From tr@tryoung.com Sat Aug 1 04:45:49 1998 (usr-mtp-23.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.23]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 06:42:21 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Absolutely Amazing I have a friend who works for Lockheed; he tests supersecret planes for the AirForce...having little to do between test flights, he sends me humor and on occasion, odd little tests like the one below. I am seldom astonished, amazed or befuddled...but this one got to me. I wouldn't send it to just anybody but I think grad students are bright enough and curious enough to help me understand what happened... if anyone can, the prize is a free cup of coffee. TR ********************** Jedi Mind Trick This little Jedi mind trick is kinda freaky, till you think about it a little while. Then it's even more weird. Just follow the instructions below: DON'T scroll down too fast-do it slowly and follow the instructions below exactly, do the math in your head as fast as you can. It may help to say the answers aloud quietly. FOLLOW these instructions one at a time and as QUICKLY as you can! What is: 2+2? 4+4? 8+8? 16+16? Quick! Pick a number between 12 and 5. Got it? Now scroll down... >> > The number you picked was 7, right? Isn't that weird??? Free will or synaptic wiring? You be the judge. Check out the following exercise, guaranteed to freak you out. There's no trick or surprise. Just follow these instructions, and answer the questions one at a time and as quickly as you can! Again, as quickly as you can but don't advance until you've done each of them...really. Now, ARROW down (but not too fast, you might miss something)......... What is: 1+5 2+4 3+3 4+2 5+1 Now repeat saying the number 6 to yourself as fast as you can for 15 seconds. Then scroll down. QUICK!!! THINK OF A VEGETABLE! Then arrow down. Keep going. You're thinking of a carrot right? If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose minds arewarped enough to think of something else. 98% of people will answer with carrot when given this exercise. TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From rb6553a@american.edu Sat Aug 1 11:27:33 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:20:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing TR: Your test was "only" half-amazing for me. I picked the number 6 in the first half, not 7 (which was kind of prescient, given that six was the subject of the second part. But, I did pick carrot. And I have absolutely no idea why. (I do happen to like carrots quite a bit). Robert A. Brooks From tr@tryoung.com Sat Aug 1 12:19:18 1998 (usr-mtp-34.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.34]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:15:50 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing In-Reply-To: <85256653.005F1A0D.00@notes-gw.american.edu> RB: I picked 7 and carrot; as did my housekeeper and as did Garth Massey...'tis weird!! They are the only three I've heard from other than you. TR At 01:20 PM 8/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >TR: >Your test was "only" half-amazing for me. I picked the number 6 in the >first half, not 7 (which was kind of prescient, given that six was the >subject of the second part. But, I did pick carrot. And I have absolutely >no idea why. (I do happen to like carrots quite a bit). >Robert A. Brooks > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From lminen@unl.edu.ar Sat Aug 1 12:46:59 1998 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:46:50 -0600 (MDT) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Laura Minen Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing Tr, Actually amazing! I thought of a "7" in the first one. But I thought of an small indoor palm tree in the second... What does that mean? LAURA At 06:42 01/08/1998 -0400, you wrote: > > >I have a friend who works for Lockheed; he tests supersecret planes >for the AirForce...having little to do between test flights, he sends >me humor and on occasion, odd little tests like the one below. > >I am seldom astonished, amazed or befuddled...but this one got to me. >I wouldn't send it to just anybody but I think grad students are >bright enough and curious enough to help me understand what happened... >if anyone can, the prize is a free cup of coffee. > > TR > > ********************** > Jedi Mind Trick > > This little Jedi mind trick is kinda freaky, till you think about > it a little while. > >Then it's even more weird. Just follow the instructions below: > > DON'T scroll down too fast-do it slowly and follow the instructions > below exactly, do the math in your head as fast as you can. > > It may help to say the answers aloud quietly. > > > FOLLOW these instructions one at a time and as QUICKLY as you > can! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2+2? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4+4? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8+8? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 16+16? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quick! Pick a number between 12 and 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got it? > > > > > Now scroll down... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The number you picked was 7, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't that weird??? > > > > > > > > > > > Free will or synaptic wiring? You be the judge. > Check out the following exercise, guaranteed to freak you > out. > There's no trick or surprise. Just follow these > instructions, and > answer > the questions one at a time and as quickly as you can! > Again, as quickly as you can but don't advance until you've > done > each > of > them...really. Now, ARROW down (but not too fast, you might > miss > something)......... > > > > > > > > What is: > 1+5 > > > > > > > > > > > 2+4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3+3 > > > > > > > > > > > 4+2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5+1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now repeat saying the number 6 to yourself as fast as you can > for 15 > seconds. > Then scroll down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > QUICK!!! THINK OF A VEGETABLE! Then arrow down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep going. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're thinking of a carrot right? > > If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose > minds arewarped enough to think of something else. > >98% of people will answer with carrot when given this exercise. > > > >TR Young, 8085 Essex >Weidman, Mi., 48893 >Email: tr@tryoung.com > > ___ _.-| | |\__/,| (`\ { | | |o o |__ _) ) "-.|___| _.( T ) ` / .--'-`-. _((_ `^--' /_< \ .+|______|__.-||__)`-'(((/ (((/ Laura Minen Universidad Nacional del Litoral Santa Fe Argentina From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Aug 1 13:06:35 1998 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:06:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980801141550.0090d440@tryoung.com> Mona chose the number 10 and became disenchanted. Andy From myersc@okway.okstate.edu Sat Aug 1 13:49:30 1998 From: myersc@okway.okstate.edu Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:48:03 -0600 To: Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing I chose 9 and corn. always have been a little odd, I guess Cm ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Absolutely Amazing Date: 8/1/98 6:42 AM I have a friend who works for Lockheed; he tests supersecret planes for the AirForce...having little to do between test flights, he sends me humor and on occasion, odd little tests like the one below. I am seldom astonished, amazed or befuddled...but this one got to me. I wouldn't send it to just anybody but I think grad students are bright enough and curious enough to help me understand what happened... if anyone can, the prize is a free cup of coffee. xTê` T From cbrown@siu.edu Sat Aug 1 14:35:37 1998 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:36:15 -0500 (CDT) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: cbrown@siu.edu (Charles M. Brown) Subject: Totally Amazing As I've suspected all along..... I am screwed up!!!! I picked 6 and corn...hum!? Quapla' Chuck- ???????????????????????????????????????? ?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? ?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a ?? Southern Illinois University ?? three-edged sword" ?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? Kosh Naranek ?? (618) 453-2494 ?? ?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? ?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? ???????????????????????????????????????? From Nogod1@aol.com Sat Aug 1 15:06:01 1998 From: Nogod1@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:05:31 EDT To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Carrots and 7's TR, I have seen these before (by that I mean this genre of tests/trick). The first one is simple, the answers to all the questions are even, except the last one. They ask what is between 12 and 5. Now you just finished doing math, you mind sees 12 and 5 and thinks either (12+5 or 12-5), thus giving either 17 or 7. The other one I don't really know (I picked an onion, but I did have a brief thought of an orange and then a carrot first.) Perhaps something with the color. I did decide on carrot, because it is rather silly to go with your first instict on those types of test, lest you fall for whatever it is set up to do. Could it be that a carrot is the most common veg? Or that (now don't laugh at this suggestion) but it is a straight and long vegetable. The constant answers of 6 can make one think is a very linear fashion.....just a thought/ Thanks for giving me something to think about. In thought, vincent bruzzese suny at stonybrook From neese@nevada.edu Sat Aug 1 15:42:26 1998 Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:42:22 -0700 (PDT) From: DENISE M DALAIMO To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing In-Reply-To: <85256653.005F1A0D.00@notes-gw.american.edu> TR: FYI, I picked 6 and cucumber, hmmm ... Is someone keeping track? (ever the social scientist) Denise D. On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 rb6553a@american.edu wrote: > TR: > Your test was "only" half-amazing for me. I picked the number 6 in the > first half, not 7 (which was kind of prescient, given that six was the > subject of the second part. But, I did pick carrot. And I have absolutely > no idea why. (I do happen to like carrots quite a bit). > Robert A. Brooks > > From tombrown@jhu.edu Sat Aug 1 16:52:52 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 18:52:29 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Remind me not to use that algorithm for a random number generator. From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sat Aug 1 17:08:53 1998 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 98 15:45:16 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: Totally Amazing To: socgrad The "Totally Amazing" exercise Just Goes to Show me - Social forces act in mysterious, not malicious ways! - A Haynesian Sociology derivative of social relativeity theory! (Hmmm - that is a twist and shout of Einstein's pronouncement that "God is mysterious, not malicious.") I can give a qualitative "take" on this, but SuperDan, the Math Man, will be in better position to "muse" over the complex organization of the Totally amazing" phenomenon. I received this yesterday from an Aggie Former Student in Madras. I considered forwarding it to this list. Thanks, tr, for sending it. I am very looking forward to what Dan Ryan, Alan Davidson, and Pamela (forgot your last name, sorry!) have to say about this. Alan, what do you think Parsons would say!? I'm really looking forward to what Dr. Mestrovic has to say, as well as, what he thinks Durkheim would say! Like tr, I was curious about the psychological and sociological aspects of the phenomenon. I picked 7 on the first one, but Eggplant on the second one. - although carrot and eggplant hit my mind nearly simultaneously - - it didn't take much to determine that carrot was probably the answer of the masses. I actually thought of Maroon Carrots - which I served at my oral prelims. (They were developed here at A&M to improve beta-carotene content. They are ugly and have required some strategic techniques in order to market!) Cross-culturally and historically, numbers have fairly consistent meaning. Here is some of what I have been told or read. The number 5 is the number of life. It does not occur natually in inanimate objects. The number 7 is the number for heaven and the number 12 is the perfect number - seen frequently in astrology, # of months, etc. 7 equals 4 (death) plus 3 (god) and 12 is 4 Times 3. I thought it was interesting that we were asked to choose a number between 12 and 5 rather than vice versa - from large to smaller rather than small to larger. The second one, everything adds up to the number of man - 6. Christians are NOT the only group of people who believe that the number 666 represents an antithesis to "good." The number re-presents, somehow, the essence of "anti-ness." The number 666 is additive, while the powers of good are multiplicative and exponential. Muslims and some non-specific numerologists have the same understanding of the number. (I really am trying to avoid the word "belief" here, after that last controversy!) Delving further into the "order" of the other numbers and then venturing into some socionumeric theories as well as some sociovegetative theories, we could probably enhance (or enchant) our understanding of the phenomenon. For example, what about the logical vs. numeric differences in multiplying by one which still equals one, but when two people marry they are intended to become a greater ONE than either could be seperately. They each bring their individual oneness - and - hopefully, - become 'more' bigger, brighter, than what they would be 'alone' i.e. it becomes 1 X 1 > than 1+1 - even though-mathematically 1X1=1 and 1+1=2. The same goes with dividing with zero - mathematically the process has no meaning, can't be done and if we multiply by zero, all goes to nothing. Is there a human, lived corrollary to these? What about dividing by One - is that where "we" each get conquered? (Just Musing - Folks!) (Hope you find this amusing, or perhaps a little bemusing - but please, believe me, it is NOT "assuming"!) What does this mean? Never in several millenia, much less this fin de millenia would I dare to attempt to answer such a question - for me or for any one of you, or for the collectivity! tr asked us to contribute to understanding, what was it-a free cup of coffee if we could explain it. Well, my Bachelor's degree in sociology and a buck will get my own coffee. My PhD and a buck will get me that same cup of coffee - but the only answer my sociology gives me to this enigma is There are forces - social or otherwise - which act on social beings in patterned but unpredictable ways. Perhaps there is more to be learned from those who are in the 3rd standard deviation from the mean than from the conformists - what are similarities and differences in the social conditions and psyches of the outliers - (uhh - for you non-quant types - that means roughly the outer 2% of a statistical test.) As sociologist we see that this is a one-tailed test because either you answered with the "norm" of 7 and carrot or you did not. There were four total options 7 and carrot; 7 and other; other and carrot; or other and other. Out of the 'deviants' what is the distribution of deviant on 1, deviant on the second and deviant on both? These possibilities move us out of the +X, +Y model of 20th century soc and into using the other quadrants of basic algebra, i.e. Quadrant II -X, +Y; Quadrant III -X,-Y, and Quadrant IV +X, -Y. PLUS it means adding a Z axis - AND moving the Zero Point in time and space - And Factor Analysis just barely begins to "grab" it - not only that - the BASIC ASSUMPTIONS of nominal level data have been violated - many of the things we study are not, and never were mutually exclusive and exhaustive. Plus one cause may create multiple effects and several causes may have similar effects. And if you don't have a clue about what I'm talking about, you won't get very far in 21st century sociology! Cause the up and comers at your back are going to huff and puff (no, they are going to sneeze) and blow your social structures made out of toothpicks and dominoes all down in a row! I am REALLY glad that Civil Engineers do not build and study civil structures like sociologists do! Since soc grad students are marginals among marginals, I would hypothesize that we are statistically different "on-the-average" from the general population. This could be measured by our responses to the "Totally Amazing" phenomenon! Qualitatively, we will probably come up with some really "weird" combinations. (Has anyone come up with 11? I would expect quite a few 6's and a few of the others, Somehow I don't expect many 8's - don't know about 9's and 10's.) Really seems ironic in our "digital" society!!! (that's ten, i.e. the #10 base system - get the point - [[ugh, bad puns, Frances!}} In previous writing, tr has written, "There is No God." "Trust me." Now he is asking for us to explain this and someone writes back and asks him what it means. My response is quizzical also. What does the "red feather" in Peter Pan's hat 'mean?' What happened to the 'lost boys'-(not children) in Never-never land? Is confronting the reality of a situation and redefining a situation any less real in its consequences than another definition of the situation? Who creates the definition? Where does it lead? Did the children ask the Pied Piper where he was leading them? Oops switched fairy tales and stories - but not the author's meaning - the reader is still free to choose. I am NOT seeking answers to these questions, merely musing. A while back I posted a long response to a discussion about "them" re-categorizing "our" discipline. A process by Library of Congress which will cost mega-bucks to re-catalog - may not be what "we" think of our discipline and may subjugate us within the confines that we once tried to extricate ourselves from (i.e. psych and literature and history), I reflected on the process of social control by "them," how "we" have an obligation to study issues at deeper levels and multitude of meanings, quantitAtive and qualitative, as well as importance, intensity, etc. I reflected that Spencer cautioned us about "Contempt before investigation" AND that some of my most constricting professors were the most dogmatically atheistic, while those who professed a variety of faiths, Sikh, Muslim, Christian, Unitarian, Jewish, Hindu - allowed me to find my own level. Although they were clear about their values, they never imposed them on me. The atheist did. In that post I asked if I deserve the same respect that others expect me to give - even though I am white, female, old, Christian, straight and A Texas Aggie. Texas A&M is rated in the reputation, prestige polls at around 50 in sociology - not bad. I have professors from the "best" schools - some of these profs are the epitome - best of the best - in living the three-fold mission of an academician - they are educators, researchers and leaders in social service. Others are not. This school and department were the "right" one for me, although not very many people would even begin to be as appreciative of the gold nuggets I mined here. From the Academic Building, I look at Rudder Tower - named for a man of vision, integrity and dignity - a man who led 225 hand-picked and specially trained men through a situation where few would dare to go - only 90 lived to tell the tale of there part in the Normandy Invasion and D-Day - But they did it so others could live, and live freely. Freedom, folks -- Freedom to argue over whether To "Believe It or Not" and even, Freedom to say that when "believe" is the verb in the sentence, the sentence is not about belief - BUT saying that someone or someones are Artifically Stupid because of their beliefs HAS CROSSED THE LINE and REMOVED a FREEDOM FROM SOMEONE ELSE - Your freedom to swing your arm, ends at mine or someone else's nose! Those mostly white men who died at Normandy did not die for WHITE MEN to be free - and Earl Rudder carried forward with that! The Aggie's who held Muster on April 21 on Corregidor during WWII were fighting for Freedom and Justice for ALL - Red, Yellow, Black and White, rich and poor, male and female - and for the RIGHT AS WELL AS THE RESPONSIBILITY for to provided Equal Opportunity - NOT Equality - to the best of the best! They fought, died AND LIVED - for the right for Dat Ngyuen, Dante Hall, Frances Haynes, Susan Alexander, Clement Glenn, Amy Kardell, JuChuan Wang, AND Blake McKinney, Brandon Neff, Sam Bluntzer, Brandon Stewart - etc-to Dare to be Different - to dare to learn what it means to be among the 96-98% of the Two-Percenters of the World!!! The bottom line on the "little trick" is that numbers do have a qualitative effect on people. A qualitative effect which can be quantitatively observed, although we do not know "why?" or what "it means." All I will say is DO NOT TRUST ME!! Question me, question my perspectives, but do so with respect for the ideas, not by tossing around a lot of Analytical BS. And yes I got in BIG TROUBLE once upon a time for referring to a soc course as Analytical BS 101. Damn, the truth hurts - the essence of sarcasm - but it was an unprofessional thing to do and say. Since then, I refer to the experience but not the specifics. The lesson and principle, not the personality or the teacher. I'll joke, cut up, toss around ideas with the best of 'em. I'll seriously, but lightly send posts which are so FULL of postmodern, theory to practice, Marx, Durkheim, and Chaos theory that I can hardly count all of the plays on words, ideas, and theories which were incorporated in less than 50 lines and the ONLY public response is "Hunh!" In one short post, I used names on this list to show that "we" (the participants - active as well as unseen observers) re-present events in the New Testament - even the names - Matthew, Andrew, Peter, Phillip, James, John, Thomas (AND do the "Thomas's" do a remarkable job in their Doubting Twin Role!) Who is the "Christ?" Who is the "Judas?" Sociology Graduate Students - How Do WE Re-Present our archetypes and what do we do with our knowledge and understanding? In re-jecting them, do we somehow re-create a shadowed side of what we detest? Questions worth asking! It is called Reflexive Sociology - a la Gouldner & Bourdieu! WHO ARE "WE"? What do "we" want to be?" Where are "we" going? Is this the ONLY way to get there? It is VERY easy to debunk something with which we disagree - it is not so easy to learn "why" something works! Or if it works to "our" (meaning the Universe) good! I believe - that All things work together for good for them that love GOD and are called according to his purpose. I also believe that includes ME, and Each of YOU, AND US - because we are all in this together. With or without "belief" in the divinity of a "bible", there are sociological lessons in the humanity of the stories - some of you might want to read them for yourselves. Try the Quiran or Book of Mormon if you think you know all about the Torah. For a really good laugh - pick up the Books of the Apocrypha and read Tobit! For a GREAT romance - try Song of Solomon - even in 'the good ole boy' version that authorized by Jimmy while he was King of England - that book can get the hormones a twitching. So can the love letter from John to "somebody" which is listed as 2nd John in the New Testatment. Then the "Good News" books and letters from some early Jesus groupies, have some interesting lessons about life. And Revelations - WOW - what a scifi trip - out of body experience and all! Did you know the word Chernobyl translates from Russian to English as Wormwood? Did Phillip really get jerked up physically after he baptized the Eunuch? Is truth stranger than fiction? My Sunday School teachers used to insist that the Bible is literal - except for 'this' or maybe 'that' - Now, I'm reading it for myself - fascinating! Maybe the only problem with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found lacking, but maybe it hasn't been tried! (Okay - that last line is not original - it's copycat - and I think I remember where I 'snatched' it, but best not to go into that now! Suffice it to say, Meow! Or perhaps, "Squawk - Squawk - Squawk" The sound of the White Peafowl - They are better than watchdogs - doesn't take much to keep them, they watch out for and protect the barnyard, and squawk loud and shrill when something disturbs them. (From the movie Midnight Express - the warden in the Turkish prison) ******** Well, I DID IT!! Been trying to write THAT piece of my dissertation for several weeks! Couldn't find the 'handle!' Frances LeAnne Haynes A Texas "Aggie from Muskogee" Oklahoma USA aka WindEye, the White Peafowl Just Breezin' around with a different bird's eye view! Flying loose and low to the ground! Including a different 'spin' on sociobiology! From tombrown@jhu.edu Sat Aug 1 17:23:00 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 19:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Totally Amazing--the explanation To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Repeating "six" over and over brings you close to repeating "sex" over and over. So when you stop, you think of the most phallic vegetable--the carrot. Frances's "eggplant" response derives from her earth mother orientation. According to this theory, some of you other folks are just sick perverts. From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sat Aug 1 17:32:30 1998 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 98 18:08:28 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing To: socgrad In-Reply-To: <5b9fca8b.35c3831c@aol.com> Absolutes? Even to a near perfect correlation? 98% - In sociology -Naw? There is no such thing, we all 'know' that! Amazing - For me the only absolutely amazing thing today is Grace - I didn't earn It and don't have to do anything to keep It - Yet It calls me to action To wanting to Love God, Myself, and my neighbors more and more each day. Love is an action, not a feeling. Certainly, 'perfection' is a long way away - but there is progress. I am as intriqued by the various "subject headings" of the replies. "Why" was my earlier response to "Totally Amazing" while the others were "Absolutely Amazing?" Why did someone put a "spoiler" in the subject line? Recently after the rash of belief/disbelief discussions, I heard this. A man found sobriety after years of trying to 'control' his own drinking to no avail - He said that when he first started hearing people say that only a power greater than himself could restore him to sanity and keep him sober - He didn't like the idea and didn't believe it was possible. Then one day, he finally looked around the room at the bright eyes, clearness of words & deeds of his fellows and realized that they had the same problem he did - If 'whatever' this 'thing' was that was keeping them sober - perhaps it could work for him - so he decided that the Collective Energy of this Group O' Drunks (GOD) might work for him - Guess what, it did! PS - I like the notion that carrots are long and straight which is a contributing factor to 'why' people think of them. But I wonder if it would still work if every answer had been "7" which is more nearly carrot-shaped? Or if 'eights' would people think of potatoes? God, I love this! Loved it yesterday when Susan sent it to me! Sociologists could get a LOT of mileage out of this one! I sure hope we can join together in discerning intersubjective factors of the analysis. And, honestly, I do not know whether my beginning the sentence with the term - God - means that I am praying or whether it was an expletive and taking A Holy Name in vain! Amen Frances From law24@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Sat Aug 1 18:36:15 1998 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 18:34:50 -0600 To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU From: Lori Wilkinson Subject: re Totally Amazing I would imagine that the reason most people come up with the word 'carrot' is because it has six letters (repeat 'six' for 15 seconds) and it is a common vegetable in North America. I would be interested in seeing the response in other countries where the carrot is not a common vegetable. Lori Wilkinson Department of Sociology and Prairie Centre of Excellence for Research on Immigration and Integration 1-17 Humanities Centre University of Alberta Edmonton, Alberta CANADA T6G 2E5 Office phone: 403-492-9536 Messages: 403-492-6600 Fax: 403-492-2594 From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sat Aug 1 18:59:28 1998 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 98 18:40:44 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Laughing/crying - not far apart To: socgrad Previous attempts to send this post failed - I finally figured out that I had quotes in the first line. The essay is a response to previous posts regarding Library of Congress re-cataloging sociology sub-fields, then a subject of "too many subfields", then "still laughing." and an on-slaught of posts that ended somewhere with "Artificial Stupidity." In my LONG post today - I reiterated a desire that my beliefs and 'self' be treated with the same respect which others request of me. Many of my posts are light-hearted and enigmatic and turn social theory practically upside-down. This one is straight. It is NOT funny - except for the PS. I hope something of it adds to your sociological imagination(s) and provides different ways of looking at the world, ourselves, social forces, and individual choices. Basics on beliefs, values, norms - etc Statements like "I do believe XYZ" or "I do not believe XYZ" are beliefs, When the verb is "believe," how can the subject or object be other than a "belief" or Not? Sociologically - a belief is neither right or wrong. (Personally, for me, I define 'belief' as something I 'think' and 'feel' - i.e. my cognition and affect are in agreement with each other.) eg: I 'believe' this room is cold - while you 'believe' this room is hot We are BOTH right! But our freedom to believe ends if I try to make you put on a sweater OR if you take away my blanket! We may have to negotiate the thermostat setting. Research: For social scientists, the statement "There is no god" can be a null hypothesis, not a metatheoretical ontological statement. From this null hypothesis, what are the researcher's objectives - to reject or fail-to- reject that which is studied. Could we turn that around and say the null hypothesis is "There is a god" and attempt to falsify that statement - easily- however, we are treading in the concept of nullity. My rhetorical question: - How willing am I (are you) to "fail to reject" the null hypothesis and make a Type II error? What if quantitative or qualitative research and/or further experience falsifies the hypothesis, and you had concluded that there is no god when there is? Likewise, how willing are you to "reject" the null hypothesis knowing that you may have made a Type I error and concluded that there is a god when there is not one. Are you willing to be probably 'right' 95% of the time?- that is we did not come to this conclusion by chance in 95 out of 100 although there is a 5% chance that the 'average' is within a standard deviation of our mathematical mean? 99%? 99.9%? Practical application and education: I answer the questions for myself only - I am willing to share my data with anyone who wants to know how I did my research - but I will not (and can not) make the decisions for anyone else - either individually or collectively. My choice is to reject the null hypothesis. If I die while believing that there is 'something better' out there somewhere - and I am wrong - well, I will never know it, will I? In the meantime, if I am living a delusion and you think I'm tripping through la-la land in the error of my thinking - well, all I can say is I have been where you are, but you have not been where I am - AND more importantly - I hope you NEVER have to go to the HELLS I have lived! And if you think the next line is some of that cutesy - If I just save one, then it has been worth it! B**S***! I'm putting this message out as far and wide as I can throw it! If there is something in it that you can use to make your life qualitatively improved by your own subjective opinion - then please grab it! AND THE MORE THE MERRIER! In the end - If there is A God and the What Ifs...? and What if nots...? get answered - What if those of us who are artifically stupid turn out to be the "real thing?" Sociologically, we can not measure things like where, when, and how prayers are answered. We can not measure how many angels dance on the head of a pin. We cannot even determine if there are angels. We can study peoples beliefs, attitudes, experiences etc about these things. And that means - study in a systematic manner. It doesn't mean drawing some conclusions based on a few loud mouthed, angry bible-thumpers. It means doubting our doubts. It means looking at the negative cases. It means asking questions like "Maybe Granny Franny is crazy, but is she "really" crazy or is that a socially constructed definition of reality? Is she "out of her mind" or just "out of my mind?" What's in this for her? Nothing? These kinds of posts won't do her a great deal of favor in the present social climate of the world and academia? "Why" does she do it? Is it a risk or a chance? Is it one she dares to do or dares not to do or dares to not do? Does it make a difference? Maybe!! Maybe Not!!! Theoretically: As theoretical sociologists (lacks the shine of 'theoretical physicist!'), our theory tells us that the way we define the situation will be real in its consequences. I may never knoew what your consequences are and you may never know what mine are - but they will be real. What are the possible consequences? Moving into the realm of ontology and metatheory, I do not know whether "all" people believe in 'something.' Nor do I know whether believing in "no thing' is to believe in 'some thing.' I do know that I fail to find a fallacy in the logic that 'no thing' is an antithesis of 'some thing.' Basic philosophy teaches an argument may be logical and still be false. The corrollary is that an argument may not seem to follow a logical path and still be true. Boolean circles are re-presentation of possibilities of what 'is' and what 'is not.' Praxis: What do you believe? Do you believe in electricity, in allowing Library of Congress employees to determine the course of our discipline? That there are 'jobs' out there for Ph.D's? That you will be a GradStudent forever or an adjunct faculty member? Did you go to grad school to "get a job?" Are there alternatives? Is what "is" the same thing as what "ought?" If not, how did we get here? Where are we going? And how are we going to get there? Is there a Loving Authority which expresses itself in our Group Conscience? If so, how do we make the 'best' of it? Do you believe that "We" might be able to turn sociology into a viable, respectable, useful service to humankind through our "work?" Probably not - but if we don't try then surely we won't! And if we don't work together and do the work of learning how to work together - then like physical/chemical waves that are out of sync - we will merely cancel each other out! Just Food for thought. Frances When the terrain and the map do not agree, believe the terrain. (Is that an "earth mother perspective" or a male military maxim??) PS - In one of my earlier posts I suggested various possibilities for our Socgrad god. Dan (Erving) Ryan was my first choice. No one responded. How about if we let him serve as a role-model for an icon? Pope, maybe? From a.ruth@cqu.edu.au Sat Aug 1 20:48:38 1998 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 12:47:52 +0000 From: Alison Ruth To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: A totally amazing voice from the edge To highlight just how strange it is to be on the other side of the world (and a misfit to boot), I thought 8 and pea. Frances has suggested that there wouldn't be too many 8's but it was one of the numbers used in the calculations. As for the pea, well both pea and six have three letters, is that relevant? As to type I and type II errors, maybe it's a type III error - asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be - who cares? Well obviously most of us do or why do graduate studies (in this neck of the woods, we call it post-grad studies, doing it by mail maybe?). Being a scientist who has move into the sociology of education (is that term acceptable?) I sometimes have no idea what you're talking about. But then I sometimes have no idea what *I* am talking about (and that was while I was doing science, have I any hope doing PhD studies in education?). I think I will gracefully withdraw from this now and consult my several dictionaries for terms I have not heard before. Thank you for the input to my growing knowledge of sociology. :) Alison ----------------------------------------- Alison Ruth a.ruth@cqu.edu.au Faculty of Informatics and Communication/ Faculty of Education and Creative Arts/ Bundaberg District Postgraduate Research Student Association Bundaberg Campus Central Queensland University University Drive Bundaberg 4670 (07) 4150 7039 ----------------------------------------- From tombrown@jhu.edu Sat Aug 1 22:26:33 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 00:26:06 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: A totally amazing voice from the edge To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu "Who cares?" is a perfectly reasonable response. It's my response to at least half of the sociology I read, or even more. From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sat Aug 1 22:32:57 1998 Date: Sat, 01 Aug 98 22:47:31 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Type III error To: socgrad In-Reply-To: <35C45FF3.4F0FD009@cqu.edu.au> Oh, WOW - Thanks, Alison! (This post is not as long as it looks) I had 'forgotten' about Type III errors - William R. Catton, Jr identified a Type III Error as Obscuring a more profound problem by preoccupation with a lesser issue. My reference for this comes from a special essay by Dennis Peck. The article was Science as Process, Social Change, and the Discipline: An Editor's Perspective. (Sociological Inquiry, Vol. 64, No. 1, February 1994) The Catton ref is 1989 "Choosing Which Danger to Risk." in Society 27:6-8. Dennis raises the question of asking ourselves "So What?" as part of the Process of Science. Here is a quote from the last paragraph: "Sociologists are quite capable of responding to the question "So what?" Provided that we maintain an appropriate focus on what we do, think of how these activities relate to social needs, and become actively involved in the construction of a better world community, representatives of the discipline will earn greater acceptance. In this context, the question "So what?" rises above the concerns of one editor, whose intent in raising this question has been to sensitize authors to the fact that their work should hold a certain social relevance and that theory or data should not be reported as somehow being self-evident to the reader. Rather, we should invoke the sociological imagination and impose the power of accurate and precise writing in this work, striving always to enhance the usefulness of sociological inquiry as well as the social and cultural diversity of the world community through action as well as discussion." >To highlight just how strange it is to be on the other side of the world (and > a misfit to boot), I picked 8 and pea. Frances ggested that there >wouldn't be too many 8's but it was one of the numbers used in the >calculations. As for the pea, well both pea and six have three letters, is >that relevant? > Ahh - but how can one be a misfit among misfits? A marginal among marginals? My "number 8" suggestion was but a 'musing' conjecture - not a formal or even informal hypothesis. Figure eights and peas are nice and round and balanced - and Who Knows - What do YOU think it means to you!? >As to type I and type II errors, maybe it's a type III error - asking the >wrong question. Maybe the question should be - who cares? During my first year of grad school I had worked at a Domestic Violence shelter which treated the clients rather - well - with less than human dignity -- I tried in a number of ways to correct some of the situations from 'inside.' Nothing worked and I finally had to quit. The night before I quit - I told the residents. They were very upset and one said, "But, Frances, If you leave what will happen to us? You are the only one who cares!" I answered that there really others who were trying to care - but they didn't know how and as long as I was there, then the people who could do something about the situation were too busy focusing on ME as THE problem. Within days after I left other staff members started saying, "Gee! Frances was right!" It still took several months for the severity of the problems to get to "management" and for them to take action. That didn't make me feel any better. So much more could have been done and in a MUCH more constructive manner! And while the new people were not as "destructive" as the previous supervisors - they still were not "constructive." At the end of a course in Collective Behavior which was taught by a rather linear thinker, I attached the following poem to a paper entitled "The Bonds of Community." It is entitled "Who Cares?" and is an answer to Jeanette's Question. Who Cares? Who Dares? I do! So can you. Lonely Duck, Out of Luck? Weeping Willow tree, Don't cry for me. Theta Pond, (This poem was written by Theta Pond on A Magic Wand. the Oklahoma State University campus in Calming Waters, Stillwater, OK - complete with ducks and Sons and Daughters. willow trees.) Firm Gentle touch, Heals so much. Society's rarity, God's Charity. Not Just alone To break hearts of stone. Hearts can mend, Softened by the wind. Sociology of Time and Place Serendipity of Love and Grace. May you find Your Peace of Mind. >Faculty of Education and Creative Arts/ >----------------------------------------- Reminds of another poem - that ended Oh, to focus on the ministry, And Feel the Beauty of the chemistry! I had a chemistry prof who was explaining a theory and this usually very robot-like man became more and more animated - in the middle of the lecture he said - "The beauty of this theory is ..." If a chemistry professor, professes 'beauty', without expecting his students to fully agree with him as to this'value,' the perhaps sociologists are able to do the same. From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 2 04:44:46 1998 (usr-mtp-33.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.33]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:41:14 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing Laura: I have absolutely no idea of what it means to respond with either carrot, pea, eggplant or palm tree...I once took a course in freudian psych with Gardner Lindzey...and know a bit about urworte, depth psychology and libidinal impulses...and assign them a truth value of about 2.1 on a scale of 10...but all truth involving human beings has a fractal value and can explode once in a while to nearly 1.00---in this case, I am willing to suspend dis-belief...for a while...until someone gives me a reasonable explanation; 'til then, I can live with doubt and in ignorance. Trust all is well with you down there in the silver country, best, TR At 12:46 PM 8/1/98 -0600, you wrote: >Tr, >Actually amazing! I thought of a "7" in the first one. But I thought of an >small indoor palm tree in the second... What does that mean? >LAURA > > >At 06:42 01/08/1998 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>I have a friend who works for Lockheed; he tests supersecret planes >>for the AirForce...having little to do between test flights, he sends >>me humor and on occasion, odd little tests like the one below. >> >>I am seldom astonished, amazed or befuddled...but this one got to me. >>I wouldn't send it to just anybody but I think grad students are >>bright enough and curious enough to help me understand what happened... >>if anyone can, the prize is a free cup of coffee. >> >> TR >> >> ********************** >> Jedi Mind Trick >> >> This little Jedi mind trick is kinda freaky, till you think about >> it a little while. >> >>Then it's even more weird. Just follow the instructions below: >> >> DON'T scroll down too fast-do it slowly and follow the instructions >> below exactly, do the math in your head as fast as you can. >> >> It may help to say the answers aloud quietly. >> >> >> FOLLOW these instructions one at a time and as QUICKLY as you >> can! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What is: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2+2? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4+4? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 8+8? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 16+16? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quick! Pick a number between 12 and 5. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Got it? >> >> >> >> >> Now scroll down... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The number you picked was 7, right? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Isn't that weird??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Free will or synaptic wiring? You be the judge. >> Check out the following exercise, guaranteed to freak you >> out. >> There's no trick or surprise. Just follow these >> instructions, and >> answer >> the questions one at a time and as quickly as you can! >> Again, as quickly as you can but don't advance until you've >> done >> each >> of >> them...really. Now, ARROW down (but not too fast, you might >> miss >> something)......... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What is: >> 1+5 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2+4 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 3+3 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 4+2 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 5+1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Now repeat saying the number 6 to yourself as fast as you can >> for 15 >> seconds. >> Then scroll down. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> QUICK!!! THINK OF A VEGETABLE! Then arrow down. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Keep going. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> You're thinking of a carrot right? >> >> If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose >> minds arewarped enough to think of something else. >> >>98% of people will answer with carrot when given this exercise. >> >> >> >>TR Young, 8085 Essex >>Weidman, Mi., 48893 >>Email: tr@tryoung.com >> >> > > > > > > ___ > _.-| | |\__/,| (`\ >{ | | |o o |__ _) ) > "-.|___| _.( T ) ` / > .--'-`-. _((_ `^--' /_< \ > .+|______|__.-||__)`-'(((/ (((/ > > >Laura Minen > >Universidad Nacional del Litoral >Santa Fe >Argentina > > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 2 04:45:55 1998 (usr-mtp-33.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.33]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:42:22 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Totally Amazing CB: You're probably the only healthy one among those of us who did the damn thing. best, TR At 03:36 PM 8/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >As I've suspected all along..... I am screwed up!!!! > >I picked 6 and corn...hum!? > > >Quapla' > >Chuck- > > >???????????????????????????????????????? >?? Charles M. Brown, Ph.D. Candidate ?? >?? Department of Sociology ?? "Understanding is a >?? Southern Illinois University ?? three-edged sword" >?? Carbondale, IL 62901 ?? Kosh Naranek >?? (618) 453-2494 ?? >?? e-mail (cbrown@siu.edu) ?? >?? http://www.siu.edu/~socio/chaz.htm ?? >???????????????????????????????????????? > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 2 04:48:18 1998 (usr-mtp-33.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.33]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:44:47 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing In-Reply-To: DD: from 100%, we've dropped to about 40% which still is a tendential push toward 7-ness and carrot-ness. ....but I've not heard from everyone on socgrad and don't intend to keep score...sometimes it's nice just to be surprized and delighted. most kindly, TR At 02:42 PM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > >TR: FYI, I picked 6 and cucumber, hmmm ... > > Is someone keeping track? (ever the social scientist) > > Denise D. > >On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 rb6553a@american.edu wrote: > >> TR: >> Your test was "only" half-amazing for me. I picked the number 6 in the >> first half, not 7 (which was kind of prescient, given that six was the >> subject of the second part. But, I did pick carrot. And I have absolutely >> no idea why. (I do happen to like carrots quite a bit). >> Robert A. Brooks >> >> > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 2 04:49:11 1998 (usr-mtp-33.