.missouri.edu> From: "Brent" To: Subject: Re: Divorce Factors/Causes Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:09:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Hello, There is a book written by Bhrem, that has a lot of good stuff in it dealing with divorce. Sorry, i forgot the name, but it's title deals with family.... this source will also point you to the reasons that people stay together... what you mentioned is good, but also common hobbies is a biggie. It's also an idea that is not commonly held in popular culture. There is a u-shaped relationship with womans' income and divorce rates. This is a big reason for divorce now... female participation in the economy. Along with the growing social acceptance of divorce in our culture. but you will not be looking at such macro changes I guess. There is also a new book out by Cootz "The way we really are" that I have not read, but looks GREAT. It's about families today. good luck! Brent University of Missouri c646827@showme.missouri.edu From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Mon Sep 1 15:22:37 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA17387 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 15:22:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Sep 1997 16:22:38 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:55:31 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Divorce Factors/Causes -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Brent brings up an important point in mentioning the reasons that people stay together. Looking at factors/causes of divorce implies that divorce is the "deviant" situation requiring explanation, whereas one might just as reasonably look to explain why married couples stay together. As Travis Hirschi suggests, the question is not why some people commit "deviant acts" some of the time, but why most people conform most of the time. Just some random thoughts to complicate things a bit David Katz Loyola University Chicago From TR.Young@uvm.edu Tue Sep 2 05:29:30 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA12799; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:29:28 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:29:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.24) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F0EF8DF0@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 7:29:26 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970902072854.344793a6@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Mike Terpstra From: TR Young Subject: Re: From the Left Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu At 02:49 PM 9/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dear TR, >I am impressed by your recent editorial on the >Teachsoc listserve. Forgive my ignorance, >what is the "From the Left?" Is it an online >electronic journal or is it a publication that I >can subscribe to? > >Yours sincerely, >Michael Terpstra, Ph.D. >Unemployed Sociology ? ************** FROM THE LEFT is the official newsletter of the Marxist Section of The ASA. Non-members of MSASA can find it in the Red Feather Archives: www.tryoung.com or in the Home Page of the MSASA: http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marxist-sociology/index.html TR Young, Editor TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From TR.Young@uvm.edu Tue Sep 2 05:58:40 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA13754; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:58:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:58:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.24) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.021ADC70@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 7:58:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970902075800.34477994@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu From: TR Young Subject: Two Questions Cc: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU JB: Thanks for the questions and the kind comment. Below are my response to your two questions: 11:04 AM 9/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hi TR, very nice editorial, but I have two questions: > >1. What is the difference between the working class and the middle >class--are both groups not workers? Are you making reference to Lenin's >labor aristocracy definition? (which he uses to explain the failure of >international communisim). 1. For most of the history of capitalism, privileged workers; those who manage, sell, administer, broker deals and manage the=20 money of the upper bourgeosie have been loyal to capitalism even though they do not own the means of production. Add to these all the professors, doctors, lawyers, and other semi- professionals whose livlihood depends upon making capitalism work and who refresh capitalists to the April Day and one has a pretty good grasp of the 'Middle Class.' And, Yes, I would include the labor aristocracy among those who are favored of capitalism and capitalist firms. For most of the 20th century, these sectors of the working=20 class have set back smugly and reaped the benefits of both capitalism as well as the benefits of the struggles of others. Now...in the effort to maintain domination of the globalized economy, upper management seeks to eliminate/rationalize high- paid functionaries...those in the monopoly sector and those in the State sector not excluding those sociologists who have praised stratification, class inequality and the functionality of capitalism. Down-sizing, automation, out-sourcing, contract work relations, speed-up and shifting of some white collar/middle management=20 functions to the 3rd world help rationalize, i.e., decrease costs and increase profits. >The >>Democratic Party has transferred its concerns from the working >>class to the middle class...itself now the target of capitalist >>efforts to 'rationalize' a firm while destroying a society. > >2. The UPS strike appears to have been a successful major attack against >institutionalized under-employment in the US, and against a formidable >opponent. Does this not suggest that while capitalism may have won some >battles (through de-capitalization of the domestic economy, for example), >it has by no means won the (class) war? I think that now is the time to >use the UPS strikers as a model to end the shameful practice of >underemployment in academe. 2. I would be careful about using the UPS case as exemplar. UPS cannot move it's functions overseas; it cannot automate delivery of= packages, it cannot speed-up its delivery vans, it cannot down-size easily and still expand volume of business. Many capitalists firms can and will desert both the middle class and the USA itself if profits are greater overseas...the tobacco= industry has opted for this strategy...it gathers ever more profits from the 3rd world...as years go by, it will move more and more tobacco=20 agriculture to the 3rd world and to 'friendly' governments...maybe Burma. The fact is that the explosive expansion of the global economy means that the center of capitalism will, once again, move. Over the centuries that center has moved from Venice, to Brussels, to London, to New York and now to Japan...and the half-life of the home base of capitalist wealth. By the middle of the 21st century, most=20 capitalist firms will move their headquarters out of geographichal space and into cyberspace...if you've looked at the www lately, you = =20 will see Home Pages for most of the 2000 transnational firms which now call the West home. TR Young,= Editor FROM THE= LEFT =20 =20 > >>In 1997, capitalists are winning the labor struggle. >>Large unions have confined their organizing efforts to the >>high wage industries. >> TR Young, Editor >> FROM THE LEFT >>TR Young >>The Red Feather Institute >>8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., >> 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 >> Email: tr@tryoung.com >> TR.Young@uvm.edu > >John D. Bandy Ph.D., or >Matilde Bandy Owner-Manager; No Que Know Books >1111 N. Hwy 123 Bypass >Seguin, TX 78155 >Telephone: (210) 372-2723 > > >El respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz. >(Respect for the rights of others is peace.) > --Benito Ju=E1rez > > > > > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From elarsen@erols.com Tue Sep 2 09:56:33 1997 Received: from grace.carlow.edu (grace.carlow.edu [206.181.153.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA23756 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:56:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from libby ([206.181.153.203]) by grace.carlow.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27326 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709021558.LAA27326@grace.carlow.edu> X-Sender: elarsen#pop.erols.com@wingate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: "Elizabeth A. Larsen" Subject: Popular Films Could someone fill me in on the rules for showing popular films in the classroom? For instance, I would like to show the film "Nell" starring Jodi Foster in a Deviant Behavior course. However, I don't want to break any copyright laws or cause the FBI to come after me! What steps do I need to take, if any, in advance of showing such a film? Do I need to ask the permission of the film company? Thanks, Libby Larsen Chatham College, Pittsburgh, PA elarsen@erols.com From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Sep 2 09:59:46 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA24120 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:59:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5089; Tue, 02 Sep 97 11:59:49 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9265; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:59:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 11:58:36 EDT From: danielle Subject: Re: Popular Films To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <199709021558.LAA27326@grace.carlow.edu> Message-Id: <970902.115948.EDT.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am not sure of the copyright issues, but I have been showing films in my class for almost 3 years now, and have had no problems. I think that the problems come when you "charge" to watch them. You can, however, serve free popcorn without worry, I think. :) Danielle at UCONN From valeries@yorku.ca Tue Sep 2 17:33:02 1997 Received: from sunray.ccs.yorku.ca (sunray.ccs.yorku.ca [130.63.236.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA15259 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:33:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (valeries@localhost) by sunray.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id TAA13971 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:32:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sunray.ccs.yorku.ca: valeries owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:32:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "V. Scatamburlo" X-Sender: valeries@sunray.ccs.yorku.ca To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Marxist Section Graduate Symposium (ANNOUNCEMENT) (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:27:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "V. Scatamburlo" To: psn Subject: Marxist Section Graduate Symposium (ANNOUNCEMENT) On behalf of the Marxist Section of the ASA, sociology graduate students are invited to participate in a graduate symposium to be held at next year's ASA meetings in San Francisco, August 21-25, 1998. The symposium is intended to provide a forum exclusively for graduate students who wish to present and discuss their work with other students and faculty members at the ASA. Graduate students working in the areas of Marxist and critical theory, feminism, and critical cultural studies are strongly encouraged to take this opportunity to share their ideas and research with their peers. At this very early juncture, the submission of abstracts is NOT necessary. We would, however, ask those who may be interested in presenting at the symposium to indicate their desire to do so by providing a brief topic/title to one of the persons listed below. This will enable us to both organize papers thematically as the planning process evolves and to register the level of interest in having a symposium dedicated to showcasing and nurturing graduate scholarship. Please direct any tentative titles/topics to either: Glenn W. Muschert Department of Sociology University of Colorado at Boulder, Campus Box 327 Boulder, CO 80309-0327 EMAIL--glenn@sobek.colorado.edu Valerie L. Scatamburlo Department of Sociology York University 4700 Keele St., Vari Hall North York, Ontario, Canada M3J 1P3 EMAIL--valeries@yorku.ca To assist us in planning the symposium, we would ask that you contact one of the persons listed above with your tentative title/topic by October 1, 1997. Information concerning deadlines for submitting abstracts, etc. will be made available at a later date. Please feel free to forward this message to any other appropriate lists. From TR.Young@uvm.edu Wed Sep 3 07:06:20 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA09296 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:06:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:06:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.11) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.A311CC60@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 9:06:17 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970903090545.2cefda12@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: Re: Popular Films Libby: 'tis alright to show the flick if you don't charge admission; if you use it for authentically scholarly reasons and if you or your university has paid a fee for use...I define the rental fee I pay to video stores as sufficient to the purpose. And, if your library has a copy...you're home free. 'Tenny rate, not to worry, unless you make copies and sell them to students for personal profit. TR PS: if you want worksheets on some of the more popular flicks, let me know and I'll send you some for: Boyz'ntheHood My Fair Lady Memphis Belle Wizard of Oz Breakfast Club Beverly Hills Cops ...and a few more The films are helpful to clarify/embody a great many terms in sociology; you can get an idea of the terms for which I use the films on my 'Teaching Sociology Page: http://www.tryoung.com/teachsoc/socterms.htm Have fun...teach a lot. TR ****** At 11:58 AM 9/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >Could someone fill me in on the rules for showing popular films in the >classroom? For instance, I would like to show the film "Nell" starring >Jodi Foster in a Deviant Behavior course. However, I don't want to break >any copyright laws or cause the FBI to come after me! > >What steps do I need to take, if any, in advance of showing such a film? Do I >need to ask the permission of the film company? > >Thanks, >Libby Larsen >Chatham College, Pittsburgh, PA >elarsen@erols.com > > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From TR.Young@uvm.edu Wed Sep 3 07:21:06 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA09615 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:21:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:21:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.11) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.B3857590@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 9:21:03 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970903092031.381799fe@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: Marxist Section Graduate Symposium (ANNOUNCEMENT) >On behalf of the Marxist Section of the ASA, sociology graduate students >are invited to participate in a graduate symposium to be held at next >year's ASA meetings in San Francisco, August 21-25, 1998. The symposium >is intended to provide a forum exclusively for graduate students who wish >to present and discuss their work with other students and faculty members >at the ASA. Graduate students working in the areas of Marxist and >critical theory, feminism, and critical cultural studies are strongly >encouraged to take this opportunity to share their ideas and research with >their peers. > >At this very early juncture, the submission of abstracts is NOT necessary. >We would, however, ask those who may be interested in presenting at the >symposium to indicate their desire to do so by providing a brief >topic/title to one of the persons listed below. This will enable us to >both organize papers thematically as the planning process evolves and to >register the level of interest in having a symposium dedicated to >showcasing and nurturing graduate scholarship. > >Please direct any tentative titles/topics to either: > >Glenn W. Muschert >Department of Sociology >University of Colorado at Boulder, Campus Box 327 >Boulder, CO 80309-0327 >EMAIL--glenn@sobek.colorado.edu > >Valerie L. Scatamburlo >Department of Sociology >York University >4700 Keele St., Vari Hall >North York, Ontario, Canada M3J 1P3 >EMAIL--valeries@yorku.ca > >To assist us in planning the symposium, we would ask that you contact one >of the persons listed above with your tentative title/topic by October 1, >1997. Information concerning deadlines for submitting abstracts, etc. >will be made available at a later date. > >Please feel free to forward this message to any other appropriate lists. > > > > > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Sep 3 09:17:53 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA16530 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:17:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id LAA20107; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:16:39 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:16:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Position Announcement (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:13:16 EDT From: Nancy L. Strang To: Multiple recipients of list RURSOC-L Subject: Position Announcement Thanks to Rick Maurer for the following employment opportunity announcement. Nancy Strang ******** POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT Assistant Professor University of Kentucky Department of Sociology College of Agriculture The University of Kentucky, Department of Sociology, Rural Sociology Program in the College of Agriculture, is seeking candidates for an Assistant Professor. The position is a tenure-track, 12-month appointment and is open as of January 1, 1998. Candidates must have a completed Ph.D. in rural sociology or sociology and have a substantive research focus on rural/community development or sociology of agro-food systems. A strong interest in public policy applications is desired. The faculty member in this position will also be expected to teach two courses per year. The Rural Sociology Program has strong emphasis on multidisciplinary research, instruction, and extension. Faculty in the Rural Sociology Program also participate in the instruction (undergraduate and graduate), research, and service programs of the larger Department of Sociology, of which they are integral members. Review of candidates will begin on October 1, 1997. Interested candidates should send a letter of interest, a curriculum vitae, a writing sample, and three letters of reference to: Richard C. Maurer Associate Chair Department of Sociology 500 Garrigus Building University of Kentucky Lexington, KY 40546-0215 Phone: (606)257-7582 Fax: (606)257-1164 E-mail: rmaurer@pop.uky.edu EEO Coordinator: Room C-3, Agricultural Science Building North, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY 40546-0091. From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Wed Sep 3 10:42:38 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id KAA20301 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 03 Sep 1997 11:42:35 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 00:00:54 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Popular Films -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Showing a film in the classroom falls under the "Fair Use" provision of the US Copyright Law, which states that the use of a copyrighted work for "teaching. . . , scholarship, or research, is not an infingement of copyright" (Title 17 US Code, Section 107) In other words, don't worry about it. David Katz Loyola Universtiy Chicago From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 11:55:42 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA24176 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 11:55:41 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:55:28 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA873335258; Wed, 03 Sep 97 18:47:55 GMT Date: Wed, 03 Sep 97 18:47:55 GMT Message-Id: <9708038733.AA873335258@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Popular Films -Reply Can you show anything at all? I mean can you show every thing you would ever like to show? frisky. (LSE). ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Popular Films -Reply Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/03/97 17:43 Showing a film in the classroom falls under the "Fair Use" provision of the US Copyright Law, which states that the use of a copyrighted work for "teaching. . . , scholarship, or research, is not an infingement of copyright" (Title 17 US Code, Section 107) In other words, don't worry about it. David Katz Loyola Universtiy Chicago From allan@sociology.net Thu Sep 4 02:13:17 1997 Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id CAA26379 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 02:13:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alterdial.UU.NET by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) id QQdfnc01080; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sophie.allan.org by alterdial.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: sophie.allan.org [208.210.72.2]) id QQdfnc00922; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: To: From: The Sociology Corner Subject: Re[2]: Popular Films -Reply In-Reply-To: <9708038733.AA873335258@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> References: <9708038733.AA873335258@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As long as it falls within the realm of acceptability for your school/departmnet. It should be noted that so far the posters seem to be invoking United States' laws. The UK may be different, can anyone speak authoritatively on the differences (if any?) between copyright laws in the US and UK? allan On Wed, 03 Sep 97 18:47:55 GMT M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk was captured by aliens, probed, and forced to write: > Can you show anything at all? I mean can you show every > thing you would ever like to show? > > frisky. > (LSE). > > ____________________________________________________ allan@sociology.net http://sophie.allan.org http://www.sociology.net/newsgroup {insert really cute saying here...I'm all out of ideas} From TR.Young@uvm.edu Sun Sep 7 05:45:54 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA03626 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:45:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:45:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.24) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.10204270@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; 7 Sep 1997 7:45:51 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970907074519.362f66cc@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wwhite@jaguar1.usouthal.edu From: TR Young Subject: When Beggars Die... Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Bill: most of the posts on PSN are not so much about Diana Spencer/Winsor but about the social sources of such grief...I share your personal reaction about all the unmourned deaths of poor women, good in their own life, lost to the children who need them, lost to the human project ....and I would prefer to respect her/their privacy, but as social psychologists/cultural marxists, critical theorists, we need to think, collectively, about this most unusual outpouring of public/social grief. The emancipatory payoff from such analysis is, as yet, unclear...but between us, those of us on PSN, AHS, and elsewhere, we should be able to reflect upon this series of events, get a fairly good reading on them, and integrate them into our theory, our teaching and our praxis. As Shakespeare said in his Julius Caesar: When beggars die, there are no comets seen The heavens themselves blaze forth the death of princes... But Shakespeare was not celebrating royalty...indeed, he was poet to the collapse of feudality in his plays about royalty...which among them was noble and admire- able??? Rather he was celebrating the new age of enlightment, modern science and the conquest of nature by Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Galileo and the advent of de novum organun of Bacon...his effort to replace celebrity with science is best seen in his last play, The Tempest, in which both religion [Setebos] and royalty [What cares these roarers of the name of King?]...and in praise of a new knowledge process [my library is dukedom enough]... ....as to those who mourned the death of royalty, he said, again, that '..when they will not lay out a doit for the lame beggar, they will lay out ten to see a dead indian.' When she died, Princess Diana paid all debts...let us leave her to ancient night and go on to help emancipate all the Dianas to come from such as they and such as we. TR Young Perhaps, if we do our job, our work will be a more lasting, more fitting tribute to Princess Diana and to mothers yet unborn than all the stones and bones she leaves behind. TR ********** t 07:56 PM 9/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >I'm sorry, but I've had enough of this Di stuff, and some of the >generalizations about her "loss." > >There are other children who lose their mothers at a very early age in >this world, yet we do not see any national nor international grieving for >them. I can have only so much sympathy for the "princes" and the >"royals" and anyone else in that social class. I guarantee you this. >Willy and Hank will have all the comfort money can buy to deal with >this "traumatic" event. For many children living in poverty, the same >cannot be said. My feelings are for those children who are lost in the >society, and we can sympathize with this event all we want, and we can >all say "oh, how terrible for the children," and we can feel "pain" >because of the children, but if societies cared about children, they >would be doing more than paying lip service to the issues that surround >children in these many capitalist societies. > >I have viewed with amusement the call to examine this event >sociologically as it relates to how the media frames it. Perhaps I am a >bit naive, but should we as "progressive" and/or critical sociologists >already "know" how this issue will be framed? I have not tried to >examine the issue intellectually because, frankly, I think there are >better ways to focus our intellectual skills. > >I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for the everyday lives (and losses) of >the elite and the wealthy. Sure, Di used her "station" to encourage >certain attention on some social issues, but was she willing to part >with her wealth to see some real solutions to these problems? Of course, >my feelings could change if the "royals" willed the entirety of Di's >estate (estimated at $60 million) to the poor in Great Britain. > >Just my two cents. > >Bill Sakamoto White >"Primero dejar de ser, que dejar de ser revolucionario" > > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From dcoon@ksu.edu Sun Sep 7 08:13:48 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA06730 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 08:13:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cbs (dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id JAA09181 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:13:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA06449; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:13:43 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:13:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: When Beggars Die... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970907074519.362f66cc@pop.uvm.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was just sharing similar sentiments with my roomate the other day. Hundreds of thousands of women die everyday, and many ofthem have given all or most of what they had to others, wether that be to their husbands or children or whatever, but you would never know this from the media coverage. I don't dismiss Di's contributions, but this 24 hour barrage of media coverage has been rediculous. Why as coverage of Mother Theresa's (sp?) death overshadowed by Lady Di? Probably becuase Mother Theresa, arguably much more of a humanitarian, is old and poor and gave all she had, Lady Di was young and attractive and retained much of her wealth. Again, I don't want to dismiss Diana's ciontributions, she did a lot of stuff that was very good and well intentioned, but I am sick of hearing abnout Di, that is all that has been in the news! hy? Because stories of the untimely death of a fairy tale princess sell more newspapers and airtime than storeis about some old nun in Calcutta. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From James.Chivers@Colorado.EDU Sun Sep 7 15:11:50 1997 Received: from ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ucsu.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.83]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA19809 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:11:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (chivers@localhost) by ucsu.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) with SMTP id PAA22544; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:10:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:10:39 -0600 (MDT) From: CHIVERS JAMES FARREL To: "Dave Alan Coon (:" cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: When Beggars Die... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When famous people die the world morns. Who really cares about third world beggars anyway? Who on this list has donated money or time to help out the poor bastards of this planet. How many people on this list have just purchase a latte or mocha? People make choices everyday to ignore problems of the poor. Who out there really gives a damn about poverty, injustice, and war? Why do I own a computer that cost 8 times the annual income of the average Bolivian? Because I am a greedy fu*k, just like the rest of most Americans. When push comes to shove, I looks like I don't really care too much (not enough to significantly modify my behavior or consumption)... how about you? Lady Di's death is noted because people want to be involved in whatver perverted way they can with celebrities. Jim Chivers (303) 448-1742 From R.McManus@massey.ac.nz Sun Sep 7 16:25:39 1997 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA21279 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:25:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ssf-pc16 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:25:04 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970908102453.24a7541a@mail.massey.ac.nz> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 10:24:53 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Ruth McManus Subject: Re: When Beggars Die... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970907074519.362f66cc@pop.uvm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Being an emmigrant Scot in NZ - anti-royalist and I must admit not too fussed for 'the english' I was surprised by the impact D's death had on me. In my mind I associate her as a fantasy antithisis to 'the thatcher years' - for teenagers in Scotland, and the North of england and Wales and N Ireland for that matter 'thatcher' has had a profound effect on our identity (unemployable louts who merely get in the way of those 'getting on their bikes' to make their lives work). D was a symbol of the mythical possibilities open to members of the culture. Although she was an indulgent fantasy for us it reaffirmed our belief that dreams do come true - although underneath it all that we were excluded from this dream even in her death. Watching the funeral (despite myself) I saw it as a complete affirmation of the ENGLISH identity (ha! england's rose) and did anybody hear the lone piper coming from the park as the funeral cortege ambled past? It depicts the relationship well. A great sense of exclusion and usurption - Frank Parkin would love it. Our 'fantasy's funeral' very clearly demarcates the lines between north and south. And told us yet again that Britain is England. At 05:45 07/09/97 -0600, you wrote: >Bill: most of the posts on PSN are not so much >about Diana Spencer/Winsor but about the social >sources of such grief...I share your personal >reaction about all the unmourned deaths of poor >women, good in their own life, lost to the >children who need them, lost to the human project >...and I would prefer to respect her/their >privacy, but as social psychologists/cultural >marxists, critical theorists, we need to think, >collectively, about this most unusual outpouring >of public/social grief. > >The emancipatory payoff from such analysis is, as >yet, unclear...but between us, those of us on PSN, >AHS, and elsewhere, we should be able to reflect >upon this series of events, get a fairly good >reading on them, and integrate them into our theory, >our teaching and our praxis. > >As Shakespeare said in his Julius Caesar: > > When beggars die, there are no comets seen > The heavens themselves blaze forth the > death of princes... > >But Shakespeare was not celebrating royalty...indeed, >he was poet to the collapse of feudality in his plays >about royalty...which among them was noble and admire- >able??? > >Rather he was celebrating the new age of enlightment, >modern science and the conquest of nature by Copernicus, >Tycho Brahe, Galileo and the advent of de novum organun >of Bacon...his effort to replace celebrity with science is >best seen in his last play, The Tempest, in which both >religion [Setebos] and royalty [What cares these roarers >of the name of King?]...and in praise of a new knowledge >process [my library is dukedom enough]... > >...as to those who mourned the death of royalty, he said, >again, that '..when they will not lay out a doit for the > lame beggar, they will lay out ten to see > a dead indian.' > >When she died, Princess Diana paid all debts...let us leave >her to ancient night and go on to help emancipate all the >Dianas to come from such as they and such as we. > > TR Young > > > >Perhaps, if we do our job, our work will be a more >lasting, more fitting tribute to Princess Diana >and to mothers yet unborn than all the stones and >bones she leaves behind. > > TR > > ********** >t 07:56 PM 9/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >>I'm sorry, but I've had enough of this Di stuff, and some of the >>generalizations about her "loss." >> >>There are other children who lose their mothers at a very early age in >>this world, yet we do not see any national nor international grieving for >>them. I can have only so much sympathy for the "princes" and the >>"royals" and anyone else in that social class. I guarantee you this. >>Willy and Hank will have all the comfort money can buy to deal with >>this "traumatic" event. For many children living in poverty, the same >>cannot be said. My feelings are for those children who are lost in the >>society, and we can sympathize with this event all we want, and we can >>all say "oh, how terrible for the children," and we can feel "pain" >>because of the children, but if societies cared about children, they >>would be doing more than paying lip service to the issues that surround >>children in these many capitalist societies. >> >>I have viewed with amusement the call to examine this event >>sociologically as it relates to how the media frames it. Perhaps I am a >>bit naive, but should we as "progressive" and/or critical sociologists >>already "know" how this issue will be framed? I have not tried to >>examine the issue intellectually because, frankly, I think there are >>better ways to focus our intellectual skills. >> >>I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for the everyday lives (and losses) of >>the elite and the wealthy. Sure, Di used her "station" to encourage >>certain attention on some social issues, but was she willing to part >>with her wealth to see some real solutions to these problems? Of course, >>my feelings could change if the "royals" willed the entirety of Di's >>estate (estimated at $60 million) to the poor in Great Britain. >> >>Just my two cents. >> >>Bill Sakamoto White >>"Primero dejar de ser, que dejar de ser revolucionario" >> >> >> >TR Young >The Red Feather Institute >8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., > 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 > Email: tr@tryoung.com > TR.Young@uvm.edu > > > R. McManus Dept. of Sociology, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand. fax:06 350 5627 e-mail: rmcmanus@massey.ac.nz From d.king@uws.edu.au Sun Sep 7 17:42:43 1997 Received: from ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU [137.154.72.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA24347 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:42:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from D-KING.macarthur.uws.edu.au ([137.154.74.59]) by ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA54971 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:39:37 +1100 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:39:37 +1100 Message-Id: <199709072239.JAA54971@ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU> X-Sender: a9300347@ariel.macarthur.uws.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: d.king@uws.edu.au (Denise King) Subject: re: when beggars die >I think that the death of Di challenges our belief in our own mortality. If >someone so rich and famous can die ignominously in a car accident, what hope >is there for the rest of us. I always feel devastated when someone young >dies suddenly and there is nothing more sobering than seeing those crosses >at the roadside to mark an accident death. Although there is a lot of hype >surrounding Di's celebrity status if truth be known I think we are all >feeling a little shaky and vulnerable. It seems our grip on life is more >tenuous than we thought. >Denise > > > > Denise King, PhD student, Sociology President, Macarthur Association of Postgraduate Students Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences University of Western Sydney, Macarthur Po Box 555 Campbelltown NSW 2560 Ph: 046- 203 142 Fax: 046- 285 385 Find me at Campbelltown FASS Building 5! **************************************************************** Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor. Elie Wiesel, 1986, Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech *************************************************************** From rcb@uclink.berkeley.edu Sun Sep 7 23:20:30 1997 Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id XAA04305 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:20:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uclink.berkeley.edu (uclink.berkeley.edu [128.32.155.3]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA11111 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rcb@localhost) by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA28232 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:17:01 -0700 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert C Bulman Reply-To: Robert C Bulman To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: When Beggars Die... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "If men (sic) define situations as real, they are real in their consequences." --W.I. Thomas David, I find it remarkable that your signature includes a paraphrase of this quote and yet you dismiss the attention being paid to the death of Princess Diana as media exploitation. I don't disagree that tragedies befall worthy people of less fame and fortune than Diana every day. Nevertheless, Diana's death has struck a real chord in people's imaginations around the globe. In other words, people have defined her death as being more significant than others and therefore it is more significant. And while the media attention has been excessive, I do not believe it is a media construction. Her death has been very meaningful in reality because people have attributed great meaning to it. It may be because we all felt we "knew" Diana. It may be because she died such an untimely, violent, and needless death. It may be that her death has triggered an existential contemplation in many of us. Whatever the reason, her death has touched millions of people deeply. That emotion is real and worthy of our respect as social scientists. Robert From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Sep 8 16:30:39 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA17561 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:30:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9393; Mon, 08 Sep 97 18:30:43 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5785; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:30:44 -0400 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 18:26:11 EDT From: danielle Subject: Re: When Beggars Die... To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <970908.183043.EDT.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am a little late on the Diana discussion, but I wanted to add my two cents here because it has profoundly effected and sadened me, and I am one of those taken very much by surprise by my reaction. I suspect there is a little voyeurism in all of this, but it is also terrible when *anyone* dies, and she just happened to be someone who came into our lives through pictures and {possibly} silly stories. There was something real about her to me. The monarchy has always been an untouchable, and she was not at all untouchable. She was as normal as an elite can get (in my opinion). She did all the things that we do (or some of us/them) -- cried, laughed, lied, told the truth, became a good parent (one of the only things that there seems to be some consensus on), blah, blah, blah. I understand the cynicism of many because she was a media hound to some degree yet ran from the media at the same time. But I truly believe that she "spoke" to something in many of us. I know a couple of young women who were moved to get help with their eating disorders when she confessed hers. So if nothing else, she may have helped to save the lives of two people I love dearly. For that I will always thank her. Danielle at UCONN From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Tue Sep 9 06:13:52 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA09523 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:13:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id IAA14536; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:12:39 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:12:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Call for Papers (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:57:17 -0400 From: Edgar W. Mills To: ESSOC-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Subject: Call for Papers (fwd) Here's an interesting call for papers.... Ted Mills * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Edgar W. (Ted) Mills, Executive Officer 716 645 3665 Eastern Sociological Society (716 645 3934 Fax) Dept. of Sociology, 402 Park Hall SUNY-Buffalo, Box 604140 Buffalo, NY 14260-4140 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:23:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Allan L. McCutcheon" To: asarel@umbsky.cc.umb.edu Subject: Call for Papers CALL FOR PAPERS on the Sociology of Religion The Sociology of Religion session for the 1998 Midwest Sociological Society is seeking papers for the April 2-5 meeting in the Kansas City Hyatt Regency Crown Center. Papers on all aspects of the the field are sought. Titles and extended abstracts (2-3 pages) should be sent to: Allan McCutcheon Department of Sociology 723 Oldfather Hall University of Nebraska-Lincoln Lincoln, NE 68588-0324 The required abstracts should be sent by October 1. Please note that completed papers will also be accepted. From TR.Young@uvm.edu Wed Sep 10 10:06:41 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id KAA01369; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:06:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:06:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.18) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.E6CD8060@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 7:41:08 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970910074036.383fd322@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: The Cowardly Lion Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU L. Frank Baum, in his populist tale of Octospiders, Hammerheads and Munchkins created the Cowardly Lion as a bully who would 'roar and rant' as smaller creatures such as Toto while failing to take the field against the 'mal- factors of great wealth' as Vachel Lindsey put it. My good colleague, Rodney Coates, has reminded us that we too, rant and roar at those who try to repair the harm done to the wretched refuse of capitalist relations of production; he cites several passages from the writings of Mother Theresa which together make it difficult to see her as an apologist for capitalism...bitter passages which condemn those of us who live comfortable lives and scorn those who try to meliorate the worse effects of racism, of gender violence, of police violence and of the terrible indifference to the human project embodied in mindless and soul-less market economies might want to remind them- selves that the class enemy is not particular persons; least of all those good and gentle nuns and nurses who reach their hand to shelter the child and the tortured victims of oppression. 'now..which marxist, progressive, or so called radical.. has decided to take their marxism, progressiveness and radicalness..to the poor..live among them..which will leave their comfortable capitalist mandated/created institutions..and help the poor while living among them ...let me see the hands..damn the hands ..let me see the resignations.....oh hell..what's the use... down with such slime...' For my part, I must accept the criticism of Mother Theresa; rather than scorn such as she, such as we might better join the rest of the world in our admiration for her good work... her ability to put aside things wealth and give the world the larger riches inspired by a surpassing love for her god. We sit, too many of us, in our safe and protected offices while priests, nuns and ministers march against racism, against wars of capitalist domination, against despoilation of the good earth, against nuclear contamination of air and water...for the kind of social justice embodied in liberation Theology. Good work, Rodney, TR Young TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Sep 10 16:00:10 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA25053 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:00:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INHIHTZ22O99DJFM@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:55:33 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INHI7M4MAC99DJJP@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id RAA01073 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:39:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:39:34 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: The Cowardly Lion To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709102139.RAA01073@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Claiming Mother Theresa as a liberation theologist is an outrageous leap. She represented the most conservative brand of catholicism. From MMAUME@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU Wed Sep 10 16:12:43 1997 Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu [130.39.128.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA25397 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:12:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU by LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0008; Wed, 10 Sep 97 17:12:27 CDT Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (NJE origin MMAUME@LSUVM) by LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6780; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:12:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 17:04:03 CDT From: "Michael O. Maume" Subject: Help with Marx To: Recipients of list SOCGRAD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <970910.171226.CDT.MMAUME@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> I'm guest-lecturing next week on Marx's theory of history in an undergrad soc theory course. Can anyone point me toward a useful secondary source that provides a succinct summary of the theory? I'd like to compare the notes I have (taken mainly from Marx's writings) with something else. Responses either to me or the list would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Mike Maume ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael O. Maume Voice: 504-388-1645 Doctoral Candidate Fax: 504-388-5102 Department of Sociology Email: mmaume@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu 126 Stubbs Hall Louisiana State University Baton Rouge, LA 70803 From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Sep 10 16:46:30 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA27070 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:46:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INHK9X660W9BVD2R@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:45:47 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INHK8W73FM99DKV9@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA23239 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:37:53 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:37:53 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Help with Marx To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709102237.SAA23239@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I'm guest-lecturing next week on Marx's theory of history in an undergrad >soc theory course. Can anyone point me toward a useful secondary source >that provides a succinct summary of the theory? I'd like to compare the notes >I have (taken mainly from Marx's writings) with something else. I have a very good edited collection called "Classic Disputes In Sociology", eds. RJ Anderson, JA Hughes, and WW Sharrock. Chapter One, "The Great Transition" by Dave Francis should be exactly what you're looking for, and it also sets Marx's version in the context of the general conversation on the topic. From jwren@voyager.co.nz Wed Sep 10 17:14:34 1997 Received: from host02.net.voyager.co.nz (host02.net.voyager.co.nz [203.21.30.125]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA28542 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (ts1p31.net.wellington.voyager.co.nz [203.21.27.39]) by host02.net.voyager.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA21106 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:14:24 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199709102314.LAA21106@host02.net.voyager.co.nz> From: "John Wren" To: Subject: Re: Help with Marx Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:12:49 +1100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > From: Michael O. Maume > I'm guest-lecturing next week on Marx's theory of history in an undergrad > soc theory course. Can anyone point me toward a useful secondary source > that provides a succinct summary of the theory? I'd like to compare the notes > I have (taken mainly from Marx's writings) with something else. I would highly recommend having a look at: Lloyd, C. (1986). Explanation in Social History. Cambridge: Basil Blackwell. Yours John Wren Ph.D. student, Dept Sociology, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand. Email: jwren@voyager.co.nz From jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu Wed Sep 10 17:33:53 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id RAA29363 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:33:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709102333.RAA29363@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from s02p09.ppp.uconn.edu by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 10 Sep 97 19:33:59 EDT From: "Jack B. Monpas-Huber" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:36:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help with Marx Reply-to: jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) The other suggestions sound excellent. I would also recommend _Capitalism and Modern Social Theory_, by Anthony Giddens, in my opinion a very useful reference tool. Good luck! JACK B. MONPAS-HUBER Doctoral Candidate, Dept. of Sociology University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269-2068 (860) 486-4422 or 486-4073 jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu or JHuber1069@aol.com From wisner@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep 11 00:04:06 1997 Received: from batch3.csd.uwm.edu (batch3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.226]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id AAA11576 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:04:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (wisner@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.169.2]) by batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id BAA15815 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:04:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (wisner@localhost) by alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id BAA05080 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:04:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:04:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Sharon Kay Wisner To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Racial experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am doing a class on racial issues in America. The Profeessor I worked for suggested using an in class exercise based on Hacker's "Two Nations" You give the senerio that a castropy has caused sick colros to change whites now have dark skin and dark skinned persons are now white. You ask the class to determine what monetary values to be placed as compensation for their dilemia.- Has anyone ever use this type of excercise and what were the results? ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ Department of Sociology University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Sharon Wisner Bolton 711 Office Hours:Monday 10:30-11:30 Wednesday 1:00-2:00 or by appointment 229-4598 wisner@csd.uwm.edu HomePage: http://www.csd.uwm.edu/~wisner ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ From wisner@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep 11 00:18:23 1997 Received: from batch3.csd.uwm.edu (batch3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.226]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id AAA11819 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:18:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (wisner@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.202]) by batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id BAA19453 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:18:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (wisner@localhost) by alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id BAA18202 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:18:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:18:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Sharon Kay Wisner Reply-To: Sharon Kay Wisner To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Racial experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am doing a class on racial issues in America. The Prof. I worked for suggested using an in class exercise based on Hacker's "Two Nations" You give this story: a catastrophe has caused a sickness in which skin colors change- whites now have dark skin and dark skinned persons are now white. You ask the class to determine what monetary values to be placed as compensation for their dilemma.- Has anyone ever use this type of exercise and what were the results? ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ Department of Sociology University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Sharon Wisner Bolton 711 Office Hours:Monday 10:30-11:30 Wednesday 1:00-2:00 or by appointment 229-4598 wisner@csd.uwm.edu HomePage: http://www.csd.uwm.edu/~wisner ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ From washbukr@unm.edu Thu Sep 11 10:31:07 1997 Received: from musca.unm.edu (musca.unm.edu [129.24.57.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id KAA03631 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:31:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost by musca.unm.edu via sendmail with smtp id for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:31:05 -0600 (MDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #6 built 1996-Jul-22) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:31:05 -0600 (MDT) From: Karen Washburn To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Racial experiences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Sharon Kay Wisner wrote: > I am doing a class on racial issues in America. The Profeessor I worked > for suggested using an in class exercise based on Hacker's "Two Nations" > You give the senerio that a castropy has caused sick colros to change > whites now have dark skin and dark skinned persons are now white. You ask > the class to determine what monetary values to be placed as compensation > for their dilemia.- Has anyone ever use this type of excercise and what > were the results? > When I was an undergraduate, I thought this exercise was terrific for our class. We had wonderful discussion groups to answer questions like yours. I would highly recommend you use this exercise. Karen Washburn Department of Sociology University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87109 From clevy@earthling.net Thu Sep 11 11:11:44 1997 Received: from ren.globecomm.net (ren.globecomm.net [207.51.48.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA06616 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:11:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ns.pe.net.pe.net (riv02ppp27.pe.net [205.139.56.186]) by ren.globecomm.net (8.8.7/8.8.0) with ESMTP id NAA02205 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34182556.2B50AF6@earthling.net> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:07:34 -0700 From: "Charles S. Levy" Reply-To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sociology Graduate Students Subject: Marriage and Family X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't know where to begin. Thanks Much. Charles Levy -- http://wizard.ucr.edu/~clevy http://wizard.ucr.edu/praxis From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Thu Sep 11 11:26:56 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA08136 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:26:49 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:26:35 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874024734; Thu, 11 Sep 97 21:16:57 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 21:16:57 GMT Message-Id: <9708118740.AA874024734@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Charles, Start from the Bible, that book has never been wrong! Better still see any seasoned reverend minister who is also a sociologist. He/she could point you towards some very useful balanced literature and perspectives. Anyone in cyberspace who fits this category can help. Anyone out there? Own up please. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Marriage and Family Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/11/97 18:09 I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't know where to begin. Thanks Much. Charles Levy -- http://wizard.ucr.edu/~clevy http://wizard.ucr.edu/praxis From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Thu Sep 11 11:59:45 1997 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.49.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA09909 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:59:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from myhost.csuohio.edu (gradstud1.asic.csuohio.edu [137.148.25.41]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA05830 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:59:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:59:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199709111759.NAA05830@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re: Marriage and Family At 10:07 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have >absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please >help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't >know where to begin. Thanks Much. Hi Charles, I know of a couple of textbooks that are fairly good, but I don't have the names of the authors with me at the moment. I will email you the reference for that tomorrow. However, there is an excellent book that gives the pattern of marriage and divorce rates over time. It is titled _Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage_ and it is written by Andrew J. Cherlin (1992). It was used in my graduate marriage and family class. I have also stumbled across a web site that may give you some usefull information. You can find it at Http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/Roland. The page is called the "Asphalt Philosopher" and it was designed by Roland Johnson, a marriage and family sociologist. He has essays about marriage and family issues as well as postmodernism for those who are interested. In line with the last post on this subject, he was also a minister at one time. Good luck with your class, Matt Hoover ______________________________________________________________________ Matthew Hoover "two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu took the one less traveled by, and that Department of Sociology has made all the difference" Cleveland State University (216) 523-7177 Robert Frost Office RT 1722 _______________________________________________________________________ From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Thu Sep 11 12:21:08 1997 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA11422 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:21:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cats-po-1 (root@cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id LAA04411 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu by cats-po-1 (8.6.13/4.8) id LAA09073; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:21:03 -0700 Message-ID: <32370297.A13FB822@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:19:04 -0700 From: Christian Harlow Reply-To: harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family References: <9708118740.AA874024734@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope the following is a joke if it is HA AH AH. If not let me know and I'll be more then happy to educate you as to just how *WRONG* the bible is on a number of issues including marriage. Best, Christian M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Charles, > > Start from the Bible, that book has never been wrong! Better > still see any seasoned reverend minister who is also a > sociologist. He/she could point you towards some very useful > balanced literature and perspectives. Anyone in cyberspace > who fits this category can help. Anyone out there? Own up > please. > > cheers, > frisky. > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Marriage and Family > Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail > Date: 9/11/97 18:09 > > I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have > absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please > help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't > know where to begin. Thanks Much. > > Charles Levy > -- > http://wizard.ucr.edu/~clevy > http://wizard.ucr.edu/praxis From jmote@pewtrusts.com Thu Sep 11 12:34:25 1997 Received: from pewtrusts.com (pewtrusts.com [204.242.21.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA11857 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:34:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PEW-Message_Server by pewtrusts.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:36:03 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:33:08 -0500 From: "Jonathon E. Mote" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Help With Marx Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline You might also consider using Shlomo Avineri's "Social and Political Thought of Marx." Jon Mote From elarsen@erols.com Thu Sep 11 12:52:46 1997 Received: from grace.carlow.edu (grace.carlow.edu [206.181.153.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA12696 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:52:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from libby ([206.181.153.233]) by grace.carlow.