From tr@tryoung.com Sun Mar 1 06:31:05 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: cm150-l@mtu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Everyday is an anniversary of the Manifesto psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 08:34:18 -0500 Criticisms and reconventions of the Communist Manifesto continue to be helpful to the human project of converting a magnificent system of production into a good and decent system of distribution... The Manifesto of 1848, whatever its historical, theoretical and political faults in the 19th century; whatever its failure to capture the changes of the 20th century, continues to transcend those criticisms and remain central to the human struggle for social justice on a number of counts: 1. Along with the US Constitution and the Pentateuch, it continues to inspire those billions on earth who read about, think about and desire a better society than the racist, sexist, class-ridden society now found around most of the world. 2. It was the first widely read document to put human conflict and human promise in the sweep and run of macro-economic and political forces, taking those problems and hopes out of the realm of gods, kings and popes...and relocating problems on the back of oppressors while investing hopes in the hands of the oppressed. 3. It continues to be important to a critique of capitalism in that, while the details may be wrong or dated, still the message remains: wealth is created collectively; it must be put to collective use. 4. The future of capitalism remains bright; in former days, its dark side was visible in the grinding poverty of workers, in the terrible working conditions of mine, mill and factory, in the growing surplus population and in the direct use of the iron fist of the State. Today those dark sides are no longer as visible to those of us who live in Europe or North America while the bright promise of capitalism stands in clear view for billions around the world who live in semi-feudal poverty. Yet that dark side remains. The 1848 Manifesto made it visible; any 1998 Manifesto we write for the 21st Century must map its dimensions and mark its victims. 5. The totalistic revolutions of bureaucratic state planning and/or anarchical labor disputes continue to subvert both Marxism and the Manifesto. The USSR did more to damage communism that all the rightwing think tanks combined. The US labor movement, so promising early on, settled for labor contracts which failed that larger mission...social and labor justice for all called forth by the Manifesto. 6. As our good friend, Lew, pointed out, the marxian concept of Aufgehoben requires one to build upon the many virtues of market economics rather than discard the entirity. Neither anarchy nor totalistic replacement of privatized capitalism serves aufhebung; serves transcendence, replacement and preservation. The Manifesto does so serve. 7. Both the Manifesto and affirmative postmodern social philosophy puts agency in the hands of human beings collectively...agency may have once been in the hands of god and/or nature but capitalism and the capitalism class--now global capitalism--has appropriated human agency to private purpose. The call of the Manifesto for a dialectical human agency; one which permits both individual creativity as long as it is oriented to the general good remains a basic guiding light in a world of confused and 8. As long as capitalism remains central to the production and distribution of essential goods and services; as long as people are excluded from the bounty produced by their brothers and sisters, their wives and daughters, their sons and fathers and their cousins everywhere, the Manifesto and the marxism it embodies will be relevant to the human struggle for social justice. TR Young, Editor FROM THE LEFT TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From conroyt@bu.edu Sun Mar 1 08:31:37 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:31:35 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Query on Religion & Disability Disabling persons, restricting free thought, stripping away agency, oppressing the masses? All this brought on by religion? The last time I checked, these things seemed to happening just as much in places where religion has been driven underground as in places where the masses are both religious and relatively ignorant (especially about their own latent agency). I certainly hope that you are both including the religion of statist ideologies backed up by authoritarian state regimes and not falling into what I suspect is the usual matrialist dismissal of what is conventionally taken to be religion. Tom On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > Nogod1 wrote: > > > > Are not 'religion' and 'disability' synonymous? Does not religion effectively > > 'disable' a person, restrict free-thought, strip away agency, oppress the > > masses, etc.? > > > > Just curious,,,, > > > > Piously yours, > > Vincent Bruzzese > > State University of New York at StonyBrook. > > Valid arguments, but I think it is much easier to overcome a physical > disability than a religion. I speak from experience on both counts. > > *ducking flames* > > Vincent Nix > -- > > > BlackMage Dragon > -==(UDIC)==- > Greet Team > > ---FOSTI--- > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > and fill out my survey :-) > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > -author unknown but admired > > Know the masculine. > Keep to the feminine. > Be like a stream in the world. > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > -------------- > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > -------------- > From tr@tryoung.com Sun Mar 1 08:57:48 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Yes, Virginia, there is a god....concept. Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:01:01 -0500 Recent postings on religion as a disability is, in my opinion, un-sociological...and maybe a bit defeating of hopes for a good and decent society. Let me explain. 1. While I agree that the god concept has absolutely no ontological grounding...there are no gods, angels, devils and such existing in some way in a universe above, different, superior or supernatural. Yet... 2. There is a god concept which has very real phenomenological reality. Both Durkheim and Marx, and maybe Freud are helpful to a sociological understanding of this most powerful social construct since... It is that god/god concept which provokes the greatest loyalties and the greatest tragedies of which we find in social life across history. 3. As a social/human construct, the god concept inspires and degrades; enobles and condemns; freezes and unfreezes existing social relationships. 4. Affirmative postmodern understandings of the god concept honor and ally with those believers who feel/think trust/hope/pray and work for a better society; for a New Jerusalem, as Wm. Blake put it. 5. It is of little use scoffing at the god concept; might as well scoff at those who believe in the NFL, the AMA or the ASA...all are, equally, human constructs with potential for great mischief. 6. A better tactic is, I think, to separate pre-modern concepts of god from religion per se... After all, the word religion is a word recent to the knowledge/analytic process...it comes from the Latin, ligio--I bind; re-ligio--I bind back/together... Any thing which promotes social solidarity is 'religion' in this technical and important sense...even the socgrad network where people argue fiercely over religion. 7. If we do retain the concept of religion without the crippling baggage (a nod to nogod1) we then might extricate the positive impulses in all religious traditions... Even the god concept itself can be reappropriate to the human hand and human mind which gave rise to it.... I have tried to do this in both scholarly work and in poetry. 8. Those who are interested in a postmodern sociology of religion might like to look at a few articles in the Red Feather Archives at: http://www.tryoung.com/archives/archives.htm There are three in which I take a bit of pride: #148 Part I: Postmodern Understandings of the God Concept: Social Justice and the Drama of the Holy by T. R. Young #157 Postmodern Religion and the Global World Order Postmodern Theology and Social Justice by T. R. Young #185 Work and Wisdom in the World by T. R. Young and Nancy Maxson ....and for those who prefer poetry to sociology when it comes to thelogy, you may want to go to the address below for the rest of the first part of a postmodern understanding of the god concept: http://www.tryoung.com/TRsPage/polpoetry/maybe.html The first part itself goes: I. Maybe That's What God is: Maybe God is One person helping another, A friend weeping at the anguish of a friend; lending a hand in time of need without thought of gain. Maybe that's what our God is; A person doing something she doesn't want to do; a person standing up when it's just as easy to sit and hold her peace. Maybe that's what our God is; a thought that gives comfort and helps one survive another night of grief, an embrace that brings surcease from sorrow. Maybe that's what our God is; a word that stops the hand from striking out in anger, a thought that gives one pause when one wants to hurt. Maybe that's what our God is; a bunch of people sitting around and enjoying each other from the bottom of a belly laugh, a bunch of people playing hard to win the game then going to someone's house for a beer. TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From br00760@binghamton.edu Sun Mar 1 09:36:43 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:36:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Johnston, Chris" To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Rantings In-Reply-To: <19980227034428.12207.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi and welcome to the list (socgrad). Actually, i'm not really a frequent participant myself, only a lurker. It's always nice to hear from soc grad students from outside the US. I am a Canadian studying in the US, and have been to Singapore, malaysia, Hong Kong, etc. so I was interested to read your news of changes at the NUS. I've seen job advertisements for NUS in the past; now I doubt I could ever apply there!! You can take heart (grim as it may be) in the knowledge that the changes you describe are happening in many other places. I think (hope) it will pass however. So long as the mainstream political/economic interests create and foster more and more "social problems" there will be a growing need for sociologists! -Chris Johnston (Sociology, SUNY-Binghamton) From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Mar 1 12:01:49 1998 by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GBGBa28606 From: Nogod1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:01:42 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Rantings In a message dated 98-03-01 11:37:27 EST, you write: > So long as the mainstream political/economic interests create and foster > more and more "social problems" there will be a growing need for > sociologists! > > -Chris Johnston > (Sociology, SUNY-Binghamton) Chris, As far as I can tell, that secret has yet to be uncovered. Unfortunately, the phrase "Damn, I wish we had a sociologist here!!!!!" is rarely uttered in the political/economic realm. Perhaps, if this field actually had some skills in public relations (rather ironic that we don't) things would be different. It seems we are destined to the same fate as philosophy, self-replication. In good spirits and high hopes for the future as always, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Mar 1 12:13:37 1998 by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GOWCa01472 From: Nogod1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:13:26 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Yes, Virginia, there is a god....concept. In a message dated 98-03-01 10:58:32 EST, you write: > 5. It is of little use scoffing at the god concept; might as > well scoff at those who believe in the NFL, the > AMA or the ASA...all are, equally, human constructs > with potential for great mischief. This statement is so unbelievable that I can hardly believe that the author is sincere. The last I checked the AMA's did not endorse "faith healing" thus killing thousands of children a year, the NFL is not causing any dispute in Bosnia, and the ASA's have absolutely no influence on the political workings of any country. To compare these organizations to the social institution of religion is not only a leap of logic but borderline delusional. And yes T.R. I do agree that a 'god-concept' exists, nor do I deny its effects on society. However, you make it sound as harmless as the Easter Bunny. T.R. we are social scientists and we should look at the world using that lense, however it does not mean that we should close our eyes while doing it. Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Mar 1 12:50:21 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 14:41:10 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Discursive Constructions of AIDS To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Although I haven't been able to keep up with the literature on this as much as I would like (discourse -- or critical epistemologies in general seem to be dirty words around here), one of the best works on AIDS discourse is Cindy Patton's Inventing AIDS (which was the followup to sex and germs). In particular, it deals exactly with issues like the social construction of African AIDS and the social construction of the other. Douglas Crimp's work is also good, albeit probably a bit more difficult to obtain. From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 13:03:33 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:02:32 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Query on Religion & Disability thomas conroy wrote: > > Disabling persons, restricting free thought, stripping away agency, > oppressing the masses? All this brought on by religion? The last time I > checked, these things seemed to happening just as much in places where > religion has been driven underground as in places where the masses are > both religious and relatively ignorant (especially about their own latent > agency). > > I certainly hope that you are both including the religion of statist > ideologies backed up by authoritarian state regimes and not falling into > what I suspect is the usual matrialist dismissal of what is conventionally > taken to be religion. I include (in thought) any group that purports to tell me what my rights and responsibilities are under the 'religious' heading, whether they claim a belief in (a) supreme being(s) or not. I consider myself a very spiritual person, but not religious by any means. People are surprised to find out that I am not 'religous' by their definition after we have come to know each other. I have never been in a situation wherin I was under the scrutiny of an autohortatian state, but I cannot find a great philosophical difference in the ones I have studied (i.e., read about) and the Southern Baptist doctrine that was my first exposure to 'religion' as commonly constrained in the layman's mind. > > Tom > On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > > Nogod1 wrote: > > > > > > Are not 'religion' and 'disability' synonymous? Does not religion effectively > > > 'disable' a person, restrict free-thought, strip away agency, oppress the > > > masses, etc.? > > > > > > Just curious,,,, > > > > > > Piously yours, > > > Vincent Bruzzese > > > State University of New York at StonyBrook. > > > > Valid arguments, but I think it is much easier to overcome a physical > > disability than a religion. I speak from experience on both counts. > > > > *ducking flames* > > > > Vincent Nix > > -- > > > > > > BlackMage Dragon > > -==(UDIC)==- > > Greet Team > > > > ---FOSTI--- > > > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > > and fill out my survey :-) > > > > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > > -author unknown but admired > > > > Know the masculine. > > Keep to the feminine. > > Be like a stream in the world. > > > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > > -------------- > > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > > -------------- > > -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Sun Mar 1 13:06:01 1998 01 Mar 1998 15:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:05:58 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: CIA on campus To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu, wsn@csf.colorado.edu, psn@csf.colorado.edu According to an article in the new Mother Jones magazine, the CIA has set up a phony academic conference at an American university (probably University of California, San Diego, although someone else will have to track that down). Here's the URL where you can read the details: http://www.mojones.com/mother_jones/JF98/dreyfuss.html The basic gist is that the CIA spooks, posing as US academics, invite foreign telcomm experts to give a paper, then they get them laid and try to recruit them to spy for the US. I find it disturbing that a public university would be used this way. I would invite someone in San Diego to read the article, see which university in town is holding telcomm conferences, and see if the organizers are actually teaching classes and advising students. If not, we know who the spooks are. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Mar 1 13:09:39 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 15:03:38 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: bwebb@odyssee.net (Brian Webb) To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:46:45 -0500 Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu I was disturbed - flabbergasted, might be closer to the truth - to read a report by Jeffrey Sellingo in the Chronicle of Higher Education's Daily News Report of February 25, 1998 revealing that "Kansas lawmakers have asked six state universities [University of Kansas, Emporia, Fort Hays, Kansas, Pittsburg and Wichita State] for a list of their courses that contain material related to homosexuality or bisexuality." The request asks for a list of courses offered "during the academic year which contain content directly related to the subject of homosexuality or bisexuality" Even more bizarre was a comment by David Shulenburger, provost of the University of Kansas who said that "TWO (emphasis mine) courses at the University of Kansas - one in journalism and the other in medicine - cover topics that include homosexuality or bisexuality." Can someone tell me what is going on in Kansas ... and does the University of Kansas, a very fine institution, I am sure, only have TWO courses that "cover topics that include homosexuality or bisexuality". I would have thought that almost EVERY Sociology course taught at a college or university these days would have at least some queer content. Or is this an April Fool's joke come early ... on this St David's Day 1998! Cheers from Montreal - Brian Webb bwebb@odyssee.net http://www.odyssee.net/~bwebb/ Montreal, Canada From dwhatley@yorku.ca Sun Mar 1 13:21:44 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:28:37 +0000 From: Deborah Whatley Sender: dwhatley@yorku.ca Reply-To: dwhatley@yorku.ca Subject: Re: Yes, Virginia, there is a god....concept. To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu In-Reply-To: <899f9e24.34f9b359@aol.com> While I have no argument with the basic content of Vincent's message (in isolation from TR's), I have to question its 'leap' from TR's #5. There are leaps of faith in religion and quantum leaps in physics, but Vincent's critique seems to be the leap in logic that fell in midair. I appreciate the passion of the answer but think it does not address that to which it responds. deborah york u, toronto dwhatley@yorku.ca On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:13:26 EST Nogod1@aol.com (Nogod1) wrote: > > In a message dated 98-03-01 10:58:32 EST, you write: > > > 5. It is of little use scoffing at the god concept; might as > > well scoff at those who believe in the NFL, the > > AMA or the ASA...all are, equally, human constructs > > with potential for great mischief. > > > This statement is so unbelievable that I can hardly believe that the author is > sincere. The last I checked the AMA's did not endorse "faith healing" thus > killing thousands of children a year, the NFL is not causing any dispute in > Bosnia, and the ASA's have absolutely no influence on the political workings > of any country. To compare these organizations to the social institution of > religion is not only a leap of logic but borderline delusional. > > And yes T.R. I do agree that a 'god-concept' exists, nor do I deny its effects > on society. However, you make it sound as harmless as the Easter Bunny. T.R. > we are social scientists and we should look at the world using that lense, > however it does not mean that we should close our eyes while doing it. > > Vincent Bruzzese > SUNY StonyBrook From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 13:27:52 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:26:50 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Yes, Virginia, there is a god....concept. T R Young wrote: > > Recent postings on religion as a disability is, in > my opinion, un-sociological... Can anything truly be un-sociological? Pray tell, how so? >and maybe a bit > defeating of hopes for a good and decent society. No argument here, individuals gain much from social organization, whether they be godly or not. However, there is also a price to pay, a limit on freedom (i.e., free-thinking) and in accepting the restraints that an organization puts on physical activities as well. To me, this is just as disabling (in my actual case, more so) than the leg impairment which prevents me from partaking in athletic events, and even walking without assistance. > > Let me explain. > > 1. While I agree that the god concept has absolutely > no ontological grounding...there are no gods, > angels, devils and such existing in some way > in a universe above, different, superior or > supernatural. Yet... > > 2. There is a god concept which has very real phenomenological > reality. Both Durkheim and Marx, and maybe Freud are > helpful to a sociological understanding of this most > powerful social construct since... > > It is that god/god concept which provokes > the greatest loyalties and the greatest tragedies > of which we find in social life across history. and presents greater controls. And in some cases a higher suicide rate among the members (suicide research by Drukheim.) > > 3. As a social/human construct, the god concept inspires and > degrades; enobles and condemns; freezes and unfreezes > existing social relationships. > > 4. Affirmative postmodern understandings of the god concept > honor and ally with those believers who feel/think > trust/hope/pray and work for a better society; for > a New Jerusalem, as Wm. Blake put it. > > 5. It is of little use scoffing at the god concept; might as > well scoff at those who believe in the NFL, the > AMA or the ASA...all are, equally, human constructs > with potential for great mischief. but that potential has yet to be reached except in the cases of religions. Most wars are traceable to a set of religious disagreements, that is: I am a member of a chosen people, therefore I have a moral right to dominate, even murder inferiors... The NFL might have absorbed or destroyed all competition, but not by as drastic a means as we have used to take land and various other resources from each other. > > 6. A better tactic is, I think, to separate pre-modern > concepts of god from religion per se... > > After all, the word religion is a word recent to the > knowledge/analytic process...it comes from the Latin, > ligio--I bind; re-ligio--I bind back/together... > > Any thing which promotes social solidarity is 'religion' > in this technical and important sense...even the socgrad > network where people argue fiercely over religion. > > 7. If we do retain the concept of religion without the > crippling baggage (a nod to nogod1) we then might extricate the > positive impulses in all religious traditions... > > Even the god concept itself can be reappropriate to > the human hand and human mind which gave rise to it.... > > I have tried to do this in both scholarly work and in > poetry. > > 8. Those who are interested in a postmodern sociology of religion > might like to look at a few articles in the Red Feather > Archives at: > > > > http://www.tryoung.com/archives/archives.htm > > There are three in which I take a bit of pride: > > #148 Part I: Postmodern Understandings of the God Concept: > Social Justice and the Drama of the Holy by T. R. Young > > #157 Postmodern Religion and the Global World Order > Postmodern Theology and Social Justice by T. R. Young > > #185 Work and Wisdom in the World > by T. R. Young and Nancy Maxson > > ...and for those who prefer poetry to sociology when it comes to thelogy, you > may want to go to the address below for the rest of the first part of a > postmodern > understanding of the god concept: > > http://www.tryoung.com/TRsPage/polpoetry/maybe.html > > The first part itself goes: > > I. Maybe That's What God is: > > Maybe God is > One person helping another, > A friend