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.33]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:45:37 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Totally Amazing In-Reply-To: <980801.180749.CDT.flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU> Francis: If anything is amazing, it is you! well done, TR At 03:45 PM 8/1/98 CDT, you wrote: > >The "Totally Amazing" exercise Just Goes to Show me - >Social forces act in mysterious, not malicious ways! > - A Haynesian Sociology derivative of social relativeity theory! > >(Hmmm - that is a twist and shout of Einstein's pronouncement that "God is >mysterious, not malicious.") > >I can give a qualitative "take" on this, but SuperDan, the Math Man, will >be in better position to "muse" over the complex organization of the Totally >amazing" phenomenon. I received this yesterday from an Aggie Former Student >in Madras. I considered forwarding it to this list. Thanks, tr, for sending >it. I am very looking forward to what Dan Ryan, Alan Davidson, and Pamela >(forgot your last name, sorry!) have to say about this. Alan, what do you >think Parsons would say!? I'm really looking forward to what Dr. Mestrovic >has to say, as well as, what he thinks Durkheim would say! > >Like tr, I was curious about the psychological and sociological aspects of the >phenomenon. I picked 7 on the first one, but Eggplant on the second one. >- although carrot and eggplant hit my mind nearly simultaneously - > - it didn't take much to determine that carrot was probably the answer of the >masses. > >I actually thought of Maroon Carrots - which I served at my oral prelims. (They >were developed here at A&M to improve beta-carotene content. They >are ugly and have required some strategic techniques in order to market!) > >Cross-culturally and historically, numbers have fairly consistent meaning. >Here is some of what I have been told or read. The number 5 is the number of >life. It does not occur natually in inanimate objects. The number 7 is >the number for heaven and the number 12 is the perfect number - seen >frequently in astrology, # of months, etc. 7 equals 4 (death) plus 3 (god) >and 12 is 4 Times 3. > >I thought it was interesting that >we were asked to choose a number between 12 and 5 rather than vice versa - >from large to smaller rather than small to larger. > >The second one, everything adds up to the number of man - 6. Christians are >NOT the only group of people who believe that the number 666 represents an >antithesis to "good." The number re-presents, somehow, the essence of >"anti-ness." The number 666 is additive, while the powers of good are >multiplicative and exponential. Muslims and some non-specific numerologists >have the same understanding of the number. (I really am trying to avoid the >word "belief" here, after that last controversy!) > >Delving further into the "order" of the other numbers and then venturing into >some socionumeric theories as well as some sociovegetative theories, we could >probably enhance (or enchant) our understanding of the phenomenon. For example, >what about the logical vs. numeric differences in multiplying by one which >still equals one, but when two people marry they are intended to become a >greater ONE than either could be seperately. They each bring their individual >oneness - and - hopefully, - become 'more' bigger, brighter, than what they >would be 'alone' i.e. it becomes 1 X 1 > than 1+1 - even though-mathematically > 1X1=1 and 1+1=2. The same goes with dividing with zero - mathematically the >process has no meaning, can't be done and if we multiply by zero, all goes to >nothing. Is there a human, lived corrollary to these? What about dividing >by One - is that where "we" each get conquered? (Just Musing - Folks!) (Hope >you find this amusing, or perhaps a little bemusing - but please, believe me, >it is NOT "assuming"!) > >What does this mean? Never in several millenia, much less this fin de millenia > would I dare to attempt to answer such a question - for me or for any one of >you, or for the collectivity! tr asked us to contribute to understanding, >what was it-a free cup of coffee if we could explain it. Well, my Bachelor's >degree in sociology and a buck will get my own coffee. My PhD and a buck will >get me that same cup of coffee - but the only answer my sociology gives me to >this enigma is There are forces - social or otherwise - which act on social >beings in patterned but unpredictable ways. Perhaps there is more to >be learned from those who are in the 3rd standard deviation from the mean >than from the conformists - what are similarities and differences in the >social conditions and psyches of the outliers - >(uhh - for you non-quant types - that means roughly the outer 2% of a >statistical test.) As sociologist we see that this is a one-tailed test >because either you answered with the "norm" of 7 and carrot or you did not. >There were four total options 7 and carrot; 7 and other; other and carrot; or >other and other. Out of the 'deviants' what is the distribution of deviant >on 1, deviant on the second and deviant on both? > >These possibilities move us out of the +X, +Y model of 20th century soc and >into using the other quadrants of basic algebra, i.e. Quadrant II -X, +Y; >Quadrant III -X,-Y, and Quadrant IV +X, -Y. PLUS it means adding a Z axis > - AND moving the Zero Point in time and space - And Factor Analysis just >barely begins to "grab" it - not only that - the BASIC ASSUMPTIONS of >nominal level data have been violated - many of the things we study are not, >and never were mutually exclusive and exhaustive. Plus one cause may create >multiple effects and several causes may have similar effects. And if you don't >have a clue about what I'm talking about, you won't get very far in 21st >century sociology! Cause the up and comers at your back are going to huff and >puff (no, they are going to sneeze) and blow your social structures made out >of toothpicks and dominoes all down in a row! I am REALLY glad that Civil >Engineers do not build and study civil structures like sociologists do! > >Since soc grad students are marginals among marginals, I would hypothesize that > we are statistically different "on-the-average" from the general population. >This could be measured by our responses to the "Totally Amazing" phenomenon! >Qualitatively, we will probably come up with some really "weird" combinations. >(Has anyone come up with 11? I would expect quite a few 6's and a few of the >others, Somehow I don't expect many 8's - don't know about 9's and 10's.) >Really seems ironic in our "digital" society!!! (that's ten, i.e. the #10 >base system - get the point - [[ugh, bad puns, Frances!}} > > >In previous writing, tr has written, "There is No God." "Trust me." >Now he is asking for us to explain this and someone writes back and asks him >what it means. My response is quizzical also. What does the "red feather" in >Peter Pan's hat 'mean?' What happened to the 'lost boys'-(not children) in >Never-never land? Is confronting the reality of a situation and redefining a >situation any less real in its consequences than another definition of the >situation? Who creates the definition? Where does it lead? Did the children >ask the Pied Piper where he was leading them? Oops switched fairy tales and >stories - but not the author's meaning - the reader is still free to choose. >I am NOT seeking answers to these questions, merely musing. > >A while back I posted a long response to >a discussion about "them" re-categorizing "our" discipline. A process by >Library of Congress which will cost mega-bucks to re-catalog - may not be >what "we" think of our discipline and may subjugate us within the confines that >we once tried to extricate ourselves from (i.e. psych and literature and >history), I reflected on the process of social control by "them," how "we" >have an obligation to study issues at deeper levels and multitude of meanings, >quantitAtive and qualitative, as well as importance, intensity, etc. I >reflected that Spencer cautioned us about "Contempt before investigation" AND >that some of my most constricting professors were the most dogmatically >atheistic, while those who professed a variety of faiths, Sikh, Muslim, >Christian, Unitarian, Jewish, Hindu - allowed me to find my own level. Although >they were clear about their values, they never imposed them on me. The >atheist did. > >In that post I asked if I deserve the same respect that others expect me to >give - even though I am white, female, old, Christian, straight and A Texas >Aggie. Texas A&M is rated in the reputation, prestige polls at around 50 in >sociology - not bad. I have professors from the "best" schools - some of these > profs are the epitome - best of the best - in living the three-fold mission >of an academician - they are educators, researchers and leaders in social >service. Others are not. This school and department were the "right" one for >me, although not very many people would even begin to be as appreciative of >the gold nuggets I mined here. From the Academic Building, I look at Rudder >Tower - named for a man of vision, integrity and dignity - a man who led >225 hand-picked and specially trained men through a situation where few would >dare to go - only 90 lived to tell the tale of there part in the Normandy >Invasion and D-Day - But they did it so others could live, and live freely. >Freedom, folks -- Freedom to argue over whether To "Believe It or Not" and >even, Freedom to say that when "believe" is the verb in the sentence, the >sentence is not about belief - BUT saying that someone or someones are >Artifically Stupid because of their beliefs HAS CROSSED THE LINE and REMOVED >a FREEDOM FROM SOMEONE ELSE - Your freedom to swing your arm, ends at mine or >someone else's nose! Those mostly white men who died at Normandy did not die >for WHITE MEN to be free - and Earl Rudder carried forward with that! The >Aggie's who held Muster on April 21 on Corregidor during WWII were fighting >for Freedom and Justice for ALL - Red, Yellow, Black and White, rich and poor, >male and female - and for the RIGHT AS WELL AS THE RESPONSIBILITY for to >provided Equal Opportunity - NOT Equality - to the best of the best! > >They fought, died AND LIVED - for the right for Dat Ngyuen, Dante Hall, >Frances Haynes, Susan Alexander, Clement Glenn, Amy Kardell, JuChuan Wang, AND >Blake McKinney, Brandon Neff, Sam Bluntzer, Brandon Stewart - etc-to Dare to be >Different - to dare to learn what it means to be among the 96-98% of the >Two-Percenters of the World!!! > >The bottom line on the "little trick" is that numbers do have a qualitative >effect on people. A qualitative effect which can be quantitatively observed, >although we do not know "why?" or what "it means." All I will say is >DO NOT TRUST ME!! Question me, question my perspectives, but do so with >respect for the ideas, not by tossing around a lot of Analytical BS. And yes >I got in BIG TROUBLE once upon a time for referring to a soc course as >Analytical BS 101. Damn, the truth hurts - the essence of sarcasm - but it was >an unprofessional thing to do and say. Since then, I refer to the experience >but not the specifics. The lesson and principle, not the personality or >the teacher. > >I'll joke, cut up, toss around ideas with the best of 'em. I'll seriously, but >lightly send posts which are so FULL of postmodern, theory to practice, Marx, >Durkheim, and Chaos theory that I can hardly count all of the plays on words, >ideas, and theories which were incorporated in less than 50 lines and the >ONLY public response is "Hunh!" In one short post, I used names on this >list to show that "we" (the participants - active as well as unseen observers) >re-present events in the New Testament - even the names - Matthew, Andrew, >Peter, Phillip, James, John, Thomas (AND do the "Thomas's" do a remarkable >job in their Doubting Twin Role!) Who is the "Christ?" Who is the "Judas?" >Sociology Graduate Students - How Do WE Re-Present our archetypes and what do >we do with our knowledge and understanding? In re-jecting them, do we somehow >re-create a shadowed side of what we detest? Questions worth asking! It is >called Reflexive Sociology - a la Gouldner & Bourdieu! WHO ARE "WE"? What >do "we" want to be?" Where are "we" going? Is this the ONLY way to get there? > >It is VERY easy to debunk something with which we disagree - it is not so >easy to learn "why" something works! Or if it works to "our" (meaning the >Universe) good! I believe - that All things work together for good for them >that love GOD and are called according to his purpose. I also believe that >includes ME, and Each of YOU, AND US - because we are all in this together. > >With or without "belief" in the divinity of a "bible", there are sociological >lessons in the humanity of the stories - some of you might want to read them >for yourselves. Try the Quiran or Book of Mormon if you think you know all >about the Torah. For a really good laugh - pick up the Books of the Apocrypha >and read Tobit! For a GREAT romance - try Song of Solomon - even in 'the >good ole boy' version that authorized by Jimmy while he was King of England - >that book can get the hormones a twitching. So can the love letter from John >to "somebody" which is listed as 2nd John in the New Testatment. > >Then the "Good News" books and letters from some early Jesus groupies, have >some interesting lessons about life. And Revelations - WOW - what a >scifi trip - out of body experience and all! Did you know the word Chernobyl >translates from Russian to English as Wormwood? Did Phillip really get jerked >up physically after he baptized the Eunuch? Is truth stranger than fiction? >My Sunday School teachers used to insist that the Bible is literal - except for >'this' or maybe 'that' - Now, I'm reading it for myself - fascinating! > > Maybe the only problem with Christianity is not that it has >been tried and found lacking, but maybe it hasn't been tried! (Okay - that >last line is not original - it's copycat - and I think I remember where I >'snatched' it, but best not to go into that now! Suffice it to say, Meow! >Or perhaps, "Squawk - Squawk - Squawk" The sound of the White Peafowl - They >are better than watchdogs - doesn't take much to keep them, they watch out for >and protect the barnyard, and squawk loud and shrill when something disturbs >them. (From the movie Midnight Express - the warden in the Turkish prison) > >******** > >Well, I DID IT!! Been trying to write THAT piece of my dissertation for several >weeks! Couldn't find the 'handle!' > >Frances LeAnne Haynes >A Texas "Aggie from Muskogee" Oklahoma USA > >aka WindEye, the White Peafowl >Just Breezin' around with >a different bird's eye view! >Flying loose and low to the ground! >Including a different 'spin' on sociobiology! > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 2 04:52:43 1998 (usr-mtp-33.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.33]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:49:11 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: re Totally Amazing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980801183450.006997cc@pop.srv.ualberta.ca> Lori: Why do both men and women pick carrot?? Penis envy and castration complexes are good freudian analyses but I rather like the fact that, from different countries, we're getting different veggies...besides, all the carrots I've seen lately are tiny, tiny ones...those of us with doubts about our essential masculinity tend to like long rifles, racing cars and fat cigars. Yrs in a freudian fog, TR At 06:34 PM 8/1/98 -0600, you wrote: >I would imagine that the reason most people come up with the word 'carrot' >is because it has six letters (repeat 'six' for 15 seconds) and it is a >common vegetable in North America. I would be interested in seeing the >response in other countries where the carrot is not a common vegetable. > > >Lori Wilkinson > >Department of Sociology and >Prairie Centre of Excellence for >Research on Immigration and Integration >1-17 Humanities Centre >University of Alberta >Edmonton, Alberta >CANADA T6G 2E5 > >Office phone: 403-492-9536 >Messages: 403-492-6600 >Fax: 403-492-2594 > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sun Aug 2 14:29:28 1998 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 13:49:02 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: What's in a name? To: socgrad In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980802064537.00919880@tryoung.com> Caveat - Even if NO One reads the massive amounts that this Old Geyser has spewed this week-end, it has served a purpose beyond words - it includes some MAJOR work on my dissertation. Of course, I still have to close the "I's". and otherwise, professionalize and integrate the puzzle pieces! Thank, God, for a committee that assurred me that it is THEIR job to tell me when I am being redundant, unclear, and "too personal!" Wow - you mean I don't have to do this perfect and all by myself! Wish I had learned that in grade school instead of grad school! Frances TR, Thanks for the compliment/complement. But, in deed, I need to say in word something about the spelling of my name. Sometimes tricks of the trade help us remember what to do when we are in doubt- Since much of our trade is stock in words -(or is our stock in trade words,) A few social and linguistic guidelines may be applied to remember how to spell my name. 1. Use "E" for 'her' and "I" for 'him' when spelling the English word for Freedom! Frances of Rome, Frances Cabrini, Francis of Assisi, Francis de Sales, and Francis Xavier (THEY are saints-NOT me- A Saint, I AIN'T - and I am no 'wannabe saint either - had enough hell on this earth already - The LEAST of which was gradschool!) 2. From grade school (Does that 'silent e' make a real difference or just a rhetorical device?) - I before E except after C - and a Gentleman lets a Lady go first. She is Frances, He is Francis. Or as they used to say about Fran Tarkington - FranTastic! Occasionally someone will shorten my name, and my response varies according to who they are and how they say it. There are a few people who continue to call me things other than my full name, even though I have made repeated requests. Guess what - I have no more respect for them than they do of me! I may even have less respect, but I still try to treat them with dignity. If you choose to use a gender interactionist perspective try "France/is." However, do not 'neutralize' the name. I may have strong talents in areas that are traditionally masculine (math, analytics, 'figuring things out') but I LIKE BEING A GIRL - The best job I ever did was "Mom!" and "Wife." I quit one and my punishment was to be fired from the other - Why? Because I was in grad school and had been on welfare while their father was making $40 grand a year and paying $450/month child support for 3 kids? Because I couldn't prove in a court of law that I was a perfect mother!? Because a 7 year old child stole some baseball cards at the convenience store and his Dad didn't remember during his alcoholic black-outs that we had talked three different times about what became "The SHOPLIFTING INCIDENT!" Was it blackout or did he out and out lie? Who am I to judge, I only know that the threat which I had heard for 19 years came true! I left him. He tried to take the kids where I would never see them again. He nearly succeeded - in a legally illegal manner! What could I do, What did I do? I knew that the only way I could help my children was to keep doing the best I could to let them know that I love them, and God loves them. I needed to lead them by example. How could I use the talents God gave me which I had use to get into this mess? The answer was in letting God use those self- same talents to get me out of the mess! That was the only way I could help them learn to help themselves. My name is Frances LeAnne Haynes (Once upon a time it was Fran Anderson-but for those 19 years, 6 months and 9 days, I was but a shadow of my whole self.) Frances means literally Freedom or Out of France - I do not know whether that insinuates that "freedom comes out of france" or whether it means that one is "free when you get out of France." The name/word has universal connotations. In Chinese, the pronunciation is nearly the same! In the dialect in Bejing it has four tones, while in Taiwan there are three. And as in other aspect of the Chinese language there are no gender distinctions. In the Latin based languages, the gender distinction is in the ending - anima/animus, Francisca/ Francisco, Franchesca/Franchesco. My middle name probably has a strong unspoken influence on "Who I am!" Along with the "Y" in Haynes, and the fact that my brothers are Franklin Leon, Fred LeRoy, and Floyd Lee - then no wonder and middle child wondered about the effect of 'names' on people. Did the name go in before the qualities developed or did the name 'fit' qualities that mom and dad had discerned while the child was in the womb? In other words - the label a person receives at birth IS a sociological label. I will cease and desist from my ramblings about 'labelling' except to say that because I AM FREE - I realize that this freedom has a burden of strength! The Right to BE FREE, comes with a RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN what that freedom means, how to protect - It did not come about freely, there were great costs. Freedom is much easier and cheaper to lose than to gain, but the costs in the long run may be some really stiff consequences. Back to the gender aspects of life and living. I am pro-marriage! Pro-bible- Yeah - wives submit yourselves unto your husbands AS HE SUBMITS HIMSELF TO CHRIST! Ooohhhh, you mean there was MORE to that sentence. Yeah - - and there is still MORE - He loves His Wife as Himself - Ooohhh - not more than, not less than, and if he respects and cherishes and cares for himself he will do the same for her - and she in return reverances Her Husband. Gee - like the "Ye' old The-Husband-is-King-o'-The-Castle" thing means that he will be King if he treats his wife like a Queen! (NOW, you got it!) Does that mean that the Husband does NOT have the right to order his wife around like a slave - The husband 'serves' the family? Like washing their feet and letting others wash his and not letting anyone make fun of the footwasher (or Shoeshine Boy!) **** oops - that tangent had a tangent - I told you there is a lot of sociology in the Bible. For an easier to read Soc Text, read the Book of Mormon.*** The part of me that likes being female and likes the ways that men and women assist one another in life and living - well to put it bluntly - in that regard I am a "nun." That is, I ain't had none in a long time, ain't gonna get none just for the sake of getting some, which means it looks like it will be none too soon before I get some. Sex is a form of communication. The very first communication of animal form -- sometime around midnight, 12/31/48-01/01/49 - my parents communicated in such a manner. For my parents the communication was of the 'highest order' - an expression of their base physical nature; an expression of their psychological need to touch and be touched; an expression of their social needs to care for and be cared for; AND a committed expression of their awareness that God had brought them together. AND they were willing to accept the consequences of their decisions and actions. Even when sex is purely a physical, just for the moment, isn't this great, you came and I came and never the twain shall meet again - It IS STILL a form of communication! Just because a physical body is 'ready' to engage in such behavior, does that mean that the psychological and social aspects of the person (decision-maker) are capable of comprehending the consequences of the behavior. Two cells of human tissue may be easier to dispose of than AIDS, or Herpes, or PID, or the tear in human psyche of wondering whether the other communicator even heard 'anything' you said or did you 'hear' what they were telling you. Kinda empty. Was it worth it? Have you ever heard of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome - It's real, in all of its consequences - any way that the situation was defined in the moment - there is a ripple in the pond. I hope it doesn't turn into a tidal wave. So, back to the numbers and vegetables - we have incorporated a little BioSociology, SocioArithmetics and put our Veggies on the Table! We are gonna have a Feast at the Carnival! But those of you who have not seen much of me since the one in NYC, well- there isn't that much to see -- you may wonder what I did with the rest of me - after all there is about 1/3 less than there was then! (I weigh 130# now.) Therefore you will have to get a new Fat Lady - but I hope we get one who can sing this time! Then we will know when the opera is over! (And I didn't do it by cutting out the fat - although I did INCREASE the veggies!) Still does not look like I can make it to San Francisco -- (Boo-Hoo, sniff, sniff, cry, cry!!!) Unless somebody can loan me 200 to 500 bucks - I'll stay at IYH, and travel by bus and buy my food at the grocery store and can go REALLY Inexpensively - BUT NOT CHEAP! I may be Free, but I AIN't Easy! Luv Y'all, Frances On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:45:37 -0400 T R Young said: > >Francis: If anything is amazing, it is you! > > well done, TR > >At 03:45 PM 8/1/98 CDT, you wrote: >> >>The "Totally Amazing" exercise Just Goes to Show me - >>Social forces act in mysterious, not malicious ways! >> - A Haynesian Sociology derivative of social relativeity theory! >> >>(Hmmm - that is a twist and shout of Einstein's pronouncement that "God is >>mysterious, not malicious.") >> From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sun Aug 2 16:42:39 1998 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 17:04:42 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing To: socgrad Cm - not odd at all, me lassie/laddie! Not in the land where the corn grows as High as an Elephant's eye! Where the first land rush was into No-Man's Land in 1889. Of course, 4 later rushes were into land where Red People had always lived or into land that had been given to Red People by White People. (What is the meaning of the phrase "Indian Giver?" Who gives and takes away?) In the land where White Men tightened their threats in 1989? A place where the Agricultural and Mechanical roots that produce various outcomes across good, bad, and beautiful and ugly spectrum! The land of Cowboy Culture and the Orange and The Black. I would say the odds were quite even that you would choose 9 and corn! If I had been in Stillwater (Psalm 23 School of CyberGogic Social Theory), I probably would have chosen 9 also. 6+3 or 3X3? Good & Evil? I probably would have thought of turnip! But that is a Land Rush story about the hardships of those first settlers! During the first two years, turnips were the only that would grow - so that is what the cattle ate also - EVERYTHING tasted like turnips - the beef, the milk, and of course, the turnips! (Makes my mouth dry and my nose 'turn up' just thinking about it! In 1889, the Papal Encyclical "Rerum Novarum" (Of New Things!) was published. The essay was a forerunner in the same line of thinking as Ogburn's Cultural- Technical Lag Theory and caveat. The encyclical was highlighted during the 100th years anniversary in 1989. In a land that tells us CORN is a vegetable when it is a grain, maybe there is some sociology of food and nutrition in this discussion also! Something about definitions of the situation, who constructs the definitions and what are possible realities of the consequences? Not connected to the words of Pope Leo or Ogborn - although the mechanical can outstrip the land and culture - I LOVE these kind of Aeropagus Talks - that is - when Paul (New Testament, Saul, conversion, etc) went to Athens there was a place where the Athenians and the Foreigners did Nothing but Speak of New Things! Aaaaahhhh - AWE - Sociology of Time and Place, Serendipity of Love and Grace! Frances On Sat, 01 Aug 1998 14:48:03 -0600 said: > > I chose 9 and corn. always have been a little odd, I guess > > Cm > >________________________ÿ 5F________ From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Sun Aug 2 17:41:10 1998 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:43:16 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980802064447.00901d80@tryoung.com> <85256653.005F1A0D.00@notes-gw.american.edu> At 06:44 AM 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >DD: from 100%, we've dropped to about 40% which still >is a tendential push toward 7-ness and carrot-ness. > >...but I've not heard from everyone on socgrad and don't >intend to keep score...sometimes it's nice just to be >surprized and delighted. > most kindly, TR And I would add that there are very good methodological reasons for not keeping score on this informal survey. I would bet "seven carrots" that the population of nonrespondents (those many folks who didn't report what number and vegetable they chose) is significantly different from the people who did tell us. It's not hard to see by the playful comments (i.e. Gee, I guess I really am different!) that the "socially desirable" response is to be different and to pick something other than carrots and 7's. Thus our data probably vastly underreports 7's and carrots, and overreports 4's, 9's, turnips and cucumbers. --Wayne Brekhus P.S. for the record I picked 9 and carrot. It's o.k. to be ordinary...carrot-pickers unite!! :) From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Aug 2 18:14:26 1998 From: Nogod1@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:14:14 EDT To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Amazing? How bored are all of we? If you truly want to try something, ask those questions without the litany of math questions preceding it. I am sure most people will answer 7 and carrot anyway. Grumpy in NY, vincent bruzzese From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Sun Aug 2 19:09:43 1998 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 98 20:05:31 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: WHO IS watching?... (fwd) To: socgrad Forwarded for the fun of it! Maybe it'll cheer ya' up a tad, vincent! Frances ***************** A burglar broke into a house one night. He shone his flashlight around, looking for valuables, and when he picked up a CD player to place in his sack, a strange, disembodied voice echoed from the dark saying, "Jesus is watching you". He nearly jumped out of his skin, clicked his flashlight off and froze. When he heard nothing more after a bit, he shook his head, promised himself a vacation after the next big score, then clicked the light back on and began searching more valuables. Just as he pulled the stereo out so he could disconnect the wires, clear as a bell he heard, "Jesus is watching you. " Totally rattled, he shone his light around frantically, looking for the source of the voice. Finally, in the corner of the room, his flashlight beam came to rest on a parrot. "Did you say that?" He hissed at the parrot. "Yes," the parrot confessed, then squawked, "I'm just trying to warn you. " The burglar relaxed. "Warn me, huh? Who do you think you are any way?" "Moses," Replied the bird. "Moses" the burglar laughed. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot 'Moses'?" The bird promptly answered: "The same kind of people that would name a Rottweiler 'Jesus'!" From lminen@unl.edu.ar Sun Aug 2 20:10:46 1998 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:10:35 -0600 (MDT) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Laura Minen Subject: Still talking about the "Amazing" thing. Dear TR, I'm doing fine. Hope you are too. Your friend's little game certainly gave us a lot to talk about... In the rush of saying "six" for fifteen seconds, I thought of a "vegetal" instead of a "vegetable". In Spanish, "vegetal" means any kind of plant. "Vegetables" are called "verdura". That's why I pictured a palm tree ( not that we eat them / we eat "palmitos", bananas and coconuts, though / like anywhere else in the world... ). I guess that kind of answer wasn't planned... Since Freud, it seems like any kind of mental association must be related to sex... Well, I think this a little bit old-fashioned. The high-tech world we live in, is generating lots of individuals who are much more concerned about efficiency, productivity and money, than they are about sex... Best regards from down south the planet, LAURA ___ _.-| | |\__/,| (`\ { | | |o o |__ _) ) "-.|___| _.( T ) ` / .--'-`-. _((_ `^--' /_< \ .+|______|__.-||__)`-'(((/ (((/ ( This e-mail is just an attemp to communicate ) Laura Minen Universidad Nacional del Litoral Santa Fe Argentina From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Aug 2 23:03:20 1998 From: Nogod1@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:03:03 EDT To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: WHO IS watching?... (fwd) Frances Thanks, cute joke. I am especially sensitive to the religious overtone. :-) I am under the impression that it is almost impossible to be a cheerful graduate student in a field that is losing sight of its ability to have any practical purpose in the world...but... In thought (the in denial of thought), vincent bruzzese From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 3 04:43:05 1998 (usr-mtp-14.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.14]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 06:39:37 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: What's in a name? In-Reply-To: <980802.152847.CDT.flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU> Frances: I knew I had mis-spelled your name the second I pushed the send key...sorry...your have a right to your name and your gender...enjoy both in good health. Second, you may want to contact Adam Flint who has a room to share at SF...not to worry about compromising implications...I've shared my room with both males and females without ever having a problem...there was a very funny episode once about which some day I will tell you but we always respected the privacy of each other in the room...always! Adam had room for two more in the Red Feather Room and may have another room for another night to share out. Contact him if you [or anyone] is interested: flint@igc.org finally, let me say how much I admire what you have done; my daughter-in-law, Ida did much the same thing after my son decided he liked booze better than his family. They had met at an AA thing; she was 16, he was 20...they married, had three kids and then he left her high and dry. She went to UNColo, got an LPN; worked a couple years; went back, got a RN and worked a couple years...two years ago, she fly to Rochester and was hired...over the last 8 years she has raised three kids by herself while beginning and finishing two nursing degrees...I think she is wonderful! I think you are wonderful! Well done, TR PS: Last year, she wrote my son at a VA hospital, invited him to come home...I'd like to say it turned out happily but this month, they had argument, he left to drink again; and she was furious...big sigh for such problems. TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 3 05:22:12 1998 (usr-mtp-14.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.14]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 07:18:39 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.Colorado.EDU From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Rhythms, Rhymes and Algorithms In-Reply-To: <5b9fca8b.35c3831c@aol.com> Vincent is quite correct: there are at least two, maybe three, psychological algorithms at work; which leads us to the number 7 [Sorry, Frances, no numerology necessary for this one]...The first one is easy; the second one is still a mystery to me! Someone had already mentioned random number algorithms...that got me thinking in the wee small hours of the morning... [for your info, an algorithm is a set of instructions...in Complexity/ Chaos theory, the concept of the algorithm replaces/displaces the concept of causality...very interesting phil/sci point buried in this amazing set of posts...very important; remember it!!!] Algorithms A1, A2: add a set of numbers to themselves: 2, 4, 8, 16. A3. Pick a number between 12 and 7 Explanation: A1. we are then asked to switch from an adding algorithm to a random choice algorithm. A2 We are still in a rhymic algorithm at a different level of functioning... We continue in the addition algorithm [A1] to do so; as Vincent said, somewhere in the depths of our psyche, we add 12 and 5 to get 17; 17 is a non-game event...subconsciously, we 'choose' '7'...amazing....or add 2 and 5 to get '7' or we add 1 and 7 for '8'; those of you who got '9' let your algorithm run amuck! For those of you who got '6', your algorithm changed from addition to subtraction...you subtracted '1' from '7' after you got the '7'... Algorithm B1. Add a set of numbers: 1,2,3,4,5 in such a way that the answer is always '6'... Repeat that answer for 15 seconds...or about 45 times... B2. think of a vegetable. Explanation: I have none but, tonight, while I am sleeping, the answer will slide into my soul...also amazing... The first answer came to me in the middle of the night...while half- asleep...then, still half asleep, I remembered a verse of a poem from my college prose and poetry class [about which I had not thought since the class ended]so...speaking of rhythms and algoritms, here is a rhyme from the Ancient Mariner which followed close upon the dreamtime solution above: O Sleep, it is a bless'ed thing Beloved from pole to pole To Mary Queen, The praise be given She slid the sleep into my soul. ...I can't recall the name of the author...yet! Yrs for synaptic serendipity, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 3 05:55:28 1998 (usr-mtp-55.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.55]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 07:51:57 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Mentoring and the Mentor's Song "Stanley Saxton" , PaulChassy , Wendell Ott , HELEN N CHANG , Heidi Allene Henrickson , dlanger@zoo.uvm.edu On Mentoring: There were two or three people whom I liked and admired in grad school at U/Mich/AnnArbor: Gerry Lenski, Tad Blalock and Horace Miner where helpful at crucial moments but they were not mentors for me in any sense. It was very different at U/Colorado. Blaine Mercer, Jud Pearson and that wonderful teacher, Howard Higman were my mentors...then too, Rene' Koenig sort of adopted me on his two visits to the States. Lyle Shannon at U/Iowa also visited Boulder, taught me, and gave me help over the years...that's what a mentor does...s/he helps students long after they've left the classroom...left the university. I have been lucky enough to have grad and undergrad students who have sorta adopted me as mentor; they continue to brighten my life: Heidi H. from TWU; Ted M. from CSU; Jerry Dedmon and a dozen others have, over the past 25 years, remained close to my heart. David Langer, who took a course with me at U/Vermont two winters ago, continues to work with me. For those of you who will, one day, serve as mentor, I have a song which you can use for whatever inspiration it might bring.. ....Now apart from my dear wife, Dorothy and my five children, no one has ever heard me sing...so do bear with me...I give you the song and the good advice out of the love I bear all those students, grad and undergraduate, who have blessed me with their time, their attention and whatever small increase in knowledge and wisdom they might have picked up over the years... ....it takes a while to load...if you don't have a sound card and speaker now, you might want to save it for a time you do. all good love, Always, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From ppaxton@email.unc.edu Mon Aug 3 06:51:52 1998 Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:51:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Pamela Paxton To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: "c" is for carrot In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980803063937.0090a7d0@tryoung.com> One thing I noticed was that many of the "incorrect" answers began with "c"--corn and cucumber for example. Anybody know anything about the brain? Perhaps numbers and letters are often linked in some way... (Could be entirely random, of course.) Pam ps. 5 and apple--I'm frightened for my psyche! ****************************** Pamela Paxton Department of Sociology University of North Carolina CB#3210, Hamilton Hall Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 email: ppaxton@email.unc.edu ****************************** From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Mon Aug 3 09:04:43 1998 Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 09:44:26 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: "c" is for carrot To: socgrad In-Reply-To: GREAT ANSWER, PAM!!! WHOOP!!! Beat them odds! Challenge the status quo of the question! (It said pick a number between 12 and 5, but did not give instructions as to whether or not those perimeters were included or exclusive! Apple! The traditional interpretation of the Garden of Eden story is that Eve picked an apple from the Tree of Knowledge. That was the Only Forbidden Fruit - But what historical theologians miss is this: God didn't want to keep knowledge for himself - but HE knew the BURDEN that comes with KNOWING!! With each level of knowledge and understanding we attain, we also attain new levels of responsibility for ourselves AND our fellow humans! Think about the quote at the bottom of Chuck Brown's posts - Understanding is a 3-edged sword! Like ANY tool or weapon - do we use it Constructively or Destructively - When we deconstruct something - as we are doing with the number/plant Maze - Knowledge and understanding are exponential - the sharing of ideas generates MUCH more - We have had input about other languages, cultures, mathematics, logic, philosophy, the despair over our discipline - MOre than one sociology 'old'-timer' has cautioned me to keep at least one foot OUT of the grave which sociology (US especially) has dug for itself! (BTW, one of those old-timers is biologically younger than I am!) One of the Masters and Geniuses of this discipline told me in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS TO "GET OUT" of sociology if it was not too late! He said that everything that sociology has contributed to academia and the world - SOME really outstanding theory and methodology has been usurped and siphoned off into management, criminal justice, sales & marketing, military strategy, politics, economics - BUT SOC does not get the credit AND once it was siphoned - even the basics were seperated and NOT used for SOCIETY as an entity! ARE we the Hub of the Wheel - or are WE grinding our wheels? The choices belong to the people on this list! This IS NOT theory anymore! WE ARE the sociologists of the NEW MILLENIA! Now, tell me In what do you place your trust? In one another? In our collective conscience and unconscience? Is it time to start doing the "WORK" of being disciplined!? For a clear and easy understanding of discipline, read M. Scott Peck's the "Road Less Travelled." (Remember, he was NOT a Christian when he wrote that book - in that book he was both teaching and learning!) In conclusion - the apple and women - because of the CHOICE that EVE made - She was not 'punished' but called to accept the consequences of her choice, both to look at how she was misled and betrayed by the serpent, how she got Adam to eat also, then tried to blame the serpent - BUT in the end she had, in deed, done the deal - Now she was called to accept the burden of the strengths she had gained through the whole ordeal! So, in light of other sharings you have posted here, Pamela, It seems you are fully willing to accept the responsibility of being a woman, a researcher, a teacher, a leader, and reaching for life to the fullest - WITH the rights and responsibilities! The 'c' idea is great, too. Frances On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Pamela Paxton said: >One thing I noticed was that many of the "incorrect" answers began with >"c"--corn and cucumber for example. Anybody know anything about the brain? >Perhaps numbers and letters are often linked in some way... >(Could be entirely random, of course.) > >Pam >ps. 5 and apple--I'm frightened for my psyche! > >****************************** >Pamela Paxton >Department of Sociology >University of North Carolina >CB#3210, Hamilton Hall >Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 > >email: ppaxton@email.unc.edu >****************************** > From tombrown@jhu.edu Mon Aug 3 09:58:48 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 11:58:13 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: WHO IS watching?... (fwd) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu >I am under the impression that it is almost impossible to be a cheerful >graduate student in a field that is losing sight of its ability to have any >practical purpose in the world...but.. Our practical purpose is to credential cops and prison guards. Now you can cheer up. From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Mon Aug 3 10:00:49 1998 Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 10:40:50 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Discipline is not punishment! To: socgrad Just an added note to my reply to Pamela Paxton's post. The Corps of Cadets here at Texas A&M has been going through some major overhauls. The pendulum had swung too far (again - as Forest Gump said about going to the White House and meeting the President!) The 'reasons' for some of the behaviors which sit at the line between harassement, dysfunction, etc alongside need, training, 'health' had gotten VERY BLURRED! I had opportunity to witness some of the 'outside' attempts to control, some of the 'inside' attempts to control, but most importantly I have witnessed the down in the trenches attempts at self-regulation! Most of these young people (yes, mostly men but a few good women!) are admirable beyond - well - belief! At Elephant Walk last fall - (yes, one of our 'traditions' which some sneer at and others accept unquestionably and change in an entropic manner without even realizing what they have done) - one of the LEADERS who has been in the middle of making some INCREDIBLY constructive changes had on a t-shirt which read: Discipline is training which does not require punishment! As more people learn that lesson - men and women - then society will benefit. Women learned (through Eve, either sociologically or archetypically, or ???, or didn't learn it) discipline! For themselves and their families! The 'bad' parts of patriarchy are NOT that patriarchy is 'bad' but that those at the top have such a difficult time understanding and discerning what is going on around them. They don't know how to listen - they are not listening now, perhaps they never will - When the women fit themselves blindly into the mold - the system is solidified!! Is patriarchy a 'parental system' or a 'father system?' Our language limits us sometimes! But the paradox is that A parental system works for the individual members of the family AND for the collectivity. A "father autocracy" restricts, limits, confines and may exact controlled, rigid, obedience to unquestionable authority. My belief system is a "parental system." Go into our storehouse of knowledge and discern what 'works' and 'why' and what doesn't and why - and help people learn how to be people. Amen - I'll shut up now and quit preaching, Mommin', etc. Love You'sguys (Sorry, that's all the YankeeSpeak I know!) I'm much more comfortable with I Luv Alluh Y'all out there in SocGradCyberLand - I wish we had more Down-unders, and others from places like Madras, Innsbruck, Taipei, Bejing etc! I KNOW there are Sociology Grad students in those places because I have met them! Frances From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Aug 3 12:41:45 1998 Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980802194316.00aa9350@email.rci.rutgers.edu> On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, wayne brekhus wrote: > At 06:44 AM 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > >DD: from 100%, we've dropped to about 40% which still > >is a tendential push toward 7-ness and carrot-ness. > > > >...but I've not heard from everyone on socgrad and don't > >intend to keep score...sometimes it's nice just to be > >surprized and delighted. > > most kindly, TR > > > And I would add that there are very good methodological reasons for not > keeping score on this informal survey. I would bet "seven carrots" that the > population of nonrespondents (those many folks who didn't report what > number and vegetable they chose) is significantly different from the people > who did tell us. It's not hard to see by the playful comments (i.e. Gee, I > guess I really am different!) that the "socially desirable" response is to > be different and to pick something other than carrots and 7's. Thus our > data probably vastly underreports 7's and carrots, and overreports 4's, > 9's, turnips and cucumbers. > > --Wayne Brekhus > > P.S. for the record I picked 9 and carrot. It's o.k. to be > ordinary...carrot-pickers unite!! :) > Then, of course, there are nonresponders like me who read a couple of lines of the original post, said "huh?," and hit the delete key... James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From lstampnitzky@hotmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:54:17 1998 X-Originating-IP: [166.55.78.59] From: "lisa stampnitzky" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Absolutely Amazing Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:54:12 PDT that was weird! made me think of those experiments done by Bourdieu where he asked people to associate various public figures with vegetables, I think it was. Lisa (carrot/7) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Aug 3 20:34:06 1998 Date: Mon, 03 Aug 98 22:32:39 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: [GR-L] Dept of the Year (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Model Dept.s' -- from a listserv I co-own -- at least for a few more weeks -- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:19:22 EDT Reply-To: UConn Graduate Student Issues Sender: UConn Graduate Student Issues From: Caroline Miner Subject: [GR-L] Dept of the Year To: GRDISU-L@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU I am on a Department of the Year award selection committee for the grad student section of the American Psychological Association. The letter from the winning department (University of Iowa) shows that they engage in many of the practices and policies that the GSS has been advocating for years. Also, the students are members of UE (United Electrical) which is the union we are considering. Dear APAGS Department of the Year review board: When one thinks of Iowa resources, products such as corn, hogs and an occasional major league pitcher may come to mind. Amidst the fertile fields, however, the classrooms and laboratories of Seashore Hall have produced more than their share of psychologists. Hailing from east and west, graduate students arrive in Iowa City to discover an environment blossoming with creativity and flourishing in opportunity. We'd like to present a glimpse at that department. To summarize our department in a few pages does not do it justice. For a bit of background, we are composed of about 30 full-time faculty members (70% of whom are APA members or fellows) and 58 on-campus doctoral level students (48% of whom are APAGS members or fellows), plus a smattering of adjunct and joint faculty. We study in five broad areas of psychology: behavioral and cognitive neuroscience, clinical