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15791 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709111853.OAA15791@grace.carlow.edu> X-Sender: elarsen#pop.erols.com@wingate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: "Elizabeth A. Larsen" Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Charles, Here are two books you may want to look into: 1. Sociology of the Family, by Steven L. Nock, Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1987 2. Family in Transition, by Arlene and Jerome Skolnick, 5th edition, Little, Brown & Co., Boston, Toronto, 1986. There may well be more recent editions of these books available. These are both about ten years old. The first is a textbook and the second a book of articles. Good luck, Libby At 10:07 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have >absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please >help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't >know where to begin. Thanks Much. > >Charles Levy >-- >http://wizard.ucr.edu/~clevy >http://wizard.ucr.edu/praxis > > From clarkjs@server.sasw.ncsu.edu Thu Sep 11 13:05:02 1997 Received: from cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.224]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA14062 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from server.sasw.ncsu.edu (server.sasw.ncsu.edu [152.1.34.18]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id PAA18865 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SASW/SpoolDir by server.sasw.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.31); 11 Sep 97 15:05:09 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by SASW (Mercury 1.31); 11 Sep 97 15:03:55 EST5EDT From: "jacqueline clark" To: To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:03:19 EST Subject: 20/20 Episode X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <301B3E25AB5@server.sasw.ncsu.edu> This past summer 20/20 did a segment on the experiences of American Airline flight attendants. They did a pretty good job, and it fit nicely with Hocschild's work in "The Managed Heart". I wasn't able to tape it, and when I tried to order the video, I was told that this particular segment would never be available for purchase. Did anyone out there happen to tape it? And if so, could we work out some kind of barter? --jackie clark --north carolina state university --raleigh, north carolina From dcoon@ksu.edu Thu Sep 11 13:27:34 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA15905 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:27:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from abc (dcoon@abc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.3]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id OAA08056 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:27:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: by abc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id OAA15004; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:27:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:27:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@abc.ksu.ksu.edu To: Graduate Students International Sociology Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible In-Reply-To: <199709111853.OAA15791@grace.carlow.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, when I had an undergrad course in Marriage and Family, my professor had a BA and MA and theology with a PhD in SOciology, and he could not help but point out how wrong the bible was with regard to family (and with regard to religon in general in his Soc of Religion Class). He showed us several instances where the bible refers to women as "property" and he quoted a verse from Peter that says women cannot go to Heaven. In the Soc of Rel class he read a verse that said the earth is flat and has four corners. Illness are caused by evil spirits, not bacteria or viruses, the earth "stood still" while Joshua was fighting the Huterites...etc.... The Bible, particulary in the gospels of Peter, potrays women as inferior to men and as second class citizens. Given this, and Given that Peter says women cannot go to heaven in KJV and NIV versions of the bible, I find it interesting that women are the most religiously active. He saw the bible as reflecting "The Modern scientific view of the time in which it was written." The Marriage & Family book we used for that class was Lasswell and Lasswell, _Marriage_&_the_Family_, 1991, Belmont, CA: Wadsworth. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Sep 11 14:26:45 1997 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA17583 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:26:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) id NAA13439 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199709112028.NAA13439@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Marriage & Family course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Family in Transition (Skolnick & Skolnick) is now in its 9th edition. It's bounced around different publishers, but is now published by Addison- Wesley Longman. You can get a review copy of this (and most other texts put out by textbook (i.e., non-university press) publishers) by requesting it over the publisher's web page. I'll be using the Skolnick & Skolnick text as one book in the Family course I'm teaching, though I actually prefer earlier editions. I'm also using Stephanie Coontz's The Way We Never Were, but probably half the readings will be articles I've pulled from other sources. I just hate being constrained by the perspectives you get from one or two books/texts. For more ideas on readings, assignments, etc., I'd suggest investing in ASA's syllabi set called Teaching About Families. You can probably find order information on ASA's web page: www.asanet.org Laura Miller From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Thu Sep 11 14:33:41 1997 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA17982 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:33:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INITX2FLFK99DM5I@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:30:37 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INITSSN2AO99DIA4@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA05484 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:13:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:13:07 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Marriage and Family To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709112013.QAA05484@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Start from the Bible, that book has never been wrong! Now Abraham, he knew from parenting. And don't even get me started on how the story of Rachel and Leah has inspired my marraige. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Thu Sep 11 14:45:20 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA18493 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:45:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INITX2FLFK99DM5I@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:34:27 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INITSSN2AO99DIA4@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA08318 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:19:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:19:19 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Marriage and Family To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709112019.QAA08318@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >However, there is an excellent book that gives the >pattern of marriage and divorce rates over time. It is titled _Marriage, >Divorce, Remarriage_ and it is written by Andrew J. Cherlin (1992). I happen to be working for Andy this semester. He is the guru on divorce and its effects on children. Here's his home page URL, from which you can browse his CV and check out some of his other fine work: http://www.jhu.edu/~soc/achmpg.htm From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Thu Sep 11 14:48:37 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id OAA18657 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:48:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lindblom.rutgers.edu (lindblom.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.76]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA15992 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:48:32 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970911164824.007656a4@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:48:24 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Racial experiences In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sharon, This sounds like a great class exercise that should generate plenty of discussion. I worry some though that the exercise could be rendered ineffective if 'white' students, in particular, try to give the "socially desirable" response that they don't need any compensation because they'll work hard etc. no matter who they are and they don't feel it matters whether a person is "white, black, yellow, or purple." Such students would probably really want some compensation if the event actually occurred but since its only a class exercise with no real consequences, they may attempt to subvert the exercise to advance their opinion that racial inequality does not exist in the contemporary United States. I would still do the exercise but be prepared for this possibility. One handout that I've found useful is to photocpy the part of Peggy McIntosh's article on "White Priviledge" that has a numbered list of some 40 or so invisible advantages incurred among white people that whites rarely recognize as unearned priviledges they get simply for having white skin color. I don't have the cite handy but can find it if you need it. Another exercise you might try is to ask students "given an example of how your race has affected you in the past week?" What I've found when I do this is that white students tend to either 1) relate an incident where they were in a predominantly non-white environment and felt vulnerable or discriminated against because of their race or 2) say that race HASN'T EFFECTED them. Of course whites are "raced" even when they are in all white environments but this goes unrecognized. Either of these answers can be a rich source of discussion. The first answer points to rare incidents where whites are the "marked" category and you might ask students who give such a response how they would adjust to living in a society where they are almost always the minority (an experience that blacks, hispanics etc. are more familiar with) and if such incidents weren't isolated to a few places but widespread everywhere. The second response can be related to right-handers and left-handers (if you want a politically uncharged issue for an anology). Right-handers don't think of their handedness as effecting them, yet when they go to class all the chairs are structured to favor them. Lefties have to think about getting to class in time to get those 1 or 2 lefty chairs, etc. and they are much more able to recognize how handedness effects them etc. I've always wanted to sneak into a bunch of nearby classrooms and steal all the lefty chairs and put them in one room and take out all but 4 righty chairs when I have a small class and see what happens when they come in, before doing this lesson. The point being that priviledge is invisible until its taken away. You might ask if not being discriminated because one is "white" in an all white environment really means that being white has NO EFFECT. You may have already planned similar exercises. I think these would work well with your exercise and would also make sure that the class succeeds even if many whites elect to give the 'shrewd' socially desirable response. Wayne Brekhus brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu At 01:18 AM 9/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >I am doing a class on racial issues in America. The Prof. I worked >for suggested using an in class exercise based on Hacker's "Two Nations" >You give this story: a catastrophe has caused a sickness in which skin >colors change- >whites now have dark skin and dark skinned persons are now white. You ask >the class to determine what monetary values to be placed as compensation >for their dilemma.- Has anyone ever use this type of exercise and what >were the results? > > >___________________________________________________________________________ ___ >___________________________________________________________________________ ___ > Department of Sociology > University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee > > Sharon Wisner > Bolton 711 > Office Hours:Monday 10:30-11:30 Wednesday 1:00-2:00 > or by appointment > 229-4598 > wisner@csd.uwm.edu > HomePage: http://www.csd.uwm.edu/~wisner > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ ___ >___________________________________________________________________________ ___ > > > > > From cdh3@Ra.MsState.Edu Thu Sep 11 14:53:53 1997 Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu (Ra.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA18821 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:53:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (cdh3@localhost) by Ra.MsState.Edu (8.8.6/7.0m-FWP-MsState) with SMTP id PAA10314 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:53:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:53:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Clark D. Hudspeth" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Marriage and Family Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Most of the suggestions posted thus far on teaching M&F have been sound. However let me add that unless the students have had a sociology class prior to taking M&F, it seems appropriate to lay a fundamental groundwork for understanding these two social institutions. So, what I do is cover three sociological concepts that, hopefully, allow the students to gain a fuller understanding of the topic: Specifically, a brief discussion of socialization, culture, and stratification. It seems important that students understand that macrolevel social forces influence behavior at the micro (individual) level. From cbrown@siu.edu Thu Sep 11 15:29:27 1997 Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA21135 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:29:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from port6.aixdialin.siu.edu (port6.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.6]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id QAA33402 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709112129.QAA33402@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: cbrown@Saluki-mail.siu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible >He showed us several instances where the bible refers to women as >"property" and he quoted a verse from Peter that says women cannot go to >Heaven. In the Soc of Rel class he read a verse that said the earth is >flat and has four corners. Dave: I would really like to know where these versus are located; do you have them written down somewhere? Thanks. Qapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a three-edged sword" ?? Southern Illinois University ?? Kosh Naranek ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Thu Sep 11 17:04:43 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA24444 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INIXEOGZR499DHZS@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:42:45 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INIXEEPTFO99DJJP@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA25112 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:05:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:05:41 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Help with Marx To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709112205.SAA25112@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >The other suggestions sound excellent. I would also recommend >_Capitalism and Modern Social Theory_, by Anthony Giddens, in my >opinion a very useful reference tool. Good luck! Although I recommended another book earlier, I would say that this Giddens is an excellent choice. This book can get anyone through their classical theory course with a minimum amount of pain. From dcoon@ksu.edu Thu Sep 11 17:58:33 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA28088 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:58:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fox (dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id SAA29894; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:58:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: by fox (SMI-8.6/1.34) id SAA28049; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:58:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:58:28 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: "Charles M. Brown" cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible In-Reply-To: <199709112129.QAA33402@saluki-mail.siu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No, I don't but none of these things are stated explicityl, one verse refers to for example "A man's wife and his other property" implying that the wife is property Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Thu Sep 11 18:49:13 1997 Received: from smtp2.utexas.edu (smtp2.utexas.edu [128.83.126.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id SAA00711 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 28407 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 00:49:22 -0000 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (128.83.126.1) by smtp2.utexas.edu with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 00:49:22 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-105-31.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.176.175]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA09870 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:49:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <34189159.12F8@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:48:26 -0500 From: Bob Woldman MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family References: <34182556.2B50AF6@earthling.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out these books in preperation for your class: THE WAY WE NEVER WERE by Stephanie Coontz PROMISES TO KEEP by David Popenoe et. al. LIFE WITHOUT FATHER by David Popenoe IN THE NAME OF THE FAMILY by Judith Stacey DIVIDING THE CHILD by Maccoby & Mnookin -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From TR.Young@uvm.edu Fri Sep 12 06:03:15 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA23078; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:03:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:03:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.13) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.4DE0E8A0@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 8:03:07 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970912080235.3437462c@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU From: TR Young Subject: Crime, Labor Surplus and Punishment Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu A new article in the August, 1997 issue of Social Problems further support neo-marxist theories of law, control and imprisonment patterns. The article, by Andrew Hochstetler and Neal Shover, UTenn., studied data from 269 counties between 1980 to 1990. It finds that state use of punishment varies with economic conditions. When the economy is strong and surplus labor reserve shrinks, punishment is relaxed; in times of stagnation or crisis, state use of punishment rises. In particular, change in violent street crime, in the proportionate size of the young male population, and in labor surplus contribute to change in state use of punishment while increase in property crime does not. Every one who teaches criminology, social problems or sociology of Law will find this article and its references most helpful to the knowledge process. TR Young, Senior Editor FROM THE LEFT TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 07:48:13 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA28050 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:48:09 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:47:45 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874097958; Sun, 12 Oct 97 14:36:16 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 14:36:16 GMT Message-Id: <9708128740.AA874097958@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage and Family No Christian, it's not a joke! I'm sure you're aware (unless you're an ec=volutionist), that marriage and family as institutions first took place immediately after the creation sequence in the book of Genesis with the very first couple on Earth, ie; Adam & Eve. Therefore any academic treatise on the subject would do a thorough justice by bearing the biblical context in mind. In addition to the Bible, there is a long list of bibliography ranging from:- Bernard, Jessie, 'The Future of Marriage', New York, NY, Vail-Ballou Press, Inc., Binghamton. to Minault, Gail (ed.), 'The Extended Family'. New Delhi, Chanakya Publications. Perhaps, Christian you need to tell us how "WRONG" the Bible is, first on the subject of "Marriage and Family", and then move on to the other "number of issues" you refer to. Please also bear in mind that, like most textbooks, there is a distinction between other examples, trajectories, paradigms and theories cited by the author as a contextual background, and the author's own specific contributions. Thus, you'll find that there are sections in the Bible where certain stories are recounted and sections where God specifically instructs, for example "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife" in Exodus 20:17. We hope to hear from you soon where you think any specific instructions in the Bible are "WRONG" on the subject of "Marriage and Family". cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/11/97 19:19 I hope the following is a joke if it is HA AH AH. If not let me know and I'll be more then happy to educate you as to just how *WRONG* the bible is on a number of issues including marriage. Best, Christian M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Charles, > > Start from the Bible, that book has never been wrong! Better > still see any seasoned reverend minister who is also a > sociologist. He/she could point you towards some very useful > balanced literature and perspectives. Anyone in cyberspace > who fits this category can help. Anyone out there? Own up > please. > > cheers, > frisky. > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Marriage and Family > Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail > Date: 9/11/97 18:09 > > I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have > absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please > help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't > know where to begin. Thanks Much. > > Charles Levy > -- > http://wizard.ucr.edu/~clevy > http://wizard.ucr.edu/praxis From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 08:00:56 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA28469 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:00:48 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:00:08 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874098711; Sun, 12 Oct 97 14:50:20 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 14:50:20 GMT Message-Id: <9708128740.AA874098711@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible Hello David, Obviously, your "professor" is not a Minister, so I can understand how "theologically thorough" he can be in a sociology class. Perhaps you need to tell us what points he made (with biblical support) about how "wrong" the Bible is with regard to the family as an institution. Also, it would be very helpful if you can supply us with which particular sections in the Bible which to women as "property" and where the Bible states that women cannot go to Heaven, and also, where your "professor" says that the earth is flat and has four corners, etc. etc. etc. Also please show us the exact scriptural portions in Peter (in both KJV and NIV) where it states that women cannot go to heaven, and where women are treated as second class citizens. Perhaps you also need to tell us what you mean by "The Modern scientific view of the time in which it was written" when the Bible was written under inspiration from God. I'm sure you're aware that the Bible is also a key textbook in Sociology. We hope to hear from you. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/11/97 20:24 Well, when I had an undergrad course in Marriage and Family, my professor had a BA and MA and theology with a PhD in SOciology, and he could not help but point out how wrong the bible was with regard to family (and with regard to religon in general in his Soc of Religion Class). He showed us several instances where the bible refers to women as "property" and he quoted a verse from Peter that says women cannot go to Heaven. In the Soc of Rel class he read a verse that said the earth is flat and has four corners. Illness are caused by evil spirits, not bacteria or viruses, the earth "stood still" while Joshua was fighting the Huterites...etc.... The Bible, particulary in the gospels of Peter, potrays women as inferior to men and as second class citizens. Given this, and Given that Peter says women cannot go to heaven in KJV and NIV versions of the bible, I find it interesting that women are the most religiously active. He saw the bible as reflecting "The Modern scientific view of the time in which it was written." The Marriage & Family book we used for that class was Lasswell and Lasswell, _Marriage_&_the_Family_, 1991, Belmont, CA: Wadsworth. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 08:03:34 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA28560 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:03:32 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:03:18 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874098925; Sun, 12 Oct 97 14:53:35 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 14:53:35 GMT Message-Id: <9708128740.AA874098925@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Dear sir/madam, please be more explaining if you have to help us. I don't quite understand what you mean here! ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/11/97 21:31 >Start from the Bible, that book has never been wrong! Now Abraham, he knew from parenting. And don't even get me started on how the story of Rachel and Leah has inspired my marraige. From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Fri Sep 12 08:13:30 1997 Received: from smtp2.utexas.edu (smtp2.utexas.edu [128.83.126.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA29039 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:13:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 25532 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 14:13:39 -0000 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (128.83.126.1) by smtp2.utexas.edu with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 14:13:39 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-103-16.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.176.64]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25503 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <34194DDE.7B8D@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:12:46 -0500 From: Bob Woldman MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family References: <9708128740.AA874097958@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please > also bear in mind that, like most textbooks, there is a > distinction between other examples, trajectories, paradigms > and theories cited by the author as a contextual background, > and the author's own specific contributions. Thus, you'll > find that there are sections in the Bible where certain > stories are recounted and sections where God specifically > instructs... The Bible is not a textbook. It is a collection of sacred writings. I believe most theologians would agree with me on this. The Bible does not put forth any theories of any kind. It cannot be the basis for scientific investigation, and should not be the basis for social UNDERSTANDING, but rather the basis for faith and religious practice. The students will be there to learn sociology of the family not the Christian theology of the family. best, Bob -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 08:16:05 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA29301 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:16:02 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:15:56 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874099629; Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:03:53 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:03:53 GMT Message-Id: <9708128740.AA874099629@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible Hi David, I wonder what you mean by "none of these things are stated explicitly". Are you trying to tell us that you cannot quote verbatim or word for word from a book you claim to be referring us to? Or you mean those words you have quoted are not in the book (black and white)? I doubt whether there is any section in the Bible where it is stated "A man's wife and his other property", and by which you infer in your subsequent "implication" that a wife is a property. I'm afriad you need to be absolutely specific in this particular reference. Also please bear in mind that a supposedly wrong citation leads to a wrong inference, interpretation, extrapolation, etc. as is very often in the Social Sciences where people just "quote" or misquote anything and get away with it! I'm afraid you need to be more forthcoming sir. Waiting to hear from you. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 00:55 No, I don't but none of these things are stated explicityl, one verse refers to for example "A man's wife and his other property" implying that the wife is property Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From dcoon@ksu.edu Fri Sep 12 08:17:58 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA29444 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:17:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id JAA12828; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:17:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA06162; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:17:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:17:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: u@ksu.edu Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible In-Reply-To: <9708128740.AA874098711@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The professor WAS an ordained United Methodist Minister, did quote the exact Bible verses, Bbut I do not have them here. As for referring to women as property, I don't know the exact verse, but If I am not mistaken several times throught the Old Testament and New Testmant (including one refrence by the 10Commandments in KJV) The Bible Refers to "A man's wife and his other PROPERTY" inmplying that a man's wife is his property. Also, if you argue that the Bible has never been wrong, how do you address the fact that many persons in the Old Testament have several wives? In the gospel of Peter, it makes a Convaluded Refrence, that "And if a Man is Married, his wife shall not have eternal life" I will try to get the exact verse if I can. In the Old Testament, verses in Numbers, Exodus, Ezikiel refer to "the Four corners of the earth" Why do religous types dismiss evolution? Of the 2 Creation stories in Genisis, one of them says that God Created the Animals first, then he created man all in 7 days, several other verses in scripture say that "A day is 1,000 years in the eyes of the Lord," maybe they left out a few extra zeros by mistake, then evolution fits in with the Bible. Charles Darwin never said that Man descended from Monkeys, all he said basically was what Sociologist Herbert Specencer called "Survival of the fittest," Those members species that have genes resistant to a particular ailment will be the only ones to survive to reproduce the next generation, and as a result SPECIES CHANGE OVER TIME! All Darwin Said is that Species Change over time, this is not contradictary in any way to the Biblical Creation story, you can observe this phenomon occuring in the world around us. How anyone can be a Christian and go around judging wether other people will be "saved" or will "parish for eternal life" is beyond me, becuase their own Bible says that "Jusgement is mine sayeth the Lord." Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From dcoon@ksu.edu Fri Sep 12 08:20:48 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA29634 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:20:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id JAA13757; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:20:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA06441; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:20:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:20:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible In-Reply-To: <9708128740.AA874099629@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I cannot quote anything word for word because I am not a Theologian, but My professor CAN AND DID quote WORD FOR WORD from the Holy Scripture. IT does explictily state many of the points I made. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 09:14:15 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA00896 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:14:08 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:13:32 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874103124; Sun, 12 Oct 97 16:03:43 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 16:03:43 GMT Message-Id: <9708128741.AA874103124@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: "Dave Alan Coon (:" Cc: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[4]: Marriage/Family & Bible Hi Dave, I think inability to quote what your "professor" said or give us a reference makes your argument untenable, unreliable and bogus. This is an example of academic deception. You perhaps have to withdraw your argument since it does not hold water. You don't have to be a theologian to qupte from the Bible. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: "Dave Alan Coon (:" at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 15:14 I cannot quote anything word for word because I am not a Theologian, but My professor CAN AND DID quote WORD FOR WORD from the Holy Scripture. IT does explictily state many of the points I made. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 09:28:37 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA01405 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:28:29 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:28:20 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874104023; Sun, 12 Oct 97 16:17:35 GMT Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 16:17:35 GMT Message-Id: <9708128741.AA874104023@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Bob, are you trying to say that religious faith and practice is not a sociological phenomena? How are you going to have social UNDERSTANDING into a religious phenomena unless you know the way that phenomena operates? What exactly do you mean by the Bible cannot be the basis for scientific investigation? Evidence for the resurrection of the body of Jesus Christ is based both on biblical evidence and other physical evidence. Do you realy know what a textbook is? You mean it is not part of the bibliography? I'm glad you use the phrase "sociology of the family" The sociology of the family begins from the Bible (with Adam and Eve, the first family). Definitely, Charle's class and lectures is not a strictly theological or Christian one, but every academic treatise on the subject of the sociology of the family will not be complete without stating its origins and its evolution (not the "theory")!!!!! cheers, frisky ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 15:13 > Please > also bear in mind that, like most textbooks, there is a > distinction between other examples, trajectories, paradigms > and theories cited by the author as a contextual background, > and the author's own specific contributions. Thus, you'll > find that there are sections in the Bible where certain > stories are recounted and sections where God specifically > instructs... The Bible is not a textbook. It is a collection of sacred writings. I believe most theologians would agree with me on this. The Bible does not put forth any theories of any kind. It cannot be the basis for scientific investigation, and should not be the basis for social UNDERSTANDING, but rather the basis for faith and religious practice. The students will be there to learn sociology of the family not the Christian theology of the family. best, Bob -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From dcoon@ksu.edu Fri Sep 12 09:40:06 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA01999 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:40:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id KAA12650; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:39:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id KAA15849; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:39:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:39:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: <9708128741.AA874104023@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know if the message went out (this mail system is screwed up) but I did send one message with specific evidence cited by the prof, if it did not go through, I'll be happy to supply the specific refrences again. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Fri Sep 12 09:47:38 1997 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA02296 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:47:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/10.1) id LAA21777; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:47:31 -0400 (GMT+4:00) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:47:30 -0400 From: Pamela Marie Paxton To: socgrad Subject: for crying out loud!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [1Cor 14:34.2] the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. [1Tim 2:12.4] I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. [1Pet 3:5.5] So once the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves and were submissive to their husbands [1Cor 11:3.19] But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. this is just New Testament, RSV (and not nearly all of the potentially relvant cites at that). Pam Paxton ******************************** Pamela Paxton Department of Sociology University of North Carolina CB#3210, Hamilton Hall Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 email: ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu ******************************** From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Fri Sep 12 09:50:24 1997 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA02518 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/10.1) id LAA22125; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:50:18 -0400 (GMT+4:00) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:50:17 -0400 From: Pamela Marie Paxton To: socgrad Subject: marriage and family thread Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I feel that we are really starting to lose any sort of thread in our discussion of marriage and the family and the bible. (read: it appears to be fast getting out of control) #1) we need to be careful in our use of "wrong." David Coon writes that the bible must be wrong because it talks about men having two wives. That may be literally/factually "true." According to our current (American) moral sentiments it may be "wrong." Assuming that there IS some absolute truth out there (and some could argue that there isn't) we can NOT know what it is. Our scientific and moral theories just give us slate of beliefs to choose from. Talking about "wrong" in this context seems pretty useless. #2) how the bible should be used in a marriage and the family class is debatable but its hard to imagine using it in any normative way. As sociologists we are supposed to EXPLAIN things. We might have an opinion about whether adultery is right or wrong, but we should probably not TEACH it one way or another--unless the class is explicitly morally oriented (as in a Christian college). I CAN see using the bible in a course to illustrate either a) history or b) a text that many americans consider to be quite important in deciding how to arrange their marriages. I'm not sure it would be useful if used in other ways (although I'm open to suggestions). #3) I think its hard to argue that the bible doesn't say some negative things about women (see my previous post for some exact references). Sure, some modern translations/interpretations try to hide that fact. That's an issue that needs to be dealt with both in personal faith and in teaching the bible. Sweeping issues under the rug is ineffective and makes individuals who do so look uninformed. Sincerely, Pam Paxton ******************************** Pamela Paxton Department of Sociology University of North Carolina CB#3210, Hamilton Hall Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 email: ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu ******************************** From dcoon@ksu.edu Fri Sep 12 09:53:18 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id JAA02815 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:53:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fox (dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id KAA17646 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:53:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: by fox (SMI-8.6/1.34) id KAA17848; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:53:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:53:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: Graduate Students International Sociology Subject: Re: for crying out loud!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I wish to applaud Pam Paxton for pointing out but a few examples of how the Bible treats women as second class citizens. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From c646827@showme.missouri.edu Fri Sep 12 10:11:52 1997 Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id KAA03706 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:11:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from skynet.sky.net (ip67.kc.sky.net [206.230.165.67]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA123578 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:11:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199709121611.LAA123578@mail.missouri.edu> From: "Brent Myer" To: Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:08:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Hello folks, Obviously the bible and more importantly the infuence of the bible's words on the creation of the family as an institution would be part of a sociological investigation. But that does not mean we have to take the hypothetical constructs within the bible as a starting point for investigation. I think that many people in the U.S. who are religious do not take all the passages in the bible as god sent. We see people altering vows in order to accomodate modern conceptions of gender roles within the family, as well as people being hitched at the courthouse. Clearly the influence of the bible and the religions based on these writing are important to our conception of family, but it is unclear how these writings form a sociological perspective on their own. For me, to understand the family today, social trandformations of the past 50 years are of more critical importance that the history as presented in the bible. If pushed, i would go as far back as "the great transformation" to posit the modern conception of a traditional family (as illustrated by Parsons). This means that economic, political, and demographic changes have played an important role in the development of family. As for science. How on earth can you prove that Adam and Eve were the first family? If we are at all interested in empirical evidence, which to a small degree i think is important, where would the data come from? We know of Adam and Eve only from the data that was supplied in the bible, they didn't leave any proof positive did they? I'm talking about notes, writings, shoes, fig leaves or something of that kind. Kids don't count. what do we know about this family.. who took out the garbage, who raised the kids, how do we know if we know? ****************** Brent Myer student of society MU c646827@showme.missouri.edu From conroyt@bu.edu Fri Sep 12 11:02:25 1997 Received: from acs3.bu.edu (ACS3.BU.EDU [128.197.153.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA05241 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:02:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs3.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id NAA26300 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:02:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:02:09 -0400 (EDT) From: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: <34194DDE.7B8D@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Very sensible comments here, Bob, with which I concur. I also see the bible as a cultural text, but to call it a "textbook is bizarre" as if films, fictional works, political tracts, graffiti, and advertisments were also textbooks. Reminds me somewhat of the confusions over the differences between "social" and "sociological." On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Bob Woldman wrote: > > The Bible is not a textbook. It is a collection of sacred > writings. I believe most theologians would agree with me on this. > The Bible does not put forth any theories of any kind. It cannot > be the basis for scientific investigation, and should not be the > basis for social UNDERSTANDING, but rather the basis for faith and > religious practice. The students will be there to learn sociology > of the family not the Christian theology of the family. > From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Fri Sep 12 11:30:37 1997 Received: from smtp2.utexas.edu (smtp2.utexas.edu [128.83.126.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA06434 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:30:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 25755 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 17:30:46 -0000 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (128.83.126.1) by smtp2.utexas.edu with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 17:30:46 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-109-32.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.177.176]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29708 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:30:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <34197C11.1332@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:29:53 -0500 From: Bob Woldman MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family References: <9708128741.AA874104023@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > > Bob, > are you trying to say that religious faith and practice is > not a sociological phenomena? How are you going to have > social UNDERSTANDING into a religious phenomena unless you > know the way that phenomena operates? What exactly do you > mean by the Bible cannot be the basis for scientific > investigation? Evidence for the resurrection of the body of > Jesus Christ is based both on biblical evidence and other > physical evidence. Do you realy know what a textbook is? > You mean it is not part of the bibliography? I'm glad you > use the phrase "sociology of the family" The sociology of > the family begins from the Bible (with Adam and Eve, the > first family). Definitely, Charle's class and lectures is > not a strictly theological or Christian one, but every > academic treatise on the subject of the sociology of the > family will not be complete without stating its origins and > its evolution (not the "theory")!!!!! I feel this is getting a little silly. I do not want to keep beating a dead horse, but I simply must respond to this. Of course we as sociologists should observe religion as a sociological phenomena. I do not think that was what we are talking about. You want to view it as an ultimate authority for science and research. I as a non-christian student would feel cheated an offended if a class were taught from this perspective. As for scientific proof for the reserrection, you put a hefty amount of faith in very scant and questionable evidence. are you this accepting of stonger scientific evidence that goes againt your pre-existing beliefs? say evolution? Best, Bob -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From elarsen@erols.com Fri Sep 12 11:54:35 1997 Received: from grace.carlow.edu (grace.carlow.edu [206.181.153.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA08076 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from libby ([206.181.153.203]) by grace.carlow.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22622 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709121756.NAA22622@grace.carlow.edu> X-Sender: elarsen#pop.erols.com@wingate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: "Elizabeth A. Larsen" Subject: Book Suggestions, please! 1. I may have an opportunity to teach a course called Ethnic and Minority Relations in the spring. Can anyone recommend some good books? My areas of expertise are in criminology, corrections, deviance, delinquency, etc., so I could really use some suggestions. Thanks! 2. Also, does anyone have the NOVA video "Deadly Deception"? It is about the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment that took place from about 1932-1972 in which a number of black males in the advanced stages of the disease were systematically denied treatment so that they could be "studied" by the Public Health Service. Films for the Humanities and Sciences told me that they no longer carry NOVA films, although they used to. I called NOVA and they told me that the film expired in January 1996. They encouraged me to contact libraries to see if anyone purchased it while it was available, but I have had no luck. If someone could provide me with a copy, I would be more than glad to compensate you for any expense. Thanks, Libby From rlgoldst@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu Fri Sep 12 12:36:22 1997 Received: from ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (ux6.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.9]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA09179 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from rlgoldst@localhost) by ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA15663; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:36:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:36:18 -0500 (CDT) From: rachel laura goldstein To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Book Suggestions, please! In-Reply-To: <199709121756.NAA22622@grace.carlow.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Elizabeth A. Larsen wrote: > 1. I may have an opportunity to teach a course called Ethnic and Minority > Relations in the spring. Can anyone recommend some good books? My areas of > expertise are in criminology, corrections, deviance, delinquency, etc., so > I could really use some suggestions. Thanks! Hi, Libby. I just worked on a study guide for a text book (a real text book) called _Racial and Ethnic Groups_ by Schaefer, the publisher is Addison Wesley Longman (212-207-2780). It is a good introduction to concepts related to race/ethnicity stuff, as well as being a good intro to the experiences of different groups in this country. So if you aren't anti-text book, check it out. Good luck, Rachel > 2. Also, does anyone have the NOVA video "Deadly Deception"? It is about the > Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment that took place from about 1932-1972 in which > a number of black males in the advanced stages of the disease were > systematically denied treatment so that they could be "studied" by the > Public Health Service. Films for the Humanities and Sciences told me that they > no longer carry NOVA films, although they used to. > I called NOVA and they told me that the film > expired in January 1996. They encouraged me to contact libraries to see if > anyone purchased it while it was available, but I have had no luck. If > someone could provide me with a copy, I would be more than glad to > compensate you for any expense. > > Thanks, > Libby > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rachel L. Goldstein Department of Sociology University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 326 Lincoln Hall, MC-454 702 S. Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801 217 - 333 - 1950 rlgoldst@uiuc.edu some guy designed this room i'm standing in another one built it with his own tools who says i like right angles these are not my laws these are not my rules -- ani difranco "i'm no heroine" From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Fri Sep 12 12:58:11 1997 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA09516 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:58:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cats-po-1 (root@cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id LAA11667 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu by cats-po-1 (8.6.13/4.8) id LAA22044; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:57:58 -0700 Message-ID: <32385CBC.CB0F104B@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:55:57 -0700 From: Christian Harlow Reply-To: harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible References: <9708128741.AA874103124@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Hi Dave, > I think inability to quote what your "professor" said or > give us a reference makes your argument untenable, > unreliable and bogus. This is an example of academic > deception. You perhaps have to withdraw your argument since > it does not hold water. You don't have to be a theologian to > qupte from the Bible. > > cheers, > frisky. > I disagree. I think it shows us how outdated the bible is. The bible does state that a women is man's property (simple fact). Since you claim to be the resident Bible scholar (you're the one who recommended it as a key text on marriage!!!), perhaps you should tell us where it is exactly stated. Didn't you also state some asinine thing about the bible never being wrong!!! The bible is the guidebook to the ideology of slavery. It tells the slave that this world may be horrible but there is salvation at the end of the tunnel. Thus, no reason to fight for your liberty now, better to just wait it out!!! The bible's political stance places social structures on solid ideological foundations rather than forcing the issue here and now--do you really think that we should wait for liberation till we die? Spiritually and politically liberation must be strived for in the real world and not some fantasy land called heaven. One las thing is god of the male gender? Are there any books in the bible authored by women? Frisky: Get real. The bible is a bunch of bullshit--best study to help understand why things in this world are so wrong and then left in the dustbin of history. Best, Christian > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible > Author: "Dave Alan Coon (:" at :external_mail > Date: 9/12/97 15:14 > > I cannot quote anything word for word because I am not a Theologian, but > My professor CAN AND DID quote WORD FOR WORD from the Holy Scripture. IT > does explictily state many of the points I made. > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > From Howery@asanet.org Fri Sep 12 13:03:04 1997 Received: from enterprise.csi1.com (enterprise.csi1.com [205.136.28.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA09894 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:03:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCBF8D.3A1CA120@enterprise.csi1.com>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:04:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: Marriage and Family Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:14:16 -0400 Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, reading, apprenticeship in the area. Carla Howery, ASA >---------- >From: Matthew Hoover >Sent: Thursday, September 11, 1997 1:59 PM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: Re: Marriage and Family > >At 10:07 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >>I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have >>absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please >>help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't >>know where to begin. Thanks Much. > >Hi Charles, > >I know of a couple of textbooks that are fairly good, but I don't have >the >names of the authors with me at the moment. I will email you the >reference >for that tomorrow. However, there is an excellent book that gives the >pattern of marriage and divorce rates over time. It is titled >_Marriage, >Divorce, Remarriage_ and it is written by Andrew J. Cherlin (1992). It >was used in my graduate marriage and family class. I have also >stumbled >across a web site that may give you some usefull information. You can >find >it at Http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/Roland. The page is called the >"Asphalt >Philosopher" and it was designed by Roland Johnson, a marriage and >family >sociologist. He has essays about marriage and family issues as well as > >postmodernism for those who are interested. In line with the last post >on >this subject, he was also a minister at one time. > >Good luck with your class, >Matt Hoover >______________________________________________________________________ >Matthew Hoover "two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I > >m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu took the one less traveled by, and that > >Department of Sociology has made all the difference" >Cleveland State University >(216) 523-7177 Robert Frost >Office RT 1722 >_______________________________________________________________________ > > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Sep 12 13:10:44 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA10285 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:10:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id PAA27497; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:09:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:09:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short > notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the > financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, > that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of > competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such > offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, > reading, apprenticeship in the area. > > Carla Howery, ASA > Perhaps the ASA should consider censoring those who make the offer? Or are they absolved of an ethical duty to uphold a standard of competence in all work... Just a thought, Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From clarkjs@server.sasw.ncsu.edu Fri Sep 12 13:15:50 1997 Received: from cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.224]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA10776 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:15:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from server.sasw.ncsu.edu (server.sasw.ncsu.edu [152.1.34.18]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id PAA22232 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SASW/SpoolDir by server.sasw.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.31); 12 Sep 97 15:15:58 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by SASW (Mercury 1.31); 12 Sep 97 15:15:43 EST5EDT From: "jacqueline clark" To: To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:14:46 EST Subject: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1CEE92660@server.sasw.ncsu.edu> I've been reading with interest comments been made about the bible and marriage/family. Is it not possible to have a discussion/debate without personally attacking someone? Is it also possible to debate with claiming to know the "whole truth"? In response to the comments on religion/christianity being useless and anti-social change... Liberation theology has managed to blend the revolutionary ideas of Marx, while also incorporating faith. If you think all religious peope are accepting of the status quo, you've not done your reading --and are as guilty as the person who relies soley on the bible to define his or her world. The sign of a critical mind is the ability to discuss topics without name calling or personally attacking another person, as well as accepting the fact that no one source offers the answers to everything. --jackie clark --north carolina state univeristy --raleigh, north carolina From dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Sep 12 13:20:11 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA11416 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:20:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from polldata.irss.unc.edu (polldata.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.8]) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA27710 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:18:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199709121918.PAA27710@frosty.irss.unc.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:12:50 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu (David Sikkink) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: <199709121611.LAA123578@mail.missouri.edu>; from "dhsikkin" at Fri Sep 12 15:12:50 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII" OK, now we are informed that a text (the Bible) has a very simple meaning: it supports the ideology of slavery. As sociologists, however, we note that the Bible has been used in movements across the ideological spectrum -- including the anti-slavery movement among Northerners in the US. Let me shamelessly promote my advisor's book, _Disruptive Religion_ (Routledge), which shows the importance of faith-based movements on the right and the left. Or see his work on the Central American Peace movement, _Resisting Reagan_ (Chicago). As a sociologist, I doubt that any text has one simple reading. David _____________________________ David Sikkink Dept of Sociology CB 3210, 155 Hamilton Hall University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599 919/962-0514 From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Fri Sep 12 13:27:24 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA12912 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:27:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:27:11 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:24:39 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Subject: Start from WHERE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline No disrespect intended, but are you really suggesting that the Bible has a sociological perspective? One might argue that some contemporary constructions of marriage and family are influenced by Biblical ideas, but I would hardly consider the book a piece of sociological literature. And why suggest only the Bible? Why not also the Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Tao Teh Ching. . . shall I go on? (Insert your own scathing remark about narrow perspectives here. I'm too angry to write one) David Katz Loyola University Chicago From Howery@asanet.org Fri Sep 12 13:52:43 1997 Received: from enterprise.csi1.com (enterprise.csi1.com [205.136.28.