weeping at the anguish > of a friend; lending > a hand in time of need > without thought of gain. > > Maybe that's what our God is; > A person doing something > she doesn't want to do; > a person standing up > when it's just as easy > to sit and hold her peace. > > Maybe that's what our God is; > a thought that gives comfort > and helps one survive > another night of grief, > an embrace that brings > surcease from sorrow. > > Maybe that's what our God is; > a word that stops the hand > from striking out in anger, > a thought that gives one pause > when one wants to hurt. > > Maybe that's what our God is; > a bunch of people sitting around > and enjoying each other > from the bottom of a belly laugh, > a bunch of people playing hard > to win the game then > going to someone's house for a beer. > TR Young > The Red Feather Institute > 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., > 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 > Email: tr@tryoung.com Maybe god is being able to discuss openly issues such as these, without fear of physical, emotional, or other unpleasant reprisals. my point is basically 1)that we can be as good or as bad as we want to, without the need to praise/blame an unseen entity for our actions. Morals are necessary, but do not have to be 'god' based. and 2)Social organization produces control. I believe mental control to be more evasive (even damaging) than physical controls. Of course when combined (torture) the damage is IMHO worse. :-) Vincent Nix -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 13:31:21 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:30:12 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Yes, Virginia, there is a god....concept. Nogod1 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-03-01 10:58:32 EST, you write: > > > 5. It is of little use scoffing at the god concept; might as > > well scoff at those who believe in the NFL, the > > AMA or the ASA...all are, equally, human constructs > > with potential for great mischief. > > This statement is so unbelievable that I can hardly believe that the author is > sincere. The last I checked the AMA's did not endorse "faith healing" thus > killing thousands of children a year, the NFL is not causing any dispute in > Bosnia, and the ASA's have absolutely no influence on the political workings > of any country. To compare these organizations to the social institution of > religion is not only a leap of logic but borderline delusional. > > And yes T.R. I do agree that a 'god-concept' exists, nor do I deny its effects > on society. However, you make it sound as harmless as the Easter Bunny. T.R. > we are social scientists and we should look at the world using that lense, > however it does not mean that we should close our eyes while doing it. > > Vincent Bruzzese > SUNY StonyBrook *LOL* *round of applause* nice retort. I am still afraid to be this bold, as I have only been here a week. Gimme a little time... V. Nix -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From conroyt@bu.edu Sun Mar 1 13:37:00 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:36:55 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: BlackMage Dragon Subject: Re: Query on Religion & Disability In-Reply-To: <34F9BED8.381EEC57@dixie-net.com> Okay, I'll grant you your experience of your religious background as stifling, but surely we must distinguish between religion at its most stifling and theocracy, in which religion becomes the official doctrine, backed up by a monopoly of force. Your equating of the two is something I find problematic. And as far as agency goes, how is it, other than through a rather willful agency, that persons can possibly become lapsed in the faith systems of their childhoods? If religion were all that restrictive of free thought, wouldn't that be rather exceptional. It seems to me that, as TR Young suggested, we need to be more sociological and to put religion into its proper context, ie., the political, economic, social and cultural institutions, among which religion is a singular, though not insignificant, part. In and of itself, religion is something of a social technology and thus largely neutral; it depends on the uses to which it is put, and the contexts in which it is used, and only when we are clear about this can we fully evaluate its social effects. Finally, I think that it need be recognized that, in some senses, even the most reactionary religions - ie., fundamentalist forms of monotheisms - with all of their social and cultural prejudices and intolerances - can be in some ways revolutionary and, in the long run, progressive; own state of Massachusetts, founded by a group of very repressive puritans, bears this out. Massachusetts was also the community of believers who saw themselves as relative equals, was the birthplace of the American revolution, and an early leader in education; we remain one of the more liberal states in the U.S. While this is not necessarily all a consequence of the puritan foundations, and while puritanism may have lost much of its religious fervor some time after the last witches were burned, there is no doubt that the "commonwealth" (which is what Massachusetts officially is) notion took deep root. Perhaps we can predict that Iran will turn out to be one of the more enlightened and progressive nations once the Ayatollahs allow a more secular rule. Tom On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > thomas conroy wrote: > > > > Disabling persons, restricting free thought, stripping away agency, > > oppressing the masses? All this brought on by religion? The last time I > > checked, these things seemed to happening just as much in places where > > religion has been driven underground as in places where the masses are > > both religious and relatively ignorant (especially about their own latent > > agency). > > > > I certainly hope that you are both including the religion of statist > > ideologies backed up by authoritarian state regimes and not falling into > > what I suspect is the usual matrialist dismissal of what is conventionally > > taken to be religion. > > I include (in thought) any group that purports to tell me what my rights > and responsibilities are under the 'religious' heading, whether they > claim a belief in (a) supreme being(s) or not. I consider myself a very > spiritual person, but not religious by any means. People are surprised > to find out that I am not 'religous' by their definition after we have > come to know each other. > > I have never been in a situation wherin I was under the scrutiny of an > autohortatian state, but I cannot find a great philosophical difference > in the ones I have studied (i.e., read about) and the Southern Baptist > doctrine that was my first exposure to 'religion' as commonly > constrained in the layman's mind. > > > > Tom > > On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > > > > Nogod1 wrote: > > > > > > > > Are not 'religion' and 'disability' synonymous? Does not religion effectively > > > > 'disable' a person, restrict free-thought, strip away agency, oppress the > > > > masses, etc.? > > > > > > > > Just curious,,,, > > > > > > > > Piously yours, > > > > Vincent Bruzzese > > > > State University of New York at StonyBrook. > > > > > > Valid arguments, but I think it is much easier to overcome a physical > > > disability than a religion. I speak from experience on both counts. > > > > > > *ducking flames* > > > > > > Vincent Nix > > > -- > > > > > > > > > BlackMage Dragon > > > -==(UDIC)==- > > > Greet Team > > > > > > ---FOSTI--- > > > > > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > > > > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > > > and fill out my survey :-) > > > > > > > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > > > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > > > -author unknown but admired > > > > > > Know the masculine. > > > Keep to the feminine. > > > Be like a stream in the world. > > > > > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > > > -------------- > > > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > > > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > > > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > > > -------------- > > > > > -- > > > BlackMage Dragon > -==(UDIC)==- > Greet Team > > ---FOSTI--- > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > and fill out my survey :-) > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > -author unknown but admired > > Know the masculine. > Keep to the feminine. > Be like a stream in the world. > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > -------------- > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > -------------- > From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 14:07:00 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:05:51 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: thomas conroy Subject: Re: Query on Religion & Disability thomas conroy wrote: > > Okay, I'll grant you your experience of your religious background as > stifling, but surely we must distinguish between religion at its most > stifling and theocracy, in which religion becomes the official doctrine, > backed up by a monopoly of force. Your equating of the two is something I > find problematic. As my first post stated, "I think." This does not imply that I am always correct. However I find this 'equating of the two' as you percieve my post doing no more troublesome than your later equating religion with the NFL. If we do not make troublesome equations, nothing else will be gained (IMHO.) > > And as far as agency goes, how is it, other than through a rather willful > agency, that persons can possibly become lapsed in the faith systems of > their childhoods? If religion were all that restrictive of free thought, > wouldn't that be rather exceptional. I am of the opinion that you have experienced how repressive of free thinking that one's belief system can become. "Willful" is never implied, by me. I had no choice in the way that a belief system was presented to me at a rather young age. Everyone I knew believed in the same ideals; you may say I 'willfully' went along, but I disagree. I 'willfully' left, and suffered the consequences of family and cohort (and God's if they are correct) wrath. If I misunderstood your meaning, excuse me. Had it not been for an unfortunate turn of events, I would never have began 'free thinking' at all. Yes, when one is a member, it seems that the actions are (and in fact probably are) willful. BUT, I presuppose that there was never a 'willful' decision to trod that path. If a crossroads appeared, the masses were blindfolded. > > It seems to me that, as TR Young suggested, we need to be more > sociological and to put religion into its proper context, ie., the > political, economic, social and cultural institutions, among which > religion is a singular, though not insignificant, part. In and of itself, > religion is something of a social technology and thus largely neutral; it Whoa! Neutral?! Then how come candidates put their church membership on the list of qualifications in their campaign materials? What singular force (again, IMHO) has led to the (near) collapse of the United State's Republican political party? Religion. > depends on the uses to which it is put, and the contexts in which it is > used, and only when we are clear about this can we fully evaluate its > social effects. > > Finally, I think that it need be recognized that, in some senses, > even the most reactionary religions - ie., fundamentalist forms of > monotheisms - with all of their social and cultural prejudices and > intolerances - can be in some ways revolutionary and, in the long run, > progressive; own state of Massachusetts, founded by a group of very > repressive puritans, bears this out. Massachusetts was also the community They may turn out to be revolutionary, but for the most part (at least in the U.S. South) organized religions serve the purpose of segregation in a world that no longer tolerates segregationist policies. There is so much that poor blacks, hispanics, and whites have in common, but it will never surface as long as one common thread is so separatist: religion. Oh, I will get off on a tangent here, sorry.... > of believers who saw themselves as relative equals, was the birthplace of > the American revolution, and an early leader in education; we remain one > of the more liberal states in the U.S. While this is not necessarily all a > consequence of the puritan foundations, and while puritanism may have lost > much of its religious fervor some time after the last witches were burned, > there is no doubt that the "commonwealth" (which is what Massachusetts > officially is) notion took deep root. > > Perhaps we can predict that Iran will turn out to be one of the more > enlightened and progressive nations once the Ayatollahs allow a more > secular rule. > > Tom > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > > thomas conroy wrote: > > > > > > Disabling persons, restricting free thought, stripping away agency, > > > oppressing the masses? All this brought on by religion? The last time I > > > checked, these things seemed to happening just as much in places where > > > religion has been driven underground as in places where the masses are > > > both religious and relatively ignorant (especially about their own latent > > > agency). > > > > > > I certainly hope that you are both including the religion of statist > > > ideologies backed up by authoritarian state regimes and not falling into > > > what I suspect is the usual matrialist dismissal of what is conventionally > > > taken to be religion. > > > > I include (in thought) any group that purports to tell me what my rights > > and responsibilities are under the 'religious' heading, whether they > > claim a belief in (a) supreme being(s) or not. I consider myself a very > > spiritual person, but not religious by any means. People are surprised > > to find out that I am not 'religous' by their definition after we have > > come to know each other. > > > > I have never been in a situation wherin I was under the scrutiny of an > > autohortatian state, but I cannot find a great philosophical difference > > in the ones I have studied (i.e., read about) and the Southern Baptist > > doctrine that was my first exposure to 'religion' as commonly > > constrained in the layman's mind. > > > > > > Tom > > > On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > > > > > > Nogod1 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Are not 'religion' and 'disability' synonymous? Does not religion effectively > > > > > 'disable' a person, restrict free-thought, strip away agency, oppress the > > > > > masses, etc.? > > > > > > > > > > Just curious,,,, > > > > > > > > > > Piously yours, > > > > > Vincent Bruzzese > > > > > State University of New York at StonyBrook. > > > > > > > > Valid arguments, but I think it is much easier to overcome a physical > > > > disability than a religion. I speak from experience on both counts. > > > > > > > > *ducking flames* > > > > > > > > Vincent Nix > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > BlackMage Dragon > > > > -==(UDIC)==- > > > > Greet Team > > > > > > > > ---FOSTI--- > > > > > > > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > > > > > > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > > > > and fill out my survey :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > > > > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > > > > -author unknown but admired > > > > > > > > Know the masculine. > > > > Keep to the feminine. > > > > Be like a stream in the world. > > > > > > > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > > > > -------------- > > > > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > > > > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > > > > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > > > > -------------- > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > BlackMage Dragon > > -==(UDIC)==- > > Greet Team > > > > ---FOSTI--- > > > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > > and fill out my survey :-) > > > > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > > -author unknown but admired > > > > Know the masculine. > > Keep to the feminine. > > Be like a stream in the world. > > > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > > -------------- > > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > > -------------- > > -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From zeyno@asu.edu Sun Mar 1 14:17:26 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:17:22 -0700 (MST) From: OZGEN Subject: Re: seeking research help In-reply-to: To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu hi buri, I suggest you look at "Nationalism and Sexualities" edited by Andrew Parker, Mary Russo, Doris Sommer and Patricia Yaeger. One of the articles in this book is titled "From Nation to Family: Containing african aids" by Cindy Patton. This person has a book from Routledge (Inventing AIDS, published in 1990). Another article in this book is titled Plauge in Germany, 1939/1989: Cultural images of Race, space and disease by Sander Gilman. Also see Paula A. Treichler's "AIDS and HIV infection in the third world: A dirst world chronicle" in Remaking History by Barbara Kruger & Phil Mariani (eds., 1989). Again by Treichler "AIDS, Africa and cultural theory" in Transition, 51 (1991) Hope these will help. Good luck... zeynep Zeynep Ozgen Department of Sociology Arizona State University zeyno@asu.edu From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 14:21:52 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:20:46 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Query on Religion & Disability BIG typo... BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > thomas conroy wrote: > > > > Okay, I'll grant you your experience of your religious background as > > stifling, but surely we must distinguish between religion at its most > > stifling and theocracy, in which religion becomes the official doctrine, > > backed up by a monopoly of force. Your equating of the two is something I > > find problematic. > > As my first post stated, "I think." This does not imply that I am > always correct. However I find this 'equating of the two' as you > percieve my post doing no more troublesome than your later equating > religion with the NFL. If we do not make troublesome equations, nothing > else will be gained (IMHO.) > > > > And as far as agency goes, how is it, other than through a rather willful > > agency, that persons can possibly become lapsed in the faith systems of > > their childhoods? If religion were all that restrictive of free thought, > > wouldn't that be rather exceptional. > HERE: should have read: "have not experienced" > I am of the opinion that you have experienced how repressive of free > thinking that one's belief system can become. "Willful" is never > implied, by me. I had no choice in the way that a belief system was > presented to me at a rather young age. Everyone I knew believed in the > same ideals; you may say I 'willfully' went along, but I disagree. I > 'willfully' left, and suffered the consequences of family and cohort > (and God's if they are correct) wrath. If I misunderstood your meaning, > excuse me. Had it not been for an unfortunate turn of events, I would > never have began 'free thinking' at all. Yes, when one is a member, it > seems that the actions are (and in fact probably are) willful. BUT, I > presuppose that there was never a 'willful' decision to trod that path. > If a crossroads appeared, the masses were blindfolded. > > > > > It seems to me that, as TR Young suggested, we need to be more > > sociological and to put religion into its proper context, ie., the > > political, economic, social and cultural institutions, among which > > religion is a singular, though not insignificant, part. In and of itself, > > religion is something of a social technology and thus largely neutral; it > > Whoa! Neutral?! Then how come candidates put their church membership > on the list of qualifications in their campaign materials? What > singular force (again, IMHO) has led to the (near) collapse of the > United State's Republican political party? Religion. > > > depends on the uses to which it is put, and the contexts in which it is > > used, and only when we are clear about this can we fully evaluate its > > social effects. > > > > Finally, I think that it need be recognized that, in some senses, > > even the most reactionary religions - ie., fundamentalist forms of > > monotheisms - with all of their social and cultural prejudices and > > intolerances - can be in some ways revolutionary and, in the long run, > > progressive; own state of Massachusetts, founded by a group of very > > repressive puritans, bears this out. Massachusetts was also the community > > They may turn out to be revolutionary, but for the most part (at least > in the U.S. South) organized religions serve the purpose of segregation > in a world that no longer tolerates segregationist policies. There is > so much that poor blacks, hispanics, and whites have in common, but it > will never surface as long as one common thread is so separatist: > religion. Oh, I will get off on a tangent here, sorry.... > > of believers who saw themselves as relative equals, was the birthplace of > > the American revolution, and an early leader in education; we remain one > > of the more liberal states in the U.S. While this is not necessarily all a > > consequence of the puritan foundations, and while puritanism may have lost > > much of its religious fervor some time after the last witches were burned, > > there is no doubt that the "commonwealth" (which is what Massachusetts > > officially is) notion took deep root. > > > > Perhaps we can predict that Iran will turn out to be one of the more > > enlightened and progressive nations once the Ayatollahs allow a more > > secular rule. > > > > Tom > > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > > > > thomas conroy wrote: > > > > > > > > Disabling persons, restricting free thought, stripping away agency, > > > > oppressing the masses? All this brought on by religion? The last time I > > > > checked, these things seemed to happening just as much in places where > > > > religion has been driven underground as in places where the masses are > > > > both religious and relatively ignorant (especially about their own latent > > > > agency). > > > > > > > > I certainly hope that you are both including the religion of statist > > > > ideologies backed up by authoritarian state regimes and not falling into > > > > what I suspect is the usual matrialist dismissal of what is conventionally > > > > taken to be religion. > > > > > > I include (in thought) any group that purports to tell me what my rights > > > and responsibilities are under the 'religious' heading, whether they > > > claim a belief in (a) supreme being(s) or not. I consider myself a very > > > spiritual person, but not religious by any means. People are surprised > > > to find out that I am not 'religous' by their definition after we have > > > come to know each other. > > > > > > I have never been in a situation wherin I was under the scrutiny of an > > > autohortatian state, but I cannot find a great philosophical difference > > > in the ones I have studied (i.e., read about) and the Southern Baptist > > > doctrine that was my first exposure to 'religion' as commonly > > > constrained in the layman's mind. > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nogod1 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Are not 'religion' and 'disability' synonymous? Does not religion effectively > > > > > > 'disable' a person, restrict free-thought, strip away agency, oppress the > > > > > > masses, etc.? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just curious,,,, > > > > > > > > > > > > Piously yours, > > > > > > Vincent Bruzzese > > > > > > State University of New York at StonyBrook. > > > > > > > > > > Valid arguments, but I think it is much easier to overcome a physical > > > > > disability than a religion. I speak from experience on both counts. > > > > > > > > > > *ducking flames* > > > > > > > > > > Vincent Nix > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BlackMage Dragon > > > > > -==(UDIC)==- > > > > > Greet Team > > > > > > > > > > ---FOSTI--- > > > > > > > > > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > > > > > > > > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > > > > > and fill out my survey :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > > > > > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > > > > > -author unknown but admired > > > > > > > > > > Know the masculine. > > > > > Keep to the feminine. > > > > > Be like a stream in the world. > > > > > > > > > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > > > > > -------------- > > > > > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > > > > > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > > > > > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > > > > > -------------- > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > BlackMage Dragon > > > -==(UDIC)==- > > > Greet Team > > > > > > ---FOSTI--- > > > > > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > > > > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > > > and fill out my survey :-) > > > > > > > > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > > > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > > > -author unknown but admired > > > > > > Know the masculine. > > > Keep to the feminine. > > > Be like a stream in the world. > > > > > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > > > -------------- > > > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > > > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > > > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > > > -------------- > > > > > -- > > BlackMage Dragon > -==(UDIC)==- > Greet Team > > ---FOSTI--- > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > and fill out my survey :-) > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > -author unknown but admired > > Know the masculine. > Keep to the feminine. > Be like a stream in the world. > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > -------------- > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M > u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ > wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > -------------- -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Mar 1 14:42:13 1998 by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GDPUa02917 From: Nogod1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:42:06 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Nice Discussion To all, As usual, I see that the topic of religion causes very little stir in the academic community. I obviously expected disagreement in this area. The admonishment to view religion sociologically is slightly confusing. I have seen no evidence that is has not been viewed in this manner (excepting of course the comment which compares religion to the NFL or the AMA, which I write off as a momentary lapse of reason). We should always examine religion both in the political and cultural context in which is resides and affects. However, this trend of only viewing religion in a positive light only allows to view part of a much larger picture. We have the media and popular culture to spoon feed us all the splendor that is religion......let us not fall into that trap here. And for all you post-modernist out there who are considering a response to this, please read what you write a few times before you hit send.....I think you will be amazed by what you see....I know I always am when I read it. Vacating this obtuse space in an attempt to create a tangible discourse, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From dcoon@ksu.edu Sun Mar 1 14:46:59 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:46:51 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon Reply-To: Dave Alan Coon To: Sociology Graduate Students- International Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <980301.150347.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Alan Davidson wrote: > > I was disturbed - flabbergasted, might be closer to the truth - to > read a report by Jeffrey Sellingo in the Chronicle of Higher > Education's Daily News Report of February 25, 1998 revealing that > "Kansas lawmakers have asked six state universities [University of > Kansas, Emporia, Fort Hays, Kansas, Pittsburg and Wichita State] for a > list of their courses that contain material related to homosexuality > or bisexuality." The request asks for a list of courses offered > "during the academic year which contain content directly related to > the subject of homosexuality or bisexuality" Even more bizarre was a > comment by David Shulenburger, provost of the University of Kansas who > said that "TWO (emphasis mine) courses at the University of Kansas - > one in journalism and the other in medicine - cover topics that > include homosexuality or bisexuality." > > Can someone tell me what is going on in Kansas ... and does the > University of Kansas, a very fine institution, I am sure, only have > TWO courses that "cover topics that include homosexuality or > bisexuality". I would have thought that almost EVERY Sociology course > taught at a college or university these days would have at least some > queer content. Or is this an April Fool's joke come early ... on > this St David's Day 1998! > Basically, KU only had TWO courses that explicitly mentioned the terms Homosexuality or Bisexuality in the course title. No, this is not an April fools joke. A legislative staff researcher did request the information, but apparently the Universites are not legally bound to supply any such information to the Leigslature. There is a website specifically about the whole situation at http://www.turnleft.com/witchhunt also you can search for info on the situation at http://www.themercury.com (the manhattan, KS newspaper) or at the K-State Collegian newspaper http://www.collegian.ksu.edu _________________________________________ | Dave A. Coon | |MA Student & Graduate Teaching Assistant | |Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology & Soc Wk| | Kansas State University | | e-mail: dcoon@ksu.edu | | Office: 253 Waters Hall, KSU | | Office Phone: (785)532-4972 | / )|Office Hrs: Tu/Th 10:45-11:20, W 10:30-12|( \ / / | WEB: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon | \ \ ( ( | TA for SOCIO 211G 12:30-1:45 TU/TH | ) ) (((\ \>|_/->_________________________________<-\_| Subject: Kansas update) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Mar 98 10:06:31 CST From: HOUTS@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu To: teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Brian Webb's query re. higher educ in Kansas That's life in Kansas! Here at Wichita State, 5 courses were named as containing such offensive content--in depts. such as social work, sociology, women's studies. I don't have a clue how the courses were identified or by whom. I feel left out since sexuality always comes up in my courses, planned or not! Should I notify the "sex police" at the Legislature (that is meant in jest)? Sandra Houts From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Mar 1 18:14:31 1998 by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GFFDa16811 From: Nogod1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:13:59 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Kansas update) To all, I don't mean to beat a long dead horse on this one, but I would be curious to know exactly who is pushing for this witch hunt? And if at the end of your search you find a church, do not be surprised. Under the impression that everything can be blamed on either the Christian Right or El Nino, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook..... From watterwo@sobek.Colorado.EDU Sun Mar 1 18:22:37 1998 by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id SAA05031; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:22:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:22:31 -0700 (MST) From: Jay Watterworth To: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: CIA on campus Thanks for this information. You are right, it is disturbing. But, what's new? Ever wonder who monitors some of the lists we belong to? Jay Watterworth On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Thomas F Brown wrote: > > According to an article in the new Mother Jones magazine, the > CIA has set up a phony academic conference at an American > university (probably University of California, San Diego, > although someone else will have to track that down). > Here's the URL where you can read the details: > > http://www.mojones.com/mother_jones/JF98/dreyfuss.html > > The basic gist is that the CIA spooks, posing as US academics, invite foreign > telcomm experts to give a paper, then they get them laid and try to recruit > them to spy for the US. I find it disturbing that a public university would > be used this way. > > I would invite someone in San Diego to read the article, see which > university in town is holding telcomm conferences, and see if the > organizers are actually teaching classes and advising students. > If not, we know who the spooks are. > > > From dcoon@ksu.edu Sun Mar 1 19:09:10 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:09:00 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Kansas update) In-Reply-To: <1986777.34fa07d9@aol.com> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Nogod1 wrote: > To all, > > I don't mean to beat a long dead horse on this one, but I would be curious to > know exactly who is pushing for this witch hunt? And if at the end of your > search you find a church, do not be surprised. > An article in the K-State collegian issue tried to disclose exactly this--who is pushing for the witch hunt. The paper quoted a legislative staffer/researcher but did not give names. The paper did not name anyone and stopped just short of suggesting that naming someone would be illegal. There has been widespread speculation that Topeka Minister Fred Phelps (who was recently featured on a CNN segment about hate groups on the web for his "God Hates Fags" website may be behind the whole thing. _________________________________________ | Dave A. Coon | |MA Student & Graduate Teaching Assistant | |Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology & Soc Wk| | Kansas State University | | e-mail: dcoon@ksu.edu | | Office: 253 Waters Hall, KSU | | Office Phone: (785)532-4972 | / )|Office Hrs: Tu/Th 10:45-11:20, W 10:30-12|( \ / / | WEB: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon | \ \ ( ( | TA for SOCIO 211G 12:30-1:45 TU/TH | ) ) (((\ \>|_/->_________________________________<-\_| Subject: correlation vs. causation? To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Just b/c religious folks tend to feel more strongly about certain social issues than "secular" folks doesn't mean that things like what is happening in Kansas are "caused" by the actions of religious individuals. From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Mar 1 19:58:17 1998 by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GMFLa28705 From: Nogod1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:57:50 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? In a message dated 98-03-01 21:32:08 EST, you write: > Just b/c religious folks tend to feel more strongly about certain social > issues than "secular" folks doesn't mean that things like what is happening > in Kansas are "caused" by the actions of religious individuals. Alan, You make two different claims here, both of which are incorrect. The first claim is that people with a high level of religiosity tend to feel 'more strongly' about social issues. This is of course not the case. However, it is the case that high levels of religiosity have been shown to influence the predisposition of individuals on a great number of social issues. For example, my own research shows that as a person increases in religiosity (as defined by belief in god, attendence at rituals, frequency of prayer, etc) they tend to hold views that we would define as 'racist' (belief in laws forbidding interracial marriage, segregating schools, etc..). Now if the case in Kansas was a push to increase the amount of money given to education, I would not conclude that 'religion' may be the structural force behind that. However, seeing as how there appears to be a witch hunt against anything that is not preaching hetrosexuality, I poisted that religion may be the cause. This was not due to any predisposition on the part of the religious to hold 'strong feelings' on anything, simply their inclination to lead such crusades in the past. Once again, I admonish you all, not to defend religion blindly......it is sad that some of you find religion so endearing that you can not even consider the possibility that a religious source could be behind the witch hunts in Kansas. Willing to wager anything that you will find a person of the cloth behind the crusade in Kansas, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From Nogod1@aol.com Sun Mar 1 20:01:01 1998 by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GXFKa09366 From: Nogod1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:00:45 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: CIA on campus In a message dated 98-03-01 20:23:02 EST, you write: > Thanks for this information. You are right, it is disturbing. But, > what's new? Ever wonder who monitors some of the lists we belong to? > Jay Watterworth Jay, I am hoping the chair of my illustrious dept. views these regularly.....Diane are you out there???? Simply searching for trouble, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Mar 1 20:47:02 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 22:43:33 EST From: danielle Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <980301.212531.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> I agree with Alan that religious folk can't be proclaimed guilty of "everything", but this is homosexuality, Alan, and there are very few secular folk who care about it as much as religious folk do. Persecution of homosexuals is very often done in the name of the Lord, or whatever entity one believes in. Danielle at UConn From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 22:22:35 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:21:30 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Kansas update) Nogod1 wrote: > > To all, > > I don't mean to beat a long dead horse on this one, but I would be curious to > know exactly who is pushing for this witch hunt? And if at the end of your > search you find a church, do not be surprised. > oh no! that is not possible! we just learned how religion is neutral on matters such as this on this very newsgroup! ;-) > Under the impression that everything can be blamed on either the Christian > Right or El Nino, > Vincent Bruzzese > SUNY StonyBrook..... -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 22:25:05 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:23:57 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? Alan Davidson wrote: > > Just b/c religious folks tend to feel more strongly about certain social > issues than would you be so kind as to back this claim up with data kind sir? I feel VERY strongly about certain social issues... >"secular" folks doesn't mean that things like what is happening > in Kansas are "caused" by the actions of religious individuals. -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sun Mar 1 22:45:54 1998 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 23:44:49 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? Nogod1 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-03-01 21:32:08 EST, you write: > > > Just b/c religious folks tend to feel more strongly about certain social > > issues than "secular" folks doesn't mean that things like what is happening > > in Kansas are "caused" by the actions of religious individuals. > > Alan, > > You make two different claims here, both of which are incorrect. The first > claim is that people with a high level of religiosity tend to feel 'more > strongly' about social issues. This is of course not the case. However, it > is the case that high levels of religiosity have been shown to influence the > predisposition of individuals on a great number of social issues. For > example, my own research shows that as a person increases in religiosity (as > defined by belief in god, attendence at rituals, frequency of prayer, etc) > they tend to hold views that we would define as 'racist' (belief in laws > forbidding interracial marriage, segregating schools, etc..). I hypothesized as much, but it was not borne out by my research. I would love to see your data and how you defined religiosity as opposed to how I did. I got an F of 0.927; 8df and p= .500; n=131. This was one of my weakest independent variables(social distance being the dependent variable) and of course I thought it would be one of the strongest. I still have not accounted for that result. I had some 'gut feelings' but nothing solid to research and disprove :-) sorry to digress, but that is an intensely interesting area to me... > Now if the case > in Kansas was a push to increase the amount of money given to education, I > would not conclude that 'religion' may be the structural force behind that. > However, seeing as how there appears to be a witch hunt against anything that > is not preaching hetrosexuality, I poisted that religion may be the cause. > This was not due to any predisposition on the part of the religious to hold > 'strong feelings' on anything, simply their inclination to lead such crusades > in the past. > Once again, I admonish you all, not to defend religion blindly......it is sad > that some of you find religion so endearing that you can not even consider the > possibility that a religious source could be behind the witch hunts in Kansas. > > Willing to wager anything that you will find a person of the cloth behind the > crusade in Kansas, > Vincent Bruzzese > SUNY StonyBrook fainter> -- BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From sbanerje@students.uiuc.edu Sun Mar 1 23:25:58 1998 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:25:55 -0600 (CST) From: sarmistha banerjee To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: seekign research help Hi Zeynep, I am actually already reading the articles in "Nationalisms and Sexualities" but thank you for the reference. I also want to thank everyone else who's been sending me suggestions. Your help is much appreciated. :) Buri ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Buri Banerjee Office phone: (217) 337-1950 Dept. of Sociology e-mail: sbanerje@students.uiuc.edu 326 Lincoln Hall 702 S. Wright Street University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Urbana, IL 61801 ============================================================================== From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Mon Mar 2 01:16:41 1998 From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: Everyday is an anniversary of the Manifesto Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:21:41 -0800 Dear TR, what is the pentateuch? Don Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I read my email but not every day.... ---------- > From: T R Young > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Everyday is an anniversary of the Manifesto > Date: Sunday, March 01, 1998 5:34 AM > > Criticisms and reconventions of the Communist Manifesto continue to > be helpful to the human project of converting a magnificent system > of production into a good and decent system of distribution... > > The Manifesto of 1848, whatever its historical, theoretical and > political faults in the 19th century; whatever its failure to > capture the changes of the 20th century, continues to transcend > those criticisms and remain central to the human struggle for social > justice on a number of counts: > > 1. Along with the US Constitution and the Pentateuch, it continues > to inspire those billions on earth who read about, think about and desire > a better society than the racist, sexist, class-ridden society now found > around most of the world. > > 2. It was the first widely read document to put human conflict and > human promise in the sweep and run of macro-economic and political > forces, taking those problems and hopes out of the realm of gods, kings > and popes...and relocating problems on the back of oppressors while > investing hopes in the hands of the oppressed. > > 3. It continues to be important to a critique of capitalism in that, while > the details may be wrong or dated, still the message remains: wealth is > created collectively; it must be put to collective use. > > 4. The future of capitalism remains bright; in former days, its dark side > was visible in the grinding poverty of workers, in the terrible working > conditions of mine, mill and factory, in the growing surplus population > and in the direct use of the iron fist of the State. > > Today those dark sides are no longer as visible to those of us who live > in Europe or North America while the bright promise of capitalism stands > in clear view for billions around the world who live in semi-feudal poverty. > > Yet that dark side remains. The 1848 Manifesto made it visible; any 1998 > Manifesto we write for the 21st Century must map its dimensions and mark > its victims. > > 5. The totalistic revolutions of bureaucratic state planning and/or > anarchical labor disputes continue to subvert both Marxism and the Manifesto. > The USSR did more to damage communism that all the rightwing think tanks > combined. The US labor movement, so promising early on, settled for labor > contracts which failed that larger mission...social and labor justice for all > called forth by the Manifesto. > > 6. As our good friend, Lew, pointed out, the marxian concept of Aufgehoben > requires > one to build upon the many virtues of market economics rather than discard the > entirity. Neither anarchy nor totalistic replacement of privatized capitalism > serves aufhebung; serves transcendence, replacement and preservation. The > Manifesto > does so serve. > > 7. Both the Manifesto and affirmative postmodern social philosophy puts agency > in the hands of human beings collectively...agency may have once been in the > hands of god and/or nature but capitalism and the capitalism class--now global > capitalism--has appropriated human agency to private purpose. The call of the > Manifesto for a dialectical human agency; one which permits both individual > creativity as long as it is oriented to the general good remains a basic guiding > light in a world of confused and > > 8. As long as capitalism remains central to the production and distribution > of essential goods and services; as long as people are excluded from the > bounty produced by their brothers and sisters, their wives and daughters, > their sons and fathers and their cousins everywhere, the Manifesto and > the marxism it embodies will be relevant to the human struggle for social > justice. > > TR Young, Editor > FROM THE LEFT > TR Young > The Red Feather Institute > 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., > 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 > Email: tr@tryoung.com > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Mar 2 05:10:33 1998 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:04 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Yes, Virginia, there is a god....concept. In-Reply-To: <34F9C48A.5BCD27C8@dixie-net.com> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, BlackMage Dragon wrote: > T R Young wrote: > > > > Recent postings on religion as a disability is, in > > my opinion, un-sociological... > > Can anything truly be un-sociological? Pray tell, how so? > By focusing on individualistic explanations to social phenomena? Just a thought. Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From brianeh@nbnet.nb.ca Mon Mar 2 05:45:54 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:44:41 -0400 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Brian Edward Hovsepian Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? In-Reply-To: <8ba90304.34fa2030@aol.com> At some point in time you wrote: >Once again, I admonish you all, not to defend religion blindly......it is sad >that some of you find religion so endearing that you can not even consider the >possibility that a religious source could be behind the witch hunts in Kansas. > >Willing to wager anything that you will find a person of the cloth behind the >crusade in Kansas, >Vincent Bruzzese >SUNY StonyBrook fainter> I'm not sure this is a case of finding religion endearing. A difference between the construct of spirituality as opposed to the institution of religion may be where this argument is going awry. May not the idea postulated by Marx and held sancrosanct by more than a few people constitute religion, particularly when not critically analysed? Marx did feel that once the workers ushered in a new society based on social justice there would no longer be a need for religion, as religion served as a refuge for the miserable and the poor. I feel this is a short-sighted notion in and of itself. We are not inherently economic creatures. Granted, we have been raised, for centuries, to believe in the power of economics, but just because we have, does not mean that we are not above and about much more than economics. Yes...much wrong has been done in the name of religion, but what have been the forces "behind" the evil done? I think you may be surprised... Therefore, my assertion that spirituality and religion are two very different things. And, depending on where you are in the world, "blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth," from the Sermon on the Mount, may be a hell of a lot more effective than "workers of the world unite." Brian Hovsepian Dept. of Educational Foundations University of New Brunswick From tr@tryoung.com Mon Mar 2 06:17:52 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Fiddler on the Roof Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:21:08 -0500 Those of us who fiddle around on the rooftops of sociological theory sometimes play a false note; sometimes miss a whole passage. I am, alas, no Isaac Stern...as our good colleague Nogod1, points out, I missed a whole passage. I did not balance my post on religion...let me do that now. In its darker, more sinister sides, organized religion is, all too often, hostile to the human project: The Crusades killed tens of thousands in the effort to impose a god concept on people in the Holy Land The Inquisition pilloried thousands in its efforts to purge other beliefs. Christians burnt hundreds of women at stake as witches as they tried to heal those they loved. Holy crusades and Ji-hads continue to plague the land and destroy near neighbors and close kin. Deuternonomy is not good reading for those of us who do not accept the god of the old testament is the one and only god concept. Churches banned women, minorities and now, give sanctuary to white citizen armies and mindless militias. All pre-modern religions strip humans beings of human agency and locate it in mythical beings. Almost all religions define creativity and innovation as work of the Devil when it involves new ways of being and doing...when it opposes patriarchy, racism and hierarchy. Many pagan religions and much of Buddhism, to their credit, are more accomodating. There, having accepted the critique of our good colleague, I should now like to turn to a small point in his own post. The AMA is not an innocent creation of dedicated physicians. It supports a theory of medicine which reduce illness and despair to microbes and molecules. It supports a practice of medicine which withholds treatment from the widow, the orphan and the stranger at the gate. It spends millions on public policy which guarantees its members monopoly over the definitions and sources of disease; of the writing and using of simple, effective medications. Its members flock to the rich cities and counties leaving rural folk bereft of health care. There are more doctors in Los Angeles/Beverly Hills than in all of South Dakota. Its stands on abortion, suicide and pain are oriented more to conservative politics than to welfare of the patient. Having said all that, I now want to say that there are hundreds of thousands of doctors whom I greatly respect and greatly trust...I took my Ph.D. in the sociology of medicine and have worked in both Hurley Hospital in Flint and U/Mich hospital in Ann Arbor...of the thousands I have known, a mere handful earn my earnest contempt. And there, but, for the grace of a sociology professor in college, would I have also gone. I was pre-med when I took courses from Smitty at EMichU... Finally, I want to stand by the 5th point of the earlier post... The god concept, the Catholic Church, Philadelphia, the NFL, the AMA, the ASA and the Socgrad Network are, each and all, human constructs. The facticity of each and all depends upon the behavior of some set of human beings; some set of human symbols; some set of shared understandings and some set of shared interests as well as shared purposes. The truth value of all reality claims about gods and religions; about nations and religions; about families and about love is to be found in the organized behavior of interacting people...none of these social creations have existence outside, prior to, or independently from the symbolic interaction of intending persons. The facticity of most American religions and most American god-concepts is very small indeed...an hour here, a day there, a prayer when one wants something...such a practice of religion is of little consequent. Some ten to 20 millions, mostly Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Baptists take their religion very seriously and for weal and for woe, live it fully. Most of us could do much better than do we when it comes to the gift of grace, to compassion, to fellowship and to self-criticism so central to most religious tradition. And do it we should whatever our thoughts of god and god-talk. go in peace with your god, TR TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Mon Mar 2 06:44:36 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Everyday is an anniversary of the Manifesto Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:50 -0500 The first five books of the bible which are also the Koran and Torah... all three religions claim Moses, Deuteronomy and the rest. cheers, TR At 11:21 PM 3/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Dear TR, what is the pentateuch? Don > >Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D >Department of Sociology >University of Southern California >Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 > >wrk. 213-740-3544 >hm. 213-748-7378 >fax 213-740-3535 > >dnaylor@usc.edu > >I read my email but not every day.... > >---------- >> From: T R Young >> To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > >> Subject: Everyday is an anniversary of the Manifesto >> Date: Sunday, March 01, 1998 5:34 AM >> >> Criticisms and reconventions of the Communist Manifesto continue to >> be helpful to the human project of converting a magnificent system >> of production into a good and decent system of distribution... >> >> The Manifesto of 1848, whatever its historical, theoretical and >> political faults in the 19th century; whatever its failure to >> capture the changes of the 20th century, continues to transcend >> those criticisms and remain central to the human struggle for social >> justice on a number of counts: >> >> 1. Along with the US Constitution and the Pentateuch, it continues >> to inspire those billions on earth who read about, think about and desire >> a better society than the racist, sexist, class-ridden society now found >> around most of the world. >> >> 2. It was the first widely read document to put human conflict and >> human promise in the sweep and run of macro-economic and political >> forces, taking those problems and hopes out of the realm of gods, kings >> and popes...and relocating problems on the back of oppressors while >> investing hopes in the hands of the oppressed. >> >> 3. It continues to be important to a critique of capitalism in that, >while >> the details may be wrong or dated, still the message remains: wealth is >> created collectively; it must be put to collective use. >> >> 4. The future of capitalism remains bright; in former days, its dark side >> was visible in the grinding poverty of workers, in the terrible working >> conditions of mine, mill and factory, in the growing surplus population >> and in the direct use of the iron fist of the State. >> >> Today those dark sides are no longer as visible to those of us who live >> in Europe or North America while the bright promise of capitalism stands >> in clear view for billions around the world who live in semi-feudal >poverty. >> >> Yet that dark side remains. The 1848 Manifesto made it visible; any 1998 >> Manifesto we write for the 21st Century must map its dimensions and mark >> its victims. >> >> 5. The totalistic revolutions of bureaucratic state planning and/or >> anarchical labor disputes continue to subvert both Marxism and the >Manifesto. >> The USSR did more to damage communism that all the rightwing think tanks >> combined. The US labor movement, so promising early on, settled for >labor >> contracts which failed that larger mission...social and labor justice for >all >> called forth by the Manifesto. >> >> 6. As our good friend, Lew, pointed out, the marxian concept of >Aufgehoben >> requires >> one to build upon the many virtues of market economics rather than >discard the >> entirity. Neither anarchy nor totalistic replacement of privatized >capitalism >> serves aufhebung; serves transcendence, replacement and preservation. >The >> Manifesto >> does so serve. >> >> 7. Both the Manifesto and affirmative postmodern social philosophy puts >agency >> in the hands of human beings collectively...agency may have once been in >the >> hands of god and/or nature but capitalism and the capitalism class--now >global >> capitalism--has appropriated human agency to private purpose. The call >of the >> Manifesto for a dialectical human agency; one which permits both >individual >> creativity as long as it is oriented to the general good remains a basic >guiding >> light in a world of confused and >> >> 8. As long as capitalism remains central to the production and >distribution >> of essential goods and services; as long as people are excluded from the >> bounty produced by their brothers and sisters, their wives and daughters, >> their sons and fathers and their cousins everywhere, the Manifesto and >> the marxism it embodies will be relevant to the human struggle for social >> justice. >> >> TR Young, >Editor >> FROM THE >LEFT >> TR Young >> The Red Feather Institute >> 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., >> 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 >> Email: tr@tryoung.com >> > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From Howery@asanet.org Mon Mar 2 08:35:16 1998 From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: Query on Religion & Disability Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:33:25 -0500 There is an excellent association called Society for Disabilities Studies, which includes many social scientists. I think you can reach them and learn about joining, e-mail, etc. by contacting the former secretary: Lynn Schlesinger at SCHLESL@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu I am sending this to the list in case others are interested in the scholarship on disabilities, as well as e-mail connections. >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Saturday, February 28, 1998 11:56 AM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: Re: Query on Religion & Disability > > > >On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Elizabeth Pullen wrote: > >> >> Hello, >> I received a query from a student who is seeking an email list >> that focuses upon issues of disability in general and religion & >> disability in particular. He is very well-read in the area so he is not >> seeking references just a forum to discuss the issues. >> >> If anyone knows of any lists that might be relevant, could you >> pass them along? Thanks much! >> >> >> Elizabeth Pullen >> Drew University >> epullen@drew.edu >> >> >Dear Elizabeth Pullen, > >My Ph.D comprehensive exam was entitled "Towards a Sociology of >Disability Studies." I presented this topic at a Day of Student >Research Projects at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at >The University of Toronto. > Ms. Pullen, I know of a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, who is part >of a well respected retreat Centre called Ignatius College and Loyola >Retreat House (1-519-824-1250). > > Father John Veltri manages MD. In his 60's, he still says Mass >from a wheel-chair. He is hooked into the E-Mail system. I do not have >the understanding of E-Mail to be able to give you an address. Father >Veltri is very interested in the area of disability. As for myself, I >manage epilepsy and I go to Mass at Ignatius. I hope this can help your > >search for your party. You are free to contact me if I could be of >help. > > >Respectfully, > >Tom Goettler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From svlad@cehs.siu.edu Mon Mar 2 08:36:06 1998 From: Shawn Vlad To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: Rantings Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:40:26 -0600 Jeeze and I thought I was a nieve Masters Student...... At least I know I can get that job as a manager of Pizza Hut when I am done with my MA. Bread Stix anyone???? Shawn Vlad SIU at Carbodale > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 1998 1:02 PM > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: Rantings > > In a message dated 98-03-01 11:37:27 EST, you write: > > > So long as the mainstream political/economic interests create and foster > > more and more "social problems" there will be a growing need for > > sociologists! > > > > -Chris Johnston > > (Sociology, SUNY-Binghamton) > > > Chris, > > As far as I can tell, that secret has yet to be uncovered. > Unfortunately, > the phrase "Damn, I wish we had a sociologist here!!!!!" is rarely uttered > in > the political/economic realm. Perhaps, if this field actually had some > skills > in public relations (rather ironic that we don't) things would be > different. > It seems we are destined to the same fate as philosophy, self-replication. > > In good spirits and high hopes for the future as always, > Vincent Bruzzese > SUNY StonyBrook From dcoon@ksu.edu Mon Mar 2 09:17:07 1998 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:16:53 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon To: Sociology Graduate Students -International Subject: RE: Rantings In-Reply-To: On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Shawn Vlad wrote: > > Jeeze and I thought I was a nieve Masters Student...... At least I know I > can get that job as a manager of Pizza Hut when I am done with my MA. Bread > Stix anyone???? > > Shawn Vlad > SIU at Carbodale Interesting you should mention this...I had a friend from Taiwan who quipped that there are so many PhDs there, PhD stands for "Pizza Hut Delivery" Also I've heard elsewhere PhD=Post hole digger... _________________________________________ | Dave A. Coon | |MA Student & Graduate Teaching Assistant | |Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology & Soc Wk| | Kansas State University | | e-mail: dcoon@ksu.edu | | Office: 253 Waters Hall, KSU | | Office Phone: (785)532-4972 | / )|Office Hrs: Tu/Th 10:45-11:20, W 10:30-12|( \ / / | WEB: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon | \ \ ( ( | TA for SOCIO 211G 12:30-1:45 TU/TH | ) ) (((\ \>|_/->_________________________________<-\_| Subject: correlation vs. causation To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU I wasn't implying to belittle the issue in Kansas. It is a scary one for anyone concerned. I was just making the sociological point that even if it weren't for the Topeka Minister, such a witchhunt could very well occur. As anyone who has taught soc. to the Beavis and Buttheads of the world, your worst homophobes have very little religious motivation. From conroyt@bu.edu Mon Mar 2 13:00:49 1998 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:00:46 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy Reply-To: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: religion debate In-Reply-To: <4c0945de.34f9d630@aol.com> Having made some points earlier, I am feeling the need to jump back into this debate, both to make my position clear and more importantly, to try to steer the arguments in a more balanced direction. First of all, I never compared religion with the AMA or the NFL. I agree that all are social constructs but I also agree with those who object that these are different sorts of constructs. However, I don't think that TR Young was necessarily making a full fledged comparison by linking them together. I read him as simply illustrating a basic point about the constructed nature of social reality. Is there really any debate on this conceptual point? Also, I certainly do not, as might be suggested by others, only view religion in a positive light. I am also not jumping on any sort of media or popular culture bandwagon which spoonfeeds people on "all the splendors that is religion." My point, which apparently got lost, is a simple one: religion is fairly open ended in terms of how persons interpret, and attempt to make use of, it. Some sects or congregations may preach close mindedness and intolerance, but not all do. Some members of their respective congregations follow literal interpretations of scriptures but not all do. In short, it seems overly simplistic to me to make such blanket generalizations, particularly about an insitution that is found, in one form or another, in nearly all societies and over the entire history of the homo sapiens species, as best as we know. It also seems simplistic and reductionist to isolate religion as oppressive, or to say that religion is THE source of all oppression, without considering the range of possible political, or politico-religious, arrangements across societies; it is against the absurdity of such simplification that I was first reacting. I also think that it is rather absurd to suggest that religion denies agency. Religion may preach a determinism which ultimately traces back to god, the prime mover. On a conceptual level, and in these terms, there may be this sort of ultimate metaphysical denial of the agent. However, on a practical and experiential basis, the influences of religion are conventional and normative, not strictly causal and determinative. People can choose to remain a part of their religious organization. They can choose to try to become more involved and to influence the administration of it. Or, they can choose to switch churches, or to drop out of religious participation altogether. All of these options get carried out all of the time. A word on religion and intolerance and on the diversity of religion and its interpretation by practitioners: Using religion as the "explanation" for one's bigotry requires, it would seem a fuller investigation. Perhaps there are some additional reasons for one's bigotry which lend themselves to a seeker seeking out confirmatory hate messages. As has been pointed out, one need not go to church to be homophobic. I'm certainly not denying that their are hate mongers wearing preachers' robes or sitting in pews nodding their bigoted heads to venemous hate spew; we all know that this occurs. But is this any more representative of religion than are priests and nuns in El Salvador during the Reagan era living amongst and caring for the poor, or of churches which welcome gays and lesbians into their ranks and which sanctify gay couples' committments to one another, or of church based educational institutions providing educations to students? In short, I'm inclined to think that religion is largely a neutral social technology, and that its impact depends upon how it is used by motivated actors; I think that the motivation typically precedes the use. I think that we need to be very careful about the risk of our theoretical and ideological conceits and to refrain from telling members of society, some of whom are religious, how they out to think or what their ultimate beliefs or values ought to be. Its one thing to stand up against oppression. However, Its not necessarily our job to be the final arbitors of society's value scheme; we can suggest, but we shouldn't impose, a selected value system. And we may also, if we open our minds up to it, find that their are potential partners for fighting oppression from amongst the religious segments of society. Tom Conroy Sociology - Boston University From glenn@sobek.Colorado.EDU Mon Mar 2 14:51:45 1998 Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:51:41 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:51:41 -0700 (MST) From: Glenn Muschert To: Sociology Graduate Students--International Subject: Re: Fiddler on the Roof In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980302081442.2aaffbc0@sensible-net.com> Socgrads, TR Young wrote: > Finally, I want to stand by the 5th point of the earlier post... > > The god concept, the Catholic Church, Philadelphia, the NFL, the AMA, > the ASA and the Socgrad Network are, each and all, human constructs. Sure, it's always easy to pick on Philly, even when all other resources have been exhausted. BTW, Philly is my home, although not my current residence. :) :) I thought that a bit of levity might serve at the moment. Viva! Glenn Glenn W. Muschert Department of Sociology University of Colorado at Boulder Campus Box 327 Boulder, CO 80309-0327 U.S.A. voice: 303.492.1415 email: glenn@sobek.colorado.edu WWW URL: http://socsci.colorado.edu/~glenn/home.html From glenn@sobek.Colorado.EDU Mon Mar 2 15:00:06 1998 Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:00:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:00:01 -0700 (MST) From: Glenn Muschert To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: virtual seminar: communist manifesto Please distribute to the relevant lists and individuals. Comrades and Friends: Progressive Sociologists' Network is happy to announce the beginning of a virtual seminar to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of the Manifesto of the Communist Party. The "Manifesto", the most widely read and defining single text in the history of modern socialism, was first published in February, 1848. "League of the Just" was a secret political organization formed in 1836 by the radical German artisans and workers living in Paris. At its London Congress in 1847,the organization changed its name to "Communist League." The "Manifesto" was the political document of the newly renamed organization. While the names of both Marx and Engels appeared as co-authors, the primary authorship of the Manifesto should be attributed to Marx. In Engels' own phrase, "the fundamental proposition which forms its nucleus belongs to Marx." But then again, the concept of authorship itself needs to be problematized. Like any other text, the Manifesto makes sense within the context of a historically embedded intertexuality. As Robert Beamish, one of the authors participating in our virtual seminar has pointed out "The manifesto was ultimately a collective effort of people who were trying to understand the prevailing social conditions so they could change them... while the document was drafted in its final form by Karl Marx, and the final credit for its organization and rhetorical style is due to him, the content and message of the Manifesto were really the product of an extended, intense, but open debate among committed communist-internationalists as they sought to define their programme nad understand the world they wanted to change." The purpose of the virtual seminar is to stimulate dialogues on the contemporary theoretical and practical relevance of the Manifesto. We encourages commentaries on the papers included in the seminar, as well as other related issues from a multiplicity of vantage points within the general terrain of progressive scholarship and activism. We have three papers so far: Rob Beamish, The Making of the Manifesto* A. Gunder Frank, ReOrient: Global Economy in the Asian Age Charles Ostenle, Manifesto for Praxis Societies and for a Global Democratic and Socialist Political Economy Date: Marc 4 - March 12 Format: To participate in the conference send mail to LISTPROC@csf.colorado.edu in the message proper write sub psn-seminars firstname lastname Location: You can find the conference papers at http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/seminars or you can send mail to LISTPROC@csf.colorado.edu and in the message proper write: get psn-seminars beamish get psn-seminars ostenle get psn-seminars gunderfrank From chadk@yourinter.net Mon Mar 2 21:31:02 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:29:34 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: chadk@yourinter.net (Chad Kimmel) Subject: Application Activities Socgrad members, I am teaching two classes in undergraduate research methods: one in Applied Social Methods and the other in Computer Use in Sociology. I am asking for advice and perhaps examples of application activities that would relate to these areas. In the computer class, I will be covering codebook development, data cleaning, data entry techniq's, etc. Anything is helpful. Thanks, Chad. ***************************************************** Chad M. Kimmel Graduate Assistant/Data Manager Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 ckimmel@yourinter.net http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel 724-463-7010 **************************************************** From Nogod1@aol.com Mon Mar 2 21:38:39 1998 by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GVEJa15729 From: Nogod1 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:38:18 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation In a message dated 98-03-02 11:37:05 EST, you write: > As anyone who has taught soc. to the Beavis and Buttheads > of the world, your worst homophobes have very little religious motivation. > This is true, however these people also do not have the resources in which to put their bigotry into action. Whereas highly motivated and highly religious individuals do. Vincent Bruzzese From Nogod1@aol.com Mon Mar 2 21:44:27 1998 by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GGWCa01471 From: Nogod1 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:44:15 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Application Activities In a message dated 98-03-02 23:41:26 EST, you write: > Socgrad members, > > I am teaching two classes in undergraduate research methods: one in Applied > Social Methods and the other in Computer Use in Sociology. I am asking for > advice and perhaps examples of application activities that would relate to > these areas. In the computer class, I will be covering codebook > development, data cleaning, data entry techniq's, etc. Anything is helpful. > > Thanks, > > Chad. Chad, The SPSS computer program is easy to use, and quite adequate for what you will be teaching them....using GSS data sets, they can learn quite a bit. In reason, Vincent Bruzzese From Nogod1@aol.com Mon Mar 2 22:00:26 1998 by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GBALa26839 From: Nogod1 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:59:51 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: religion debate Tom, > Having made some points earlier, I am feeling the need to jump back into > this debate, both to make my position clear and more importantly, to try > to steer the arguments in a more balanced direction. I can not tell you how happy I am that you have returned to show us the light. >First of all, I never compared religion with the AMA or the NFL. I agree >that all are social constructs but I also agree with those who object that >these are different sorts of constructs. However, I don't think that TR >Young was necessarily making a full fledged comparison by linking them >together. I read him as simply illustrating a basic point about the >constructed nature of social reality. Is there really any debate on this >conceptual point? Obviously there is a debate on this point, haven't you been reading the posts? And as I recall nobody accused you of comparing religion with anything. And all of social reality is constructed....does that mean we can compare everything equally? >Also, I certainly do not, as might be suggested by others, only view >religion in a positive light. I am also not jumping on any sort of media >or popular culture bandwagon which spoonfeeds people on "all the splendors >that is religion." My point, which apparently got lost, is a simple one: >religion is fairly open ended in terms of how persons interpret, and >attempt to make use of, it. Some sects or congregations may preach close >mindedness and intolerance, but not all do. Some members of their >respective congregations follow literal interpretations of scriptures but >not all do. In short, it seems overly simplistic to me to make such >blanket generalizations, particularly about an insitution that is found, >in one form or another, in nearly all societies and over the entire >history of the homo sapiens species, as best as we know. It also seems >simplistic and reductionist to isolate religion as oppressive, or to say >that religion is THE source of all oppression, without considering the >range of possible political, or politico-religious, arrangements across >societies; it is against the absurdity of such simplification that I was >first reacting. The only thing simplistic here is your response. Consider this, if at all possible: Religion divides the world into a sacred/profane, purity/danger dichotomy, creates a hierarchy which generally follows a; God, Man, Woman or Heterosexual then Homosexual or perhaps One religion over another religion. Due to this overriding message, intolerance of others is given a forum conducive to its message. Now if you care to disagree with the theory, that is fine...however fortunately, the Statistics pan out on this one. The difference between someone who is highly religious and one who is non- religious on the dependent variable (racism) is astounding...almost 40%. If given a week I will gladly put these statistics in comprehensible format and send it to anyone who cares to view or dispute it. >I also think that it is rather absurd to suggest that religion denies >agency. Once again, I do not know where you are finding these claims which you so empathetically refute. Simply because it is stated that religion influences the ways individuals view the world, by no means implies that agency is stripped away turning us all slaves to structure..... The rest of your argument was repetitive. I hope I answered your questions. In frustration, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From Nogod1@aol.com Mon Mar 2 22:34:09 1998 by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GDMKa02916 From: Nogod1 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:33:54 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Fiddler on the Roof In a message dated 98-03-02 08:22:20 EST, you write: > > go in peace with your god, > > TR TR, I have no god. But I enjoyed your response thank you. I will not however thank you for getting that damn song stuck in my head....'I wish I was a rich man...yada deda deda deda yada deda deda dum....' Humming my life away, Vincent Bruzzese From tr@tryoung.com Tue Mar 3 04:08:55 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Fiddler on the Roof Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:12:15 -0500 Vince: I have nogod, too... But, better than gods, I have have colleagues such as thee, I am a rich man! TR At 12:33 AM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-02 08:22:20 EST, you write: > >> >> go in peace with your god, >> >> TR > > >TR, > >I have no god. But I enjoyed your response thank you. I will not however >thank you for getting that damn song stuck in my head....'I wish I was a rich >man...yada deda deda deda yada deda deda dum....' > >Humming my life away, >Vincent Bruzzese > TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Mar 3 08:03:21 1998 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 98 09:53:52 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: correlation vs. causation To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Once again, it is one thing to argue that religion divides the world up into sacred/profane, purity/danger, natural/unnatural sort of dichotomies, it would be another to argue that were religion to disappear, other institutions such as education or the state would not then become the basis for these sorts of dichotomies -- these dichotomies exist because almost everyone but the most navel-gazing pomos think in terms of these dichotomies -- because we are socialized to believe in them. From svlad@cehs.siu.edu Tue Mar 3 08:37:26 1998 From: Shawn Vlad To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: Fiddler on the Roof Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:41:39 -0600 All day long I would bide bide bum iiiiiiiiiiiiiffffffff I were a wealthy MAN (aka not a Sociologist) > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 5:12 AM > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: Fiddler on the Roof > > Vince: I have nogod, too... > > > But, better than gods, I have have colleagues > such as thee, > > I am a rich man! TR > > > > At 12:33 AM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 98-03-02 08:22:20 EST, you write: > > > >> > >> go in peace with your > god, > >> > >> > TR > > > > > >TR, > > > >I have no god. But I enjoyed your response thank you. I will not > however > >thank you for getting that damn song stuck in my head....'I wish I was a > rich > >man...yada deda deda deda yada deda deda dum....' > > > >Humming my life away, > >Vincent Bruzzese > > > TR Young > The Red Feather Institute > 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., > 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 > Email: tr@tryoung.com From meisel@sobek.Colorado.EDU Tue Mar 3 09:05:30 1998 by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id JAA02934; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:05:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:05:25 -0700 (MST) From: Meisel Joshua To: Nogod1 Subject: Re: religion debate In-Reply-To: <19c73af.34fb8e49@aol.com> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Nogod1 wrote: > Obviously there is a debate on this point, haven't you been reading the posts? > And as I recall nobody accused you of comparing religion with anything. And > all of social reality is constructed....does that mean we can compare > everything equally? Vincent, To compare or not to compare....yet you do seem to be contradicting yourself... lurking, Josh From mshader@mailer.fsu.edu Tue Mar 3 09:32:24 1998 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:32:15 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: mshader@mailer.fsu.edu (Michael Shader) Subject: Shameless PLug Looking for a comedic/sociological take on the Clinton Scandal? Check out my column, the Socio-Comic at crytalair.com. mike From dcoon@ksu.edu Tue Mar 3 09:42:38 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:42:27 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon To: Sociology Graduate Students International Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:55:27 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Michael Reid To: Dave Alan Coon Subject: Error Condition Re: Re: correlation vs. causation? (fwd) Would you send this to the socgrad list/...problems at my end. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:50:10 -0600 (CST) From: listproc@csf.colorado.edu To: breid@ksu.edu Subject: Error Condition Re: Re: correlation vs. causation? breid@ksu.edu: You are not subscribed to socgrad@csf.colorado.edu. Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe, send mail to listproc@csf.colorado.edu with the following request: subscribe SOCGRAD Your Name This message cannot be resent again from your address shown above, unless its body is slightly modified. In addition, the system found the following address(es) that resemble yours. If one of these is you, please resend your message from that one. BREID@KSUVM.KSU.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:50:10 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Michael Reid To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: correlation vs. causation? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980302084441.00768bbc@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca> Well put Brian. Might I also add that at no point has there been a statement as to the purpose for the original request for homosexuality/bisexuality content in courses. Let's be careful on our assumptions. I know of at least two legislatures that are homosexual. Could they have asked? Perhaps. On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Brian Edward Hovsepian wrote: > At some point in time you wrote: > >Once again, I admonish you all, not to defend religion blindly......it is sad > >that some of you find religion so endearing that you can not even consider > the > >possibility that a religious source could be behind the witch hunts in > Kansas. > > > >Willing to wager anything that you will find a person of the cloth behind the > >crusade in Kansas, > >Vincent Bruzzese > >SUNY StonyBrook >fainter> > > > I'm not sure this is a case of finding religion endearing. A difference > between the construct of spirituality as opposed to the institution of > religion may be where this argument is going awry. May not the idea > postulated by Marx and held sancrosanct by more than a few people > constitute religion, particularly when not critically analysed? Marx did > feel that once the workers ushered in a new society based on social justice > there would no longer be a need for religion, as religion served as a > refuge for the miserable and the poor. > I feel this is a short-sighted notion in and of itself. We are not > inherently economic creatures. Granted, we have been raised, for > centuries, to believe in the power of economics, but just because we have, > does not mean that we are not above and about much more than economics. > Yes...much wrong has been done in the name of religion, but what have been > the forces "behind" the evil done? I think you may be surprised... > Therefore, my assertion that spirituality and religion are two very > different things. > And, depending on where you are in the world, "blessed are the poor, for > they shall inherit the earth," from the Sermon on the Mount, may be a hell > of a lot more effective than "workers of the world unite." > > Brian Hovsepian > Dept. of Educational Foundations > University of New Brunswick > > > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Tue Mar 3 10:22:57 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:21:28 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Position Announcement (fwd) FYI - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:33:18 -0700 From: Turner, Shane To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: Position Announcement Please pass this along to anyone who might be interested: Carroll College, Helena, MT seeks Assistant Professor, tenure track in Sociology to begin August 1998. A generalist is sought with strong background in theory and methods. Must be able to teach in such areas as race relations, urban/rural sociology, and gerontology. Ph.D. in Sociology required; A.B.D. may be considered; successful teaching experience preferred. To receive priority consideration, send curriculum vitae, letters of reference, transcripts and names, addresses and phone numbers of three professional references to the Office of Human Resources, Carroll College, 1601 N. Benton Ave., Helena, MT 59625 by March 27, 1998. Visit us at www.carroll.edu. EOE From rlgoldst@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu Tue Mar 3 13:47:06 1998 Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:47:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:47:00 -0600 (CST) From: rachel laura goldstein To: "Soc Grads (nat'l)" Subject: PhDs in the UK Hi, everyone. I was wondering if there was anyone on this list who is (or knows someone who is) studying at the University of Greenwich in London who could tell me more about programs there, etc. Also, if there is anyone who is studying or has studied in the UK who could fill me in on how PhDs programs in general tend to work there in comparison to the US, please let me know. Thanks in advance for your help! Rachel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rachel L. Goldstein Department of Sociology University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 326 Lincoln Hall, MC-454 702 S. Wright Street Urbana, IL 61801 217 - 333 - 1950 rlgoldst@uiuc.edu "Life is change. Growth is optional." -- Karen Kaiser Clark From Howery@asanet.org Tue Mar 3 14:43:16 1998 From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: PhDs in the UK Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:42:19 -0500 Several UK departments are listed in the ASA GUIDE; a very useful resource person (American) in the UK who knows higher education there very well, is Vaneeta D'Andrea. She is at 100302.111@CompuServe.COM Carla Howery, ASA >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 3:47 PM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: PhDs in the UK > >Hi, everyone. I was wondering if there was anyone on this list who is >(or knows someone who is) studying at the University of Greenwich in >London who could tell me more about programs there, etc. Also, if >there >is anyone who is studying or has studied in the UK who could fill me in > >on how PhDs programs in general tend to work there in comparison to the > >US, please let me know. > >Thanks in advance for your help! > >Rachel > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Rachel L. Goldstein >Department of Sociology >University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign >326 Lincoln Hall, MC-454 >702 S. Wright Street >Urbana, IL 61801 >217 - 333 - 1950 >rlgoldst@uiuc.edu > >"Life is change. Growth is optional." > > -- Karen Kaiser Clark > From tr@tryoung.com Tue Mar 3 14:57:00 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Detroit Athletes & the Realization Problem Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:00:08 -0500 Those who teach stratification, soc/sports and or econ sociology may want to consider the wages and fees of professional athletes as case in point. The Free Press has listed the 8 most highly paid athletes in Detroit... For the next few years, contracts call for big bucks: Brian Williams, Pistons $6.4 million/year Sergei Fedorov, Wings[hockey], $6.3 million/year Barry Sanders, Lions, $5.8 million/year [and worth every cent!] Grant Hill, Pistons, $5.6 million/year Scott Mitchell, Lions Q-back, $5.3 million/year Steve Yzerman, Wings, $4.4 million/year Bobby Higgenson, Tigers [baseball], $4 million/year Brendan Shanahan, Wings, only $3.8 million/year Structural-Functional Theory explains such income levels by a combination of several factors; sacrifice, technical difficulty and most interestingly, comparative worth to society. One could make an argument that each player above is more valuable to a given team than lesser paid athletes...and use the same kind of explanation. Or... One could use a marxist thesis: Capitalism, a most productive economic system, has a realization problem which can, in part, be solved by using the grace, skill, art and talent of writers, athletes, musicians and others to create demand where demand would otherwise not arise. The argument is that since capitalism creates far more goods than can workers as a class buy back given the fact that all wages, salaries, fees and other labor costs including supplier labor costs do not match the market value of the goods produced, these goods tend to pile up unsold. Then the question becomes, how to dispose of 'surplus' production. The answers are few: 1. reduce price and increase demand but that would lower profits; investors would take their money and run to more profitable lines of production. 2. sell it to the state for redistribution to the 'surplus' population. that works nicely but state debt tends to pile up. 3. workers, customers and managers can steal some of it and thus reduce supply...but again profit suffers 4. find new markets overseas...great idea unless other capitalists in other countries have the same idea then it becomes necessary for the state to use military force to protect overseas markets from 'unfair' competition. 5. use art, science, drama and social honor of 'great' athletes, actors, military and political figures to help create demand. Michael Jordan, arguably the best bb player of all time, serves excellently well the 'functional need' of capitalists to realize profit. As do Williams, Fedorov, Sanders, Hill et al. So athlete salaries do not reflect the central importance of the player to society; the role of the athlete to society; the game to society or the advertizement to society. Rather they reflect the central importance of each above to the realization problem a one firm. Now one could say as did Charlie Wilson long ago, that what is good for General Motors is good for the country and, in same fashion, what is good for Adidas, Honda or IBM is good for the country...one could if one wanted to save structural functionalism as a theory explaining income differences. The better explanation is that the art, skill, grace and rare talent of Sanders, Jordan et al can be used to generate an audience; the audience can be used to generate a market and the market can be used to solve the realization problem... ....even if the goods and services sold are of little value to society as a social and cultural complex...cigarettes, tennis shoes, beverages and such...sic transit structural- functionalism. TR Young TR Young The Red Feather Institute 8085 Essex, Weidman, Mi., 48893--ph: [517] 644 3089 Email: tr@tryoung.com From kcwalker@syr.edu Tue Mar 3 19:48:12 1998 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:47:48 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <980301.150347.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> It's simply not clear to me why most courses need to have some queer content.** Soc of organizations, classical social theory, soc of work, media and society, rural sociology, sociology of community, political sociology, mass communications, sociology of leisure, international political economy, ethnic minorities come readily to mind as courses that wouldn't suffer one wit were queer content absent from them. Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT cover in order to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something if, as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to the subject. So what do you give up? For the sake of argument, I'd also say that it's not clear to me that courses that would seem related, like soc of families, need to have queer content. It seems to me that I could--and in fact I have--taught sociology of families without once dealing with queer families. Why? Because I think one can very easily discuss the very basic social norms and practices that comprise the social institution of 'the' family without necessarily dealing with queer families. Which is to say, I'd deal with issues that would affect all families in the US whether they were queer or not. Most of the time, though, I do try to thematize my courses in such a way as to include queer content (as well as gender, race, ethnicity, class). And I mean *thematize* Allan, I don't just mix and stir. So, if I teach about the breakdown of the breadwiner ethic, I use Ehrenreich's Hearts of Men which shows how the normative ideal of masculine heterosexual breadwinning was enforced by the charge that men who did not marry or who did not 'properly' support their families were gay. I don't include some obligatory unit devoted to queer families. By doing this, then, I show how gay/straight is socially constructed and, indeed, reciprocally require one another. I'd rather not have to institute some mechanisms for policing course content since I do believe rather firmly in the importance of academic freedom, though certainly not an unbridled freedom. Frankly, what scares me more is having folks including such content in their courses when they are unprepared to do so. The way I deal with the issue Lisa raised is to begin by teaching the dominant or hegemonic ideals that shape various social instutions. That is, I tend to problematize whiteness, middle classness, male-ness, and heterosexuality. I do this for many reasons, but one is most important: I've taken seriously the argument that white middle class folks ought to do the work of examining how privilege works, how it is constituted. Kelley Kelley Crouse Department of Sociology Colgate University 323 Alumni Hall Hamilton, NY 14456 **Not that I think that it particularly matters, but my experience suggests that it does to some folks, I'm bisexual and harbor very little internalized self hatred about it. So, I don't say this to somehow authorize my claims, but simply to put to rest assumptions that my interlocutors might make. From Nogod1@aol.com Wed Mar 4 00:51:26 1998 by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GXULa10082 From: Nogod1 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:51:20 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Detroit Athletes & the Realization Problem In a message dated 98-03-03 17:01:08 EST, you write: > The Free Press has listed the 8 most highly paid > athletes in Detroit... > > For the next few years, contracts call for big bucks: > > Brian Williams, Pistons $6.4 million/year > > Sergei Fedorov, Wings[hockey], $6.3 million/year > > Barry Sanders, Lions, $5.8 million/year [and worth every cent!] > > Grant Hill, Pistons, $5.6 million/year > > Scott Mitchell, Lions Q-back, $5.3 million/year > > Steve Yzerman, Wings, $4.4 million/year > > Bobby Higgenson, Tigers [baseball], $4 million/year > > Brendan Shanahan, Wings, only $3.8 million/year > T.R. I simply can not believe this..I can not believe that Brian Williams makes more than Grant Hill.....this is truly one of the great mysteries of the universe. From sandrae@umich.edu Wed Mar 4 08:01:26 1998 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:25:21 -0500 From: "Sandra L. Eyster" Reply-To: sandrae@umich.