psychology, cognition and perception, developmental psychology, and personality and social psychology; occupy five stories of Seashore Hall for office and classroom space; and enjoy the adjacent Spence Labs for laboratory space. Included in the building, and available for graduate student use, are a 54,000-volume psychology library with current subscriptions to all major journals in the field, and a staffed machine shop for building experimental props, an information technology consultant and university computer cluster, and an office with a range of office supplies, photocopying facilities, and a fax machine. To organize this letter, we will discuss four broad areas that we believe best characterize the life of a graduate student at the University of Iowa: financial resources, physical resources, program requirements, and faculty-student relationships. Before beginning, however, we emphasize one point. Most of the descriptions below did not grow out of nothingness. Hours of work by committees and individuals allow our department to function. And all committees in the department include both faculty members and student representatives. From the ethics committee to the general faculty meetings, graduate students voice their opinion on the issues facing the department. From planning social activities to hiring computer specialists, graduate students influence departmental activities. That said, a description follows of what makes psychology special in Iowa City. Financial Resources Many graduate students complain about their destitution. In the Iowa psychology department, however, graduate students are comfortable labeling themselves merely 'impoverished' rather than destitute. Upon admission to the program, students receive a letter guaranteeing departmental support for four years, including summers. Those students who make reasonable progress towards their degree are supported into their fifth and sixth years. Support comes from a variety of teaching and research positions. Several faculty members hold grants and hire graduate students to work under their supervision. Teaching assistants teach small discussion sections so that undergraduate students will be exposed not only to professors lecturing in large halls, but also to weekly interchanges with their classmates. Further, Iowa graduate students serve as departmentally-funded research assistants for junior faculty members who are beginning their careers. Graduate student teaching and research assistants in the psychology department work under the auspices of the newly formed labor union, UE Local 896. As union members, graduate students have bargained for annual increases in their wages and good benefits including a comprehensive health care package, standardized work hours, and vacation time. Also included in the contract is a comprehensive grievance procedure. Reflecting the good relationship between faculty and students in the Iowa psychology department no grievances have been filed - or even threatened - since the contract went into effect a year ago. Wages are not the only source of financial support for Iowa graduate students. To encourage students to present their research at professional conferences, students are awarded compensation to cover travel expenses when they are first authors on a presentation at any professional conference. Last year, 21 graduate students took advantage of this opportunity, accepting over $6000 in support from the Iowa psychology department. Graduate student work is regularly presented at national conferences, including APA's annual convention where 11 Iowa graduate students presented their research last August. Physical Resources As in most departments, we face limited space for the activities of a productive psychology department. Nonetheless, graduate students are a priority and are given their share of the limited space available in the department building. Other resources of the department are shared as well. Among the most salient sign of space prioritizing for graduate students is the current renovations on the fourth floor of Seashore Hall. A suite of offices to accommodate 27 graduate students is being created, along with a lounge to serve graduate students. The lounge, replacing the current lounge in Spence Laboratories, will include graduate student mailboxes, furniture, kitchen facilities (refrigerator, microwave, dining furniture), and a phone. As in the current, more cramped offices, the renovated offices will include desks, filing cabinets, bookshelves, and in some cases, telephones, for student use. Another of the favorite and best-utilized resources for Iowa graduate students is E-16. Although is boasts a rather dull name, E-16 is a room containing four computers, two laser printers, and a typewriter, all available solely for psychology graduate student use. During the day, E-16 is used primarily by students writing and responding to their e- mail. During the evenings and weekends, E-16 hosts students writing papers and analyzing data. Paper - both plain and department letterhead - is available for free use. The department computer consultants are available to aid frustrated students and to maintain the computers. Finally, the Judson S. Brown machine shop provides a unique resource for both graduate students and faculty. Two technicians and a full shop of tools and materials are available to help students build props for their research. Whether it be Skinner boxes for animal learning research, an electrical apparatus to record event-related brain potentials from the scalps of research participants, or dollhouses to assess children's spatial cognition, 'the shop' is available for student use during all working hours. Program Requirements In some departments, taking ten years to complete a Ph.D. is not unusual. But taking a decade to complete a Ph.D. in the psychology department at the University of Iowa has become quite rare with recent changes to program requirements. Spurred by Professor Gregg Oden, the Head of Graduate Studies, department requirements underwent a major overhaul beginning with students entering the program in 1995. Among the changes were a reduction of course requirements, removal of the master's thesis requirement, and improved student-faculty communication through the Research Advisory Committee (RAC) committee. Formation of the RAC is among the most significant changes that benefits students. Upon entering the program, students choose a mentor who will guide their coursework, research, and professional development. Unlike many programs, students are free to choose their own advisor rather than being admitted under the assumption that they will work with a particular faculty member. At Iowa, students are free to (and regularly do) change mentors as their research interests develop. Similarly, students are encouraged to (and regularly do) engage in research with more than one faculty member. Besides choosing a mentor, students also recruit two other faculty members to form their RAC. Each semester - or twice a year - students meet with their 3-member RAC. During the meeting, conversation revolves around research progress, academic issues, and professional development. Students experience the rare opportunity of spending an hour discussing their own ideas with three faculty members, often nationally known researchers in areas related to the student's own research interests. Faculty-Student Relationships Part of what makes special faculty-student relationships, of course, is not academic. Iowa's department is not lacking in the area of social events. Consider our annual September welcome party, graciously hosted by the department chair and always well-attended. Or the monthly research discussions hosted by the social psychology area. Called 'social socials,' these events involve a brief informal presentation of recent research by a graduate student or faculty member followed by discussion of the research, often well into the evening. Hundreds or anecdotal stories could highlight the closeness between Iowa students and faculty. Recently retired faculty member Dore Gormezano provides a good example. Traditionally, young faculty members have close ties to their graduate students, but Professor Gormezano proves older faculty can grow close to their students as well. Known around the department for his pedantic yet good- natured relationships with students, Professor Gormezano taught a famed History of Psychology to about 15 graduate students and advanced undergraduate students biennially. One morning in class last spring, he unexpectedly announced that he would be buying drinks for any class members who chose to show up at happy hour in a local bar that afternoon. Several students showed up to enjoy a few drinks over discussion ranging from foreign affairs to Professor Gormezano's grandchildren. In closing, we'd like to tell one more story to highlight the genuine concern Iowa faculty holds for the graduate students. Last fall, GSAC, the graduate student governing council, decided the lumpy sofas and holey couches in the current Graduate Student Lounge needed replacement in the soon-to-arrive renovated lounge. A student-run furniture campaign was conducted. A plea for used furniture donations turned up a love seat from Don Fowles, a long-time Clinical area faculty member. Small financial donation trickled in from struggling graduate students and generous faculty members. Finally, however, a directive was passed down from Mike O'Hara, Chair of the department, and the rest of the faculty. The department offered to scrape together some money to furnish the new Graduate Student Lounge. At this point, the department has volunteered to purchase several thousand dollars of furniture, which combined with the several hundred raised by the student committee, will furnish the lounge nicely. Few Americans doubt that the fertile fields of Iowa produce delicious corn. We hope we have demonstrated that Iowa City produces its share of top grade psychologists as well. sincerely, David C. Schwebel - APAGS representative Michael W. O'Hara - Professor and Chair CAROLINE S. MINER UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT HASKINS LABORATORIES DEPT. OF PSYCHOLOGY, U-20 270 CROWN STREET STORRS, CT 06269-1020 NEW HAVEN, CT 06511 (860)486-2549 (203)865-6163 FAX (860)486-2760 FAX (203)865-8963 From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Mon Aug 3 20:37:07 1998 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:41:41 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: Discipline is not punishment! Hi Frances Your contributions over the last few days are much appreciated. Seems you're on a roll in terms of writing at the mo and, slowly but surely, your enthusiasm and high activity level is rubbing off. Just love your "stream of consciousness" passages and wonder if you could muse a little longer on the Patriarchy/parent thing. Like you, I gave up on my alcoholic husband after 15 years and moved our 5 children to the other end of the country (of course, NZ is not a particularly large country). The children were all at school and I started a Bachelor's degree. When two of the girls were in their early teens we struck some major problems with their behaviour. Now one of them truly does have some real problems, but both were acting in ways that they "knew" were inappropriate (truancy, running away, drug and alcohol abuse, auto theft ....). I had always been (or at least tried to be) authoritative rather than authoritarian, but having come through all the problems, I really do wonder if even those "bad" aspects of patriarchy: >'bad' parts of patriarchy are NOT that patriarchy is 'bad' but that those at the top have such a difficult time understanding and discerning what is going on around them. They don't know how to listen - they are not listening are quite as bad as they appear. The fact is, I knew better than the girls at the time, I did listen, and I endlessly addressed their concerns - but I was NEVER going to agree that their way, or perspective, was appropriate. That would have been a failure in my duties as a parent. My subsequent adoption of an authoritarian stance though is easily interpreted as a failure to listen or consider their point of view - as one social worker was fond of telling me "a failure to communicate". Come on! How long do we go on talking? We needed action, and I hate to say it, but PUNISHMENT! We have a wonderful piece of legislation here - Children, Young Person's and their Families Act - which has many virtues (which are underutilised because of lack of funding), but one of the more contentious aspects of it is the protracted course of events that can occur before a child is held accountable (which to my way of thinking is punishment, and the t-shirt quote has me flummoxed - what consitutes punishment in the gospel according to t-shirts?) Well, we came through the stormy bits relatively intact in the end (and with a delightful grand-daughter who is 2 today) and I'm now doing my PhD - on the confluence of children's rights, parental rights and the State's rights in the family. The thing is, the further I travel the more I doubt my own commitment to equality. The idea of a strictly democratic family is, to me, a nonsense. And "patriarchy" (or matriarchy) has become such a dirty word that any exercising of authority or control by parents is viewed with suspicion by both the State and children themselves. (your pendulum overswing again). So please, Frances, muse some more. Cheers, Maxine From tr@tryoung.com Tue Aug 4 08:40:59 1998 (usr-mtp-41.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.41]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:37:30 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie I need a bit of help. I'm re-designing the HomePage of the RFI. I'd like to put a welcome to students in their own language. How does one say: WELCOME, STUDENTS of the World in French, in German, in Hindi, in Chinese and in Swahili?? ....or any other major language of which you have some grasp. thanks much, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Tue Aug 4 09:49:18 1998 Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 10:36:03 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: GCFL: Only in America & Fred (fwd) To: socgrad Howdy, The following joke is one of those not-so-funny could-be-true stories with sociological theoretical and practical implications GALORE! I am sending a blind complimentary copy to the woman who forwarded me the joke. And requesting that she join this list! I will also forward TR's request to translate the phrase: WELCOME! Students of the World. Have a good day - Unless you have other plans. Frances ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Fred was in the hospital, near death, so the family sent for his pastor. As the pastor stood beside the bed, Fred's frail condition grew worse, and he motioned frantically for something to write on. The pastor lovingly handed him a pen and piece of paper, and Fred used his last ounce of strength to scribble a note. Then he died. The pastor thought it best not to look at the note just then, so he slipped it into his jacket pocket. Several days later, at the funeral, the pastor delivered the eulogy. He realized that he was wearing the same jacket that he'd worn the day Fred died. "You know," he said, "ol Fred handed me a note just before he died. I haven't read it, but knowing Fred, I'm sure there's a word of inspiration there for us all." He unfolded the note and read aloud, "You're standing on my oxygen tube!" From euphoria@ou.edu Tue Aug 4 09:50:02 1998 From: "Hardcastle, T F" To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: FW: Muzafer Sherif? Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:49:55 -0500 Is there anyone with information that could help with this query. My most recent information is that Muzafer Sherif may be deceased. He was here at the university of oklahoma in the 1950's but I don't have any access to the Robbers Cave study or papers. Also, I have no information of the Institute for Group Relations. Please respond to his e-mail below. Thanks... -----Original Message----- From: Sociology Department [mailto:sociology@ou.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 8:56 AM To: gau@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au Subject: Re: Muzafer Sherif? gau@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au wrote: > > Hello, > > I was wondering if a researcher called Muzafer Sherif was still > at the Norman campus, and whether it would be possible to obtain > a copy of a famous research paper written by him and his colleagues > entitled: The Robber's Cave Experiment (1961). > > Could you tell me if the Institute of Group Relations is located > within the sociology department? > > Yours Sincerely, > Gary Au From law24@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Tue Aug 4 10:00:40 1998 Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:58:59 -0600 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Lori Wilkinson Subject: Re: SOCGRAD digest 219 In-Reply-To: <199808040236.UAA03866@csf.Colorado.EDU> Does chosing carrots over other vegetables really indicate penis envy? My connection with the answer 'carrot' is the word 'carrot' has six letters... I guess I could have easily picked 'tomato' too, but I did not. If penis envy was the only factor working on this mind game, I would have chosen 'cucumber' being that this vegetable receives the brunt of most vegetable/penis jokes I have heard. Thus, I do not think that 'penis envy' can entirely explain my selection (or anyone else's) selection of the word 'carrot'. I think repeating the word 'six' had as much to do with my selection of 'carrot' as penis envy.... but I guess this is the reason that I'm in sociology and not psychology! :) Lori Lori: Why do both men and women pick carrot?? Penis envy and castration complexes are good freudian analyses but I rather like the fact that, from different countries, we're getting different veggies...besides, all the carrots I've seen lately are tiny, tiny ones...those of us with doubts about our essential masculinity tend to like long rifles, racing cars and fat cigars. Yrs in a freudian fog, TR At 06:34 PM 8/1/98 -0600, you wrote: >I would imagine that the reason most people come up with the word 'carrot' >is because it has six letters (repeat 'six' for 15 seconds) and it is a >common vegetable in North America. I would be interested in seeing the >response in other countries where the carrot is not a common vegetable. > > >Lori Wilkinson > >Department of Sociology and >Prairie Centre of Excellence for >Research on Immigration and Integration >1-17 Humanities Centre >University of Alberta >Edmonton, Alberta >CANADA T6G 2E5 > >Office phone: 403-492-9536 >Messages: 403-492-6600 >Fax: 403-492-2594 > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Tue Aug 4 11:40:02 1998 Date: Tue, 04 Aug 98 11:22:49 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: FW: Muzafer Sherif? To: socgrad In-Reply-To: <372E9068C013D211891F00805F9FD1C255F11B@mail3.oulan.ou.edu> Hey, LADY!! THIS IS TOO, TOO, TOO FUNNY!!! 1. I was thinking about you yesterday and wondering where in my myriad e-mails I could find your address. 2. My sophomore year in high school was spent in Wilburton, Oklahoma. (Where Robbers Cave is located!) I have MANY pleasant memories of that year and of life in the Kiamichi Mountain country. Swimming and paddle boating on the lake in the State park and fear of walking across the dam - I wasn't afraid of falling in the water on one side, but the 50' drop to rocks on the other side did not seem too enticing - I was not afraid of falling - but I was 'deathly' afraid of landing! 3. In musing over Maxine's questions about discipline and punsihment, I was retracing my academic journey - and pondering comparisons of educators who taught me the most - some by 'positive' example and others by 'negative' means. Can't say that I am 'grateful' for some of the negative experience, but in the words of Kahlil Gibran in Sand and Foam - I have learned silence from the talkative; tolerance from the intolerant and kindness from the unkind. I should not be ungrateful to those teachers. Needless to say the Sherif studies have always fascinated me! You have picqued my curiosity - Let us know what you find out! Frances *****************8 On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:49:55 -0500 Hardcastle, T F said: >Is there anyone with information that could help with this query. My >most recent information is that Muzafer Sherif may be deceased. He was >here at the university of oklahoma in the 1950's but I don't have any >access to the Robbers Cave study or papers. Also, I have no information >of the Institute for Group Relations. >Please respond to his e-mail below. Thanks... > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sociology Department [mailto:sociology@ou.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 8:56 AM >To: gau@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au >Subject: Re: Muzafer Sherif? > > >gau@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I was wondering if a researcher called Muzafer Sherif was still >> at the Norman campus, and whether it would be possible to obtain >> a copy of a famous research paper written by him and his colleagues >> entitled: The Robber's Cave Experiment (1961). >> >> Could you tell me if the Institute of Group Relations is located >> within the sociology department? >> >> Yours Sincerely, >> Gary Au > > From euphoria@ou.edu Tue Aug 4 17:43:07 1998 From: "Hardcastle, T F" To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: FW: Muzafer Sherif? Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:42:59 -0500 Hey Frances. Well I am glad you found me again. I have been real busy and don't always get to read the soc list and noticed you had been posting, but honestly didn't read most of them. It gets a little cumbersome sometimes, esp. in the debate stages, and I cannot keep up. but i know you had some good things to point out. I have never been to Robbers Cave but have heard it is beautiful area. my dad when he was a campus minister used to take the college students on retreat there every year. they always complimented the area. Well, now you know my email again! so remind me, I think you are in texas? and what are you doing now? its been a long time........ take care...keep it simple! write again soon and if I hear anything, i will let you know about the sherif thing... tam Tammi Hardcastle Graduate Secretary Sociology Department University of Oklahoma (405)325-1751 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you ain't making waves, you ain't kickin hard enough! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ---------- > From euphoria@ou.edu Tue Aug 4 17:58:14 1998 From: "Hardcastle, T F" To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: oops Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:58:09 -0500 OOPS. sorry about that, list. I meant to send the reply to Frances but somehow it went to the list. major apologies! tam From tr@tryoung.com Wed Aug 5 03:34:47 1998 (usr-mtp-65.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.65]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 05:31:19 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Many thanks, worldly students! Dear Friends: I've recieved German: Willkommen, Studierenden der Welt Arabic: Mutarahabun taliban al-ghaalim Chinese: Huanying quan shijie de xuesheng Spanish: Hola, Estudiantes del Mundo and fashioned a sort of French greeting: If you can improve on it, please do: BIENVENUE, ETUDIANTES de le Monde I would really like to have Swahili [I used to know it when I taught at U/Makerere during the days of Idi Amin]... but I've forgotten how to begin it. Lots of African Students will come on-line over the next 20 years. ...and Russian...and any major Indian language. ....and I'll add more as they come in...most students around the world have two or three langauges [my students in Uganda had three and four languages] so they should get the idea that they are most welcome to help themselves to anything on the Red Feather HomePage which might be helpful to their work or teaching. ....I've found I can put in a moving banner and a voice greeting [in English] as well...I do enjoy playing around with this software! vielen danke, taks a mikki, mil gracias, gudonya, ici, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From lduchown@ic.sunysb.edu Wed Aug 5 09:13:18 1998 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Laurel Ann Duchowny To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: ASA housing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980805053119.0091d5a0@tryoung.com> Nothing like waiting until the last minute.... I'm looking for someone, preferably a female, who has a room for ASA but needs a roommate. Anyone still in this position? Anyone wait as long as me? If you are that procrastinator please write back to me off-list. Thanks, Laurie From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Wed Aug 5 10:06:27 1998 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 10:40:22 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: ASA carpool/caravan? To: socgrad The idea I am brainstorming here is REALLY reaching and grabbing at straws! Hopefully this is a 'gentle breeze' and doesn't start a tornado - If others would like to cross the dessert with some other tumbleweeds, and stream through the mountains as we burn up the roads, let us blow some ideas around and see if we can stir up some dust!! Da**! This has the makings of an incredibly amazing sociological research project! Anyone with a decent vehicle interested in carpooling to San Francisco from somewhere in my area. I could meet up with others anyplace between Houston, or San Antonio and Oklahoma City. (My brother owns Perfect Pitch Music Co. on NW 23rd in OKC - He might let us leave cars there.) In fact, I could probably get as far as Kansas City. I am a pretty good navigator and trip planner and know how to travel Second Class on a Fifth class budget!!!! Also, if someone is in a position to get a university van maybe we could come up with a collective bargain where a larger number of people are served-greatly reducing the "per unit" costs! (Someone at a private university like Baylor would have less political strings to untangle to pull something like this off!) ???????? Frances Ours not to question why? Ours but to do or die? In search of lessons of The Truth and The Lie? Into the Valley of Death will we foolishly charge - Or tread lightly - the essence of grad students - writ large!? From tr@tryoung.com Wed Aug 5 10:09:46 1998 (usr-mtp-36.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.36]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:06:16 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: ASA housing In-Reply-To: Laurie: have you seen the post from Adam Flint about sharing the Red Feather room? ....if not, do get in touch with him...3 nights on us. TR At 11:13 AM 8/5/98 -0400, you wrote: >Nothing like waiting until the last minute.... > >I'm looking for someone, preferably a female, who has a room for ASA but >needs a roommate. Anyone still in this position? Anyone wait as long as >me? If you are that procrastinator please write back to me off-list. > >Thanks, Laurie > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From SVlad@cehs.siu.edu Wed Aug 5 10:14:10 1998 From: Shawn Vlad To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: Looking for someone with a Private Plane Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:13:05 -0500 charset="iso-8859-1" I just happen to be noticing all the "last min" post about going to ASA and decided to up the ante.. Anyone willing to swing by Carbondale, IL in their Cessna I am willing to pay for the unleaded... LOL.... Irreverently yours Shawn Vlad SIUC From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Wed Aug 5 10:46:44 1998 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 11:06:01 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: IDEALly speaking-Re: ASA housing To: socgrad In-Reply-To: I have already publically acknowledged my plight regarding attending ASA. My current situation reminds me of the 60's folksong - 500 miles - not a shirt on my back, not a penny to my name! (Careful, guys! Don't go there - I do have a shirt on!! And I do actually have 3 pennies in my purse and if I dig around I could probably find a few more!) So, what about food, shelter and transportation needs of graduate students as it pertains to attendance at the Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Association in San Francisco in August, 1998? Do these needs extend into the areas of social needs etc? Are we vividly aware of the dynamic relationship between the individual situations (private) and the larger social forces (private)? What are the 'needs' and 'wants' for a graduate student desiring to go to the American Sociological Association meeting in San Francisco? Well, don't know about y'all but I'm ready to walk through a mysterious adventuresome process This process is juxtaposed between the linear thinkers' concept of 'problem solving' and the murder and crime perspective of 'mystery.' The Mysterious Adventuresome Process (MAP) starts BEFORE we try to solve a problem that may or may not be the REAL problem and before the crime is committed! So, let's start with Laurie's request. In Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Laurel Ann Duchowny said: >Nothing like waiting until the last minute.... > >I'm looking for someone, preferably a female, who has a room for ASA but >needs a roommate. Anyone still in this position? Anyone wait as long as >me? If you are that procrastinator please write back to me off-list. > >Thanks, Laurie > Honestly - my next statement is not meant sarcastic - but more awestruck - and aghast at the relative nature of people's perspective about themselves and others. Last minute? With more than two weeks to go - Procrastinator - hardly - I have gone to more than one meeting with NO MONEY and NO Place to stay! Faith? Guts? Foolish? Audacious? Hmmmm - could be all of the above! Is finding a room and/or a roomate the basic problem? Maybe for Laurie it is, but for some of us the problem is more basic than that! Even if we find a room - we ain't got no money to pay our share - and won't until the next student loan disbursement which for me won't be until after the fact! Again, not to pick on Laurie's concern for reducing the e-mail load on this list, or her attempt to deal with her individual trouble on a private level - but this may be a collective situation where we can stand C.Wright Mills on his head! Rather than thinking of the dynamic relationship between the individual (trouble) and the broader public social forces - Let us think of our collective efforts as "A broader social force" so that we can get 'more' graduate students to San Francisco with less individual effort and cost! That is all I am going to post for the moment - But I am thinking on this - The process to be used is the IDEAL Method of MAPping - As follows: Identify the problems and preferred outcomes (objectives) Determine possible means to achieve the preferred outcomes - (this is a brainstorming process and NO IDEA is too absurd at this stage of the game! If someone suggests that we roller blade or bicycle, then that is okay!) Evaluate the alternatives - For example some grad students at Stanford may decide or the above alternative - but I am not going to use that one to get from OKC or Houston! Act! - Begin to implement the desired course of action - for instance someone people in the SF area may start working on finding places to stay - surely someone has a living room floor where we can pitch a pillow and a sleeping bag! And/or a kitchen with a big enough refrigerator to store and prepare food! Others could be working on getting vehicles. Someone else could be handling logistics. etc! (But at where we are TODAY - we do not need the answers to these questions - because we don't even know for sure what the questions and desires are! Learn - At each step of the way as we implement the MAP, we may have to go back to the "I" (or "we" ) and revise part of our plan in order to adjust it to the terrain and resources available at the moment! IDEALly, I will see many of you rising stars, as we trek to, through, or fro from San Francisco! Sincerely, Frances PS - Can you believe that I put a 'convential' ending on this post!? When the map and the terrain do not match - believe the terrain! From patrick.fosu-siaw@sosiologi.uio.no Wed Aug 5 13:26:38 1998 Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:26:09 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:26:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Patrick Fosu-Siaw To: Students -- International Subject: Re: Many thanks, worldly students! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980805053119.0091d5a0@tryoung.com> Young, I guess you're not, like others, making the mistake of taking Africans as one homogeneous people! The swahili language is spoken by the East Africans. I hope I've not misconstrued your statement below. All apologies if I did. ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I would really like to have Swahili [I used to know it when > I taught at U/Makerere during the days of Idi Amin]... > but I've forgotten how to begin it. Lots of African Students > will come on-line over the next 20 years." -------------------------------------------------------------------- In my language (Twi) - I'm from Ghana- your request goes like this. If it turns out to be a poor rendition blame it on COLONIALISM! " AKWAABA: EWIASE SUKUULFO"! - Twi(Ghana) "VELKOMMEN: VERDEN STUDENTER"! - norwegian medaase (Thank you) Kwadwo (means male born on monday) ########################## On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, T R Young wrote: > Dear Friends: > > I've recieved German: > > Willkommen, Studierenden der Welt > > Arabic: > > Mutarahabun taliban al-ghaalim > > Chinese: > Huanying quan shijie de xuesheng > > Spanish: > > Hola, Estudiantes del Mundo > > and fashioned a sort of French greeting: If you > can improve on it, please do: > > BIENVENUE, ETUDIANTES de le Monde > > I would really like to have Swahili [I used to know it when > I taught at U/Makerere during the days of Idi Amin]... > but I've forgotten how to begin it. Lots of African Students > will come on-line over the next 20 years. > > ...and Russian...and any major Indian language. > > ...and I'll add more as they come in...most students around the > world have two or three langauges [my students in Uganda had three > and four languages] so they should get the idea that they are > most welcome to help themselves to anything on the Red Feather > HomePage which might be helpful to their work or teaching. > > ...I've found I can put in a moving banner and a voice > greeting [in English] as well...I do enjoy playing around with > this software! > > vielen danke, > taks a mikki, > mil gracias, > gudonya, > > ici, TR > TR Young, 8085 Essex > Weidman, Mi., 48893 > Email: tr@tryoung.com > From tr@tryoung.com Wed Aug 5 14:41:32 1998 (usr-mtp-46.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.46]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:38:03 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Many thanks, worldly students! In-Reply-To: Thank you very much...I'll use the Twi version... TRYoung At 09:26 PM 8/5/98 +0200, you wrote: >Young, > >I guess you're not, like others, making the mistake of taking Africans as >one homogeneous people! The swahili language is spoken by the East >Africans. I hope I've not misconstrued your statement below. All apologies >if I did. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > "I would really like to have Swahili [I used to know it when >> I taught at U/Makerere during the days of Idi Amin]... >> but I've forgotten how to begin it. Lots of African Students >> will come on-line over the next 20 years." >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >In my language (Twi) - I'm from Ghana- your request goes like this. If it >turns out to be a poor rendition blame it on COLONIALISM! > >" AKWAABA: EWIASE SUKUULFO"! - Twi(Ghana) > >"VELKOMMEN: VERDEN STUDENTER"! - norwegian > >medaase (Thank you) > >Kwadwo (means male born on monday) > > >########################## > >On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, T R Young wrote: > >> Dear Friends: >> >> I've recieved German: >> >> Willkommen, Studierenden der Welt >> >> Arabic: >> >> Mutarahabun taliban al-ghaalim >> >> Chinese: >> Huanying quan shijie de xuesheng >> >> Spanish: >> >> Hola, Estudiantes del Mundo >> >> and fashioned a sort of French greeting: If you >> can improve on it, please do: >> >> BIENVENUE, ETUDIANTES de le Monde >> >> I would really like to have Swahili [I used to know it when >> I taught at U/Makerere during the days of Idi Amin]... >> but I've forgotten how to begin it. Lots of African Students >> will come on-line over the next 20 years. >> >> ...and Russian...and any major Indian language. >> >> ...and I'll add more as they come in...most students around the >> world have two or three langauges [my students in Uganda had three >> and four languages] so they should get the idea that they are >> most welcome to help themselves to anything on the Red Feather >> HomePage which might be helpful to their work or teaching. >> >> ...I've found I can put in a moving banner and a voice >> greeting [in English] as well...I do enjoy playing around with >> this software! >> >> vielen danke, >> taks a mikki, >> mil gracias, >> gudonya, >> >> ici, TR >> TR Young, 8085 Essex >> Weidman, Mi., 48893 >> Email: tr@tryoung.com >> > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From Richard_Carpiano@BAYLOR.EDU Wed Aug 5 19:01:42 1998 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 20:01:31 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) From: Richard_Carpiano Subject: Re: ASA carpool/caravan? In-reply-to: To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Frances: Since I am a Baylor grad student in Soc (more or less--I graduate on the 15th), I had to respond to your post. Believe it or not, we probably have more strings to untangle here to get a hold of a school-owned van. Requesting a van to drive to San Fran and pick up grad students along the way would result in the Baylor administration laughing you right out of their office. Currently our trip to ASA (myself and 2 other grad students) is in limbo due to bureaucratic feet dragging by our dean that is delaying our funding. So let this be a lesson--private schools have just as much red tape and unnecessary bureaucracy as many larger public institutions. Nevertheless, I wish you good luck on your hunt for transportation. Holding my breath for conference travel cash (and turning blue), Rich Carpiano Sociology M.A. in 10 days (and counting) Baylor University ---------- The idea I am brainstorming here is REALLY reaching and grabbing at straws! Hopefully this is a 'gentle breeze' and doesn't start a tornado - If others would like to cross the dessert with some other tumbleweeds, and stream through the mountains as we burn up the roads, let us blow some ideas around and see if we can stir up some dust!! Da**! This has the makings of an incredibly amazing sociological research project! Anyone with a decent vehicle interested in carpooling to San Francisco from somewhere in my area. I could meet up with others anyplace between Houston, or San Antonio and Oklahoma City. (My brother owns Perfect Pitch Music Co. on NW 23rd in OKC - He might let us leave cars there.) In fact, I could probably get as far as Kansas City. I am a pretty good navigator and trip planner and know how to travel Second Class on a Fifth class budget!!!! Also, if someone is in a position to get a university van maybe we could come up with a collective bargain where a larger number of people are served-greatly reducing the "per unit" costs! (Someone at a private university like Baylor would have less political strings to untangle to pull something like this off!) ???????? Frances Ours not to question why? Ours but to do or die? In search of lessons of The Truth and The Lie? Into the Valley of Death will we foolishly charge - Or tread lightly - the essence of grad students - writ large!? From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Wed Aug 5 20:24:46 1998 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:29:13 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: Mentoring and the Mentor's Song Hi TR Is there an attachment missing from this, or am even more illiterate than I supposed? Cheers, Maxine PS You have a sort of "in loco mentoris" role for me even if it is unintentional. At 07:51 AM 3/08/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Mentoring: There were two or three people whom I liked >and admired in grad school at U/Mich/AnnArbor: Gerry Lenski, Tad >Blalock and Horace Miner where helpful at crucial moments >but they were not mentors for me in any sense. It was very >different at U/Colorado. > >Blaine Mercer, Jud Pearson and that wonderful teacher, Howard >Higman were my mentors...then too, Rene' Koenig sort of >adopted me on his two visits to the States. Lyle Shannon >at U/Iowa also visited Boulder, taught me, and gave me help over >the years...that's what a mentor does...s/he helps students >long after they've left the classroom...left the university. > >I have been lucky enough to have grad and undergrad students >who have sorta adopted me as mentor; they continue to brighten >my life: Heidi H. from TWU; Ted M. from CSU; Jerry Dedmon and >a dozen others have, over the past 25 years, remained close >to my heart. David Langer, who took a course with me at U/Vermont >two winters ago, continues to work with me. > >For those of you who will, one day, serve as mentor, I have >a song which you can use for whatever inspiration it might >bring.. > >...Now apart from my dear wife, Dorothy and my five children, >no one has ever heard me sing...so do bear with me...I give >you the song and the good advice out of the love I bear all >those students, grad and undergraduate, who have blessed me >with their time, their attention and whatever small increase >in knowledge and wisdom they might have picked up over the >years... > >...it takes a while to load...if you don't have a sound card >and speaker now, you might want to save it for a time you do. > > all good love, Always, TR >TR Young, 8085 Essex >Weidman, Mi., 48893 >Email: tr@tryoung.com > > From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Wed Aug 5 21:42:53 1998 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 22:13:40 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: ASA carpool/caravan? To: Richard_Carpiano , Sociology Graduate Students -- International , owner-socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Rich, BTW I'm a point/counterpoint in the Baylor Line! Made my first and only D in school in Harold Osborn's Intro to Soc course. And my only "F's" in Mr. (Now Dr.) Reid's Western Civ and Intro to Nursing! When I suggested that a private college might be a possibility - remember I am just brainstorming here - I used Baylor as an example because of size & location - and I was quite aware of the irony of even using them as an example. I am well aware of the Texas Baptist mentality!!! But I didn't expect anyone to 'air the dirty linen!' However, you did not address the possibility of whether you are willing to share a vehicle and drive. If you already have your airline ticket then it is a moot point - but thanks for shedding light on that idea. Frances From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Wed Aug 5 21:53:13 1998 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 22:45:11 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: Mentoring and the Mentor's Song To: Maxine Campbell , Sociology Graduate Students -- International , owner-socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980806141838.2617e17a@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> Reminded me of a funny story about mentoring - In my first semester at A&M, I was in Jane Sell's Social Psych class -(She's awesome anyway and has served as mentor to many.) We were discussing mentoring and one of the students from the Ed Psych department mentioned there is somewhat of a parallel between perceptions of mentoring relationships and sexual ones. Needless to say THAT got our attention. She explained, "People think that everyone else's is better than theirs!" Just for Fun, Frances From tr@tryoung.com Thu Aug 6 03:23:24 1998 (usr-mtp-31.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.31]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 05:19:55 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Mentoring and the Mentor's Song In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980806141838.2617e17a@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> Maxine: I am proud to be 'in mentoris locus' for you... ....you made my day. I am in midst of a new mini-lecture on the do's and don't of mentoring...I shall dedicate it to you when it is finished... ....right now, I'm working on a theory of Charm, Beauty and Postmodern Romance... do good work, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Thu Aug 6 05:56:54 1998 (usr-mtp-31.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.31]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:53:24 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: two things First, the list-serve at socgrad rejected the attachment in which, just for you, I sang the mentor's song...and when I up-loaded it to the socgrad homepage on the Red Feather domain, it didn't play...Chris, the owner of the ISP says that the software I use creates havoc with other programs so he doesn't support the sound card part of it. The only solution of which I now can use is to send it to those of you at your home email address if: a. you have sound card and speaker b. you can recieve large files...[it is in binary sound so it takes a lot of bits to make a sound byte. c. you have the patience to load a large file...I fixed and ate my breakfast while the file was loading for Maxine. Second: I've just added a mini-lecture to the socgrad Archives entitled: 058Charm, Beauty and Symbolic Interaction:         A Lovely Little Theory for those of you interested in SSSI and in Beauty, you may find it of interest. Double click on: http://www.tryoung.com/lectures/58ATheoryOfBeauty.htm Sorry about the song, you didn't miss a heck of a lot...and I'm working on a parallel mini-lecture for you...entitled, On Mentors and Mentoring...with which you can help me after I post the first version. all good care, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Thu Aug 6 11:12:15 1998 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 12:03:15 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie (fwd) (fwd) To: socgrad One of my two sisters-in-law named Judy Haynes sent me the following French translation. I love her even when she misspells my name! (She does know how to spell my last name correctly! - Maybe she uses the 'i' because I am just One of the Guys from her husband's family! And that could be the 'good news' or the 'bad news!') My Question for French speakers and linguists - what would be the different times and places to use Bienvenue or Accueille for Welcome? Frances ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi Francis, Accueille etudiant des monde=Welcome students of the world (french) Comprende?=Understand?(italian)teehee Love, Judy From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Thu Aug 6 11:36:00 1998 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 12:22:28 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie (fwd) To: HELMUT STAUBMANN , socgrad In-Reply-To: <18A79C43D2D@subz-nov.uibk.ac.at> Dr. Staubmann, Thank you most kindly for your thoughtful and delightful explanation! I am taking the liberty of forwarding your answer to the Sociology Graduate student list. I think many of the students would appreciate the intricacies involved. As usual your comments left me with a grin! (Folks, this guy is an intelligent, funny, good-looking gentleman and scholar! If you try to visit with him at ASA, you may have to take a number and stand in line! ) Frances PS - Helmut, would some of your students be interested in signing onto this list? On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:20:06 +0100 you said: >Frances: it is not so easy to tranlate this simple expression into >German. A translation word by word goes: >"Willkommen, Studierende dieser Welt" >This is o.k. However, it sounds a bit dramatic and sort of >oldfashioned in style. It might be better >to do it this way: >"Willkommen, hallo und Gruess Gott an alle Studierenden dieser Welt" >This takes the hardgoing style out by underlying it with a little >irony. >Willkommen is a bit formal, hallo is for the young, Gruess >Gott is the South German and Austrian way to say hallo (Grues Gott >means Greet God and it is used in the catholic parts of the German >speaking world without having a religious reference any more and >the north-Germans make fun out of it by answering: well, in case I >see him I will greet him). >Frances, hope that helps, >Helmut >, >Institut fuer Soziologie >Universitaet Innsbruck >Innrain 52 >A-6020 Innsbruck > >Tel. +43 (512) 507-7306 Fax. +43 (512) 507-2841 >Http://www.uibk.ac.at/homepage/Helmut.Staubmann From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Thu Aug 6 11:38:34 1998 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 12:36:06 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Some foreign languages! (fwd) To: socgrad One more set of translations of WELCOME Students of the World The original was sent to TR and myself. Frances ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, Frances forwarded your request to me. What I could come up with was the phrase in three languages -- Hindi (the national language) and Tamil and Malayalam (the latter 2 are major South Indian languages). Hope this helps you in your redesigning! WELCOME, STUDENTS OF THE WORLD HINDI: Is sansar ke vidhyarthiyon apka swagath hai MALAYALAM: Ee logathile vidhyarthikale ningalakku swagatham TAMIL: Maanavargale ungal varavu nal varavaagattam Susan From allan@sociology.net Fri Aug 7 06:08:59 1998 (peer crosschecked as: zannie.allan.org [208.210.72.3]) id QQfbka12884; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "allan" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:08:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Some foreign languages! (fwd) Reply-to: allan@sociology.net In-reply-to: <980806.123753.CDT.flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU> Have you considered trying Altavista's translation service? http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ Its pretty good, not great, but most of the people I know who have used it have been happy. allan At 12:36, Frances L. Haynes was like: > One more set of translations of WELCOME Students of the World > The original was sent to TR and myself. > > Frances > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Hi, > Frances forwarded your request to me. What I could come up with > was the phrase in three languages -- Hindi (the national language) > and Tamil and Malayalam (the latter 2 are major South Indian > languages). Hope this helps you in your redesigning! > > WELCOME, STUDENTS OF THE WORLD > > HINDI: Is sansar ke vidhyarthiyon apka swagath hai > MALAYALAM: Ee logathile vidhyarthikale ningalakku swagatham > TAMIL: Maanavargale ungal varavu nal varavaagattam > > Susan > > _____________________________________ allan allan@sociology.net http://www.sociology.net/ From j-czerlinski@uchicago.edu Fri Aug 7 07:11:33 1998 Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:10:36 -0500 (CDT) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: j-czerlinski@uchicago.edu (Jean Czerlinski) Subject: Experiment! Use your first impulse to answer: Think of a fruit. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Without any preceding mathematics or special priming, I would bet that most people will say "apple," a few will say "orange", and about 10% will name other fruits (banana [technically not a fruit], grapes, peaches, strawberries[my personal favorite fruit, but I still think of apples first]). If my guess is right, it's because of psychology's "prototype" theory of categories. That is, for most categories we call up a certain image which has most of the "typical" (often but not necessarily "average") qualities for members of that category. When we encounter new objects, e.g. new edible plant parts, we classify them according to how similar they are to our prototypes-- "Is this more like an apple [call it a fruit] or a carrot [call it a vegetable]." Of course, different cultures have different prototypes, and even individuals can differ somewhat or change prototypes according to context. [I don't mean prototype in the Jungian sense.] None of this is a real explanation for *why* our brains work this way-- I'm not trying to make some deep statement here! I just wanted to say I don't think it needs a complicated theory like Freudianism. Cheers, Jean From tr@tryoung.com Fri Aug 7 08:40:19 1998 (usr-mtp-53.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.53]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:36:45 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Some foreign languages! (fwd) In-Reply-To: Many Thanks...it is just what I need! TR At 08:08 AM 8/7/98 +0000, you wrote: >Have you considered trying Altavista's translation service? > >http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ > >Its pretty good, not great, but most of the people I know who have >used it have been happy. > >allan > >At 12:36, Frances L. Haynes was like: > >> One more set of translations of WELCOME Students of the World >> The original was sent to TR and myself. >> >> Frances >> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> >> Hi, >> Frances forwarded your request to me. What I could come up with >> was the phrase in three languages -- Hindi (the national language) >> and Tamil and Malayalam (the latter 2 are major South Indian >> languages). Hope this helps you in your redesigning! >> >> WELCOME, STUDENTS OF THE WORLD >> >> HINDI: Is sansar ke vidhyarthiyon apka swagath hai >> MALAYALAM: Ee logathile vidhyarthikale ningalakku swagatham >> TAMIL: Maanavargale ungal varavu nal varavaagattam >> >> Susan >> >> >_____________________________________ >allan allan@sociology.net > http://www.sociology.net/ > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From flh8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Fri Aug 7 08:44:37 1998 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 09:08:59 CDT From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: Experiment! To: Jean Czerlinski , Sociology Graduate Students -- International , owner-socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Watermelon - prototypical Southern United States - other algorythmic proto/stereo type beliefs and assumptions could easily lead an American sociologist, linear thinker to jump to the conclusion that I am black - WRONG! Just what do our numbers mean!? What are differences in prediction, projection, and prophesy!? Jean, thanks much for your idea and post. I will be interested in seeing the answers. Your post (along with the 'whole' thing of late) is helping me get a handle on the HOW of presenting the Jungian part of my dissertation. I would be equally interested in second, third, and fourth choices. Once the original decision is made - what choices remain - perhaps second choices have as much or more effect than first ones! The Degrees of freedom comcept may be easier to understand in Chaos theory than in linear regression and Analysis of Variance! Actually-Jean, you know a WHOLE LOT more about Chaos theory than I do! I hope to find out more about how you 'use' it and what some of the Chaos conferences were like! Best wishes! Frances From rb6553a@american.edu Fri Aug 7 17:11:53 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:04:49 -0400 Subject: Re: How does one say...comment dit-on Having just spent some time in Montreal, I thought I'd put in my "deux francs" on the subject. Whether it's acceuille or bienvenue, it is certainly "du monde" not "de le monde" (TR) or "des monde" (as Frances's sister would have it). "De" means "of" and "le" means "the"; when they are used together they are contracted to "du." (The contraction "des" means "of the" as well, but it is the plural form (a contraction of "de" and "les")). As for the word welcome, I believe one would use the word bienvenue to welcome a large group of people (this was used at the ISA meeting, as I recall). Robert Brooks still relying on my high school French after a long, long time. From tr@tryoung.com Sat Aug 8 04:07:16 1998 (usr-mtp-65.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.65]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 06:03:48 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: How does one say...comment dit-on In-Reply-To: <85256659.007E2CD9.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Got it, thanks, TR At 07:04 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >Having just spent some time in Montreal, I thought I'd put in my "deux >francs" on the subject. Whether it's acceuille or bienvenue, it is >certainly "du monde" not "de le monde" (TR) or "des monde" (as Frances's >sister would have it). "De" means "of" and "le" means "the"; when they are >used together they are contracted to "du." (The contraction "des" means "of >the" as well, but it is the plural form (a contraction of "de" and "les")). >As for the word welcome, I believe one would use the word bienvenue to >welcome a large group of people (this was used at the ISA meeting, as I >recall). >Robert Brooks >still relying on my high school French after a long, long time. > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sat Aug 8 04:11:40 1998 (usr-mtp-65.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.65]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 06:08:12 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Experiment! In-Reply-To: Apple it is! TR At 08:10 AM 8/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Use your first impulse to answer: > > > >Think of a fruit. > > >. >. >. >. >. >. >. >. > > >. > > >. > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > > > > >. > > > >Without any preceding mathematics or special priming, I would bet that >most people will say "apple," a few will say "orange", and about 10% will >name other fruits (banana [technically not a fruit], grapes, peaches, >strawberries[my personal favorite fruit, but I still think of apples >first]). > >If my guess is right, it's because of psychology's "prototype" theory of >categories. That is, for most categories we call up a certain image which >has most of the "typical" (often but not necessarily "average") qualities >for members of that category. When we encounter new objects, e.g. new >edible plant parts, we classify them according to how similar they are to >our prototypes-- "Is this more like an apple [call it a fruit] or a carrot >[call it a vegetable]." Of course, different cultures have different >prototypes, and even individuals can differ somewhat or change prototypes >according to context. > >[I don't mean prototype in the Jungian sense.] > >None of this is a real explanation for *why* our brains work this way-- I'm >not trying to make some deep statement here! I just wanted to say I don't >think it needs a complicated theory like Freudianism. > >Cheers, > >Jean > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sat Aug 8 09:11:55 1998 (usr-mtp-47.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.47]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 11:05:42 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: On Mentoring: First Draft Dear friends: Below is a draft of Part II on Mentoring which, after you critique/add to it, I will put in the RF SocGrad Archives. ********* Part II: Day to Day Mentoring. In the first post on this subject, I talked of my own mentors and, in a song, tried to inspire and instruct you to mentor yourself. Later, it occurred to me that seldom is mentoring itself a topic in courses on teaching sociology. Here are some do's and don'ts: A. Things in General: 1. It is a real human being in your tutelage...respect her/him. 2. S/he will need positive reinforcement especiall when there seems little grounds for it. 3. S/he will need funds...some will have an easy road, in financial terms...some will take on Students Loans...some will have TA support and some GRA support...Yet some will need creative financing solutions...as Mentor, you must help. 4. S/he will need practice in teaching...ask your GTA to select at least two topics upon which to lecture...and stick around to hear them so you can give fair critique. 5. Be flexible in Degree Plans: If a student wants to take philosophy; sit in on postmodern lit classes, get background in physiological psychology or take courses in macro-economics or dance theory...try to fit it in. 6. Be flexible in Research Design. As example, two grad students at U/Colo-Boulder did a video documentary rather than the standard monograph...and instead of a Defense of Thesis by a Faculty Committee, they organized a Critique by the Subjects of the Research...in this case, coal miners. 7. If you mentor a Graduate Research Assistant; set the ground rules early on for publication; generally whoever has the first draft should be first author...even if it is your research grant, your research questions, your research design and your career on the line...being second author to a lot of grad students will, in 20 years time, be a source of great satisfaction. B. Things to do as role model for GTA's: 1. Be prepared; come to class with lectures well in hand. 2. Be creative in teaching aides, in classroom lectures and in evaluation procedures; there should be a variety of pathways through the learning process since different students have different interests, different strenghts and different career aims. I use an interactionally rich and informationally diverse Syllabus called The Great Flying Chaos Learning Circus...takes a lot of work but the rewards are great and also non-linear. 3. Be fair; you will make mistakes both in the setting of and scoring of objective exams...check the results before you return papers and correct errors without being asked. 4. Be judicious; sometimes students will have good reason for the bad grade they get...hear them out and, where sensible, make adjustments...I could give you a hundred stories in which I made such adjustments but your stories will be different. 5. Be courteous: no matter what the provocation, keep cool. You have more social power than you might realize...use it with wisdom and compassion. 6. Be ready to beyond the boundaries of student-teacher relationship if the welfare of the student is in jeopardy. Two stories: one student, an unmarried mother, had a child in University pre-school. She was two months behind in fees. When she told me she was about to drop out, I loaned her $300 to pay the arrears...I didn't feel comfortable about it since she had promised to pay the money back and I knew that, on student loans, she would have a hard time. Then too, I didn't want to be banker to my students...so I asked the Chair, a very wise woman, to treat the 'loan' to her as a gift to the department and to let her work it off as an unofficial office assistant to the secretary...worked out well. Another student had not appeared for a mid-term; she showed up the following Monday with bruises on her face...her boy-friend had beaten her...the young man had been my student the year prior; I talked to him...she took a different version of the exam and was not bothered by the young man again. I also advised her to change the lock on her door...she had given him keys to the apartment...over the years, there will be such situations arise; think well before you do any such thing...BUT, in your wisdom, you might have to do something. C. Things not to do; never, never, never!!: 1. Never, never exchange 'easy' grades for student popularity; your responsibility is to society-at-large...you must help create a knowledge process which is helpful to a good and decent society. That sometimes requires what Marcuse called 'necessary repression,' ...who distinguishes it from: 2. 'Surplus repression' ...never, never use your social power as Professor to force students to defer to you as and only as an 'authority' figure. Authority of knowledge is acceptable; of position, not. 3. Never, never extort sexual favors from students...that subverts the knowledge process; the socialization process and the mental health of the person extorted and, if faculty learn of it, your career andreputation will be destroyed...and rightly so. That does not mean that all forms of intimacy are excluded between someone called a 'teacher' and someone called a 'student.' Many men and women have, in all good conscience, had intimate relationships with students...but not 'their students.'...never. 4. It is not a good idea to lend money to students... what I have done in past is to give a student up to $500, take it as a tax-deductible gift to the Department and set up a work plan for the student to work it off at whatever rate work-study students are paid... Dedicated to Maxine Campbell and to some 10,000 others who have shared time and thought with me. TRYoung TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Aug 9 15:35:08 1998 Date: Sun, 09 Aug 98 17:34:23 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: H-ETHNIC: Postdoc & Visiting Fellowships in Asian-American Studiesat UCLA (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 14:31:25 -0400 Reply-To: Richard Jensen Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: Postdoc & Visiting Fellowships in Asian-American Studiesat UCLA To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU From: Don Nakanishi ANNOUNCEMENT: 1999-2000 POSTDOCTORAL AND VISITING SCHOLAR FELLOWSHIP IN ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES AND ETHNIC STUDIES AT UCLA The UCLA Asian American Studies Center will again offer a fellowship in 1999-2000 to a postdoctoral scholar in support of research or creative activity on Asian Pacific Americans. The fellowship ranges from $23,000 to $28,000 per year plus health benefits and up to $3,000 in research support. The fellowship can be awarded for less than a year in which case the stipend is adjusted to the length of the award, and can be used to supplement sabbatical salaries. The acceptance of the fellowship carries with it the commitment to make a contribution to the research activities of the Center, along with the teaching of one course and a presentation in the Center's faculty colloquium series. Deadline for application and supporting documents is December 31, 1998. For an application form or more information, please contact: Dr. Enrique DeLa Cruz, Assistant Director UCLA Asian American Studies Center 3230 Campbell Hall P.O. Box 951546 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546 310.825.2974 (phone) 310.206.9844 (fax) tulisan@ucla.edu (e-mail) More information about the faculty, staff, programs, publications, library and archival rsources, and upcoming events of the UCLA Asian American Studies Center can be found at its web page: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc. Postdoctoral fellowships in African American Studies, American Indian Studies, and Chicano Studies are also available through the UCLA Center for African American Studies (310.206.8267), American Indian Studies Center (310.825.7315), and Chicano Studies Research Center (310.825.2363). For more general information, please contact the UCLA Institute of American Cultures (310.206.2557), or look at its web page at http://www.gdnet.ucla.edu/iacweb/iachome.htm. Don Nakanishi Director and Professor UCLA Asian American Studies Center 3230 Campbell Hall Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546 phone: 310.825.2974 fax: 310.206.9844 e-mail: dtn@ucla.edu web site for Center: www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc From sjc@mole.uvm.edu Sun Aug 9 16:35:35 1998 Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Cavrak To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: How does one say...comment dit-on In-Reply-To: <85256659.007E2CD9.00@notes-gw.american.edu> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 rb6553a@AMERICAN.EDU wrote: > As for the word welcome, I believe one would use the > word bienvenue ... as do the states of Vermont, New Hampshire, New York when you cross the border from a nice visit to Montreal. Steve From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Sun Aug 9 17:05:59 1998 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:10:41 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: On Mentoring: First Draft Thanks so much, TR Some thoughts from the other end of the process: One of the things I appreciate most about my chief supervisor is his ability to "read" personality types in terms of how closely different students need to be worked with. Some students have weekly or fortnightly meetings with their supervisors, but he has never suggested it to me, and when I asked if he'd feel more comfortable if we did something like that (I'd hate it) he was quick to reassure me. He has the happy knack of knowing just how much pressure to put on me, and I have the reassurance of knowing he is always approachable and amenable. His means of giving feedback also works well for me - there is never a "directive" element to it, but relevant comment and, best of all, QUESTIONS. I realise that these often amount to directing me on a particular course, but it is a much better, and more thought provoking, method of ensuring the rigour of the work. He is also prompt in responding to any work I give to him for comment - there are some excellent staff here whose talents are largely wasted as far as grad students are concerned because of their dreadful reputation in terms of reliability. Consequently they are seldom chosen as supervisors. While I much appreciate my current situation, it has not always been so rosy. In my honours year in particular, the way I was "read" (that is, my person rather than my work, though it impacted on my work) by my internal examiners worked against me. I am a blue-eyed blonde in fairly good condition for my age, and the need to meet many family commitments probably exacerbated any assumption that I might be "flighty", and it was not until the external examiner graded my work (he had never met me and knew nothing of my circumstances) that I realised there had been an impact on my grades that I cannot explain any other way. The external examiner put most my grades up and I certainly feel as if I have been taken more seriously since then. The other students in my cohort did not have their grades adjusted. If nothing else, it has made me very aware of the potential to make similar assumptions about the students I tutor, to the extent that I try to avoid checking the name on the assignment I am grading until the end. At other times, of course, knowing who has written the assignment helps in understanding what they are trying to say, and with helping them find ways to say it better. I also believe that the feedback given on assignments is more important than the grade - I hated getting papers back with an "A" and not a single comment. What did I do right and what would have improved it? The grade is largely for the benefit of the system, and though it might be personally gratifying, the gratification is far more fleeting than some well placed comments would have been. The same sort of feedback is helpful now for the occasional lecture I am asked to give, as you mention TR, but one thing I would have appreciated was a little evaluation of what I intended to present to the class BEFORE the event. In other words, mentor me as a teacher as well as a student. The course convenors seem to have far more faith in me than I do! I notice you do not include this in your article and wonder if being thrown in at the deep end is considered the best way to become proficient. Cheers, Maxine >the Department and set up a work plan for the student to work it off at >whatever rate work-study students are paid... > > >Dedicated to Maxine Campbell and to some 10,000 others who have shared time >and thought with me. > > TRYoung >TR Young, 8085 Essex >Weidman, Mi., 48893 >Email: tr@tryoung.com > > From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 10 03:00:33 1998 (usr-mtp-57.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.57]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 04:57:03 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: On Mentoring: First Draft In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980810105947.26f77ace@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> Thank you, Maxine...I've used all four of your points; only goes to show that students know good mentoring better than a mentor knows mentoring. TR At 11:10 AM 8/10/98 +1200, you wrote: >Thanks so much, TR > >Some thoughts from the other end of the process: > >One of the things I appreciate most about my chief supervisor is his ability >to "read" personality types in terms of how closely different students need >to be worked with. Some students have weekly or fortnightly meetings with >their supervisors, but he has never suggested it to me, and when I asked if >he'd feel more comfortable if we did something like that (I'd hate it) he >was quick to reassure me. He has the happy knack of knowing just how much >pressure to put on me, and I have the reassurance of knowing he is always >approachable and amenable. > >His means of giving feedback also works well for me - there is never a >"directive" element to it, but relevant comment and, best of all, QUESTIONS. >I realise that these often amount to directing me on a particular course, >but it is a much better, and more thought provoking, method of ensuring the >rigour of the work. He is also prompt in responding to any work I give to >him for comment - there are some excellent staff here whose talents are >largely wasted as far as grad students are concerned because of their >dreadful reputation in terms of reliability. Consequently they are seldom >chosen as supervisors. > >While I much appreciate my current situation, it has not always been so >rosy. In my honours year in particular, the way I was "read" (that is, my >person rather than my work, though it impacted on my work) by my internal >examiners worked against me. I am a blue-eyed blonde in fairly good >condition for my age, and the need to meet many family commitments probably >exacerbated any assumption that I might be "flighty", and it was not until >the external examiner graded my work (he had never met me and knew nothing >of my circumstances) that I realised there had been an impact on my grades >that I cannot explain any other way. The external examiner put most my >grades up and I certainly feel as if I have been taken more seriously since >then. The other students in my cohort did not have their grades adjusted. > >If nothing else, it has made me very aware of the potential to make similar >assumptions about the students I tutor, to the extent that I try to avoid >checking the name on the assignment I am grading until the end. At other >times, of course, knowing who has written the assignment helps in >understanding what they are trying to say, and with helping them find ways >to say it better. I also believe that the feedback given on assignments is >more important than the grade - I hated getting papers back with an "A" and >not a single comment. What did I do right and what would have improved it? >The grade is largely for the benefit of the system, and though it might be >personally gratifying, the gratification is far more fleeting than some well >placed comments would have been. > >The same sort of feedback is helpful now for the occasional lecture I am >asked to give, as you mention TR, but one thing I would have appreciated was >a little evaluation of what I intended to present to the class BEFORE the >event. In other words, mentor me as a teacher as well as a student. The >course convenors seem to have far more faith in me than I do! I notice you >do not include this in your article and wonder if being thrown in at the >deep end is considered the best way to become proficient. > >Cheers, Maxine > > > > >>the Department and set up a work plan for the student to work >it off at >>whatever rate work-study students are paid... >> >> >>Dedicated to Maxine Campbell and to some 10,000 others who have shared time >>and thought with me. >> >> TRYoung >>TR Young, 8085 Essex >>Weidman, Mi., 48893 >>Email: tr@tryoung.com >> >> > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tombrown@jhu.edu Mon Aug 10 07:13:33 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:13:06 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: The Best Job Announcement To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu You know how every academic job announcement uses exactly the same language ("evidence of outstanding research and teaching ability, yada yada yada")? Here's what an honest job announcement looks like. I thought it was a parody at first, but I checked it out and it's real: SOUTHEAST MISSOURI STATE UNIVERSITY Cape Girardeau, Missouri 63701 (314) 651-2000 Enclosed is an announcement of a tenure-track position in philosophy at the rank of assistant professor. We hope to fill this position rapidly; the target date for our final decision is June 13. We are more interested in looking at candidates with real teaching experience than in newly minted Ph.D's, who might have unrealistic expectations about the possibilities for academic growth at an institution such as ours. Southeast Missouri State University is a regional university which serves students in the southeast portion of the state including St. Louis. Our students tend to be poorly prepared for college level work, intellectually passive, interested primarily in partying, and culturally provincial in the extreme. We offer a major in philosophy. but do not usually have more than two students officially declared as majors at any given time. There are a few good students, however, and we are proud to say that our current graduating major, William Knorpp, won the 1985 Analysis competition and will be undertaking graduate study in philosophy at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill next year. Mr. Knorpp 's upper level work was mainly accomplished through independent tutorials; and pros-pective candidate must understand that there will be virtually no opportunity to teach upper-division seminars in philosophy. We also offer a religious studies minor; most of the students who declare this minor are shocked to learn that Moses might not have written the Pentateuch and regard higher criticism as secular humanist propaganda. The 12 hrs/semester teaching load is devoted mainly to general education courses at the freshman/sophomore level. In another five years, if the general education curriculum is revised as promised, there may be seminars which are to "capstone' the G.E. program. The academic environment at SEMO is distinctly non-intellectual-somewhat like a Norman Rockwell painting--and the candidate cannot expect to attract students by offering courses that assume innate curiosity about ideas and books, or intellectual playfulness, or independence of moral and political thought. Nevertheless. in order to earn promotion and tenure it is necessary to be involved in curriculum development and to sustain an interest in research and publication. It has occurred to me that the best candidate would be some-one who has held the Ph.D. for more than two years, has taught at a community college or a rural state institution, and who would like to continue in some-what the same vein but at a slightly higher level.I will be interviewing at the Central Division Meetings in St. Louis. If you have an questions, you may call me at my office (314-651-2186). Sincerely, Dennis Holt, Chairman, Department of Philosophy From meisel@sobek.Colorado.EDU Mon Aug 10 09:13:12 1998 Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:13:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:13:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Meisel Joshua To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: How does one say...comment dit-on In-Reply-To: <85256659.007E2CD9.00@notes-gw.american.edu> It is "bienvenue" and Robert is right, "du monde". On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 rb6553a@american.edu wrote: > Having just spent some time in Montreal, I thought I'd put in my "deux > francs" on the subject. Whether it's acceuille or bienvenue, it is > certainly "du monde" not "de le monde" (TR) or "des monde" (as Frances's > sister would have it). "De" means "of" and "le" means "the"; when they are > used together they are contracted to "du." (The contraction "des" means "of > the" as well, but it is the plural form (a contraction of "de" and "les")). > As for the word welcome, I believe one would use the word bienvenue to > welcome a large group of people (this was used at the ISA meeting, as I > recall). > Robert Brooks > still relying on my high school French after a long, long time. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua S. Meisel Meisel@Colorado.EDU Graduate Student, Department of Sociology University of Colorado, Boulder Office: (303)492-6269 Fax: (303)492-8878 * WWW Home Page URL http://socsci.colorado.edu/~meisel/Home.html * From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Aug 10 14:24:57 1998 Date: Mon, 10 Aug 98 16:23:54 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: One class adjunct needed (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU another truthful ad -- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: "Barbara Peters" Reply-To: TEACHSOC@listserv.lemoyne.edu Organization: Southampton College of L.I.U. To: teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:16:25 -0500 Hello, If anyone knows of an ABD sociologist who would like to be exploited by us and teach one section of Introduction to Sociology this fall, could you please contact me ASAP? The benefits? Wonderful colleagues. Coming to the Hamptons two times a week, experience. . . pocket change? Thanks very much. Peace, Barbara "Single Mothers play an important role in society raising the next generation. . . and deserve recognition and respect, not ecnomic hardship." Joy Magezis Barbara J. Peters, Assistant Professor Social Sciences Division Long Island University - Southampton 239 Montauk Highway Southampton, NY 11968 (516) 287-8236 FAX: (516) 287-8203 e-mail bpeters@southampton.liunet.edu "Single Mothers play an important role in society raising the next generation. . . and deserve recognition and respect, not ecnomic hardship." Joy Magezis Barbara J. Peters, Assistant Professor Social Sciences Division Long Island University - Southampton 239 Montauk Highway Southampton, NY 11968 (516) 287-8236 FAX: (516) 287-8203 e-mail bpeters@southampton.liunet.edu From tgoettler@oise.utoronto.ca Tue Aug 11 07:29:47 1998 Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:28:59 -0400 (EDT) From: ncel To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Experiment! In-Reply-To: On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Jean Czerlinski wrote: > > Use your first impulse to answer: > > > > Think of a fruit. > > > On Tuesday, August 11, 1998 Tom Goettler wrote ORANGE Respectfully, Tom Goettler > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > > > . > > > . > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > Without any preceding mathematics or special priming, I would bet that > most people will say "apple," a few will say "orange", and about 10% will > name other fruits (banana [technically not a fruit], grapes, peaches, > strawberries[my personal favorite fruit, but I still think of apples > first]). > > If my guess is right, it's because of psychology's "prototype" theory of > categories. That is, for most categories we call up a certain image which > has most of the "typical" (often but not necessarily "average") qualities > for members of that category. When we encounter new objects, e.g. new > edible plant parts, we classify them according to how similar they are to > our prototypes-- "Is this more like an apple [call it a fruit] or a carrot > [call it a vegetable]." Of course, different cultures have different > prototypes, and even individuals can differ somewhat or change prototypes > according to context. > > [I don't mean prototype in the Jungian sense.] > > None of this is a real explanation for *why* our brains work this way-- I'm > not trying to make some deep statement here! I just wanted to say I don't > think it needs a complicated theory like Freudianism. > > Cheers, > > Jean > > > From meisel@sobek.Colorado.EDU Tue Aug 11 09:06:13 1998 Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:06:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Meisel Joshua To: Sociology Graduate Students - International Subject: We're back; request (fwd) This is an informative electronic newsletter which might be of interest to some newsletters... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua S. Meisel Meisel@Colorado.EDU Graduate Student, Department of Sociology University of Colorado, Boulder Office: (303)492-6269 Fax: (303)492-8878 * WWW Home Page URL http://socsci.colorado.edu/~meisel/Home.html * LISTSERVE ANNOUNCEMENT: FOCUS ON THE CORPORATION Corp-Focus is a moderated listserve which distributes the weekly column "Focus on the Corporation," co-authored by Russell Mokhiber, editor of Corporate Crime Reporter, and Robert Weissman, editor of Multinational Monitor magazine. To subscribe to Corp-Focus, send an e-mail message to listproc@essential.org with the following all in one line: subscribe corp-focus Focus on the Corporation scrutinizes the multinational corporation -- the most powerful institution of our time. Once a week, it reports and comments critically on corporate actions, plans, abuses and trends. Written with a sharp edge and occasional irreverency, Focus on the Corporation covers: * The double standards which excuse corporations for behavior (e.g., causing injury, accepting welfare) widely considered criminal or shameful when done by individuals; * Globalization and corporate power; * Trends in corporate economic blackmail, political influence and workplace organization; * Industry-wide efforts to escape regulation, silence critics, employ new technologies or consolidate business among a few companies; * Specific, extreme examples of corporate abuses: destruction of communities, trampling of democracy, poisoning of air and water; * Issues, such as tort reform, of across-the-board interest to business; and * The corporatization of our culture. Please post this notice on relevant lists, and accept our apologies for cross-posting. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Aug 11 15:49:21 1998 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 17:48:26 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: H-ETHNIC: Mullen's review of Berger. An Essay on Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social Structure. (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Things are slow, so ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:14:35 -0400 Reply-To: Richard Jensen Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: Richard Jensen Subject: H-ETHNIC: Mullen's review of Berger. An Essay on Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social Structure. To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU [this was sent to the list three years ago and is reprinted for the benefit of newer subscribers in these dog days of summer. RJ] Bennett M. Berger. An Essay on Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social Structure. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995. xiii + 192 pp. Bibliography and index. $40.00 (cloth), ISBN 0-520-20016-0; $15.00 (paper), ISBN 0-520-20017-9. Reviewed by Bill Mullen, Youngstown State University. Published by H-Ethnic (September, 1995) The sociologist Bennett Berger's distinguished career work has at least two persisting themes. One is an attempt to continue the tradition of critical interpretation of culture as a tension between "ideal" and "material" value that is at the heart of work by his intellectual influences and mentors, Max Weber and Pierre Bourdieu most prominently. The second is more unique and idiosyncratic to Berger's own sociological method: the articulation of what he calls "ideological work," defined as the apparent or covert self or group interest manifested both in the public sphere during processes of cultural production and debate and within the discipline of academic sociology itself. These two themes appeared in nascent form in his first book, Working-Class Suburb (University of California, 1960) in which Berger both confirmed and challenged the prevailing ideological bias in emerging sociological scholarship about the evolving American suburbs. A study of auto workers in a newly-formed California suburb, the book argued that despite the apparent status of affluence and creeping hegemony attached to suburban living auto workers there retained a strong sense of working-class culture and identity: material and ideal values were in apparent conflicting ascent. At the same time the book challenged the sociological consensus about the expanding American middle-class already hardening around the massively influential work of William Whyte, offering an example, albeit a limited one, of how sociologists needed to study dissenting "subcultures" within their categorization of social phenomenon if those categorizations were to be upheld. Berger's other books, including The Survival of a Counterculture (University of California, 1981), a study of rural communards in California, have elaborated and persuasively demonstrated the usefulness of these ideas, marking him as both a major figure and a minor rebel in the discipline at the forefront of what he calls the democratization, relativization and differentiation of culture. Throughout, Berger has remained a materialist on cultural matters, a self-described "interpretive humanist" (p. 70) with determinist leanings, and a progressive culturologist with a keen sense of intellectual play. Put another way, Berger is something of a disinterested academic populist. Having retired from the University of California at San Diego in 1991, Berger has now written what he says could be his last book. It is, fittingly, quirky and prescient, and sometimes modestly brilliant. An Essay on Culture is both a casual summation of lifelong intellectual pursuits and a salvo in the "culture wars" both academic and otherwise. At its heart, the book intends to prod sociology and its practitioners to, in Jeffrey Alexander's words, "reintegrate subjective voluntarism and objective constraint" (p. 75) by unpacking the relationship between culture and society, the "symbolic structure and social structure" of the subtitle. Put as plainly as he does it, Berger wants to describe and create a "sociology of culture." His method is analysis and rumination, c.f. Raymond William's Culture and Society, on the evolution of historical definitions of culture, their relationship to sociology as presently practiced, and more broadly, the present historical and intellectual moment. While that moment is never brought into clear focus, its features are recognizably postmodern. The book proposes that culture is increasingly undistinguishable from ideology, and that the best sociological work (Howard Becker and Bruno Latour, for example) foregrounds that transformation. "By connecting social structures to symbolic structures," he writes, "They promote the transformation of culture into ideologies, consent into contest, unity into diversity, and traditional consensus into points of view that need to be defended with reason and evidence" (p. 131). Berger offers contemporary debate about multiculturalism as his paradigmatic example of the postmodern culture war, where tensions between unity and diversity, consent and contest are writ large. Berger astutely notes that the debate pits two historical notions of culture transformed by discursive heat into blatant ideology. On one side is the social scientist notion of culture as "normative ways of life," the lynchpin of pro-multiculturalist argument for inclusion of marginalized, obscured and subaltern cultural texts and practices; on the other side is "humanist" culture, the line spawned by Matthew Arnold's definition of culture as the "best that has been thought and said," a definition to which Great Books advocates like Allen Bloom are permanently beholden. Berger wades cheerfully into this debate offering critique and encouragement to both sides. "The culture wars" he writes, "are now apparently a permanent part of the social process, and ideological work has become a major occupation" (p. 52). Yet rather than take sides, he accentuates what is virtuous and clear-headed about both camps. His objective, he notes, is not polemic but an interrogation of freedom, to which a sociology of culture can and should best work. Indulging himself in what he calls "metaphysical pathos," he earnestly, grandiosely proposes this: "we conceive culture, ideology, and interests as analytic elements of a continuous historical process through which societies, with blood, sweat, and tears, struggle toward their concepts of the true, the beautiful, and the good" (p. 39). This curious blend of Weberian cultural critique and romantic Hegelianism inspires Berger to search out and identify constructive sites of such struggle in both contemporary culture and academic sociology. Several are named in the least inspired part of the book, section two, where Berger offers brief reviews of relatively recent sociological studies which, by his schema, do virtuous cultural work by amplifying understanding of the nexus between social and symbolic structure. Recent books by Kristin Lukin, Paull Willis and, somewhat distractingly, Berger's colleague/wife Chandra Mukerji are presented as examples. Berger also undergirds this section with high praise for the lasting contributions of both Herbert Gans and Pierre Bourdieu, whose work on the relationship between status, culture and ideology gives Berger his best models of a proactive sociology of culture. But Berger's most useful and broad-reaching argument for humanities scholars is his re-framing of culture, and cultural debate, within a wide, interdisciplinary matrix. He cites both Cultural Studies' close readings of cultural artifacts and multiculturalists' expansive definitions of the "normative" as new phases in the cyclical reevaluation of culture that work against determinist models, be they biological, material, or New Critical. Yet he also chastises both for too narrowly defining culture as "art," urging humanities scholars to cross-talk towards integrative definitions. Too, Berger often brilliantly decodes contemporary political debate as a mask for cultural ideology: religion and nationalism/patriotism, on the rise in the U.S., "probably constitute the most powerful examples of culture exercising apparently independent symbolic force" (p. 153). Berger's healthy anti-hegemonic spirit also offers up salient old/new left insights. America, he notes, is an "idealist" country where "I believe" carries more weight than "I am a product of" (hence the difficulty and challenge of selling structural analysis to the masses). And in a post-Reagan era of laissez-faire theology, Berger notes, "Freedom of choice is increasingly framed, in the U.S. at least, as consumer choice" (p. 151). Berger is at other times apparently unfamiliar with texts and ideas that would both bolster and undermine some of his arguments and interpretations of culture. His discussions of cultural studies, for example, elide that discipline's foundation in analysis of "social structures" (particularly working-class ones) that provide excellent models for a "sociology of culture" Berger is clamoring for. He also rarely cites scholarship at the forefront of "multicultural" debate: Gerald Graff, Stanley Aronowitz, Janice Radway, Fredric Jameson, Henry Louis Gates Jr., Gayatri Spivak, Nellie McKay, Paul Lauter, Catherine Stimpson, Lizabeth Cohen, Ron Takaki and Werner Sollers are just some of a much longer list of missing names whose career writings have been very much devoted to the kind of "interpretive humanism" Berger longs for. These omissions are particularly glaring in a section where Berger seems to endorse Russell Jacoby's argument in his much-debated The Last Intellectuals that post-60s intellectual discourse has moved out of the public sphere, into the University, and hence away from an experiential investment in the "world." Contrarily, both the feminist claim that the "personal is political" and the multiculturalist insistence on identity politics, autobiography and critical "positionalities" (see queer theory, for example) are precisely reforged examples of intellectual discourse AS public discourse: the wedding of ideas and artifacts to the social order; symbolic structure as social structure. By himself staying too firmly within the historical boundaries of sociology as a discipline, Berger fails to connect up with and benefit from the specific works and practices of these potential allies in the struggle for a "sociology of culture." Yet his book still makes a valuable contribution to their projects of close examination of the interrelated formation of political and cultural consciousness and calling to account the constant interpolation and interpenetration of ideology and "everyday life." In doing so Berger reminds us that culturology and cultural studies are in many ways the realms where the most complex and productive arguments and understandings are made about what he has presciently called throughout his admirable career "ideological work." An Essay on Culture is a fine contribution not only to all humanities disciplines invested in identifying this work, but an original rumination on one possible way to begin to map their interrelation. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Library of Congress call number: HM101.B4717 1995 Subjects: Culture Social structure Citation: Bill Mullen . "Review of Bennett M. Berger, An Essay on Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social Structure," H-Ethnic, H-Net Reviews, September, 1995. URL: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=21596902438204. Copyright © 1995, H-Net, all rights reserved. This work may be copied for non-profit educational use if proper credit is given to the author and the list. For other permission questions, please contact hbooks@h-net.msu.edu. From weberian@arches.uga.edu Tue Aug 11 18:30:53 1998 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:30:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "James J. Dowd" To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: H-ETHNIC: Mullen's review of Berger. An Essay on Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social Structure. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <980811.174844.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> The Berger book is a very cranky effort and not a particularly gracious book. The criticism of Kristen Luker as an ideologue I thought to be especially unnecessary. When I read this book, I had the nagging feeling that it was so quirky the only way to make sense of it was to see it as the revengeful last book of an neo-conservative, old white guy sociologist. Now clearly Berger is more than this, and he may not even be that at all; the point is, however, that his book reads as if it were written by just such a person. I didn't like it at all. Jim Dowd. On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Alan Davidson wrote: > Things are slow, so ... > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:14:35 -0400 > Reply-To: Richard Jensen > Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History > From: Richard Jensen > Subject: H-ETHNIC: Mullen's review of Berger. An Essay on Culture: > Symbolic Structure and Social Structure. > To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU > > [this was sent to the list three years ago and is reprinted for the > benefit > of newer subscribers in these dog days of summer. RJ] > > Bennett M. Berger. An Essay on Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social > Structure. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995. xiii + 192 > pp. Bibliography and index. $40.00 (cloth), ISBN 0-520-20016-0; $15.00 > (paper), ISBN 0-520-20017-9. > Reviewed by Bill Mullen, Youngstown State University. > Published by H-Ethnic (September, 1995) > > The sociologist Bennett Berger's distinguished career work has at > least two persisting themes. One is an attempt to continue the > tradition of critical interpretation of culture as a tension between > "ideal" and "material" value that is at the heart of work by his > intellectual influences and mentors, Max Weber and Pierre Bourdieu > most prominently. > > The second is more unique and idiosyncratic to Berger's own > sociological method: the articulation of what he calls "ideological > work," defined as the apparent or covert self or group interest > manifested both in the public sphere during processes of cultural > production and debate and within the discipline of academic sociology > itself. > > These two themes appeared in nascent form in his first book, > Working-Class Suburb (University of California, 1960) in which Berger > both confirmed and challenged the prevailing ideological bias in > emerging sociological scholarship about the evolving American suburbs. > A study of auto workers in a newly-formed California suburb, the book > argued that despite the apparent status of affluence and creeping > hegemony attached to suburban living auto workers there retained a > strong sense of working-class culture and identity: material and ideal > values were in apparent conflicting ascent. At the same time the book > challenged the sociological consensus about the expanding American > middle-class already hardening around the massively influential work > of William Whyte, offering an example, albeit a limited one, of how > sociologists needed to study dissenting "subcultures" within their > categorization of social phenomenon if those categorizations were to > be upheld. > > Berger's other books, including The Survival of a Counterculture > (University of California, 1981), a study of rural communards in > California, have elaborated and persuasively demonstrated the > usefulness of these ideas, marking him as both a major figure and a > minor rebel in the discipline at the forefront of what he calls the > democratization, relativization and differentiation of culture. > Throughout, Berger has remained a materialist on cultural matters, a > self-described "interpretive humanist" (p. 70) with determinist > leanings, and a progressive culturologist with a keen sense of > intellectual play. Put another way, Berger is something of a > disinterested academic populist. > > Having retired from the University of California at San Diego in 1991, > Berger has now written what he says could be his last book. It is, > fittingly, quirky and prescient, and sometimes modestly brilliant. An > Essay on Culture is both a casual summation of lifelong intellectual > pursuits and a salvo in the "culture wars" both academic and > otherwise. At its heart, the book intends to prod sociology and its > practitioners to, in Jeffrey Alexander's words, "reintegrate > subjective voluntarism and objective constraint" (p. 75) by unpacking > the relationship between culture and society, the "symbolic structure > and social structure" of the subtitle. Put as plainly as he does it, > Berger wants to describe and create a "sociology of culture." His > method is analysis and rumination, c.f. Raymond William's Culture and > Society, on the evolution of historical definitions of culture, their > relationship to sociology as presently practiced, and more broadly, > the present historical and intellectual moment. While that moment is > never brought into clear focus, its features are recognizably > postmodern. The book proposes that culture is increasingly > undistinguishable from ideology, and that the best sociological work > (Howard Becker and Bruno Latour, for example) foregrounds that > transformation. "By connecting social structures to symbolic > structures," he writes, "They promote the transformation of culture > into ideologies, consent into contest, unity into diversity, and > traditional consensus into points of view that need to be defended > with reason and evidence" (p. 131). > > Berger offers contemporary debate about multiculturalism as his > paradigmatic example of the postmodern culture war, where tensions > between unity and diversity, consent and contest are writ large. > Berger astutely notes that the debate pits two historical notions of > culture transformed by discursive heat into blatant ideology. On one > side is the social scientist notion of culture as "normative ways of > life," the lynchpin of pro-multiculturalist argument for inclusion of > marginalized, obscured and subaltern cultural texts and practices; on > the other side is "humanist" culture, the line spawned by Matthew > Arnold's definition of culture as the "best that has been thought and > said," a definition to which Great Books advocates like Allen Bloom > are permanently beholden. > > Berger wades cheerfully into this debate offering critique and > encouragement to both sides. "The culture wars" he writes, "are now > apparently a permanent part of the social process, and ideological > work has become a major occupation" (p. 52). Yet rather than take > sides, he accentuates what is virtuous and clear-headed about both > camps. His objective, he notes, is not polemic but an interrogation of > freedom, to which a sociology of culture can and should best work. > Indulging himself in what he calls "metaphysical pathos," he > earnestly, grandiosely proposes this: "we conceive culture, ideology, > and interests as analytic elements of a continuous historical process > through which societies, with blood, sweat, and tears, struggle toward > their concepts of the true, the beautiful, and the good" (p. 39). > > This curious blend of Weberian cultural critique and romantic > Hegelianism inspires Berger to search out and identify constructive > sites of such struggle in both contemporary culture and academic > sociology. Several are named in the least inspired part of the book, > section two, where Berger offers brief reviews of relatively recent > sociological studies which, by his schema, do virtuous cultural work > by amplifying understanding of the nexus between social and symbolic > structure. Recent books by Kristin Lukin, Paull Willis and, somewhat > distractingly, Berger's colleague/wife Chandra Mukerji are presented > as examples. Berger also undergirds this section with high praise for > the lasting contributions of both Herbert Gans and Pierre Bourdieu, > whose work on the relationship between status, culture and ideology > gives Berger his best models of a proactive sociology of culture. > > But Berger's most useful and broad-reaching argument for humanities > scholars is his re-framing of culture, and cultural debate, within a > wide, interdisciplinary matrix. He cites both Cultural Studies' close > readings of cultural artifacts and multiculturalists' expansive > definitions of the "normative" as new phases in the cyclical > reevaluation of culture that work against determinist models, be they > biological, material, or New Critical. Yet he also chastises both for > too narrowly defining culture as "art," urging humanities scholars to > cross-talk towards integrative definitions. Too, Berger often > brilliantly decodes contemporary political debate as a mask for > cultural ideology: religion and nationalism/patriotism, on the rise in > the U.S., "probably constitute the most powerful examples of culture > exercising apparently independent symbolic force" (p. 153). Berger's > healthy anti-hegemonic spirit also offers up salient old/new left > insights. America, he notes, is an "idealist" country where "I > believe" carries more weight than "I am a product of" (hence the > difficulty and challenge of selling structural analysis to the > masses). And in a post-Reagan era of laissez-faire theology, Berger > notes, "Freedom of choice is increasingly framed, in the U.S. at > least, as consumer choice" (p. 151). > > Berger is at other times apparently unfamiliar with texts and ideas > that would both bolster and undermine some of his arguments and > interpretations of culture. His discussions of cultural studies, for > example, elide that discipline's foundation in analysis of "social > structures" (particularly working-class ones) that provide excellent > models for a "sociology of culture" Berger is clamoring for. He also > rarely cites scholarship at the forefront of "multicultural" debate: > Gerald Graff, Stanley Aronowitz, Janice Radway, Fredric Jameson, Henry > Louis Gates Jr., Gayatri Spivak, Nellie McKay, Paul Lauter, Catherine > Stimpson, Lizabeth Cohen, Ron Takaki and Werner Sollers are just some > of a much longer list of missing names whose career writings have been > very much devoted to the kind of "interpretive humanism" Berger longs > for. These omissions are particularly glaring in a section where > Berger seems to endorse Russell Jacoby's argument in his much-debated > The Last Intellectuals that post-60s intellectual discourse has moved > out of the public sphere, into the University, and hence away from an > experiential investment in the "world." Contrarily, both the feminist > claim that the "personal is political" and the multiculturalist > insistence on identity politics, autobiography and critical > "positionalities" (see queer theory, for example) are precisely > reforged examples of intellectual discourse AS public discourse: the > wedding of ideas and artifacts to the social order; symbolic structure > as social structure. > > By himself staying too firmly within the historical boundaries of > sociology as a discipline, Berger fails to connect up with and benefit > from the specific works and practices of these potential allies in the > struggle for a "sociology of culture." Yet his book still makes a > valuable contribution to their projects of close examination of the > interrelated formation of political and cultural consciousness and > calling to account the constant interpolation and interpenetration of > ideology and "everyday life." In doing so Berger reminds us that > culturology and cultural studies are in many ways the realms where the > most complex and productive arguments and understandings are made > about what he has presciently called throughout his admirable career > "ideological work." An Essay on Culture is a fine contribution not > only to all humanities disciplines invested in identifying this work, > but an original rumination on one possible way to begin to map their > interrelation. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Library of Congress call number: HM101.B4717 1995 > Subjects: > Culture > Social structure > Citation: Bill Mullen . "Review of Bennett M. Berger, An Essay on > Culture: Symbolic Structure and Social Structure," H-Ethnic, H-Net > Reviews, September, 1995. URL: > http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=21596902438204. > > Copyright © 1995, H-Net, all rights reserved. This work may be copied > for non-profit educational use if proper credit is given to the author > and the list. For other permission questions, please contact > hbooks@h-net.msu.edu. > ''' (o o) ---------------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------------- J. J. Dowd Department of Sociology University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-1611 (706) 542-3231 "It is not necessary to hope in order to undertake, nor to succeed in order to persevere." -Pascal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- () () From LIKME@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Tue Aug 11 20:04:14 1998 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 21:55:40 EDT From: Lloyd Klein Subject: SSSP Reception To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU I noticed that the list was somewhat slow and many individuals are readying their departures for the SSSP/ASA meetings in San Francisco. This announcement may bear some interest for folks headed to the Bay Area next week: The SSSP Sexual Behavior, Politics, and Communities Division will co-sponsor a reception with the Drugs and Drinking Division during the upcoming annual meeting in San Francisco. Meet PJ McGann, the incoming SBPC division chair, and catch up on the ongoing division activities. Our student paper winner will receive her award at that time. Come join us on August 20th from 6-8pm at Johnny Foley's Irish House. The address is 243 O'Farrell Street. Invite your friends and colleagues. We have a cash bar and a substantial array of food will be served for your dining needs. Lloyd Klein Chair, SBPC Division From tr@tryoung.com Thu Aug 13 05:09:57 1998 (usr-mtp-69.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.69]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:06:22 -0400 To: msection@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: The Coming of the End of Days Dear Friends: Sometime ago I decided to use my travel funds to SF this year for a grad student room...I've done a lot at ASA...for a lot of years... It is time for me to step back and let others have their time in the sun... I'm busy and happy working on Red Feather business and, then too, I'd had a lot of good times at a lot of meetings. I've decided to fund a Grad Student room at every ASA Conference as well as Midwest, the Humanist and SSSP meetings around the year...I may go myself now and then as funds and energy permit but from now on, members of the Section can count on the funds for a room for three or four of their grad students...at the meetings above... Just contact me and I'll name a grad student to co-ordinate at each new meeting. Finally, Marxist theory and Marxist Praxis remains close to my heart and central to my work...and will be as long as capitalism remains to exploit and oppress the human spirit. ....or as Diderot might have said, 'Until the last capitalist is hung with the guts of the last Bigot.' My missions for the Red Feather Institute remain as respository for whatever energy, genius and insight I might be able to marshall over the remainder of my life: 1. To transform American Sociology into a much more praxical and much more activist discipline. 2. To help renew Marxist theory; to keep it useful as we move into the 21st Century. 3. To promote and provide a forum for new and promising theories/perspectives/voices now marginalized in both Mainline sociology and in Marxist Theory. Its been good working with you all, and I look forward to working with you for a lot of years to come, TR PS: For those of you with a sense of humor, you might like to know that I was candidate for Chair of the Marxist Section that first year Al Syzmanski, Ted Goertzal, I and others organized it... ....Ted won...I was pleased. I really don't like doing anything but writing and teaching and working with the RFI...all else is a distraction to me. My very best to each of you always, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Aug 13 08:48:54 1998 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:48:49 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: one year position (fwd) FYI - James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:43:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Rachel Rosenfeld To: uncsocgs@unc.edu, socfac@unc.edu Subject: one year position (fwd) The department of Sociology at SUNY Geneseo has received authorization for a one year sabbatical replacement position. The courses for fall would be two sections of intro soc and one section of sociology of medicine (upper level). The spring courses may be somewhat flexible, but the person on leave usually teaches urban. The college is a public 4 year liberal arts school. While we are in a small town, we are 30 minutes from Rochester. The department has 12 faculty, 6 of whom are women. You can find out more at our web site http://www.geneseo.edu/~soc/ I will be at the SSSP meetings, as will Elaine Cleeton, & Paula Rust. Paula, Steve Derne, Denise Scott, and Kurt Cylke, will be at the ASA. We will not be recruiting at the meetings, but if you are interested or have a student who might be look us up! Send a CV and letter of application to David Gordon, Chair at the address below. Pat Pat Murphy, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Sociology Sociology Dept SUNY Geneseo Geneseo, NY 14454 murphy@uno.cc.geneseo.edu 716-245-5324 From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Aug 13 14:37:42 1998 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 16:33:55 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Sign of the times To: gradtalk@uvvm.uvic.ca, socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU The names are stripped -- mind you this is for a 1 year appointment advertised on the net -- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:11:15 -0400 Reply-To: TEACHSOC@listserv.lemoyne.edu To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Re: Position Dear ____________, I am very interested in the position you announced on TEACHSOC. I have a Ph.D. and twelve years's experience teaching sociology; I just finished a two-year visiting position at _________________________ (a U.S. News & World Reports top 25 liberal arts college). I do a very strong intro course that gets very postive student responses (and converts to the major). I do not do medical sociology, but can offer a wide range of other courses, including environmental sociology (an area of special strength), self and society, sociology of culture, inequality, urban sociology, theory, qualitative methodology/fieldwork, social problems, etc., and willingness to consider other areas of interest such as social movements and work and organizations. I teach interactive courses that engage students through a variety of modes of learning and combine areas of interest to students with strong attention to essentials of the discipline in each course area. I would like to talk further with you about this, if this background is of interest. I can be reached at ____________. Best wishes, From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Fri Aug 14 15:20:29 1998 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:19:36 -0500 From: Bob Woldman To: "soc-grad@mail.la.utexas.edu" , socgrad - international listserv for soc grads Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Why God didn't get a PHD]] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------963B164B6CA5C3B31E1FB2C0 Perhaps this would better be titled, "Why God never got tenure." -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates (Plato THE APOLOGY) --------------963B164B6CA5C3B31E1FB2C0 Return-Path: Delivered-To: bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:47:58 -0500 From: Russell Huff Reply-To: itmhuff@flash.net To: David Woldman Subject: For Bob [Fwd: Why God didn't get a PHD] Path: excalibur.flash.net!nntp.flash.net!newsfeed.wli.net!208.10.192.30!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: chucklelist-owner@makelist.com Newsgroups: alt.humor,alt.humor.puns,alt.humor.parodies,alt.comedy.standup Subject: Why God didn't get a PHD Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:47:14 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.55.75.41 X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; MSN 2.5; Windows 95) Xref: excalibur.flash.net alt.humor:31467 alt.humor.puns:56058 alt.humor.parodies:1523 alt.comedy.standup:39597 WHY GOD NEVER GOT A PHD 1. He had only one major publication. 2. It was in Hebrew. 3. It had no references. 4. It wasn't published in a refered journal. 5. Some even doubt he wrote it by himself. 6. It may be true that he created the world, but what has he done since then? 8. The scientific community has had a hard time replicating his results. 9. He never applied to the ethics board for permission to use human subjects. 10. When one experiment went awry he tried to cover it by drowning his subjects. 11. When subjects didn't behave as predicted, he deleted them from the sample. 12. He rarely came to class, just told students to read the book. 13. Some say he had his son teach the class 14. He expelled his first two students for learning. 15. Although there were only 10 requirements, most of his students failed his tests. 16. His office hours were infrequent and often held on Limited access mountain tops. 17. No record of working well with colleagues. 0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0! Subscribe to The Chucklelist, the web's PREMIER daily humor list! Sent daily STRAIGHT to your email address! simply send email to chucklelist-subscribe@makelist.com 0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0!0! -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum --------------963B164B6CA5C3B31E1FB2C0-- From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Fri Aug 14 18:16:27 1998 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:16:22 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Why God didn't get a PHD]] In-Reply-To: <35D4A9E7.C97CCF7F@mail.utexas.edu> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Bob Woldman wrote: > Perhaps this would better be titled, "Why God never got tenure." > It has been. James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From kbump@northlink.com Sat Aug 15 13:08:22 1998 Reply-To: From: "KC Bump" To: Subject: SF-ASA meeting - Room crisis Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:14:49 -0700 Dear Soc Grad members: This is Saturday and I just found out that my reservations for a room in SF is non-existant. I started calling hostels in June and made reservations at the European Guest House. I then called in July and they did not have my name so again I made reservations and gave them my phone number and was told that I did not need to do anything else. Today I called again to be sure and was told that my name was not in the reservation book. The gentleman hung up on me. I have called all of the other hostels and they are all booked up. I don't know what to do. My husband is a jazz saxophonist and I am the Director for a small rural program serving the elderly. We have a pretty tight budget which is why I was reserving at the hostels. Do you know anywhere we might check for a room $250-$300 for the week? I have called the ASA office as well and left a message. I think that they should be aware that the European Guest House is a bad referral. Thanks in advance for any help you can give. "KC" Karen Bump kbump@northlink.com From danryan@mills.edu Sat Aug 15 15:17:44 1998 Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:15:11 -0700 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: danryan@mills.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: SF-ASA meeting - Room crisis The San Francisco Convention & Visitors Bureau provides a city-wide hotel reservation system that will assist leisure visitors with finding hotel reservations in San Francisco. With one call to the toll-free number 1-888-782-9673 (1-888-STAY-N-SF) callers can make reservations at their choice of over 70 participating hotels http://www.hostels.com/us.ca.sf.html Hotels http://www.sftravel.com/bgt.html Budget hotels http://sfo.sftravel.com/bedbk.html B&B's http://www.hotelres.com/ On line reservation system. From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 17 05:48:18 1998 (usr-mtp-10.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.10]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:44:43 -0400 To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: To Purge or Not to Prejure: Cost and Profit socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Ay, that's the question. Mr. Clinton has a choice to make today; but whatever he does or says, he has lost great esteem and has eroded much of the social and moral power vested in the Presidency of the United States. I presume, as do many Americans, that Mr. Clinton lied about his sexual exploitations in the White House. I presume that Mr. Clinton, as has a great many Americans, lied to his spouse, to his publics and to his children about his sexual encounters outside of his marriage. I assume, as I expect most Americans assume, that lying to one's spouse about sexual delinquencies is not grounds for impeachment and removal of an incumbent President from Office...that the welfare of the Country, generally, takes precedence over the tawdry behaviors of the incumbent. Yet Republicans and a great many others think that Mr. Clinton's delicts are far more serious than 'mere' infidelity: a. Many of us think that sexual exploitation of employees and others low on a stratification system is very much different from a private citizen cheating on his/her spouse. We might well agree that infidelity is something best left to spouse and/or friends but abuse of social or use of physical force to extort sexual services is proper cause for removal...of anyone in any position of power. b. Many of us think that the Presidency embodies the status honor of the American People and that Mr. Clinton has left a stain on it which will be hard to remove. c. Many of us take the position that marriage vows are sacred and that no-one should take them lightly as, as it appears, Mr. Clinton has done...repeatedly. The only small redeeming aspect of his behaviors, as far as we know, is that he hasn't interferred in other marriages...that he has put his own in jeopardy but that is, in the first instance, the proper concern of Ms. Clinton. So......what will he do today; purge or prejure himself?? My own assumption is that he will purge himself and ask for pardon from his wife, his child and from American Citizens. If he does, he should apologize to Ms. Lewinsky and, by extension, to all of the other women he has both exploited and degraded by his lying about their veracity. If he does, may he find enough peace to prevent other such. If he prejures himself, I expect Republicans, Conservative Democrats and skittish politicians up for re-election will abandon him to his fate. If he does, he has earned whatever fate he suffers. I doubt very, very much he will be impeached: 50% of the Congress, 60% of the Senate and 70% of the media have lied as much, fornicated as much, exploited and betrayed as much as has Mr. Clinton...they will not want to 'cast the first, second or third stone' since they will surely have stones cast at them by their own judges and juries. I have no sympathy for Clinton...if he purges himself, I shan't change my opinion of him as a deeply stupid, illiberal, self- serving sordid lickspittle. If he prejures himself, I shan't join the clamorous quarrel of those who see political profit to be made for their own career or for their own private bigotted enterprize. It is a most distasteful episode. There is no moral high-ground for anyone concerned to take: not Kenneth Starr, not Ms. Lewinsky, Not the Senate nor yet the American people. I would hope we can elect a better human being in future ....that would be a collective benefit from all this. I do not want to guess how likely that might be. TRYoung TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From ghamsa2n@aramco.com.sa Mon Aug 17 06:54:21 1998 by sp2tr37.tcc.dha.aramco.com.sa (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) From: ghamsa2n@aramco.com.sa (Saleh A. Al-Ghamdi) To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:54:09 +0300 In Arabic, one says it this way: "Ahlan wa sahlan, ya talameeth el-Aalam" -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 5:38 PM To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie I need a bit of help. I'm re-designing the HomePage of the RFI. I'd like to put a welcome to students in their own language. How does one say: WELCOME, STUDENTS of the World in French, in German, in Hindi, in Chinese and in Swahili?? ....or any other major language of which you have some grasp. thanks much, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 17 08:02:30 1998 (usr-mtp-15.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.15]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:58:57 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: RE: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie In-Reply-To: <01BDC9F7.470D4900.ghamsa2n@aramco.com.sa> Thank you...I've added it. TR At 03:54 PM 8/17/98 +0300, you wrote: >In Arabic, one says it this way: >"Ahlan wa sahlan, ya talameeth el-Aalam" > >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 5:38 PM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: How does one say...Como se dice...wie sagan sie > >I need a bit of help. > >I'm re-designing the HomePage of the RFI. > >I'd like to put a welcome to students in >their own language. > >How does one say: > >WELCOME, STUDENTS of the World > >in French, in German, in Hindi, in Chinese and in Swahili?? > >...or any other major language of which you have some grasp. > > thanks much, TR >TR Young, 8085 Essex >Weidman, Mi., 48893 >Email: tr@tryoung.com > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From j-czerlinski@uchicago.edu Mon Aug 17 12:44:58 1998 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:43:14 -0500 (CDT) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: j-czerlinski@uchicago.edu (Jean Czerlinski) Subject: evolutionary psychology (fwd) Let's please not make this into a huge raging battle, but here's some food for thought on "the biology question".... Jean > __________________________ > > Evolutionary Psychology -- A Manifesto > > (Synopsis of an invited talk at the Evolutionary Cognition Session > of the Cognitive Science Society Conference) > > Elliott Sober > Philosophy Department > University of Wisconsin, Madison 53706 > ersober@facstaff.wisc.edu > > August 3, 1998 > > In the history of science, scientists sometimes have abandoned a > research program because they have systematically explored its basic > tenets without making any progress in solving problems. Perhaps > phrenology was abandoned for this type of reason. One of the basic > tenets was that different bumps on the head are associated with > different psychological attributes. The attempt to figure out which > bumps go with which traits never got very far. Eventually, scientists > gave up on this program, and rightly so. > > However, there is another pattern in the history of science. In this > second type of case, a research program is abandoned without its basic > tenets being much explored at all. I am concerned that this may be > the fate that awaits the research program of evolutionary psychology. > Books that popularize evolutionary psychology give the impression that > it is booming. But insiders know that only a handful of individuals > are doing research of > this sort. A look at the program of the present conference confirms > this. There is a great deal of hostility towards evolutionary > psychology in cognitive science. My worry is that this hostility will > kill this research program before enough people spend enough time > exploring how productive it can be. > > I do not associate evolutionary psychology with a specific set of > doctrines. Research programs are not the same as the specific theories > that are developed within a research program. Cosmides and Tooby are > the most prominent workers in evolutionary psychology, but their > claims do not define what the field is. Evolutionary psychologists > may debate hypotheses of modularity; they may be skeptical about > various adaptationist hypotheses. What they are committed to is the > fruitfulness of exploring the idea that the mind is the product of > evolution. Aside from creationists, I doubt that there are many > people who doubt that the mind evolved. However, there is a great > deal of skepticism with respect to a different claim -- that asking > evolutionary questions will elicit illuminating answers. With respect > to the question of whether there is a payoff to be had here, I suggest > a simple answer: the only way to find out is to try. No argument can > show a priori that evolutionary inquiry will be fruitless, nor can any > show that it must succeed. The fact that the mind > has evolved says nothing about whether present day science is in a > position to develop this idea in interesting ways. > > To further defend evolutionary psychology against premature burial, I > want to present four theses. I'd call these "truisms" instead of > theses, except for the fact that they seem not to be obvious to > workers in cognitive science. > > The first is this: Proximate and ultimate explanations are not in > conflict. Mayr, Tinbergen, and others have made this point repeatedly > and it is by now entirely standard. If you ask "Why do sunflowers > turn towards the sunlight?" your question may be answered in two > different ways. A plant physiologist may describe the proximate > mechanisms inside sunflowers that make them do this. An evolutionist, > on the other hand, may offer an ultimate explanation of why > phototropism evolved. A (true) evolutionary account will supplement > a (true) proximate account, not replace it. Evolutionary psychology > will not replace the parts of cognitive science that aim to > characterize proximate cognitive mechanisms. Rather, evolutionary > psychology aims to explain why one set of cognitive mechanisms > evolved, rather than another. > > My second thesis is this: There is more to evolution than natural > selection. Evolutionary psychology does not have to be adaptationist. > Adaptationism about this or that feature of the mind is a hypothesis > to be tested, not something to be assumed true (or assumed false) a > priori. As in the rest of biology, adaptationist hypotheses have to > be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Some adaptationist models for > some traits in some > lineages may be well supported by data. Others may not be. As Philip > Kitcher emphasized in his book on sociobiology, there is no magic > bullet. > > The third thesis is that work on the evolution of a phenotype does not > have to be postponed until the genetic and developmental features of > the phenotype are understood. It is worth remembering hat Darwin got > pretty far without knowing about Mendelism and that there has been > lots of useful phenotypic modeling since then that has proceeded in > the absence of genetic and developmental knowledge. The evolution of > helping behavior -- of "altruism" in the evolutionary sense of that > term -- is a good example. Of course, genetics and development are > needed if we are to have a full understanding of a phenotype. But > that doesn't mean that phenotypic questions can't be posed until these > details are in place. > > The fourth thesis: Gould and Lewontin did not prove that the concept > of adaptation is inherently bankrupt. What they did was criticize > some existing approaches to questions about adaptation and offer a > hypothesis about the evolutionary process. In the Spandrels paper, > they accept the Darwinian claim that natural selection is the most > important force in evolution; what they deny is that it is the only > important factor. > > Workers in cognitive science who wonder how hypotheses in evolutionary > psychology can be tested may want to look at what has happened to the > issue of testability in evolutionary biology. Biologists didn't stop > using the concept of adaptation after 1978, nor did they proceed just > as they had before. Rather, new and more sophisticated approaches to > the concept of adaptation were developed. The Gould and Lewontin > article was widely interpreted as a challenge to do better, and a > number of biologists tried to respond to this challenge. > > I see two interesting ideas at work in evolutionary biology now about > testability. The first idea > is to formulate adaptive hypotheses that make quantitative > predictions, not just qualitative predictions. Work on sex ratio > evolution provides an example. Optimality models in this area show > how different mixes of males and females in a population will be > optimal, depending on the pattern of mating. These models can be > tested by measuring the sex ratio and measuring the pattern of mating. > Although Gould and Lewontin rightly complain that it is often too easy > to invent "just-so" stories, I don't think that this complaint applies > to the case of sex ratio evolution. It isn't that easy to make up an > explanation of why the ratio of males to > females in our own species is slightly greater than unity at > conception and birth and declines towards unity at reproductive age. > > The second strategy is to formulate adaptive hypotheses so that they > cover a number of species, not just one. This permits comparative > data to be used and a whole raft of new methods has been invented to > deal with such data. Maybe it is easy to invent a number of adaptive > hypotheses to explain why human males are larger than human females. > However, it is harder to do so when the task is to explain why the > degree of size dimorphism is associated with the sex ratio in mating > groups in primates. Monogamous species tend to > have males and females with more similar body sizes than species in > which mating groups are made of more females than males. > > As both these examples illustrate, the way to respond to the Gould and > Lewontin challenge is not to abandon the goal of testing adaptive > hypotheses, but to reformulate them. If they make quantitative > predictions, and if they make claims about patterns that should exist > across a group of species, then it may not be so easy to invent > explanations that fit the data. > > Elliott Sober > ________________ > > From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Mon Aug 17 14:16:24 1998 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:16:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: evolutionary psychology (fwd) In-Reply-To: A fellow is on NPR right now who has done years of work looking at stress in primates. His studies of baboons shows that in a hierarchical system those baboons who are on top have much less stress and associated physiological problems. He notes, as he is describing all of this, that this is irrelevant for sapiens since there is no degree of inherent hierarchy mapped over our cognition or physiology. Rather, hierarchy for sapiens is socially imposed. One might say hierarchy is unnatural, except that to make this claim is to claim that hierarchy contradicts a non-entity, i.e., the lack of a nature, which verges on an absurd proposition. But, in any case, hierarchy is wrong and certainly not natural. There are two ways to approach developing a compelling case for claims about non-empirical realities. First, one can demonstrate through positive empirical demonstration and rigorous logic a causal relationship. Take two facts. Let's take the fact that, under capitalism, the productive means are controlled by a handful of individuals who appropriate the surplus production of the majority, and let's connect this fact with the fact that the distribution of wealth, under capitalism, is extremely unequal. We note that ownership is correlated with being on the higher end of the wealth continuum, whereas existence in a location dispossed of access to these means is correlated with being further down the wealth continuum, and that people who do not own any means, and are not producing for those who do, are on the very bottom. Therefore, elite monopoly over the means of production causes inequality. So the non-empirical reality, namely the causal relation between these two facts, is demonstrated by direct empirical evidence and logic. The second approach is more difficult and more epistemologically controversial (the previous example is controversial, but only because it threatens the material interests of the capitalist class). Here, because we cannot demonstrate matters directly empirically, we argue from necessity. We say, as Noam Chomsky does, that there must be some sort of inherent device, apparatus, or structure that makes possible the empirical, or surface, features we observe. In this case there must be empirical evidence, sure, but there needs to be more, namely, the explanation has to have no plausible rivals, it must explain more of what we observe than any other theory, it must carefully elaborate the logic of how one set of factors influences other sets of factors, and, some add, must do so in a parsimonious manner, although I don't think parsimony is that important. Evolutionary psychology, like all sociobiology, meets formidable barriers in both of these approaches. The first approach is completely out, since there is no direct evidence to support any claims made by sociobiologists. So it seems that the second approach is more promising, since the facts of aggregate human behavior may be explained by reference to some deep inherent structure we cannot see. But upon closer examination, by following the rules of the method of necessity, we find that this promise is empty. First, the evidence doesn't support the claims made by the sociobiologists, that is, there are no reasonable connections even indirectly demonstrable among the facts. Second, and more importantly, there is no reasonable elaboration of how genes might work to influence aggregate human behavior. Third, there are more reasonable and sound explanations that do not involve appeal to invisible physiological structures. Therefore, sociobiology, and its latest manifestation evolutionary psychology, remain only an ideological venture, and a reactionary one at that. Andy From rb6553a@american.edu Mon Aug 17 18:54:53 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:55:06 -0400 Subject: Re: TR's views on the current most important story on earth . . . TR and others: I know that everyone has an opinion on this whole sordid mess (actually, a number of messes). Let me address one thing in particular that you said. I for one do not believe that the President "embodies the status honor of the United States," for many reasons. First, assuming that I was concerned about the status honor of this country (reification problems aside) I would not be foolish enough to entrust it to one person. Second, I am well past the rose-colored glasses stage of high school history, where each president is presented in all his full glory, with nary a mention of his many faults (be it slave owning; starting a completely unjustified war with Spain; ordering break-ins of the opposing party's headquarters, etc.; shipping arms (and perhaps cocaine) in places where the American people and Congress did not want arms to go; or failing to realize, to quote another writer, that "mink coats don't 'trickle down'"). TR's conception reminds me of Harriet Martineau in "Society in America" complaining that the people didn't think for themselves politically because they worshipped George Washington. I say, thank god that era is finally behind us. Even after our presidents disappoint us, some still insist upon expecting some sort of moral/intellectual/political/military purity. This country is not respected (or worse) in a great deal of the rest of the world. This is not due to the fact that Clinton has "wandered." Rather, it is due to our expansionist, arrogant, "policeman of the world" attitudes and behaviors, among others. Clinton's approval rating is in the 60's, and most residents of most foreign countries polled (with exceptions such as the Turkish and the east Indians) support him as well on this matter. In sum, Clinton is not my "surrogat father" to whom I look for moral guidance. I find my role models in my daily life. One way to look at the current President's problems is in psychological terms. Commentators continue to speak of "character flaws" and "lapses in morality." These are not terribly useful. Clinton appears to me to suffer from some sort of compulsive disorder; look at his weight swings, his need for constant contact with the public, his dangerous sexual liasons. This is a personal psychological problem -- it has little to do with how he does his job. (In fact, it probably helps rather than hinders, on balance). I can accept that the President can't seem to keep his pants zipped. I truly don't care. As to the issue of misuse of power, I share your concern. However, only two people know exactly what that relationship was about, and how it came about (of course, they may have two different versions, and each one would be "right"). Ms. Lewinsky appears to be a bright, experienced woman. To assume that she had no part to play, that she caved in to the President's demands, is an assumption I will not make without more information. What I am much more concerned about is the state of this nation's legal system as well as its quality of journalism. Kenneth Starr has spent utold millions of dollars and thousands of hours on a flimsy case which, from the beginning, was obviously not going to implicate the President in any serious wrongdoing. I will not go on as to that point, except to say that the case bears a remarkable resemblance to the main plot of Victor Hugo's "Les Miserables." (The song "Stars" from the musical version (e.g., "he knows his way in the dark, but mine is the way of the Lord") could come right out of Ken's mouth. Clinton's act may be more malevolent that stealing bread to feed oneself; however, the response in the two cases appears to be proportionately similar. What is embarassing to this country is not that the President had sex with an intern (after all, that only reflects on the parties themselves); what is embarassing is the lengths to which this case has gone -- the waste of ink and air time (and now my time); the disrpution of the lives of many "innocent bystanders" (secretaries, etc.) who must pay thousands in attorneys fees; equally the absence of coverage of other stories much more critical (anyone read the report on global warming which basically snuffs out the last credible scientific argument against it?). If anyone is abusing his power, it is Mr. Starr, who has forced a mother to testify against her daughter, subpoenaed book purchase records, and caused dozens of people (many of whom are on the low end of the stratification system, TR) to spend time and money they did not have in order to hire counsel, etc. In addition, he likely has leaked testimony to the press, a clear violation of the law. (Not to mention his conflicts of interest). I believe that, five or ten years from now, we are going to look back at this ridiculous expenditure of time and money, this ruinous investigation into people's sex lives, this attack on personal liberty, and just fail to understand how it got so out of control. I don't particularly support Clinton (for the record, I'm a Green Party member), but, as one Disco Diva famously sang: "Enough is enough is enough!" Robert Brooks Doctoral Student The American University From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Mon Aug 17 19:42:42 1998 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:42:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: TR's views on the current most important story on earth . . . In-Reply-To: <85256664.0000FA56.00@notes-gw.american.edu> The whole affair is like a Kafka story. Andy From tr@tryoung.com Tue Aug 18 04:31:20 1998 (usr-mtp-48.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.48]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:27:47 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: TR's views on the current most important story on earth . . . In-Reply-To: <85256664.0000FA56.