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA13879 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:52:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCBF94.277ADE40@enterprise.csi1.com>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:54:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: Marriage and Family Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:04:44 -0400 The same principle applies to those who ask -- chairs are responsible for insuring competence in their faculty. >---------- >From: Jim Cassell >Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 3:09 PM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: RE: Marriage and Family > >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > >> Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short >> notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the >> financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, >> that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of >> competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such >> offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, >> reading, apprenticeship in the area. >> >> Carla Howery, ASA >> > >Perhaps the ASA should consider censoring those who make the offer? Or >are they absolved of an ethical duty to uphold a standard of competence > >in all work... > >Just a thought, >Jim > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~ >James Cassell Institute for Research in Social >Science >e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North >Carolina >Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC >27599-3355 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~ > > From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Fri Sep 12 13:53:32 1997 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA13914 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:53:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cats-po-1 (root@cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id MAA17122 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu by cats-po-1 (8.6.13/4.8) id MAA03108; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:53:26 -0700 Message-ID: <323869BF.7FF211E0@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:51:27 -0700 From: Christian Harlow Reply-To: harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible References: <1CEE92660@server.sasw.ncsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline pontificates: The sign of a critical mind is the ability to discuss topics without name calling or personally attacking another person, as well as accepting the fact that no one source offers the answers to everything. Jacqueline, Spare me. Please don't look down your nose at us dilletantes and tell us what marks a critical mind--as if you know exactly what that is. Heres one sure sign of a critical mind: not relying on some outdated mysoginistic mythology written/and revised by well to do men. Furthermore, noone has personally attacked anyone. Saying the bible is bullshit is simply calling a kettle black. Real language that exists in the real world used everyday by real people. jacueline clark goes on: > In response to the comments on religion/christianity being useless > and anti-social change... Liberation theology has managed to blend > the revolutionary ideas of Marx, while also incorporating faith. Liberation theology is a straw-man. What percentage of Christians subscribe liberation theology do you think? Lib. Theology is simply a minor exception that proves the rule: Christianity is anti-social change. It was originally utilized as the ideological weapon in slave based social structures. Any ideology that suggests we wait for a heaven above without creating one here and now is wrongheaded and anti-social change. > If > you think all religious peope are accepting of the status quo, you've > not done your reading --and are as guilty as the person who > relies soley on the bible to define his or her world. This discussion was never about religious people!! If you think Christians are the only religious people in the world then you're the one who hasn't done their reading. This discussion is about the inappropriateness of using the bible as a normative text in Sociology; and the bible/christianity in a more general sense. Best, Christian > > > > From dcoon@ksu.edu Fri Sep 12 14:29:06 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA15021 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:29:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cbs (dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id PAA24800 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id PAA00690; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: Graduate Students International Sociology Subject: Re: marriage and family thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree totally with Pam Paxton's posting.I did not mean to suggest that it was "wrong" to have more than one wife. Perhaps I should retract that statement, nothing should be considered right or wrong except in the context of a society. Nothing is inherently right or wrong, it is only defined as such by a particular society. American Society (the USA) has tended to legislate that it is "wrong" or illegal to have more than one wife at a time, that is what I was getting at. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From dcoon@ksu.edu Fri Sep 12 14:38:20 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA15397 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:38:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cbs (dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id PAA27879; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:38:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id PAA01829; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:38:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:38:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: "Elizabeth A. Larsen" cc: Sociology Graduate Students International Subject: Re: Book Suggestions, please! In-Reply-To: <199709121756.NAA22622@grace.carlow.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A very good book is by Martin N. Marger, _Race_&_Ethnic_Relations, published by ITP. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From clarkjs@server.sasw.ncsu.edu Fri Sep 12 14:48:15 1997 Received: from cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.224]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA15831 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:48:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from server.sasw.ncsu.edu (server.sasw.ncsu.edu [152.1.34.18]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id QAA29131 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SASW/SpoolDir by server.sasw.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.31); 12 Sep 97 16:48:23 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by SASW (Mercury 1.31); 12 Sep 97 16:48:11 EST5EDT From: "jacqueline clark" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:47:42 EST Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible In-reply-to: <323869BF.7FF211E0@cats.ucsc.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <359823F2C@server.sasw.ncsu.edu> Christian Harlow writes, >Spare me. Please don't look down your nose at us dilletantes and >tell us what marks a critical mind--as if you know exactly what that >is. Heres one sure sign of a critical mind: not relying on some >outdated mysoginistic mythology written/and revised by well to do >men. Furthermore, noone has personally attacked anyone. Saying the >bible is bullshit is simply calling a kettle black. Real language >that exists in the real world used everyday by real people. I sincerely apologize, I did not mean to make it appear that I was "looking down my nose" at anyone. Now, I don't know what your intentions are, but it appears that you have accepted as "truth" that *everything* in the bible is mysoginistic and myth, and therefore anyone who disgrees with you is "wrong". My concern is that people who disagree with you will not enter the discussion, for fear that they will be personally attacked. You may feel that you haven't personally attacked anyone, but the "attacking" tone of your last post was what prompted me to write in the first place. I reacted out of anger when I responded, perhaps I should have cooled off before I posted. >Liberation theology is a straw-man. What percentage of Christians >subscribe liberation theology do you think? Lib. Theology is simply >a minor exception that proves the rule: Christianity is anti-social >change. It was originally utilized as the ideological weapon in >slave based social structures. Any ideology that suggests we wait >for a heaven above without creating one here and now is wrongheaded >and anti-social change. Granted a small minority of Christians subscribe to liberation theology. My point was that there are those who do so. Furthermore, believing in heaven and being pro-social change, or even revolutionary in one's views are not mutually exclusive. >This discussion was never about religious people!! If you think >Christians are the only religious people in the world then you're >the one who hasn't done their reading. This discussion is about the >inappropriateness of using the bible as a normative text in >Sociology; and the bible/christianity in a more general sense. I never stated that Christians are the only religious people in the world. I also never stated that the bible should be used as normative text for sociology. The purpose of even mentioning religious people was to show that you can't lump a particular group of people into one category and say that they are all "anti- social change". --jackie clark --north carolina state university --raleigh, north carolina From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Fri Sep 12 15:02:36 1997 Received: from pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA16292 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:02:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hud03.som.yale.edu (hud03.som.yale.edu [130.132.152.116]) by pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA25162 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3419ADBB.4DA7@yale.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:47 -0400 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: daniel.ryan@yale.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carla Howery wrote: > Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short > notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the > financial incentive is omnipresent. Indeed. But we should emphasize (as followup posts from Jim and Carla suggest) that the biggest financial incentive pushing this phenomenon is that of the instution, not the graduate student. It's the fact that grad students' need for cash permits educational institutions to flexibly respond to enrollment changes that's most underappreciated. > I do want to point out, however, > that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of > competence in all work, including teaching. It's a great idea, of course, but imagine if this standard were"applied" across the board. To ASA talks, for example. > Perhaps, sometimes, such > offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, > reading, apprenticeship in the area. True enough, but this is a slippery slope. Next thing you know the "credential and certification" people will have us earning continuing education credits to qualify us to teach specific courses listed in some sociology handbook, or else teaching will get structured like medicine with specialties and subspecialties regulated by state boards. Cynically, DJR From rcb@uclink.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 12 15:16:57 1997 Received: from uclink4.berkeley.edu (uclink4.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA16504 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:16:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uclink.berkeley.edu (uclink.berkeley.edu [128.32.155.3]) by uclink4.berkeley.edu (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02557 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rcb@localhost) by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA20383 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:14:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:14:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert C Bulman To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible In-Reply-To: <359823F2C@server.sasw.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My, my, Christian. Should we dismiss the entire works of Marx and Engels because we reject some of their ideas or because some interpretations of their work have led to atrocities? I am no apologist for the Bible and I probably agree with you in your rejection of a literal interpretation of the Bible as well as much of the social action that has been taken in its name. But I do believe that a little sociological imagination goes a long way. In other words, when it comes to the intersection of biography and history, the Bible has often played an important role as a text used to motivate social change. The American civil rights movement and liberation theology are only two such examples. Does this mean we should use the Bible as a text to study Marriage and Family? Not at all! It only means that we should keep our minds open as sociologists to understand the complex and often contradictory effects that the Bible (or other holy text, or state constitution, or social theory) has on social action and meaning. Robert From Howery@asanet.org Fri Sep 12 15:20:39 1997 Received: from enterprise.csi1.com (enterprise.csi1.com [205.136.28.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA16637 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:20:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCBFA0.72479E20@enterprise.csi1.com>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:22:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: Marriage and Family Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:32:53 -0400 I do find your view cynical and unfortunate, esp. for a junior person entering a field of choice for a lifelong career. I hope that informal standards and codes of ethics will guide professionalism and no credentialling from external bodies will be necessary. Carla Howery, ASA >---------- >From: Dan Ryan >Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 5:01 PM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: Re: Marriage and Family > >Carla Howery wrote: > >> Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short >> notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the >> financial incentive is omnipresent. > >Indeed. But we should emphasize (as followup posts from Jim and Carla >suggest) that the biggest financial incentive pushing this phenomenon >is >that of the instution, not the graduate student. It's the fact that >grad students' need for cash permits educational institutions to >flexibly respond to enrollment changes that's most underappreciated. > >> I do want to point out, however, >> that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of >> competence in all work, including teaching. > >It's a great idea, of course, but imagine if this standard >were"applied" >across the board. To ASA talks, for example. > >> Perhaps, sometimes, such >> offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, >> reading, apprenticeship in the area. > >True enough, but this is a slippery slope. Next thing you know the >"credential and certification" people will have us earning continuing >education credits to qualify us to teach specific courses listed in >some >sociology handbook, or else teaching will get structured like medicine >with specialties and subspecialties regulated by state boards. > >Cynically, > >DJR > From lucas@utdallas.edu Fri Sep 12 15:31:02 1997 Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id PAA16946 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:30:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inca.utdallas.edu (lucas@inca.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.10]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08510 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:30:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (lucas@localhost) by inca.utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20551 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:30:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: inca.utdallas.edu: lucas owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:30:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael D Lucas To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: The Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Perhaps it might be well to define these particular religious texts (and they are very much texts within their context) as statements of the philosophy of a particular group of persons living somewhere between 2,000 and 5,000 years ago. Further, these texts share substantial writings with each other (the same articles/teachings/essays appear in all three). Their sociological value rests in their power to shape and govern lives over the centuries. These books offer a perspective that is influential to a substantial portion of the world's people, even today. The influence of religion upon cultures worldwide is undenyable. In fact, the presense of religion is one of the few cross-cultural universals. The historical influence of religion in shaping the values and norms associated with family and marriage is profound. Such a discussion has a place in a course on family and marriage, especially if one is seeking to understand and explain the origions of various culture specific mores on the subject. Christianity has been characterized by some scholars and philosophers as the religion of slaves and women - and with some considerable just cause. It offers persons seriously marginalized within the societies represented therein some hope of a better existance in the future in return for tolerating an almost crushing existance in their present time. And yes, Christianity does encourage marginalized people to endure rather than become political activists. If the Romans had thought about it and had not fed the power hungry nature of their priests, they would have openly embraced Christianity, thus depriving the sect of a martyr. Seldom in history has a prevailing power attempted to crush a developing sect that was less of a threat to the existing power structure. With the exception of gathering to worship, Christianity encouraged it's followers to adhere to the prevailing law of the land without question and to endure almost anything. The sociological point, I think, is not whether religious teachings are right or wrong, but the degree to which they influenced cultural development. Michael D. Lucas School of Social Sciences University of Texas at Dallas P.O. 830688 Mail Station GR 31 Richardson, Texas 75083-0688 email: lucas@utdallas.edu From dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Sep 12 16:10:52 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA18077 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:10:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from polldata.irss.unc.edu (polldata.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.8]) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA29953 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:09:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199709122209.SAA29953@frosty.irss.unc.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:03:31 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu (David Sikkink) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: The Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. In-Reply-To: ; from "dhsikkin" at Fri Sep 12 18:03:31 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII" The view below is only part of the story, and is not the concensus of soc of religion scholars (though it may have been 40 years ago). And social movement scholars are increasingly showing the effect of religion (Christianity included) in creating activists, and sustaining social movements. I do agree with much of the rest of your post, however. David It > offers persons > seriously marginalized within the societies represented > therein some hope > of a better existance in the future in return for > tolerating an almost > crushing existance in their present time. And yes, > Christianity does > encourage marginalized people to endure rather than > become political > activists. From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Fri Sep 12 16:18:30 1997 Received: from pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA18451 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:18:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hud03.som.yale.edu (hud03.som.yale.edu [130.132.152.116]) by pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA04806 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3419BF84.20F6@yale.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:17:40 -0400 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: daniel.ryan@yale.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family (subthread: ethics/teaching/etc) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carla Howery wrote: > > I do find your view cynical and unfortunate, esp. for a junior person > entering a field of choice for a lifelong career. I hope that informal > standards and codes of ethics will guide professionalism and no > credentialling from external bodies will be necessary. Carla Howery, > ASA In response Dan writes: I would hope that too, but I'm not persuaded that that it's a good bet, in the long run. As for being cyncial, we should note that there is a difference between "the field" (as an area of intellectual inquiry) and "the profession" (as in ASA, the institution of PhDs, etc.) and our career or vocation. My vocation is as a teacher and researcher. My field is sociology. I belong to particular professional association because it is currently the dominant one among people who do what I do in this country and because I am willing to subscribe to its codes and missions and so forth. That professional affiliation is not the same as my career or vocation. My "view" comes from turning a sociological eye toward the profession and its professional organization (small o -- that is, not ASA per se). In all professions, codes of ethics are not simply about informal standards and self regulation. They represent moral victories of some factions over others, position the profession with respect to other professions or government and cultural institutions and so on. The gist of my original comment was that exhorting the underprepared graduate instructor to take the high road and turn down the assignment (or the chair to refrain from offering it) transforms a structural problem into a personal ethical dilemma (see Chambliss, 1996 for an ethnographic take on how this happens in medicine and nursing). It is hard to think in terms of structures and so few codes of ethics ever contain strictures about them even though the individual behaviors the codes are supposed to regulate often have their origins in structural conditions. Or at least that is what we spend a lot of our time showing when we are practicing our craft. When it gets to penning a sentence about strictures of structures, it must be time to head home for the weekend, so I think I'll stop right there. Good weekends to all. Cheers, Dan From bcc18471@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Sep 12 16:22:02 1997 Received: from cicero.cybercity.dk (cicero.cybercity.dk [195.8.128.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA18692 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vip.cybercity.dk (usr02.cybercity.dk [195.8.128.202]) by cicero.cybercity.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00999 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:20:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from default (msx-05-1-0.1033.cybercity.dk [195.8.138.129]) by vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA29270 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:13:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199709122213.AAA29270@vip.cybercity.dk> From: "Nico" To: Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:18:18 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian Harlow wrote: > Liberation theology is a straw-man. What percentage of Christians > subscribe liberation theology do you think? Lib. Theology is simply a > minor exception that proves the rule: Christianity is anti-social > change. It was originally utilized as the ideological weapon in slave > based social structures. Can't say that I've got any use for religion personally either, but as for your statement that liberation theology is simply a minor exception to a christianity that is categorically anti-social change: that would pretty much depend on where you're from. In a country like South Africa (where I happen to be from) christians like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Beyers Naude have played quite an important role in resisting the Apartheid regime (and in trying to reconcile the different factions again afterwards). Having said that, the (all white) Dutch Reformed Church defended Apartheid on biblical grounds for years, preached that heaven is bound to be and all-white affair, and generally opposed any form of change every step of the way. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that one can use/abuse the bible (and most other texts) to provide ideological ammunition for any and every political goal, depending on which parts one decide to emphasize (e.g. an eye for an eye vs. turn the other cheek, etc.) I do, however, also fail to see how even the most dogmatic of fundamentalists can turn it into a sociology textbook. (When, by the way, did they turn the LSE into a missionary school, M.AMOAH@LSE.AC.UK ?) You continued: > Any ideology that suggests we wait for a heaven > above without creating one here and now is wrongheaded and anti-social > change. As far as I'm concerned, any ideology that promises heaven - whether that be in this life or in some other - should be treated with suspicion. The moment one claims that the end/goal is utopia, any means can be justified in trying to bring that end about. You also wrote: > Saying the bible is > bullshit is simply calling a kettle black English is not my first language, so I might just be on thin ice here, but shouldn't this have read "... is simply calling a spade a spade" or something like that? If you say "... is simply calling a kettle black", one cannot help but remember that it was originally the pot that dared to call the kettle black, was it not? :) As for Jacqueline Clark's observation that: > > > In response to the comments on religion/christianity being useless > > and anti-social change... Liberation theology has managed to blend > > the revolutionary ideas of Marx, while also incorporating faith. > Well, many brands of Marxism already contains a good deal of faith all on its own, I'd say... Nico Copenhagen From cbrown@siu.edu Fri Sep 12 16:26:42 1997 Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA18867 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:26:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from port30.aixdialin.siu.edu (port30.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.30]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id RAA18242 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:26:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:26:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709122226.RAA18242@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: cbrown@Saluki-mail.siu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible >No, I don't but none of these things are stated explicityl, one verse >refers to for example "A man's wife and his other property" implying that >the wife is property > >Sincerely, > >David Coon OK, but I still don't see the connection here that would suggest that women would not be able to go to heaven. Please let me know if you find the verse. Thanks. Qapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a three-edged sword" ?? Southern Illinois University ?? Kosh Naranek ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Fri Sep 12 16:31:17 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA19003 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:31:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pblau.rutgers.edu (pblau.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.75]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA29127 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:31:13 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970912183105.0088bad0@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:31:05 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: RE: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While I agree that competent teaching of a course is an ethical imperitave, there's no reason to automatically assume that the instructor's lack of formal training in sociology of the family will necessarily translate into ineffective teaching in the area. Of course, all other things being equal, it's better to have an instructor who comes in well-versed in the field but this is only one facet, and probably not even the most important one (methods, stats, and theory are perhaps the only classes where a great deal of prior training is necessary for competence), to effectively teaching a course. I'm sure people can cite numerous personal examples where instructors with a reputation for excellence in teaching have been forced into teaching a specialty they're unfamiliar with and rose to the occasion and not only taught the students a great deal about the subfield, but themselves became relative "experts" in the process. Similarly, folks can point to examples where legendary specialists in a field were simply incapable, or worse, completely disinterested in communicating their field to undergraduates. Put quite simply--I'll bet the knowledge level of the instructor in her/his field is NOT the best predictor (or even a very good one) of the knowledge level students have of the field when they leave a class. There's probably some correlation--but I'd put some other variables ahead of it. Once one has the basics in sociology 1) how to envision "sociologically interesting" questions 2) how to challenge common-sense assumptions with critical thought etc. it becomes relatively easy to transfer one's sociological skills from one's own specialty to new specialties in a reasonably short amount of time. I think good sociologists who are good and committed instructors seem able to adapt to teach just about any substantive course well. This is even more so since they can ask "specialists" and folks who have taught a given course what worked for them and benefit from their advice (even the ASA teaching resources guides can help us compensate for lack of "immediate on the spot expertise"). So if you're an enthusiastic, committed and effective sociology instructor in other areas don't be afraid to take on a new course or subfield to teach. Better that than an unenthusiastic, uncommitted, ineffective instructor who specializes in the area. Wayne Brekhus brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu At 03:14 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short >notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the >financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, >that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of >competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such >offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, >reading, apprenticeship in the area. > >Carla Howery, ASA > >>---------- >>From: Matthew Hoover >>Sent: Thursday, September 11, 1997 1:59 PM >>To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >>Subject: Re: Marriage and Family >> >>At 10:07 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >>>I have been asked to teach a Marriage and Family course and have >>>absolutely no experience or training in this area. Could anyone please >>>help me as far as texts, experiences, ideas, curriculum, etc. I don't >>>know where to begin. Thanks Much. >> >>Hi Charles, >> >>I know of a couple of textbooks that are fairly good, but I don't have >>the >>names of the authors with me at the moment. I will email you the >>reference >>for that tomorrow. However, there is an excellent book that gives the >>pattern of marriage and divorce rates over time. It is titled >>_Marriage, >>Divorce, Remarriage_ and it is written by Andrew J. Cherlin (1992). It >>was used in my graduate marriage and family class. I have also >>stumbled >>across a web site that may give you some usefull information. You can >>find >>it at Http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/Roland. The page is called the >>"Asphalt >>Philosopher" and it was designed by Roland Johnson, a marriage and >>family >>sociologist. He has essays about marriage and family issues as well as >> >>postmodernism for those who are interested. In line with the last post >>on >>this subject, he was also a minister at one time. >> >>Good luck with your class, >>Matt Hoover >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Matthew Hoover "two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I >> >>m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu took the one less traveled by, and that >> >>Department of Sociology has made all the difference" >>Cleveland State University >>(216) 523-7177 Robert Frost >>Office RT 1722 >>_______________________________________________________________________ >> >> > > From cbrown@siu.edu Fri Sep 12 16:42:59 1997 Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA20017 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:42:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from port30.aixdialin.siu.edu (port30.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.30]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id RAA23718 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709122242.RAA23718@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: cbrown@Saluki-mail.siu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible >The purpose of even mentioning >religious people was to show that you can't lump a particular group >of people into one category and say that they are all "anti- social >change". > > >--jackie clark >--north carolina state university >--raleigh, north carolina Yes! I agree with Jackie. consider the so-called New evangelical left. Many of them believe in the inerancy and infallibility of the Bible, yet believe in and fight for, equal rights for women and minorities. Tony Campolo and Ron Sider, for example, have provided cogent critics of capitalism and U.S. foreign policy as well as the plight of women and minorities. BTW, Campolo is a sociologist at Eastern University. Not surprisingly, some evangelicals on the right have labeled Campolo, Sider and others as "socialists." Just because a Christian is conservative in their doctrine does not mean that they are also conservative in their politics. Some would do well to consider this in the future..... Qapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a three-edged sword" ?? Southern Illinois University ?? Kosh Naranek ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From lucas@utdallas.edu Fri Sep 12 16:55:39 1997 Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA20741 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:55:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inca.utdallas.edu (lucas@inca.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.10]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13959 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:55:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (lucas@localhost) by inca.utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21930 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:55:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: inca.utdallas.edu: lucas owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:55:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael D Lucas To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: The Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. In-Reply-To: <199709122209.SAA29953@frosty.irss.unc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David, I agree with your criticism of my origional post. I was trying to put forward the perspective that many thought to prevail at the time of the formulation of Christianity, but didn't say it very well. One cannot deny the influence of religion upon social activism. In the United States the influence of Christianity and advocates of that perspective upon various civil rights initiatives cannot be denied. Sometimes the effects snowball in very effective and sometimes suprising ways. For example: The Black civil rights movement of the 1960's and beyond owes much of the successes gained to the interpretation of religious principals to be non-violent social and political activism. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is perhaps the most frequently mentioned icon of this approach, though many others also contributed. The women's movement, for example, owes much to the civil rights movement, both for instruction in how to make a difference in ways that cannot be easily be dismissed as anti-social to the point of illeagality against the prevailing customs, and also for softening the wall of public resistance to change. So, you are quite right to point out that religious teachings, including Christianity, have been used to influence political and social movements in highly significant ways. On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, David Sikkink wrote: > > The view below is only part of the story, and is not the concensus of soc of > religion scholars (though it may have been 40 years ago). And social movement > scholars are increasingly showing the effect of religion (Christianity included) > in creating activists, and sustaining social movements. > > I do agree with much of the rest of your post, however. > > David > > It > > offers persons > > seriously marginalized within the societies represented > > therein some hope > > of a better existance in the future in return for > > tolerating an almost > > crushing existance in their present time. And yes, > > Christianity does > > encourage marginalized people to endure rather than > > become political > > activists. > > > Michael D. Lucas School of Social Sciences University of Texas at Dallas P.O. 830688 Mail Station GR 31 Richardson, Texas 75083-0688 email: lucas@utdallas.edu From clevy@earthling.net Fri Sep 12 16:58:58 1997 Received: from ren.globecomm.net (ren.globecomm.net [207.51.48.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA20861 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:58:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ns.pe.net.pe.net (riv01ppp33.pe.net [205.139.56.144]) by ren.globecomm.net (8.8.7/8.8.0) with ESMTP id SAA06042 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3419C92D.373FE393@earthling.net> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:58:53 -0700 From: "Charles S. Levy" Reply-To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.3.32.19970912183105.0088bad0@email.rci.rutgers.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Wayne for those inspiring words. I began this Marriage and Family thread with a simple query that has become quite amazing. Yet no reply was as disappointing as that of Carla Howery's. I refused the class at the beginning telling the tenured faculty member that I wasn't comfortable with the subject (FYI -- I have taught many Intro classes and Theory (my area), I am a good student, with a critical mind and a Sociological Imagination, etc., ad nauseum). But the faculty member in question said that I better prepare myself for it because that is where the "bread and butter" is for adjunct faculty. So I can take this two ways -- one is that Sociology is not the ethical high standards field we like to think it is, or that money and lack of faculty (or a lack of willingness to give more full-time positions to qualified sociologists) creates a situation where graduate students are forced into a cheap pool of labor. And when a graduate student does wish to take an ethical stand, he is told that he better lose that fantasy cause that's not where the money is at. So what am I to believe of our field. Again your words were truly inspiring because I have met plenty of specialists in my career who really didn't give a damn and the students walked out feeling deprived of an educating enlightening experience. Charles Levy -- http://wizard.ucr.edu/~clevy http://wizard.ucr.edu/praxis From bcc18471@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Sep 12 17:07:00 1997 Received: from cicero.cybercity.dk (cicero.cybercity.dk [195.8.128.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA20962 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:06:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vip.cybercity.dk (usr01.cybercity.dk [195.8.128.201]) by cicero.cybercity.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02210 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:01:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from default (msx-07-1-12.1033.cybercity.dk [195.8.139.13]) by vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA29406 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:52:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199709122252.AAA29406@vip.cybercity.dk> From: "Nico" To: Subject: Re: Book Suggestions, please! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:01:28 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth A. Larsen asked: > 1. I may have an opportunity to teach a course called Ethnic and Minority > Relations in the spring. Can anyone recommend some good books? My areas of > expertise are in criminology, corrections, deviance, delinquency, etc., so > I could really use some suggestions. Thanks! Try Steve Biko's "I write what I like", if you can find it. It's not exactly a sociology textbook (well, not so sure anymore what is and what is not a sociology textbook :)) but it made a profound impression on this whiteboy concerning issues like "race", racism, etc. Any book that can make a white South African think must have some merit... Nico PS - If there's anyone out there whom care about issues not American, the policemen who beated Biko to death (because he chose to stick with the views expressed in the above-mentioned text) are now testifying before South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Sep 12 18:14:27 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id SAA23111 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:14:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id UAA00586; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > The same principle applies to those who ask -- chairs are responsible > for insuring competence in their faculty. > Uh huh. And exactly what is the ASA doing to have department chairs live up to this principle? Horning in on chairlink and saying "stop doing what you've been doing for years!" Oh, what about asking _faculty_ to teach courses outside their area? Especially faculty at small colleges? Jim > >---------- > >From: Jim Cassell > >Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 3:09 PM > >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > >Subject: RE: Marriage and Family > > > >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > > > >> Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short > >> notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the > >> financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, > >> that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of > >> competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such > >> offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, > >> reading, apprenticeship in the area. > >> > >> Carla Howery, ASA > >> > > > >Perhaps the ASA should consider censoring those who make the offer? Or > >are they absolved of an ethical duty to uphold a standard of competence > > > >in all work... > > > >Just a thought, > >Jim > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >~~~~~ > >James Cassell Institute for Research in Social > >Science > >e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North > >Carolina > >Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC > >27599-3355 > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >~~~~~ > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Fri Sep 12 23:07:17 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id XAA29320 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:07:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INKQEYHUQO9BVX0Y@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:06:59 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INKQEV7OEC99DLU7@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id BAA00535 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:06:51 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:06:51 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: 20/20 Episode To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709130506.BAA00535@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> You can usually buy transcripts from the network. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Fri Sep 12 23:30:40 1997 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id XAA00373 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:30:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INKR97BB4G99DOQQ@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:30:41 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INKR95M2A299DP4Z@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id BAA08070 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:31:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 01:31:16 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: teaching competency (was RE: Marriage and Family To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709130531.BAA08070@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short > notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the > financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, > that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of > competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such > offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, > reading, apprenticeship in the area. We're not talking brain surgery or rocket science here. I can become expert in any sociological substantive specialty with less than two months of reading. I may not be an expert practitioner by that time, but I will be totally informed on all the main threads of the disciplinary conversation. Assuming that I meet a reasonable standard of teaching competence-- which is completely unrelated to substantive mastery--I could be ready to teach any undergrad sociology course within a month. I think that Carla is completely missing the real problem here, which is that grads and adjunct instructors are usually not paid a living wage. Referring to the code of ethics does nothing to solve that. From TR.Young@uvm.edu Sat Sep 13 06:35:26 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA04436 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:35:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:35:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.14) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F9DEF930@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 8:35:22 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970913083450.3467a9c4@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: Legio; Re-ligio The discussion on marriage, family and religion occurs primarily within a pre-modern or modernist view of religion. I would like to suggest an affirmative postmodern view of religion might be a good place to start in discussing religious sensibility as it affects both marriage, family and progressive sociology in general. First a definition: The word, religion does not appear in our Bible or in the Koran or the Torah. It is a Latin word scholars use to discuss the teachings of a group of people who sanctify some things and de-sanctify other things. 'Ligio' means 'I bind'...re-ligio means I bind, I bind together. Religion is, in a postmodern view, anything which binds a people together and sanctifies some of the things they do and use. When there is no god-talk involved in efforts to get a people to work together or live together or fight together, we speak, properly, of civil or secular religions. Marxism is much maligned as a 'secular religion.' It teaches that solidarity is key to progressive politics. So it does qualify. Markets are praised in that they work indifferent to the fate of particular workers, consumers, firms or societies...and thus is presumed to be free of religion. All transactions are based upon rational calculation, they say, and thus market societies are modern societies. Postmodern sensibility argues that all such 'stories' involving god or postulating 'fundamental truths' are made up out of a given socio-cultural complex. Nihilistic postmodern sensibility tends to abandon both the knowledge process and the religio process. Affirmative postmodern sensibility need not abandon either. As long as an 'author' of a 'text' openly admits the political and economic and social agenda informing her/his work, then much of the demystification of 'Absolute Truth' is avoided. I have done a bit of work on affirmative postmodern sociology of religion that grad students might like to glance through; these are on the Red Feather Institute Home Page: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/index.htm Among these are: #148 Part I: Postmodern Understandings of the God Concept: Social Justice and the Drama of the Holy by T. R. Young #157 Postmodern Religion and the Global World Order Postmodern Theology and Social Justice by T. R. Young In brief, I accept the Durkheimian view that religion is a social product; that the god-concept is converted from the special experience that comes when a social group is assembled and experiences a power larger than separate families/individuals. Durkheim called this the 'super-organic' ...a happy term in affirmative postmodern sensibility. I agree with Marx that much in traditional religion is alienating; that the god-concept involves the alienation of social power into sacred supernatural power. But Marx worked out of a modernist paradigm and did not appreciate, in my opinion, some of the possibilities of a well-tempered postmodern religious sensibility. I try to augment Marxism and Progressive scholarship with an bit more congenial approach to religion than perhaps most 'radicals' do... Let me know what you think about this effort if you have the time. in solidarity, TR TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sat Sep 13 06:40:00 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA04588 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:39:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0845; Sat, 13 Sep 97 08:40:10 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6577; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:40:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 08:37:07 EDT From: danielle Subject: RE: Marriage and Family To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <970913.084010.EDT.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I too must respond to Carla's comment about "refusing" offers for which a graduate student is not formally prepared. This speaks to the power relationship between grad students and full and tenured professors. After receiving my MA, I was asked to teach a senior seminar on deviance. Having only had one class, I said I did not feel prepared. It was implied that this was not a choice and that there could be come career consequences if I did not prepare *quickly* (they came to me 3 weeks before the class started). I did it, of course, and it was OK. My point being, as a grad student, I was not in the position to refuse a "request" from "higher ups". This power dynamic cannot be ignored, and grad students should not be held responsible for it. danielle at uconn From dcoon@ksu.edu Sat Sep 13 06:48:04 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id GAA05755 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:48:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id HAA21591 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:48:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id HAA21451; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:47:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:47:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Legio; Re-ligio In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970913083450.3467a9c4@pop.uvm.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My Soc of Religion professor said that any "ism" has many of the same characteristics of a religion, the one exception usually being beleif in the supernatural or a diety or dieties. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From dcoon@ksu.edu Sat Sep 13 06:50:08 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id GAA06109 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:50:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id HAA21687 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:50:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id HAA21475; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:50:02 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:50:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: RE: Marriage/Family & Bible In-Reply-To: <970913.084010.EDT.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think I am partly responsible for the massive thread and many flames on this topic. Please understand, it was not my goal to offend anyone, but my goal was simply to make an alternative viewpoint known. I hope my comments and postings did not offend anyone. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From rpalm@unm.edu Sat Sep 13 07:30:10 1997 Received: from lyra.unm.edu (lyra.unm.edu [129.24.8.9]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA07537 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:30:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Sloane(really [198.59.166.124]) by lyra.unm.edu via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:30:42 -0600 (MDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #51 built 1997-Aug-2) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:32:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Rebel To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: rock stars and self-destructive behavior In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970913083450.3467a9c4@pop.uvm.edu> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rpalm@mail.unm.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In my intro soc class, giving an example of how one would set up a research question (dep var, indep var, hypothesis), based on a picture and statement in our textbook, we created a hypothesis that within the field of rock-n-roll, self-destructive behavior would be postively related to notoriety (which was defined loosely as degree of famousness, not necessarily it turns out degree of talent). It was a lot of fun and in the process we saw how issues of measurement would come up. But I was wondering if there is a REAL study about rock and roll stars and self destructive behavior...anyone know of one? Preferably quantitative, just because that was the subject at the time; I'll cover qualitative later. From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Sat Sep 13 08:11:56 1997 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA08576 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:11:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/10.1) id KAA00702; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:11:54 -0400 (GMT+4:00) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:11:52 -0400 From: Pamela Marie Paxton To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: marriage and family thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for your comments David! Actually, now I think I might have given the wrong impression in my post because I was angry. I PERSONALLY think that having two wives is wrong (and that other things such as adultery are wrong). I'm not sure its ethical to TEACH that IN the classroom however. To be frank, I'm worried about both ends of the spectrum represented in this discussion--both Frisky with his 'head in the sand' perspective on the Bible and Christian with his 'uninformed ranting' against Christians and the Bible. Neither attitude in the classroom would represent sociology well. Good sociology includes critical thinking deeper than anything these two gentlemen have displayed. Pam Paxton ps. David, I wouldn't worry about offending anyone. Your comments are among the least offensive in this thread (including, probably, my own!) On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Dave Alan Coon (: wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:52 -0500 (CDT) > From: Dave Alan Coon (: > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: marriage and family thread > > > I agree totally with Pam Paxton's posting.I did not mean to suggest that > it was "wrong" to have more than one wife. Perhaps I should retract that > statement, nothing should be considered right or wrong except in the context > of a society. Nothing is inherently right or wrong, it is only defined as such > by a particular society. American Society (the USA) has tended to > legislate that it is "wrong" or illegal to have more than one wife at a > time, that is what I was getting at. > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > From clarkjs@server.sasw.ncsu.edu Sat Sep 13 16:38:42 1997 Received: from cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.224]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA18857 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:38:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from server.sasw.ncsu.edu (server.sasw.ncsu.edu [152.1.34.18]) by cc09ss.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/NS19Dec96) with ESMTP id SAA20206 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SASW/SpoolDir by server.sasw.ncsu.edu (Mercury 1.31); 13 Sep 97 18:38:55 EST5EDT Received: from SpoolDir by SASW (Mercury 1.31); 13 Sep 97 18:38:30 EST5EDT From: "jacqueline clark" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:37:33 EST Subject: Teaching X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1D31481D2F@server.sasw.ncsu.edu> Given the discussion surrounding teaching, I thought I might mention a book I found at the ASA "bookfair". [Ironic given the "ASA" response we've heard recently.] It's called "Will Teach For Food". Although I haven't had time to really read the whole book yet, what I have read looks good. Thought others might be interested. --jackie clark --north carolina state university --raleigh, north carolina From TR.Young@uvm.edu Sun Sep 14 08:12:50 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA07114; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:12:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:12:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.11) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.BF2C4A90@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; 14 Sep 1997 10:12:46 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970914101214.348f2aa8@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu From: TR Young Subject: Teaching the Sociology of Art Cc: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Many fine resources for teaching the sociology of art have been mentioned recently on AHS, the Humanist Sociology Network. I have two references to suggest; one which has been most useful to me since it was published by Wayne State Press in 1979: A. Marxism and Art by Maynard Solomon. Solomon has done us a great service by extracting from a large literature, some of the best ideas in cultural marxism/critical theory/structural marxism. The Table of Contents can give one an idea of the range and reach of his scholarship; here is a partial list: 1. William Morris: Art, Labor and Socialism--p. 79 2. Antonio Labriola: Forms of Consciousness--p. 96 3. Franz Mehring: Lessing and the drama--p. 106 4. Karl Kautsky: Art and the Conception of God--p.115 5. Georgi Plekhannov: Art and Social Life--p. 128 6. Rosa Luxemburg: On Russian Literature 7. V.I. Lenin: Party Organization and Party Literature--p.179 8. Leon Trotsky: Art and the Party--p. 193 Art and Class--p.196 9. Nikolai Bukharin: What is Art?--p. 205 Poetry--p. 205 10. Anatoly Lunacharshky: Dostoyevsky--p.227 11. Maxim Gorky:: Art and Myth--p.243 12. Yuri Davydov: Tolstoyan View of Art--p. 246 13. Mao Tse Tung: Literature and Revolution--p. 251 14. Jean-Paul Sartre: The Novel and Reality--p. 255 15. W.E.B. DuBois: The anture of intellectual Freedom--p. 259 16. Antonio Gramsci: Marxism and Modern Culture--p. 266 17. Ernst Fischer: Productive Memory--p.272 Note: Fischer deserves special attention. 18. Sidney Finkelstein: Art as Huanization--p. 277 19. Bela Balazs: The Visible Man [woman]--p. 284 20. Mikhail Bakhtin: Laughter and Freedom--p. 295 21. Christopher Caudwell: Illusion and Reality--p. 320 22. Bertold Brecht: Epic Theater--p. 355 Note: all by himself, Brecht is a genre. 23. Adorno and Eisler: The Sociology of the Musician--p. 376 Music and Film--p. 380 24. Georg Lukacs: Shakespere and Historicism--p.400 25. Max Raphael: Notes on the anture of Art--p. 442 Art, Opiate, Transcendence--p. 450 26. F. Engels: the Overthrow of Matriarchy--p. 471 27. Harry Slochower: Lierature and Society--p. 480 28. Alick West: Form: 496 29. Andre Breton: Surealism and Historical Materialism--p. 508 30. Herbert Marcuse: Images of Opheus and Narcissus--p. 524 31. Walter Benjamin: Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction--p. 550 32. Andre malraux: The Work of Art--563 33. Ernst Bloch: On the Threepenny Opera--p. 576 B. Raymond Williams has been a valuable source of insight about class and culture for me over the many years...among the topics he treats are: 1965. The Long Revolution, A Pelican Book. 1. Education and British Society 2. The Growth of the Reading Public 3. The Social History of Dramatic Forms 4. Realism and the Contemporary Novel 1981. Culture, Fontana Paperback. 1. Sociology of Culture 2. Means of Production (of writing, art etc) 3. Forms (of drama) 1977. Marxism and Literature, Oxford University Press 1. Base and Superstructure 2. Hegemony 3. Structures of Feeling 4. Writing 5. Authors 6. Creative Practice Williams has several other books which are well worth the time. trust this helps those who teach sociology of art, ....and don't forget I've done a lot on the Dramaturgical Society; some of which are in the Red Feather Archives: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/index.htm TR Young TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Sep 14 12:51:32 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA14269 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:51:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3611; Sun, 14 Sep 97 14:51:39 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 3357; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:51:39 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 14:31:41 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Will Teach for food To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970914.145139.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I would go a little bit further than what has been discussed thus far. The fact that the person who was asked to take the marriage and family course was told that it make him/her more marketable as an adjunct is in and of itself suggestive of the operative attitude. The fact is (a) very few departments in sociology or the other social sciences/humanities have any notion of funding people for more hours than they actually have to work for the funding; (departments, primarily for reasons having do with program survival (or cynically, maintenance of faculty free-rider benefits) there is a disjunction between median years to Ph.D. and years of funding for students if they receive any money at all (at least UCONN is relatively good at providing resources); and (c) the kind of positions where a promising ABD could be hired by a department as an instructor with the intention of promotion to tenure-track provided they finished their degree within 2-3 years are increasingly rare. I think what is most disturbing is the expectation that a graduate student should expect to be an adjunct (often at more than one institution because most of these positions lack benefits) while working on their dissertation or when first entering the job market. If the discipline fails to see something ethically wrong with this scenario, then one has to question the ethical position of the discipline. Incidentally, although much of will teach for food deals with the Yale Struggle, a good chunk of it is intended as a wake-up call for faculty who think they are immune from the broader changes in higher education. I think one of the more useful proposals in the book is Nelson's proposal that Universities universalize $1500 summer fellowships to all graduate students, with no mandated work requirements in return. Also promising is Washington University's proposal to give full fellowships for six years to all graduate students with no mandated work requirements in return. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Sep 14 13:28:15 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA15498 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:28:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3843; Sun, 14 Sep 97 15:28:24 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6013; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:28:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 15:27:41 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: book "burning" (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970914.152824.