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Kelley Crouse wrote: [Some text snipped for sake of brevity] > For the sake of argument, I'd also say that it's not clear to me that > courses that would seem related, like soc of families, need to have queer > content. It seems to me that I could--and in fact I have--taught sociology > of families without once dealing with queer families. Why? Because I > think one can very easily discuss the very basic social norms and practices > that comprise the social institution of 'the' family without necessarily > dealing with queer families. Which is to say, I'd deal with issues that > would affect all families in the US whether they were queer or not. I'm can't agree with this approach as it is stated. Although one could teach a class that tries to cover issues that encompass *all* families, that would result in a great deal of missed topics. If it were the case that *all families* (including queer) had the same issues, this approach might be more defensible, but not all types of families are the same. For example, research on race/ethnicity have pointed out how models that had been developed on White couples (and mistakenly believed to apply to *all* families) do not apply in the same ways to Black couples. I strongly suspect that one would not advocate ignoring the growing literature on Black families because you don't need to include them to discuss "universal" family issues. An analysis of the literature on gay/lesbian families clearly shows that there are some unique issues in this type of family (legal issues of gay/lesbian family construction or the role of social support can provide two examples). Just as I would include reading on cohabitation, race/ethnicity and class (among other areas), I would include relevant literature on gay/lesbian families. Even if you assumed that you would only include issues that apply to *all* families, I would argue that you still should include a diversity of literature on the various topics. Showing that a process is similar whether the family is gay or straight can illustrate the universality of issues better than only presenting these processes for straight families. For example, Kurdek writes several articles where he compares family processes for gay and straight families. By showing where the theories work and don't work for different types of families, he strengthens our understanding of the "unversality" of family processes. Although underlying family processes operation may be similar across different types of families, differental location of families in the social structure will result in differential outcomes on important variables. As a result, it is often important to illustrate these points with research on families that are differentially located in society. This is not gratuitous inclusion of gay/lesbian families in order to assuage some sort of illprepared "heterosexual guilt." It is just good sociology. Just my two cents. Sandra L. Eyster Department of Sociology University of Michigan sandrae@umich.edu From rb6553a@american.edu Wed Mar 4 12:12:57 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:13:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Kelley Crouse wrote: "Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT cover in order to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something if, as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to the subject. So what do you give up?" While I do not quarrel with everything you have to say (a great deal of it makes sense -- for instance, that Rural Sociology may not be a fertile ground for exploring "queer" issues), I must point out the institutional heterosexism of the above quote. Your statement assumes that one starts out planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the process displacing other "more important" material. This certainly is one way to look at things, and is the very ideology used by (mostly) well-intentioned academics for many years in excluding womens' studies, multicultural coverage, etc. What I feel needs to be done is to stop this mode of thinking. Instead, begin with a "blank slate" and ask: "What is important and relevant to cover, and how can I do that in a fair, comprehensive and inclusive way?" Beginning with a pre-programmed "agenda" based on "what's always been done" and then trying to cram in "extra" material is always going to result in the exclusion of minority/less-powerful voices. Your other comment, that you teach Sociology of the Family without mentioning "queer" issues and don't lose anything, is along similar objectionable lines. You say that you cover issues which impact "all families." This seems to me to be something of a cop out. While it is true that some issues may impact all families (such as the threat of nuclear war), there are few issues that affect all families in the same ways. I'll bet that you cover racial/ethnic issues in that same course (if you don't, you should), so your exclusion of "queer" families needs better justification than you give. Your comment reminds me of a professor I had in a multicultural counseling class, who responded to my question asking why Gays and Lesbians were not included at all in the course by saying: "It's the same issues." As if being a Lesbian has no unique component/history/experience. That's as insulting as saying that issues that a Black and an Asian would bring to counseling are identical. The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last "invisible" minority. Robert A. Brooks The American University From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 4 13:16:14 1998 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 15:04:26 EST From: danielle Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <852565BD.0067A489.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Thank you Robert for your comments. i agree totally. I may be biased because I am studying gender, but I cannot imagine actually addressing ANYTHING having to do with families, gender, politics, culture, etc without dealing with heterosexism, which leads one to a discussion of queer issues. Robert's comment about assuming that you have to "add" queer issues takes us back to the days of "add women and stir", when women were not integrated into sociological texts, theories, or discussions, and when they were, it was as tokens or in a marginalized position. I would hope that we have come further in our society, but maybe we haven't. Danielle Currier University of Connecticut From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 4 13:37:44 1998 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 15:25:53 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Homosexuality and Kansas To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU I think there is a point nestled in here which probably needs to be made more strongly, especially in terms of highlighting what exactly sociologists ought to be doing and ought not be doing. Dealing with sexual minorities in a family course, a social psych. course, a theory course, or a "deviance" course isn't an issue of inclusion in the traditional liberal sense of the term -- the issue is certain sociological concepts and certain sociological worldviews -- especially what is a "normal" family, what is "masculinity" and what is "femininity" can't be responsibly talked about without first being problematized by focusing on issues such as homosexuality. In fact, it was John Gagnon (who many would associate with the discipline's old guard demographically) who made the point that in order to truly understand what it is "straight" folks do, you have to pay attention to what queer folks do and how they perceive what they do. From lvf4m@server1.mail.virginia.edu Wed Mar 4 15:21:00 1998 From: Lisa Friel Sender: lvf4m@server1.mail.virginia.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Homosexual Families Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:20:46 -0500 (EST) I think I missed the original email sparking this debate. Please forgive me if these two cents were already cashed in. LGBT people are generally part of "heterosexual" families - they are the brothers, sisters, aunts, and children of heterosexuals. With this perspective there are a lot more "gay/lesbian" families. If one only considers "gay/lesbian parenting", the children in these families are still predominately born in one partner's previous heterosexual union. In which case, the line separating a heterosexual from a homosexual family is blurred. Finally, the psycho-social studies of g/l/b, and on-going legal battles could have tremondous effects on our conceptions of the family in general - especially in terms of 1) the effects of les/gay parenting on children, and 2) how we "define" marraige and family. In terms of the former, there is little if any evidence of harm. So perhaps two parents of any sex are better than one. I am early in my grad career still (so please be kind) and am studying sexual behavior, sexuality and family issues. I am co-authoring a paper on the family context of adolescent sexuality. Also, I am beginning work with Charlotte Patterson (a pyschologist here at UVA and an expert on the effects of g/l parenting on kids) on g/l families. If any one wants to correspond on these issues, I'd love it! Lisa ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa Friel Graduate Student, Teaching Assistant Univ. of Virginia, Dept. of Sociology ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 4 18:23:15 1998 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 20:15:21 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: social class exercise To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU When Kelley talks about realizing privilege, she talks about this exercise she sent to teachsoc. Some of my students got it, but then again it was Monday morning around mid-term time when I tried it: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:43:50 -0500 From: Kelley Crouse Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: sociology of sports To: teachsoc@maple.lemoyne.edu Hi, Currently, I'm teaching a couple of sections of Introductory Sociology at Colgate University. We're just finishing up a reading of Jay MacLeod's Ain't No Makin' It, a discussion of cultural capital and a viewing of Hoop Dreams (next week: The American Dream at Groton) Because I think that discussions of class oppression ought to be accompanied by discussion of hidden class privilege I did the following exercise: 1. I asked them to defend the *logic* of the pro sports draft against the objections of my 10 yr old son who thinks it unfair that the best players in college ball get drafted by the teams with the worst records. My son thinks it's really unfair that his favorite player--whoever is the best at the moment--has to play for the team with the loosingest record. The player who's worked hard and has demonstrated his talent should be able to go to the team with the most prestige and status--and often the most monetary resources. 2. Their response is that if the best teams with the best records had access to the best players (talent and resources) then the competition would be very unfair. Eventually, pro ball would be very boring as a few teams came to dominate the game. 3. Once the class agrees that redistribution of talent and resouces and access to the development of talent and resources is necessary for the competition to be fair, I ask them if it wouldn't be reasonable to apply the same logic to other social institutions. 4. Let's say that the families that make up each social class are like the teams and that each generation is like a season in pro ball. Wouldn't it be fair to ask that the winning families (those at the top of the social class ladder) NOT pass on their advantages to their offspring. In other words, in order for the competition to be fair, wealthier families should not be allowed access to the better schools. Indeed, maybe it would be best if the children from the wealthiest families went to the schools that received the fewest resources and chilren from the poorest families had access to schools with the most resources. Afterall, I remind them, if it is really true that anyone with the ambition and talent necessary to succeed can succeed if they just try, then even those from wealthy backgrounds attending the poorer schools will perservere and succeed despite the disadvantages they face. They will be able to get the most out of their educations. They will be able to go on to schools that aren't as prestigious but they'll still have the opportunity to excell if they just try. They can then get into grad schools or whatever line of work they choose as long as they demonstrate their merit. Well, of course, they know better. The thought that they, as children of upper middle class parents, should be denied access to the best k-12 and college educations is blasphemous. Needless to say I encountered hostitlity. I've done this before at Syracuse University and at a couple of state colleges in NY, but have never encountered nearly the amount of hostility that I encountered at Colgate. A couple of students were honest enough to say that they know it's unfair that they have access to advantages and opportunties that they did not earn themselves--their parents earned it. Even so, they don't care. They're not about to give up their privileges and that's just the way it is. Like it or lump it. While I don't like to hear this, at least I can respect their logical consistency. So, what I'm really concerned about are those students who aren't logically consistent: the ones who say that it's not unfair and that their unearned privilige has nothing to do with class oppression. Aside from the advice that I ought not to use the sports anology, any advice, thoughts? Kelley Crouse From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 4 18:48:00 1998 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 20:40:34 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Natl. Adjunct Congress Meeting (NY To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Dennis Breslin ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:51:58 -0500 Reply-To: UCSB Religious Studies Forum Sender: UCSB Religious Studies Forum From: Elizabeth Pullen Subject: NOTICE: Natl. Adjunct Congress Meeting (NYC, 4/3-5/1998) I thought this notice should get circulated for those interested and available to participate in a larger arena of discussion about the national situation of part-time teaching faculty. Elizabeth Pullen Drew University epullen@drew.edu >Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:20:29 -0500 (EST) >From: Vinnie Tirelli Cary Nelson (Will Teach for Food) will be the keynoter on Friday night. --Vinnie Tirelli, Adjuncts Unite! Graduate School and University Center City University of New York ********************************** The Doctoral Students' Council of the City University of New York Graduate Center Welcomes: Second National Congress of Part-Time, Adjunct, Non-Tenure-Track and GTA Faculty "Our Time Has Come" New York City April 3, 4, 5 1998 The Second National Congress of Part-Time, Adjunct, Non-Tenure-Track and GTA Faculty will be held in New York on April 3, 4 and 5 1998. The Congress will open at the CUNY Graduate Center at 33 West 42 street. The Second National Congress is an event organized by faculty who are concerned about the current and future state of higher education. Plenary and workshop sessions facilitated by faculty and faculty organizers will address the key strategies, needs and visions of part time/ adjunct, GTA and non-tenured faculty over the three day working conference. This conference takes place at a time when faculty, both full and part time, at institutions of higher education are under an escalating assault. The current trend to degrade the profession through the creation and expansion of an increasingly polarized multi-tier system is academically indefensible and is in the worst interest of students, their parents and the increasingly exploited instructional work-force. The administrative and governing apparatus prioritizes profit-oriented research, endowments, infrastructure, and administration over and against education. The push to drive down faculty salaries, eliminate tenure and populate the university with a group of over-worked contingent laborers may advance the careers of some administrators, but it represents a betrayal of the university's educational mission. In order to combat the forces arrayed against students and faculty alike, we are coming together to educate and organize. This second congress is part of a growing movement of lower-tier faculty, students, and organizers to take an active role in the struggle to save higher education. This congress is envisioned as the continuation of an organized effort by lower-tier faculty to transform the institutions in which they teach. Please publicize this in appropriate forums. CUNY Graduate Center / 33 West 42nd Street / New York, NY, 10036 Brecht Forum/122 West 27th Street/ 10th Floor/New York, NY, 10001 ************************************* Schedule: Opening: Friday Plenary April 3 - 3-9 - Cary Nelson Workshops on Saturday from 9 - 5:30 (Party Saturday Night at The Brecht Forum) Follow-up at the Brecht Forum on April 5 from 10 am to 3 pm. ************************************** There is no conference fee, but we ask that you register ASAP. REGISTRATION- reply to: vtirelli@email.gc.cuny.edu (or see below). REGISTRATION Name: Affiliation: Phone #: E-Mail: Do you need accommodations information ? Is there a workshop that you would be interested in (describe it): Would you be interested in leading a workshop (describe it)? Can your organization make a contribution to help defray the costs of this event? $50. $100. $250 other_______ Checks can be made out to: CUNY Graduate Center and mailed to: The Adjunct Project c/o Doctoral Students' Council 25 W. 43rd St., Rm. 400 New York, NY 10036 If you cannot register by e-mail, mail registration to the above address. For further information, please call Eric at 212 642-2143. From chadk@yourinter.net Wed Mar 4 21:27:42 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:26:04 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: chadk@yourinter.net (Chad Kimmel) Subject: Application Activities Thanks to all who responded to my plea for help. The information provided was very beneficial! cheers and keep well, chad... ***************************************************** Chad M. Kimmel Graduate Assistant/Data Manager Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 ckimmel@yourinter.net http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel 724-463-7010 **************************************************** From kcwalker@syr.edu Thu Mar 5 01:27:53 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 03:27:32 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Kansas In-Reply-To: <980304.153153.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> At 03:25 PM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: >I think there is a point nestled in here which probably needs to be made >more strongly, especially in terms of highlighting what exactly sociologists >ought to be doing and ought not be doing. Dealing with sexual minorities >in a family course, a social psych. course, a theory course, or a "deviance" >course isn't an issue of inclusion in the traditional liberal sense of the >term -- the issue is certain sociological concepts and certain sociological >worldviews -- especially what is a "normal" family, what is "masculinity" >and what is "femininity" can't be responsibly talked about without first >being problematized by focusing on issues such as homosexuality. In fact, >it was John Gagnon (who many would associate with the discipline's old >guard demographically) who made the point that in order to truly understand >what it is "straight" folks do, you have to pay attention to what queer >folks do and how they perceive what they do. > > Well, exactly Alan. But I would like to know what it is you think queers do differently with regard to femininity and masculinity and with regard to living in families. I could see, for example, taking the Foucauldian approach and showing how heterosexuality was defined in terms of a deviant Other--g/l/b`s. I could see, perhaps, how masculinity and femininity might be more fluid, but I haven't seen much to suggest that they are somehow absent. I've taken both of thise approaches in a soc of gender course--though with non trad students who were much more receptive to that kind of thinking. Still, I think it problematic to valorize queer families has somehow getting families 'right' I also think it problematic to reduce queers to their sexual identities. Some food for thought from Jillian Sandell's on line article, "The Cultural Necessity of Queer Families" (http://eserver.org/bs/12/Sandell.htm) "Reducing gays and lesbians to merely sexual beings tends to segregate them as a species apart, ignoring the many areas of shared experience outside of the realm of the sexual." "There are also many legal and financial benefits to having one's family status recongized by the stae, yet once again these derive from assimilating into capitalist society wherein it is monogamous couples who receive preferential insurance, health, and tax benefits." From kcwalker@syr.edu Thu Mar 5 02:23:56 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 04:23:35 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re: social class exercise In-Reply-To: <980304.201726.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> At 08:15 PM 3/4/98 EST, you wrote: > When Kelley talks about realizing privilege, she talks about >this exercise she sent to teachsoc. Some of my students got it, but >then again it was Monday morning around mid-term time when I tried it: > Alan, I'd be curious as to their response. As someone pointed out to me on another list, the hostility I encountered was likely b/c they did "get" it all too well. From talking with them further, my sense is that they're more hostile because they are very good students and feel they've earned the right to be at Colgate, as opposed to a state college. That is, they feel that their intellectual talent has nothing to do with white/class privilege. So, while they can see how someone might be hindered because of conditions of oppression, they cannot see how someone benefits from conditions of privilege. From kcwalker@syr.edu Thu Mar 5 03:39:56 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:39:32 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <852565BD.0067A489.00@notes-gw.american.edu> > Your statement assumes that one starts out >planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the >process displacing other "more important" material. Yes, you're right, the language does make it appear that way. Apologies. But, I thought I was making clear in the rest of the post that this is NOT at all how I approach the construction of a course, to wit: "Most of the time, though, I do try to thematize my courses in such a way as to include queer content (as well as gender, race, ethnicity, class). And I mean *thematize* Allan, I don't just mix and stir. So, if I teach about the breakdown of the breadwiner ethic, I use Ehrenreich's Hearts of Men which shows how the normative ideal of masculine heterosexual breadwinning was enforced by the charge that men who did not marry or who did not 'properly' support their families were gay. I don't include some obligatory unit devoted to queer families. By doing this, then, I show how gay/straight is socially constructed and, indeed, reciprocally require one another." I also noted that, "For the sake of argument" I could see how someone would construct a course on the family without finding it crucial to deal with queer issues. I have done this before, but simply because I thematized the course historically and dealt with certain issues that I decided I wanted to deal with at the moment: the second shift, the relationship between economic change and changes in family structure, masculinity/femininity, problematizing masculinity and asking 'what is Fatherhood'? revealing the myth of black family pathology, the war over the family and the welfare policy debates. I don't use textbooks and prefer that students really understand a text, so we spend a lot of time reading, discussing, writing, learning how to critique arguments and, of course, how to make them. In that sense, I don't teach a course as if it were some salad bar where you pick and choose what you'd like to learn and none of it has to have any coherence. I also teach intro Women's studies courses and I'll have to say that even in a 'discipline' like WS, the issue of how to cover everything is still a problem and comes up on the Women's Studies list quite regularly. So, being a feminist and teaching Women's studies doesn't seem to make the issue go away. I'm merely getting at and building on precisely the issue Lisa raised early on: There are some basic social processes and issues that define a field of study. If you truly want to teach about social inequalities in the context of a course, how do you balance both, if you want to give more than a cursory examination of how these social inequalities work. In a ten week term, assuming that one's pedagogy is as devoted to process as it is to content, how is it possible to cover it all? In my experience, getting students to the point where they really understand the issues and debates surrounding a particular social inequality takes a good solid 2 weeks, probably more. >The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last >"invisible" minority. Curious about who you'd say were previous invisible minorities? From kcwalker@syr.edu Thu Mar 5 04:17:40 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 06:17:19 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) In-Reply-To: At 12:52 PM 3/4/98 -0600, you wrote: >Kelley, > >Why do you almost always refer to the discussion of homosexuality as queer >content? Is this how you make reference to an alternative lifestyle in >your classes? The reference comes across as derogatory and I can only >imagine how you might approach this topic in your classes. Are you a >sociologist? > >Just Wondering, > > This post was sent to me off list. I'm replying on list, leaving the sender unidentified. I wouldn't normally do this, but this post contains an important query and gets to the heart of the this issue at hand: is is appropriate to define "sociologist" and "sociology" as having a certain political, ideological takes on issues of inequality. My response to this query about whether being a sociologist means that one must take a certain approach to social inequality is this: I think we can all agree that, while many sociologists might argue that capitalism is a source of class oppression and class exploitation, not every sociologist would necessarily agree that they are opposed to capitalism or that they must teach students to be opposed to capitalism. So, if you would agree that it is possible to be a sociologist without being opposed to a major form of social inequality (capitalism), then why is it the case that one cannot possibly be a sociologist if one isn't opposed to ending other forms of social inequality. What is the difference? Yes, that's something of a rhetorical question. I'm not in any way suggesting that I'm not also opposed to and don't also hope to teach my students to be opposed to systems of gender, sexual, racial, and