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Robert Brooks and Others: If I had my choice in the matter, the Presidency of the United States would not be repository/icon/symbol of the basic decency and social honor of our country... ....If I had my choice, The Berrigan Brothers, Hoagy Carmichael, Mary Daly, Bill Moyers or Louis Armstrong would be the repository of my own personal sense of moral sensibility. I once wrote a 26 page postmodern anti-war prose poem to make the point... If I had my way, I would substitute my views for those of RB's views on the subject...all except his view that Clinton's sexual exploitation of Ms. Lewinsky is a private matter...not when he uses the Office of the Presidency to extort sexual service. But the fact is that Clinton is President; he used the office of the President to extort sex; he lied about it and he now hides behind the Office of the President to protect himself from the private scorn and public onus of such behavior. In so doing, he brings shame and guilt on all of us for electing and defending such a creature. All this is not aside from the role of the US in the globalization process and the abominable role the USA plays in transferring the wealth of the world to the richest countries in the world. All this is not aside from the fact that, in our own domestic affairs we have an elected Congress and Government which engineers the greatest inequality in wealth; suffers great gender inequalities and remains deeply racist. All this brings that shame, disgrace and personal dismay home. I do agree with RB about how things should be but from the point of view of most people in other places and in the view of too many Americans, the Presidency is Repository of the Social Honor of the United States....Clinton's personal delicts disgrace us each and all. TR At 08:55 PM 8/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >TR and others: >I know that everyone has an opinion on this whole sordid mess (actually, a >number of messes). Let me address one thing in particular that you said. I >for one do not believe that the President "embodies the status honor of the >United States," for many reasons. First, assuming that I was concerned >about the status honor of this country (reification problems aside) I would >not be foolish enough to entrust it to one person. Second, I am well past >the rose-colored glasses stage of high school history, where each president >is presented in all his full glory, with nary a mention of his many faults >(be it slave owning; starting a completely unjustified war with Spain; >ordering break-ins of the opposing party's headquarters, etc.; shipping >arms (and perhaps cocaine) in places where the American people and Congress >did not want arms to go; or failing to realize, to quote another writer, >that "mink coats don't 'trickle down'"). TR's conception reminds me of >Harriet Martineau in "Society in America" complaining that the people >didn't think for themselves politically because they worshipped George >Washington. I say, thank god that era is finally behind us. Even after our >presidents disappoint us, some still insist upon expecting some sort of >moral/intellectual/political/military purity. This country is not respected >(or worse) in a great deal of the rest of the world. This is not due to the >fact that Clinton has "wandered." Rather, it is due to our expansionist, >arrogant, "policeman of the world" attitudes and behaviors, among others. >Clinton's approval rating is in the 60's, and most residents of most >foreign countries polled (with exceptions such as the Turkish and the east >Indians) support him as well on this matter. In sum, Clinton is not my >"surrogat father" to whom I look for moral guidance. I find my role models >in my daily life. > >One way to look at the current President's problems is in psychological >terms. Commentators continue to speak of "character flaws" and "lapses in >morality." These are not terribly useful. Clinton appears to me to suffer >from some sort of compulsive disorder; look at his weight swings, his need >for constant contact with the public, his dangerous sexual liasons. This is >a personal psychological problem -- it has little to do with how he does >his job. (In fact, it probably helps rather than hinders, on balance). I >can accept that the President can't seem to keep his pants zipped. I truly >don't care. >As to the issue of misuse of power, I share your concern. However, only two >people know exactly what that relationship was about, and how it came about >(of course, they may have two different versions, and each one would be >"right"). Ms. Lewinsky appears to be a bright, experienced woman. To assume >that she had no part to play, that she caved in to the President's demands, >is an assumption I will not make without more information. > >What I am much more concerned about is the state of this nation's legal >system as well as its quality of journalism. Kenneth Starr has spent utold >millions of dollars and thousands of hours on a flimsy case which, from the >beginning, was obviously not going to implicate the President in any >serious wrongdoing. I will not go on as to that point, except to say that >the case bears a remarkable resemblance to the main plot of Victor Hugo's >"Les Miserables." (The song "Stars" from the musical version (e.g., "he >knows his way in the dark, but mine is the way of the Lord") could come >right out of Ken's mouth. Clinton's act may be more malevolent that >stealing bread to feed oneself; however, the response in the two cases >appears to be proportionately similar. What is embarassing to this country >is not that the President had sex with an intern (after all, that only >reflects on the parties themselves); what is embarassing is the lengths to >which this case has gone -- the waste of ink and air time (and now my >time); the disrpution of the lives of many "innocent bystanders" >(secretaries, etc.) who must pay thousands in attorneys fees; equally the >absence of coverage of other stories much more critical (anyone read the >report on global warming which basically snuffs out the last credible >scientific argument against it?). If anyone is abusing his power, it is Mr. >Starr, who has forced a mother to testify against her daughter, subpoenaed >book purchase records, and caused dozens of people (many of whom are on the >low end of the stratification system, TR) to spend time and money they did >not have in order to hire counsel, etc. In addition, he likely has leaked >testimony to the press, a clear violation of the law. (Not to mention his >conflicts of interest). > >I believe that, five or ten years from now, we are going to look back at >this ridiculous expenditure of time and money, this ruinous investigation >into people's sex lives, this attack on personal liberty, and just fail to >understand how it got so out of control. I don't particularly support >Clinton (for the record, I'm a Green Party member), but, as one Disco Diva >famously sang: "Enough is enough is enough!" > >Robert Brooks >Doctoral Student >The American University > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Tue Aug 18 04:41:44 1998 (usr-mtp-48.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.48]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:38:12 -0400 To: "FEETSTUFF" From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: At 02:22 PM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote: TR: >What is the symbolism of >the Fiddler on the roof? ******** I'm pretty sure I used the Fiddler on the Roof as grounding for a mini-lecture on Socgrad Network some time ago but have forgotten the points I made with it...so, from the top of my head today: 1. In Yiddish Forelore, there is a curious creature called a Golem...s/he is a most mischievous critter. In some respects, the Fiddler seems to play that role in the movie...s/he seems to mock the characters and events of that wonderful play. 2. In Greek theatre and in a lot of modern cinema, there is a Chorus which sings/talks as the action of a play goes forth giving the audience a deeper understanding of what is transpiring...background music serves that function as a sort of sub-liminal text. The Fiddler seems to be doing that...along with the voice-over of the central character of the play. 3. Most of all, it seems to me, the Fiddler on the Roof embodies the hope and promise of a better life; as the pogrom begins, once again in Russia, Jewish communal life is disrupted and, once again, whole families are forced to flee from the utter stupidity and vicious ignorance of racist/ethnic claims of superiority. The closing scene, as I recall, shows the Fiddler following and playing a lively, joyful piece. Why do you ask??? TR > > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Tue Aug 18 05:06:57 1998 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:06:08 -0500 From: Bob Woldman To: socgrad - international listserv for soc grads Subject: How to leave socgrad Too much email in your life? If you want to unsubscribe from Socgrad, send a message to: listproc@csf.colorado.edu and in the body of your message, type: unsub socgrad Remember to send the message to listproc, NOT to Socgrad itself. Any problems or questions can be directed to: bobwold@mail.utexas.edu or glenn@sobek.colorado.edu -- ======================================================================== Bob Woldman bobwold@mail.utexas.edu Graduate Student of Sociology The University of Texas at Austin ======================================================================== "The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates (Plato THE APOLOGY) From tr@tryoung.com Tue Aug 18 06:17:55 1998 (usr-mtp-48.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.48]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:14:21 -0400 To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: the Privacy of a President: False Claims I watched Mr. Clinton's brief Apologia last evening. It was, I think, marginally adequate. Most people want this episode closed and for that reason, most will accept a marginally adequate apology. Orin Hatch, Senator from Utah, had a chance to close it off but failed to do so...some Republicans, hoping for political tidbits from this rotting fish, stinking in the moonlight, will push on. Some moral entrepreneurs, basking in the moonlight of Clinton's Apology will push on. Media editors, hoping to garner marginally larger market share will push it. So it will continue to stink in the American domain. Those of us who interpret and those who teach political sociology have the distasteful task to make sense of this for students and the public. Some points you may want to consider in so doing: a. Clinton's morality score is, on any scale of moral development, D- ; He took responsibility only after it was clear that he could no longer get away with lying. For those of you who follow the moral logic of Kohlberg, Clinton rates a lower 4th. For those of you who follow the better moral logic of Carol Gilligan, Clinton, in his apology, showed little compassion for the women he used and discarded. He did apologize, after a fashion to the American People. That was self-serving. He did not apologize to Monica Lewinsky and the other women he pressured; that would have earned him higher morality marks with Gilligan. b. Clinton's claim for privacy is a valid claim. Presidents do have a right to privacy; as fathers and mothers, they have that right. As husbands and wives, they have that right. But as President of the United States using the social Power vested in him by the People of the United States of America, he does not have the right to extort/purchase sexual favors from the people who work for him and then claim that his right to privacy as a husband extends his right to privacy as President. It is a profoundly stupid claim to make. I assume he had better advice and ignored it. Most people want closure; few people want their intelligence insulted. c. Clinton's Call for the End of the 'Investigation' will find a lot of public support. The legal fact is that the Grand Jury has no Constitutional Right to do the work of the US Congress. Only the Congress can indict a serving President and only the Senate can hear the case. Someone made that point before the Apology...it is a good point. For my part, I would prefer a Grand Jury investigate just cause for impeachment...'twould be better than the political conflict of a Judiciary Sub-Committee Investigation...Democrats protect and Republicans attack for partisan rather than for reasons of justice and equity. But that is not Constitutional Law. d. Where is Hilary in all this. As 'First Lady' she has to balance her claims as wife with that political role...and she seems to be doing a good job of it...I expect that, after his term of Office is over, Hilary will call Bill to account in a far different venue that any of us might visit. Most Americans appear to have considerable sympathy for her. As do I. But the fact is that Bill Clinton has a long record of sexual predation and the fact is that Hilary has put up with it. A genuine feminist would not. That suggests that politics trumps morality in Hilary's judgment as well as in Bill's. I know all this is harsh, unforgiving and lacks the compassion that of a course one must extent to others. But when a President makes false claims to privacy; claims which mask and thus legitimate sexual predation, all claims to compassion are off. As much as I would like it, this tawdry affair is not over... TRYoung TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From conversa@iac.net Tue Aug 18 07:49:08 1998 From: conversa@iac.net Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:47:53 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims I agree with most of your comments. I was outraged not by Clinton's so-called apology but by the reaction to it. Most people, newscasters, pundits and politicians were not outraged. In fact, most said they were satisfied and let's move on. I think the reason for this is that Clinton is the grand pooba of the party America is enjoying. Since eliminating him would spoil the party, people would rather put up with his lying, renting out the White House, obstructing justice, etc. Another reason they support him is that their are not emotional victims. Hillary, Monica, Jennifer, are all seen smiling in public. Poor Bill is the only one with a frown and for that people feel sorry for him and will forgive him. America deserves the smuck. Gerry Thiemann conversa@iac.net At 08:14 AM 8/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >I watched Mr. Clinton's brief Apologia last evening. > >It was, I think, marginally adequate. > >Most people want this episode closed and for that >reason, most will accept a marginally adequate apology. > >Orin Hatch, Senator from Utah, had a chance to close >it off but failed to do so...some Republicans, hoping >for political tidbits from this rotting fish, stinking >in the moonlight, will push on. Some moral entrepreneurs, >basking in the moonlight of Clinton's Apology will push >on. Media editors, hoping to garner marginally larger >market share will push it. So it will continue to stink >in the American domain. > >Those of us who interpret and those who teach political sociology >have the distasteful task to make sense of this for students and >the public. > >Some points you may want to consider in so doing: > > a. Clinton's morality score is, on any scale of > moral development, D- ; > He took responsibility only after it was clear > that he could no longer get away with lying. For > those of you who follow the moral logic of > Kohlberg, Clinton rates a lower 4th. For those > of you who follow the better moral logic of Carol > Gilligan, Clinton, in his apology, showed little > compassion for the women he used and discarded. He > did apologize, after a fashion to the American People. > That was self-serving. He did not apologize to Monica > Lewinsky and the other women he pressured; that would > have earned him higher morality marks with Gilligan. > > b. Clinton's claim for privacy is a valid claim. > > Presidents do have a right to privacy; as fathers and > mothers, they have that right. As husbands and wives, > they have that right. > > But as President of the United States using the social > Power vested in him by the People of the United States > of America, he does not have the right to extort/purchase > sexual favors from the people who work for him and then > claim that his right to privacy as a husband extends > his right to privacy as President. > > It is a profoundly stupid claim to make. I assume he had > better advice and ignored it. Most people want closure; > few people want their intelligence insulted. > > c. Clinton's Call for the End of the 'Investigation' will find > a lot of public support. > > The legal fact is that the Grand Jury has no Constitutional > Right to do the work of the US Congress. Only the Congress > can indict a serving President and only the Senate can hear > the case. Someone made that point before the Apology...it > is a good point. > > For my part, I would prefer a Grand Jury investigate just > cause for impeachment...'twould be better than the political > conflict of a Judiciary Sub-Committee Investigation...Democrats > protect and Republicans attack for partisan rather than for > reasons of justice and equity. But that is not Constitutional > Law. > > d. Where is Hilary in all this. As 'First Lady' she has to balance > her claims as wife with that political role...and she seems to > be doing a good job of it...I expect that, after his term of > Office is over, Hilary will call Bill to account in a far > different venue that any of us might visit. > > Most Americans appear to have considerable sympathy for her. > As do I. But the fact is that Bill Clinton has a long record > of sexual predation and the fact is that Hilary has put up with > it. A genuine feminist would not. That suggests that politics > trumps morality in Hilary's judgment as well as in Bill's. > >I know all this is harsh, unforgiving and lacks the compassion that >of a course one must extent to others. But when a President makes false >claims to privacy; claims which mask and thus legitimate sexual predation, >all claims to compassion are off. As much as I would like it, this >tawdry affair is not over... > TRYoung >TR Young, 8085 Essex >Weidman, Mi., 48893 >Email: tr@tryoung.com > > From danryan@mills.edu Tue Aug 18 09:55:45 1998 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:53:00 -0700 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: danryan@mills.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: climate, a practical matter Comrades, And now for something completely devoid of intellectual content.... I was just in San Fran yesterday for dinner and was reminded once again that it is NOT a hot place. Even in August it can be a windy and cool place. By 7 p.m. it was too cool to sit outside in the shade even with a light jacket. So, pack a sweater or two, light windbreaker, what have you. A few folks (tourists, I suspect. probably northern europeans) were wearing shorts in the afternoon, but others had on genuine COATS! It may be 90+ August where you are (as it has been here across the bay from time to time), but in Central SF, it seems to become April or so, late in the day. See you there. djr From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Tue Aug 18 10:15:06 1998 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: climate, a practical matter In-Reply-To: <35D9A35C.D4725C8E@mills.edu> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dan Ryan wrote: > Comrades, > > And now for something completely devoid of intellectual content.... > > I was just in San Fran yesterday for dinner and was reminded once again > that it is NOT a hot place. Even in August it can be a windy and cool > place. By 7 p.m. it was too cool to sit outside in the shade even with > a light jacket. So, pack a sweater or two, light windbreaker, what have > you. A few folks (tourists, I suspect. probably northern europeans) > were wearing shorts in the afternoon, but others had on genuine COATS! > It may be 90+ August where you are (as it has been here across the bay > from time to time), but in Central SF, it seems to become April or so, > late in the day. > > See you there. > > djr > What's that old quote from Twain, "the coldest winter I ever spent was August in San Franciso?" You can check the weather channel's web page for a 5-day forecast (www.weather.com/weather/us/cities/CA_San_Francisco.html). But do bring that jacket--SF weather can change quite quickly. Ah, now if I could just figure out how to afford living there... James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Tue Aug 18 18:05:15 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:10:15 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims Well, if he was my president I guess I'd be ashamed and embarrassed too. The truth is, the same sort of predation occurs here (and no doubt everywhere) but the stories are kept out of the media - which is another story again. The thing is, it is often the case that those who have much to offer, also have an aspect to them that is less than desirable. Robert Burns comes to mind, and there is much I would forgive him for, for the sake of his particular genius. I can't for the life of me, however, think of anything Clinton has to offer that would prompt me to overlook his moral shortcomings. Have I missed something? Cheers, Maxine PS Lickspittle, TR? Lickspittle? A new addition to my vocab! At 08:14 AM 18/08/98 -0400, you wrote: >I watched Mr. Clinton's brief Apologia last evening. > >It was, I think, marginally adequate. > >Most people want this episode closed and for that >reason, most will accept a marginally adequate apology. > >Orin Hatch, Senator from Utah, had a chance to close >it off but failed to do so...some Republicans, hoping >for political tidbits from this rotting fish, stinking >in the moonlight, will push on. Some moral entrepreneurs, >basking in the moonlight of Clinton's Apology will push >on. Media editors, hoping to garner marginally larger >market share will push it. So it will continue to stink >in the American domain. > >Those of us who interpret and those who teach political sociology >have the distasteful task to make sense of this for students and >the public. > >Some points you may want to consider in so doing: > > a. Clinton's morality score is, on any scale of > moral development, D- ; > He took responsibility only after it was clear > that he could no longer get away with lying. For > those of you who follow the moral logic of > Kohlberg, Clinton rates a lower 4th. For those > of you who follow the better moral logic of Carol > Gilligan, Clinton, in his apology, showed little > compassion for the women he used and discarded. He > did apologize, after a fashion to the American People. > That was self-serving. He did not apologize to Monica > Lewinsky and the other women he pressured; that would > have earned him higher morality marks with Gilligan. > > b. Clinton's claim for privacy is a valid claim. > > Presidents do have a right to privacy; as fathers and > mothers, they have that right. As husbands and wives, > they have that right. > > But as President of the United States using the social > Power vested in him by the People of the United States > of America, he does not have the right to extort/purchase > sexual favors from the people who work for him and then > claim that his right to privacy as a husband extends > his right to privacy as President. > > It is a profoundly stupid claim to make. I assume he had > better advice and ignored it. Most people want closure; > few people want their intelligence insulted. > > c. Clinton's Call for the End of the 'Investigation' will find > a lot of public support. > > The legal fact is that the Grand Jury has no Constitutional > Right to do the work of the US Congress. Only the Congress > can indict a serving President and only the Senate can hear > the case. Someone made that point before the Apology...it > is a good point. > > For my part, I would prefer a Grand Jury investigate just > cause for impeachment...'twould be better than the political > conflict of a Judiciary Sub-Committee Investigation...Democrats > protect and Republicans attack for partisan rather than for > reasons of justice and equity. But that is not Constitutional > Law. > > d. Where is Hilary in all this. As 'First Lady' she has to balance > her claims as wife with that political role...and she seems to > be doing a good job of it...I expect that, after his term of > Office is over, Hilary will call Bill to account in a far > different venue that any of us might visit. > > Most Americans appear to have considerable sympathy for her. > As do I. But the fact is that Bill Clinton has a long record > of sexual predation and the fact is that Hilary has put up with > it. A genuine feminist would not. That suggests that politics > trumps morality in Hilary's judgment as well as in Bill's. > >I know all this is harsh, unforgiving and lacks the compassion that >of a course one must extent to others. But when a President makes false >claims to privacy; claims which mask and thus legitimate sexual predation, >all claims to compassion are off. As much as I would like it, this >tawdry affair is not over... > TRYoung >TR Young, 8085 Essex >Weidman, Mi., 48893 >Email: tr@tryoung.com > > From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Tue Aug 18 18:32:20 1998 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:32:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980819115838.27879380@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> I was horrified to see a human being compelled to appear before the world and admit to the wretched sin of having consensual sexual relations with another human being who was not his wife. Why don't we also make him wear a big scarlet A on his lapel. Andy From tr@tryoung.com Wed Aug 19 05:08:04 1998 (usr-mtp-63.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.64]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:04:32 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: Consensual, Andy??? Not a misprison of social power and social honor?? If Clinton were a stockboy at Buick and if Monica were President of General Motors, would it be consensual? If Clinton were 23 and a law clerk while Monica were a Supreme Court Judge for whom Clinton worked, would it be consensual? Or would be it sexual predation on the part of Monica and a use of sexuality to gain favor on the part of Bill?? If Clinton were a stockboy at Walmart and Monica were check-out clerk, it might be consensual... presuming Bill were not married and Monica not ambitious. Consensual sex can be a wonderous and exhilerating experience...but it has to be freely invited and freely given for it to be consensual. Inequality destroys consensuality. Agreement between those at the bottom and those at the top of a stratification system may have the appearance of consensuality and may well bring pleasure to both; but the very fact of great inequality compromises the volitional requirements of consensus. Have you ever seen grown men and women turn into silly sucking sycophants the moment a professor walks into class?? Consensual??? I doubt it, TR PS: Mmmmmhhh...A Scarlet Letter??? for starring in Disportations...might be a winner! Clinton would have 5 stars on his! At 08:32 PM 8/18/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I was horrified to see a human being compelled to appear before the world >and admit to the wretched sin of having consensual sexual relations with >another human being who was not his wife. > >Why don't we also make him wear a big scarlet A on his lapel. > >Andy > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Aug 19 05:28:03 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:27:59 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Andrew Wayne Austin wrote: > > I was horrified to see a human being compelled to appear before the world > and admit to the wretched sin of having consensual sexual relations with > another human being who was not his wife. > > Why don't we also make him wear a big scarlet A on his lapel. > > Andy > No, no, no. Remember your history, Andy, heretics are burned at the stake. My first thought was, "we need a war or a good depression so that people can see what a REAL problem looks like." Then I saw the poll numbers and realized that this is mostly a "crisis" among elites, many of whom have much to gain by keeping this particular pot boiling. Actually, it seems that much of the US public sees the President as "Big Daddy" to us all. This, by me, is progress. James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Aug 19 05:30:39 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:30:36 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980819070432.007ef4e0@tryoung.com> On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, T R Young wrote: > Consensual, Andy??? > > Not a misprison of social power and social honor?? > > If Clinton were a stockboy at Buick and if > Monica were President of General Motors, would it > be consensual? > > If Clinton were 23 and a law clerk while Monica were a > Supreme Court Judge for whom Clinton worked, would > it be consensual? > > Or would be it sexual predation on the part of Monica > and a use of sexuality to gain favor on the part of Bill?? > > If Clinton were a stockboy at Walmart and Monica > were check-out clerk, it might be consensual... > presuming Bill were not married and Monica not ambitious. > > Consensual sex can be a wonderous and exhilerating > experience...but it has to be freely invited and freely > given for it to be consensual. Inequality destroys > consensuality. > > Agreement between those at the bottom and those at the > top of a stratification system may have the appearance > of consensuality and may well bring pleasure to both; > but the very fact of great inequality compromises the > volitional requirements of consensus. > > Have you ever seen grown men and women turn into > silly sucking sycophants the moment a professor walks > into class?? Consensual??? > > I doubt it, TR > > PS: Mmmmmhhh...A Scarlet Letter??? > for starring in Disportations...might > be a winner! Clinton would have 5 > stars on his! > > So in other words, those with little social power have no agency. My, what an interesting position for a self-procliamed "post-modern sociologist" to take. James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Aug 19 05:33:27 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:33:23 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, James Cassell wrote: > > Actually, it seems that much of the US public sees the President as "Big > Daddy" to us all. This, by me, is progress. > > James > Whoops; that should read "it seems that much of the US public *no longer* sees the President as 'Big Daddy' to us all." James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tr@tryoung.com Wed Aug 19 05:56:50 1998 (usr-mtp-51.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.51]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:53:16 -0400 To: sssitalk@sun.soci.niu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Five Easy Pieces I'm in process of reproducing some old field assignments in Symbolic Interaction for the Red Feather TeachingSociology HomePage...and have just finished converting this one to html...thought it might be useful to those who teach Symbolic Interaction this Fall... The title of the assignment is: ETHNOMETHODOLOGical SEARCHES FOR CULTURE PRICE = 10 Pts each. Choose any ONE of the assignments below, write it up and return it by 22 Sept. Ethnomethodology uses simple field research tactics in order to reveal COMPONENTs of a culture. These tactics are used since people tend to take their own culture as NATURAL thus not 'see' it as a social construction. Organize your report into SIX paragraphs reporting: a) what you did each OF FIVE times, and how people responded each of FIVE times, b) how it connects to a blue letter concept or a theory in the text or lecture. Try to keep it to 1 page, typed, single spaced. Spelling, Grammar, creativity counts. Make it easy for your mentor to read and understand so s/he can give you all the credit your deserve. A. SPACE BUBBLEz. Your text notes that the amount of space required by people for personal comfort varies across societies and thus is culturally determined. Sociobiology says that territoriality is innate. Check it out. Does space requirements change as sociology changes. Be creative! Look at the territorial requirements of people in different situations. Does territoriality vary with social status? ...age? ...gender? power relations? Study five individuals. What do they do to define their space bubble? Do they use body, voice, architecture or lines to delineate their space? What can you say about the two different theories of spacing? B. BODY TALK. Body talk is supposed to confirm and validate voiced talk. Sometimes voice says one thing and body says another. In this exercise, do three things: 1) over dramatize what you are saying with hands or face but keep your voice flat. 2) make your body say exactly the opposite of what your voice is saying. 3). Use some part of your body to say something which is not ordinarily used to define a situation or to communicate an idea (elbows, feet, nose, behind, hips or such). Report your findings and tie it in with the lecture on the construction of social reality with symbol sets. C. SYMBOLS: JOYful and SHAMEful. Your text says that most words have a positive or negative emotional content which preshapes your response to what another is saying since symbols are supposed to arouse the same feelings, thoughts and action in the hearer that they do in the user of the words. [see the insert on Pro-life and Pro-choice] For example, when someone uses a word with negative [or positive] emotional content, react as if you assumed that it carried the opposite emotional charge. Be creative and do something to check out the social power lurking within everyday words. Do this five times. D. ETHNOCENTRISM Most Americans have been taught that our culture sits at the peak of social evolution. People take the American way of life as given. In light conversation with two or more others around the campus or with your folks, casually mention that our culture ranks 42nd in terms of quality of life variables; that we have the most crime and the least social justice of the developed nations; that our infant mortality rate is higher than that of, say, Cuba; that capitalism helps the rich more than workers or some other 'factoid' that has some truth value. Report your findings, including your own feelings. Do this in five (5) different encounters. E. FEMINIST SOCIOLOGY Most Americans, men and women, assume gender roles and patriarchy as a given. Men and women who do gender relations differently are subject to a wide variety of sanctions. Your assignment, should you care to take it, is to do gender a bit differently for a while. Do be subtle and fairly unobtrusive...if you are 'male' ask or allow a woman to open the door for you. If you are doing 'female,' hold a door open for a male and watch his reaction. If you are male, make it clear that you expect her to pay; if you are female make it clear that you will pay for his meal this time. Wear something that is usually used to connote another gender. Mention to a group of two or more others that other societies have 3, 4, 5 or more genders and note their reply. Only females are supposed to decorate their bodies in our culture. Put bright red fingernail polish on one hand. Do some such exercise least five (5) times and report your findings. Tie them into the social construction of reality hypothesis. F. TALK LINES. Goffman says that a talk-line is used to establish 'co-presence' and thus create a social reality. The talk-line is usually about 16 to 24 inches long in our society. You can play around with this to see how far you can stretch the talk line. Or you get a co-conspirator to talk with you in a fairly narrow hall and watch what people do to avoid breaking your talk line. Or your can interfere with another's talk line and note their movements to repair it. Do this five times. G. FACE RIGHTS. The human face plays an important part in the construction of social realities. It can be used to generate over 100,000 bits of information. You can check out the importance of face, facing, and face rights in the construction of social reality with any number of little ethnomethodological ploys. You might keep your face absolutely blank in a conversation. You might turn your face 5, 10, 15 and then 20o away from whomever you are speaking. You might paint a third eye on your forehead and look at your conversation partner with that eye instead of your own. Try five such little face erasures and report your findings. `have fun, learn a lot, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Aug 19 10:59:49 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:59:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980819070432.007ef4e0@tryoung.com> TR, The examples you have given may or may not be consensual relations. It depends to what degree the subordinate believes they have a choice in submitting to the desire of the superordinate. The problems I have with the argument you are advancing are many, inter alias it lacks a sense of proportion, excessively abstracts human relations, and exaggerates the loss of human agency in power relations. I want to expand on these and other points. At the core of my disagreement with your position is that I believe it privileges an idealized - an uncritically generalized - conception of relations in formal bureaucratic organizations over informal, personal, and consensual human relations. The argument therefore legitimizes an imposed impersonal hypermorality, if you will, wherein legal, rational, and formal rules determine the moral content of our informal human relations and the capacity for making personal moral choices. Should not informal human relations of a consensual, private character, be to some degree free from overbearing bureaucratic and legal structuring? Is there nowhere where two people can go and consensually do something that relatively harmlessly violates Jewish-Christian morality without having the legal machinery of state, the tabloid eye, and an exaggerated sense of the effects of institutional power on individual decisions come down on their necks? More simply, is there nothing that is personal and private anymore? As a communist and a humanist, I abhor the overbearing rational structuring of the human condition. Bureaucracy and the legal relations that are part of this structure, are targets of my struggle. People, men and women, must regain from the constant surveillance and bureaucratic restriction of the capitalist state, their privacy and their personal freedom to engage in consensual behavior. When the state can hire a grand inquisitor to force dozens of people to appear before him for several years, break and humiliate these people he persecutes, forcing them to tell all about their friends and their secrets, potentially destroying marriages and relationships and reputations, even compel them to appear before the world and humiliate themselves, then I am going to oppose this. This is tyranny. It is one thing when somebody uses their power to coerce somebody to do something against their will. It is quite another thing when people are brought together by circumstances and decide to pleasure one another. Monica did not want this relationship to come out. Monica has not charged Clinton with harassment or rape or any other sexual violation. From all indications, Monica wanted this relationship. I was watching a group yesterday on PBS, Republicans, Democrats, and Independents, and there were these hypermoral Clinton haters going on and on about "What if Clinton were the CEO of GM," "What if Clinton were the president of Stanford University," and on and on. Finally a man spoke up and said what I have been saying to the television and to my friends now for 7 months: "Has Monica accused Clinton of crime?" No, Monica tried to hide this from the grand inquisitor. Starr forced her to admit to something she wanted to keep silent. He wired up a right wing political operative who used her trust with Monica to tape private conversations. He forced Monica *and her mother* to appear before the court and enter into the public record a dress with a man's semen stain on it. Where is our sense of proportion? *Starr* is Monica's violator. Maybe you don't mean to, TR, but I believe your position carries in it an assumption that women are mere objects who fall down before power. It creates an image of women - grown, savvy women - as quivering masses of sexual weakness, stupidity, easily seduced by the "aphrodisiac of power." It robs women of their agency. Moreover, by confusing consensual sexual relations with sexual harassment we confuse the legal standing of women and men who have real complaints against powerful others who used their positions of power to forces themselves sexually upon them. It is way past time for somebody to stand up, like that young attorney did during the McCarthy hearings, against at the media, the Republican Party, and Judge Starr, and say, "Have you no decency, Sirs?" Peace, Andy From conversa@iac.net Wed Aug 19 11:25:37 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:17:32 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Rafael Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: That is a good idea, Andy! At 08:32 PM 8/18/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I was horrified to see a human being compelled to appear before the world >and admit to the wretched sin of having consensual sexual relations with >another human being who was not his wife. > >Why don't we also make him wear a big scarlet A on his lapel. > >Andy > From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Aug 19 12:13:16 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:15:54 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: And it only cost us a few million tax dollars to find out the schocking revelation that the President is a womanizer. Wait, didn't we already know this? Maybe we can set aside a few billion dollars and appoint Kenneth Starr to a new cabinet position to investigate each and every congressperson's sexual affairs. Who knows, there might be even more adulterers lurking around in the nation's capitol! --Wayne At 08:32 PM 8/18/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I was horrified to see a human being compelled to appear before the world >and admit to the wretched sin of having consensual sexual relations with >another human being who was not his wife. > >Why don't we also make him wear a big scarlet A on his lapel. > >Andy > > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Aug 19 14:28:38 1998 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:28:25 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Position in Latin American Studies (fwd) FYI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:44:03 -0400 From: Dwayne Smith To: sssnet@irss.unc.edu Subject: Position in Latin American Studies This message is from Dwayne Smith, Chair, Department of Sociology at UNC Charlotte. FACULTY POSITION -- UNC CHARLOTTE Applications are invited for a tenure-track Assistant Professor position to begin August 1, 1999 in an interdisciplinary Latin American Studies program. The successful candidate will have research and teaching interests in the area of 20th century economic development, demonstrated research competence, and a strong interest in helping to develop an undergraduate curriculum in Latin American Studies. Candidates are being sought from the disciplines of Geography, History, Political Science, and Sociology. The selected candidate will have a full-time appointment in the department of his/her discipline. Send a vita, a cover letter describing teaching and research interests, and three letters of recommendation to Lyman L. Johnson, Latin American Search Committee, Department of History, University of North Carolina at Charlotte, 9201 University City Blvd, Charlotte, NC 28223-0001. UNC Charlotte is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. Review of applications will begin September 1, 1998 and continue until the position is filled. Please inform the committee if you plan to attend the LASA annual meeting. From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Wed Aug 19 16:13:31 1998 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:18:35 +1200 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims Hi Andy Can't help thinking the consensual aspect is a red herring in the Clinton shambles. Also, I'm not interested in his sex life, except in as much as it demonstrates his duplicity. If you're going to espouse "family values" and expect to be taken seriously, you'd better live by them. If you don't and you get caught, don't lie. Both "aberations" run counter to what you claim to uphold. I'm in no position to judge whether his actions were predatory or not, though I do have an opinion - and a lot of contact with young women. On the other hand, I am convinced of his duplicity. I don't like it, but I could forgive it for a greater good - if I could see one. I can't. And as much as I find Starr and his pursuit distasteful, they didn't wreck Clinton's marriage (if it is wrecked) or any other relationships, Clinton did. Why blame others for the consequences of his actions? In Clinton's defence, I have to acknowledge a structural component to the fiasco. I haven't followed this particularly closely, but didn't it all start with him being sued by another woman, and wouldn't an admission of his dalliance with Lewinsky have increased the likelihood of him having to part with a large sum of money? What would you do? And doesn't that come back to capitalism - and the particular legal system that has developed in the US. Suing seems to be a national past-time. And if your case is a bit airy you can always sell the story to the media. Cheers, Maxine > From dag@st-andrews.ac.uk Thu Aug 20 07:15:29 1998 Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:14:54 +0100 (BST) Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:15:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:15:14 +0100 (BST) From: Dave Gordon To: small-triple-a@mailbase.ac.uk socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, DCybersoc@listserv.readadp.com Subject: Contemporary Ideas on Tradition, Today and the Future. Sorry for the cross post... I am researching a book and wish to receive some input from the esteemed members of these lists. If you would be so kind to answer the following questions I will be in your debt, and you will be in my book! 1) Where would you say Social Anthropology lies within the wider field of Anthropology? That is once subdivided, what position would you place Soc Anth - A quick textual subdivision may be required to do this. 2) Define Social Anthropology. 3) If there are new areas of research looming or waiting to be adopted in your opinion, where are they, what are they, and why do you see them as relevant or important. 4) Who do you regard as the greatest deceased Theorist in Soc Anth? Why? 5) What Theory do you object to the most? Why? 6) Who do you regard as the greatest deceased ethnographer in Soc Anth? Why? 7) What ethnography do you object to the most? Why? 8) Who do you regard as the greatest *living* theorist in Soc Anth? Why? 9) Can you think of a modern theory that you dispute strongly? If so what is it? and why? 10) Who do you regard as the greatest *living* ethnographer in Soc Anth? Why? 11) Can you think of a modern ethnography that you dispute strongly? If so what is it? and why? 12) Who would you say were the most popular traditional peoples researched? (those you were taught about at University, perhaps) 13) Who do you think are the most popular contemporary peoples researched? (those that you study yourself, perhaps) 14) What would you say were the most popular traditional institutions researched? 15) What do you think are the most popular contemporary institutions researched? 16) What do you think was the traditional research methodology? Please describe. 17) What do you think is the contemporary research methodology? Describe if necessary. 18) Describe, if possible, the process in preparing for field-research also if possible can you indicate the areas of funding that you have used or approached? 19) Please list all the Social Science Journals that you are aware of. 20) Please list all institutes that Social Anthropologists may have an interest in joining. 21) Please list all the email discussion groups you know that are relevant to Social Anthropologists. 22) Please list all the WWW resources that you may think are of interest to Social Anthropologists. 23) Please list any sites you have come by that hold research papers. 24) List as many questions as you can that traditional Soc Anth took to answer. 25) List as many questions as you can that contemporary Soc Anth may take to answer. 26) What is the best thing about Soc Anth? 27) What is the worst thing about Soc Anth? 29) Does the best thing outwiegh the worst thing in Soc Anth - that is overall is Soc Anth a worthy subject in your mind. 30) If you studied Soc Anth or its related fields: Where did you do so? Would you recommend that institution today? 11) What is your views on Post-Modernism? Please do not email the answers to these question through the list. Email me directly. I will print the results on my site for anyone who is interested in the answers without clogging up everyone's mailbox. Thank you for your assistance and tolleration of this posting. I am trying to create an idea of any differences that have come about in Soc Anth from traditional times (Malinowski, Spencer et al) to the modern day (Goody, Okely et al) Dave St. Andrews University Department of Social Anthropology http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~dag/index.html "Nothing you can say can't be sung" Lennon and McCartney All You Need is Love From cemck@cs1.presby.edu Thu Aug 20 09:51:15 1998 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:51:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles McKelvey To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Conference in Cuba Conference Commemorating the 40th Anniversary of the Cuban Revolution (Last Call) The conclusion of the year 1998 will mark the 40th anniversary of the triumph of the Cuban Revolution. La Casa de Altos Estudios "Don Fernando Ortiz" of the University of Havana will convene a conference commemorating this important event. The conference is intended for academics, writers, artists and students. Cubans and foreigners are invited to participate in the discussions, round tables and cultural activities planned for the conference. The conference will be held at the University of Havana from November 18 through November 21, 1998. The themes for discussion will include the following: the historic dynamic of the Cuban Revolution; groups, sectors and social classes in the process of the Cuban Revolution; the women's revolution; revolution, economy and social development; community and revolution; revolution, democracy and human rights; ideology and revolution; education and health; cultural revolution; the conflict between Cuba and the United States; revolution and emigration; the Cuban Revolution in the popular imagination; and international relations and activities of the Cuban revolution. The program will include presentations by actors in the Cuban process during the course of the last 40 years. In addition, during the program, a sample of the most well-known expressions of Cuban culture will be presented, along with conferences and discussions concerning these expressions of art. La Casa de Altos Estudios "Don Fernando Ortiz" has asked the Center for Development Studies to organize a delegation from the United States to participate in the conference. U.S. participants wishing to make presentations can do so in English or Spanish. Translators will be available to translate presentations made in English and to provide interpretations for those not understanding or needing assistance with Spanish. The Center for Development Studies has arranged through el Centro de Organizacion y Promocion de Eventos at the University of Havana for a program that includes two days of activities in Havana prior to the beginning of the conference. These activities include visits to museums and historical sites as well as opportunities to visit a local neighborhood and meet with leaders of neighborhood organizations. Most of these activities are planned for Monday, November 16 and Tuesday, November 17. The conference itself is Wednesday through Saturday, November 18-21. Participants should plan to arrive in Havana on Sunday, November 15 and to depart on Sunday, November 22. Four packages are provided. The packages include hotel accommodation in double or single room for seven nights, breakfast and dinner or breakfast only, transportation between airport and hotel and to all conference events, conference registration, translator services, visa from Cuban government, license to travel to Cuba from U.S. government, and fees to the Center for Development Studies. The four packages are (1) double room, breakfast only, $540; (2) double room, breakfast and dinner, $615; (3) single room, breakfast only, $645; (4) single room, breakfast and dinner, $720. Participants must make their own arrangements for air travel to Havana. For flight information, contact Marazul Tours, 201-319-9670, fax 201-319-9009. U.S. citizens wishing to participate should send the following information by September 1: full name, position (full title, e.g., professor of sociology), institution, work address, home address, work telephone, home telephone, fax number, e-mail address, passport information (passport number, date of issue, country and place of issue, expiration date), place of birth and date of birth. Those wishing to give a presentation should provide a title and one-page abstract of their presentation. (Please submit the title and the abstract in the language in which you intend to present). Send the information by U.S. mail, e-mail, or fax to Charles McKelvey, Center for Development Studies, 210 Belmont Stakes, Clinton, South Carolina 29325; e-mail ; fax 864-833-8481. The Center for Development Studies will make consolidated applications for travel licenses from the U.S. government and visas from the Cuban government. The Center for Development Studies is a non-profit organization incorporated in the state of South Carolina on September 23, 1996. Its objectives include increasing understanding of Central America and the Caribbean by conducting travel seminars. In June 1997, the Center for Development Studies conducted its inaugural project, when a group of eight faculty and graduate students in the fields of sociology and political science from various colleges and universities in the United States participated in a three-week travel seminar and research project in Cuba, conducted jointly by the Center for Development Studies and la Facultad Latinoamericana de Ciences Sociales (FLACSO), Programa Cuba. In July 1998, the Center for Development Studies, again in cooperation with FLACSO Cuba, sponsored an experiential research seminar in Cuba. Entitled "The Cuban Revolution: Surviving into the 21st Century," eight university and college professors and graduate students in the social sciences, Romance languages and literature from various universities and colleges in the United States participated. The Center for Development Studies intends to conduct a similar seminar in Cuba in June, 1999. From conroyt@bu.edu Thu Aug 20 12:57:58 1998 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:57:54 -0400 (EDT) From: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: List, I happened to catch Geraldo Rivera's interview with Mario Cuomo on CNBC last night. After going one on one for a period of time, the interview turned into a panel discussion, featuring people like Clinton aide Mandy Grunwald, a yuppie Republican woman (can't recall her name) and other panelists. One of the points discussed was whether the President (and politicians generally) should be held to high moral standards, with this posed as a question and directed toward Cuomo. Mario then - and this is one of the reasons to love the guy and perhaps wish he would be president - said that yes, politicians should be moral, but this also means they should think twice about taking tobacco money, should stop the rhetoric of hate and divisiveness, stop blaming the poor for being poor, etc. To which, of course, the Repubyuppie scowled and rolled her eyes and quickly changed the subject. Anyway, I blame the Supreme Court and Janet Reno for this crisis; I think that they both screwed up royally, the Supreme Court for allowing the Paula Jones case to proceed during Clinton's term and Reno for not challenging Jesse Helms and Lauch Faircloth's insistance that a career prosecutor be replaced by the witchhunter of their choosing. Again, I'm not making excuses for Clinton's sleazy and deceptive behavior, but this whole mess could, and should, have been prevented. This scandal pales in comparison to both Watergate and Iran Contra. Tom From tr@tryoung.com Fri Aug 21 04:54:11 1998 (usr-mtp-25.