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Here is a tidbit for discussion -- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:31:30 -0400 From: jraulett@unccvm.uncc.edu (Judy Aulette) Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: book "burning" X-Sender: jraulett@email.uncc.edu Resent-To: TEACHSOC@POPLAR.LEMOYNE.EDU Resent-To: "teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu"@maple.lemoyne.edu To: TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu Friday I got a call from a reporter named Erica Curless (not sure of spelling) from Gannett News Service (I think they might do USA Today?) (Phone: 703-276-4566 fax: 703-558-3813). she wanted to get my response to a report being released on September l7 by the Institute for Family Values in Washington. The report was written by Norval Glenn, a sociologist from University of Texas, Austin (512-471-1122). The report appeared in the Summer Issue of Journal of Family Relations as a book review of 22 texts in family sociology. The review trashed all of the books and mine came in at the bottom because it was according to Glenn, "entirely feminist propaganda and the most anti-marriage text around". The report to be released argues that family texts as they are currently written are endangering the minds of college students because they are so "anti-family" and makes some proposals about getting rid of them and replacing them with a neutral book (written by members of their institute or approved by them), untainted by feminism or other critical perspectives. I never thought of myself as being for or against marriage. I think the issue is a little more complex than that. I like to encourage my students to question what is a marriage and how is the institution and the personal experience of marriage sometimes problematic, sometimes not but covering a very broad range of possibilities. I also feel strongly that this kind of pseudo-scholarly critique should be countered with some arguments in defense of keeping universities open to many ideas and allowing our students and ourselves to keep an open mind to considering them rather than to having "experts" like Glenn tell us what to read, teach or study. Furthermore, I believe that people can be well-educated and not be feminist but they cannot be well-educated and not know about feminism. I like to think of my book and my classes as one place students can explore this particular set of ideas while they taste many different others in their other courses and readings. At the beginning of this note I list the phone numbers of the reporter and Glenn, in case you would like to share your opinions on these issues. Thanks for having this list so I have someone to share this with. Love, Judy From jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu Sun Sep 14 15:46:35 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA19306 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:46:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709142146.PAA19306@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from s01p04.ppp.uconn.edu by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 14 Sep 97 17:46:42 EDT From: "Jack B. Monpas-Huber" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:49:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) Reply-to: jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Although I have not taught Marriage & Family, I find Glenn's position and proposals both ridiculous and insulting to everyone's intelligence. To be fair, Glenn is entitled to his views. And in this "culture war" (as I suspect he sees this issue), no one is stopping him from retaliating with his own "pro-marriage" texts. But for Glenn to try to impose limits on others' academic freedom is unconscionable. The point of higher education should not be to socialize students to one particular worldview, but to cultivate critical and creative thinking skills. Primary objectives of a sociology class especially should be to apprise students of relevant research and various perspectives on marriage & the family to challenge them to think about these institutions in new ways and encourage them make up their own minds. I hope I am not alone in this view. JACK B. MONPAS-HUBER Doctoral Candidate, Dept. of Sociology University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269-2068 (860) 486-4422 or 486-4073 jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu or JHuber1069@aol.com From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Sep 14 16:29:37 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA21784 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:29:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4461; Sun, 14 Sep 97 18:29:47 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 8703; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:29:48 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 18:28:01 EDT From: danielle Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <199709142146.PAA19306@csf.Colorado.EDU> Message-Id: <970914.182947.EDT.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT No Jack, you are NOT alone in your thinking!!! The beauty of being exposed to different viewpoints is the diversity of thought that results (or the potential thereof), and the new ways of looking at life, and people, and society that emerge. Anyone who wants to curtail diversity of ideas should be curtailed themselves. Danielle Currier also at UCONN From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Sep 15 00:24:01 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id AAA03816 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INNLOH5D5C9BW6JY@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:23:42 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INNLOEERAS99DM7P@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id CAA22144 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:24:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:24:12 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709150624.CAA22144@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I also feel strongly that this kind of pseudo-scholarly critique >should be countered with some arguments in defense of keeping universities >open to many ideas and allowing our students and ourselves to keep an open >mind to considering them rather than to having "experts" like Glenn tell us >what to read, teach or study. This strikes me as a bit disingenuous. My guess is that if someone in your school wanted to begin teaching that patriarchy creates the best social outcomes, that dark-skinned races are intellectually inferior, or to open up a Center for the Rehabilitation of Hitler, that you would be opposing it on normative grounds rather than keeping an open mind and arguing for the inclusion of diverse ideas. Just as Glenn opposes your work on normative grounds. The intellectual marketplace will always be shaped by political considerations, and there's no way to opt out of that. The only rational response to criticism is to fight for your ideas, rather than complaining that someone is being too political in his critique of your work. From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Mon Sep 15 06:42:16 1997 Received: from smtp2.utexas.edu (smtp2.utexas.edu [128.83.126.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA10066 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:42:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 2069 invoked from network); 15 Sep 1997 12:42:26 -0000 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (128.83.126.1) by smtp2.utexas.edu with SMTP; 15 Sep 1997 12:42:26 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-115-1.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.168.97]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA08658 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:42:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341D2CF9.23F6@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:41:29 -0500 From: Bob Woldman MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) References: <970914.152824.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This post sounds very out of character for my buddy Norvell. I suspect the reporter grossly exaggerated Prof. Glenn's piece. I cannot find a JOURNAL OF FAMILY RELATIONS in our library's catalog, and unfortunately he's out of town this week. Can someone else out there look at the article and see what it really says? Best, Bob -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 06:45:27 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id GAA10195 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:45:13 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:43:09 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874353338; Mon, 15 Sep 97 13:45:13 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 13:45:13 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874353338@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Hi David, You have made the following statements: (1). That Bible says women are second class citizens (2). That the Bible states that women are man's property (3). That the Bible states that women would not go to Heaven when they die! (wherever this heaven is!) (4). etc. etc. etc. (which etceteras you would probably make us aware pof un the future!). These statements are in themselves very androcentric. Despite that fact that you've been cautioned that no sections in the Bible state or imply any such stuff, you're trying to hide behind some old "professor" of yours. Definitely, this "professor" of yours, who you claim has a Ph.D. in theology and is also a UM minister has some kind of access to e-mail. I suggest that you invite him to CONFIRM to all of us that he taught you exactly those statements you have made above (WITH PROOF FROM THE BIBLICAL TEXTS). Otherwise, we on socgrad take it that you are responsible for what you say, because as at now, there is no proof that what you claim was told you by your "professor" was exactly taught you by him! We're just not sure who is lying here. Maybe perhaps in the future you need to cross check anything that any "professor" tells you, and not be too academically gullible. Afterall that is what the realm of academia is about! We wil be happy to hear from the "horse's" own mouth, otherwise, David, you would have to withdraw your statements. Because we consider them as an attempt at academic abuse and deception, very typical in the social sciences, and which needs to be dealt with on this socioolgy forum. You can't just say anything and get away with it. Somebody would also try to impart the fallacies you have communicated somewhere. You will be aware that like many other textbooks, there are sections where the author deliberates and discusses or takes account of other paradigms, accounts, theories, etc. which are in existence, as DISTINCT from where the author states specifically what he/she thinks. You would perhaps notice that instance of concubinage, polygamy and polygyny in the Bible are accounts of instances, and are DISTINCT from specific sections where instructions on the subject are given, eg: (1). Exodus 20:17 states "Thou shalt not covet they neighbour's wife......" (2). 1 Corinthians 7:2 states that" let each man have his own wife; and let each woman have her own husband" EMPHASIZING ONE-TO-ONE RELATIONSHIPS. (3). 1 Corinthians 7:$ states "the wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way the, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time......"THIS INDICATES MUTUAL OWNERSHIP OF ONE ANOTHER. THERE IS NO INDICATION HERE THAT THE WOMAN IS THE MAN'S PROPERTY!. You see, David, the Bible is available for anyone to research and quote from, (one does not have to be a Christian or a theologian to read the Bible). I suggest that as an academic you check your references before you start deceiving people on socgrad. There is nothing like "the gospel of Peter" whether by any "Convaluded Reference" - whatever that means. This is another indication of your lack of knowledge of the very stuff you wish to communicate. I'm afraid you would need to state which specific sections in the Old Testament state that the earth is flat! You can't just say anything and get away with it, lest you blame it on some "professor" next time! David, you're the one who first said on this forum that the Bible states when a women die they would not go to heaven, so please do not go about saying that Christians are judgemental. Please leave the Christians alone. I do not think anyone has identified him/herself as a Christian in this debate. This a purely academic debate that we are asking you to prove what you're dishing out. I hope you're not trying to shift the debate into some super-religious stuff. Perhaps I need to ask you what explanation the theory of evolution has for the existence and operation of vampires! I THINK IT IS ABOUT TIME WE HAD SOME ACADEMIC RESPONSIBILITY ON SOCGRAD. David, please bring in your "professor" for explanation, or cough up the answers yourself, or better still withdraw your statements. cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 15:24 The professor WAS an ordained United Methodist Minister, did quote the exact Bible verses, Bbut I do not have them here. As for referring to women as property, I don't know the exact verse, but If I am not mistaken several times throught the Old Testament and New Testmant (including one refrence by the 10Commandments in KJV) The Bible Refers to "A man's wife and his other PROPERTY" inmplying that a man's wife is his property. Also, if you argue that the Bible has never been wrong, how do you address the fact that many persons in the Old Testament have several wives? In the gospel of Peter, it makes a Convaluded Refrence, that "And if a Man is Married, his wife shall not have eternal life" I will try to get the exact verse if I can. In the Old Testament, verses in Numbers, Exodus, Ezikiel refer to "the Four corners of the earth" Why do religous types dismiss evolution? Of the 2 Creation stories in Genisis, one of them says that God Created the Animals first, then he created man all in 7 days, several other verses in scripture say that "A day is 1,000 years in the eyes of the Lord," maybe they left out a few extra zeros by mistake, then evolution fits in with the Bible. Charles Darwin never said that Man descended from Monkeys, all he said basically was what Sociologist Herbert Specencer called "Survival of the fittest," Those members species that have genes resistant to a particular ailment will be the only ones to survive to reproduce the next generation, and as a result SPECIES CHANGE OVER TIME! All Darwin Said is that Species Change over time, this is not contradictary in any way to the Biblical Creation story, you can observe this phenomon occuring in the world around us. How anyone can be a Christian and go around judging wether other people will be "saved" or will "parish for eternal life" is beyond me, becuase their own Bible says that "Jusgement is mine sayeth the Lord." Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 07:03:20 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA11246 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:03:12 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:52:34 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874353875; Mon, 15 Sep 97 13:48:05 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 13:48:05 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874353875@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Cc: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage and Family Well, David, we haven't seen the posting with references. I hope it is not the one which says "the gospel of Peter" because there is nothing like that in the Bible. We hope to hear from you. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Author: "Dave Alan Coon (:" at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 16:34 I don't know if the message went out (this mail system is screwed up) but I did send one message with specific evidence cited by the prof, if it did not go through, I'll be happy to supply the specific refrences again. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 07:34:59 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA12647 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:34:52 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:08:31 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874354771; Mon, 15 Sep 97 14:09:16 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 14:09:16 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874354771@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: marriage and family thread >I feel that we are really starting to lose any sort of thread in our >discussion of marriage and the family and the bible. (read: it appears to >be fast getting out of control) >#1) we need to be careful in our use of "wrong." David Coon writes that the >bible must be wrong because it talks about men having two wives. That >may be literally/factually "true." According to our current >(American) moral sentiments it may be "wrong." Assuming that there IS >some absolute truth out there (and some could argue that there isn't) >we can NOT know what it is. Our scientific and moral theories just >give us slate of beliefs to choose from. Talking about "wrong" in >this context seems pretty useless. Hi Pamela, I hope that you're not trying to bail David out in this matter! Whatever you're attempting to do, please find (reproduced below) what exactly David said. David Coon never said anything about polygamy in the Bible. He and a guy called Christian are the first people who used the word "WRONG" in this debate, so you might have to direct your query at them. Perhaps you might also want to tell us where the Bible or God specifically instructed that polygamy was advisable. ******************************************************************************** Well, when I had an undergrad course in Marriage and Family, my professor had a BA and MA and theology with a PhD in SOciology, and he could not help but point out how wrong the bible was with regard to family (and with regard to religon in general in his Soc of Religion Class). He showed us several instances where the bible refers to women as "property" and he quoted a verse from Peter that says women cannot go to Heaven. In the Soc of Rel class he read a verse that said the earth is flat and has four corners. Illness are caused by evil spirits, not bacteria or viruses, the earth "stood still" while Joshua was fighting the Huterites...etc.... The Bible, particulary in the gospels of Peter, potrays women as inferior to men and as second class citizens. Given this, and Given that Peter says women cannot go to heaven in KJV and NIV versions of the bible, I find it interesting that women are the most religiously active. He saw the bible as reflecting "The Modern scientific view of the time in which it was written." The Marriage & Family book we used for that class was Lasswell and Lasswell, _Marriage_&_the_Family_, 1991, Belmont, CA: Wadsworth. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== ******************************************************************************** >#2) how the bible should be used in a marriage and the family class >is debatable but its hard to imagine using it in any normative way. As >sociologists we are supposed to EXPLAIN things. We might have an >opinion about whether adultery is right or wrong, but we should probably >not TEACH it one way or another--unless the class is explicitly morally >oriented (as in a Christian college). I CAN see using the bible in a >course to illustrate either a) history or b) a text that many americans >consider to be quite important in deciding how to arrange their >marriages. I'm not sure it would be useful if used in other ways >(although I'm open to suggestions). I think that the Bible is also a sociology textbook, and very useful in sociology. If you doubt this please ask the Sociologists in the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion (SSSR) based in the U.S.A. (Purdue University Sociology Department). If sociologists are supposed to EXPLAIN things as you said (and this is just a microcosm of the role of sociologists!) do you not think that the bibligrophic source where the very first record of marriage and family are cited is relevant? >#3) I think its hard to argue that the bible doesn't say some negative >things about women (see my previous post for some exact references). >Sure, some modern translations/interpretations try to >hide that fact. That's an issue that needs to be dealt with both in >personal faith and in teaching the bible. Sweeping issues under the rug is >ineffective and makes individuals who do so look uninformed. Exactly, that is why David Coon needs to tell us where exactly the Bible states that women would not go to heaven when they die, and that women are a man's property! >Sincerely, >Pam Paxton ******************************** >Pamela Paxton >Department of Sociology >University of North Carolina >CB#3210, Hamilton Hall >Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 >email: ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu ******************************** cheers, frisky. From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Sep 15 07:58:31 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA13814 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:58:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fox (dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id IAA24473 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:58:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: by fox (SMI-8.6/1.34) id IAA20652; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:58:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:58:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible In-Reply-To: <9708158743.AA874353338@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought this thread was over, but nonetheless I feel compelled to respond to these statements. On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Hi David, > > You have made the following statements: > (1). That Bible says women are second class citizens What I said was that the Bible tends to treat women as second class citizens, one need only read Pam Paxton's posting for a whole bunch of specific verses which indicate this. I am almost certian that I never went so far as to say that the Bible explicity "says that women are second class citizens," and I do not appreciate your misquoting me. > (2). That the Bible states that women are man's property I have already addressed this point in previous postings > (3). That the Bible states that women would not go to Heaven > when they die! (wherever this heaven is!) One need only read the Gospels of Peter to see where it says this. Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From czerlinski@mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de Mon Sep 15 08:04:58 1997 Received: from canetoad.mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de (canetoad.mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de [192.129.1.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA14074 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:04:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mac29.mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de by canetoad.mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/25Oct95-1145AM) id AA02005; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:04:44 +0200 X-Sender: rjean@canetoad.mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:04:46 +0200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: czerlinski@mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de (Jean Czerlinski) Subject: interpreting the Bible: the good and the bad of it Cc: a.schwarz@mpipf-muenchen.mpg.de Hello fellos socgradders..... All great texts, such as the Bible, are great in part because they are MULTIVOCAL-- they can be interpreted in many different ways and sometimes even make explicitly contradictory statements (and part of the challenge of interpreting is resolving these statements). The Bible has been used to justify Crusades and subjugation as often as it has been used to justify helping the poor and striving for world peace as often as it has been used to justify a retreat into private spirituality and mysticism. The Bible can also readily be stretched to cover cases of the modern world that it never could have anticipated, such as abortion. If it had not been possible to use the Bible in so many ways, it probably would not have lasted as long as it has, as one of the most important texts of our culture. (By the way, the Koran has likewise been used both to justify "bad" uses such as holy wars and "good" uses such as giving to the poor.) Thus, a discussion of "what the Bible says" is bound to lead to millions of different interpretations and claims and counter-claims. Of course, there are good arguments about why some of these are BETTER than others, especially if by "better" we mean "relative to our society and the current age". But basically one CANNOT claim that it is IMPOSSIBLE to use the Bible to argue for e.g. polygamy or women as second-class citizens. Of course it can be used to argue for those things! It has often been used that way, longer than it has been used to argue for one-to-one marriages and gender equality, which it can also be used to arge for. As I said, it is multivocal, and that is part of what makes it great. The question is not so much whether the Bible can be used to support X or not-X, but which interpretation we think fits best, for us and our society. So let's try to focus on that part of the question. Can we fruitfully enough interpret the Bible for our age that it is worth keeping and referring to and using as one of our greatest texts? (Other ages and places have fruitfully interpreted it for their purposes and values and lifestyles-- can we?) I don't mean the interpretation is totally, postmodernly arbitrary. It does place some loose bounds and does put some checks on us. But if there is a God, and if He/She/It wanted to give us guides for life, I strongly believe they would be flexible guides that can change and be newly interpreted as the situation and world changes and develops. The only drawback to such wonderfully adaptive guides is that they can also be misused for wrong purposes (Crusades, murder, injustice). But such unfortunate abuse is worth all the flexibility the rest of us gain. Best wishes in finding your guides for you lives, Jean Jean Czerlinski Center for Adaptive Behavior and Cognition Max Planck Institute for Psychological Research Leopoldstrasse 24, 80802 Munich, Germany From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Sep 15 08:05:35 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA14111 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:05:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fox (dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id JAA26684 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:05:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: by fox (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA21397; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:05:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:05:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: marriage and family thread In-Reply-To: <9708158743.AA874354771@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk has so kindly reproduced my original posting, you should be able to clearly say I sued the word "potrayed," a far cry from going so far as to actually state that the Bible "Says women are second class citizens." Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Mon Sep 15 08:14:42 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA14480 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:14:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:12:29 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:07:54 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Subject: Start from WHERE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline No disrespect intended, but are you really suggesting that the Bible has a sociological perspective? One might argue that some contemporary constructions of marriage and family are influenced by Biblical ideas, but I would hardly consider the book a piece of sociological literature. And why suggest only the Bible? Why not also the Talmud, Koran, Upanishads, Tao Teh Ching. . . ? Surely such a cross-cultural comparison would be fruitful for a marriage and family class Funny, I thought teaching sociology was about expanding the perspectives of students. Anyway, why would an omniscient being need to do sociology? Just wondering. . . David Katz Loyola University Chicago From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Sep 15 08:23:18 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA14732 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:23:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fox (dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id JAA02743 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:23:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: by fox (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA23486; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:23:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:23:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: Graduate Students International Sociology Subject: BibleVerse women cannot go to Heaven Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1 Peter 3:7 "Likewise, you husbans, live with your wives with understanding, and hold them hold them with tenderness like delicate vessels, because they shall not inherit the gift of everlasting life; do this that you may not be hindered in your praryers." THis may spark some contreversy because it is from the "Holy Bible: From the Ancient Eastern Text, George M. Lamsa's Translation from the Aramaic of the Phisetta." While the KJV was translated from Greek & Herew, Lamsa grew up speaking Aramiac ((syriac), the Language that Jesus spoke. He tranlated the Original text ofg the Peshita directly to English, and his work has been widely hailed by Scholars of all faiths as a more accurate Translation. Roman Catholics, Episcopals, Southern Baptists, Presbeyterians, Methodists, scholars from these denominations have praised Lamsa. The Peshita is the Bible used by the Church of the east and Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches. Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Sep 15 11:18:09 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA21539 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id NAA16299; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:16:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:16:56 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <341D2CF9.23F6@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Bob Woldman wrote: > This post sounds very out of character for my buddy Norvell. I suspect > the reporter grossly exaggerated Prof. Glenn's piece. I cannot find > a JOURNAL OF FAMILY RELATIONS in our library's catalog, and > unfortunately he's out of town this week. Can someone else out there > look at the article and see what it really says? > > Best, > > Bob Someone over on teachsoc mentioned that Scanzioni (I think) reviewed Glenn's report in FAMILY RELATIONS. I'm guessing it's the lastest issue, if someone wants to check. Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From conversa@iac.net Mon Sep 15 11:27:13 1997 Received: from iac.net (crystal.iac.net [199.6.32.156]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA21773 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:27:12 -0600 (MDT) From: conversa@iac.net Received: from ip041133.iac.net (ip041133.iac.net [199.6.41.133]) by iac.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA20594 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970915172640.006ad2d4@iac.net> X-Sender: conversa@iac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:26:40 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: BibleVerse women cannot go to Heaven At 09:23 AM 9/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >1 Peter 3:7 "Likewise, you husbans, live with your wives with >understanding, and hold them hold them with tenderness like delicate >vessels, because they shall not inherit the gift of everlasting life; do >this that you may not be hindered in your praryers." > >THis may spark some contreversy because it is from the "Holy Bible: From >the Ancient Eastern Text, George M. Lamsa's Translation from the >Aramaic of the Phisetta." > >While the KJV was translated from Greek & Herew, Lamsa grew up speaking >Aramiac ((syriac), the Language that Jesus spoke. He tranlated the >Original text ofg the Peshita directly to English, and his work has been >widely hailed by Scholars of all faiths as a more accurate Translation. >Roman Catholics, Episcopals, Southern Baptists, Presbeyterians, >Methodists, scholars from these denominations have praised Lamsa. The >Peshita is the Bible used by the Church of the east and Greek and >Russian Orthodox Churches. > >Sincerely, > >Dave Al Coon >http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon >MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 >Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ >Kansas State University >============================================================================== >"Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" >--W.I. Thomas >============================================================================== > > Mr. Coon: I would like to point out the following: As I understand it, the original language for the writings of the "New Testament", especially the letters or "epistles" was Greek, not Aramaic. Therefore, while the Peshita is a version that is used in the East and Mr. Lamsa's translation is considered very accurate, I would very much prefer to refer to translations from the Greek. I normally do not respond to this type of e-mail, but this one caught my attention. Cordially, Rafael Ortiz Director of Translation Services Conversa Language Center From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 11:36:46 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA22075 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:36:43 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:36:29 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874370939; Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:40:16 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:40:16 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874370939@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Getting the balance right! The issue about the role or place of women in the sociology of social roles within marriage, family, politics, employment etc. seems to be a thorny issue, and one which seems to be have been misinterpreted and grossly misapplied against the interests of women. Popular among the arrogated scenarios are: that women are:- (1). "second class citizens" and (2). a man's property. The latest and most outrageous of them is that women would not go to heaven when they die! -(wherever this heaven is). Surely God is that chauvinist he doesn't want women in His kingdom!!! Why on earth would He create them then. What makes these unfortunate arrogated scenarios even more preposterous is that they seem to be mis-supported by some biblical quotations. SUSCEPTIBILITY TO SPIRITUAL DECEPTION. I think what needs to be noted is that the only times where the Bible makes exceptions to the role of women is strictly in the CHRISTIAN PULPIT MINISTRY, AND THE EXERCISING OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS IN THE CHURCH, but not in the larger societal roles. As it is written in 1 Timothy 2:11-13, the Bible states "........I do not permit women to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner....." This is to do with the exercising of ministerial offices and gifts in the Church, and the restriction is based on SUSCEPTIBILITY TO SPIRITUAL ATTACK AND DECEPTION. Here, the Bible makes it clear that all things being equal, the woman is more susceptible to spiritual deception than the man, and as a result of that spiritual leadership and the exercising of offices and gifts in the church should be within the domain of male leadership. The Bible makes it clear that it was Eve who was deceived by satan and not Adam. The Bible makes allowance for this. Where a woman is married (in which case her spiritual and natural headship is in place), she is allowed to exercise Christian pulpit ministry. The case of Aquila and Priscilla highlights this allowance. The Bible states in Acts 2:26, that Aquila and Priscilla together hijacked Apollos (a learned preacher and public debater who still had a few shady areas to sort out doctrinally) to their home and "explained to him the way of God more adequately". Also the Bible states in Romans 16:3, that Aquila and Priscilla are both referred to as "fellow-workers in Christ Jesus". Thus Priscilla was both a teacher and a Christian worker, obviously with her husband Aquila as her immediate head. Please note that nowhere in the Bible is it stated that women should be subject to men in the secular setting eg; in employment situations or politics. Please also not that the ONLY INSTANCES outside the Church that the Bible indicates male headship is within a marital situation. The Bible states in 1 Corinthians 11:3 "THE head of THE woman is the husband". Other versions have THE head of THE woman is THE man". Please note that whereas within the same verse the Bible states that the head of EVERY MAN is Christ, it doesn't say that the head of EVERY WOMAN is man. It states that "THE HEAD of THE woman is (THE) MAN", thus signifying specific marital relationships and situations. Thus, a colleague at any work place does not head a woman just because he is male! Therefore women must be liberated from this "second class citizens" arrogation within the secular setting. It is unbiblical. This susceptibility to spiritual attack even applies to unmarried males who are seeking leadership within the church setting. The Bible states in 1 Timothy 3:2 that "the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife......." This is because men are also susceptible to female seduction, therefore the Bible instructs that males looking for oversight roles in the church (AND CHURCH ALONE) shoul be married. They then become less liable to sexual seduction. PRIMUS INTER-PARIS: In marital instances where the Bible arrogates headship to the male, it is to do with democratic decision-making, whereby, in case of indecision, apathy or disagreement, one person should be elected to make the decision. It is more a case of primus inter-paris than any first- or second-class citizenry. I will give two illustrations. (A). Within a team of a board of trustees of any company, all trustees have equal rights, and the chairman of the board of trustees is also an ordinary trustee. The board of trustees elects the chairman, and one of his/her duties is to make a final decision only when there is a tie in decision-making. Please note that this chair person has been elected by the trustees themselves to tip the balance when it comes to decision-making and voting. He/she is only a pruimus inter-paris in the situation, and not above any of the other trustees. The same is to do with the marital situation where the male is primus inter-paris. The woman is never a second class citizen. (B). Prseident Clinton of USA is a primus inter-paris. He is only president because he has been elected to perform on behalf of the people of USA. Before the law he is equal with everybody else. That is why Paula has every right to take legal action against Bill Clinton for the sexual harassment allegation. They are both equal before the law. Paul is not a second class citizen, and Bill Clinton is not a first class citizen in USA. He is only a primus inter-paris. This is the ideal type of scenario that the Bible depicts in the marrital situation. The women is never a second-class citizen, as some people allege the Bible to say. PROPERTY: Lastly, the woman is never a man's property in any marital situation. As far as the Bible is concerned, both the husband and the wife have equal rights to each other's bodies and property. The Bible states in 1 Corithians 7:3-6 "The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, then come together again so that satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control" So we realize here that each partner has BOTH EQUAL CLAIMS AND RIGHTS OVER THE OTHER'S BODY, AND THAT IT IS ONLY BY MUTUAL CONSENT THAT ONE CAN ABSTAIN FORM THE OTHER, AND THAT WHEN ONE "ASKS FOR IT", THE OTHER SIMPLY HAS TO COMPLY EXCEPT BY MUTUAL CONSENT TO ABSTAIN FOR A PERIOD OF TIME!. We therefore realize that this hoax arrogation to women as being man's property is crap and unbiblical. I hope this helps. cheers, frisky. (a sociologist) From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 11:48:40 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA22695 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:48:37 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:48:12 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874371603; Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:48:30 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:48:30 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874371603@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage and Family Hi Brent, You couldn't be more right sir! The Bible is "just part" of the sources of knowledge on the subject of marriage and family, and definitely, society has gone through loads of transformations. Your quest for any empirical evidence regarding Adam & Eve being the first family is really appreciable and very sociological. At least the genealogical evidence in the Bible would form part of the empirical evidence. Meanwhile, have you got any evidence to prove that Adam & Eve were not the first marital couple and family? cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage and Family Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 17:09 Hello folks, Obviously the bible and more importantly the infuence of the bible's words on the creation of the family as an institution would be part of a sociological investigation. But that does not mean we have to take the hypothetical constructs within the bible as a starting point for investigation. I think that many people in the U.S. who are religious do not take all the passages in the bible as god sent. We see people altering vows in order to accomodate modern conceptions of gender roles within the family, as well as people being hitched at the courthouse. Clearly the influence of the bible and the religions based on these writing are important to our conception of family, but it is unclear how these writings form a sociological perspective on their own. For me, to understand the family today, social trandformations of the past 50 years are of more critical importance that the history as presented in the bible. If pushed, i would go as far back as "the great transformation" to posit the modern conception of a traditional family (as illustrated by Parsons). This means that economic, political, and demographic changes have played an important role in the development of family. As for science. How on earth can you prove that Adam and Eve were the first family? If we are at all interested in empirical evidence, which to a small degree i think is important, where would the data come from? We know of Adam and Eve only from the data that was supplied in the bible, they didn't leave any proof positive did they? I'm talking about notes, writings, shoes, fig leaves or something of that kind. Kids don't count. what do we know about this family.. who took out the garbage, who raised the kids, how do we know if we know? ****************** Brent Myer student of society MU c646827@showme.missouri.edu From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 11:51:37 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA22863 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:51:36 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:51:23 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874371839; Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:53:01 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 18:53:01 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874371839@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family You call the Bible a "cultural text", but refuse to call it a textbook! I appreciate my semanticizing here, but could you please give us a definition of what a textbook is sir/madam? >Very sensible comments here, Bob, with which I concur. I also see the >bible as a cultural text, but to call it a "textbook is bizarre" as if >films, fictional works, political tracts, graffiti, and advertisments >were also textbooks. Reminds me somewhat of the confusions over the >differences between "social" and "sociological." >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Bob Woldman wrote: > >> The Bible is not a textbook. It is a collection of sacred > writings. I believe most theologians would agree with me on this. >> The Bible does not put forth any theories of any kind. It cannot >> be the basis for scientific investigation, and should not be the > basis for social UNDERSTANDING, but rather the basis for faith and >> religious practice. The students will be there to learn sciology >> of the family not the Christian theology of the family. >> From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:03:15 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA23622 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:03:12 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:02:56 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874372502; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:06:45 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:06:45 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874372502@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family >I feel this is getting a little silly. I do not want to >keep beating a dead horse, but I simply must respond to this. >Of course we as sociologists should observe religion as a >sociological phenomena. I do not think that was what we are >talking about. You want to view it as an ultimate authority for >science and research. I as a non-christian student would feel >cheated an offended if a class were taught from this perspective. >As for scientific proof for the reserrection, you put a >hefty amount of faith in very scant and questionable evidence. >are you this accepting of stonger scientific evidence that goes >againt your pre-existing beliefs? say evolution? >Best, >Bob >-- >======================================================================= >= Bob Woldman >bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The >University of Texas at Austin >======================================================================= Bob, Its nice of you to chip in, which is what this forum is about. But I perhaps need to remind you that I never said that the Bible should be viewed "as an ultimate authority for science and research". I suggested it as part of the bibliography on the subject of marriage and family. I think it would be very unacademic to feel "cheated" if the Bible was referred to in an acadamic class. Maybe the word "silly" is not the right one to use on this forum. Could you perhaps explain what you mean by "scanty and questionable" evidence, and what evidence you think is "scanty and questionable". I'm sure you're aware that in sociology, observable evidence is not based on faith or belief. Also, could you give us any evidence that the thory of evolution has on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. cheers, frisky. From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:16:56 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA24687 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:16:52 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:16:36 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874373346; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:21:21 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:21:21 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874373346@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Christian, we are debating against the following three statements made by David Coon:- (1). The Bible states that women are second class citizens. (2). That women are man's property. (3). That women would not go to heaven when they die (wherever this heaven is). If there should be anybody to bring evidence to support any of the above points, it must be David, not me. Since he must be accountable for his outrageous academic claims, especially if he has no proof for them, you perhaps have to direct your anger at him! Maybe I need to ask you: what is "simple fact" without evidence? It is infact no fact at all. The fact still remains that Dave either has to withdraw his statements or bring evidence to support it. It is interesting to note that you have also added a fourth outrageous claim (4). "The Bible is the guidebook to the ideology of slavery". Christian, could you please provide any evidence in the Bible to support this? That is how real you can be. We are waiting for any positive answers. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 20:00 I disagree. I think it shows us how outdated the bible is. The bible does state that a women is man's property (simple fact). Since you claim to be the resident Bible scholar (you're the one who recommended it as a key text on marriage!!!), perhaps you should tell us where it is exactly stated. Didn't you also state some asinine thing about the bible never being wrong!!! The bible is the guidebook to the ideology of slavery. It tells the slave that this world may be horrible but there is salvation at the end of the tunnel. Thus, no reason to fight for your liberty now, better to just wait it out!!! The bible's political stance places social structures on solid ideological foundations rather than forcing the issue here and now--do you really think that we should wait for liberation till we die? Spiritually and politically liberation must be strived for in the real world and not some fantasy land called heaven. One las thing is god of the male gender? Are there any books in the bible authored by women? Frisky: Get real. The bible is a bunch of bullshit--best study to help understand why things in this world are so wrong and then left in the dustbin of history. Best, Christian From conroyt@bu.edu Mon Sep 15 12:21:41 1997 Received: from acs4.bu.edu (ACS4.BU.EDU [128.197.154.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA25016 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:21:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs4.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id OAA177142 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:21:28 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: ASA Ethical Codes and Grad student employment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Carla and list, Not that I think that turning down work is necessarily a bad idea in some instances, but since you have raised this issue, I would be interested in seeing some further discussion about the ethics (or non-ethics) of employment as this pertains to grad students (or those attemping to complete their degrees and to make the transition) and the role that such an agency as the ASA might play. For example, it would be nice to see a shift away from assistant prof candidates having to send - in a addition to CVs and cover letters - other supporting materials in the initial round of the application process. While it may be a convenience for reviewers to have these materials, it is burdensome and costly to have to provide them. Some of us come out of programs that don't provide any financial support for job application related mailing and photocopying. I would love for the ASA to apply a bit of moral pressure on departments to consider simplifying this process and only requiring "supporting materials" to be sent if a candidate has made it past the first cut. This is just one of a number of concerns I have. We should be discussing the ethics of our roles as graduate student-sociologists and discussing the "ethics" of a job market that can only function now, it would seem, on the (sometimes exploited) backs of a lower tiered set of workers. Tom Conroy conroyt@acs.bu.edu On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short > notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the > financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, > that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of > competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such > offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, > reading, apprenticeship in the area. > > Carla Howery, ASA > From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:28:01 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA25381 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:27:58 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:27:40 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874374005; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:28:54 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:28:54 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874374005@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Start from WHERE? David Katz, I think you can suggest any litertaure you like, so please provide any long list. I have added the Bible to the long list of bobliography. Now let me put you on the spot: you claim that "some contemporary constructions of marriage and family are influenced by Biblical ideas", but then you say that the Bible is not sociological literature. Excuse me sir! Are you alright? Also please define what "sociological literature" is. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Start from WHERE? Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 20:29 No disrespect intended, but are you really suggesting that the Bible has a sociological perspective? One might argue that some contemporary constructions of marriage and family are influenced by Biblical ideas, but I would hardly consider the book a piece of sociological literature. And why suggest only the Bible? Why not also the Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Tao Teh Ching. . . shall I go on? (Insert your own scathing remark about narrow perspectives here. I'm too angry to write one) David Katz Loyola University Chicago From meisel@sobek.Colorado.EDU Mon Sep 15 12:32:39 1997 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA25605 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:32:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from meisel@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id MAA09355; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:32:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Meisel Joshua To: Sociology Graduate Students - International Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "Frisky", On what basis are you speaking for subscribers to the socgrads list?????? Your comments are your comments only and any reference to a collective "we" is totally inappropriate and unacceptable. Take a look at the following for insight into the role that Christianity played in justifying and legitimizing the slave trade: AUTHOR Fredrickson, George M., 1934- TITLE White supremacy : a comparative study in American and South African history / George M. Fredrickson. -- PUBLISHER New York : Oxford University Press, 1981. DESCRIPT. xxv, 356 p. : maps ; 22 cm. SIGNING SINCERELY, Josh Meisel On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Hi David, > > You have made the following statements: > (1). That Bible says women are second class citizens > (2). That the Bible states that women are man's property > (3). That the Bible states that women would not go to Heaven > when they die! (wherever this heaven is!) > (4). etc. etc. etc. (which etceteras you would probably make > us aware pof un the future!). > > These statements are in themselves very androcentric. > Despite that fact that you've been cautioned that no > sections in the Bible state or imply any such stuff, you're > trying to hide behind some old "professor" of yours. > Definitely, this "professor" of yours, who you claim has a > Ph.D. in theology and is also a UM minister has some kind of > access to e-mail. I suggest that you invite him to CONFIRM > to all of us that he taught you exactly those statements you > have made above (WITH PROOF FROM THE BIBLICAL TEXTS). > Otherwise, we on socgrad take it that you are responsible > for what you say, because as at now, there is no proof that > what you claim was told you by your "professor" was exactly > taught you by him! We're just not sure who is lying here. > Maybe perhaps in the future you need to cross check anything > that any "professor" tells you, and not be too academically > gullible. Afterall that is what the realm of academia is > about! > > > We wil be happy to hear from the "horse's" own mouth, > otherwise, David, you would have to withdraw your > statements. Because we consider them as an attempt at > academic abuse and deception, very typical in the social > sciences, and which needs to be dealt with on this socioolgy > forum. You can't just say anything and get away with it. > Somebody would also try to impart the fallacies you have > communicated somewhere. > > You will be aware that like many other textbooks, there are > sections where the author deliberates and discusses or > takes account of other paradigms, accounts, theories, etc. > which are in existence, as DISTINCT from where the author > states specifically what he/she thinks. You would perhaps > notice that instance of concubinage, polygamy and polygyny > in the Bible are accounts of instances, and are DISTINCT > from specific sections where instructions on the subject are > given, eg: > (1). Exodus 20:17 states "Thou shalt not covet they > neighbour's wife......" > (2). 1 Corinthians 7:2 states that" let each man have his > own wife; and let each woman have her own husband" > EMPHASIZING ONE-TO-ONE RELATIONSHIPS. > (3). 1 Corinthians 7:$ states "the wife's body does not > belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way > the, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but > also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual > consent and for a time......"THIS INDICATES MUTUAL OWNERSHIP > OF ONE ANOTHER. THERE IS NO INDICATION HERE THAT THE WOMAN > IS THE MAN'S PROPERTY!. > > You see, David, the Bible is available for anyone to research and quote from, > (one does not have to be a Christian or a theologian to read the Bible). I > suggest that as an academic you check your references before you start deceiving > people on socgrad. There is nothing like "the gospel of Peter" whether by any > "Convaluded Reference" - whatever that means. This is another indication of your > lack of knowledge of the very stuff you wish to communicate. I'm afraid you > would need to state which specific sections in the Old Testament state that the > earth is flat! You can't just say anything and get away with it, lest you blame > it on some "professor" next time! > > David, you're the one who first said on this forum that the Bible states when a > women die they would not go to heaven, so please do not go about saying that > Christians are judgemental. Please leave the Christians alone. I do not think > anyone has identified him/herself as a Christian in this debate. This a purely > academic debate that we are asking you to prove what you're dishing out. > > I hope you're not trying to shift the debate into some super-religious stuff. > Perhaps I need to ask you what explanation the theory of evolution has for the > existence and operation of vampires! > > I THINK IT IS ABOUT TIME WE HAD SOME ACADEMIC RESPONSIBILITY ON SOCGRAD. > > David, please bring in your "professor" for explanation, or cough up the answers > yourself, or better still withdraw your statements. > > cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeers, > frisky. > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible > Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail > Date: 9/12/97 15:24 > > > The professor WAS an ordained United Methodist Minister, did quote the > exact Bible verses, Bbut I do not have them here. > As for referring to women as property, I don't know the exact verse, but > If I am not mistaken several times throught the Old Testament and New > Testmant (including one refrence by the 10Commandments in KJV) The Bible > Refers to "A man's wife and his other PROPERTY" inmplying that a man's > wife is his property. Also, if you argue that the Bible has never been > wrong, how do you address the fact that many persons in the Old Testament > have several wives? > > In the gospel of Peter, it makes a Convaluded Refrence, that "And if a > Man is Married, his wife shall not have eternal life" I will try to get > the exact verse if I can. > > In the Old Testament, verses in Numbers, Exodus, Ezikiel refer to "the > Four corners of the earth" > > Why do religous types dismiss evolution? Of the 2 Creation stories in > Genisis, one of them says that God Created the Animals first, then he > created man all in 7 days, several other verses in scripture say that "A > day is 1,000 years in the eyes of the Lord," maybe they left out a few > extra zeros by mistake, then evolution fits in with the Bible. Charles > Darwin never said that Man descended from Monkeys, all he said basically > was what Sociologist Herbert Specencer called "Survival of the fittest," > Those members species that have genes resistant to a particular ailment > will be the only ones to survive to reproduce the next generation, and as > a result SPECIES CHANGE OVER TIME! All Darwin Said is that Species Change > over time, this is not contradictary in any way to the Biblical Creation > story, you can observe this phenomon occuring in the world around us. > > How anyone can be a Christian and go around judging wether other people > will be "saved" or will "parish for eternal life" is beyond me, becuase > their own Bible says that "Jusgement is mine sayeth the Lord." > > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua S. Meisel Meisel@Colorado.EDU Graduate Student, Department of Sociology University of Colorado, Boulder Office: (303)492-6269 Fax: (303)492-8878 * WWW Home Page URL http://socsci.colorado.edu/~meisel/Home.html * From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Sep 15 12:33:59 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA25688 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:33:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA17697; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:32:47 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:32:46 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Start from WHERE? In-Reply-To: <9708158743.AA874374005@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > David Katz, > > I think you can suggest any litertaure you like, so please > provide any long list. I have added the Bible to the long > list of bobliography. Now let me put you on the spot: you > claim that "some contemporary constructions of marriage and > family are influenced by Biblical ideas", but then you say > that the Bible is not sociological literature. Excuse me > sir! Are you alright? Also please define what "sociological > literature" is. > > cheers, > frisky. > I would suggest that everyone simply ignore "Mr. Frisky" until he can learn how to converse without insulting people. Just a thought, Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:34:08 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA25698 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:34:05 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:33:49 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874374366; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:33:08 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:33:08 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874374366@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: marriage and family thread David, there are many more statements to detract. Think of these: (1). The Bible treats womena s second-class citizens. (2). The Bible says a woman is man's property. (3). The Bible says women would not go to heaven when they die. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/12/97 21:26 I agree totally with Pam Paxton's posting.I did not mean to suggest that it was "wrong" to have more than one wife. Perhaps I should retract that statement, nothing should be considered right or wrong except in the context of a society. Nothing is inherently right or wrong, it is only defined as such by a particular society. American Society (the USA) has tended to legislate that it is "wrong" or illegal to have more than one wife at a time, that is what I was getting at. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From pfl661@airmail.net Mon Sep 15 12:40:30 1997 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA26303 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:40:29 -0600 (MDT) From: pfl661@airmail.net Received: from internet america.airmail.net from [206.138.226.113] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.181) with smtp for id ; Mon, 15 Sep 97 13:40:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341D815F.15C6@airmail.