ethnic inequality. I am. I am simply asking why this lacuna? Why this demand placed on sociology as being fundamentally about political positions toward gender, race, ethnicity, and sexuality--and not on class inequality? Just Wondering too. Kelley Kelley Crouse Department of Sociology 323 Alumni Hall Colgate University Hamilton, NY 13346 From alexiusp@yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 04:24:38 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:25:10 -0800 (PST) From: Alexius Pereira Subject: Re: PhDs in the UK To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Hello Rachel I am currently doing a PhD in Sociology at the London School of Economics. I cannot speak for U. of Greenwich, but I can tell you about the PhD at LSE. It is basically a "research" degree, whereby you get your Doctorate entirely based upon your 100,000 word dissertation. You have a max. of 6 years to do it, but most get it done in 4. PhD students all enrol as a MPhil in September, and for a year, you have to really focus in on your dissertation topic. At the end of the first year in June, you submit a detailed proposal of your research dissertation. If that is okayed by the teaching panel, you "progress" to your second year. By the beginning of your second year (using the summer vacation!!!) you have to write a couple of actual chapters (knowing that they will be amended anyway!). If the panel thinks that's ok, you get upgraded to the PhD status. You then normally do fieldwork at that stage. You return to complete writing the dissertation. You then submit it, go through a viva (oral interview-defence)...and if you survive that, you get a PhD. That's the degree, but along the way, you get training. You are assigned at least 1 supervisor, whom you meet regularly. At LSE, students HAVE to attend 3 fixed classes--one on the dissertaion, one on methodology, and one other (usually related to the research). They are non-examinable, but useful. Also, you are ENCOURAGED to attend classes held for the Master of Science in Sociology, grad seminars in a wide range of topics. You can also participate in seminars and classes in any other dept. or discipline. Again, non-examinable (but you can take an exam if you want, to get a grade to show future employers.) I can give you plenty of info about a few PhD programs in the UK (Warwick, Essex, Cambridge), but not Greenwich. So mail me if you like. Hope this helps. Regards Alex alexiusp@yahoo.com ---rachel laura goldstein wrote: > > Hi, everyone. I was wondering if there was anyone on this list who is > (or knows someone who is) studying at the University of Greenwich in > London who could tell me more about programs there, etc. Also, if there > is anyone who is studying or has studied in the UK who could fill me in > on how PhDs programs in general tend to work there in comparison to the > US, please let me know. > > Thanks in advance for your help! > > Rachel > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Rachel L. Goldstein > Department of Sociology > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > 326 Lincoln Hall, MC-454 > 702 S. Wright Street > Urbana, IL 61801 > 217 - 333 - 1950 > rlgoldst@uiuc.edu > > "Life is change. Growth is optional." > > -- Karen Kaiser Clark > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Mar 5 08:05:40 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 09:54:57 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: social class exercise To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Some of them got it -- but I teach at a "regional" campus of the University of Connecticut which basically exists out of structural inertia more than dedicated planning and resources. Hence, almost all of the students are there for financial reasons, and some because they would be academic risks at the main campus. One thing positive which did come out of the exercise there was the notion that a main reason why the current sports draft system exists in pro sports is because the owners who govern the system wish it to exist (how many 125-82 basketball scores can one endure) -- closer games will get better attendance than blow-outs -- of course, in the broader society it is the other way around. From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Mar 5 08:07:42 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:06:12 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: 1998 Southern [US] Demographic Assoc. mtg. (fwd) FYI-Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: Carl Schmertmann To: demographic-list@postbox.anu.edu.au Subject: 1998 Southern [US] Demographic Assoc. mtg. CALL FOR PAPERS AND PROPOSALS 1998 Southern Demographic Association Annual Meeting Annapolis, Maryland October 29-31, 1998 (Thursday through Saturday) This year's annual meeting of the Southern Demographic Association (SDA) will be held in Annapolis, Maryland, October 29-31, at the Calvert House (one of the Historic Inns of Annapolis). SDA invites submissions from all interested individuals on demographic topics. We encourage paper submissions as well as proposals from individuals to organize sessions, roundtables, software demonstrations, panel discussions, or workshops. SDA welcomes graduate student participation. Students can submit a paper, present that paper and request that the paper be considered for the Student Paper Award, which honors the best paper presented at the meeting and pays $100. Students who wish to be considered for the award should submit an abstract by the June 1 deadline, and forward the paper by August 15. The deadline for submitting program ideas and paper abstracts is June 1. Please send your ideas and submissions to: Louis Pol College of Business Administration University of Nebraska at Omaha Omaha,NE 68182 Phone: 402-554-2596 Email: Lpol@cbafaculty.unomaha.edu Fax: 402-554-3747 From jvnix@dixie-net.com Thu Mar 5 10:01:54 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:00:29 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Kelley Crouse wrote: > > At 12:52 PM 3/4/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Kelley, > > > >Why do you almost always refer to the discussion of homosexuality as queer > >content? Is this how you make reference to an alternative lifestyle in > >your classes? The reference comes across as derogatory and I can only > >imagine how you might approach this topic in your classes. Are you a > >sociologist? > > > >Just Wondering, > > > > > This post was sent to me off list. I'm replying on list, leaving the > sender unidentified. I wouldn't normally do this, but this post contains > an important query and gets to the heart of the this issue at hand: is is > appropriate to define "sociologist" and "sociology" as having a certain > political, ideological takes on issues of inequality. > > My response to this query about whether being a sociologist means that one > must take a certain approach to social inequality is this: I think we can > all agree that, while many sociologists might argue that capitalism is a > source of class oppression and class exploitation, not every sociologist > would necessarily agree that they are opposed to capitalism or that they > must teach students to be opposed to capitalism. So, if you would agree > that it is possible to be a sociologist without being opposed to a major > form of social inequality (capitalism), then why is it the case that one > cannot possibly be a sociologist if one isn't opposed to ending other forms > of social inequality. What is the difference? Yes, that's something of a > rhetorical question. > > I'm not in any way suggesting that I'm not also opposed to and don't also > hope to teach my students to be opposed to systems of gender, sexual, > racial, and ethnic inequality. I am. I am simply asking why this lacuna? > Why this demand placed on sociology as being fundamentally about political > positions toward gender, race, ethnicity, and sexuality--and not on class > inequality? > > Just Wondering too. > > Kelley > > Kelley Crouse > Department of Sociology > 323 Alumni Hall > Colgate University > Hamilton, NY 13346 This is interesting. Two of my uncle's are homosexual. One is married to his soulmate, they just celebrated their 15th anniversary. They refer to themselves as 'queer' and any issues about rights, treatment, etc. are addressed as 'queer' issues. At first I was surprised that they would use such a term for themselves, since I equated it with racist terms like 'jap' or 'nigger'. To me, the difference is that 'queer' is a sort of a prideful (to self) term. Maybe not all L/G folks would see it that way. I do though, realize that Japanese and Blacks are offended at the other two terms, understandably so. I am slowly becoming interested in G/L issues. I have received numerous emails asking me why G/L as categories were left off my web survey on social distance. I have to say, I simply had no exposure to the scholarly study of these groups. just rambling, -- Vincent Nix or... BlackMage Dragon -==(UDIC)==- Greet Team ---FOSTI--- http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm and fill out my survey :-) temper is the quality that in times of stress brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... -author unknown but admired Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------- From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Thu Mar 5 10:08:46 1998 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 09:04:07 -0800 From: Christian Harlow To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) > > >The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last > >"invisible" minority. > > Curious about who you'd say were previous invisible minorities? Social class and sexual orientation are definetly the "invisible variables" determining social reality. Sure there are sometimes signifiers of both, but these are more often then not very unreliable indicators (actually, usually stereotypes) . It should be fairly obvious as to who the invisible minorities based on this....BTW I am very curious how one could possibly have a class on the family without discussing the norms that guide its reproduction, maintenance, and change as an institution through time; a discussion of the family lacking a thourough analysis of the hegemonic normative structure of heterosexuality (which by its very nature is a discussion of alternative sexualities) would be a very poor class, on a purely substantive level. best, Christian From svlad@cehs.siu.edu Thu Mar 5 10:31:06 1998 From: Shawn Vlad To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: The real meaning of Ph.d Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:35:13 -0600 This is for Glen and Nogod1 Ph.d= Post Hole Digger Ph.d= Post Human Dump Ph.d= Piled Higher and Deeper Ph.d= Pizza Hut Delivery From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Thu Mar 5 13:08:39 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:06:22 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re: The real meaning of Ph.d At 11:35 AM 3/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >This is for Glen and Nogod1 >Ph.d= Post Hole Digger >Ph.d= Post Human Dump >Ph.d= Piled Higher and Deeper >Ph.d= Pizza Hut Delivery Perhaps with a bleaker fate: "Please Hand me a Dollar" Pan-Handling Desperato From lvf4m@server1.mail.virginia.edu Thu Mar 5 13:21:27 1998 From: Lisa Friel Sender: lvf4m@server1.mail.virginia.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:21:23 -0500 (EST) I think the bigger issue in this question is not answered with the use of 'queer' as a matter of signifying pride. While some blacks may call each other nigger as sign of group identification, sociologists don't refer to ethnic groups by such labels. So, queer studies is so called to differerentiate the theory and content of such study from more traditional studies of homosexuality. Queer theory is a particular theoretical perspective - similar to feminist theory. See Steve Seidman's _Queer Theory/Sociology_ if you want more on this..... Lisa Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:00:29 -0600 BlackMage Dragon wrote: > Kelley Crouse wrote: > > > > At 12:52 PM 3/4/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Kelley, > > > > > >Why do you almost always refer to the discussion of homosexuality as queer > > >content? Is this how you make reference to an alternative lifestyle in > > >your classes? The reference comes across as derogatory and I can only > > >imagine how you might approach this topic in your classes. Are you a > > >sociologist? > > > > > >Just Wondering, > > > > > > > > This post was sent to me off list. I'm replying on list, leaving the > > sender unidentified. I wouldn't normally do this, but this post contains > > an important query and gets to the heart of the this issue at hand: is is > > appropriate to define "sociologist" and "sociology" as having a certain > > political, ideological takes on issues of inequality. > > > > My response to this query about whether being a sociologist means that one > > must take a certain approach to social inequality is this: I think we can > > all agree that, while many sociologists might argue that capitalism is a > > source of class oppression and class exploitation, not every sociologist > > would necessarily agree that they are opposed to capitalism or that they > > must teach students to be opposed to capitalism. So, if you would agree > > that it is possible to be a sociologist without being opposed to a major > > form of social inequality (capitalism), then why is it the case that one > > cannot possibly be a sociologist if one isn't opposed to ending other forms > > of social inequality. What is the difference? Yes, that's something of a > > rhetorical question. > > > > I'm not in any way suggesting that I'm not also opposed to and don't also > > hope to teach my students to be opposed to systems of gender, sexual, > > racial, and ethnic inequality. I am. I am simply asking why this lacuna? > > Why this demand placed on sociology as being fundamentally about political > > positions toward gender, race, ethnicity, and sexuality--and not on class > > inequality? > > > > Just Wondering too. > > > > Kelley > > > > Kelley Crouse > > Department of Sociology > > 323 Alumni Hall > > Colgate University > > Hamilton, NY 13346 > > This is interesting. Two of my uncle's are homosexual. One is married > to his soulmate, they just celebrated their 15th anniversary. They > refer to themselves as 'queer' and any issues about rights, treatment, > etc. are addressed as 'queer' issues. At first I was surprised that > they would use such a term for themselves, since I equated it with > racist terms like 'jap' or 'nigger'. > > To me, the difference is that 'queer' is a sort of a prideful (to self) > term. Maybe not all L/G folks would see it that way. I do though, > realize that Japanese and Blacks are offended at the other two terms, > understandably so. > > I am slowly becoming interested in G/L issues. I have received numerous > emails asking me why G/L as categories were left off my web survey on > social distance. I have to say, I simply had no exposure to the > scholarly study of these groups. > > just rambling, > > -- > > > Vincent Nix > > or... > > BlackMage Dragon > -==(UDIC)==- > Greet Team > > ---FOSTI--- > > http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix > > if you have time, go to http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm > and fill out my survey :-) > > temper is the quality that in times of stress > brings out the best in metals and the worst in man... > -author unknown but admired > Know the masculine. > Keep to the feminine. > Be like a stream in the world. > > -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu > -------------- > d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ > uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 > -------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa Friel Graduate Student, Teaching Assistant Univ. of Virginia, Dept. of Sociology ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From poon@skyway.usask.ca Thu Mar 5 14:28:43 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:28:39 -0600 (CST) From: nancy Subject: Re: The real meaning of Ph.d In-reply-to: To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International another one Ph.D. = permanent head damage On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Shawn Vlad wrote: > This is for Glen and Nogod1 > Ph.d= Post Hole Digger > Ph.d= Post Human Dump > Ph.d= Piled Higher and Deeper > Ph.d= Pizza Hut Delivery > > > From rb6553a@american.edu Thu Mar 5 15:52:58 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:53:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Kansas I disagree that we "reduce" gays and lesbians if we deal with their sexual orientation only. Sexuality alone IS a valid sociological criteria, and has social/cultural meaning. Similarly, I don't believe that we "reduce" people to their race (and ignore all common human interests/values/characteristics) simply because we recognize that the social construction of "race" has important consequences. Sexuality is just one more category along which society is stratified. Once again, I am seeing issues of sexuality in sociology being dealt with as if they had no counterparts. Robert A. Brooks The American University From rb6553a@american.edu Thu Mar 5 15:57:16 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:57:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Kelly: You wondered ask I'd think were previous "invisible minorities" in Sociology. A start: Women, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians . . . . Robert A. Brooks From rb6553a@american.edu Thu Mar 5 16:11:39 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:12:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Vincent: Thanks for your comments on Kelly's remarks about her private e-mailer asking her about the use of the word "queer." It appeared that Kelly did not understand the question as being about the use of the word (or perhaps I misunderstand it). There has been some controversy about the use of the word "queer" to refer to gays and lesbians. The argument in favor is that it is a gender-neutral word, so it less cumbersome and more unifiying to use than "lesbian and gay" or the reverse. Second, it amounts to a "taking back" of the word from those who used (use) it in a derogatory way. (Much as the symbol of the pink triangle was appropriated from the Nazis). Also, the word definitely serves to set apart gays and lesbians as "different." Many lesbians and gays feel that we ARE different from straights, and are proud of those differences. Those who object to the use of the word see it as derogatory. Many people have been hounded by others using that word, and find no benefit in "owning" it. There is now a thriving area called "queer studies" which includes many sociologists. I'm not familiar with most of the work, but it can be easily located in Sociofile with the search "queer studies." Robert A. Brooks The American University From kcwalker@syr.edu Thu Mar 5 16:29:29 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:29:08 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <852565BE.007ED05B.00@notes-gw.american.edu> I believe that you've all simply misunderstood my remarks. The question "are you a sociologist?" and, in effect, "how can sociology NOT deal with queer studies?" are questions that impugn the sociologist in question with regard to his or her approach to social inequalities. This is what the original posts implied: an incredulity that any course in sociology might not deal with queer issues. Translation: how can that course be 'good' sociology? Again, I ask: why is it that someone can be a sociologist and still support capitalism; but apparently one cannot be a sociologist if one doesn't challenge sexism, heterosexism, racism? From conroyt@bu.edu Thu Mar 5 16:32:42 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:32:11 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy Reply-To: thomas conroy To: "'Nogod1" Subject: Re: religion debate In-Reply-To: <19c73af.34fb8e49@aol.com> Dear Vincent, On Saturday, 2/28, you had written (and I quote): Are not "religion" and "disability" synonymous? Does not religion effectively "disable" a person, restrict free thought, strip away agency, oppress the masses, etc? Just curious..... Piously yours, Vincent Bruzzese ......................................................................... I than challenged this, writing (in part) "I also think that it is rather absurd to suggest that religion denies agency." To which you then replied: "Once again, I do not know where you are finding these claims which you so empathetically refute. Simply because it is stated that religion influences the ways individuals view the world, by no means implies that agency i stripped away turning us all slaves to structure....." You now appear to be backsliding away from a rather bold earlier claim. Yes of course religion influences the ways that individuals view the world. But so do many other things. While I am sure that you can produce a statistical correlation here and there between religious participation and a particular set of attitudes, that tells us very little about religion and its influences on beliefs and attitudes. It tells us little about the more general impact religion has had throughout human history, or even, throughout American history. It also tells us very little about other sorts of confounding factors which might shape both the specific forms of religiosity and the sorts of attitudes you refer to. I am also struck by another thing. You accuse me of being simplistic. Yet, I made reference to a bunch of real worldly examples (such as, the work of the church in Central America in the 1980s) which counter the notion that religion always sides with the oppressors, and I could certainly refer to various others. You, on the other hand, cite a statistical finding, accompanied by a lot of angry and sarcastic rhetoric. Let's just say that you haven't convinced me that religion is the great oppressor of humankind Yours, Tom From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Thu Mar 5 20:25:50 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:25:45 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <852565BE.007ED05B.