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.25]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:50:38 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: Right! Well done, Tom, TR At 02:57 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote: >List, > > I happened to catch Geraldo Rivera's interview with Mario Cuomo on >CNBC last night. After going one on one for a period of time, the >interview turned into a panel discussion, featuring people like >Clinton aide Mandy Grunwald, a yuppie Republican woman (can't recall her >name) and other panelists. One of the points discussed was whether the >President (and politicians generally) should be held to high moral >standards, with this posed as a question and directed toward Cuomo. Mario >then - and this is one of the reasons to love the guy and perhaps wish he >would be president - said that yes, politicians should be moral, but this >also means they should think twice about taking tobacco money, should stop >the rhetoric of hate and divisiveness, stop blaming the poor for being >poor, etc. To which, of course, the Repubyuppie scowled and rolled her >eyes and quickly changed the subject. > > Anyway, I blame the Supreme Court and Janet Reno for this crisis; I >think that they both screwed up royally, the Supreme Court for allowing >the Paula Jones case to proceed during Clinton's term and Reno for not >challenging Jesse Helms and Lauch Faircloth's insistance that a career >prosecutor be replaced by the witchhunter of their choosing. Again, I'm >not making excuses for Clinton's sleazy and deceptive behavior, but this >whole mess could, and should, have been prevented. > > This scandal pales in comparison to both Watergate and Iran Contra. > >Tom > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Aug 21 07:48:51 1998 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 09:44:25 EDT From: danielle Subject: Re: TR's views on the current most important story on earth . . . To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <85256664.0000FA56.00@notes-gw.american.edu> I agree with Robert Brooks. My main concern about this whole debacle is not that Clinton had sex with an intern (which is none of my business), but the legal lengths to which Starr has gone and the hideous precedents that have been set in terms of the privacy of a president and his/her family. The fact that secret service police have been forced to testify scares me because now it will be necessary for a president to hire "outside", potentially mercenary, people to be his/her true defenders. And where will it stop in terms of forcing people to testify against each other? I am not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I paranoid, but we must be very clear and aware of the potentially dangerous legal precedents that have been set in this caxse. Danielle at UCONN From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Aug 21 08:12:05 1998 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 10:10:19 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Inquiry Re: Recent Sociological Theory Texts (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU, teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu Respond to Scott directly as he is not subscribed to either list (his PhD is in education, go figure ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:34:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Kerlin To: Alan Davidson Subject: Inquiry Re: Recent Sociological Theory Texts In-Reply-To: <980813.123652.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Hi: I will be teaching a senior-level course in sociological theory this fall and am sorting through a number of possible texts and online resources. So far, I've chosen one title, "Contested Knowledge: Social Theory in the Postmodern Era" by Steven Seidman of SUNY Albany, published in 1996 by Blackwell Publishers. I am also planning to provide many online resources on the core theorists, but would like to seek your advice and suggestions for single texts that would accomplish either (or both) of these goals: (1) Provide analysis and selected excerpts of the work of core sociology theorists (emphasis on Marx, Weber, Durkheim, possibly also Parsons) in one book so that I can have students read original writings of the masters as well as interpretations and critiques; (2) Include discussions and excerpts the works of 20th century critical theorists/feminist theorists who have been considered especially influential in the evolution of contemporary sociological theory. While the Seidman text does a wonderful job of covering these many perspectives, it does not include excerpts of the original works, and I will no doubt be using the library reserve facilities and the Web to supply these. Have any of you located exemplary (and published within the last 5 years) theory texts that combine excerpts of many sociological theorists (classical to modern/postmodern) with analytical discussions that are within grasp of a senior undergraduate student population? What have been your most successful methods of teaching the classical theorists/works to undergraduates while sustaining a critical/progressive/feminist perspective? Thank you for any suggestions you can offer, Scott Kerlin, Ph.D. Portland, OR E-Mail: skerlin@teleport.com WWW: http://www.teleport.com/~skerlin/soc_phil.html (sociology library) From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Aug 21 08:17:52 1998 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 98 10:17:06 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: RESEARCH: Data Available on Milwaukee Civil Disorder of 1967 (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:57:55 -0500 Reply-To: H-NET List on Ethnic History Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: "Josef J. Barton" Subject: RESEARCH: Data Available on Milwaukee Civil Disorder of 1967 To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU [Thanks to co-editor Richard Jensen for the following item:] The Data and Program Library Service is pleased to announce the addition of the following dataset to our Web-based Online Data Archive. ****************************************** Title: Milwaukee Study of Civil Disorder, 1967 URL: http://dpls.dacc.wisc.edu/Disorder67/index.html Unique Identification Number: SM-006-001-1-2-USA-DPLS-1967 Type of File: Numeric. Methodology: This report is based on data from 387 interviews conducted with Milwaukee County residents. For analysis purposes, the county was divided into three parts: (1) the "inner city," the area cordoned off by law enforcement officials (between 1st and 27th streets, Juneau Avenue, and Capitol Drive), an area which includes the black ghetto; (2) the "outer city," the rest of the city of Milwaukee; and (3) the "suburbs," the county outside the city limits. A probability sample of households was drawn from the Milwaukee City Directory and relevant suburban listings by the Sampling Section of the Wisconsin Survey Research Laboratory. A supplementary block sample was also drawn to check Directory errors that might arise from changing usage of structures since the compilation of the Directory. In order to assure an adequate number of black respondents, a higher sampling rate was utilized for the cordoned-off area and one out of 975 for the remainder of the county. See Research Methodology - Appendix A for additional methodology information. (PDF format--84 KB. Shift-click to download.) See Using Documentation in PDF for help with Portable Document Format. Summary: The data set contains information pertaining to the attitudes of Milwaukee residents during the civil disturbances of 1967 with regard to actions taken, opinion of news coverage, opinion of people who took part in the disturbance, opinions concerning the reasons for the disturbances, personal reactions, opinions concerning what should be done to correct the situation, personal opinion toward politicians, personal job information, and background information of those interviewed. Geographic Coverage: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Descriptors: riot, disturbance, civil disorder, inner city, conflict, violence, Milwaukee Technical Notes: One raw ASCII data file merged from the original card-image version. Logical record length equals 368, number of records (observations) equals 387. Documentation is in hard copy in library, and scanned as two PDF files. Use (free) Adobe Acrobat reader to read PDF files. DPLS Staff Data and Program Library Service 3308 Social Science Building Madison, WI 53706 (608) 262-0750 dpls@dpls.dacc.wisc.edu http://dpls.dacc.wisc.edu From matthew@louisville.edu Sun Aug 23 23:30:27 1998 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:31:03 -0700 From: "M. W. McGovern" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------849F16CE054F2FFD92516699 List, Sleaze is sleaze, and one "should" not lie to cover up ones infidelity. HOWEVER, I still am trying to figure out how we got from flipping cheap land for a buck, to hoping to prove the big Chief lied even more? Yes, Clinton should not have perjured himself, and yes he has not practiced safe morality, yet if one throws enough poo-poo-kaa-kaa against the wall some will stick. How was it that we have allowed this investigation to become some sort of plug-n-play process, allowing a man who (I feel) has personal ideological and political bents, to be wound up and watched go...seeking out his seemingly pre programed agenda. This is either a general personal statement, or a journey for some answer, either way you decide. MCGOVERN matthew@louisville.edu T R Young wrote: > Right! > > Well done, Tom, > > TR > > At 02:57 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote: > >List, > > > > I happened to catch Geraldo Rivera's interview with Mario Cuomo on > >CNBC last night. After going one on one for a period of time, the > >interview turned into a panel discussion, featuring people like > >Clinton aide Mandy Grunwald, a yuppie Republican woman (can't recall her > >name) and other panelists. One of the points discussed was whether the > >President (and politicians generally) should be held to high moral > >standards, with this posed as a question and directed toward Cuomo. Mario > >then - and this is one of the reasons to love the guy and perhaps wish he > >would be president - said that yes, politicians should be moral, but this > >also means they should think twice about taking tobacco money, should stop > >the rhetoric of hate and divisiveness, stop blaming the poor for being > >poor, etc. To which, of course, the Repubyuppie scowled and rolled her > >eyes and quickly changed the subject. > > > > Anyway, I blame the Supreme Court and Janet Reno for this crisis; I > >think that they both screwed up royally, the Supreme Court for allowing > >the Paula Jones case to proceed during Clinton's term and Reno for not > >challenging Jesse Helms and Lauch Faircloth's insistance that a career > >prosecutor be replaced by the witchhunter of their choosing. Again, I'm > >not making excuses for Clinton's sleazy and deceptive behavior, but this > >whole mess could, and should, have been prevented. > > > > This scandal pales in comparison to both Watergate and Iran Contra. > > > >Tom > > > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex > Weidman, Mi., 48893 > Email: tr@tryoung.com --------------849F16CE054F2FFD92516699 begin: vcard fn: M. W. McGovern n: McGovern;M. W. org: Institute for the Advancement of the Simian Nation adr: Louisville;;;;KY;;USA email;internet: matthew@louisville.edu tel;work: 1.502.346.2426 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------849F16CE054F2FFD92516699-- From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 24 06:06:55 1998 (usr-mtp-24.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.24]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:03:21 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Radical Pedagogy: A NEW Website for You ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, sssitalk@sun.soci.niu.edu Those of you who include radical sociology: class, racism and gender critique in your lectures might find some of the field assignments in our new website, RADPED. It is at: http://www.tryoung.com/RADPED/radped.htm Feel free to use any of the assignments as is or to adapt them to your own lectures/purposes. They are designed, first of all, to teach basic sociological concepts but to do that in a critical, emancipatory modality. AND...I solicit 'camera ready' copies of your own radped assignments suitable for undergrad courses in the social sciences... ....send me a post with the assignment just as you gave it to your own students and I will convert and upload it to RADPED...with credit to you... enjoy the new semester! TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Tue Aug 25 05:32:10 1998 (usr-mtp-54.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.54]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:28:29 -0400 To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Holy Terror IN her apology for the bombing of targets in the Sudan and in Pakistan, Ms. Allbright, Secretary of State in the Clinton Administration, said that 'decent people everywhere' would understand the efforts of the USA to combat terrorism. Perhaps. But not from the explanations given for the moral outrage against the USA which gives rise to acts of terrorism. For those who teach political and/or economic sociology as well as, of course, social problems, a full under- standing of terror and anti-terrorism is a bit more complex than simplistic explanations reduced to psycho- pathology and/or fundamentalist Islamic religiousity. Marxian theory is a good place to start; good but not complete. Here is a larger, macro-structural analysis which might be helpful to those who wish to teach beyond the nation and beyond the national interest of the USA. A. The USA and the Group of Seven A. Most countries adversely affected has a high tech military weapons by globalization have only low- with which to strike at opponents tech options...these are, today, to the globalization of the world defined as terrorist weapons. economy. B. Capitalism, as an economic system B. Capitalism, as a global economy has a great many positive effects tends to rip asunder ancient both in terms of quality of life forms of social life; forms and in terms of quantity of life then and now defined as Holy measures. and the embodiment of God's Will C. The USA, as a nation and a country C. The USA, as a nation-state, is is admirable in many, many ways; the chief architect of the great more than those of us on the Left social dislocations on-going in like to admit. the globalization process. D. The USA, as Leader of the Globali- D. Blaming the USA for the Global- zation process, has several high- zation process is like blaming tech options: the World Bank, the Greece for the Olympic Games; International Development Fund, it is a global process, not a USAID and the USDollar as the national or ethnic process. Currency of Record for investment France, Germany, England or and trade. Japan would be only too happy to replace the USA. E. Leaders of the Group of Seven, look at the Globalization process and E. Leaders of Ethnic groups, see only those features which benefit religions, 3rd world nations, their national economies. and small business see, first hand, the terrible ravages F. Globalization of the World Economy done to land, water, forest means commodification of All That is and to their children...they Holy...drugs, sex, food, and people do not see profits as para- themselves become market commodities mount to the human project. to be valued for profit rather than for sacred purpose. F.Young people, around the world, coming into the G. Peoples dispossessed of land move to fullness of their morality, urban areas; some find jobs paying see the terrible ravages more in a month than their fathers done to family, to friend, earned in a year. Others, find only to brother and to sister; theft, prostitution, and hard labor They become eager volunteer at low wages upon which to survive. to movements in opposition to the de-sanctification of H. Absent effective global controls on All that Has Been Holy. global capitalism, exploitation of 3rd world workers continues; despoil- G. Socialism, as an alternative ation of the land continues; pollution to capitalism failed in the of the waters continues; destruction of USSR...while democratic the forests continues; shipment of food socialism yeilds too much from the poorest nations to the richest to private profit and nations in the world continues; removal private greed; while class of people from their land continues. racist and ethnic inequal- There seems no effective solution to ties continue to increase. the vast social problems besetting peoples in 3/4ths of the world. Absent a democratic socialism and/or an effective Liberation Theology with which to control and to domesticate 'this rough beast lumbering toward Bethlehem, low-tech terrorist action seem, by default, the only moral thing to do. We are not yet at the end of history. A Capitalist Global Economy is not the end of human genius nor of human politics. Any number of promising alternatives are to be found in the midst of this great macro-economic process. Affirmative Postmodern Religious Sensibility is emerging. Democratic Socialism and non-bureaucratic communism is found in co-ops, in worker owned and managed enterprizes, and in worker owned and managed mutual funds. Interesting experiments in Kerala and in Cuba promise more than they now deliver. Who knows what turns and transformations China will take now that they have Hong Kong and its great financial power at their disposal. One should not give up on former communist countries in Eastern Europe...privatization of those markets teach lessons that England and Sweden learned in the 1930's. What we must not do is to buy into the simplistic chauvinist arguments of the Clinton Administration...to do so would make us as myopic as are those who think they can stop the globalization process by killing a few dozen Americans here, there and everywhere. TRYoung, Editor FROM THE LEFT TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From rb6553a@american.edu Tue Aug 25 19:39:47 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:39:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Sexual Impeachment I echo McGovern's sentiments. The question with regard to Presidential behavior (in a legal sense) is always: "Is the offense an impeachable one?" Kenneth Starr (and the previous independent prosecuter assigned to the Whitewater case) did not find any evidence at all for ANY crime re the Clintons. (Therefore, those who claim that Monica-gate is "more evidence" of his wrongdoing are wrong themselves. There is no Whitewater-related wrongdoing on the part of the President. This will soon be said by Mr. Starr, who has attorneys, investigators, seemingly unlimited funds, the power of nationwide subpoeana, and three years worth of work on this. If there was wrongdoing, chances are pretty good he would have found something). Is the President's admittedly disgusting behavior with a woman not his wife an impeachable offense? Is lying about it? If the answer to both questions is "no" (as I and the majority of Americans believe it to be), then Mr. Starr is wasting his time as well as our money. If the above were impeachable offenses, then at least four of the last seven Presidents apparently should have had their own little Kenneth Starr nipping at their ankles (or whatever). As to morality, this sad affair is the latest in a long series of moral panics, national obsessions absolutely out of whack with the importance of the facts. No man or woman is perfect. And those men and women with great power unfortunatley have the resources to magnify their imperfections on a grand scale. Those who have contributed here, who have painted this as an abuse of power are correct, and this case should be treated as such, not as a six-month long continual circus. The Cirque de Soleil is less bizzare. (I'm in Alexandria, VA and a reader of the Washington Post. The Post buries articles such as the impending collapse of the Russian ruble under page after page of stories about the Lewinsky story, about every major and minor player, about stories about the stories, about whether they should print the latest sick rumor (while describing it in detail), ad nauseum). Unfortunately, this whole mess has been treated as a political problem (by the White House as well as everyone else) rather than the story of an employer taking liberties with a staff member. We should all have pointed our collective finger at Clinton months ago, exclaimed our disgust, and then gotten on with more important business. One last thought: Some in this discussion claim that Clinton offers nothing, that he has no moral compass, etc. I want to point out the fact that, while Clinton apparently cannot control his sexual behavior, and seems to some a misogynist, he has nevertheless appointed the first female attorney general and secretary of state, and has appointed other women to positions of high power (and not, I believe, so that he could play house with them). Thus, he deserves a great deal of credit in this regard. Clinton is a flawed man. But so am I. (I shudder when I picture the Senate hearing in 2025 when I am appointed to the Supreme Court; hopefully, we will all have sobered up by then). Robert Brooks Doctoral Student The American University From rb6553a@american.edu Tue Aug 25 19:54:16 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:54:26 -0400 Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims Well said, Tom. The Monica story serves to hold our attention in part because it is so simple: President fools around with intern. We love simple stories. Iran-contra was not a simple story; neither is welfare-to-work; neither is the dismantling of affirmative action. But give the people a simple story (shocking behavior! moral outrage!) or a simple solution to a tough problem (i.e., capital punishment) and we will beg for more. Is it a decrease in attention span? A post-modern paradigm shift? Or have we always been this way? Robert Brooks From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Tue Aug 25 20:15:13 1998 Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:15:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims In-Reply-To: <8525666C.000A20A9.00@notes-gw.american.edu> What is with the "we" stuff? :) On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 rb6553a@american.edu wrote: > Well said, Tom. The Monica story serves to hold our attention in part > because it is so simple: President fools around with intern. We love simple > stories. Iran-contra was not a simple story; neither is welfare-to-work; > neither is the dismantling of affirmative action. But give the people a > simple story (shocking behavior! moral outrage!) or a simple solution to a > tough problem (i.e., capital punishment) and we will beg for more. Is it a > decrease in attention span? A post-modern paradigm shift? Or have we always > been this way? > Robert Brooks > > > From tr@tryoung.com Wed Aug 26 04:48:56 1998 (usr-mtp-47.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.47]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 06:45:23 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: FW: thesis You may have seen this before... it's been around a while but still worth a bit of a smile. TR > >> ---------- >> From: Ramiscal, Ermin >> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 12:32 PM >> To: 'Merheb, Federico J.'; Rowe, Rob >> Subject: FW: thesis >> >> >> HOW TO WRITE YOUR THESIS PAPER >> - Submitted by KSmocke >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> Scene: It's a fine beautiful day in the forest; >> and a rabbit is sitting outside his burrow, >> typing away on his lap top. >> >> Along comes a fox, out for a walk. >> >> Fox: "What are you working on?" >> Rabbit: "My Thesis paper to graduate from University." >> Fox: "Hmmmmm. What is it about?" >> Rabbit: "Oh, I'm writing about how rabbits eat foxes." >> (There is an incredulous pause) >> Fox: "That's ridiculous! >> Any fool knows that rabbits don't eat foxes!" >> Rabbit: "Come with me and I'll show you!" >> >> They both disappear into the rabbit's burrow. >> After a few minutes, gnawing on a fox bone, >> the rabbit returns to his lap top and resumes >> typing. Soon a wolf comes along and stops to >> watch the hard working rabbit. >> (Tippy-tap, tippy-tap, tippy-tippy-tap). >> >> Wolf: "What's that you are writing?" >> Rabbit: "I'm doing a thesis on how rabbits eats wolves." >> (loud guffaws). >> Wolf: "You don't expect to get such garbage >> published, do you?" >> Rabbit: "No problem. Do you want to see why?" >> >> The rabbit and the wolf go into the burrow, >> and again the rabbit returns by himself. >> This time he is patting his stomach. >> He goes back to his typing. >> (Tippy-tap, tippy-tap, tippy-tippy-tap). >> >> Finally a bear comes along and asks, >> Bear: "What are you doing?" >> Rabbit: "I'm doing a thesis on how rabbits eats bears." >> Bear: "Well that's absurd!" >> Rabbit: "Come into my home and I'll show you." >> >> SCENE: Inside the rabbit's burrow. In one corner, >> there is a pile of fox bones. In another corner is a >> pile of wolf bones. On the other side of >> the room a huge lion is belching and picking his teeth. >> >> THE MORAL OF THE STORY: >> ----------------------- >> It doesn't matter what you choose for a thesis topic. >> It doesn't matter what you use for your data. >> It doesn't even matter if your topic makes sense. >> What matters is who you have for a thesis advisor. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From conversa@iac.net Wed Aug 26 07:34:30 1998 From: conversa@iac.net Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Sexual Impeachment How can you say what Star has found? He has already indited many of Clinton's cronies and several are in jail. Clinton has obstructed justice, threatened or had his peons threaten witnesses and committed many acts of dispicable assaults on woman while in office. I am sick of Clinton apologists like you who sit back and defend this hideous man who has ruined any respect the office of the presidency had. And one last thought, don't you think it is immoral to rent out the Lincoln bedroom for $50,000 to special interests who recieve billions in tax breaks or government contracts. What is the difference between this behaviour and a prostitute? Gerry Thiemann At 09:39 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >I echo McGovern's sentiments. The question with regard to Presidential >behavior (in a legal sense) is always: "Is the offense an impeachable one?" >Kenneth Starr (and the previous independent prosecuter assigned to the >Whitewater case) did not find any evidence at all for ANY crime re the >Clintons. (Therefore, those who claim that Monica-gate is "more evidence" >of his wrongdoing are wrong themselves. There is no Whitewater-related >wrongdoing on the part of the President. This will soon be said by Mr. >Starr, who has attorneys, investigators, seemingly unlimited funds, the >power of nationwide subpoeana, and three years worth of work on this. If >there was wrongdoing, chances are pretty good he would have found >something). Is the President's admittedly disgusting behavior with a woman >not his wife an impeachable offense? Is lying about it? If the answer to >both questions is "no" (as I and the majority of Americans believe it to >be), then Mr. Starr is wasting his time as well as our money. If the above >were impeachable offenses, then at least four of the last seven Presidents >apparently should have had their own little Kenneth Starr nipping at their >ankles (or whatever). >As to morality, this sad affair is the latest in a long series of moral >panics, national obsessions absolutely out of whack with the importance of >the facts. No man or woman is perfect. And those men and women with great >power unfortunatley have the resources to magnify their imperfections on a >grand scale. Those who have contributed here, who have painted this as an >abuse of power are correct, and this case should be treated as such, not as >a six-month long continual circus. The Cirque de Soleil is less bizzare. >(I'm in Alexandria, VA and a reader of the Washington Post. The Post buries >articles such as the impending collapse of the Russian ruble under page >after page of stories about the Lewinsky story, about every major and minor >player, about stories about the stories, about whether they should print >the latest sick rumor (while describing it in detail), ad nauseum). >Unfortunately, this whole mess has been treated as a political problem (by >the White House as well as everyone else) rather than the story of an >employer taking liberties with a staff member. We should all have pointed >our collective finger at Clinton months ago, exclaimed our disgust, and >then gotten on with more important business. >One last thought: Some in this discussion claim that Clinton offers >nothing, that he has no moral compass, etc. I want to point out the fact >that, while Clinton apparently cannot control his sexual behavior, and >seems to some a misogynist, he has nevertheless appointed the first female >attorney general and secretary of state, and has appointed other women to >positions of high power (and not, I believe, so that he could play house >with them). Thus, he deserves a great deal of credit in this regard. >Clinton is a flawed man. But so am I. (I shudder when I picture the Senate >hearing in 2025 when I am appointed to the Supreme Court; hopefully, we >will all have sobered up by then). >Robert Brooks >Doctoral Student >The American University > > > > From conversa@iac.net Wed Aug 26 07:34:33 1998 From: conversa@iac.net Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims How can you say what Star has found and that the Monica stuff is so simple? He has already indited many of Clinton's cronies and several are in jail. Clinton has obstructed justice, threatened or had his peons threaten witnesses and committed many acts of dispicable assaults on woman while in office. I am sick of Clinton apologists like you who sit back and defend this hideous man who has ruined any respect the office of the presidency had. And one last thought, don't you think it is immoral to rent out the Lincoln bedroom for $50,000 to special interests who recieve billions in tax breaks or government contracts. What is the difference between this behaviour and a prostitute? Gerry Thiemann At 10:15 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote: > >What is with the "we" stuff? :) > >On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 rb6553a@american.edu wrote: > >> Well said, Tom. The Monica story serves to hold our attention in part >> because it is so simple: President fools around with intern. We love simple >> stories. Iran-contra was not a simple story; neither is welfare-to-work; >> neither is the dismantling of affirmative action. But give the people a >> simple story (shocking behavior! moral outrage!) or a simple solution to a >> tough problem (i.e., capital punishment) and we will beg for more. Is it a >> decrease in attention span? A post-modern paradigm shift? Or have we always >> been this way? >> Robert Brooks >> >> >> > > > From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Aug 26 08:29:31 1998 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 98 10:28:45 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: FUND: Nonprofit Research Grants (due 10/1/98) (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: H-NET List on Ethnic History Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: "Josef J. Barton" Subject: FUND: Nonprofit Research Grants (due 10/1/98) To: H-ETHNIC@H-NET.MSU.EDU Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:17:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dobkin Hall The Nonprofit Sector Research Fund seeks to expand understanding of nonprofit activities, including philanthropy, by supporting research undertaken by scholars and practitioners. Awards ranging from $5,000 to $50,000 will support research by any eligible applicant. Grants of up to $20,000 are also available to support doctoral dissertation research. Larger awards may be made for projects of exceptional merit. Priority Areas of Interest - Grants will be made in the following areas: The Role of Nonprofits and Philanthropy in Society Public Policy: Its Impact on Nonprofits and the People They Serve Nonprofit Accountability, Governance and Management Outstanding applications outside of the priority areas will be considered as General Interest Proposals. Special Initiative - The Nonprofit Sector Research Fund has an interest in supporting applied research that is of immediate, practical value to nonprofit managers and leaders. Under the Model Applied Research Initiative, the Fund invites proposals featuring collaborations between researchers and practitioners to improve understanding of the applied research process. Individuals or organizations interested in applying for funding under this project should specifically request Model Applied Research Initiative application materials. Deadline - The next deadline is OCTOBER 1, 1998. For application materials and additional information, visit the Fund's website at: http://www.aspeninst.org/dir/polpro/nsrf/nsrf1.html or contact us at: Nonprofit Sector Research Fund =20 The Aspen Institute 1333 New Hampshire Ave., NW, Ste. 1070,=20 Washington, DC 20036 (202) 736-5838=20 FAX: (202) 467-0790=20 e-mail: nsrf@aspeninst.org From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Aug 26 09:02:54 1998 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:02:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Sexual Impeachment In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19691231190000.006ce520@iac.net> On Wed, 31 Dec 1969 conversa@iac.net wrote: > How can you say what Star has found? > Clinton has obstructed justice, threatened or had his peons threaten > witnesses and committed many acts of dispicable assaults on woman while > in office. How can you say what Starr has found? From tombrown@jhu.edu Wed Aug 26 09:55:11 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:54:40 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu This just in on the AP wire: Kenneth Starr's investigation of the DNA on Monica Lewinsky's dress has been thwarted by the revelation today that everyone in Arkansas has the same DNA. From tombrown@jhu.edu Wed Aug 26 10:14:35 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:13:41 -0400 (EDT) From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Sexual Impeachment To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu >Clinton has obstructed justice, >threatened or had his peons threaten witnesses and committed many acts of >dispicable assaults on woman while in office. Speculation. >I am sick of Clinton >apologists like you who sit back and defend this hideous man who has ruined >any respect the office of the presidency had. Who are the apologists you're talking about? I haven't seen anyone defend Clinton, although I will do it right here, right now: His sex life is none of your business. I don't even care that he lied about it. You *should* lie when someone asks you if you've enjoyed another individual intimately. Why? Because saying "It's none of your business" leads them to think you have something to hide. Better to say "No" and change the subject. And who doesn't lie when it comes to sex? Most people lie *during* sex. As long as no one is harmed, social lies are not only acceptable, they're necessary to maintaining social order. If we told the absolute truth about everything, we'd soon piss off everyone we know. Rigid adherence to the absurd notion that lying is always wrong is as ridiculous as any other religious principle that everyone espouses but no one ever follows. >And one last thought, don't you think it is immoral to rent out the Lincoln >bedroom for $50,000 to special interests who recieve billions in tax breaks >or government contracts. Now *this* is what Starr should be focusing on. It's a real violation that affects the way government operates and harms millions of third parties. Meanwhile, the blow job is totally irrelevant to anyone else's life. The folks obssessing over it seem to be in serious need of one themselves. >What is the difference between this behaviour and >a prostitute? A prostitute gives better value to the folks getting screwed. From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Wed Aug 26 13:07:44 1998 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:06:07 -0400 (EDT) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: CFP: Int'l Affairs Grad Conference (fwd) FYI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:17:18 -0400 From: David Campbell To: H-GRAD@H-NET.MSU.EDU Subject: CFP: Int'l Affairs Grad Conference From: Brown Robert L Call For Papers Institutions in the Post-Cold War World The Graduate Student Forum (GSF) at the Elliott School for International Affairs, The George Washington University, invites submissions for: The 1998 Graduate Student Conference on International Affairs Saturday, November 14, 1998 Elliott School of International Affairs, Washington D.C. This conference will serve as a forum for current issues in international affairs and its study from governmental, non-profit, or private sector perspectives. Graduate students from all disciplines related to international affairs or area studies are invited to participate in moderated panels on issues in international affairs. This all-day conference will begin with three consecutive blocks of multiple student panels each, including a break for lunch. A keynote roundtable and reception will follow and free refreshments will be served! There is no cost to attend or present at this conference. The conference will include a keynote roundtable on: Crises in the Post-Cold War World Keynote panelists will discuss potential crises in the post-Cold War world and the possible role of institutions in causing or resolving these crises. Keynote panelists will include notable faculty and professionals. The proceedings of the keynote panel may be published and graduate student papers deemed relevant may also be included. There are four ways to participate: 1) Individual paper proposals: submit a 2-3 paragraph proposal for a presentation based on course research papers or thesis and dissertation work. Please include a brief bio and contact information. 2) Proposals for complete panels: include abstracts of the 3-5 papers to be presented and brief bios of the presenters, discussants (1-2), and chair. 3) Faculty and professionals in international affairs and interested in volunteering as panel discussants and panel chairs are also invited to submit contact information and fields of interest. 4) Just show up to hear what others have to say! Inquiries and submission of proposals should be directed to: Robert Brown, Conference Chairperson Stuart Hall B03 The George Washington University Washington DC 20052 *Electronic submissions are encouraged: rbrown7i@gwu.edu Proposals must be received by September 15, 1998. Students requiring lodging in the Washington D.C. area should contact Robert Brown for information on local hotels. GSF will also try to match up interested parties with local students for lodging. ********************************************************** Visit the H-GRAD Website at http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~grad ********************************************************** From rb6553a@american.edu Wed Aug 26 19:34:28 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:34:13 -0400 Subject: Re: the Privacy of a President: False Claims Andrew: Responding to your query about my use of the word "we": "We" means the vast majority of the American public (that includes the press, politicians, etc.). I include myself because I as well have been taken in from time to time by a good, simple story. If you're objecting to the monlithic way I view American popular opinion, I use such an all-encompassing word because I think popular opinion is frequently rather monolithic. If you are objecting to the absence of agency in my use of the word, that also is intentional. The American public in general does not make up its own mind -- it is influenced by various media sources and the constant "spin" put on such stories. Almost nowhere is there "real" debate by "real" people about political and other social isssues, such as one sees in other parts of the world. The American adage not to talk about politics and religion because it will "upset" others says it all. Robert A. Brooks From rb6553a@american.edu Wed Aug 26 19:57:32 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:57:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Sexual Impeachment Gerry: I am not a Clinton apologist. I have made it clear that I think Clinton's behavior vis a vis women in his life is despicable. But what has that got to do with being President? No one has answered that question clearly, except to talk of vague notions of embarassment, low morals, or other pseudo-thinking. Let me respond to your other points: First, the reason I know what Kenneth Starr has found is that it was on the front page of the Washington Post, which reports all of Ken Starr's leaks, daily. The Washington Post reports that Starr will send a report to the Congress containing NO evidence of criminal conduct on the part of the Clintons relating to the Whitewater deal. The entire report will focus on the Lewinsky matter. (If you have better information, please share it). Second, yes, Kenneth Starr HAS indicted friends or acquaintances of Bill and Hillary Clinton. However, some of these indictments have nothing to do with the failed land deal that is the center of the case. For instance, I believe that Webster Hubbel, one of those indicted, plead guilty to embezzling money from the Rose law firm in Arkansas, a firm of which Hillary Clinton was a partner. In esence, then, Mr. Hubbell indirectly stole money from Hillary Clinton. This is hardly a conviction that has anything to do with improper behavior on the part of the Clintons. It was only discovered because of the Whitewater investigation's looking at the firm's billing records. Others who have been tried (or in most cases pleaded guilty) have not been related AS TO THEIR CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR to either of the Clintons. Imagine the number of associates one collects over one's political lifetime. Nearly every president (e.g., Richard Nixon (Bebe Robozo)) have ended up being friends/partners/acquaintances with persons who performed unethical/criminal acts. That does not make them criminals, and once again, I say that if there was evidence, Starr, with almost unlimited resources, would likely have found it. He has not. Third, Clinton has been accused of obstructing justice, but the evidence is not clear, and we do not have the whole story. I believe in the presumption of innocence. Last, I definitely agree that renting the Lincoln bedroom to contributors is unethical and wrong. However, it is incredibly naive to think that this is somehow unusual or isolated behavior. Politicians sell access to themselves every day, in every city, state, and county of this fair country. For example, while in the Senate, Bob Dole received tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dollars from the Gallo wine family, and made sure they were treated very well in legislation. The tobacco companies own Congress, still. I could go on and on. It is the system that is sick. The Lincoln bedroom phenomenon is just the tip of the iceberg (and, see my previous posts, a "simple" example which everyone jumps on while ignoring what is going on every day, everywhere). We know that, as to private behavior with women, Clinton is a pig. We also know that Clinton will lie about his extra-marital sexual behavior. These are non impeachable offenses, and, in the larger scope of things (global warming, terrorist bombings by and against the U.S.), we should all collectively tell Clinton what a pig he is and then get over it. I am not embarrased by Clinton's behavior. No one's behavior but my own can embarras me. Sorry for the length . . . Robert Brooks From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Aug 27 15:07:59 1998 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 17:07:05 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: CFP: National Conference on Whiteness (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Subject: CFP: National Conference on Whiteness To: H-AMREL@H-NET.MSU.EDU From: Jeff Hitchcock ====================================================================== FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: PLEASE POST AND CIRCULATE WIDELY CALL FOR PRESENTERS 3rd National Conference on Whiteness November 6-8, 1998 University of Chicago Beyond "White," "Black" or "Other": Confronting Whiteness to End Racism W E ' R E I N V I T I N G . . . Organizations and individuals who are... Activists, Educators, Scholars, Organizers, Community members and leaders, Spiritual members and leaders, Artists, Trainers, Consultants, and all generally interested in supporting the theme, the mission, and goals of the conference. T O P R E S E N T . . . Workshops, panel discussions, papers, symposiums, artistic performances, roundtable discussions, and other events of potential interest to participants. F O C U S I N G O N . . . =================== OUR THEME: (Beyond "White," "Black," or "Other") We use the term "Other" to denote the centrality and focus on racism in the U.S.A. as a "black/white" issue. The title also reflects the common usage of these terms. Our goal here is to challenge all these divisions -- to get "Beyond" them -- not to endorse them. We understand Native Americans, Latinos, Asian Americans, to name a few groups, are often left out of the analysis and discussion. Our hope is to create space where dialogue occurs and awareness increases on these issues. We're specifically interested in examining how whiteness has created, contributed to and maintained the racial categorization of "white," "black" or "other" and what new ideas, strategies, tactics and definitions can be used to move beyond this idea which has been so politically, spiritually, morally, economically and socially divisive. OUR MISSION: To hear diverse voices and ideas on how to confront whiteness to end racism. OUR GOALS: * Expand the analysis of racism and "white" supremacy beyond "black" and "white" * Build alliances among antiracists to confront the legacy of "white" supremacy * Explore how ideas of "whiteness" relate to "race," class, gender, sexuality, age, ethnicity and other diverse ideas of human differences * Spark antiracist action locally and nationally * Explore strategies and tactics to make the discussion of "whiteness" and antiracism a mainstream issue * Bridge the experiences of academics and activists * Develop more accessible and effective language to discuss concepts of "race" and racism * Encourage "white" people to examine their role in the perpetuation of racism both personally and as members