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: pfl661@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm a little hesitant to jump into this discussion. I'm not interested in defending or attacking anyones faith. However, I think the tortured logic used by M.AMOAH to explain how the bible promotes women's rights speaks for itself. I would like at post a direct quote from the bible and let the members of this list decide for themselves how the material should be interpreted. First Peter 2:18 RSV Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. (19) For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly. (20) For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God's approval. (21) through (25) compare the suffering of a servant to that of Christ. The next section 3:1 starts, Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without the word by the behavior of their wives. As far as sociological perspective, the intro text I am teaching out of this semester defines sociological perspective as "an approach to understanding human behavior by placing it within its broader social contexts." The bible is certainly a text that should be analyzed sociologically. But to say that it has a sociological perspective is a misuse of the term. Phyllis Flott University of North Texas From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Mon Sep 15 12:43:57 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA26606 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:43:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INOB4O50J49BWM70@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:40:33 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INOB2KCS2E99DPLA@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id OAA15871 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:30:52 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:30:52 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Getting the balance right! To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709151830.OAA15871@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> To M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk: although I am not the list owner, I do know that socgrad is not a forum intended for Bible interpretation or religious proselytizing. I would prefer to keep this space clear in my mailbox for on-topic communications. Is there any reason I should keep you out of my killfile, or are you a one-trick pony? PS: If I were the listowner, you'd have been 86ed a few days ago. From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:44:34 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA26642 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:44:31 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:42:38 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874374904; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:43:46 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:43:46 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874374904@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible >I do, however, also fail to see how even the most dogmatic of >fundamentalists can turn it into a sociology textbook. (When, by the way, >did they turn the LSE into a missionary school, M.AMOAH@LSE.AC.UK ?) >Nico >Copenhagen Hi Nico, that was funny!!!! Anyone at all can read the Bible you know. It is in the library! Especially when people like David Coon come and tell us things which are not there, I have to go and verify for myself! cheers, frisky. From conroyt@bu.edu Mon Sep 15 12:49:22 1997 Received: from acs4.bu.edu (ACS4.BU.EDU [128.197.154.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA26983 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:49:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs4.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id OAA104384 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:49:06 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:49:06 -0400 (EDT) From: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: <9708158743.AA874371839@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Okay, having been the source of the post to which you refer, I'll bite. The difference between a "text" and a "textbook" is that, whereas any meaningful object - whether it contains words written down on a surface - can be a "text," (i.e., a constructed carrier of meaning), a "textbook" makes some set of authoritative claims about some body of knowledge - hence mathematic exercise books, grammar handbooks, condensations of sub-areas (for introductory readers), or encyclopedic introductory reference books can all count as "textbooks," because all were written/constructed with the purpose of laying out and teaching a delimited body of knowledge. That is why it is bizarre to me to even begin to characterize the Bible (or any sacred scripture) as a social science textbook - it's merely (for sociological purposes) a cultural "text" - nothing more and nothing less. I hope that this clarifies my earlier message. Tom Conroy On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > > > You call the Bible a "cultural text", but refuse to call it a textbook! I > appreciate my semanticizing here, but could you please give us a > definition of what a textbook is sir/madam? > > > >Very sensible comments here, Bob, with which I concur. I also see the > >bible as a cultural text, but to call it a "textbook is bizarre" as if > >films, fictional works, political tracts, graffiti, and advertisments > >were also textbooks. Reminds me somewhat of the confusions over the > >differences between "social" and "sociological." > > >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Bob Woldman wrote: > > > > >> The Bible is not a textbook. It is a collection of sacred > > writings. I believe most theologians would agree with me on this. > >> The Bible does not put forth any theories of any kind. It cannot > >> be the basis for scientific investigation, and should not be the > > basis for social UNDERSTANDING, but rather the basis for faith and > >> religious practice. The students will be there to learn sciology > >> of the family not the Christian theology of the family. > >> > > > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Sep 15 12:49:54 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA26992 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:49:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA17999; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:48:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:48:41 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thought some of you might be interested in this note. Glenn's review and some replies are published in the July issue of Family Relations. Best, Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:47:20 -0600 (MDT) From: gene starbuck To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Re: book "burning" I have actually read Glenn's review of textbooks, which I suspect may not be the case for everyone that has commented upon it. He was highly critical of Aulette's text, but for more than one reason. He saw Aulette's as the most one-sidedly feminist of the the books he reviewed; I don't think Ms. Aulette would necessarily disagree with that observation. The issue here is the same as that faced by sociologists in many fields: Is the goal of entry-level classes to give students a thorough grounding in one particular perspective--whatever that might be--or to introduce them to a variety of views? Glenn takes the latter position, and I tend to agree. But Glenn had a deeper criticism of Aulette's text. He claimed to have found several errors in fact and interpretation that resulted from her one-sided presentation; he provided examples of same. Calling something "backlash" might dismiss it in some quarters, but hardly suffices as analysis. Scanzoni, among others, critiqued Glenn thoroughly in the same journal, and Glenn defended himself in reply. I found the entire debate quite thought-provoking, and similar issues could probably be raised about texts in other fields. Finally, calling Glenn's reviews a book burning, even in quotes, smacks of bit of sensationalist hyperbole. ***************************************************************************** Gene H. Starbuck Mesa State College computo Grand Junction, CO 81502 ergo starbuck@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu sum www.mesastate.edu/~starbuck ****************************************************************************** From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:54:37 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA27263 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:54:26 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:53:33 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874375564; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:53:38 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:53:38 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874375564@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Legio; Re-ligio Hello Sir! Perhaps you need to direct your posting to the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion (SSSR) and see whether you can explain why the biblical text is not postmodernist. Please also start reading the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (JSSR). You would perhaps find out soon how postmodern the Bible is! cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Legio; Re-ligio Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/13/97 13:33 The discussion on marriage, family and religion occurs primarily within a pre-modern or modernist view of religion. I would like to suggest an affirmative postmodern view of religion might be a good place to start in discussing religious sensibility as it affects both marriage, family and progressive sociology in general. First a definition: The word, religion does not appear in our Bible or in the Koran or the Torah. It is a Latin word scholars use to discuss the teachings of a group of people who sanctify some things and de-sanctify other things. 'Ligio' means 'I bind'...re-ligio means I bind, I bind together. Religion is, in a postmodern view, anything which binds a people together and sanctifies some of the things they do and use. When there is no god-talk involved in efforts to get a people to work together or live together or fight together, we speak, properly, of civil or secular religions. Marxism is much maligned as a 'secular religion.' It teaches that solidarity is key to progressive politics. So it does qualify. Markets are praised in that they work indifferent to the fate of particular workers, consumers, firms or societies...and thus is presumed to be free of religion. All transactions are based upon rational calculation, they say, and thus market societies are modern societies. Postmodern sensibility argues that all such 'stories' involving god or postulating 'fundamental truths' are made up out of a given socio-cultural complex. Nihilistic postmodern sensibility tends to abandon both the knowledge process and the religio process. Affirmative postmodern sensibility need not abandon either. As long as an 'author' of a 'text' openly admits the political and economic and social agenda informing her/his work, then much of the demystification of 'Absolute Truth' is avoided. I have done a bit of work on affirmative postmodern sociology of religion that grad students might like to glance through; these are on the Red Feather Institute Home Page: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/index.htm Among these are: #148 Part I: Postmodern Understandings of the God Concept: Social Justice and the Drama of the Holy by T. R. Young #157 Postmodern Religion and the Global World Order Postmodern Theology and Social Justice by T. R. Young In brief, I accept the Durkheimian view that religion is a social product; that the god-concept is converted from the special experience that comes when a social group is assembled and experiences a power larger than separate families/individuals. Durkheim called this the 'super-organic' ...a happy term in affirmative postmodern sensibility. I agree with Marx that much in traditional religion is alienating; that the god-concept involves the alienation of social power into sacred supernatural power. But Marx worked out of a modernist paradigm and did not appreciate, in my opinion, some of the possibilities of a well-tempered postmodern religious sensibility. I try to augment Marxism and Progressive scholarship with an bit more congenial approach to religion than perhaps most 'radicals' do... Let me know what you think about this effort if you have the time. in solidarity, TR TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:54:40 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA27274 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:54:36 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:53:33 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874375567; Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:56:49 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:56:49 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874375567@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible Hi David, You don't have to apologize for anything. Just give us the biblical evidence to your claims that (1) Women will not go to heaven when they die (2) Women are second class citizens (3) Women are men's property Then you would be fine. Better still invite your old "professor" onto the socgrad forum. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/13/97 13:47 I think I am partly responsible for the massive thread and many flames on this topic. Please understand, it was not my goal to offend anyone, but my goal was simply to make an alternative viewpoint known. I hope my comments and postings did not offend anyone. Sincerely, David Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Mon Sep 15 12:58:03 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA27558 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:58:01 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:57:40 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874375804; Mon, 15 Sep 97 20:01:37 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 20:01:37 GMT Message-Id: <9708158743.AA874375804@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Hahahahaaaaaaaaa Pam, Lets not get apologetic here and let David Coon off the hook. You really think I've got my head in the sand haven't you? We'll soon find out! I'm just not comfortable with misquotations and misrepresentations from any book under the sun. Thats what we need to fight within the social sciences, where it seems anyone can just say anything and get away with it. We are talking about academic responsibility. Either David Coon or his famous "professor" have to answer for this. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/13/97 15:09 Thanks for your comments David! Actually, now I think I might have given the wrong impression in my post because I was angry. I PERSONALLY think that having two wives is wrong (and that other things such as adultery are wrong). I'm not sure its ethical to TEACH that IN the classroom however. To be frank, I'm worried about both ends of the spectrum represented in this discussion--both Frisky with his 'head in the sand' perspective on the Bible and Christian with his 'uninformed ranting' against Christians and the Bible. Neither attitude in the classroom would represent sociology well. Good sociology includes critical thinking deeper than anything these two gentlemen have displayed. Pam Paxton ps. David, I wouldn't worry about offending anyone. Your comments are among the least offensive in this thread (including, probably, my own!) On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Dave Alan Coon (: wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:52 -0500 (CDT) > From: Dave Alan Coon (: > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: marriage and family thread > > > I agree totally with Pam Paxton's posting.I did not mean to suggest that > it was "wrong" to have more than one wife. Perhaps I should retract that > statement, nothing should be considered right or wrong except in the context > of a society. Nothing is inherently right or wrong, it is only defined as such > by a particular society. American Society (the USA) has tended to > legislate that it is "wrong" or illegal to have more than one wife at a > time, that is what I was getting at. > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Mon Sep 15 13:32:32 1997 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA29535 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:32:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) id MAA13524 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:34:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199709151934.MAA13524@weber.ucsd.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: netiquette Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As one of the list owners, I feel like I ought to respond to Thomas' suggestion to dump certain subscribers. Here I'm only speaking for myself; the other two list owners may have different ideas. But it's been my experience that it only invites disaster when an unmoderated list such as this tries to restrict either topics or subscribers. Therefore, I have no intention of doing so. Instead, it seems that one should follow Jim's suggestion -- if a thread (and a particular individual) is driving you crazy, don't take the bait, and simply stop prolonging the argument. I'd also like to make a couple netiquette suggestions. If you feel like getting real nasty, it's probably a good idea to continue your conversation privately -- remember, not all messages *have* to posted to the entire list. Also, I urge you to remember that not all subscribers have unlimited email box capacity. Therefore, try to consolidate your messages instead of replying one by one to every post on a single thread. Laura Miller lmiller@ucsd.edu From cmsnikki@uga.cc.uga.edu Mon Sep 15 13:49:44 1997 Received: from listmail.cc.uga.edu (listmail.cc.uga.edu [128.192.232.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA00674 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:49:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sherlock.dac.uga.edu by listmail.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.F837E080@listmail.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:49:37 -0400 Received: from soc03 (socugadv.dac.uga.edu [128.192.31.113]) by sherlock.dac.uga.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA12378 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:37:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199709151937.PAA12378@sherlock.dac.uga.edu> From: "Nicole Pallotta" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:52:12 -500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible Reply-to: cmsnikki@uga.cc.uga.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Frisky, Will you PLEASE stop bashing David Coon already!!!!! He is not your whipping boy; stop bringing him up in every post as a scapegoat for your un-sociological bible thumping. Your attitude is neither professional nor courteous and I think many of us are sick to death of your barrage of innane postings attacking people rather than deconstructing ideas. Well, so as not to make your mistake of referring to a generalized and undefined WE for whom you claim to speak, I will change that to "*I* am sick of your inanne . . ." Word up to everyone who suggested Mr. Frisky take a rest. My mailbox is full. One final (yeah right) word here: POWER. It is all very nice to say the bible has a number of interpretations, that they are historically variable, multivocal texts, blah blah blah, but this benign view of the politics of interpretation ignores structures of power completely. What we as sociologists should be analysing with regard to the bible (or any other socially constructed text, including a soc textbook) is under what conditions certain interpretations come to be legitimated, what form these legitimations take, and to the benefit of whom? This is a sociological perspective; peddling our personal views regarding the bible's (un)truth or (in)validity is not. As I write this, TWO more messages come through from you, Frisky. Is there anyone with whom you agree? You are having a lot of fun directing people to post here, don't post there, do this, do that. Why don't you just lay off? And don't tell TR Young to get off the list, or that his post was/is inappropriate for this forum; some of us want him here. Can you imagine how many people want to tell you to get lost but are trying to maintain a degree of decorum? You would do well to try some of the same. I can't believe how far this thread has gone into the gutter. CHEERS Nicole R. Pallotta Department of Sociology University of Georgia Athens, Ga. 30602-1611 (706) 542-3192 cmsnikki@uga.cc.uga.edu From cbrown@siu.edu Mon Sep 15 14:45:56 1997 Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA03982 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:45:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from port2.aixdialin.siu.edu (port2.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.2]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id PAA31638 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:45:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:45:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709152045.PAA31638@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: cbrown@Saluki-mail.siu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: Re: BibleVerse women cannot go to Heaven David Coon wrote: >1 Peter 3:7 "Likewise, you husbans, live with your wives with >understanding, and hold them hold them with tenderness like delicate >vessels, because they shall not inherit the gift of everlasting life; do >this that you may not be hindered in your praryers." > >THis may spark some contreversy because it is from the "Holy Bible: From >the Ancient Eastern Text, George M. Lamsa's Translation from the >Aramaic of the Phisetta." > >While the KJV was translated from Greek & Herew, Lamsa grew up speaking >Aramiac ((syriac), the Language that Jesus spoke. He tranlated the >Original text ofg the Peshita directly to English, and his work has been >widely hailed by Scholars of all faiths as a more accurate Translation. >Roman Catholics, Episcopals, Southern Baptists, Presbeyterians, >Methodists, scholars from these denominations have praised Lamsa. The >Peshita is the Bible used by the Church of the east and Greek and >Russian Orthodox Churches. > David: Thanks for the reference. I think, however, that your argument is still lacking since most individuals probably don't use this version of the bible. The most popular versions in the U.S. (The New American Standard Bible, the New King James Version, the New International Version, The Living Bible, the King James Version, and the Revised Standard Version), do not translate 1 Peter 3:7 in the fashion that Lamsa does (In fact, they suggest the opposite). Thus, you were definately in error when you suggested that the KJV and the NIV versions of the bible translated 1 Peter 3:7 in this fashion: "The Bible, particulary in the gospels of Peter, potrays women as inferior to men and as second class citizens. Given this, and Given that Peter says women cannot go to heaven in KJV and NIV versions of the bible, I find it interesting that women are the most religiously active." Here is 1 Peter 3:7 from both the KJV and NIV KJV Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. NIV Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you fo the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. Furthermore, I am forced to ask why this would even be an issue then (at least in the West), if the major translations *do not* suggest that women cannot go to heaven. In other words, this is not a good argument to use in defense of the bible treating women as second class citizens if the major translations are not saying that women cannot go to heaven. I would agree with you, however, in that the Bible does list other verses in which women seem to be subjugated to men (one may even still be able to interpret the I Peter passage in this manner {e.g. "weaker partner"}). And certainly, it would be foolhardy to suggest that the Bible has not been used to subjugate women (or slaves for that matter). Nevertheless, you may want to check out Rodney Stark's new book "The Rise of Christianity." He argues that Christian women were treated better than pagan women during the first few hundred years of the rise of Christianity. He also points out that women were in positions of authority during this period. Also, and this is particularly interesting given the thread of our discussions, he cites an article by Laurence Iannaccone "Let the Women Be Silent." Sunstone 7(May-June): 38-45, in which Iannaccone supposedly argues that the verses in which Pauls *appears* to prohibit women even from speaking n the church (I Cor. 14:34-36) was really "the opposite of Paul's position, that these verses "were in fact a quotation of claims being made at Corinth that Paul then refuted" (P. 108). Stark then goes on to say that "Certainly the statement is at variance with everything else Paul wrote about the proper role for women in the church. Moreover, Paul several times acknowledged women in leadership positions in various congregations. (P. 108). I have yet to read the article (I am waiting for it to arrive via interlibrary loan), and must admit that I am a little skeptical. There are other places in scripture (Ephesians comes to mind) in which it seems clear that Paul generally intended men to occupy a position of leadership over women. Has anyone else read this particular article or Starks' book? If so, what were your impressions? In closing, while I think that "Frisky" might want to incorporate a little more tact in the future, I think he is correct (thus far) to point out the flaw in this particular thread (the bible says that women don't go to heaven) of your argument. BTW, I realize that *you* are/were not saying/suggesting that women did not/do not go to heaven. Also, please do not consider my comments as a personal attack against you, I am only attacking the argument :) Qapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a three-edged sword" ?? Southern Illinois University ?? Kosh Naranek ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From cbrown@siu.edu Mon Sep 15 14:48:00 1997 Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA04110 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:47:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from port2.aixdialin.siu.edu (port2.aixdialin.siu.edu [131.230.253.2]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with SMTP id PAA23704 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:47:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:47:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709152047.PAA23704@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: cbrown@Saluki-mail.siu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) Thomas Brown wrote: >The intellectual marketplace will always be shaped by political >considerations, and there's no way to opt out of that. I couldn't agree more....... Qapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a three-edged sword" ?? Southern Illinois University ?? Kosh Naranek ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From MMAUME@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU Mon Sep 15 15:04:55 1997 Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu [130.39.128.22]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA05354 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:04:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU by LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2129; Mon, 15 Sep 97 16:04:00 CDT Received: from LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (NJE origin MMAUME@LSUVM) by LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1514; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:04:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 15:56:03 CDT From: "Michael O. Maume" Subject: Thanks for Marx citations To: Recipients of list SOCGRAD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <970915.160359.CDT.MMAUME@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> Thanks to all of you who responded to my appeal for help on Marx's historical materialism. I found the books by Anderson and Giddens to be especially helpful in preparing my lecture. Additionally, I found a brief summary from my M.A. mentor's deviance text to be of great help. The entire list is attached. Thanks again, Mike Maume ************************************************************************ Marx's Historical Materialism ************************************************************************ Aday, David P. 1990. _Social Control at the Margins_. Belmont, CA: Wadsworth. Chapter 2: Deviance, Society, & Human Experience (esp. pp. 27-29). Anderson, R.J. et al. (eds) 1987. _Classic Disputes in Sociology_. London: Allen & Unwin. Chapter 1: The Great Transition. Avineri, S. 1969. _The Social and Political Thought of Karl Marx_. London: Cambridge U. Press. Giddens, A. 1971. _Capitalism and Modern Social Theory_. Cambridge U. Press. Chapter 2: Historical Materialism. Lloyd, C. 1986. _Explanation in Social History_. Cambridge: Basil Blackwell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael O. Maume Voice: 504-388-1645 Doctoral Candidate Fax: 504-388-5102 Department of Sociology Email: mmaume@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu 126 Stubbs Hall Louisiana State University Baton Rouge, LA 70803 From Howery@asanet.org Mon Sep 15 15:36:50 1997 Received: from enterprise.csi1.com (enterprise.csi1.com [205.136.28.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA07227 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:36:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCC1FE.33C936D0@enterprise.csi1.com>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:38:39 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: Carla Howery To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International , "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: ASA Ethical Codes and Grad student employment Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:49:15 -0400 X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Next weekend 6 sociologist (incl. me) will join other reps from other disciplines at a meeting on part-time.adjunct work. One goal is to speak with as much consensus and force as we can about ways to protect the professionalism of junior scholars who typically land in these situations and often stay in them. There is much work to be done on appropriate procedures in a job hunt. We receive quite a few outrageous stories from job hunters. We are working with chairs of departments to suggest some guidelines, as simple as acknowledging responses. Keep the info coming. ---------- From: thomas conroy Sent: Monday, September 15, 1997 2:21 PM To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: ASA Ethical Codes and Grad student employment Dear Carla and list, Not that I think that turning down work is necessarily a bad idea in some instances, but since you have raised this issue, I would be interested in seeing some further discussion about the ethics (or non-ethics) of employment as this pertains to grad students (or those attemping to complete their degrees and to make the transition) and the role that such an agency as the ASA might play. For example, it would be nice to see a shift away from assistant prof candidates having to send - in a addition to CVs and cover letters - other supporting materials in the initial round of the application process. While it may be a convenience for reviewers to have these materials, it is burdensome and costly to have to provide them. Some of us come out of programs that don't provide any financial support for job application related mailing and photocopying. I would love for the ASA to apply a bit of moral pressure on departments to consider simplifying this process and only requiring "supporting materials" to be sent if a candidate has made it past the first cut. This is just one of a number of concerns I have. We should be discussing the ethics of our roles as graduate student-sociologists and discussing the "ethics" of a job market that can only function now, it would seem, on the (sometimes exploited) backs of a lower tiered set of workers. Tom Conroy conroyt@acs.bu.edu On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: > Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short > notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the > financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, > that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of > competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such > offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, > reading, apprenticeship in the area. > > Carla Howery, ASA > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B@5`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0F `0`A````.3,T-D,W M.4%",#)$1#$Q,4(W.$(P,#8P.38*W8```,`!A#SFELK`P`'$(4(```>``@0`0```&4```!. M15A45T5%2T5.1#933T-)3TQ/1TE35"A)3D-,344I5TE,3$I/24Y/5$A%4E)% M4%-&4D]-3U1(15)$25-#25!,24Y%4T%404U%151)3D=/3E!!4E0M5$E-14%$ M2E5.0U173U)+``````,`$! ``````P`1$ $````"`0D0`0```#P(```X" `` MX@T``$Q:1G5+$X4C_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S973N,@8` M!L,"@S(#Q@<3`H.Z,Q,-?0J ",\)V3L5_W@R-34"@ J!#;$+8&[P9S$P,Q0@ M"PH2\@P!5F,`0 >Q> 5 =PG@:P$)\&0@-B!S;V-::16!9P0`!4 H"X!CZ&PN M( > *1L@`Q #((1J;PN (&]T: 20NB 6`' $( -2'=5D! "O&_ +4 N !Y%A M!4!A'/$[$@`+@&<=T .@"K%T+8,@@ > +F%D:G47!I)E#Y'6!Y(!CA&Y = ML1WQ$?#[&\ C\'4@`"BA)30H4">@SP.@'& G`"N%;2X*A0J%?E0>`2*P(R$D M8R(B(T)BG2*P9 (@(K @T6%P)W'?)W ',">@)V(EP&0(< >11QVQ(# =D&(@ M:"'0=)TB85=3+V!)!S,W0*P"*P(B+W()(CXQ&Q:2HQ*3$-L"$"YP> `C C-'5G-6 < M81O0WP> (L T8 VP'Z,L)"(`D YM"U ETP#0:VYO=]T\0&0<0""A,F%P),(W M,GI+">!P)^,+@ (0)*%MCR"1+CT*]!^@,3@P`M'@:2TQ-#0-\ S007/9"UDQ M-@J@)X4M0Y<*A]="2PPP)W9&`V$Z1)XG=K\,@B?A`W$$("2Q`V!Y1#]?14T& M8 (P1G]'BTT"(&1_)P`[L 9@!3 N$#" !< Q`C4[L#$Y.3<@,F0Z,AK 4$U) M+T5-5+9O2V]'BU,;Y2L@1S5 >S) ,;)3+$ -L#G20Y @?DDV\BC +'('0$]O M2CYU'&)J)[%1CT>+05-!["!%'? JTB (4 VP)33W5 (M852S("X0"U!)`#FR M\S^?0*,S-D(7%"(,`2=V]D0CH 7 0PK "V E0RCA[G0[L"Y,(G!.'> GX2 ! M_DDGX0N ,#%BXBQ !* @DOTPL'<#H# #(R$?P"7 !!#O"L #$"L@(#!B6_$[ M,2 P?PN "H4ZPPN +7$0A@,R!A_S0A-4 $``F 8S(R M@000"E#G.[!C("(@=6P;D#" "H7_"X W`3J!:;$=L1'P- `@H?TZPV8((BL%IR M/T!G:&L%0 M1>1S@1@6Q&O!A_SPB.[ C\&J^`P`EP2-2">#]("%S6M !@!_P M)O$>A"0P_P"09[)\42A!)D(?0$UP)Z#_!"!I(755).$;D$0F,J,AH.('_ M(O$#8"'0+/(GXS$Q'Z F4.^$0S'S!! (C46DC_RO$AU=]@R,A:$ +("3Q.M+_A00<8"L1 MCI4*A2=$@F -L/\MY%-1.N$I,24A/R$PX2;!=RDQ)W%S$6UQXB !,+$G_X$C MDR,`<$D604 HP!RPB0+_AJ6-HS+RBAH6``M@;"(`P'<#$""2)5)P*? C4 6@ MY8C48H29>-]H2DQ!& U0/\#("=P*'$R42#" M.5P*A22R_SLQ*;$\$@:0F\)Q]8KD+,2^;BL1%@`T4040(*$BAJC["H6'5R(P M123AD#$I0(QQ_X&F:1$D02&@BZ,*L!QA)_+_04 1X 5 ;@`S86('+R!J`\\I M41QA,,.G@FYU3A.!8O\"("7 !* $(&,@:2*+02P!_RGP:N1MQZ6';NDI,0AA M>+C(Q M+DPBD$8A:4Z!$B%O/F%.HCNP8)1(O#(K('?U)X(Z+DP^4_AS9RT4EZ'_>1.5 MH#M0-""Q0AM@=U,GH/\`T"01)*$(<"OQ(-&N,0`@_\3W/- @@"7"&X'(^BI@ M*M#_)! =\2L@$< ;D#S0)8(`P/\#(#4QB,&;XA-P&X [L'DX_\5@EZAHD@(P M-!(C(0-P`P#_GY(YP2)A8R PL";A7'$G0G\=H93Q)L [L"GP&S"%82S_Q/=C MI'NE6S(I(EJS@B$&\/YD-:&RNIX2+6)-80L@*2'_Q/=UPG81:*(RHAUA(B)] M@=\2N7;]"%QHU)W8*A045(0#K$ ,`-@```````P`F M```````"`?D_`0```!X`````````W*= R,!"$!JTN0@`*R_A@@$````````` M+@```!X`^#\!````%0```%-Y; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:39:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCC1FE.8AD637C0@enterprise.csi1.com>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:41:05 -0400 Message-ID: From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: teaching competency (was RE: Marriage and Family Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:52:06 -0400 I completely agree that the "living wage" issue is very serious. Today I finished a report on faculty roles and rewards, which speaks to multiple forms of scholarly work (not just basic research) including the scholarship of teaching. I guess I would question whether any of us can engage in scholarly teaching with a month of preparation in an area. We can lecture, we can provide facts, and we can know more than most of the students. I aspire to a higher level of scholarship in the teaching of sociology. >---------- >From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu >Sent: Saturday, September 13, 1997 1:31 AM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: teaching competency (was RE: Marriage and Family > > >On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Carla Howery wrote: >> Graduate students often find themselves asked to teach a course on short >> notice and a course on which they had no formal training. And, the >> financial incentive is omnipresent. I do want to point out, however, >> that the ASA Code of Ethics holds sociologists to a standard of >> competence in all work, including teaching. Perhaps, sometimes, such >> offers should be declined until the person has done some coursework, >> reading, apprenticeship in the area. > >We're not talking brain surgery or rocket science here. I can become >expert in any sociological substantive specialty with less than two >months of reading. I may not be an expert practitioner by that time, >but I will be totally informed on all the main threads of the >disciplinary conversation. > >Assuming that I meet a reasonable standard of teaching competence-- >which is completely unrelated to substantive mastery--I could >be ready to teach any undergrad sociology course within a month. > >I think that Carla is completely missing the real problem here, >which is that grads and adjunct instructors are usually not paid >a living wage. Referring to the code of ethics does nothing to >solve that. > > > From lklein@uhavax.hartford.edu Mon Sep 15 15:43:44 1997 Received: from uhavax.hartford.edu (uhavax.hartford.edu [137.49.1.150]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA07474 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:43:42 -0600 (MDT) From: lklein@uhavax.hartford.edu Received: by uhavax.hartford.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) id 157; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:41:21 EDT Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:41:20 EDT To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: <009BA587.0AA67200.157@uhavax.hartford.edu> Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible I am the moderator for another listserv. My long time involvement either subscribing or more recently directing listservs suggests that flames inevitably yield destructive results. List subscribers get inundated with zillions of nonproductive messages and the list suffers from the exodus of regular members. I am not one for censorship. But Laura Miller's point cannot be emphasized enough. Religion and politics somehow get people tied up in a frenzy. Please divert the private asides to individual member communications. Of course, we can always follow the advise of another prominent academic: use that delete button early and often. Save the precious disk space for meaningful and substantive postings. Lloyd Klein Department of Sociology University of Hartford From jmote@pewtrusts.com Mon Sep 15 16:22:43 1997 Received: from pewtrusts.com (pewtrusts.com [204.242.21.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA08232 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:22:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PEW-Message_Server by pewtrusts.com with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:24:16 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:14:36 -0500 From: "Jonathon E. Mote" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: CFP -- Webs of Discourse: Science Studies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline The following call for papers has nothing to do with the bible, but I thought some might find it interesting. :-) Jon ***************************** WEBS OF DISCOURSE The Intertextuality of Science Studies The thirty-first annual Texas Tech University Comparative Literature Symposium, "Webs of Discourse: The Intertextuality of Science Studies," will meet on February 5-7, 1998. Plenary speakers are Donna Haraway, Lynn Randolph, Marcos Novak, and Carl Rubino. Is a comprehensive synthesis of science studies across the discursive disciplines possible? What roles will the Web and other interactive technologies play? We invite discussion of these and related issues by scholars working in any area of cultural science studies, as well as by rhetoricians, critical theorists, and literature scholars. Visit our Web site at http://www.english.ttu.edu/wod/ Send 1-2 pp. abstracts by October 30, 1997, to Bruce Clarke, e-mail: bruno@ttu.edu, or Department of English, Texas Tech University, Lubbock, TX 79409-3091 From jmote@pewtrusts.com Mon Sep 15 16:23:18 1997 Received: from pewtrusts.com (pewtrusts.com [204.242.21.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id QAA08244 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:23:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PEW-Message_Server by pewtrusts.com with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:24:46 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:19:24 -0500 From: "Jonathon E. Mote" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage and Family -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline This thread has gotten so ludicrous that I'm surprised someone hasn't started referring to Harold Bloom's "Book of J." Can we move along please? As a first-time TA, I second Thomas Conroy's suggestion about more discussion on ethics. Jon Mote From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Sep 15 16:39:53 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA08611 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:39:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cbs (dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id RAA05150 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:39:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id RAA03002; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:39:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:39:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: netiquette In-Reply-To: <199709151934.MAA13524@weber.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It was not my intention to offend anyone. I am sorry if I have done so, I am tired of this Bible thread. Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Laura Miller wrote: > As one of the list owners, I feel like I ought to respond to Thomas' > suggestion to dump certain subscribers. Here I'm only speaking for myself; > the other two list owners may have different ideas. But it's been my > experience that it only invites disaster when an unmoderated list such > as this tries to restrict either topics or subscribers. Therefore, I have > no intention of doing so. Instead, it seems that one should follow Jim's > suggestion -- if a thread (and a particular individual) is driving you crazy, > don't take the bait, and simply stop prolonging the argument. > > I'd also like to make a couple netiquette suggestions. If you feel like > getting real nasty, it's probably a good idea to continue your conversation > privately -- remember, not all messages *have* to posted to the entire list. > Also, I urge you to remember that not all subscribers have unlimited email > box capacity. Therefore, try to consolidate your messages instead of > replying one by one to every post on a single thread. > > Laura Miller > lmiller@ucsd.edu > From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Sep 15 16:41:15 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA08670 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:41:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cbs (dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id RAA05587 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:41:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id RAA03110; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:41:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:41:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: Graduate Students International Sociology Subject: Re: marriage and family thread (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A friend of mine has been having problems responding to SOCGRAD and he asked me to pass this message along (see below) Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:40:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce Michael Reid To: dcoon@ksu.edu Subject: Re: marriage and family thread (fwd) David can you pass this on to the socgrad list.... Frisky seems to have scholarly debate confused with name calling and fighting. Contrary to what Frisky suggests in his/her message our responsibility as scholars to higher knowledge and academic achievements is not "fighting". Might I suggest scholarly debate..I concur with Jim. Frisky needs to be ignored until he/she can conduct him/herself in a less than offensive manner. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 20:01:37 GMT From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Hahahahaaaaaaaaa Pam, Lets not get apologetic here and let David Coon off the hook. You really think I've got my head in the sand haven't you? We'll soon find out! I'm just not comfortable with misquotations and misrepresentations from any book under the sun. Thats what we need to fight within the social sciences, where it seems anyone can just say anything and get away with it. We are talking about academic responsibility. Either David Coon or his famous "professor" have to answer for this. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/13/97 15:09 Thanks for your comments David! Actually, now I think I might have given the wrong impression in my post because I was angry. I PERSONALLY think that having two wives is wrong (and that other things such as adultery are wrong). I'm not sure its ethical to TEACH that IN the classroom however. To be frank, I'm worried about both ends of the spectrum represented in this discussion--both Frisky with his 'head in the sand' perspective on the Bible and Christian with his 'uninformed ranting' against Christians and the Bible. Neither attitude in the classroom would represent sociology well. Good sociology includes critical thinking deeper than anything these two gentlemen have displayed. Pam Paxton ps. David, I wouldn't worry about offending anyone. Your comments are among the least offensive in this thread (including, probably, my own!) On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Dave Alan Coon (: wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:52 -0500 (CDT) > From: Dave Alan Coon (: > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: marriage and family thread > > > I agree totally with Pam Paxton's posting.I did not mean to suggest that > it was "wrong" to have more than one wife. Perhaps I should retract that > statement, nothing should be considered right or wrong except in the context > of a society. Nothing is inherently right or wrong, it is only defined as such > by a particular society. American Society (the USA) has tended to > legislate that it is "wrong" or illegal to have more than one wife at a > time, that is what I was getting at. > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Mon Sep 15 18:25:25 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id SAA13035 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:25:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:36:09 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:17:25 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline JACK MONPAS-HUBER-- I agree with your position that sociology ought to be about broadening perspectives, and I think the flurry of discussion on this list around this particular thread indicates that many others take the same view. David Katz Loyola University Chicago From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Sep 15 20:02:50 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id UAA15933 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:02:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4013; Mon, 15 Sep 97 22:02:57 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0809; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:02:57 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 21:55:35 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Religion and Politics To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970915.220256.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Having just scrolled through the 50 or so e-mail messages on family, the bible, and everything else (I adjunct teach on Monday so I didn't respond earlier), I do find the discussion interesting from a sociology of knowledge perspective -- especially given that in places like Connecticut there is the underlying assumption that sociologists should all be secular humanists who shouldn't take religion seriously. Bob Woldman is right in suggesting that the folks who pay our salaries, and many sociologists do take religion and the Bible seriously. As a Sociologist of religion who is unrepetant in his belief that religion (even when takes the form of secular humanism or even science) is an important independent variable in explaining how people exist and how social action occurs, we do need to take certain positions people might have, albeit unpopular positions seriously. Of course, we shouldn't elevate them to the level of truth, but we as Sociologists have also found ourselves as persona non grata in many settings because of the reputation of Sociology as not taking religion seriously. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Sep 15 20:09:26 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id UAA16123 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3705; Mon, 15 Sep 97 22:09:35 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1599; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:09:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 22:09:08 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Re: book "burning" (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970915.220934.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:54:19 -0600 To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu From: George Yancey Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Re: book "burning" I too have read Glenn's article reviewing textbooks. Furthermore, so that everyone knows my bias, Glenn was the chair of my dissertation committee. I agree with Gene's assessment that to answer his Glenn's critque with inflamatory phrases, such as book burning, does not answer some of the problems that Glenn points out. Furthermore for those who have not read the article, which I suspect is almost everyone who has responded except for of course Gene, his aritcle was not written to attack Aulette's texts specifically but a general critque of family textbooks. I taught marriage and the family about 4 years ago and I wanted to present a radical therotical perspective and a traditional family perspective. Both perspectives are well repersented in the literature. However all of the books were either atheoritical or one-sided towards the radical perspective. None of the books attempted to compare the varity of therotical perspectives available in the family literature. Whether the critiques of Glenn want to recongnize it or not there is a big void out there that should be addressed by textbook writers. Finally, if I remember Glenn's article correctly he also points out how there is a disproportionate amount of space given to emprical studies of certain issues while others of equal or even greater importace are overlooked. I concur with this assessment. Most of the texts that I have reviewed spent no more than a page, if that, dealing with interracial marriage, but tends to devotes enough material for an entire chapter on homosexual unions. Grab any contemporary marriage and the family text and turn to the index and then look at the number of pages that deal with interracial marriage and homosexuality. This is spite of the fact that the percentage of households that are homosexual is not much different from the amount of interracial households in our nation today. Glenn's work is not above true criticism. But his assertions deserve logical and critical arguments rather than sterotyping and name-calling. Also I think that it would be wise to read the entire article before offering comments on it. I am not sure where it can be found (I recieved a reprint from Glenn before it was printed but do not have the time to look for it right not) but Gene does and maybe he will give the citation to the list. I hope we can have a meaningful discouse on the topic of what may make a good family text book even though I will not be teaching that course soon. It might help us as we assess other texts for other courses Sincerely, George Yancey The University of Wisconsin at Whitewater At 11:47 AM 9/15/97 -0600, you wrote: > >I have actually read Glenn's review of textbooks, which I suspect may not >be the case for everyone that has commented upon it. He was highly >critical of Aulette's text, but for more than one reason. > >He saw Aulette's as the most one-sidedly feminist of the the books he >reviewed; I don't think Ms. Aulette would necessarily disagree with that >observation. The issue here is the same as that faced by sociologists >in many fields: Is the goal of entry-level classes to give students a >thorough grounding in one particular perspective--whatever that might >be--or to introduce them to a variety of views? Glenn takes the >latter position, and I tend to agree. > >But Glenn had a deeper criticism of Aulette's text. He claimed to have >found several errors in fact and interpretation that resulted from her >one-sided presentation; he provided examples of same. > >Calling something "backlash" might dismiss it in some quarters, but hardly >suffices as analysis. Scanzoni, among others, critiqued Glenn thoroughly in >the same journal, and Glenn defended himself in reply. I found the entire >debate quite thought-provoking, and similar issues could probably be raised >about texts in other fields. > >Finally, calling Glenn's reviews a book burning, even in quotes, smacks >of bit of sensationalist hyperbole. >***************************************************************************** >Gene H. Starbuck >Mesa State College computo >Grand Junction, CO 81502 ergo >starbuck@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu sum >www.mesastate.edu/~starbuck >*************************************************************************** *** > > > > > > From glenn@sobek.Colorado.EDU Mon Sep 15 21:25:24 1997 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id VAA21721 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:25:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from glenn@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id VAA04371; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:25:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:25:21 -0600 (MDT) From: "Glenn W. Muschert" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Forwarded Message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:39:17 -0600 (MDT) From: Meisel Joshua To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible "Frisky", On what basis are you speaking for subscribers to the socgrads list?????? Your comments are your comments only and any reference to a collective "we" is totally inappropriate and unacceptable. Josh "I don't need to hide behind no stinkin nickname" Meisel On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Hi David, > > You have made the following statements: > (1). That Bible says women are second class citizens > (2). That the Bible states that women are man's property > (3). That the Bible states that women would not go to Heaven > when they die! (wherever this heaven is!) > (4). etc. etc. etc. (which etceteras you would probably make > us aware pof un the future!). > > These statements are in themselves very androcentric. > Despite that fact that you've been cautioned that no > sections in the Bible state or imply any such stuff, you're > trying to hide behind some old "professor" of yours. > Definitely, this "professor" of yours, who you claim has a > Ph.D. in theology and is also a UM minister has some kind of > access to e-mail. I suggest that you invite him to CONFIRM > to all of us that he taught you exactly those statements you > have made above (WITH PROOF FROM THE BIBLICAL TEXTS). > Otherwise, we on socgrad take it that you are responsible > for what you say, because as at now, there is no proof that > what you claim was told you by your "professor" was exactly > taught you by him! We're just not sure who is lying here. > Maybe perhaps in the future you need to cross check anything > that any "professor" tells you, and not be too academically > gullible. Afterall that is what the realm of academia is > about! > > > We wil be happy to hear from the "horse's" own mouth, > otherwise, David, you would have to withdraw your > statements. Because we consider them as an attempt at > academic abuse and deception, very typical in the social > sciences, and which needs to be dealt with on this socioolgy > forum. You can't just say anything and get away with it. > Somebody would also try to impart the fallacies you have > communicated somewhere. > > You will be aware that like many other textbooks, there are > sections where the author deliberates and discusses or > takes account of other paradigms, accounts, theories, etc. > which are in existence, as DISTINCT from where the author > states specifically what he/she thinks. You would perhaps > notice that instance of concubinage, polygamy and polygyny > in the Bible are accounts of instances, and are DISTINCT > from specific sections where instructions on the subject are > given, eg: > (1). Exodus 20:17 states "Thou shalt not covet they > neighbour's wife......" > (2). 1 Corinthians 7:2 states that" let each man have his > own wife; and let each woman have her own husband" > EMPHASIZING ONE-TO-ONE RELATIONSHIPS. > (3). 1 Corinthians 7:$ states "the wife's body does not > belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way > the, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but > also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual > consent and for a time......"THIS INDICATES MUTUAL OWNERSHIP > OF ONE ANOTHER. THERE IS NO INDICATION HERE THAT THE WOMAN > IS THE MAN'S PROPERTY!. > > You see, David, the Bible is available for anyone to research and quote from, > (one does not have to be a Christian or a theologian to read the Bible). I > suggest that as an academic you check your references before you start deceiving > people on socgrad. There is nothing like "the gospel of Peter" whether by any > "Convaluded Reference" - whatever that means. This is another indication of your > lack of knowledge of the very stuff you wish to communicate. I'm afraid you > would need to state which specific sections in the Old Testament state that the > earth is flat! You can't just say anything and get away with it, lest you blame > it on some "professor" next time! > > David, you're the one who first said on this forum that the Bible states when a > women die they would not go to heaven, so please do not go about saying that > Christians are judgemental. Please leave the Christians alone. I do not think > anyone has identified him/herself as a Christian in this debate. This a purely > academic debate that we are asking you to prove what you're dishing out. > > I hope you're not trying to shift the debate into some super-religious stuff. > Perhaps I need to ask you what explanation the theory of evolution has for the > existence and operation of vampires! > > I THINK IT IS ABOUT TIME WE HAD SOME ACADEMIC RESPONSIBILITY ON SOCGRAD. > > David, please bring in your "professor" for explanation, or cough up the answers > yourself, or better still withdraw your statements. > > cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeers, > frisky. > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible > Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail > Date: 9/12/97 15:24 > > > The professor WAS an ordained United Methodist Minister, did quote the > exact Bible verses, Bbut I do not have them here. > As for referring to women as property, I don't know the exact verse, but > If I am not mistaken several times throught the Old Testament and New > Testmant (including one refrence by the 10Commandments in KJV) The Bible > Refers to "A man's wife and his other PROPERTY" inmplying that a man's > wife is his property. Also, if you argue that the Bible has never been > wrong, how do you address the fact that many persons in the Old Testament > have several wives? > > In the gospel of Peter, it makes a Convaluded Refrence, that "And if a > Man is Married, his wife shall not have eternal life" I will try to get > the exact verse if I can. > > In the Old Testament, verses in Numbers, Exodus, Ezikiel refer to "the > Four corners of the earth" > > Why do religous types dismiss evolution? Of the 2 Creation stories in > Genisis, one of them says that God Created the Animals first, then he > created man all in 7 days, several other verses in scripture say that "A > day is 1,000 years in the eyes of the Lord," maybe they left out a few > extra zeros by mistake, then evolution fits in with the Bible. Charles > Darwin never said that Man descended from Monkeys, all he said basically > was what Sociologist Herbert Specencer called "Survival of the fittest," > Those members species that have genes resistant to a particular ailment > will be the only ones to survive to reproduce the next generation, and as > a result SPECIES CHANGE OVER TIME! All Darwin Said is that Species Change > over time, this is not contradictary in any way to the Biblical Creation > story, you can observe this phenomon occuring in the world around us. > > How anyone can be a Christian and go around judging wether other people > will be "saved" or will "parish for eternal life" is beyond me, becuase > their own Bible says that "Jusgement is mine sayeth the Lord." > > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua S. Meisel Meisel@Colorado.EDU Graduate Student, Department of Sociology University of Colorado, Boulder Office: (303)492-6269 Fax: (303)492-8878 * WWW Home Page URL http://socsci.colorado.edu/~meisel/Home.html * From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Tue Sep 16 01:04:18 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id BAA29033 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:04:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pblau.rutgers.edu (pblau.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.75]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA17956 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:04:12 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970916030407.00895cf0@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:04:07 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: netiquette In-Reply-To: <199709151934.MAA13524@weber.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As a subscriber (not a list owner), I would add to Laura's nettiquette suggestions that when you feel like getting nasty, remember, too, that you are in a peer-based field and that your postings to the list are a public representation of your "professional persona" to a large number of your peers. As a courtesy, it's also probably best to sign one's first and last name at the end of your posts. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers At 12:34 PM 9/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >As one of the list owners, I feel like I ought to respond to Thomas' >suggestion to dump certain subscribers. Here I'm only speaking for myself; >the other two list owners may have different ideas. But it's been my >experience that it only invites disaster when an unmoderated list such >as this tries to restrict either topics or subscribers. Therefore, I have >no intention of doing so. Instead, it seems that one should follow Jim's >suggestion -- if a thread (and a particular individual) is driving you crazy, >don't take the bait, and simply stop prolonging the argument. > >I'd also like to make a couple netiquette suggestions. If you feel like >getting real nasty, it's probably a good idea to continue your conversation >privately -- remember, not all messages *have* to posted to the entire list. >Also, I urge you to remember that not all subscribers have unlimited email >box capacity. Therefore, try to consolidate your messages instead of >replying one by one to every post on a single thread. > >Laura Miller >lmiller@ucsd.edu > > From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Sep 16 02:45:52 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id CAA00858 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INP4XKKP9C9BWG2M@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:45:28 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INP4XGGVT099DOET@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id EAA09366 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:45:57 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:45:57 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: RE: teaching competency (was RE: Marriage and Family To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709160845.EAA09366@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Carla wrote: >I guess I would question whether any of us can >engage in scholarly teaching with a month of preparation in an area. We >can lecture, we can provide facts, and we can know more than most of the >students. I aspire to a higher level of scholarship in the teaching of >sociology. What does that mean? How does one operate at this higher level of teaching? I'm usually pretty satisfied by teachers who can provide information in a compelling manner and ask me provocative questions. What have I been missing out on? From slw@U.Arizona.EDU Tue Sep 16 03:43:20 1997 Received: from aruba.u.arizona.edu (aruba.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id DAA02276 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:43:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (slw@localhost) by aruba.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA53070 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:42:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:42:09 -0700 (MST) From: Susan L Wenger To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: RE: teaching competency (was RE: Marriage and Family In-Reply-To: <199709160845.EAA09366@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Thomas F Brown wrote: > Carla wrote: > >I guess I would question whether any of us can > >engage in scholarly teaching with a month of preparation in an area. We > >can lecture, we can provide facts, and we can know more than most of the > >students. I aspire to a higher level of scholarship in the teaching of > >sociology. > > What does that mean? How does one operate at this higher level > of teaching? I'm usually pretty satisfied by teachers who can > provide information in a compelling manner and ask me provocative > questions. What have I been missing out on? It's hard to provide information in a compelling manner when you feel as though you're only a month ahead of your students. If I'm lecturing on a topic I'm just learning about, I'm much more likely to depend on lecture notes, which makes for pretty dry lectures. It also makes it more difficult to tie together all the stray facts I'm presenting. --Susan From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Tue Sep 16 04:47:35 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id EAA03344 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:47:32 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:44:43 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874432562; Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:41:54 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:41:54 GMT Message-Id: <9708168744.AA874432562@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Getting the balance right! _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: Re: Getting the balance right! Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 15/9/97 7:43 PM To M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk: although I am not the list owner, I do know that socgrad is not a forum intended for Bible interpretation or religious proselytizing. I would prefer to keep this space clear in my mailbox for on-topic communications. Is there any reason I should keep you out of my killfile, or are you a one-trick pony? PS: If I were the listowner, you'd have been 86ed a few days ago. From TR.Young@uvm.edu Tue Sep 16 05:07:17 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA03811 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:07:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 05:07:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.7) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.293EEF40@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 7:07:14 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970916070642.367fe00e@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: TR Young Subject: Re: netiquette Well done, Laura Miller!! TR Young At 12:34 PM 9/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >As one of the list owners, I feel like I ought to respond to Thomas' >suggestion to dump certain subscribers. Here I'm only speaking for myself; >the other two list owners may have different ideas. But it's been my >experience that it only invites disaster when an unmoderated list such >as this tries to restrict either topics or subscribers. Therefore, I have >no intention of doing so. Instead, it seems that one should follow Jim's >suggestion -- if a thread (and a particular individual) is driving you crazy, >don't take the bait, and simply stop prolonging the argument. > >I'd also like to make a couple netiquette suggestions. If you feel like >getting real nasty, it's probably a good idea to continue your conversation >privately -- remember, not all messages *have* to posted to the entire list. >Also, I urge you to remember that not all subscribers have unlimited email >box capacity. Therefore, try to consolidate your messages instead of >replying one by one to every post on a single thread. > >Laura Miller >lmiller@ucsd.edu > > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From TR.Young@uvm.edu Tue Sep 16 07:30:29 1997 Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA07007; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 8N9J6 (208.18.225.7) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.29DEE8B0@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 9:30:25 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970916092952.2f6f1114@pop.uvm.edu> X-Sender: tryoung@pop.uvm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: TR Young Subject: Work and Wisdom in the World Cc: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu A new article on the sociology of work has been added to the Red Feather Archives: go to: www.tryoung.com then click on the ARCHIVES button. scroll down to #185 Work and Wisdom in the World by TR Young and Nancy Maxson The article offers an overview of how work should be organized. It begins with Marxian theories of work, continues on to lay out some of the progressive rules for organizing work in religious traditions discussion of forbidden kinds of work now neglected in both sacred and secular texts on the sociology of work. TR Young, Director The Red Feather Institute PS: Do Visit the new Praxis Home Page. A button is provided. PRAXIS is the Insurgent Sociology web site at the University of California, Riverside. Grad students there have done a fine job providing resources for progressive sociology. TRY TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com TR.Young@uvm.edu From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Tue Sep 16 11:07:11 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA15886 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:07:06 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:06:55 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874455559; p 22 Aug 97 23:02:17 GMT Date: p 22 Aug 97 23:02:17 GMT Message-Id: <9708168744.AA874455559@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: Brenda Sue Fergen Cc: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible Dear Brenda Sue Fergen, I'm sorry if my usage of the word "WE" has infuriated you or anyone else on socgrad. I guess when I use the word "WE", I am asking for evidence to support what anyone dishes out to our consumption on the forum. Nevertheless, if you don't like that, I'me very sorry. But perhaps I am a bit worried about what you mean by "argumentative" and "insulting" posts. If a debate is not argumentative, I don't know what it should be. You also need to tell me when and where exactly you think I insulted David Coon. Personally, I don't think asking someone to provide evidence of his statements is insulting! Perhaps terms of yours like "chill out" are rather insulting. Maybe you have to apologise to me! cheers, Michael Amoah _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible Author: Brenda Sue Fergen at :external_mail Date: 16/9/97 2:59 PM Dear Frisky, Who do you think you are? You do not speak for me or, I would guess, many of the other socgrad listserve readers. Please do not suggest in your messages that you somehow represent all of the readers. I think that maybe you should withdraw some of your statements and apologize to David for your argumentative and insulting posts. Just my two cents and I don't have to refer to the bible, I would hope, to support my views! Chill out, Frisky! On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Hi David, > > You have made the following statements: > (1). That Bible says women are second class citizens > (2). That the Bible states that women are man's property > (3). That the Bible states that women would not go to Heaven > when they die! (wherever this heaven is!) > (4). etc. etc. etc. (which etceteras you would probably make > us aware pof un the future!). > > These statements are in themselves very androcentric. > Despite that fact that you've been cautioned that no > sections in the Bible state or imply any such stuff, you're > trying to hide behind some old "professor" of yours. > Definitely, this "professor" of yours, who you claim has a > Ph.D. in theology and is also a UM minister has some kind of > access to e-mail. I suggest that you invite him to CONFIRM > to all of us that he taught you exactly those statements you > have made above (WITH PROOF FROM THE BIBLICAL TEXTS). > Otherwise, we on socgrad take it that you are responsible > for what you say, because as at now, there is no proof that > what you claim was told you by your "professor" was exactly > taught you by him! We're just not sure who is lying here. > Maybe perhaps in the future you need to cross check anything > that any "professor" tells you, and not be too academically > gullible. Afterall that is what the realm of academia is > about! > > > We wil be happy to hear from the "horse's" own mouth, > otherwise, David, you would have to withdraw your > statements. Because we consider them as an attempt at > academic abuse and deception, very typical in the social > sciences, and which needs to be dealt with on this socioolgy > forum. You can't just say anything and get away with it. > Somebody would also try to impart the fallacies you have > communicated somewhere. > > You will be aware that like many other textbooks, there are > sections where the author deliberates and discusses or > takes account of other paradigms, accounts, theories, etc. > which are in existence, as DISTINCT from where the author > states specifically what he/she thinks. You would perhaps > notice that instance of concubinage, polygamy and polygyny > in the Bible are accounts of instances, and are DISTINCT > from specific sections where instructions on the subject are > given, eg: > (1). Exodus 20:17 states "Thou shalt not covet they > neighbour's wife......" > (2). 1 Corinthians 7:2 states that" let each man have his > own wife; and let each woman have her own husband" > EMPHASIZING ONE-TO-ONE RELATIONSHIPS. > (3). 1 Corinthians 7:$ states "the wife's body does not > belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way > the, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but > also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual > consent and for a time......"THIS INDICATES MUTUAL OWNERSHIP > OF ONE ANOTHER. THERE IS NO INDICATION HERE THAT THE WOMAN > IS THE MAN'S PROPERTY!. > > You see, David, the Bible is available for anyone to research and quote from, > (one does not have to be a Christian or a theologian to read the Bible). I > suggest that as an academic you check your references before you start deceiving > people on socgrad. There is nothing like "the gospel of Peter" whether by any > "Convaluded Reference" - whatever that means. This is another indication of your > lack of knowledge of the very stuff you wish to communicate. I'm afraid you > would need to state which specific sections in the Old Testament state that the > earth is flat! You can't just say anything and get away with it, lest you blame > it on some "professor" next time! > > David, you're the one who first said on this forum that the Bible states when a > women die they would not go to heaven, so please do not go about saying that > Christians are judgemental. Please leave the Christians alone. I do not think > anyone has identified him/herself as a Christian in this debate. This a purely > academic debate that we are asking you to prove what you're dishing out. > > I hope you're not trying to shift the debate into some super-religious stuff. > Perhaps I need to ask you what explanation the theory of evolution has for the > existence and operation of vampires! > > I THINK IT IS ABOUT TIME WE HAD SOME ACADEMIC RESPONSIBILITY ON SOCGRAD. > > David, please bring in your "professor" for explanation, or cough up the answers > yourself, or better still withdraw your statements. > > cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeers, > frisky. > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible > Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail > Date: 9/12/97 15:24 > > > The professor WAS an ordained United Methodist Minister, did quote the > exact Bible verses, Bbut I do not have them here. > As for referring to women as property, I don't know the exact verse, but > If I am not mistaken several times throught the Old Testament and New > Testmant (including one refrence by the 10Commandments in KJV) The Bible > Refers to "A man's wife and his other PROPERTY" inmplying that a man's > wife is his property. Also, if you argue that the Bible has never been > wrong, how do you address the fact that many persons in the Old Testament > have several wives? > > In the gospel of Peter, it makes a Convaluded Refrence, that "And if a > Man is Married, his wife shall not have eternal life" I will try to get > the exact verse if I can. > > In the Old Testament, verses in Numbers, Exodus, Ezikiel refer to "the > Four corners of the earth" > > Why do religous types dismiss evolution? Of the 2 Creation stories in > Genisis, one of them says that God Created the Animals first, then he > created man all in 7 days, several other verses in scripture say that "A > day is 1,000 years in the eyes of the Lord," maybe they left out a few > extra zeros by mistake, then evolution fits in with the Bible. Charles > Darwin never said that Man descended from Monkeys, all he said basically > was what Sociologist Herbert Specencer called "Survival of the fittest," > Those members species that have genes resistant to a particular ailment > will be the only ones to survive to reproduce the next generation, and as > a result SPECIES CHANGE OVER TIME! All Darwin Said is that Species Change > over time, this is not contradictary in any way to the Biblical Creation > story, you can observe this phenomon occuring in the world around us. > > How anyone can be a Christian and go around judging wether other people > will be "saved" or will "parish for eternal life" is beyond me, becuase > their own Bible says that "Jusgement is mine sayeth the Lord." > > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Tue Sep 16 11:16:43 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA16358 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:16:36 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:16:32 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874456141; p 22 Aug 97 23:12:06 GMT Date: p 22 Aug 97 23:12:06 GMT Message-Id: <9708168744.AA874456141@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: marriage and family thread (fwd) Dear Bruce Michael Reid, Kindly tell me where I have called anyone any "name" under any circumstance during this debate, and what manner of mine you think is offensive. Maybe I need to ask you a question: do you not think that making false references from whatever book is academically offensive in itself,and that this needs to be challenged? Maybe you need to direct your "fighting" to the cause of the challenge. cheers, Michael Amoah _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: Re: marriage and family thread (fwd) Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 16/9/97 1:54 AM A friend of mine has been having problems responding to SOCGRAD and he asked me to pass this message along (see below) Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:40:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce Michael Reid To: dcoon@ksu.edu Subject: Re: marriage and family thread (fwd) David can you pass this on to the socgrad list.... Frisky seems to have scholarly debate confused with name calling and fighting. Contrary to what Frisky suggests in his/her message our responsibility as scholars to higher knowledge and academic achievements is not "fighting". Might I suggest scholarly debate..I concur with Jim. Frisky needs to be ignored until he/she can conduct him/herself in a less than offensive manner. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 20:01:37 GMT From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Hahahahaaaaaaaaa Pam, Lets not get apologetic here and let David Coon off the hook. You really think I've got my head in the sand haven't you? We'll soon find out! I'm just not comfortable with misquotations and misrepresentations from any book under the sun. Thats what we need to fight within the social sciences, where it seems anyone can just say anything and get away with it. We are talking about academic responsibility. Either David Coon or his famous "professor" have to answer for this. cheers, frisky. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: marriage and family thread Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 9/13/97 15:09 Thanks for your comments David! Actually, now I think I might have given the wrong impression in my post because I was angry. I PERSONALLY think that having two wives is wrong (and that other things such as adultery are wrong). I'm not sure its ethical to TEACH that IN the classroom however. To be frank, I'm worried about both ends of the spectrum represented in this discussion--both Frisky with his 'head in the sand' perspective on the Bible and Christian with his 'uninformed ranting' against Christians and the Bible. Neither attitude in the classroom would represent sociology well. Good sociology includes critical thinking deeper than anything these two gentlemen have displayed. Pam Paxton ps. David, I wouldn't worry about offending anyone. Your comments are among the least offensive in this thread (including, probably, my own!) On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Dave Alan Coon (: wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:28:52 -0500 (CDT) > From: Dave Alan Coon (: > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: marriage and family thread > > > I agree totally with Pam Paxton's posting.I did not mean to suggest that > it was "wrong" to have more than one wife. Perhaps I should retract that > statement, nothing should be considered right or wrong except in the context > of a society. Nothing is inherently right or wrong, it is only defined as such > by a particular society. American Society (the USA) has tended to > legislate that it is "wrong" or illegal to have more than one wife at a > time, that is what I was getting at. > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Tue Sep 16 11:28:22 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA17260 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:28:17 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:27:58 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874456801; p 22 Aug 97 23:18:05 GMT Date: p 22 Aug 97 23:18:05 GMT Message-Id: <9708168744.AA874456801@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible (fwd) Dear Josh Meisel, I'm very sorry if my usage of the word "WE" has offended you in any way. I used the word "WE" on the basis that David Coon had given the wrong references for "OUR" academic consumption. But perhaps it is "inappropriate" and "unacceptable" for you to say anything "stinkin" about my nickname. cheers, Michael Amoah _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible (fwd) Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 16/9/97 4:22 AM Forwarded Message ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:39:17 -0600 (MDT) From: Meisel Joshua To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Marriage/Family & Bible "Frisky", On what basis are you speaking for subscribers to the socgrads list?????? Your comments are your comments only and any reference to a collective "we" is totally inappropriate and unacceptable. Josh "I don't need to hide behind no stinkin nickname" Meisel On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: > Hi David, > > You have made the following statements: > (1). That Bible says women are second class citizens > (2). That the Bible states that women are man's property > (3). That the Bible states that women would not go to Heaven > when they die! (wherever this heaven is!) > (4). etc. etc. etc. (which etceteras you would probably make > us aware pof un the future!). > > These statements are in themselves very androcentric. > Despite that fact that you've been cautioned that no > sections in the Bible state or imply any such stuff, you're > trying to hide behind some old "professor" of yours. > Definitely, this "professor" of yours, who you claim has a > Ph.D. in theology and is also a UM minister has some kind of > access to e-mail. I suggest that you invite him to CONFIRM > to all of us that he taught you exactly those statements you > have made above (WITH PROOF FROM THE BIBLICAL TEXTS). > Otherwise, we on socgrad take it that you are responsible > for what you say, because as at now, there is no proof that > what you claim was told you by your "professor" was exactly > taught you by him! We're just not sure who is lying here. > Maybe perhaps in the future you need to cross check anything > that any "professor" tells you, and not be too academically > gullible. Afterall that is what the realm of academia is > about! > > > We wil be happy to hear from the "horse's" own mouth, > otherwise, David, you would have to withdraw your > statements. Because we consider them as an attempt at > academic abuse and deception, very typical in the social > sciences, and which needs to be dealt with on this socioolgy > forum. You can't just say anything and get away with it. > Somebody would also try to impart the fallacies you have > communicated somewhere. > > You will be aware that like many other textbooks, there are > sections where the author deliberates and discusses or > takes account of other paradigms, accounts, theories, etc. > which are in existence, as DISTINCT from where the author > states specifically what he/she thinks. You would perhaps > notice that instance of concubinage, polygamy and polygyny > in the Bible are accounts of instances, and are DISTINCT > from specific sections where instructions on the subject are > given, eg: > (1). Exodus 20:17 states "Thou shalt not covet they > neighbour's wife......" > (2). 1 Corinthians 7:2 states that" let each man have his > own wife; and let each woman have her own husband" > EMPHASIZING ONE-TO-ONE RELATIONSHIPS. > (3). 1 Corinthians 7:$ states "the wife's body does not > belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way > the, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but > also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual > consent and for a time......"THIS INDICATES MUTUAL OWNERSHIP > OF ONE ANOTHER. THERE IS NO INDICATION HERE THAT THE WOMAN > IS THE MAN'S PROPERTY!. > > You see, David, the Bible is available for anyone to research and quote from, > (one does not have to be a Christian or a theologian to read the Bible). I > suggest that as an academic you check your references before you start deceiving > people on socgrad. There is nothing like "the gospel of Peter" whether by any > "Convaluded Reference" - whatever that means. This is another indication of your > lack of knowledge of the very stuff you wish to communicate. I'm afraid you > would need to state which specific sections in the Old Testament state that the > earth is flat! You can't just say anything and get away with it, lest you blame > it on some "professor" next time! > > David, you're the one who first said on this forum that the Bible states when a > women die they would not go to heaven, so please do not go about saying that > Christians are judgemental. Please leave the Christians alone. I do not think > anyone has identified him/herself as a Christian in this debate. This a purely > academic debate that we are asking you to prove what you're dishing out. > > I hope you're not trying to shift the debate into some super-religious stuff. > Perhaps I need to ask you what explanation the theory of evolution has for the > existence and operation of vampires! > > I THINK IT IS ABOUT TIME WE HAD SOME ACADEMIC RESPONSIBILITY ON SOCGRAD. > > David, please bring in your "professor" for explanation, or cough up the answers > yourself, or better still withdraw your statements. > > cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeers, > frisky. > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marriage/Family & Bible > Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail > Date: 9/12/97 15:24 > > > The professor WAS an ordained United Methodist Minister, did quote the > exact Bible verses, Bbut I do not have them here. > As for referring to women as property, I don't know the exact verse, but > If I am not mistaken several times throught the Old Testament and New > Testmant (including one refrence by the 10Commandments in KJV) The Bible > Refers to "A man's wife and his other PROPERTY" inmplying that a man's > wife is his property. Also, if you argue that the Bible has never been > wrong, how do you address the fact that many persons in the Old Testament > have several wives? > > In the gospel of Peter, it makes a Convaluded Refrence, that "And if a > Man is Married, his wife shall not have eternal life" I will try to get > the exact verse if I can. > > In the Old Testament, verses in Numbers, Exodus, Ezikiel refer to "the > Four corners of the earth" > > Why do religous types dismiss evolution? Of the 2 Creation stories in > Genisis, one of them says that God Created the Animals first, then he > created man all in 7 days, several other verses in scripture say that "A > day is 1,000 years in the eyes of the Lord," maybe they left out a few > extra zeros by mistake, then evolution fits in with the Bible. Charles > Darwin never said that Man descended from Monkeys, all he said basically > was what Sociologist Herbert Specencer called "Survival of the fittest," > Those members species that have genes resistant to a particular ailment > will be the only ones to survive to reproduce the next generation, and as > a result SPECIES CHANGE OVER TIME! All Darwin Said is that Species Change > over time, this is not contradictary in any way to the Biblical Creation > story, you can observe this phenomon occuring in the world around us. > > How anyone can be a Christian and go around judging wether other people > will be "saved" or will "parish for eternal life" is beyond me, becuase > their own Bible says that "Jusgement is mine sayeth the Lord." > > > Sincerely, > > David Coon > http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon > MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 > Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ > Kansas State University > ============================================================================== > Ideas that are real 'are real in their consequences' paraphrase of W.I. Thomas > ============================================================================== > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua S. Meisel Meisel@Colorado.EDU Graduate Student, Department of Sociology University of Colorado, Boulder Office: (303)492-6269 Fax: (303)492-8878 * WWW Home Page URL http://socsci.colorado.edu/~meisel/Home.html * From jmote@pewtrusts.com Tue Sep 16 11:37:36 1997 Received: from pewtrusts.com (pewtrusts.com [204.242.21.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA17753 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:37:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PEW-Message_Server by pewtrusts.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:39:17 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:35:13 -0500 From: "Jonathon E. Mote" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: CFP -- NCSA, By Body Bound Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline FYI. Jon ********************* CALL FOR PAPERS Nineteenth-Century Studies Association Announces its annual conference BY BODY BOUND Keynote speaker: James R. Kincaid University of Southern California Author of _Child-Loving: the Erotic Child and Victorian Culture_, 1992 _Annoying the Victorians_, 1995 _Erotic Innocence_, forthcoming spring 1998 NCSA, an interdisciplinary association for the study of nineteenth-century cultures-- British, American, and continental-- announces its 17th annual conference, BY BODY BOUND, to be hosted by the University of Alabama in Huntsville, 2-4 April 1998. The conference invites cultural, social, historical, literary, aesthetic, political, scientific, and philosophical perspectives on the nineteenth-century body. We invite papers from multiple disciplines that consider all manner of nineteenth-century materials, such as its art and artifacts; literature; religious, scientific, or legal writing; social, political, and economic debate. Papers might consider: Representing the body, the aesthetic, the decadent, the subjugated, the domesticated, the radicalized, the imperial and colonized, the criminal, the grotesque; the young; the old; Decorating the body; marking it; theatricalizing it; dressing and undressing it; Reading the body, phrenology, and physiognomy; Diagnosing the body and its ills; the working body, the way to health; diet, excercise, regimens, sanitation; social planning, workplace reform and housing; The dying body and the dead body; The spirited body; ghosts; the release from the body; Body politics, gender and sexuality; prostitution; purity; reproduction; The Darwinian body, evolving or degenerating; The economic body and the legislated body; The body as social metaphor; the body politic; Bodies of work. Two copies of proposals (one to two pages) for twenty-minute papers should be accompanied by a brief curriculum vita and a 50-75 word abstract. Proposals for panels or for other topics for open sessions are also welcome. All materials should reach the Program Directors by mail no later than 1 October 1997. You may email queries, but NOT proposals. Decisions will be announced by December 1997. Send to: David Stewart or Julie English Early Department of Art Department of English Roberts Hall Morton Hall stewartd@email.uah.edu earlyj@email.uah.edu The University of Alabama in Huntsville Huntsville, AL 35899 From jmote@pewtrusts.com Tue Sep 16 11:37:39 1997 Received: from pewtrusts.com (pewtrusts.com [204.242.21.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id LAA17763 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:37:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PEW-Message_Server by pewtrusts.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:39:17 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:36:41 -0500 From: "Jonathon E. Mote" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: CFP -- WSSA, American Studies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Another FYI. Jon ********************* CALL FOR PAPERS: The Western Social Science Association invites papers and panels on American Studies topics for its annual conference, April 15-18, 1998, in Denver, CO. Subjects may range broadly over the social sciences, arts, and humanities. Please request application forms from: Daniel J. McInerny WSSA-American Studies Coordinator Department of History Utah State University Logan, UT 84322-0710 Phone: 801.797.1283 Fax: 801.797.3899 E-mail: danielj@wpo.hass.usu.edu OR, submit the following to the address above: 1. title of paper + abstract (not to exceed 150 words) 2. c.v. 3. postal/email addresses + phone/fax numbers 4. audio-video equipment needs Due date for proposals: November 1, 1997 NOTE: Scholars willing to serve as moderators/discussants should indicate their interests Daniel J. McInerny From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Tue Sep 16 11:39:08 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA17852 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:39:06 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:38:43 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874457447; p 22 Aug 97 23:28:37 GMT Date: p 22 Aug 97 23:28:37 GMT Message-Id: <9708168744.AA874457447@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re[2]: netiquette Hi Folks, I think I agree with Laura Millers' and other views about subscribers. I think it is observable that sometimes when people's views are being challenged they tend to think that they are being bashed, and then their "friends" also come in to try and defend blindly. I think we need to recognise the fact that challenging a person's views or statements is not tantamount to "insulting" their personality. Every now and then anyone can make a mistake in what they dish out, and when this is challenged, flaws need to be graciously accepted. Also, some debates sometimes tend to have a longer period than others, and I think it is an individual choice to contribute or delete what you do not like! cheers everyone, Michael Amoah (not trying to reply to every mail!!!!!) _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: Re: netiquette Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 16/9/97 8:01 AM As a subscriber (not a list owner), I would add to Laura's nettiquette suggestions that when you feel like getting nasty, remember, too, that you are in a peer-based field and that your postings to the list are a public representation of your "professional persona" to a large number of your peers. As a courtesy, it's also probably best to sign one's first and last name at the end of your posts. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers At 12:34 PM 9/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >As one of the list owners, I feel like I ought to respond to Thomas' >suggestion to dump certain subscribers. Here I'm only speaking for myself; >the other two list owners may have different ideas. But it's been my >experience that it only invites disaster when an unmoderated list such >as this tries to restrict either topics or subscribers. Therefore, I have >no intention of doing so. Instead, it seems that one should follow Jim's >suggestion -- if a thread (and a particular individual) is driving you crazy, >don't take the bait, and simply stop prolonging the argument. > >I'd also like to make a couple netiquette suggestions. If you feel like >getting real nasty, it's probably a good idea to continue your conversation >privately -- remember, not all messages *have* to posted to the entire list. >Also, I urge you to remember that not all subscribers have unlimited email >box capacity. Therefore, try to consolidate your messages instead of >replying one by one to every post on a single thread. > >Laura Miller >lmiller@ucsd.edu > > From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Tue Sep 16 11:58:25 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id LAA18558 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:58:24 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:58:18 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874458651; p 22 Aug 97 23:49:20 GMT Date: p 22 Aug 97 23:49:20 GMT Message-Id: <9708168744.AA874458651@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible Dear Nicole R. Pallotta, Could you please tell me where exactly I told TR Young to "get off the list........"? Also could you possibly tell the difference between bashing David Coon's arguments and bashing David Coon? Thank you. Michael Amoah. _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 15/9/97 8:58 PM Frisky, Will you PLEASE stop bashing David Coon already!!!!! He is not your whipping boy; stop bringing him up in every post as a scapegoat for your un-sociological bible thumping. Your attitude is neither professional nor courteous and I think many of us are sick to death of your barrage of innane postings attacking people rather than deconstructing ideas. Well, so as not to make your mistake of referring to a generalized and undefined WE for whom you claim to speak, I will change that to "*I* am sick of your inanne . . ." Word up to everyone who suggested Mr. Frisky take a rest. My mailbox is full. One final (yeah right) word here: POWER. It is all very nice to say the bible has a number of interpretations, that they are historically variable, multivocal texts, blah blah blah, but this benign view of the politics of interpretation ignores structures of power completely. What we as sociologists should be analysing with regard to the bible (or any other socially constructed text, including a soc textbook) is under what conditions certain interpretations come to be legitimated, what form these legitimations take, and to the benefit of whom? This is a sociological perspective; peddling our personal views regarding the bible's (un)truth or (in)validity is not. As I write this, TWO more messages come through from you, Frisky. Is there anyone with whom you agree? You are having a lot of fun directing people to post here, don't post there, do this, do that. Why don't you just lay off? And don't tell TR Young to get off the list, or that his post was/is inappropriate for this forum; some of us want him here. Can you imagine how many people want to tell you to get lost but are trying to maintain a degree of decorum? You would do well to try some of the same. I can't believe how far this thread has gone into the gutter. CHEERS Nicole R. Pallotta Department of Sociology University of Georgia Athens, Ga. 30602-1611 (706) 542-3192 cmsnikki@uga.cc.uga.edu From kharmel@plains.NoDak.edu Tue Sep 16 12:04:37 1997 Received: from plains.NoDak.edu (plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA19031 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:04:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from census7.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu (census7.ag.ndsu.NoDak.edu [134.129.92.134]) by plains.NoDak.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17717; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:04:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:04:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709161804.NAA17717@plains.NoDak.edu> X-Sender: kharmel@plains.nodak.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, Sociology Graduate Students -- International From: kharmel@plains.NoDak.edu (Kaye Boeke) Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible Please please!! If you are addressing one person, please write that particular person! I am not interested in the arguments about "who said what." Thanks so much!! At 11:49 PM 8/22/1997 GMT, M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk wrote: >Dear Nicole R. Pallotta, > >Could you please tell me where exactly I told TR Young to >"get off the list........"? Also could you possibly tell the difference >between bashing David Coon's arguments and bashing David Coon? > >Thank you. > >Michael Amoah. > >_______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ > >Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible >Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail >Date: 15/9/97 8:58 PM > >Frisky, Will you PLEASE stop bashing David Coon already!!!!! >He is not your whipping boy; stop bringing him up in every post as a >scapegoat for your un-sociological bible thumping. > >Your attitude is neither professional nor courteous and I think many >of us are sick to death of your barrage of innane postings attacking >people rather than deconstructing ideas. > >Well, so as not to make your mistake of referring to a generalized >and undefined WE for whom you claim to speak, I will change that to >"*I* am sick of your inanne . . ." > >Word up to everyone who suggested Mr. Frisky take a rest. My mailbox >is full. > >One final (yeah right) word here: POWER. It is all very nice to say the >bible has a number of interpretations, that they are historically >variable, multivocal texts, blah blah blah, but this benign view of the >politics of interpretation ignores structures of power completely. >What we as sociologists should be analysing with regard to the bible >(or any other socially constructed text, including a soc textbook) is >under what conditions certain interpretations come to be legitimated, >what form these legitimations take, and to the benefit of whom? This is >a sociological perspective; peddling our personal views regarding the >bible's (un)truth or (in)validity is not. > >As I write this, TWO more messages come through from you, Frisky. Is >there anyone with whom you agree? You are having a lot of fun >directing people to post here, don't post there, do this, do that. >Why don't you just lay off? And don't tell TR Young to get off the >list, or that his post was/is inappropriate for this forum; some of us want >him here. Can you imagine how many people want to tell you to get lost >but are trying to maintain a degree of decorum? You would do well to >try some of the same. I can't believe how far this thread has gone >into the gutter. > >CHEERS > > >Nicole R. Pallotta >Department of Sociology >University of Georgia >Athens, Ga. 30602-1611 >(706) 542-3192 >cmsnikki@uga.cc.uga.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kaye D Boeke, Graduate Researcher phone: (701) 231-7980 North Dakota State Data Center FAX: (701) 231-9730 IACC 424E, NDSU email: kharmel@plains.nodak.edu Fargo, ND 58105 home phone: (701) 293-9255 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Fargo. It's flat... but it's cold" (seen on a hat at Zandbroz Variety) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Tue Sep 16 12:10:48 1997 Received: from pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id MAA19408 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:10:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minerva.cis.yale.edu (danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu [130.132.143.250]) by pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14483 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danryan@localhost) by minerva.cis.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA04127 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:10:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: minerva.cis.yale.edu: danryan owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:10:41 -0400 (EDT) From: dan ryan X-Sender: danryan@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible In-Reply-To: <9708168744.AA874458651@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was in a seminar yesterday in which forms of social control were discussed. After going through numerous "activist" forms someone mentioned ridicule as a powerful form of control. Another person then pointed out that still more powerful can be the simple act of totally ignoring someone. Another person noted that it may not be so simple since sometimes it is hard to do, but that it is very powerful when it is accomplished. It was an interesting point. dan ryan From deinya@unm.edu Tue Sep 16 13:56:06 1997 Received: from argo.unm.edu (argo.unm.edu [129.24.9.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA22797 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:56:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost by argo.unm.edu via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:56:04 -0600 (MDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #6 built 1996-Jul-22) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:56:04 -0600 (MDT) From: deinya phenix To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: please remind me how to get off this list In-Reply-To: <34189159.12F8@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII please remind me how to get off this list... From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Sep 16 16:41:50 1997 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id QAA28931 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:41:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INPY4FWU3499DR67@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:41:43 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INPY4BFTQY99DUPC@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA09643 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:41:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:41:16 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: RE: teaching competency (was RE: Marriage and Family To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709162241.SAA09643@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >>>I guess I would question whether any of us can >>>engage in scholarly teaching with a month of preparation in an area. We >>>can lecture, we can provide facts, and we can know more than most of the >>>students. I aspire to a higher level of scholarship in the teaching of >>>sociology. >> >> What does that mean? How does one operate at this higher level >> of teaching? I'm usually pretty satisfied by teachers who can >> provide information in a compelling manner and ask me provocative >> questions. What have I been missing out on? > >It's hard to provide information in a compelling manner when you feel as >though you're only a month ahead of your students. If I'm lecturing on a >topic I'm just learning about, I'm much more likely to depend on lecture >notes, which makes for pretty dry lectures. It also makes it more >difficult to tie together all the stray facts I'm presenting. Sure, having a month to prepare is ridiculous and makes the job much harder than necessary. But I can still do it, and do it with a reasonable level of competence. What I want to know is: what does "a higher level of scholarship in teaching" mean? Does it just refer to some greater quantity of months that I'm ahead of my students, or is there some real qualitative difference in my capability? I don't see being comfortable and loose as being terribly important. I don't see my job as being a compelling lecturer. It's a nice quality to be able to bring, and it's certainly worth aiming for, but it's really not the crux of the job. From James.Chivers@Colorado.EDU Tue Sep 16 17:17:34 1997 Received: from ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ucsu.Colorado.EDU [128.138.129.83]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA01789 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:17:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (chivers@localhost) by ucsu.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p) with SMTP id RAA16839 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:16:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:16:59 -0600 (MDT) From: CHIVERS JAMES FARREL To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Flames: Marriage/Family and Bible In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Soc Grad list, Can we start a new thread... I hearby apologize for everything that has been said to every one... I hope no one is left with their feeling hurt but... I am tired of this noise. How about them Yankees? Jim Chivers From slw@U.Arizona.EDU Tue Sep 16 18:34:20 1997 Received: from aruba.u.arizona.edu (aruba.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id SAA03928 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:34:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (slw@localhost) by aruba.u.arizona.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA29790 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:33:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:33:00 -0700 (MST) From: Susan L Wenger To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: RE: teaching competency In-Reply-To: <199709162241.SAA09643@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Thomas F Brown wrote: > Sure, having a month to prepare is ridiculous and makes the job much > harder than necessary. But I can still do it, and do it with a > reasonable level of competence. What I want to know is: what > does "a higher level of scholarship in teaching" mean? > > Does it just refer to some greater quantity of months that I'm > ahead of my students, or is there some real qualitative difference > in my capability? I don't see being comfortable and loose as > being terribly important. I don't see my job as being a compelling > lecturer. It's a nice quality to be able to bring, and it's > certainly worth aiming for, but it's really not the crux of the job. It may be that you're capable of preparing more fully than I am in a month's time. The best I could do in such circumstances is to gain just enough knowledge to be able to present the material to my class. I would have less of a sense of the big picture than I would like, and a much more superficial understanding of the material than I feel comfortable with when teaching. Off the subject... To the netiquette suggestions offered above, I would add that it's a good idea to cut old text whenever possible in our replies. I try to leave in whatever I'm directly replying to and delete everything that's not relevant. Otherwise, we can end up with three lines of new text appended to 200 lines that we've already read. --Susan From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Sep 16 20:05:33 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id UAA05617 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:05:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2759; Tue, 16 Sep 97 22:05:41 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9777; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:05:41 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 22:00:40 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Preparing for teaching To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970916.220541.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am not so sure the question is whether 1 month is or is not sufficient time to prepare for a course. Part of the reason is there is mental preparation and physical preparation (the former often taking more time in advance). The thing is students know very quickly if the Instructor is into teaching the class, and they know equally well if a lecture was thought through in advance or scrubbed together in the 1 hour before class. Anyone can just spit back a text to students with 1 day notice, for that matter. I do think the question we need to look at is the ethics of having Instructors hired at the last minute (a week in advance) regardless of the course they are teaching. It is just not an ethical system to have people routinely hanging on a thread as to whether they will be employed from one semester to the next, pure and simple. From pfl661@airmail.net Tue Sep 16 22:22:11 1997 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id WAA11762 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:22:09 -0600 (MDT) From: pfl661@airmail.net Received: from internet america.airmail.net from [206.138.226.148] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.181) with smtp for id ; Tue, 16 Sep 97 23:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341F5B36.2274@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:23:18 -0500 Reply-To: pfl661@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Preparing for teaching Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If we only need to get the book and read it, then why are we going through this hazing thing called grad school? Why not just have someone at Columbia or Chicago or wherever make lesson plans and then sell them. The mass production schools then could hire someone reasonably attractive with a nice speaking voice to deliever the lesson plan. I'd like to think that the years I have spent preparing in my area add something to my performance in the classroom. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Alan Davidson I am not so sure the question is whether 1 month is or is not sufficient time to prepare for a course. Part of the reason is there is mental preparation and physical preparation (the former often taking more time in advance). The thing is students know very quickly if the Instructor is into teaching the class, and they know equally well if a lecture was thought through in advance or scrubbed together in the 1 hour before class. Anyone can just spit back a text to students with 1 day notice, for that matter. I do think the question we need to look at is the ethics of having Instructors hired at the last minute (a week in advance) regardless of the course they are teaching. It is just not an ethical system to have people routinely hanging on a thread as to whether they will be employed from one semester to the next, pure and simple. From j.sloggett@uws.edu.au Wed Sep 17 00:17:11 1997 Received: from ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU [137.154.72.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id AAA15751 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:17:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from julie-sloggett.macarthur.uws.edu.au ([137.154.93.103]) by ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA74045 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:14:01 +1100 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:14:01 +1100 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970917170523.2b679380@ariel.macarthur.uws.edu.au> X-Sender: a9500694@ariel.macarthur.uws.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: julie sloggett Subject: casual teaching - life on the edge >I do think the question we need to look at is the ethics of having Instructors >hired at the last minute (a week in advance) regardless of the course they >are teaching. It is just not an ethical system to have people routinely >hanging on a thread as to whether they will be employed from one semester >to the next, pure and simple. > Hear Hear!!! This is the bane of my existence as a casual tutor. I'm not sure if the system is the same where you are - wherever that may be - but here in the Land of Oz, the rule seems to be to tease you with the prospect of work, and then keep you dangling until a day or two before the start of semester. For me, this has meant that in the past, i have over committed myself by accepting bits of work all over the place, just in case the uni i am attached to doesn't com up with the goods. The joys of being a casual... it's enough to give you an ulcer. Julie From Chris.Dunn@massey.ac.nz Wed Sep 17 05:14:34 1997 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id FAA21314 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ChrisDunn.massey.ac.nz (actually cc-ra4000-1-22) by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:14:13 +1200 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970920111726.00681270@mail.massey.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:17:26 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Chris Dunn Subject: Demographic Transition Model. Ok all you theological experts, I'd like to divert your attention and ask your advice and opinion. My question is: How relevant is the Demographic Transition Model of population growth to describing population growth in current "3rd World" countries? (The Demographic Transition Model describes the change in population levels in Europe over the 200+ years following the indstrial revolution as an 'S' curve from a low, 'stable' population with high birth and death rates, through a population explosion to a new stable level with low birth and death rates). I have a strong feeling that the comparison is not valid, and that the dynamics of industrial capitalism are implicated, but I am not clear how. For example, population increase in the United Kingdom led to mass emmigration (9 million people in the first half of the 1800s) to greener pastures (usually someone else's in the form of colonisation). Similar mass emmigrations are no longer possible and population growth leads to famine. Any comments? Regards, Chris. Chris Dunn Chris.Dunn@massey.ac.nz MA student home phone 0064-6-357-6460 Sociology Department fax 0064-6-323-3909 Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Sep 17 07:30:00 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA24535 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:29:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INQSZIEHJ499DO04@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:28:47 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INQSYLFIE699DU72@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id JAA13589 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:24:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:24:49 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Preparing for teaching To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I do think the question we need to look at is the ethics of having Instructors >hired at the last minute (a week in advance) regardless of the course they >are teaching. It is just not an ethical system to have people routinely >hanging on a thread as to whether they will be employed from one semester >to the next, pure and simple. Certainly this is the central problem. And if these workers are not fully motivated or competent to do their jobs, it doesn't make sense to blame their alienation on their personal lack of ethics, when the real problem is the unethical system they're working in. From dcoon@ksu.edu Wed Sep 17 07:40:35 1997 Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA24804 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nbc (dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/mailhub+tar@ksu.edu) with SMTP id IAA06812 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:40:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nbc (SMI-8.6/1.34) id IAA24652; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:40:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:40:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Dave Alan Coon (:" X-Sender: dcoon@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Demographic Transition Model. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970920111726.00681270@mail.massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, the widespread introduction of antibiotics, vaccinations, and better availiilty of food because of overproduction in the US (at the cost of long term sustainability to the environment no less) have all contributed to a change in mortality in the Low income countries (a more prefered term than 3rd world). The Demograpic Transition did not really take these factors into account because It was written to explain Changes in Europe long ago. It was not until the 1950s that antibiotics were introduced on a massive scale to low income countries. Sincerely, Dave Al Coon http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon MA Student & Graduate Teaching Asst. Office: (785)532-4972 Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology, & Social Work http://www.ksu.edu/sasw/ Kansas State University ============================================================================== "Situations that define themselves as real are real in their consequences" --W.I. Thomas ============================================================================== From metraux@sas.upenn.edu Wed Sep 17 07:45:00 1997 Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA25149 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:44:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from metraux@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id JAA14023 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:44:58 -0400 (EDT) From: metraux@sas.upenn.edu (Stephen Metraux) Message-Id: <199709171344.JAA14023@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Marriage/Family texts To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:44:57 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> from "Thomas F Brown" at Sep 17, 97 09:24:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In light of a recent thread that's been on this list, an article in today's (Sept. 17) NY Times may be of interest. Steve College Textbooks Dwell on Bad Aspects of Marriage, Study Says By TAMAR LEWIN College students are being taught a pessimistic and sometimes inaccurate view of marriage, with great emphasis on issues like divorce and domestic violence, and little attention to the benefits of marriage, particularly for child-rearing, according to a new study of undergraduate textbooks on marriage and family. "Both by what they say and sometimes even more importantly, by the information they omit, these books repeatedly suggest that marriage is more a problem than a solution," said the report, issued Wednesday by the Institute for American Values' Council on Families, a nonpartisan group of family experts. "The potential costs of marriage to adults, particularly women, often receive exaggerated treatment, while the benefits of marriage, both to individuals and society, are frequently downplayed or ignored." The report, written by Norval Glenn, a sociology professor at the University of Texas at Austin, examined 20 college texts published in 1994, 1995 and the first three months of 1996 with "marriage" or "family" in the title or subtitle. Glenn found that the social science textbooks shortchanged children's issues, devoting far more pages to adult problems and relationships than to the well-being of children. He also cited factual errors, like the assertion that most babies born out of wedlock are born to teen-agers and that divorced people are the most sexually active. The report comes at a time when policy experts are split over how to react to change in families. "The debate on families has been divided, with one pole seeing the trend to single-parent families and childbearing outside marriage as benign adaptations and the other seeing these trends as a serious threat to the well-being of children and society," said David Blankenhorn, president of the Institute for American Values, a nonprofit group concerned with families that is based in New York. "In the last 10 years, the center of gravity has shifted from the first to the second, but the textbooks still seem to be stuck in the '70s world view that celebrates family diversity and sees the traditional family structure as suspicious." Depending on who is judging, the Institute's Council on Families is described as somewhere between centrist and conservative. Some members, including Ray Marshall and William Galston, have strong Democratic ties, while others, including Judith Wallerstein and Barbara Dafoe Whitehead, are known solely for their writing on family policy. The Council takes the position that divorce is too prevalent and that families without fathers are less than optimal for children. While there is wide consensus for this view, some experts criticize the Council for failing to deal with the realities of today's families -- some, including Stephanie Coontz, author of "The Way We Really Are: Coming to Terms With America's Changing Families," going so far as to maintain that that failure places the Council squarely in the conservative camp. "Textbooks have to negotiate a fine line, that 50 percent of kids don't live in families with their two married biological parents, so do you tell them they're doomed, or do you work with what you've got," said Ms. Coontz, a historian at Evergreen State College. "Not everybody on either side walks that line well, and I don't think the Council on Families does." "Much of what they say is unassailable," she said, "but there are still plenty of marriages that are unfair and toxic. They tend to leave out the adjectives: A good marriage has its benefits, but a bad marriage doesn't, a good parental alliance makes for good child-rearing, but not all two-parent families do that." In its report on the textbooks, the Council gave an "A" for balanced treatment and sound scholarship to only one book: "Public and Private Families: An Introduction" by Andrew Cherlin, a sociology professor at Johns Hopkins. None of the books got higher than a "C" on adequate coverage of crucial topics. The most overtly anti-marriage rhetoric, the report said, was in "Changing Families," by Judy Root Aulette. "Aulette devotes three of 14 chapters largely to marriage: 'Battering and Marital Rape,' 'Divorce and Remarriage,' and simply 'Marriage,' none of which contains a single mention of any beneficial consequences of marriage to individuals or society," the report said. From matteson@acsu.buffalo.edu Wed Sep 17 08:49:58 1997 Received: from callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu (callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.122]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id IAA28259 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:49:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 29058 invoked by uid 10226); 17 Sep 1997 14:49:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Don Matteson Reply-To: Don Matteson To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Demographic Transition Model. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970920111726.00681270@mail.massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Chris Dunn wrote: > How relevant is the Demographic Transition Model of population growth to > describing population growth in current "3rd World" countries? > > (The Demographic Transition Model describes the change in population levels > in Europe over the 200+ years following the indstrial revolution as an 'S' > curve from a low, 'stable' population with high birth and death rates, > through a population explosion to a new stable level with low birth and > death rates). > *snip* Chris (and others) -- I'd hazard a guess that demographic transition theory isn't a very good model for "3rd World" countries. Demographic transition theory (DTT) is a descriptive, empirically based model that re-hashes population dynamics as they existed in Europe. I suspect it'd be a stretch to say that we're seeing the same thing in developing nations today. Even as a descriptive model, DTT leaves something to be desired. DTT does a fairly poor job of describing the population dynamics in Europe -- oftentimes population dynamics (fertility in particular) varied quite a bit between provinces (Teitelbaum discusses that in his article; see the cite below). Anyhow, there are a couple of good articles/books out there that might be worth reading: Teitelbaum, Michael S. 1975. "The Relevance of Demograhpic Transition Theory for Developing Countries." _Science_ 188:420-425. Coale, Ansley J. and Susan Cotts Watkins. 1975. _The Decline of Fertilty in Europe: The Revised Proceedings of a Conference on the Princeton European Fertility Project_. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. (I think it's 1975; the first chapter, by Coale, talks about fertility decline in 18th century Europe) Related to this is material on the Epidemiologic Transition (to which David Alan Coon alluded a bit), which provides an overview of mortality decline. A good exposition of the epidemiologic transition can be found in: Omran, Abdel R. 1982. "Epidemiologic Transition." Pp. 172-183 in _Encyclopedia of Population_, edited by J.R. Ross. New York: Free Press. > > I have a strong feeling that the comparison is not valid, and that the > dynamics of industrial capitalism are implicated, but I am not clear how. > *snip* The standard line with DTT is that industrialization has destroyed the "props" that kept fertility high in pre-transition societies. The causal mechanism isn't really very well laid out, as I recall, but it isn't hard to imagine how that might work. Maybe that'd be a fun discussion.... Don ____________________________________________________________________________ Don Matteson matteson@acsu.buffalo.edu | "The Ns justify the Dept. of Sociology 442 Park Hall | means." SUNY at Buffalo Buffalo, NY 14260 | --from an ICPSR Voice: 716-645-2417 x442 Fax: 716-645-3934 | t-shirt From mcarley@socionet.socio.com Wed Sep 17 10:56:51 1997 Received: from socio.com (socionet.socio.com [206.0.230.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id KAA03541 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from netpc4 by socio.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06359; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:55:54 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:55:54 -0700 From: mcarley@socionet.socio.com (Michael Carley) Message-Id: <199709171655.JAA06359@socio.com > To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Demographic Transition Model. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Demographic Transition Model fails to take historical context into account. The population changes that took place in Europe were in large part a result of those countries' exploitation of the people, land, and resources of the rest of the world. "Low income countries" do not currently have the political, economic, or military power to repeat this performance. And, given the Structural Adjustment programs currently being imposed on them, this is not likely to change anytime soon. mike > My question is: > > How relevant is the Demographic Transition Model of population growth to > describing population growth in current "3rd World" countries? > > (The Demographic Transition Model describes the change in population > levels > in Europe over the 200+ years following the indstrial revolution as an 'S' > curve from a low, 'stable' population with high birth and death rates, > through a population explosion to a new stable level with low birth and > death rates). *********************************************** Michael Carley Sociometrics Corporation 170 State St. Suite 260 Los Altos CA 94022 (415) 949-3282 ext 208 voice (415) 949-3299 FAX mcarley@socio.com *********************************************** From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Wed Sep 17 12:14:04 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id MAA09451 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:14:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:13:00 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:44:41 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Subject: Religion and Politics -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Alan Davidson that sociologists ought to take religion seriously--it certainly has real consequences. Even sociologists who are secular humanists should recognize this. To put it another way (greatly oversimplified): * Sociologists study what people do * People "do" religion Need I say more? David Katz Loyola University Chicago From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Wed Sep 17 13:21:43 1997 Received: from pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.33]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id NAA11740 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:21:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [130.132.152.134] (cityroom01.renfellows.yale.edu [130.132.152.134]) by pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA28525 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:21:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: danryan@danryan.mail.yale.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:26:48 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: daniel.ryan@yale.edu (DRyan) Subject: that which is sometimes called golden I wonder if there is a good adjective for describing the mood of a cyber-collective that slips into relative silence after an intense burst of intellectual rambunctiousness. Does vociferous cyber controversy have cathartic possibilities, or does that require community built on another basis? Can the period just after a list serve squall, hurricane or monsoon feel just like the calm between acts at a stage performance of "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf"? Or is (physical) co-presence needed for that? Just musin' before heading off to a seminar.... Dan Ryan From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 17 13:26:23 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA11965 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pblau.rutgers.edu (pblau.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.75]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA23697 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:26:21 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970917152616.00898100@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:26:16 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts In-Reply-To: <199709171344.JAA14023@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> References: <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I find it interesting that ONLY Marriage & The Family textbooks are being singled out for a criticism that could be levelled at just about ANY subfield of sociology. Isn't the criticism that the books give disproportionate "epistemological attention" to problems and to "negative aspects" true of sociology texts in almost every substantive area? Some cases in point: Find a Sexuality textbook that spends as much time addressing sexual pleasure as it does unwanted pregnancy, STD/AIDS, and other social problems related to sexuality. Using the logic that focusing more on family problems is anti-family, couldn't one argue that focusing almost exclusively on sexual problems means sexuality texts are anti-sex? Find a Drugs textbook that gives as many chapters to the social benefits of drug-taking as the social pathologies, or that devotes as much time to "non-problematic users" as "habitual addicts.?" Find an urban sociology textbook that spends as much time addressing the social benefits of living in the city than it does on "urban problems" such as poverty, inequality, crime, etc. Couldn't one claim these texts are anti-city in the same way folks are seeing the marriage & family texts as anti-family? Find a race and ethnicity textbook that spends more time talking about racial harmony than racial conflict. Or if the problem is omissions, consider that around 89% of the U.S. population is typically completely ignored as "unraced" in such texts. Why don't race texts focus on the group that gets "unearned racial priviledges" with the same vigor as they do on the groups getting "unearned racial disadvantage?" Find a Deviance text that give "positive deviance" such as artistic genius, intellectualism, and possessing extreme wealth the same "epistemological attention" as forms of deviance such as homicide or skid row behavior. In short, I think these folks criticizing family texts are missing something by not focusing on the bigger picture. I'd offer the following competing explanations for the marriage & family text bias as more plausible than "anti-family" attitudes among the text writers: 1) American sociology has increasingly become a problem-focused discipline and many specialists make their living by addressing specific social problems (and getting funded for it if the problem is "politically important") rather than addressing topics more generically with a general sociology of everyday life approach. Marriage & Family texts, like all specialty texts reflect this problem-oriented focus. All texts are biased towards social problems and away from the "socially unproblematic" aspects of "everyday life." 2) People find "politically salient problems" and "factually unusual" topics more interesting than "the non-problematic" or the "factually mundane." We have texts and classes in the Sociology of Deviance but not the Sociology of Conformity. We have texts and classes on Minority Groups but not Majority Groups. Given that, why should it be surprising that sociology texts in Marriage & Family devote little epistemological attention to such "factually uninteresting" and "politically non-salient" topics as family harmony. To be sure textbooks are providing a distorted view of social reality, but I think by ghettoizing their focus to marriage & family texts these critics are missing the real sources of the bias. This textbook bias is not only political, but epistemological. The bias is rooted in the fact that American sociology has largely developed a problem-oriented focus (in place of a more "generic theoretical perspective") and, thus, as a general rule (to paraphrase what John Gagnon once said in a lecture) "sociologists don't study people having a good time unless they can show how it somehow contributes to misery in the world." The same arguments about including more of the positive aspects of family life in family texts could be made in favor of writing more about the positive aspects of sex in sexuality texts, drugs in drugs texts, and deviance in deviance texts as well. The structure of the field is such that the political bias cuts all ways. Singling out only family texts obscures this broader point. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers >In light of a recent thread that's been on this list, an article in >today's (Sept. 17) NY Times may be of interest. > >Steve > >College Textbooks Dwell on Bad Aspects of Marriage, Study Says > > By TAMAR LEWIN > >College students are being taught a pessimistic and sometimes >inaccurate view of marriage, with great emphasis on issues like >divorce and domestic violence, and little attention to the benefits of >marriage, particularly for child-rearing, according to a new study of >undergraduate textbooks on marriage and family. > >"Both by what they say and sometimes even more importantly, by the >information they omit, these books repeatedly suggest that marriage is >more a problem than a solution," said the report, issued Wednesday by >the Institute for American Values' Council on Families, a nonpartisan >group of family experts. "The potential costs of marriage to adults, >particularly women, often receive exaggerated treatment, while the >benefits of marriage, both to individuals and society, are frequently >downplayed or ignored." > > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Sep 17 15:42:02 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA15994 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id RAA15421; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:40:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:40:47 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Re: Press coverage of article on marriage and family texts (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought some of you might find this reply from the author of "the worst" text interesting. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:45:01 -0400 From: Judy Aulette To: TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu Subject: Re: Press coverage of article on marriage and family texts >I just read the article in the New York Times and it apparently appeared in USNews and World Reports and I also was interviewed by a reporter from the Chronicles of Higher Education last night who was writing an article for the 9/26. The following is a copy of a letter I wrote this morning to the Chronicles reporter in which I defend my book but also most importantly for feminist scholars in general, I try to explain why this attack is so important to us as individuals and to the academy as a place where intellectual debate and the offereing of a broad range of ideas should be protected. > > By the way, Norval Glenn was commissioned by the Institute for Family Values directed by David Blankenhorn to write the original report that was printed in FAmily Relations and now is being used by them in their press release. > > >To Carla Haworth, Chronicles of Higher Education, > > Attached is a copy of the responses to the Norval Glenn book review that I promised to fax you. > After talking to you, I had a few other thoughts I wanted to express. First, I wanted to say something about academic freedom and post tenure review. And second, I wanted to defend my book against what Glenn says specifically about its content. > In our discussion last night, I didn't use the term academic freedom, but after thinking about it I decided it probably was an important word to bring up. I have no objections to Glenn criticizing my work. That is the way scholarly ideas are pushed, altered and often improved. Where I do draw the line, however, is in his arguments that people like me should not be allowed to present our ideas to our students or that we are somehow harming our students by telling them about the ways in which feminists have viewed families. He makes a few specific criticisms of the validity of the feminist theoretical framework, I use which I have addressed below. But his critique is largely a political one. He has different values and a different political view of the world and he does not want students to be exposed to my political values. He is using the academic tradition of intellectual debate to cover up what is obviously a political critique given the fact his "academic review" of the texts was commissioned by an active right-wing political organization, the Institute for American Values. I feel very strongly that universities must be open to debate and that our students be exposed to many kinds of ideas. There is no one correct way for all of us to view the world. > In addition to this general philosophical issue, attacks like Glenn are important because of their possible connection to "post-tenure review." In my state, North Carolina, the legislature has mandated post-tenure review and the university is currently working to develop a system to implement the policy. It is exactly these kinds of political agendas dressed up as intellectual criticism that will be used to attack people in post-tenure reviews (and tenure reviews). > I also wanted to elaborate on the specific criticisms Glenn makes against my book. The first charge he makes is that the book is "purely radical propaganda and political indoctrination". This is based on his (correct) reading of the book that is coming from a feminist theoretical framework. My intention in writing the book was to explore that vast literature that developed on family issues especially since the l970s among researchers who were working within many different schools of thought within a broad feminist framework. Feminism(s) is pretty much accepted in sociology as a legitimate theoretical framework(s) and some of the most well-respected and innovative research and debate is coming from this perspective. To offer a textbook, therefore, that examines this point of view seem reasonable. > The second charge he makes is that I spend too much time (2 pages out of 500) on Engel's theory of the origins of marriage. I chose to explain and critique Engel's work because in the history of the development of Anthropology and sociology over the past century and a half and especially in the development of a feminist approach to family, his book has been a focal point of some important debates about why gender inequality exists today, where it originated from, and what we need to think about if we wish to eliminate it. In addition to being important to scholars, it is also very interesting because it pulls together what might seem to be an unlikely set of issues: gender, marriage, family, social class, technology and the state. Reviewing his arguments helps students to see how important it is to think broadly when we think of family because families are not isolated units but are connected to many other institutions, ideas and relationships. Glenn also argues that I provide an insufficient critique of Engels because I site only radical criticisms (from two types of feminism). To defend this I would return to his initial argument that we shouldn't spend too much time on this one set of ideas. I agree and one of the problems a textbook author has is streamlining these debates without simplifying too much. I chose the two feminist frameworks to critique Engels because they have had the most to say about his work. Other Frameworks, like symbolic interactionism or structural functionalism haven't had much (anything?) To say about Engels because he asks different questions than they do. > The second criticism Glenn makes is of my argument that marriage has not existed in all societies. I already talked to you about this. This criticism has two problems. First, if we define marriage as a legal contract then of course marriage cannot have existed in all societies. But even if we use a much looser definition of marriage, we know that humans must have at some point "invented" the notion of marriage as we think about it today with two people publicly committing themselves to a heterosexual, monogamous, economic, child raising, etc. arrangement. > The third criticism refers to my review of the literature on changes in the incidence of "broken families" in this century. I agree that the sentence he pulled from the text is not clear. But my point in this section is valid, empirically supported and widely accepted. Because adults died at earlier ages early in the century, it was not unusual for children to be orphaned, parents to be left as single heads of households and families to recombine in remarriage into step-families. As the century progressed, divorce began to replace death as a cause of this kind of disruption, but the proportion of people experiencing this kinds of changes in their families actually declined until the l970s when divorce began to outstrip death. But even then the difference between families at the turn of the century and families in the 80s and 90s are quite similar. Undoubtedly the experience of family disruption is different when an ex-spouse or non-custodial parent is still alive compared to when a spouse or parent dies, but it is important not to claim that step-parenting, living with only one parent, remarriage, etc. are signs only of our times. > Thanks for giving me an opportunity to provide my point of view on this. > >Sincerely, >Judy Aulette > > >> > From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Sep 17 17:35:29 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id RAA21843 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:35:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INR8HZXPYO9BWV3E@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:31:06 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INRD7J2JS499DYUP@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA12114 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:04:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:04:41 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Religion and Politics -Reply To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709172304.TAA12114@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I agree with Alan Davidson that sociologists ought to take religion >seriously--it certainly has real consequences. Even sociologists who >are secular humanists should recognize this. >To put it another way (greatly oversimplified): >* Sociologists study what people do >* People "do" religion >Need I say more? Sociologists do take religion seriously. There are two fine journals on the topic. Weber and Durkheim are taught most everywhere. There is a fine cross-national study in the current ASR by Jonathan Kelley, one of the world's eminent sociologists. There is a thriving section in ASA. What's the beef? From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Sep 17 18:05:37 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id SAA22753 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:05:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0609; Wed, 17 Sep 97 20:05:47 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 2059; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:05:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 19:59:38 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Preparing for teaching/Religion and Politics To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970917.200546.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT In order to kill two birds with one stone, here it goes. First, I wasn't implying that all there is to teaching is spewing back forth a textbook to students. True, that is one way, but is not the most desirable way. As for the "if this is the case, then just let's give students books on tape", we are close to having this, it's called distance learning. Second, I am not implying that there aren't sociologists doing research in religion, but to draw upon Darren Sherkat, there is some sort of institutionalized propensity to look suspiciously at folks who do religious research and to hold research which takes religion as a causal factor seriously (i.e, as an independent versus a dependent variable) to greater scrutiny than is the case with more prestigious paradigms and areas of study. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Sep 17 18:19:33 1997 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id SAA23706 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:19:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01INRE8BRJU899DVEK@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:58:52 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01INRDK71J9Q99DYUP@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id TAA17346 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:14:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:14:54 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709172314.TAA17346@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> References: <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >1) American sociology has increasingly become a problem-focused discipline >and many specialists make their living by addressing specific social >problems (and getting funded for it if the problem is "politically >important") rather than addressing topics more generically with a general >sociology of everyday life approach. Marriage & Family texts, like all >specialty texts reflect this problem-oriented focus. All texts are biased >towards social problems and away from the "socially unproblematic" aspects >of "everyday life." I'm not familiar with the M&F textbook scene, but I do know that most studies of poverty or of child development point to divorce and single parenthood as a social problem. It's the same epistemological approach, but it comes out pro-marriage, or at least "not anti-marriage". Consequently, I don't think the described shortcomings of the M&F texts can be blamed on the social problems perspective. From jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu Wed Sep 17 19:18:42 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id TAA26893 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:18:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709180118.TAA26893@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from s01p16.ppp.uconn.edu by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:18:46 EDT From: "Jack B. Monpas-Huber" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:21:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Religion and Politics -Reply Reply-to: jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) I agree with you, Tom. Professionally speaking, there is a strong contingent of sociologists of religion at both secular and religious schools as well as several professional organizations and journals. But, at least on the level of face-to-face interaction, I think Alan does have a very valid point in there being a pattern of secular humanism among sociologists, especially at secular institutions & research universities. Most often, in my personal experience at secular universities, I've seen this manifested as an "opiate of the masses" attitude or animosity toward fundamentalism ala the Religious Right. (Am I right, Alan?) I would submit, however, that looks deceive -- that is, that many sociologists are more religious or reverent of religion than they may let on. For many sociologists religion might be a "backstage" kind of thing, a matter of private belief and practice which may or may not affect their interactions or research, something you wouldn't know about them unless you asked. I suspect that they may take religion seriously as a social force even if they don't study it. I say this in part due to my own experience of doing religious research (the Religious Right) at a secular Research 1 university. I found that, upon easily convincing them that I was a scholar and not an evangelist, they were very keenly interested in what I was finding out. More importantly, I suspect that, like most people, many sociologists have personal issues (either positive or negative) with religion, which might partly explain visceral debates like the most recent one on marriage & family & the Bible. To talk about religion in anything but the most non-normative, detached, empirical terms is, in many cases, to press people's hot buttons. But if you can create a space in which people feel safe exploring their values and ultimate beliefs, you might be surprised who joins in the conversation. Reactions? Jack ----------------------------------------- JACK B. MONPAS-HUBER Doctoral Candidate, Dept. of Sociology University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269-2068 (860) 486-4422 or 486-4073 jam97003@uconnvm.uconn.edu From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Wed Sep 17 19:40:28 1997 Received: from smtp2.utexas.edu (smtp2.utexas.edu [128.83.126.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id TAA27540 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 4693 invoked from network); 18 Sep 1997 01:40:37 -0000 Received: from mail.utexas.edu (128.83.126.1) by smtp2.utexas.edu with SMTP; 18 Sep 1997 01:40:37 -0000 Received: from UT.cc.utexas.edu (slip-124-37.ots.utexas.edu [128.83.221.181]) by mail.utexas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA22575 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:40:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3420865D.1323@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:39:41 -0500 From: Bob Woldman MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts References: <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> <3.0.3.32.19970917152616.00898100@email.rci.rutgers.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wayne brekhus wrote: > In short, I think these folks criticizing family texts are missing > something by not focusing on the bigger picture. I think Norvell critiqued marriage and Family textbooks for a marriage and family journal, because that's what they publish and that's what his expertise is in, and I, for one, think that such a critique is valuable. Best, Bob -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust From allan@sociology.net Wed Sep 17 19:44:34 1997 Received: from sophie.allan.org (sophie.allan.org [208.210.72.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id TAA27745 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:44:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709180144.TAA27745@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from zannie.allan.org [208.210.72.4] by sophie.allan.org [208.210.72.2] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.5.rB.b2.32-T) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:44:14 -0400 From: "allan" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:44:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts Reply-to: allan@sociology.net In-reply-to: <3.0.3.32.19970917152616.00898100@email.rci.rutgers.edu> References: <199709171344.JAA14023@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) X-MDMail-Server: MDaemon v2.5 rB b2 32-T X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Perhaps my view has been altered because I have been weened almost exclusively on American Sociology, but it seems to me, that the point of Sociology is to criticize. Take the big three, Weber had his beauracracy, Durkheim had his suicide, and Marx had oppressed workers (yea yea...I know I'm over simplifying but you get the point). If everything were going along fine in a society there would be no need for Sociologists. Therefore, we tech young Sociologists what we study, namely the problems in Society. A textbook focusing on how wonderful marriage is, is uiseless to us, because we know that marriage is supposed to be this great thing, just ask all the great shows from the 50's. What we don't know is why, if this institution is supposed to be so great, are there so many problems, that's why we need Sociologists. The same can be said for sex, drugs, teenagers, and everything else people spend years and years studying. allan > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:26:16 -0400 > Reply-to: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu > From: wayne brekhus > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts > I find it interesting that ONLY Marriage & The Family textbooks are > being singled out for a criticism that could be levelled at just > about ANY subfield of sociology. Isn't the criticism that the books > give disproportionate "epistemological attention" to problems and to > "negative aspects" true of sociology texts in almost every > substantive area? Some cases in point: > [..snippage..] > > > >In light of a recent thread that's been on this list, an article in > > today's (Sept. 17) NY Times may be of interest. > > > >Steve > > > >College Textbooks Dwell on Bad Aspects of Marriage, Study Says > > > > By TAMAR LEWIN > > > >College students are being taught a pessimistic and sometimes > >inaccurate view of marriage, with great emphasis on issues like > >divorce and domestic violence, and little attention to the benefits > >of marriage, particularly for child-rearing, according to a new > >study of undergraduate textbooks on marriage and family. > > _____________________________________ allan allan@sociology.net http://www.sociology.net/newsgroup From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 17 23:07:47 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id XAA05043 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:07:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pblau.rutgers.edu (pblau.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.75]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA07601 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:07:44 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970918010740.00896a70@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:07:40 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts In-Reply-To: <3420865D.1323@mail.utexas.edu> References: <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> <3.0.3.32.19970917152616.00898100@email.rci.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob, I think you are right about why Norvell Glenn wrote the critique about M & F specifically, and that such a critique may even have value (we might disagree over what the value of the critique is, of course, or why it's valuable--it has stimulated debate about the relationship between textbooks, politics, and the doings of sociology as a field). I also think, however, that what you say is still consistent with my point that ghettoizing such a critique to the Marriage and Family subfield obscures a potentially broader and better explanation for the problem/issue that Glenn highlights. I think Allan's post does a nice job of capturing some of what I was getting at; namely that sociology generically is involved in the business of social criticism and looking at the ways social institutions (including family) don't live up to their ideals. I'm glad you mentioned why Glenn wrote the critique about family texts in particular (namely he was asked to comment in his area of expertise) since this gets at a point I was trying to make specifically about "American sociology", that others have asked about. One of the disadvantages that surrounds a field that has become balkanized into "specialty areas" as American sociology has done, is that we come up with "specialty-specific" explanations where "generic" ones might be better. The press release about Glenn's review paints a very good picture of what it looks like to examine the textbook problem in Marriage & the Family as though Marriage & the Family texts were independent of a larger disciplinary context. Allan Davidson's post (and my previous post) suggests an explanation that cuts across most every specialty area and that recognizes that the disciplinary context, itself, may ensure that textbooks will focus on problems because what we do is critique social institutions and look at things that are "interesting" (and non-problems aren't "empirically interesting"). The key here is that we get two very different explanations (i.e. "deliberate anti-family politics" vs. "sociology focuses on institutional problems and therefore the sociology of the family looks at these problems within the family") depending on whether we gaze at the problem narrowly as one of Marriage & the Family texts or broadly as one of Sociology texts. I'm suggesting that the generic sociology explanation is broader in scope and provides a better explanation for something that has been incorrectly framed by the press release as a "specific" phenomenon within Marriage & Family texts. Of course having specialty-fields or focusing on "narrowly-defined specific problems" has its advantages, but we should consider the analytic costs as well. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my argument some more. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers At 08:39 PM 9/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >wayne brekhus wrote: > >> In short, I think these folks criticizing family texts are missing >> something by not focusing on the bigger picture. > >I think Norvell critiqued marriage and Family textbooks for a marriage >and family journal, because that's what they publish and that's what his >expertise is in, and I, for one, think that such a critique is valuable. > >Best, > >Bob > > >-- >======================================================================== >Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu >Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin >======================================================================== > >"The real magic lies not in seeking new landscapes but in having new >eyes." > > - Marcel Proust > > From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 17 23:33:29 1997 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id XAA06439 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:33:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pblau.rutgers.edu (pblau.rutgers.edu [128.6.145.75]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA10554 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:33:27 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970918013322.007d4cc0@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:33:22 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: oops..correction In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970918010740.00896a70@email.rci.rutgers.edu> References: <3420865D.1323@mail.utexas.edu> <199709171324.JAA13589@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> <3.0.3.32.19970917152616.00898100@email.rci.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, Oops! In my last post I wrongly attributed this to Alan Davidson when it should have been attributed to a different person named Allan. My apologies to both for the error. Wayne brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Allan >Davidson's post (and my previous post) suggests an explanation that cuts >across most every specialty area and that recognizes that the disciplinary >context, itself, may ensure that textbooks will focus on problems because >what we do is critique social institutions and look at things that are >"interesting" (and non-problems aren't "empirically interesting"). > > From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Thu Sep 18 06:39:15 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id GAA14691 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:39:12 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:39:04 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874612265; ~+@^IKH. 24 Aug 97 18:32:32 GMT Date: ~+@^IKH. 24 Aug 97 18:32:32 GMT Message-Id: <9708188746.AA874612265@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: that which is sometimes called golden It is good to have a laugh sometimes, quietly or alone. I'm sure many are musing just like you. Michael Amoah. _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: that which is sometimes called golden Author: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu at :external_mail Date: 17/9/97 8:28 PM I wonder if there is a good adjective for describing the mood of a cyber-collective that slips into relative silence after an intense burst of intellectual rambunctiousness. Does vociferous cyber controversy have cathartic possibilities, or does that require community built on another basis? Can the period just after a list serve squall, hurricane or monsoon feel just like the calm between acts at a stage performance of "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf"? Or is (physical) co-presence needed for that? Just musin' before heading off to a seminar.... Dan Ryan From Chris.Dunn@massey.ac.nz Thu Sep 18 06:51:32 1997 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id GAA15847 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ChrisDunn.massey.ac.nz (actually cc-ra4000-1-22) by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:50:43 +1200 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970921125358.0068a440@mail.massey.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:53:58 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Chris Dunn Subject: A Thank you for contributions on the Demographic Transition Model Thanks folks, for your advice and references on the DMT, especially to Don Matteson. My understanding of the significance of the industrial revolution, colonialism and capitalism to the development and wealth of "High Income" countries and multi-national/global corporations continues and deepens. Much appreciated. Chris. Chris Dunn Chris.Dunn@massey.ac.nz MA student home phone 0064-6-357-6460 Sociology Department fax 0064-6-323-3909 Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand From ppaxton@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Thu Sep 18 07:40:49 1997 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA19032 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:40:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/10.1) id JAA27678; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:40:45 -0400 (GMT+4:00) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:40:45 -0400 From: Pamela Marie Paxton To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts In-Reply-To: <199709180144.TAA27745@csf.Colorado.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Perhaps my view has been altered because I have been weened almost > exclusively on American Sociology, but it seems to me, that the point > of Sociology is to criticize. Take the big three, Weber had his > If everything were going along fine in a society there would be no > need for Sociologists. Therefore, we tech young Sociologists what we > study, namely the problems in Society. I couldn't disagree more with this perspective. As I see it, the purpose of sociology, first and foremost, is to EXPLAIN. Normative critiques can only come later--after we know how something works. Pam Paxton UNC-Chapel Hill From daniel.ryan@yale.edu Thu Sep 18 08:15:06 1997 Received: from pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.32]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA20355 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:15:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [130.132.152.134] (cityroom01.renfellows.yale.edu [130.132.152.134]) by pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA05482 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:15:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: danryan@danryan.mail.yale.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:20:13 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: daniel.ryan@yale.edu (DRyan) Subject: Re: Marriage/Family texts >...seems to me, that the point of Sociology is to criticize. Take the big >three, Weber had his beauracracy, Durkheim had his suicide, and >Marx had oppressed workers I think Pam's right on this. The first task is to understand/explain. >If everything were going along fine in a society there would be no >need for Sociologists.... We might think about Durkheim's chapter "The Normal and the Pathological" here. If everything were going along fine in society, there would still be social problems. _That's_ sociologically interesting. >A textbook focusing on how wonderful marriage is, is uiseless to us, >because we know that marriage is supposed to be this great thing, just >ask all the great shows from the 50's. What we don't know is why, if >this institution is supposed to be so great, are there so many >problems, that's why we need Sociologists. Perhaps Wayne would agree that the point is not that one shouldn't study the problematic, but that one should also study the "non-problematic" *empirically* rather than taking the "idealization" as the comparison case. This is, of course, a "methodological" spin on the question. It seems to me that his post was also making a "political" point that by focusing on one side of "normal/pathological" distinctions, we help to re-inforce socio-cultural meanings of the distinction itself. Dan Ryan From M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Thu Sep 18 08:52:56 1997 Received: from res.lse.ac.uk (res.lse.ac.uk [158.143.96.63]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id IAA21871 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:52:52 -0600 (MDT) From: M.AMOAH@lse.ac.uk Received: from smtplink.lse.ac.uk by res.lse.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:52:22 +0100 Received: from ccMail by smtplink.lse.ac.uk (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) id AA874620219; ~+@^IKH. 24 Aug 97 20:45:03 GMT Date: ~+@^IKH. 24 Aug 97 20:45:03 GMT Message-Id: <9708188746.AA874620219@smtplink.lse.ac.uk> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Religion and Politics -Reply Has anybody ever thought of the fear of researching into some religious phenomena? I mean the 'conversion scare' - the possibility of being converted into something you don't want, however sociologically interesting that might be? Michael Amoah From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Sep 18 09:01:46 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id JAA22723 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3757; Thu, 18 Sep 97 11:01:50 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 7755; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:01:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:57:14 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Religion and Politics/Marriage and Family To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970918.110149.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT There are texts on social problems which seek to debunk the notion of something being a social problem -- look at Erich Goode's Drugs in American Society as an example of one such text -- some of the social construction of social problems texts do so as well. As for the fear of conversion issue, we do worry a great deal about it -- no one is fearful that by studying nuclear families someone will become heterosexual, though. There does come a point where an undue focus on social problems can get in the way of understanding what a particular phenomena is about -- focusing on problems of intermarriage versus understanding Jewish Identity in the first place is a good example. From bjohnson@sobek.Colorado.EDU Thu Sep 18 14:35:17 1997 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id OAA07114 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:35:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from bjohnson@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id OAA05277; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:35:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:35:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Johnson Brett Edward To: sociology grad students Subject: Re: Demographic Transition Model. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970920111726.00681270@mail.massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Chris, When I teach about population I teach: (1) the exponential growth model (which is assumed will go until infinity or until mass starvation), and (2) the demographic transitional model (which assumes that there is a "natural" mechanism of population dynamics that will stop growth before starvation). I feel that they are both important to understand. This is where it gets tricky. You ask a great question about the applicability of the demographic transition model to "developing" countries. One of the causal factors that leads to lower births rates are increases in the standard of living (along with many other things such as status of women). Once parents start putting their children into cost-benefit situations such as "if we have another child, we won't be able to go to Hawaii next year", they begin to have less children. The main ways that the U.S. has raised its standard of living ($$) is by exploiting human labor in our country (slavery) and by exploiting poorer nations by paying bottom dollar for natural resources and cheap labor. Periphery nations today don't have many options left for exploitation (there isn't another Africa for Africa to exploit). In my opinion this is the main reason why core countries (e.g. U.S., Western Europe) haven't had to use punishment techniques (e.g. tax disincentives) to lower their population growth rates. Periphery countries will have to use techniques such as the "one-child" policy in China, or tax breaks for childless families to bring down their growth because they won't have the abundant means to affluence that the core countries had (and still have). There are also many women and men around the world who want to limit the size of the their families but don't have access to affordable birth control. This is why I support family planning monies (and that includes abortion services) to periphery countries to give women and men the tools to limit their families. Sterilization (i.e. tubaligations, vasectomies) is the most common form of birth control in the world. Men often fight the idea of vasectomies though in countries where women do not have equal rights. These are some of my thoughts on your question and the topic of population control. brett johnson univ. of colorado On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Chris Dunn wrote: > > How relevant is the Demographic Transition Model of population growth to > describing population growth in current "3rd World" countries? From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Sep 18 15:04:41 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA09774 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7807; Thu, 18 Sep 97 17:04:37 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 7789; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:04:38 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 17:04:14 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Right-wing attacks (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970918.170437.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Another tidbit from the teaching sociology list -- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu From: James Williams Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Right-wing attacks Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:33:47 -0500 Although I favored a "wait and see" approach to the report criticizing Marriage and Family textbooks, I now think that this issue might escalate into a full-fledged attack on Sociology. Especially disturbing was the John Leo column that has wide distribution in many newspapers. After claiming to have "read" eight of the textbooks, he selects certain findings and distorts them to make his point that academic sociologists are "out of touch" with the real world. I hope I am wrong, but I fear that this might extend to other controversial subject areas as well. How long will it be before some reporter or right-wing group decides to go after texts in Race and Ethnic Relations for their stance on affirmative action, or Social Stratification texts for their treatment of capitalism, or Sociology of Religion texts for their discussions of Christianity, or Criminology texts for views on capital punishment? The only thing that might keep this from coming to pass is that Sociology generally may not be seen as important enough to attack. Writers of Marriage and Family texts can at least be assured that they are being taken seriously, or otherwise this incident would never have arisen. Whatever happens, we must not remain passive in the face of attacks on any part of our discipline. Feminist theories and perspectives should be defended as legitimate and valuable scholarship. Jim From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Sep 18 15:17:40 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id PAA10278 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:17:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7911; Thu, 18 Sep 97 17:17:45 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9755; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:17:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 17:16:23 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: John Leo's summary of N. Glenn (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970918.171745.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT By the way, wasn't it those "left-wing ideologues" Parsons and Smelser who first talked about the link between industrialization and family change back in 1956? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:27:14 -0500 To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu From: Tom Gerschick Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: John Leo's summary of N. Glenn Kim Schopmeyer wrote: "I haven't read the John Leo column (if there's any way that it can be distributed on this listserve, like the NY Times piece was, that would be useful)," The Leo article is available on-line at: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/970922/22john.htm I have also copied it below. The U.S. News and World Report homepage does have a link to its "forum" where you can leave your thoughts about this particular piece. Tom ON SOCIETY BY JOHN LEO: Marriage bashing a la mode One of the problems in trying to shore up the institution of marriage is that so many of the professionals who teach and write about it--counselors, therapists, academics, and popular authors--really don't support marriage at all. Some depict it as archaic and inherently oppressive. Others give it tepid support as just one of many acceptable adult arrangements. Another study showing this trend will be released this week: "Closed Hearts, Closed Minds," a report from the Council on Families, under the auspices of the Institute for American Values. The study analyzes 20 textbooks used to teach about marriage and family in 8,000 college courses around the country. The report concludes that these books are "a national embarrassment," offering "a determinedly bleak view of marriage" as "more of a problem than a solution." Norval Glenn, author of the report and the council's research director, writes that in these books, "Marriage as a lifelong child-rearing bond holds special dangers, particularly for women, who if they don't find marriage physically threatening, will very likely find it psychologically stifling." Glenn finds the books riddled with glaring errors, omissions of data, and distortions of research. Last week I read eight of these books and concluded that Glenn is right. The books generally portray families as loose collections of rights-bearing individuals. One book complains that the traditional view of family "collapses the interests of all family members into one whole." Marriage is depicted more as a convenience than as a commitment. As a result, children appear in the books as almost incidental to marriage, and authors expend great energy to show that they don't need two parents and aren't really harmed by divorce. _Families and Intimate Relationships_, by Gloria Bird and Keith Melville, strongly argues that most problems showing up in children of divorce actually precede the marital breakups. Only one of the eight books focuses on the enormous accumulation of evidence that children in single-parent homes are far more at risk than children in two-parent homes. Most treat the single-parent home as an inescapable fact and glide swiftly past the findings of high risk. Parent trap?:The effect of children on parents is handled oddly too. In the opening pages of _Marriage and Family: The Quest for Intimacy_, Robert H. Lauer and Jeanette C. Lauer casually mention that children "clearly do not always increase satisfaction." They say "most studies show that marital satisfaction decreases" during child-rearing years, although (here comes their good news) "parents may find their marital satisfaction increasing again" after the children grow up and leave home. Later, however, they say 130 studies show that "the tendency for married people to be happier and healthier is long-standing." They also cite a Gallup Poll showing that 95 percent of Americans say family life is very important to them, compared with 61 percent who say that about work and 48 percent who say it about religion. But in all 20 books surveyed, Glenn found that this positive news is muffled or omitted. He writes that "almost half of the meager space devoted to marriage effects is taken up with discussions of how marriage hurts women." The worst of the books, Judy Root Aulette's _Changing Families_, is a feminist analysis mostly devoted to the question of whether Marxists or radical feminists are more nearly correct about marriage as an inherently oppressive institution. At one point, she suggests that the wife alone, not the husband and wife together, should make decisions on childbearing. Any wife who listens to Aulette will probably want to stay childless anyway, since she, too, tells us that "research shows that children may have a detrimental effect on parents' mental health." Aulette approvingly cites Marx's intellectual ally, Friedrich Engels, arguing that marriage was "created for a particular purpose: to control women and children." In these books, what many of us see as the gradual collapse of the family is just an adjustment to social and technological change. In many passages, this collapse is portrayed as an achievement: The two-parent family isn't especially good for children, but luckily it is fast disappearing. That view has been in retreat for a decade now, as evidence has piled up that family form matters. James Q. Wilson writes in Commentary that when the American people "look at the dramatic increase in divorce, single-parent families, and illegitimate children that has taken place over the last 30 years, they see families in decline. They do not need studies to tell them that these outcomes are generally bad." But the message hasn't gotten through to the determined and tiny minority that Wilson calls "the high culture," Mary Ann Glendon calls "the knowledge class," and most of the rest of us call "the cultural elite." They are still tossing out the old Ozzie and Harriet taunts and grinding out the same ideological tracts. The battle for public opinion may be over, but the losers are still writing the textbooks. From dkatz@wpo.it.luc.edu Thu Sep 18 23:28:37 1997 Received: from wpo.it.luc.edu (wpo.it.luc.edu [147.126.102.24]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id XAA01874 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:28:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LUCHICAGO-Message_Server by wpo.it.luc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:28:38 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:27:16 -0500 From: David Katz To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: What, me worry? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline If you look at the literature on New Religious Movements (NRMs), such as Beckford's *Cult Controversies,* you'll find that most of the talk about coercion and so-called "brainwashing" among NRMs comes from their opponents--those whose interests are threatened by the existence of such groups. Psychotherapists and other "de-programmers" are also active in promoting the brainwashing scare, since they stand to profit from it (and frequently do). Though there may be exceptions, I doubt that a sociologist studying NRMs has anything to worry about. David Katz Loyola University Chicago From eschaefe@bach.helios.nd.edu Fri Sep 19 07:28:36 1997 Received: from bach.helios.nd.edu (bach.helios.nd.edu [129.74.216.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with ESMTP id HAA15572 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:28:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (eschaefe@localhost) by bach.helios.nd.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18437 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:28:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:28:33 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Schaefer Caniglia To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Free ASA Section Membership! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Socgrad colleagues, The Environment and Technology Section of ASA will be ending its annual membership drive at the end of this month. If you are interested in receiving one year's membership free, please let me know by the end of next week. If you join us, you will receive our newsletter four times a year, which will keep you up-to-date on new publications and topics of interest. This is a useful newsletter, too! Not one of those boring, alienating newsletters that serves to inform committee members of their next meeting date. This newsletter contains articles and book reviews, written by section members; up-dates on new journals of interest; and member publications and announcements. So, even if you're just interested in learning what environment and technology sociologists are up to, this newsletter will be useful for you. E & T will pay first-time membership dues for graduate students. The only catch is that you must be a member of the American Sociological Association (ASA). If you would like to join us, please fill out the following form and mail it to ASA at the address listed. Also, send me an e-mail, and I will be sure your membership is confirmed at no charge. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Beth Schaefer Caniglia Department of Sociology University of Notre Dame Notre Dame, IN 46556 eschaefe@bach.helios.nd.edu ************************************************************************** MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION FOR ENVIRONMENT & TECHNOLOGY SECTION TO: The American Sociological Association 1722 N Street, NW Washington, DC 20036 FROM: Name ___________________________________ Address ________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________________________________ ________________________________________ State/Country __________________________ Postal Code ____________________________ Telephone ______________________________ E-Mail _________________________________ ___ I want to join the Environment and Technology Section. Enclosed is a check made payable to the *American Sociological Association* for section dues. ___ $12.00 for Members ___ $ 5.00 for Student Members ************************************************************************** From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Sep 19 07:38:04 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id HAA15807 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:38:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id JAA01807; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:36:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:36:50 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: CFP: Manuscripts for _Research in Urban Sociology_ (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:14:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Hutchison To: C&U Section Members Cc: Ray Hutchison Subject: Manuscripts for _Research in Urban Sociology_ Call for Papers: Volumes Five and Six, Research in Urban Sociology The purpose of these volumes is to present original scholarship reflecting the diverse areas of study and the diverse theoretical perspectives found within urban sociology. I am now beginning to prepare material for volumes five and six of this series; I expect very quick turn around time fromr the publisher once manuscripts have been submitted as we move to bring this series to an annual publication schedule. The topical area for the next two volumes is open, and will be determined in large measure by the papers that I receive. If you have a paper that was presented at the recent ASA sessions, or have been completing work on other researchs, please contact me about publication possibilities. I am especially interested in working with manuscripts which because of topical area, length of discussion, use of photographs and other materials, and the like, may not be considered by mainstream sociology/urban studies journals. Please send a description of your work, or a copy of the abstract of your paper, via E-mail or by FAX. ______________________________________________________________________ Ray Hutchison Professor and Chair Urban and Regional Studies University of Wisconsin-Green Bay 2420 Nicolet Drive Green Bay, Wisconsin 54311-7001 ______________________________________________________________________ Office: (414) 465-2355 Fax: (414) 465-2791 Home: (414) 465-8346 E-Mail: HUTCHR@UWGB.EDU From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Sep 19 10:10:28 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id KAA22109 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:10:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id MAA03445; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:09:14 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:09:14 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: RE: part time faculty (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nice to hear ASA is finally considering this topic. I do wonder whether it will consider issues involving use of graduate students as instructors. (Feel free to jump in anytime Ms. Howery) Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:07:49 -0400 From: Carla Howery To: Teaching Sociology List , "TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu" Subject: RE: part time faculty This thread couldn't be more timely for me. Next weekend, in DC, is a small invitational conference on part-time/adjunct teaching. The sponsoring groups are associations who felt we needed to talk together about the issues, in order to propose some guidelines and solutions that might have some punch (as opposed to ASA just having its own statement). the sociologists attending are: Toby Parcel, Robert Hampton, Nancy Sacks, Caroline Persell, Phyllis Raabe, Carla Howery, and Roberta Spalter-Roth. Papers were commissioned (not from the list above, but from others) for the conference and at least 2 of them have useful data (others have useful ideas!) I will write up the meeting for FOOTNOTES, but, of course, the more important action will take place over the next several months. People can e-mail me privately if they have special interest (howery@asanet.org). For now, I suggest you get the official statements of NEA and AAUP, as well as ASA on use of PT faculty. And, at the 1998 chair conference, we plan to have a session on this topic. I welcome your expertise and advice. As Donna notes, assuming PT faculty have access to e-mail, then e-mail has been a democratizing device for all faculty. Carla Howery, ASA ---------- From: Peter Lehman Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 7:45 PM To: Teaching Sociology List Subject: part time faculty >Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:41:58 -0600 (MDT) >From: eleanor a hubbard >To: alexsue@lyco.lycoming.edu, cattat@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU, giuffrep@GVSU.EDU, > JWITTNE@wpo.it.luc.edu, PETER@PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU, > TMARTINEZ@bmcc.cc.or.edu, wylieml@jmu.edu > >I have been on this list for a couple of years now and haven't seen any >discussion of teaching in a non-tenured postition. It seems to me there >are several issues; one is the temporary full-time postition which has >been mentioned a few times in terms of relationships with full-time >faculty. My position, however, is that I teach classes on a contract >basis. Since I am not looking for a tenured position, but do provide a >very important service (although practically unpaid) to the university it >would seem logical to me that I should be included in the department in >some way. This is definitely not true for sociology (i have a box where i >can receive mail) and somewhat true for women's students (who invite me to >parties sometimes). Is anyone else in the same position? The issues for >me are how to continue to remain on staff (that is the hustling I have to >do >to remind those hiring that I am still available and don't always want to >teach the same classes) and to receive the resources I need to teach >well, and how to maintain communications with faculty. >I am sure there are many other issues and I would like to hear what others >are thinking either privately at my address hubbarde@stripe.colorado.edu >or on the list if it seems appropriate. >BTW, I consistently receive good teaching evaluations in the A- range but >I have *never* had any faculty or administrator comment on that and I have >been teaching in this mode for almost 4 years now. > >********************************* >Eleanor A. Hubbard >Socy/Wmst Professor >University of Colorado @Boulder > >Nature forms patterns! >Some are orderly in space, but disorderly in time. >Othersare orderly in time, but disorderly in space. >James Gleich on Chaos Theory >******************************** > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Peter Lehman PO Box 9300 Associate Professor Portland, Maine 04104 Department of Sociology (207)780-4758 University of Southern Maine Fax: (207)780-5698 peter@usm.maine.edu begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(BT.`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0F `0`A````,SE%,3%& M-T1$03,P1#$Q,4(W.$(P,#8P.3+`&"7 MF"MV```#``80E1WWC0,`!Q"K"P``'@`($ $```!E````5$A)4U1(4D5!1$-/ M54Q$3E1"14U/4D5424U%3%E&3U)-14Y%6%17145+14Y$+$E.1$,L25-!4TU! M3$Q)3E9)5$%424].04Q#3TY&15)%3D-%3TY005)4+51)344O041*54Y#5 `` M```#`! 0``````,`$1 ``````@$)$ $```"7"@``DPH``'P2``!,6D9UYU1_ M%_\`"@$/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K 2 "$ 7 J0> M+B 'L7@%0'<)X")K"?!D+" +@"!$1D,><00@82!S`,!L\P,@"X!V:0&0'+ " M( = V1N1;F8$D GP8QQ `B!2( JQ="T(@;@G@#;!-&X!T)< !D&QK)L%G_Q(`(T %P &@"& B82-!! &]"E!S'G,% ML 2!)L)P`V ?(X 1\!] `W <0&=U:?T-L&P+@ >1`' ;@".P"D"/)40;," ` M'%!I9V@%0!41P'8J)7 B,6@@*!LDT"$@<"GR)K-!4T%Z("(@>1YP M*T(TQ!\P4PJP)@"]!) M" `;,!V!-$!P-S'W'?$<@06@;2QP!! @(2:A_"AN M.M =$ -A*#,W\05 ]R?A+/ ><&(H$3T3.M$W,;XI'1,H0B")*T(L06P;8/,O M(1(@;V8H,CU +-,O$+,-P!O (&0@`!\P*#[TIT(+*K$DT"$I,1Q)'?"[`Q # M('<%$"* 0E!P*#,/!X 2`"/B'2)&3T]4\DY'T$53/D,><$&1&Z'_$>$><$:S M''('<". .@$",/\?(")0("%%Q &0'C A4 M@_R$"+/ QU"9@'=$1\$P1(%'3 M!& ",&AS.P)E*>!!$/,;D .192T`P ,1+4(%$/YV,&$<\0:0*#(=`"S4.U#? M)1$?DCJ!!Y %0"@EL#DBKD DT !P$@`N!;!G,-#M,1Q&!;$\T'<><$6P**#V M9R=P+R%Y"& D$!(`*#-Y09!F:5#C,$$NPB$Q0F%!@E!.5!T0`- ;P'1Y4OU!AQY2+$$H0C$Y.3@;D/T1P&D%P""( M'G F,0M1`Z#_)M$LTQ\Q!Y \4B$B&S ;`O\IX%8`4OU%L1S@._$<0%41OP7 M'< [41RP*A% HV0?T.LA`!V!000@1 (@($!4$?B/B#;!BPAT3'W)9 MYC$-'SBL+L$Q' KT*N Q.##!`M%I+3$T- WP#-#S;H,+63$V"J #8"* (E&^ M+7"G"H=O6PPP<"9&`V$_,]!O/W!$#((W$3J!($S\96@#@7%/7PBE08`,D4=`$PRL>-\CW<^=6)J<&%^KW2;GR%B'*-9UFRO;;,S-F\GYQ0B M# %P)CY$,&$ST7I03WNA7#!ZX7NT,#9\(#%T.C5<,"V+T&X@+1M@.W%4(2LS+-(;\A'P]6@";H=&/C-0!/ O$%[$[T&A@)8>D6.B M;B&@"? (<%\FH2GQ'+ @$AV!2:+3;?=F$RIA)Y)EC18DDDSF*(3^.R$A*&(H M,S!Q2A$*P!T!_1O ;"&CIF@ED58`+;!GH?^-%F?C,)(\9!\P(+ 'X!RR_P0@ M'I$Z@:>109$6``M@)4/_&O D80/P&S"K>(T6:B<%T/\=`"GQIK,><%'23!$> MXRPC_T6P(H,;D M@!! 'D2$QH-)_`C!-(")0K5