of the "white" race * Make sure people of all "racial" and cultural groups are involved in leadership roles in the study of "whiteness" * Explore how "whiteness" has denied the "multiracial" heritage and history of the U.S.A. and its people * Explore the history of the idea of "whiteness" and its relationship to racial oppression, the idea of "non-white" inferiority and the idea of "white" supremacy H O W T O S U B M I T A P R O P O S A L Send us a 1-page description of your presentation, workshop, event etc. Include your name and contact information. Indicate the length of your event. We are blocking program time for events either 1 hour in length (60 minutes) or 2 and 1/2 hours in length (150 minutes). If you are proposing an event of some other length, please specify this. Depending on the proposal we may or may not be able to find a space on the program. Indicate space or equipment requirements if you need more than a simple classroom and blackboard setting. Simple is better, but we will try to accommodate special needs. When possible, (to help us) please submit proposals by email. This helps us keep our cost low and to circulate submissions for review. Email submissions should be sent to contact@euroamerican.org If you do not have email, we will accept proposals by U.S. mail at Center for Study, 245 West 4th Avenue, Roselle, NJ 07203 We will begin selecting proposals October 1, 1998. Submissions will be reviewed until all remaining positions on the schedule are full. For information on the submission process, please contact Jeff Hitchcock, Executive Director, Center for the Study of White American Culture by phone at (908) 241-5439 or by email at jeffhitchcock@euroamerican.org T O P R E S E N T E R S . . . The National Conference on Whiteness, an annual event, drew over 300 people in Cambridge, Mass. last November. From our start, we have envisioned the conference as a 20-year series that not only looks at whiteness, but also mobilizes the attention and resources needed to act on it on a national scale. This year, our third, we're planning for 500 participants. As with last year's event, funding is limited. The conference is administered by a collection of small nonprofit organizations, i.e. we have no large institutional sponsor. Over 95% of our funds came from registration fees. We can not reimburse expenses to presenters. But if you do present, we recommend you take advantage of our sliding registration fee scale (from $150 down to $15) commensurate with your contribution, and balanced against the difficulty or success you have in obtaining other funding. We look forward to continuing our relationship with those who have worked with us previously, and we encourage those just hearing about us to join the process. For more information on the conference, check the conference web site being hosted at www.euroamerican.org. From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 30 03:51:15 1998 by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 05:47:06 -0400 To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Really well-trained Dogs sssitalk@sun.soci.niu.edu, social-class@listserv.uic.edu >From: freedom@prairienet.org (Freedom Heart Rising) >To: freedom@prairienet.org >>By Norman Solomon / Creators Syndicate >> >> >> During the week after U.S. missiles hit sites in Sudan and >>Afghanistan, some Americans seemed uncomfortable. A vocal >>minority even voiced opposition. But approval was routine among >>those who had learned a few easy Orwellian lessons. >> >> When terrorists attack, they're terrorizing. When we attack, >>we're retaliating. When they respond to our retaliation with >>further attacks, they're terrorizing again. When we respond with >>further attacks, we're retaliating again. >> >> When people decry civilian deaths caused by the U.S. >>government, they're aiding propaganda efforts. In sharp contrast, >>when civilian deaths are caused by bombers who hate America, the >>perpetrators are evil and those deaths are tragedies. >> >> When they put bombs in cars and kill people, they're >>uncivilized killers. When we put bombs on missiles and kill >>people, we're upholding civilized values. >> >> When they kill, they're terrorists. When we kill, we're >>striking against terror. >> >> At all times, Americans must be kept fully informed about >>who to hate and fear. When the United States found Osama bin >>Laden useful during the 1980s because of his tenacious violence >>against the Soviet occupiers in Afghanistan, he was good, or at >>least not bad -- but now he's really bad. >> >> No matter how many times they've lied in the past, U.S. >>officials are credible in the present. When they vaguely cite >>evidence that the bombed pharmaceutical factory in Khartoum was >>making ingredients for nerve gas, that should be good enough for >>us. >> >> Might doesn't make right -- except in the real world, when >>it's American might. Only someone of dubious political >>orientation would split hairs about international law. >> >> When the mass media in some foreign countries serve as >>megaphones for the rhetoric of their government, the result is >>ludicrous propaganda. When the mass media in our country serve as >>megaphones for the rhetoric of the U.S. government, the result is >>responsible journalism. >> >> Unlike the TV anchors spouting the government line in places >>like Sudan and Afghanistan, ours don't have to be told what to >>say. They have the freedom to report as they choose. >> >> "Circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks his whip," George >>Orwell observed, "but the really well-trained dog is the one that >>turns his somersault when there is no whip." >> >> Orwell noted that language "becomes ugly and inaccurate >>because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our >>language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts." And >>his novel "1984" explained that "the special function of certain >>Newspeak words ... was not so much to express meanings as to >>destroy them." >> >> National security. Western values. The world community. War >>against terrorism. Collateral damage. American interests. >> >> What's so wondrous about Orwellian processes is that they >>tend to be very well camouflaged -- part of the normal scenery. >>Day in and day out, we take them for granted. And we're apt to >>stay away from uncharted mental paths. >> >> In "1984," Orwell wrote about the conditioned reflex of >>"stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any >>dangerous thought ... and of being bored or repelled by any train >>of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction." >> >> Orwell described "doublethink" as the willingness "to forget >>any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes >>necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long >>as it is needed." >> >> In his afterword to "1984," Erich Fromm emphasized "the >>point which is essential for the understanding of Orwell's book, >>namely that `doublethink' is already with us, and not merely >>something which will happen in the future, and in dictatorships." >> >> Fifty-two years ago, Orwell wrote an essay titled "Politics >>and the English Language." Today, his words remain as relevant as >>ever: "In our time, political speech and writing are largely the >>defense of the indefensible." >> >> Repression and atrocities "can indeed be defended," Orwell >>added, "but only by arguments which are too brutal for most >>people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims >>of political parties. Thus political language has to consist >>largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy >>vagueness." >> >> National security. Western values. The world community. War >>against terrorism. Collateral damage. American interests. >> >> >> >>Forwarded Material Ends. >>------ ************* >>The greatest challenge of the day is: >>how to bring about a revolution of the >>heart, a revolution that has to start >>with each one of us?" >>-Dorothy Day >> >> > > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 30 05:37:54 1998 (usr-mtp-65.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.65]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:34:17 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Postmodern sOZiology teachsoc@maple.lemoyne.edu, sssitalk@sun.soci.niu.edu A new version of Liberating Sociology: the Graduate Student is now available in the Red Feather Archives. It is a version which incorporates an affirmative postmodern critique of American Sociology complete with names and places. It asks the question: Who is Dorothy at your University and How can you help her build a praxis sOZiology??? For the exciting story of the many adventures Dorothy and her Students have on the Yellow Brick Road to Success in American Sociology, double click on the website below: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/024sOZiology.htm TRYoung, Self-Proclaimed Offizial Socializt Historian of the Wonderful Land of sOZiology TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From porpin@mail.la.utexas.edu Sun Aug 30 09:18:45 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:20:31 -0600 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: porpin@mail.la.utexas.edu (Peter Orpin) Subject: Well-trained dogs A comment on T R Young and his Really Well-trained dogs. Whilst not disputing the validity of his analysis of political double-speak I find the implication that this is somehow unique to the political process and something that 'they' engage in, rather tiresome. A moderate level of knowledge of sociology and psychology should be sufficient to understand that cognitive dissonance and mechanisms for dealing with it are part and parcel of social life for ALL of us. This goes all the way from 'honest' God-fearing citizens who can rationalise cheating on their tax and 'Greenies' who rail against pollution and then smoke tobacco, to political leaders who can separate their public and private morality. This is not some sort of malignant abberration but an essential mechanism for dealing with often incompatible demands of competing normative structures and clashing role requirements. This is not an argument for hypocrisy or duplicity in either private or public life but merely a call for the recognition that this is something with which we all need to keep struggling on a continuing basis not just a problem with political life - not a failing of political morality but a 'fact' of social life. In the same vein, any 'belonging' necessitates, by its very nature, the definition of those who don't belong - every 'us' creates a 'them' or alternatively to maintain a sense of 'us' requires a continual deliniation of the boundaries of inclusion and exclusion and redefinition of 'them'. As an Australian let me say that it seems to me, on short aquaintance, that one of the great strengths of American social structure is its well defined sense of self - whilst this leads to a deal of labelling of 'enemies' it also gives it the capacity to be inclusive of a huge cultural diversity with relatively minimal fuss. Again this is not just part of the political process but part of social life. Such boundaries are dynamic, shifting and complexly interactive. To seek to dismantle all such boundaries (if it were possible - which it is not) would involve dismantling our identities - we need to acknowledge their function and to manage them is socially constructive ways. Social beings are always engaged in that impossible balancing act of reconciling individuality and belonging and normative structures that are highly internally contradictory. Our political systems/stuctures are a mirror of a larger social structure. Peter Orpin Temporarily of Utexas From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Aug 30 09:35:25 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:35:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Well-trained dogs In-Reply-To: So the double-speak of the state ideologue is not calculated propaganda but an expression of cognitive dissonance? Is your post itself supposed to be a representative example of the natural social mode of rationalization you hypostatize as the human condition? Makes me proud to be missed among the count of the "normal." Andy On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Peter Orpin wrote: > A comment on T R Young and his Really Well-trained dogs. Whilst not > disputing the validity of his analysis of political double-speak I find the > implication that this is somehow unique to the political process and > something that 'they' engage in, rather tiresome. A moderate level of > knowledge of sociology and psychology should be sufficient to understand > that cognitive dissonance and mechanisms for dealing with it are part and > parcel of social life for ALL of us. This goes all the way from 'honest' > God-fearing citizens who can rationalise cheating on their tax and > 'Greenies' who rail against pollution and then smoke tobacco, to political > leaders who can separate their public and private morality. This is not > some sort of malignant abberration but an essential mechanism for dealing > with often incompatible demands of competing normative structures and > clashing role requirements. > This is not an argument for hypocrisy or duplicity in either private or > public life but merely a call for the recognition that this is something > with which we all need to keep struggling on a continuing basis not just a > problem with political life - not a failing of political morality but a > 'fact' of social life. > > In the same vein, any 'belonging' necessitates, by its very nature, the > definition of those who don't belong - every 'us' creates a 'them' or > alternatively to maintain a sense of 'us' requires a continual deliniation > of the boundaries of inclusion and exclusion and redefinition of 'them'. As > an Australian let me say that it seems to me, on short aquaintance, that > one of the great strengths of American social structure is its well defined > sense of self - whilst this leads to a deal of labelling of 'enemies' it > also gives it the capacity to be inclusive of a huge cultural diversity > with relatively minimal fuss. > > Again this is not just part of the political process but part of social > life. Such boundaries are dynamic, shifting and complexly interactive. To > seek to dismantle all such boundaries (if it were possible - which it is > not) would involve dismantling our identities - we need to acknowledge > their function and to manage them is socially constructive ways. Social > beings are always engaged in that impossible balancing act of reconciling > individuality and belonging and normative structures that are highly > internally contradictory. Our political systems/stuctures are a mirror of a > larger social structure. > Peter Orpin > Temporarily of Utexas > > > From porpin@mail.la.utexas.edu Sun Aug 30 11:15:09 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:16:57 -0600 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: porpin@mail.la.utexas.edu (Peter Orpin) Subject: Re: Well-trained dogs >Andy, Of course its calculated propaganda - nor do I think it should go unchallenged. I just think 'they' are not alone in engaging in same and we should expand that challenge to acknowledge our own involvement in the processes. It's use is not confined to one political persuasion or structural level. The argument is not to dodge the issues but to acknowledge both our own involvement in the process (however distant) and the tendency to disown the process as somehow an abberration (a cancer that somehow can be excised and the social will be returned to health) rather than integral. The very long history of such processes (as long as written history at all levels of social structure from nation state to family) should be some pointer to its integral place in social process. This is the point where the left and right meet at the back of the circle: in a belief in the possibility of cleaning up and simplifying the social world - I just happen to believe that the social world is messy and complex and paradoxical and we need to deal with it on those terms. I am truly glad if you have managed to simplify your life to the point where you don't have to feed yourself some creative propaganda (calculated or otherwise) every now and then or to use such processes in any level of your life, but for me part of the interest in life is the ambiguity and complexity. As an aside, it would appear that Orwell himself managed a little political doublespeak if recent reports that he acted as a sometime informant for British intellegence on the activities of his collegues, have any veracity. I don't understand the meaning of the sentence beginning 'is your post' - what 'post'? As a reciprocal exchange student I certainly have considerable doubts and ambiguities about what I am doing and why? If I was fully certain and fixed in where I stood on all the major issues in my life I would either be God (whoever she is) or a complete fool. Bronowski in his groundbreaking TV series "The Ascent of Man" closes with exactly that point - historically the most dangerous and destructive actors have been those sure of their position and righteousness. The most dangerous temptation for the sociologist is to think they know enough about the world now to go out and fix it up - the unexpected consequences seem to get them every time. Peter Orpin So the double-speak of the state ideologue is not calculated propaganda >but an expression of cognitive dissonance? Is your post itself supposed to >be a representative example of the natural social mode of rationalization >you hypostatize as the human condition? Makes me proud to be missed among >the count of the "normal." > >Andy > >On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Peter Orpin wrote: > >> A comment on T R Young and his Really Well-trained dogs. Whilst not >> disputing the validity of his analysis of political double-speak I find the >> implication that this is somehow unique to the political process and >> something that 'they' engage in, rather tiresome. A moderate level of >> knowledge of sociology and psychology should be sufficient to understand >> that cognitive dissonance and mechanisms for dealing with it are part and >> parcel of social life for ALL of us. This goes all the way from 'honest' >> God-fearing citizens who can rationalise cheating on their tax and >> 'Greenies' who rail against pollution and then smoke tobacco, to political >> leaders who can separate their public and private morality. This is not >> some sort of malignant abberration but an essential mechanism for dealing >> with often incompatible demands of competing normative structures and >> clashing role requirements. >> This is not an argument for hypocrisy or duplicity in either private or >> public life but merely a call for the recognition that this is something >> with which we all need to keep struggling on a continuing basis not just a >> problem with political life - not a failing of political morality but a >> 'fact' of social life. >> >> In the same vein, any 'belonging' necessitates, by its very nature, the >> definition of those who don't belong - every 'us' creates a 'them' or >> alternatively to maintain a sense of 'us' requires a continual deliniation >> of the boundaries of inclusion and exclusion and redefinition of 'them'. As >> an Australian let me say that it seems to me, on short aquaintance, that >> one of the great strengths of American social structure is its well defined >> sense of self - whilst this leads to a deal of labelling of 'enemies' it >> also gives it the capacity to be inclusive of a huge cultural diversity >> with relatively minimal fuss. >> >> Again this is not just part of the political process but part of social >> life. Such boundaries are dynamic, shifting and complexly interactive. To >> seek to dismantle all such boundaries (if it were possible - which it is >> not) would involve dismantling our identities - we need to acknowledge >> their function and to manage them is socially constructive ways. Social >> beings are always engaged in that impossible balancing act of reconciling >> individuality and belonging and normative structures that are highly >> internally contradictory. Our political systems/stuctures are a mirror of a >> larger social structure. >> Peter Orpin >> Temporarily of Utexas >> >> >> From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Aug 30 11:55:46 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:55:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Well-trained dogs In-Reply-To: Let me put this another way. Yes, it is true that many ordinary people engage to some degree in double-talk, but a real sense of proportion and qualitative distinction is missing in your polemic to TR. My wife finding a euphemistic way to tell me that my hair looks shabby is not the same thing as the US state discounting war dead as "collateral damage." Andy From rb6553a@american.edu Sun Aug 30 12:11:33 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:11:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Well-trained dogs Peter Orpin's comments are well taken, in a general sense; however, I did not read TR's original post as claiming that the process of doublespeak regarding the current "war on terrorism" was unique to the political process, or indeed to any particular place and time. I read it as a frustrated rant at the duplicity of our government, and the complicity of the press. TR did not claim that this was a departure from the past; indeed, I am sure that he considers such processes deeply imbeddded in American social and psychological life. We can look as far back as the yellow journalism of the Spanish-American War period (and I'm sure even earlier) to find similar examples of the government/press "conspiracy." What I find particularly interesting is TR's point suggesting the United States' expedient use of individuals or countries when such use meets our short term interests, and then the inevitable rejection and negative labeling of such persons/countries when our interests no longer mesh, or the force which held us together wanes. The U.S. seems to ascribe without thought to the adage that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." This is terribly simplistic and dangerous. The U.S. arms the world, and then cries foul when those arms are turned against us. (Imagine, as Peter Orpin suggests, if we all lead our individual lives that way). I saw something pretty abominable on the Tonight Show the other night (the second time in the last ten years I've watched the show). Jay Leno ran a tape of bin Laden speaking, and simultaneously ran an audio of "bin Laden" doing a sort of terrorist stand up routine, full of clever one-liners about bombs and hating America. Of course, the result was that bin Laden was made to look like a silly clown; the studio audience ate it up. So everyone contributes to the war on terrorism in his or her own way -- the official government line says that bin Laden is the anti-Christ, and the talk show host soothes us by saying "oh, he's not really a threat; just another kooky old Mid-east type." I wondered if relatives of the people killed in the embassy bombings were watching the show, and what they were thinking. Robert A. Brooks From porpin@mail.la.utexas.edu Sun Aug 30 12:30:52 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:32:41 -0600 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: porpin@mail.la.utexas.edu (Peter Orpin) Subject: Re: Well-trained dogs Andy, Thanks for the example - it helps me in making my point. The US state, in terming war dead 'collateral damage' are not fooling its citizens, its aiding and abetting them in fooling themselves - we all know what it really means, but its a lot more comfortable this way. They wouldn't do it if they didn't know that it would be more acceptable all round. Propoganda only works when people would prefer to believe what they are being told I'm making this up as I go (and thanks for the opportunity) but I think that in one way I am saying that your two examples are expressions of the same social mechanisms at vastly different scales (maybe with even some of the same interests at stake) - that is not to say that all consequences are equal, not is this a discussion of right or wrong - that's another issue, only that the two are not as disconnected as we like to believe. This is, I think, beginning to be addressed by those applying fractal theory to sociology. Peter O >Let me put this another way. Yes, it is true that many ordinary people >engage to some degree in double-talk, but a real sense of proportion and >qualitative distinction is missing in your polemic to TR. My wife finding >a euphemistic way to tell me that my hair looks shabby is not the same >thing as the US state discounting war dead as "collateral damage." > >Andy From tr@tryoung.com Sun Aug 30 13:12:40 1998 (usr-mtp-50.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.50]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:08:59 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: resources to check out... A couple great websites for curious grad students http://www.pscw.uva.nl/sociosite/TOPICS/Theory.html http://www.yorku.ca/faculty/academic/idavies/teaching/newlink.htm TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Aug 30 14:27:19 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 16:22:42 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: On the Overproduction of PhD's To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Comments? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 08:43:52 -0700 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Scott Kerlin Subject: Regarding ABDs Hi everyone: I hope this discussion will continue, for the sake of the many people who are on different sides of the doctorate (i.e. considering getting one, in the midst of completing or not completing one, or having gotten one) and who are asking questions like "am I the only one going through this?" Believe me, you're not, but it certainly can feel that way at times. I often wonder and I would love for seasoned faculty to be able to answer this: is it a deliberate or "unanticipated" part of the process to admit students to doctoral programs and then, abandon supporting them (either financially or academically) somewhere along the line (or worse, use the work of doctoral students to build personal careers while telling the same students they aren't the right "fit" for the academy)? Yes, some of this is individual behavior by some professors, but at some point, it becomes a *systemic* problem. I'm currently subscribed to the SCIFRAUD list and on there, as well as in many articles published recently in the Chronicle of Higher Education, I've seen articles that tell stories of mistreatment of doctoral students and "expropriation" of their ideas (sometimes leading to lawsuits). Where is concern about ethical treatment of graduate students in today's universities? Do most universities even see this as a concern, one that needs policies of accountability? I know this may sound extreme, but I ask these questions from personal observation of many graduate students' stories, interviews of others, and personal experience. I have talked with so many doctoral students over the years who've reached points of discouragement, not because of lack of intellectual abilities, but because of the entire process--one that often seems to be more about "compliance and conformity" and wearing people's originality down rather than about "developing one's scholarly voice". Perhaps it is because I'm teaching a senior level course in sociological theory this term and we're about to begin discussions, but I"ve found with the new year that many of my students are asking hard questions about the academic profession and what it takes to become a college or university teacher. I am encouraging my students to pay attention to the *system* of academia and how it seems to be set up more to *discourage* than to *encourage* students. And nowhere have I seen this more pronounced than in the doctoral process. Has it gotten worse over time because of the tight labor market for tenure-track positions, I wonder? Or has it *always* been this abusive? Too many smart, capable doctoral students are getting "cooled out" (to use Burton Clark's terminology) before they finish, for reasons that Bobbi and I have been exploring for many years. Yet even so, there are near record numbers of annual Ph.D.'s being granted across the U.S. in spite of radical declines in job opportunities in universities for tenure-track full-time teaching faculty since the 1970s. All this, even though there were "warnings" 10 years ago that there were going to be tremendous faculty shortages when profs hired in the 1960s and 1970s retire. These shortages just haven't materialized, as far as I can see. What happened? For me, the ultimate question boils down to this: Is this entire situation an *intentional* outcome of the academy? Do universities *care* about the huge number of ABDs who never finish (estimates run as high as 50 to 60% of all doctoral students who begin their programs never complete the doctorate)? Scott Kerlin, with Bobbi Kerlin Hosts, AERA-GSL Graduate Studies Discussion List Scott's E-Mail: skerlin@teleport.com WWW: http://www.teleport.com/~skerlin Graduate Studies Research Page: http://www.teleport.com/~skerlin/gradstudies.html Bobbi's E-Mail: kerlinb@pdx.edu Bobbi's Home Page: http://www.irn.pdx.edu Bobbi's Research Page: http://www.irn.pdx.edu/~kerlinb/myresearch/myresearch.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Trudy Mercer Subject: Seminar Size (Was:Re: Regarding ABDs) In-Reply-To: On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Scott Kerlin wrote: (snip) > full-time teaching faculty since the 1970s. All this, even though there > were "warnings" 10 years ago that there were going to be tremendous > faculty shortages when profs hired in the 1960s and 1970s retire. These > shortages just haven't materialized, as far as I can see. What happened? (snip) > Scott Kerlin, with Bobbi Kerlin > Hosts, AERA-GSL Graduate Studies Discussion List Hi gang, This snipet of Scott & Bobbi's message got me to thinking about a recent email conversation I had with a friend who just started a doctoral program. She completed her MA at a small university & moved to a larger one to do her doctoral work. In a recent post she mentioned the size of the seminars that she is attending to be 20-22 students, whereas at the smaller univ. a large class was 10-11 students. I have had the same experience at the university I am attending. I am nearly finised with my MA and I have had only one seminar with 11 students, one with 16 and the rest 20-22, even though I was led to belive that the maximun class size was 15 students.(all mixed with MA & doctoral students) The smaller classes are only those in very specialized areas. (I should mention we're both in English depts.) The larger classes seem especially common when they are coss listed between departments. I understand that profs who conduct popular seminars want to permit as many students as possible to take advantage of the opportunity, espcially when they are only offered once a year or so. But I am wondering if universities are taking advantage of this at a time when budgets are tight and demand for graduate education is high. I had senior seminars as an undergrad at the same university where the class size was strictly limited. Trudy Mercer tmercer@u.washington.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Tor Neilands Subject: Re: Regarding ABDs Scott (Hi, Scott!) wrote: >For me, the ultimate question boils down to this: Is this entire situation >an *intentional* outcome of the academy? Do universities *care* about the >huge number of ABDs who never finish (estimates run as high as 50 to 60% >of all doctoral students who begin their programs never complete the >doctorate)? To the extent that one can make broad, sweeping generalizations from small amounts of data (always a risky proposition), my experience suggests the answer to the latter question is a resounding "no". As I went through my doctoral program, it helped me tremendously to view the university as a business where students are one more commodity. Imagine you a professor at a university. You have five graduate students who assist you with teaching and research activities. In the good old days, these students' reward for leading some of your course sections and performing research in your laboratory would be a strong letter of recommendation that would land them jobs somewhere. Not everyone got a position at Harvard or Stanford, but students who worked hard would get a position. As you pointed out in your post, the job market has changed, yet universities keep cranking out the freshly-minted Ph.D.s. I suspect this is the case because there is no incentive for faculty to reduce the number of students they accept into their programs. Returning to our example, if you have the opportunity to have ten students instead of five, even if some of those students don't finish the dissertation or cannot get a job if they do finish, would you take that opportunity? Yes, you will, even if you don't necessarily want to. If you don't, someone else will and you have your own pressures to deal with, pressures that demand you create more with less resources. And you're in competetion with those faculty who will take on more students. You feel compelled to do the same to keep up. In some ways faculty researchers and instructors are caught in the tragedy of the commons bind. There is no incentive I'm aware for faculty to reduce the number of students under their supervision and plenty of incentives for the them to continue accepting and supervising as many students as they can. As one cynical colleague of mine put it, "Academia is a pyramid scheme, like _______ " (fill in the name of your favorite pyramid scheme-like company. Graduate students hope to get to the next tier up, faculty status. Faculty hope to get to the next tier up, tenure. Tenured faculty hope to get to full professorships and perhaps administration. Each level is more attractive than the level that preceeds it but there is intense competition for scarce resources at every level and success is built upon the backs of those at the level below. Again, these are simply my subjective impressions based upon my own experience and the experiences of those graduate students and new Ph.D.'s I've spoken with over the years. Take it with a grain of salt accordingly. I do believe, however, that until the incentive system in academia is radically changed, the actions taken to date, while helpful, are still at the bandaid level rather than a long-term fix. cheers, TBN p.s. The SCIFRAUD list you mentioned in your post sounds interesting. Would you post the subscription instructions to AERA-GSL? Thanks, Scott! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:48:17 -0400 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Valda Svede Subject: Re: Regarding ABDs In-Reply-To: <199808301221.HAA01870@moe.cc.utexas.edu> If you are good at applying for grants, or have built up a group of students and staff that you work with for paid assistantships, grants, and contracts, and they generate more grants at your direction, and you can employ anyone you need - what incentive does the system have to take on doctoral students at all? or take any special effort to help them succeed? I have seen many research based universities where faculty are functioning quite well in their own realm, creating publications and doing research and students looking for a dissertation advisor and committee are hard pressed to find anyone at all unless they want to beg and burden the already overburdened faculty who do engage in a lot of student leadership activities. Then, as these students do obtain permission to have one of these superstar faculty as an advisor, they are so busy with their own deadlines that students must wait months or half a year to get any contact with these people and basically either do all the work with an absentee advisor, or delay their own graduation for a year or more while waiting for some time from these people, or give up. I don't see any easy solution to that one if there really is no administrative mechanism in place to at least monitor, distribute or facilitatie the student progress towards a doctorate. For example, if accreditation of the program was linked to a numeric suggested range of average years to completion of the doctorate, or continuous tenure was linked to a numeric percentage success rate of their students to graduate, then we might start to see some accountability mechanisms that had some results. Sure, I am new to the process, but unless major linkages to real results are created, I don't see any change happening in the way things are or have been with regards to advising students - and I am not even touching the issue of intellectual theft at all, I think this alone is a serious problem to look at on its own. If you have wonderful scholars, I am not saying tell them to stop it, but as a larger overall issue, those students who are presumably paying dollars with the expectation of certain base levels of assistance are being cheated of their value for their money - is that not fraud? I have never heard of a faculty position advertised that is called student advisor with only one course taught, or nil, to take on the needed student advising duties that are not currently being performed - but if the system is not going to change fundamentally, then how can it continue on in this way and pretend that there are any educational standards or quality control in place in higher education? My three cents, Valda, Valda Svede, Ed.D. student,TPS-GSA rep. e-mail: Educational Administration Group vsvede@oise.utoronto.ca Department of Theory and Policy Studies in Education Ontario Institute for Studies in Education Leadership Website: University of Toronto http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/~vsvede/ From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Aug 30 18:59:57 1998 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 20:57:03 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Sociology of Medicine Job To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- All H-Net Job Listings August 31, 1998 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- See our Web version at http://www.matrix.msu.edu/jobs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 42. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (NY) Assistant Professor, Sociology of Medicine Department of Science and Technology Studies invites applications for a tenure-track position open at the assistant professor level. Completed PhD preferred. The ideal candidate should have a research interest in social studies of health and medicine, and should be able to teach the introduction to sociology and advanced undergraduate courses in the sociology of medicine. The candidate is also expected to be able to contribute to the graduate programs in STS and to work well in the department's interdisciplinary humanities and social sciences environment. Some combination of the following research and teaching interests is also desirable: environmental health, technology and design, law and policy, information technology, and quantitative research methods. The department has a full range of STS degree programs from BS to PhD. Rensselaer is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer and encourages applications from women and members of minority groups. Send CV, the names of three references, and one example of work to John Schumacher, Chair, STS Department, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY 12180-3590. Screening will begin November 1, 1998, and will continue until the position is filled. Applications received after November 1, 1998, cannot be guaranteed full consideration. Starting date is August, 1999. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pfl661@airmail.net Mon Aug 31 00:50:11 1998 (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.252) with smtp for sender: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:51:04 -0500 From: "Phyllis L. Flott" Reply-To: pfl661@airmail.net To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Well-trained dogs The idea that deception is part of life and part of politics is hard to argue against as you read the diplomatic history of almost any major power. Yet there does seem to be something qualitatively different in the type of deception (and collusion) practiced by the press and leaders. My mother has an interest in the history of the Indian Wars that reached their peak after the Civil War. In self-defense :) I've started to read through this material from a sociological perspective. There seems to be much less deception about the long term goals of the Indian Wars. There was clearly a policy of destroying horses, tents and any other materials needed to survive in the Plains and Southwest. Since the last bands would not voluntarily resettle to reservations, their means of survival had to be destroyed to make settlers safe and to civilize the Indians--according to the press. However, when you get to around the time period surrounding Wounded Knee, (1890) there seems to be a debate as to the propriety of the military actions. When there is no longer unified support of the military, the press seems to take the position that they must support the military. Reports seem to be uncomfortable with the number of women and children and seem to be looking for some way to justify the actions taken. Of course, my sample of materials is small yet I wonder if this is related to the current press support of the bombing of a major metropolitan area. If the press senses that they are opinion leaders or there is division among the populace, they have a need to take a position or fall back to the official story. When something is seen as obviously correct or has widespread support, then the press is more likely to report the facts and let them speak for themselves. During times of division, do members of the press sense that their unique social position is threatened? Were people fooled? I don't know. But I don't think that after the carnage of the civil war that the average person really wanted to think about the fact that most Indian bands were primarily composed of women and children (males had a short life expectancy. They were, in many cases trying to put their lives back together from the effects of the Civil War. If there is a parallel to draw here it is that for great powers to do as they wish, all they need to do is to distract the population with other problems or issues and then have the buffer classes such as the press muddy the waters further by supporting the status quo. Phyllis Peter Orpin wrote: > > Andy, > Thanks for the example - it helps me in making my point. The US state, in > terming war dead 'collateral damage' are not fooling its citizens, its > aiding and abetting them in fooling themselves - we all know what it really > means, but its a lot more comfortable this way. They wouldn't do it if they > didn't know that it would be more acceptable all round. Propoganda only > works when people would prefer to believe what they are being told > I'm making this up as I go (and thanks for the opportunity) but I think > that in one way I am saying that your two examples are expressions of the > same social mechanisms at vastly different scales (maybe with even some of > the same interests at stake) - that is not to say that all consequences are > equal, not is this a discussion of right or wrong - that's another issue, > only that the two are not as disconnected as we like to believe. This is, I > think, beginning to be addressed by those applying fractal theory to > sociology. > Peter O > > >Let me put this another way. Yes, it is true that many ordinary people > >engage to some degree in double-talk, but a real sense of proportion and > >qualitative distinction is missing in your polemic to TR. My wife finding > >a euphemistic way to tell me that my hair looks shabby is not the same > >thing as the US state discounting war dead as "collateral damage." > > > >Andy From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 31 04:10:40 1998 (usr-mtp-55.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.55]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 06:07:06 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: A Song for Solomon Dear friends: it may appear to some that I was author of the post, 'Really W-T Dogs...' I regret very much if that were the case; all due credit for 'Really Well-Trained Dogs' should go to Norman Solomon and to Creators Syndicate I had recieved the original post from my good friend, Bill Farrell at U/Michigan/Flint and had only added the subject title from a line in the post...before I sent it on to you all. The post I sent did have the following as leader: >From: freedom@prairienet.org (Freedom Heart Rising) >To: freedom@prairienet.org >>By Norman Solomon / Creators Syndicate >> kindest, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 31 05:24:08 1998 (usr-mtp-55.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.55]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 07:20:33 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: State Crime in and by the USA teachsoc@maple.lemoyne.edu Some years ago, I was commissioned to write a paper on State Crime in the USA...for a book on State Crime around the world...for those interested in controlling state crime and for a few definitions thereof as well as some ideas on how to control state crime at home, you might want to take a look. http://www.tryoung.com/archives/180StateCrime.htm For those grad students at U/Oregon, the paper is dedicated to the Memory of my good friend, Al Syzmanski...I know you did not have a chance to study with him but a lot of grad students did and well remember him as good friend and mentor. Finally, it is not a great pleasure to talk and theorize about state crime in or by the USA...I cherish this vast and complex country as well as the great cultural riches it has and is producing. Do not mistake my criticism as a hostile act; it is an effort to make a great country better...an act of love, as it were. It took me 26 pages to list all that is Great about the USA; the listings are found at: http://www.tryoung.com/TRsPage/polpoetry/america.html bless us, one and all, TR TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Mon Aug 31 07:41:13 1998 Received: from H50.sensible-net.com (Inside.sensible-net.com [208.18.224.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA06784 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 07:41:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net (usr-mtp-39.sensible-net.com [208.18.226.39]) by H50.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA7955; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:43:19 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980831093736.0093b100@tryoung.com> X-Sender: tr@tryoung.com Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:37:36 -0400 To: sssitalk@sun.soci.niu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Some Theses on the Structure of Self Cc: social-class@listserv.uic.edu, ahs-talk@ncsu.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A paper on the structure of self in mass capitalist societies has been added to the Archives of the Transforming Sociology Series: for those interested in radicalized social psychology, the paper may be found at: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/037thesesself.htm TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Aug 31 13:26:19 1998 Received: from UCONNVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id NAA05267 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:26:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: by UCONNVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via spool with SMTP id 4287 ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:25:40 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5305; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:25:40 -0400 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 98 15:25:30 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: Request for Input from TA's (fwd) To: teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu cc: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU, grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Message-Id: <980831.152540.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:21:08 -0400 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Maria Navarro Subject: Request for Input from TA's To: AERA-GSL@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU I am looking for any teaching assistants to respond to the following questions which will be published in the Journal of Teaching Assistants under the column TA Talk. If you would like to answer any of these questions, please include your name, your department and the college/university you are in.Also, please remember to respond ONLY to me. Thanks in advance! 1)Please describe the various teaching approaches you use in your classroom to convey the content to the students? 2) Please describe why you choose to be a graduate teaching assistant as opposed to a graduate research assistant? 3)Do you feel as a graduate teaching assistant your teaching should be evaluated? If so, how do you see this evaluation taking place? From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Aug 31 14:56:10 1998 Received: from UCONNVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA11303 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:56:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by UCONNVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via spool with SMTP id 4665 ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:55:30 EDT Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0671; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:55:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 98 16:54:14 EDT From: Alan Davidson Subject: TA survey To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU, teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu, grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Message-Id: <980831.165530.EDT.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Please send the results of the TA survey to the original poster, and not to me. Other list members might be interested in discussing whatever compilation emerges.