\S!!_PW0+< L(ZIU>E O("KA M) #_GP7/V)" C1;6] N )K$EL/\J$1KP(].TM;A1II%8E]!;KCSR\ GDT](\RQ"[\%D9%%Q M0X&//15S_Y!RG=D%L5\3/85/X1_@IU4?.T IP@C2K[)F!,$2HL MP4#!ZD%D]FFR_F1D<3*Q:*$%L3ORQ6)?$_\L0>M$+-*M6Z3:7T,$8FF5NP1@ M+R$TH8CH5XT6*@1/JP5-C19%C@5!'8!(CJ1CC1:!$7DO5Z>0=/!0[Q% )> D MX=3W5< 85Q&0)O@@0$(;LNU0G@XUP,Y@7QR!'2&GD8(@,Q%R]H A_P?XU84I M,T^R,"&"(%TRNL/O/# /B1RRZ%=//P,/31RRMQ"/$ ;H5TK3,1\01T$0^ZSB M(3%#K2#;\",BH*"C9\\%3P5OGBR!]2T]&_\=#W\>'QYA@?5U:I:6EI9U%$_F M( N@RD Y,VX@6M8DY;\W`0DF(1U*(5VQ6V%-B1'=3' PC `F(('U1,4(5Q&+ M@1@A22B)H#`````````-RG0,C 0A :M+D(`"LOX8(!`````````"X` M```>`/H_`0```!4```!3>7-T96T@061M:6YIB/@S%O $#``TT_3\```(!%#0!````$ ```%24H< I?Q ; MI8<(`"LJ)1<>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````L`*0``````"P`C```````" M`7\``0```$P````\8SU54R5A/5\E<#U#;VUP=71E; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCC4F7.8A7A0530@enterprise.csi1.com>; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:28:31 -0400 Message-ID: From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: part time faculty (fwd) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:41:32 -0400 There is definitely a need to think about grad students in several ways: 1 - adequate and scholarly preparation to teach 2 - working conditions, etc. while a TA 3 - difficulties of finishing grad school while working as an instructor (could also be true working at McDonalds) esp with 2-3 campuses 4 - (most important to me) the attractiveness of the profession to grad students who see many new PhDs in "non regular" (the term for this whole nest of possibilities, incl FT non-tenure, temp) positions for long periods of time, spending their early career time looking for the next "non regular" position. Carla Howery, ASA >---------- >From: James Cassell >Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 12:09 PM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: RE: part time faculty (fwd) > >Nice to hear ASA is finally considering this topic. I do wonder whether > >it will consider issues involving use of graduate students as >instructors. (Feel free to jump in anytime Ms. Howery) > >Jim >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~ >James Cassell Institute for Research in Social >Science >e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North >Carolina >Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC >27599-3355 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~~ > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:07:49 -0400 >From: Carla Howery >To: Teaching Sociology List , > "TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu" >Subject: RE: part time faculty > >This thread couldn't be more timely for me. Next weekend, in DC, is a >small >invitational conference on part-time/adjunct teaching. The sponsoring >groups are associations who felt we needed to talk together about the >issues, in order to propose some guidelines and solutions that might >have >some punch (as opposed to ASA just having its own statement). > >the sociologists attending are: Toby Parcel, Robert Hampton, Nancy >Sacks, >Caroline Persell, Phyllis Raabe, Carla Howery, and Roberta >Spalter-Roth. > Papers were commissioned (not from the list above, but from others) >for the >conference and at least 2 of them have useful data (others have useful >ideas!) > >I will write up the meeting for FOOTNOTES, but, of course, the more >important action will take place over the next several months. People >can >e-mail me privately if they have special interest (howery@asanet.org). > >For now, I suggest you get the official statements of NEA and AAUP, as >well >as ASA on use of PT faculty. > >And, at the 1998 chair conference, we plan to have a session on this >topic. > >I welcome your expertise and advice. As Donna notes, assuming PT >faculty >have access to e-mail, then e-mail has been a democratizing device for >all >faculty. > >Carla Howery, ASA > >---------- >From: Peter Lehman >Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 7:45 PM >To: Teaching Sociology List >Subject: part time faculty > >>Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:41:58 -0600 (MDT) >>From: eleanor a hubbard >>To: alexsue@lyco.lycoming.edu, cattat@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU, giuffrep@GVSU.EDU, >> JWITTNE@wpo.it.luc.edu, PETER@PORTLAND.CAPS.MAINE.EDU, >> TMARTINEZ@bmcc.cc.or.edu, wylieml@jmu.edu >> >>I have been on this list for a couple of years now and haven't seen any >>discussion of teaching in a non-tenured postition. It seems to me there >>are several issues; one is the temporary full-time postition which has >>been mentioned a few times in terms of relationships with full-time >>faculty. My position, however, is that I teach classes on a contract >>basis. Since I am not looking for a tenured position, but do provide a >>very important service (although practically unpaid) to the university it >>would seem logical to me that I should be included in the department in >>some way. This is definitely not true for sociology (i have a box where i >>can receive mail) and somewhat true for women's students (who invite me to >>parties sometimes). Is anyone else in the same position? The issues for >>me are how to continue to remain on staff (that is the hustling I have to >>do >>to remind those hiring that I am still available and don't always want to >>teach the same classes) and to receive the resources I need to teach >>well, and how to maintain communications with faculty. >>I am sure there are many other issues and I would like to hear what others >>are thinking either privately at my address hubbarde@stripe.colorado.edu >>or on the list if it seems appropriate. >>BTW, I consistently receive good teaching evaluations in the A- range but >>I have *never* had any faculty or administrator comment on that and I have >>been teaching in this mode for almost 4 years now. >> >>********************************* >>Eleanor A. Hubbard >>Socy/Wmst Professor >>University of Colorado @Boulder >> >>Nature forms patterns! >>Some are orderly in space, but disorderly in time. >>Othersare orderly in time, but disorderly in space. >>James Gleich on Chaos Theory >>******************************** >> >> >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Peter Lehman PO Box 9300 >Associate Professor Portland, Maine 04104 >Department of Sociology (207)780-4758 >University of Southern Maine Fax: (207)780-5698 > peter@usm.mai<>ne.edu > > > > > > From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Sep 19 13:35:11 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.7.6/8.7.3/CNS-4.0p) with SMTP id NAA29116 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:35:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4895; Fri, 19 Sep 97 15:35:04 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0727; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:35:05 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 15:28:22 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Part-time faculty To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970919.153504.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Actually, this semester I began teaching (I switched myself) at a branch campus of the University of Connecticut. One thing I do notice that is relatively scary is you meet adjuncts, and they volunteer that they have been teaching there for about 10 years -- 6 courses per year, $3K a course (and these are probably the lucky folks). It reminds me of the scene in Tally's corner where Liebow laments about all the 20-25 year olds have to do to see their future is look at the 40 year olds. It is almost as if in addition to the classic scenario jobs of tenure-track and limited term non-tenure track (1-3 years, similar pay as a junior prof.), you have regular adjunct (who, except for salary are more or less faculty) and then an adjunct adjunct. From glenn@sobek.Colorado.EDU Sat Sep 20 13:22:50 1997 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA19713 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:22:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from glenn@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id NAA05417; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:22:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:22:47 -0600 (MDT) From: "Glenn W. Muschert" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Two positions in sociology at Auckland (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those down-under, as well at those "up-over". Glenn ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:22:36 -0400 From: Ravi Arvind Palat To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Subject: Two positions in sociology at Auckland The University of Auckland New Zealand TWO LECTURESHIPS IN SOCIOLOGY (Sociological Research Methodologies - Social Theory) Department of Sociology (Vacancy UAC.894) Conditions of Appointment The Appointments 1. These positions are tenurable, and at Lecturer level (equivalent to North American Assistant Professorships). Qualifications 2. Applications are invited from well-qualified candidates (with a doctorate or equivalent) for two tenurable Lectureships in Sociology. The successful candidate for one post will teach sociological research methodologies to undergraduate and postgraduate students. For the second post we seek someone with strong teaching interests in social theory. Applicants are asked to indicate which research and teaching area(s) interest them, beyond those indicated. Responsibilities 3. The persons appointed will be responsible to the Vice-Chancellor through the Head of Department of Sociology and the Dean of the Faculty of Arts for such duties, including teaching, examining and research, as may be required by the Head of the Department. The successful applicants will be expected to contribute to teaching at undergraduate and graduate levels and undertake research. Salarv 4. Commencing salary will be determined in accordance with qualifications and experience within the scales for Lecturers. The present salary scale for a Lecturer is $NZ44,250 per annum rising to $NZ53,250 per annum by six annual increments. In normal circumstances a Lecturer whose services have proved satisfactory may apply for promotion to be given the status of a Senior Lecturer, salary maximum $NZ65,250, though this may be increased to $NZ71,250 at the University's discretion. Date for Taking up Duties 5. Those appointed will be expected to take up duties on a date to be arranged as soon as possible. General Conditions 6. The appointee will also be subject to the provisions of The University of Auckland Academic Staff Collective Employment Contract, a summary of which is given in the statement attached Closing Date for Applications 7. Applications in accordance with the Method of Application and quoting Vacancy UAC.894 should be forwarded as soon as possible, but not later than 10 November l997. Further information about this position may be obtained from the Head of the Department of Sociology, Professor Ian Carter, Telephone 64-9-373 7599 Extn 8615, Fax 64-9-373 7439; Email: i.carter@auckland.ac.nz The University has an EEO policy and welcomes applicants from all qualified persons W B NICOLL REGISTRAR The University of Auckland Private Bag 92019 Auckland NEW ZEALAND From allan@sociology.net Sat Sep 20 21:25:47 1997 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAB27074 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:25:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zannie.allan.org by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: zannie.allan.org [208.210.72.4]) id QQdhxd14031; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: "allan" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:25:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: rfd: sci.sociology.general Reply-to: allan@sociology.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) For those of you who use Usenet, the following has been proposed. Followup discussion will take place in news.groups, please show your support, and, more importantly, when it comes time, please vote!! Thanks!! allan From: Allan Liska allan@sociology.net Subject: RFD: sci.sociology.general From: Allan Liska allan@sociology.net Subject: RFD: sci.sociology.general Newsgroups: news.announce.newsgroups,news.groups,alt.sci.sociology,alt.philosophy alt.sci.psychology,sci.anthropology,sci.econ REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD) moderated newsgroup sci.sociology.general This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide moderated Usenet newsgroup sci.sociology.general. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: sci.sociology.general For the discussion of all aspects of Sociology. RATIONALE:sci.sociology.general Why is there a need for sci.sociology.general? There is a good deal of discussion about Sociology on the Internet. Deja News shows that the term Sociology used 3336 times in the last 6 weeks. In addition, there are two major Sociology mailing lists: 1.Progressive Sociologists Network 2.Soc Grad Each of these mailing lists has more than 500 hundred members and boasts more than 50 messages a day, during the school year. In addition, there are about 20 more smaller mailing lists. So, there are people talking about Sociology, they are just looking for a home. Currently the only newsgroup specifically set up for the discussion of Sociology is alt.sci.sociology. This group, unfortunately, suffers from bad propagation, as most small colleges (and even some large) don't carry any alt groups. In addition it has become so overrun with hate speech and spam in the last six months that many of the regular posters have been forced to turn elsewhere for their discussions. END RATIONALE CHARTER:sci.sociology.general Sociology is, simply put, the study of society. It is done on an informal level every day, and has been going on since the beginning of society. As a more formalized academic science it has been around since the early 1800's and many college campuses today have a Sociology Department. Sci.sociology.general is a newsgroup set up for the purpose of discussing Sociology. Sociological thought and ideas, as well as the profession of Sociology itself, Demography, statistics, and current issues in Sociology. Sci.sociology.general is not intended as a homework helper we may offer some suggested readings, but but we're not going to do your homework for you. Also unwelcome would be posts that are hateful, posts filled with political posturing without Sociological theory, data or references to substantiate the ideas, flames, messages cross-posted to hate or white supremacy newsgroups, make-money-fast, SPAM, binaries, and "for sale" postings. Moderation Policy: This group will be loosely moderated. The main reason for moderation will be to screen out blatant violations of the charter. Any post rejected will, with the exception of SPAM or anonymous postings, be returned to the sender with an explanation or a suggestion for a more appropriate newsgroup. The moderator(s) will be asked to error on the side of leniency when deciding to reject posts. Approval can take anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours, depending on whether we are on-line or not. Please be patient. In general users should follow the guidelines posted by Mark Moraes in news.announce.newusers under the subject: Rules for posting to Usenet (this document can also be found on the web at: http://www.netannounce.org/news.announce.newusers/) The reason that we have a moderated group is to keep this group focused and to filter out the stuff that drive most people out of other groups. Since moderation is not in place to censure ideas, or limit debate every effort will be made to automate the moderation process, thus keeping the flow of ideas continuous. Moderators will be selected/removed through consensus of the newsgroup. Unless it is found necessary at a later date there will not be a formal process for selecting group moderators. END CHARTER MODERATOR INFO:sci.sociology.general Moderator: Allan Liska allan@sociology.net Backup Moderator: Donald Libby dlibby@facstaff.wisc.edu Moderator Address: moderators@sociology.net END MODERATOR INFO. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,sci.anthropology,sci.econ alt.sci.sociology, alt.philosophy, alt.sci.psychology and the following mailing lists: PSN (psn@csf.colorado.edu) The Progressive sociologists Network SOCGRAD (socgrad@csf.colorado.edu) The Sociology Grad Student mailing list. Subscribe via: listproc@csf.colorado.edu Proponent: Allan Liska allan@sociology.net _____________________________________ allan allan@sociology.net http://www.sociology.net/newsgroup From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Sep 21 17:55:11 1997 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id RAA29182 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:55:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0801; Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:54:50 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 7669; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:54:50 -0400 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:54:29 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: religion in the academy (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <970921.195450.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:27:50 -0500 Reply-To: UCSB Religious Studies Forum Sender: UCSB Religious Studies Forum From: Russell McCutcheon Subject: religion in the academy To: ANDERE-L@UCSBVM.UCSB.EDU By the way, anyone interested in the debate on religion in the academy etc. (e.g., George Marsden's issue in his two recent books), should see the new Chronicle of Higher Ed, "A Welcome Revival of Religion in the Academy," by Alan Wolfe, Sept 19, 1997, pp. B4-B5. _________________________ From allan@sociology.net Mon Sep 22 22:11:22 1997 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA22682; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:11:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zannie.allan.org by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: zannie.allan.org [208.210.72.4]) id QQdieq27161; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: "allan" To: psn@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:10:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Explanation of RFD Reply-to: allan@sociology.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) After posting my request for discussion to PSN and Socgrad, I have received several requests for more information. So, at the risk of alienating the moderators with a post that is somewhat off-topic, I am going to give a brief explanation of what was posted (if you are an old hand and Usenet, or tried it and hated it, now would be a good time to get a snack, or use the delete key ;+}). Usenet is an international collection "bulletin board" style groups. There are more than 30,000 of them worldwide and range in topics from Xena to Amigas. You need special software called, conveniently enough, newsreader software to access them. There are nine large groupings of these news groups, called hierarchies (as well, as hundreds of smaller hierarchies). The "Big 8", as they are referred to, include Recreation (rec. groups), Science (sci. groups), Computers (comp. groups) among others. The 9 large hierarchy is the alt hierarchy. The alt groups are more of an anything goes type of discussion...they are very low signal to noise (you have to wade through dozens of flames, spams, etc to get to the few good messages). Right now, the only place set adside exclusively for Sociological discussion is an alt group called alt.sci.sociology. In addition to the usual make money fast, and hot naked celebrity of the month postings that plague many alt groups, this group is a haven for white supremecy posters. In order to attract new people, and improve the quality of discussion about Sociology on Usenet, we are proposing a new group. This will be in the sci heirarchy, as opposed to the alt hierarchy. This is good because not all schools, or comapnies carry alt groups, they tend to take up way too much disk space, and serious discussion in the alt groups tends to be harder to find. Why is there a need for a Sociological Newsgroup, espeically when there are such well established lists like PSN and Socgrad? Because I think Usenet fills a void that mailing lists miss. When I first joined PSN in 1993 (I took a couple year sabbatical ;+}) I was attracted to the idea of a "virtual cafe" as Martha described it. It sort of beckoned back to France at the beginning of the century...where authors, painters and poets would sit in cafes and argue about life...(okay, maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but you get the idea). Usenet is a lot like that, but you don't have to join anything, find the group you want, read it...and go onto the next group, or come back to it if the people and the conversation hold your interest...instead of a cafe, its more like a wine festival, you have 30,000 winery present and you can sample from each...or go park yourself and your glass under one tent and stay there...(again, this is a bit of a glamorized view...remember, in addition to your Kendall Jacksons there are also going to be your Thunderbirds). If you want to get an idea of the types of discussions that happen on alt.sci.sociology, in your web browser goto http://www.dejanews.com, and in the search field type alt.sci.sociology, and take a read. Thanks for your indulgence, and if you still have any questions, or comments, please feel free to e-mail me: allan@sociology.net allan _____________________________________ allan allan@sociology.net http://www.sociology.net/newsgroup From d.ambery@uws.edu.au Tue Sep 23 02:13:56 1997 Received: from ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU [137.154.72.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id CAA00489 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 02:13:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Debbie-Ambrey.macarthur.uws.edu.au ([137.154.93.101]) by ariel.macarthur.uws.EDU.AU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA36700 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:10:41 +1100 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:10:41 +1100 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970923175422.085f1438@ariel.macarthur.uws.edu.au> X-Sender: a9300352@ariel.macarthur.uws.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: "d.ambery" Subject: Re: Free ASA Section Membership! >************************************************************************** > > MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION FOR ENVIRONMENT & TECHNOLOGY SECTION > >TO: The American Sociological Association > 1722 N Street, NW > Washington, DC 20036 > >FROM: Name _Deborah Ambery > Address _Dept Sociology, > _Faculty Arts and Social Sciences > University Western Sydney, Macarthur > PO Box 555 > State/Country Campbelltown, NSW, Australia > Postal Code 2560 > > Telephone > E-Mail d.ambery@uws.edu.au > > I want to join the Environment and Technology Section. Enclosed is a > check made payable to the *American Sociological Association* for > section dues. > > ___ $12.00 for Members > ___ $ 5.00 for Student Members > >************************************************************************** > > > > > From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Tue Sep 23 13:42:33 1997 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA23860; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:42:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cats-po-1 (root@cats-po-1.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.22]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id MAA24118; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu by cats-po-1 (8.6.13/4.8) id MAA00778; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:41:47 -0700 Message-ID: <30646233.4AFFBE82@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 12:38:27 -0700 From: Christian Harlow Reply-To: harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" CC: WSN , "PHILOFHI (PHILosophy OF HIstory and theoretical history)" Subject: Re: Explanation of RFD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I am currently in the process of researching statistical software packages. I am fairly familiar with SPSS but have decided to take a look at other packages as well before I make a recommendation to the PI of the grant that I am working with. What I am looking for is something that is easy to use, reliable, works well with other programs/spreadsheets etc..., something that runs on Win95 well yet is also still being made for Mac's (I have heard that SPSS has threatened to no longer produce the software for Macintosh). If you know of any listserv's or usenet discussions about this I would be most appreciattive also.... Best Christian Harlow From 1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU Tue Sep 23 14:19:09 1997 Received: from kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (kuhub.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.32.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA26387 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:19:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [129.237.7.42] (kuts14p15.cc.ukans.edu) by KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU (PMDF V5.1-8 #17265) with ESMTP id <01INZJ3OUVTS013QM6@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:19:01 CDT (UTC -05:00) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:23:57 -0600 From: Christopher Gunn <1k1mgm@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU> Subject: URL for Mac stats information In-reply-to: <30646233.4AFFBE82@cats.ucsc.edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: Christian Harlow writes: >I am currently in the process of researching statistical software >packages. I am fairly familiar with SPSS but have decided to take a look >at other packages as well before I make a recommendation to the PI of the >grant that I am working with. This is all summarized on: http://students.gsm.uci.edu/~joelwest/MacStats/ Keep in mind that there's a problem of familiarity, especially on the part of reviewers. You can find, on the WWW site mentioned above, information about a package called "Stata" that seems like a plausible competitor to SPSS, but then you have to ask yourself whether you really want to be the ONLY manuscript in a journal's in-basket that happened to use "Stata".... This is a real drag--it's why we have the "Windows" standard (or network TV, if you want to generalize)--but it's something that has to be factored in. (I only use "Stata" as an example, I have no particular knowledge of it, other than that it is the only Mac-compatible package that seems to want to compete in terms of capabilities with SPSS or SAS. Other things are either more generalized [e.g., Mathematica] or more specialized [StatView, Data Desk, etc.].) Good luck. Christopher Gunn Molecular Graphics and Modeling Laboratory 1k1mgm@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas Phone: 913-864-4428 or -4495 Malott Hall Lawrence, KS 66045 From lucas@utdallas.edu Tue Sep 23 15:01:36 1997 Received: from utdallas.edu (utdallas.edu [129.110.10.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id PAA27872 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:01:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inca.utdallas.edu (lucas@inca.utdallas.edu [129.110.16.10]) by utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00241 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:01:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (lucas@localhost) by inca.utdallas.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA18637 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:01:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: inca.utdallas.edu: lucas owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:01:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael D Lucas To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Explanation of RFD In-Reply-To: <30646233.4AFFBE82@cats.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know about the Mac availability, but a software package called Stata is getting good reviews from many users at UT Dallas as a user friendly, but powerful, statistics tool On Sat, 23 Sep 1995, Christian Harlow wrote: > Hi all, > > I am currently in the process of researching statistical software > packages. I am fairly familiar with SPSS but have decided to take a look > at other packages as well before I make a recommendation to the PI of the > grant that I am working with. What I am looking for is something that is > easy to use, reliable, works well with other programs/spreadsheets > etc..., something that runs on Win95 well yet is also still being made > for Mac's (I have heard that SPSS has threatened to no longer produce the > software for Macintosh). If you know of any listserv's or usenet > discussions about this I would be most appreciattive also.... > > Best > > Christian Harlow > > Michael D. Lucas School of Social Sciences University of Texas at Dallas P.O. 830688 Mail Station GR 31 Richardson, Texas 75083-0688 email: lucas@utdallas.edu (972) 994-9745 From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Sep 23 21:34:41 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAA13828 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:34:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01IO00DCYEWW9FM7SG@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:34:00 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01IO00CW9Y8299DSOB@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id XAA22110 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:33:30 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:33:30 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Explanation of RFD To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709240333.XAA22110@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> References: >I am currently in the process of researching statistical software >packages. I am fairly familiar with SPSS but have decided to take a look >at other packages as well before I make a recommendation to the PI of the >grant that I am working with. What I am looking for is something that is >easy to use, reliable, works well with other programs/spreadsheets >etc..., something that runs on Win95 well yet is also still being made >for Mac's (I have heard that SPSS has threatened to no longer produce the >software for Macintosh). If you know of any listserv's or usenet >discussions about this I would be most appreciattive also.... There is a usenet newsgroup for spss users, but I don't get it here. I know you can get it at UCSC though. I have heard that SPSS will not be porting to Mac any longer. In fact, I think that Macs are already one vs behind. I have used Stata, SAS, and SPSS. They are all excellent products, although they each have different strengths and weaknesses. The best choice would depend on what you want to do. Stata is probably my personal all-around favorite, and it has the best and most didactic manual when it comes to actual statistical analysis. It seems to be more on the cutting edge of data analytic practice than the other two. SPSS is something of a standard, which sometimes helps when you're working with other people's data or programs. SAS has the best batch programming language, which is important if you're doing a lot of long, complex things that you want to be able to save and recreate. I think that any of these three programs would be a good investment, though. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Tue Sep 23 21:39:29 1997 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAA14168 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:39:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) id <01IO00K5AZ9C9FM78Q@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:38:48 EDT Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #18666) with SMTP id <01IO00JAPLUI99DM7P@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id XAA25468 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:38:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:38:40 -0400 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: URL for Mac stats information To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199709240338.XAA25468@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> References: >Keep in mind that there's a problem of familiarity, especially on the >part of reviewers. You can find, on the WWW site mentioned >above, information about a package called "Stata" that seems like >a plausible competitor to SPSS, but then you have to ask yourself >whether you really want to be the ONLY manuscript in a journal's >in-basket that happened to use "Stata". Why would anyone care what program you used? How would they even know? From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Sep 24 04:58:53 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id EAA29012 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id GAA12160; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:57:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:57:36 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: URL for Mac stats information In-Reply-To: <199709240338.XAA25468@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Thomas F Brown wrote: > >Keep in mind that there's a problem of familiarity, especially on the > >part of reviewers. You can find, on the WWW site mentioned > >above, information about a package called "Stata" that seems like > >a plausible competitor to SPSS, but then you have to ask yourself > >whether you really want to be the ONLY manuscript in a journal's > >in-basket that happened to use "Stata". > > Why would anyone care what program you used? Because different packages sometimes use different algorithms. This is less problematic for "established" techniques like OLS regression. Also there's been some controvery about some of the newer PC packages, at least amongt statisticians who specialize in statistical computing. I don't think this is a very big problem for most sociologists, however, as we don't work at this level. >How would they even know? > Some authors note the software used for computing statistics. It's like giving a proper citation for data sets--one of those things we probably should do more often. Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Sep 24 05:00:29 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id FAA29148 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:00:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id GAA12173; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:59:14 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:59:14 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Special Issue of Soc Forum on Critical Demography (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 04:28:53 -0500 From: hdh@csc.albany.edu To: abslst-l@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu, laos@uic.edu, sssnet@frosty.irss.unc.edu, comurb_r21@email.rutgers.edu, appsoc@indiana.edu Subject: Special Issue of Soc Forum on Critical Demography CALL FOR PAPERS SOCIOLOGICAL FORUM Special Issue or Special Module CRITICAL DEMOGRAPHY Sociological Forum invites submissions for a special module or special issue on Critical Demography. Critical Demography is an exciting new paradigm that facilitates the development of theories, concepts and methods that explicitly address the relationships between the nature of the social order and demographic phenomena in society. In essence, critical demography holds that the social structure differentially affects dominant and subordinate populations in any given society. Hence, in order to understand society's demographic processes, population change, and population policies, it is necessary to articulate the social, historical and political bases of power and control. Topics might include: * The Impact of Racism on Differential Mortality between Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, and Other Minority Populations Globally * The Effects of Population Control on Social Mobility and Status Attainment * The Relationship between Social Structure, Population Size and Foreign Policies * Estimating America's Tolerance of Non-European Descendent Immigrants * Gender, Population Power and Population Policies in Lesser Developed Countries * New Population Theories for the New World Order: The Emergence of Eastern Societies Please submit manuscripts for peer review by February 15, 1998 to: Hayward Derrick Horton Guest Editor Sociological Forum Department of Sociology University at Albany-State University of New York Albany, NY 12222 Ph.(518) 442-4907; Fax (518)442-4936; Email: hdh@csc.albany.edu ************************************************************ Hayward Derrick Horton, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Sociology SUNY-Albany Phone: (518) 442-4907 fax: (518) 442-4936 Email: From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Sep 25 13:06:59 1997 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id NAA02796 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id PAA02032; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:05:39 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:05:38 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Call For Papers (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell Institute for Research in Social Science e-mail: cassell@irss.unc.edu University of North Carolina Ph: 919/962-0782 Fx: 919/962-4777 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3355 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:31:54 -0700 From: Beth Quinn To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Call For Papers Steven Schacht, who we have the pleasure of having as an adjunct on our faculty this year, has asked me to forward this call for papers. Beth Quinn Call For Papers > >Race, Gender & Class invites submissions for a special issue on "Sexuality." > We seek papers that explore how the interlocking, socially experienced >categories of race, gender, and class affect the ways in which sexuality is >defined and acted upon in various segments of society. Possible topics of >interest include differences in attraction and communication, concepts of >morality, the eroticization of power, sexual humor, and sexual identity >issues. Cross-cultural, interdisciplinary, >and academic/non-academic papers are welcomed. For further information, >please contact of the guest-editors: Dr. Doris Ewing, Department of Sociology >and Anthropology, Southwest Missouri State University, Springfield, MO 65807. > Phone: 417-836-5684/E-Mail: dwe997f@wpgate.smsu.edu or Dr. Steven P. >Schacht, Department of Sociology, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT >59717. Phone: 406-522-7466/E-Mail: SPSCHACHT@AOL.COM. Deadline for >submissions is December 31, 1997. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Beth A. Quinn, Ph.D. Assistant Professor PH: 406/994-4180 Department of Sociology e-mail:isibq@msu.oscs.edu Montana State University Bozeman, MT 59717 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From jackie@u.washington.edu Thu Sep 25 13:16:54 1997 Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA04180 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:16:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homer16.u.washington.edu (jackie@homer16.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.17]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA12248 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:16:50 -0700 Received: from localhost (jackie@localhost) by homer16.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA45814 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:16:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:16:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jacqueline Adams To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello. Does anyone know of any women's studies email groups like this one? And also any women's studies electronic job bulletins? Thanks for your help. Jacqueline From jvaughn@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu Thu Sep 25 14:59:35 1997 Received: from nimbus.ocis.temple.edu (nimbus.ocis.temple.edu [155.247.166.101]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA09371 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:59:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from jvaughn@localhost) by nimbus.ocis.temple.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA28516 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:59:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jennifer Vaughn Message-Id: <199709252059.QAA28516@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu> Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:59:33 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from Jacqueline Adams at "Sep 25, 97 12:16:49 pm" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello. > > Does anyone know of any women's studies email groups like this one? And > also any women's studies electronic job bulletins? > > Thanks for your help. > > Jacqueline Jacqueline, last night i went on a netscape rampage and i found some stuff about this.. there is a page at U. of Maryland that has some links to women's studies discussion groups, but for some reason it isn't working.. but another one you might want to check out is http://weewannie.library.ubc.ca/wmst/discuss.html hope this helps. :) Jen From apap@asanet.org Thu Sep 25 15:36:47 1997 Received: from enterprise.csi1.com (enterprise.csi1.com [205.136.28.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id PAA11813 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:36:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BCC9D9.D5F01AE0@enterprise.csi1.com>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:38:29 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: ASA Academic Professional Affairs To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International , "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: Women's studies email groups Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:37:53 -0400 X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Jacqueline, Try FEMISA at listproc@csf.colorado.edu. Send a HELP message and they will reply with more info. on the listserv. I haven't tried this one yet but it might be of interest. Steve Hoffman ASA ---------- From: Jacqueline Adams Sent: Thursday, September 25, 1997 3:16 PM To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups Hello. Does anyone know of any women's studies email groups like this one? And also any women's studies electronic job bulletins? Thanks for your help. Jacqueline begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AX5`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0F `0`A````-3="1$$U M,$-"0C,U1#$Q,4(Q-$(P,#8P.38'OL```,`!A"9VLG@`P`'$+8!```> M``@0`0```&4```!*04-1545,24Y%+%12649%34E304%43$E35%!23T- 0U-& M0T],3U)!1$]%1%5314Y$04A%3%!-15-304=%04Y$5$A%65=)3$Q215!,65=) M5$A-3U)%24Y&3T].5$A%3$E35%-%``````,`$! ``````P`1$ `````"`0D0 M`0```)T"``"9`@``W@0``$Q:1G52"8(E_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0" M`&-H"L!S973N,@8`!L,"@S(#Q@<3`H.Z,Q,-?0J ",\)V3L5_W@R-34"@ J! M#;$+8&[P9S$P,Q0@"PH2\@P!4F,`0"!*`-!Q"E!L,0N 92P@"H4*A51R`'D@ M1D5-25-!C"!A!4 ;0'-T< -@0&- 8W-F+A5S84AD;RX)@'4N!E%N`F0=("!( M14Q0(&$'@7-A9V4=(!\Q=.QH91R@`_!L`R 6``M0_R#"() ?P 6P(# +@ (0 M'O!/`B @@AU3$?!R=A[P2:H@$P!P"H5! M'0`;K KT&T Q!#@P`M%I+3$T-,\-\ S0*V,+63$V"J #8/4FP&,%0"TMAPJ' M+#L,,/4M!D8#83HNCBT&#((:V>$3<&1A;7,N+R\]'Q&F=#!O,7M4: APU,= MP&D5@6=U'*!''G%U'3 @,"@0=;\-L (P!" M@".0)K)N'3 ;/= _X&PYKS1> M=6)JIRU!.\\Q>U)E0M!7`W#_(_$$(!V /O (D 0@.$ +<#<#( G "&!P,S8I M_3,VWRP'%"(,`2T&"H5(&S 5D%DG+41O!Y$`<'DD\FO\;F\'X"9Q2[$@T$4/ M1ACM'5%K(# DIC\3`````````-RG0,C 0A : MM+D(`"LOX8(!`````````"X````>`/@_`0```!4```!3>7-T96T@061M:6YI M; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:21:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from homer08.u.washington.edu (jackie@homer08.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.12]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id QAA31680 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:21:10 -0700 Received: from localhost (jackie@localhost) by homer08.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id QAA08694 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:21:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:21:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jacqueline Adams To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: RE: Women's studies email groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Steve! J From Sds2489@aol.com Thu Sep 25 17:46:47 1997 Received: from emout23.mail.aol.com (emout23.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.128]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA17611 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:46:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Sds2489@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout23.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA08462 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925190223_-1998241067@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups In a message dated 97-09-25 17:05:11 EDT, you write: << > Does anyone know of any women's studies email groups like this one? And > also any women's studies electronic job bulletins? >> There are listings and links to around 300 gender-related electronic forums in http://www-unix.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/forums.html Stephanie From JWL8200@dcccd.edu Fri Sep 26 11:01:05 1997 Received: from ns.dcccd.edu (ns.dcccd.edu [144.162.10.230]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id LAA22131 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:01:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dcccd.edu by ns.dcccd.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14152; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:56:27 -0500 Received: from DCCCD-Message_Server by dcccd.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:23:11 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:22:53 -0500 From: Julia Lam To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Explanation of RFD -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Thomas: STATA also has a discussion group, but I am not sure whether subscription is restricted to patrons only or not. Their web page is "STATA.COM". Personally, I prefer STATA and SPSS over SAS. Good luck... Julia Lam Research Office Richland College. JWL8200@DCCCD.EDU >>> Thomas F Brown 09/23/97 10:33pm >>> >I am currently in the process of researching statistical software >packages. I am fairly familiar with SPSS but have decided to take a look >at other packages as well before I make a recommendation to the PI of the >grant that I am working with. What I am looking for is something that is >easy to use, reliable, works well with other programs/spreadsheets >etc..., something that runs on Win95 well yet is also still being made >for Mac's (I have heard that SPSS has threatened to no longer produce the >software for Macintosh). If you know of any listserv's or usenet >discussions about this I would be most appreciattive also.... There is a usenet newsgroup for spss users, but I don't get it here. I know you can get it at UCSC though. I have heard that SPSS will not be porting to Mac any longer. In fact, I think that Macs are already one vs behind. I have used Stata, SAS, and SPSS. They are all excellent products, although they each have different strengths and weaknesses. The best choice would depend on what you want to do. Stata is probably my personal all-around favorite, and it has the best and most didactic manual when it comes to actual statistical analysis. It seems to be more on the cutting edge of data analytic practice than the other two. SPSS is something of a standard, which sometimes helps when you're working with other people's data or programs. SAS has the best batch programming language, which is important if you're doing a lot of long, complex things that you want to be able to save and recreate. I think that any of these three programs would be a good investment, though. From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Fri Sep 26 11:56:43 1997 Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA23812 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:56:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lmiller@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.6/8.8.3) id KAA17828 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Miller Message-Id: <199709261758.KAA17828@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: Activism/Academy: Call for Papers (fwd) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Forwarded message from owner-psn@csf.colorado.edu ----- > From owner-psn@csf.colorado.edu Fri Sep 26 09:02:25 1997 > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 10:15:43 CST > Reply-To: mkarim@moses.culver.edu > Sender: owner-psn@csf.colorado.edu > From: "" > To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK > Subject: Activism/Academy: Call for Papers (fwd) > CALL FOR PAPERS > > Activism and the Academy: Opening Dialogues > An Interdisciplinary Conference > > Saturday, March 28, 1998 The George Washington University, Washington DC > > With a keynote address by BRUCE ROBBINS, Rutgers University > > Suggested presentation topics include: > labor issues and the academy > theory/practice > politics and the university > real world/academy > community organizations and university participation > action/writing > > Abstracts for papers, as well as panels and workshop proposals, are > invited for The George Washington University's fourth annual > interdisciplinary conference, hosted by the Departments of English, > American Studies, and Anthropology, and the Programs in the Human Sciences > and Women's Studies. We have two major goals for this conference: one, to > initiate communication with activists who can inform academic inquiry; > and, two, to explore ways in which academic inquiry can benefit activists. > > This conference grows out of our need to understand the relationship > between practice, experience, and theory. As activists, faculty, students, > and as members of the local community where we work and carry on our daily > lives, we are interested in expanding our involvement in some of the > struggles and enterprises of this community. Futher, as course offerings > on theories of race, multiculturalism, feminism, marxism and > postcolonialism proliferate in the academy, we are interested in asking > what realities they address (or ignore), and what praxis they strengthen > (or fail to). The university itself, it is important to acknowledge, is a > place of politics: the issues of what gets taught and how, the hiring and > tenure of scholars of color, and the status of faculty at lower levels who > make up large writing programs, resonate with the larger politics of race, > gender and sexuality. The need to initiate dialogues on these areas of > academic thinking and functioning is a pressing and urgent one today. > > Recognizing that there are different ways that information and ideas can > be effectively transmitted, we encourage participants to use various > presentation styles and draw from methodologies of different disciplines. > We encourage written submissions as well as presentations and workshops > that use film, performance, or music. > > Guidelines for Submission: All submissions should be received by November > 25, 1997. Please submit one-page abstracts of your proposal for a > 20-minute paper, workshop, performance, or viewing, in triplicate along > with a listing of name, title of paper, professional affiliation (if > applicable), telephone number, and email address to: > > Activism and the Academy Conference > Program in the Human Sciences > 801 22nd Street, NW, Suite T-412 > The George Washington University > Washington, DC 20052 > > fax: 202/994-7034 > email: openingd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu > > Updated conference information available on the World Wide Web at > http://www.gwu.edu/~activism > ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ > From jmote@sas.upenn.edu Fri Sep 26 13:23:56 1997 Received: from mail1.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL1.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.32]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA27375 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:23:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from jmote@localhost) by mail1.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id PAA15285 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:23:53 -0400 (EDT) From: jmote@sas.upenn.edu (Jonathan E Mote) Message-Id: <199709261923.PAA15285@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:23:52 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199709252059.QAA28516@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu> from "Jennifer Vaughn" at Sep 25, 97 04:59:33 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a very good feminist economics email group called FEMECON. Unfortunately, I don't know the subscription info. If you do a web search, you should be able to find it. Jon Jennifer Vaughn wrote: > > > Hello. > > > > Does anyone know of any women's studies email groups like this one? And > > also any women's studies electronic job bulletins? > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > Jacqueline > > Jacqueline, > last night i went on a netscape rampage and i found some stuff about > this.. there is a page at U. of Maryland that has some links to women's > studies discussion groups, but for some reason it isn't working.. but > another one you might want to check out is > http://weewannie.library.ubc.ca/wmst/discuss.html > hope this helps. :) > > Jen > > > From jmote@sas.upenn.edu Fri Sep 26 13:32:51 1997 Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu (MAIL2.SAS.UPENN.EDU [165.123.26.33]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA27676 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from jmote@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3/SAS.03) id PAA26577 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:32:48 -0400 (EDT) From: jmote@sas.upenn.edu (Jonathan E Mote) Message-Id: <199709261932.PAA26577@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Women's studies email groups To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:32:47 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199709261923.PAA15285@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> from "Jonathan E Mote" at Sep 26, 97 03:23:52 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To subscribe to FEMECON, send the message "subscribe FEMECON-L" to the following address: listserv@bucknell.edu Hope this helps. Jon Jonathan E Mote wrote: > > There is a very good feminist economics email group called FEMECON. > Unfortunately, I don't know the subscription info. If you do a web > search, you should be able to find it. > > Jon > > From jmccorke@UDel.Edu Tue Sep 30 22:12:59 1997 Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA20579 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:12:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from stormy (tni206-152-187-188.net-works.net [206.152.187.188]) by copland.udel.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA25394; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971001001017.006d7a84@udel.edu> X-Sender: jmccorke@udel.edu (Unverified) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:10:17 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Jill McCorkel Subject: Sociology of Law Cc: deflemm@sri.soc.purdue.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm forwarding this announcement along to the group to encourage any and all interested grad students. As a graduate student member myself, I can testify that participation in this section has been tremendously beneficial to my development as a scholar. The opportunities for intellectual exchange, practical advice, and establishing relations with like-minded colleagues are rife. More practically, I have made a number of good connections with scholars at schools outside of my own and I have recieved information about job openings, and constructive advice on what to include in a c.v., cover-letter, and more. Of course, I'll praise the section even more if I am able to successfully secure an academic position this year (I'll keep the group updated on my efforts ;-) ). Other benefits of section membership? Affordable membership fees and a wonderful newsletter that provides updates on who's doing what and where!!! Jill McCorkel, University of Delaware >>------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >> >>THE SOCIOLOGY OF LAW SECTION >>OF THE AMERICAN SOCIOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION >> >>The American Sociological Association (ASA) is the country's largest >>professional association of sociologists. It is the prime forum for >>sociologists working inside as well as outside the academia to disseminate >>pertinent information and keep up with recent events in society and >>sociology. The ASA publishes various sociological journals, a newsletter >>(Footnotes), and organizes a large meeting every year. >> >>The ASA also houses various specialized sections, i.e. smaller groups of >>sociologists with similar theoretical, methodological, and/or substantive >>interests. Among these is a section devoted to the sociological study of >>law. >> >>The sociology of law is a relative young but highly vibrant field in the >>discipline. It involves a commitment to linking the study of law with such >>core sociological issues as social change and stability, order and >>disorder, the nation-state and capitalism. Further, the sociology of law >>is committed to theoretically substantiated and methodologically >>sophisticated empirical investigations as the central means of studying >>the dynamics of law-in-society. >> >>The ASA Sociology of Law Section provides a forum for intellectual and >>personal exchange among sociologists interested in the study of law, legal >>institutions, and law-related structures and processes. The Section >>sponsors two sessions and a series of roundtables at the ASA annual >>meetings, and offers various awards, including a best student paper award >>every year. It further provides an e-mail list for any announcements of >>interest to sociologists of law and offers a mentor program for junior >>faculty. >> >>A central goal of the Section is to provide younger scholars, especially >>graduate students and junior faculty, with an intellectual community >>and connections that will be helpul in developing their careers. >> >>Advantages of membership in the Section include: >>- a free newsletter, with a variety of information and as an efficient >> form of networking; >>- access to the membership list in electronic form, which allows for quick >> submission of requests and passing around of information; >>- dissemination of job opportunities through the section's newsletter (next >> to the ASA Employment Bulletin); >>- access to a group of scholars, faculty and students, with similar interests >> and of a scale considerably more accessible and less overwhelming than the >> parent organization; >>- and... the section proudly counts among the finest opportunities to >> meet scholars for discussion, advice, mentoring, and dialogue and to just >> be informed about what's going in sociology and the sociology of law today. >> >>Further information on the ASA and the Sociology of Law Section can >>be found at: http://www.asanet.org >>Or contact: American Sociological Association >> 1722 N Street NW >> Washington, DC 20036 >> tel. (202) 833 3410 >> email: membership@asanet.org > > >Jill McCorkel >Center for Drug & Alcohol Studies >University of Delaware >77 East Main Street >Newark, DE 19716 >302/831-6107 >302/831-3307FAX >jmccorke@udel.edu >