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Whether one prefers the word "queer" or the words "gay and lesbian," I think depends largely on whether one wants to emphasize "difference" or "relative similarity." The word "queer" emphasizes difference and is derogatory when employed by homophobes, the religious right etc. to indicate that gays and lesbians are "different" and therefore "deviant." It is affirmative when used by academics and activists to celebrate difference from an oppressive, puritanical,etc. mainstream culture. Whether used to attack or to celebrate gay and lesbian culture, the use of the word "queer" is FORMALLY similar in that it emphasizes categorical DIFFERENCE and opposition. Gay opponents of the word "queer" aren't just offended when homophobes use it though. They don't want gays using it either. Opponents of the word claim that being gay doesn't necessarily mean "significant difference" from heterosexuals in domains other than sexuality and they dislike the connotation that same-sex relations somehow puts them in an oppositional category. Gay and Lesbian Republicans, Connell's "Very Straight Gays," Suburban Middle-Class Monogamous Couples, and the like may feel that "Gay Left Activists" are presenting a radical, oppositional image of gays and lesbians that doesn't speak to their reality as "mainstream Americans....who happen to be gay." The same debate rages in any oppressed minority category. Does one emphasize difference whether "essential" or "produced through oppression" or does one emphasize the commonality of humanity and emphasize similarity. These debates within minority categories can get quite heated, and they show that what we think of as "coherent unified social catgeories" or "communities" are not. For instance, many self-defined suburban "work-a-day gays" or "Regular Joe gay" men that I've interviewed in my dissertation research resent the use of the term "queer" by what they refer to as "a bunch of noisy radicals and academics without real jobs" [an informants words] to present an image of gay culture as "oppositional" and "different," when they don't consider themselves oppositional. By contrast, queer-identified men and women may resent these types for not being more active in the political struggle for g/l/q rights. I tend to use the word queer when talking about queer-identified activists and academics and the words "gay" or "lesbian" when talking about people outside of these circles. As best as I can tell the word "queer" [as an affirmation] is only popular among activists and academics, so I don't like to impose their definition upon non-academics and non-activists who dislike the term. One can find similar disputes over labels in other marked identity categories as well. A real challenge for sociologists is to look at how race, sexual orientation, gender, class, etc. structure social life and social relations without making the "marked categories" appear "monolithic and unified" in their relationship or opposition to mainstream society. I get a sense that because we are committed to progressive social change and liberation that sociologists often make the mistake of overrepresenting "liberationist activists" as the representatives of minority categories. Is a gay Republican "queer" if he doesn't define himself as "queer?" Wayne Brekhus Rutgers P.S. I also recommend Queer Theory/Sociology by Seidman, for those interested in the theoretical contributions of queer theory to sociology. For an example of "anti-difference" gay writings see Bruce Bawer's A Place at the Table, and see Beyond Queer: Challenging Gay Left Orthodoxy edited by Bawer. From Nogod1@aol.com Thu Mar 5 20:55:00 1998 by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GEHTa14707 From: Nogod1 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:54:37 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: religion debate In a message dated 98-03-05 18:37:29 EST, you write: > Let's just say that you haven't convinced me that religion is the great > oppressor of humankind > > Yours, > > Tom Tom, Now I am usually a shy person, but I just had to respond to your email. I had no intention of convincing you of anything at all. If you do not want to believe that religion is the "great oppressor" of mankind, that is fine with me. However, your claim that a 'statistical correlation here and there' tells us nothing about how religion affects one's attitudes and behavior, is humorous. Pray tell Tom, what would you do? Since using those unreliable quantatative methods only lead us further away from the truth, there must be something we archaic academics out here can do. Let me tell you something Tom, religion not only affects an individuals beliefs and attitudes but does so in an extreme and direct fashion, which can be measured. The judgement that you bring to those effects are of course you own. In dismay over the current state of social science, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY StonyBrook From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Mar 5 21:26:12 1998 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 23:20:42 EST From: danielle Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <852565BE.007ED05B.00@notes-gw.american.edu> To add one more voice to the "queer" debate... One of the *other* reasons many people object to the use of the word and to the field of queer studies in general is that it is an ambiguous term. Some even call themselves "queer straights" -- those people who tend more to the heterosexual end of the spectrum but are sympathetic (perhaps empathetic) to the desires and lifestyles of homosexuals. The inability (and often lack of desire) to clearly define the terms of debate bothers many people. We sociologists like our concepts to be clearly defined, operationalizable, and measurable... I personally like the idea of queer partly because it IS so ambiguous; in a world that tries to hard to catergorize us all, put us into little boxes, it is nice to have something obviously debatable. And then there is the fact that many queer theorists lean in the direction of postmodernism..... oh, my!! I'm sure Wayne and Dan R will have something to say back to this!! :) Danielle at UConn From conroyt@bu.edu Fri Mar 6 10:40:31 1998 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:27 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy Reply-To: thomas conroy To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: religion debate In-Reply-To: <1080aca7.34ff7382@aol.com> On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Nogod1 wrote: > Tom, > > Now I am usually a shy person, but I just had to respond to your email. I had > no intention of convincing you of anything at all. If you do not want to > believe that religion is the "great oppressor" of mankind, that is fine with > me. Dear Vincent, I'm a bit curious as to why you don't see yourself as wanting to convince me of your position. Aren't debates a matter of presenting convincing arguments? I am open minded, believe it or not, and ready to be convinced by good arguments. It wasn't me who started out this discussion with blanket generalizations, i.e., all religion is oppressive. I'm ready to be convinced of this, but so far I have not been. > However, your claim that a 'statistical correlation here and there' tells > us nothing about how religion affects one's attitudes and behavior, is > humorous. Humorous to you, perhaps. Anyway, that is not exactly what I said. What I did say was that it tells us very little. I stand by this claim. What little it may tell us is that religion, along with an indefinite number of other experiences, can affect attitudes. I'd add, also, that measuring attitudes is not exactly a hard science, since the nature of attitudes is not very well conceptualized or understood. For instance, some attitudes are relatively long lasting, others are temporary, some are learned from specific sources, and others from a composite of sources.Do we really understand the complex relations among short term attitudes, long term attitudes, social situations and social ties? There are also all sorts of methodological problems with attitude "measures." What you believe that you are straight forwardly measuring is, in part, an artifact of your measuring device, and this, no doubt reflects what you want it to reflect - namely, that there are two Or perhaps more) measurable types of persons (e.g., the religious and the non-religious) and that person types correspond with distinct attitude types. But what about persons who fall somewhere between the ideal types? How do you account for their attitudes and motives? Are you really going to split the differences by quantifying them? > Pray tell Tom, what would you do? I'd certainly avoid starting out trying to objectively study something when I have such clear biases against it. > Since using those unreliable quantatative methods only lead us further > away from the truth, Yes, they sure can. > there must be something we archaic academics out here can do. Yes, we can take Weber's advice and try to be more understanding of how social reality works. Or, we can follow Garfinkel and treat the facticity of social order as social members' accomplishments. Or, we can follow lots of other gurus toward better understanding of the ways of the social world. >Let me tell you something Tom, religion not only affects an individuals beliefs and attitudes Sure, but "affect" can mean many many different things. The question is: how? And in what sorts of contexts? > but does so in an extreme and direct fashion, Always? >which can be measured. Which? Attitudes, or their acquisition? If attitudes, how can you be certain that they universally arise from the same source? If their acquisition, then are you talking in terms of general comparisons ( which tell us little about the exact ways in which this gets accomplished)? Or, is there some universal mechanism? (and if the latter is true, then we are back to the problem of agency, for which you seem to go back and forth. > The judgement that you bring to those effects are of course you own. > And that is because I am not yet convinced that there is much, if anything, to these "effects." Tom From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Fri Mar 6 10:45:59 1998 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:41:34 -0800 From: Christian Harlow To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: [Fwd: PEWs conference at Northwestern Univ.] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E245C2136CD56E372DBD2F58 It has recently been asserted by a certain individual on this list that World-Systems analyis is no longer a vibrant field. Letting the field speak for itself, I offer the agenda to the upcoming PEWS (Political Economy of the World-System) conference on geopolitics for those who might wish to attend, request papers, etc...It should be quite obvious, from the caliber of scholars (Randall Collins, Giovanni Arrighi, Charles Ragin, Daniel Chirot etc...) attending and the issues being taken up, that World Systems theory is still perhaps the most powerful tool for understanding the trajectory of our current historical situation. The upcoming ISA meetings also feature several sessions which should be quite interesting and useful for those scholars with a Marxist/political-economic bent to their studies. If anyone is interested I can also forward some of that agenda to you, I spare the whole list because it is quite a large file. Best, Christian --------------E245C2136CD56E372DBD2F58 X-arrival-time: 889043739 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:17:07 -0500 Reply-To: chriscd@jhu.edu Sender: owner-wsn@csf.colorado.edu From: christopher chase-dunn To: WORLD SYSTEMS NETWORK Subject: PEWs conference at Northwestern Univ. From: Georgi M. Derluguian Assistant Professor Department of Sociology Northwestern University 1812 Chicago Avenue Evanston, Illinois 60208-1330 (847) 491-2741 (rabota) gderlug@nwu.edu the annual PEWS conference will meet at Northwestern University March 21-23, 1998. THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF THE WORLD-SYSTEM (PEWS) XXII ANNUAL CONFERENCE, HOSTED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIOLOGY AND THE CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL AND COMPARATIVE STUDIES, NORTHWESTERN UNIVRSITY THE SHIFTING GEOPOLITICS OF THE MODERN WORLD-SYSTEM (Preliminary schedule) March 21, Saturday Arrival of the participants. Hotels: Omni Orrington, Janet's Place (both in downtown Evanston) March 22, Sunday Scott Hall (Political Science department, Northwestern Evanston campus) 14:00 Opening remarks 14:15 Keynote speaker: Stephen Gill 15:15 Coffee break 15:30 HEGEMONY AND THE CORE TRIAD: GEOPOLITICS IN THE EARLY 21st CENTURY Michael Loriaux (Northwestern, Political Science). International Morality Norms Burçu Bostanoglu (Bilkent and Gazi University, Ankara) Hegemony: thinking about competition and collusion in tandem Adam Webb (Princeton, Pol Sci) Timeless Clashes: A Value-Bloc Analysis of Hegemony and Systemic Evolution Discussant: Immanuel Wallerstein (SUNY-Binghamton, Fernand Braudel Center) 17:00 Break 17:15 WORLD WARS, WORLD PEACE, WORLD-EMPIRE? THE DEBATE Randall Collins (University of Pennsylvania, Socioogy) Geopolitical Theory and the World-System Giovanni Arrighi & Thomas Ehrlich Reifer (SUNY-Binghamton, Sociology) "Geopolitics and High Finance: Does World Power Still Come Out of the Barrel of the Gun?" Walter Goldfrank (UC-Santa Cruz, SociologyNew Hegemon Produced by New World War? (provisional title) Daniel Chirot (Univ. of Washington, Sociology) "Why must there be a last cycle? Capitalism's enduring power of adaptation, and what might destroy it." Discussant: Bruce Cumings 19:30 DINNER (Szechwan Palace, 1629 Chicago Ave. Evanston; walking from campus) March 23 Monday Harris Hall 108 (History Department, Northwestern Evanston campus) 9:30 REFORMULATED SEMI-PERIPHERIES Xianming Chen (University of Illinois at Chicago) The Geoeconomic Reconfiguration of the State: The New Transborder Subregions of the Asia-Pacific Georgi Derluguian (Northwestern, Sociology) Russia: The Sick Bully of Eurasia? Trajectory of a protection costs monopoly, 1550-2000. Isabella Alcaniz (Northwestern, Political Science) Slipping into Something More Comfortable: The Argentine-Brazilian Nuclear Integration and the MERCOSUR Discussant: Meredith Woo-Cumings 11:00 - break 11:15 PERIPHERIES AND MARGINS IN THE PERIOD OF GLOBALIZATION Scott Greer (Northwestern, Pol Sci) Mutual Benefit? African Elites and French African Policy Steven Sherman (SUNY-Binghamton, Sociology) The Clash of Civilizations and Multiculturalism Charles Ragin and Bernie Beck (Northwestern, Sociology) The global middle classes and radical localisms in Barber's Jihad versus the MacWorld Discussant: Randall Collins 12:45-13:45 LUNCH 14:00 KEYNOTE SPEAKER: Arif Dirlik (Duke, History) 15:00 - break 15:15 RESOURCES AND COMPETITION IN THE WORLD-ECONOMY Michael Sacks, Brian Uzzi and Marc Ventresca (Northwestern, Organization Behavior/Sociology) Stateness and System in the Global Structure of Trade: A Network Approach to Assessing Nation Status, 1965-1980. Bruce Podobnik (Johns Hopkins, Sociology) Geopolitical Competition and Global Energy Industries in World-Historical Perspective. Deniz Yenal (SUNY-Binghamton, Sociology) The Emergence of an Informal Trade Network between Turkey and Russia in the Wake of the Soviet Collapse. Discussant: Michael Wallerstein (Northwestern, Political Science) 16:45 - break 17:00 ANTI-SYSTEMIC MOVEMENTS Tom Hall (DePauw, Sociology) Resistance to Culturicide: Processes of continuing Incorporation of Indigenous Peoples into the Modern World-System Galip Isen (Head of the Deptartment of International Relations, International American University, Kyrenia, North Cyprus) The Weapon of the Weak: Hegemony, World Peace and Terrorism in the 'World-Wide War'. Jean Rossiaud (Switzerland) The emergence of a world-side citizenship movement (L'émergence d'un movement de citoyens à l'échelle mondiale.) Discussant: Bill Martin (University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, Sociology) 18:30 FINAL SESSION 20:00 DINNER at the Korean restaurant TUESDAY, MARCH 24, at 16:00 (an event unrelated to PEWS XXII) Immanuel Wallerstein, Director, Fernand Braudel Center for the Study of Economies, Historical Systems, and Civilizations (Binghamton University) Open Social Science. Considerations on the Gulbenkian Committee Report. Public Lecture Harris Hall 108 (History Department, Northwestern Evanston campus) --------------E245C2136CD56E372DBD2F58-- From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Mar 6 11:03:21 1998 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 98 12:55:53 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: A new Ezine: Academic workplace To: grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:43:29 -0800 From: Anthony Rosati Subject: A New E-zine: workplace To: nagps-official@nagps.org FYI, NAGPS is web-hosting this excellent new electronic magazine! [ That means, the GSC of MLA runs and operates it, but we provide the web space for it. ] Check it out! PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY TO ACADEMIC LISTS *N*O*W *A*V*A*I*L*A*B*L*E (free free free) www.workplace-gsc.com a WEBsite+ an electronic JOURNAL+ a place to get DATES W~O~R~K~P~L~A~C~E a _peer-reviewed_ journal addressing the political historical and aesthetic conditions of a/c/a/d/e/m/i/c l/a/b/o/r in north america *brought to you by the graduate.student.caucus an allied organization of the modern.language.assocation www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com Workplace 1.1 ( Feb. 1998) www.workplace-gsc.com www. workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com Foreword by Marc Bousquet: "The degree holder is the waste product of a job system that produces Ph.D holders but does not use them. In language and literature more than any other field the teaching machine runs on non-degreed labor. . . ." F^E^A^T^U^R^E^S "What Hath English Wrought" by Cary Nelson: "The astonished gaze that MLA casts on recent history suggests the windswept visage of a profession no longer in control of its fate. Eyes bulging, the figure is nearly swept away by forces it cannot comprehend. In stark terror at their oncoming fury, it dares not turn to glance at their destination. . . ." "This Old House: Renovating CUNY's House of Labor" by Barbara Bowen "The Future of an Illusion" by Christian Gregory "Unionizing Against Cutbacks" by Paul Lauter "What is an Organization like the MLA?" by Steve Watt "Resistance is Fruitful: Coalition-building in Ontario" by Victoria Smallman www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com I^N^T^E^R^V^I^E^W "Jobless Higher Ed: An interview with Stanley Aronowitz" by Andrew Long www.workplace-gsc.com www. workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com F^O^R^U^M !~! Organizing Our Asses Off !~! "Cannibals, Star Trek, and Egg-timers" by Anthony M. Navarrette and Kate Burns, UCSD "Unions, Universities, and the State of Texas" by Kirsten Christensen and Ray Watkins, UT-Austin "5,000 Down, 200,000 to Go: Organizing City University of New York" by Eric Marshall, CUNY "Critical Year" by Ed Fox and Curtis Anderson, Indiana U. "What's Next? Organizing After the COGS Union Affiliation Vote" by Julie Schmid, U. Iowa "Institutional Memory and Changing Membership" A Response by Alan Kalish, Indiana U. "Beyond the Campus Gates: The Personal is Still Political" A Response by Vinny Tirelli, City U. New York "Organizing Democracy:" A Response by Karen Thompson, Rutgers U. www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com C^O^N^V^E^N^T^I^O^N R^E^P^O^R^T^S MLA Annual Convention, Toronto, Canada, December 1997 by Mark Kelley, CUNY Graduate School 6th National GTA Conference, Minneapolis, November 1997 by Alan Kalish, Indiana University www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com P^E^R^S^O^N^A^L C^R^I^T^I^C^I^S^M "Looking Forward In Anger" by Barbara White "The Good Professors of Szechuan" by Gregory Myerson: "Until last spring, I was assistant professor of critical theory at UNCG. I didn't get tenure. Now I'm unemployed and competing with my students for one-year jobs around town. . . ." "Performing Shakespeare: Writing and Literacy on the Job" by Leo Parascondola: "I arranged to take the test for bus operator, and I began a 21-year odyssey in a public conveyance around the boroughs of Manhattan and the Bronx. . . ." www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com D^A^T^E^S Fight rationalization by filing a WORKPLACE personal ad (free) services available at the website discounted book purchases hot links to academic labor and student orgs. personals FREE FREE FREE classified listings FREE FREE FREE www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com Future Issues of _Workplace_: Oct '98 1:2 The Melodrama of Difference: The University in Tiers Issue Editor: Tony O'Brien, Queens College, CUNY. Feb '99 2:1 The Political is the Personal: Life Narratives of Academic Labor. Issue Editor: Cheryl Torsney, West Virginia University Oct '99 2:2 Academic Labor, Social Policy, and the Law. Issue Editor, Randy Martin, Pratt Institute Feb '00 3:1 Political Economy and Higher Ed. Pedagogies. Issue Editor: Wendy Hesford, Indiana University. Oct '00 3:2 New Hegemony Studies: Illiberalism and Academic Labor Issue Editor: Marc Bousquet www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com --and watch for a WORKPLACE SPECIAL COMING SOON: E*L*A*I*N*E W*A*T*C*H Showalter's War on Graduate Students From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Fri Mar 6 19:31:55 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:31:41 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: the state of world-systems To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu >It has recently been asserted by a certain individual on this list that >World-Systems analyis is no longer a vibrant field. Letting the field >speak for itself, I offer the agenda to the upcoming PEWS (Political >Economy of the World-System) conference on geopolitics for those who >might wish to attend, request papers, etc...It should be quite obvious, >from the caliber of scholars (Randall Collins, Giovanni Arrighi, Charles >Ragin, Daniel Chirot etc...) attending and the issues being taken up, >that World Systems theory is still perhaps the most powerful tool for >understanding the trajectory of our current historical situation. I think you're referring to something I said about world-systems. Essentially, my point is that world-systems hasn't come up with all that much new and exciting since the original breakthroughs 20-25 years ago. People continue to publish interesting things, but they get more and more into esoterica, and the sub-discipline has become marginalized, pushed to the edges of mainstream sociology. Part of the reason for this is the diminished funding for development studies since 1989, but much of it is because of the lack of new theoretical breakthroughs, and the withdrawal of many w-s researchers from practical empirical research. The empirical investigations that do get done are often aimed at testing some arcane theoretical question rather than addressing the social problems of development and underdevelopment and what to do about them. (I would add that Wally Goldfrank's Chile project at your school is one of the exceptions to this criticism.) Further, so much of the w-s folks' effort is wasted trying to demonstrate that capitalism is a bad, bad thing. I consider this unproductive. These problems show up in the conference material you posted. Several of the sessions are taken up with speculations about the future trajectory of the world-system. That's a fun intellectual game, but it's hard to take it very seriously. Much of the rest is rather loosely conceptualized culture studies (or is that redundant?). I only saw one session that seemed to delve into empirical development research. That's my negative take. My positive take is cognate with yours-- w-s theory is still a powerful conceptual tool for analyzing the trajectory of a world-system, if that's what you need to do. And there are some marvelously interesting people working in this realm, with some interesting ideas to share. What motivated me to make my original comment is my dismay at seeing my own department--which is small to begin with-- turning into a Binghamton South (by poaching their best man). While w-s is a perfectly respectable intellectual pursuit, I think that building a department around w-s is a good way to start it falling down the US News list of prestigious places. So from a purely instrumental motivation, I wish that would not happen here. From rb6553a@american.edu Fri Mar 6 22:29:54 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:30:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Supporting capitalism Kelley: You have created your own straw man in this case (as well as mixing apples and oranges, if you don't my mixed metaphor). No one (but you) has raised the issue of "supporting capitalism." Personally, I do not believe that sociologists, when teaching, SHOULD be supporting capitalism (or Marxism, or any other -isms). The job of the professor is not to proselytize. One does not "support" capitalism by introducing writers who support it; one does not "support" homosexuality by including authors who are writing from a gay or lesbian perspective. I'm really not sure where you're coming from here. Robert A. Brooks The American University From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Sat Mar 7 02:13:36 1998 From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:05:38 -0800 Dear Robert, You wrote "...rural sociology may not be a fertile ground for exploring "queer" issues..." What ever happened to the expression "we are everywhere"? Let me continue by saying that I agreed with your letter and this was only a small part of it and not really having to do with the main point. But, I was recently having a discussion with a friend about the gap between rural and urban and this reminded me of it. I think there is a real unrecognized difference between the thinking between "city folks" and those in "the country side". This may be on the level of other differences that we more commonly recognize (masculine/feminine, people of color/non people of color, etc.). The point I'm trying to make is that outside the cities there is a whole 'nother country. There may not be many "farm families" anymore but there are a lot of people living in very rural places. We have a very different view of the world and I'm sure we aren't all straight. I hope I haven't confused things too much by mixing two issues. Maybe I'm wrong not being much of an expert on "queer isues" but why wouldn't this be as much a part of rural soc as soc of families or soc of anything else? Don Ps. While I am concerned that city-centric thinking leads to the invisability of others I don't worry about it nearly as much as the issue you are trying to raise--the invisibility of gays and lesbians in sociology. Though a little thought on the prejudices around the backwardness and lack of sophistication of non-city people wouldn't hurt--have you not ever noticed that you can't help but think of those slow talking people with southern accents as a little stupid? or at least to be pitied for their lack of "sophistication" or "opportunities"? (especially if they are working class). Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I read my email but not every day.... ---------- > From: rb6553a@american.edu > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:13 AM > > Kelley Crouse wrote: > > "Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT > cover in order > to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something if, > as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to > the subject. So what do you give up?" > > While I do not quarrel with everything you have to say (a great deal of it > makes sense -- for instance, that Rural Sociology may not be a fertile > ground for exploring "queer" issues), I must point out the institutional > heterosexism of the above quote. Your statement assumes that one starts out > planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the > process displacing other "more important" material. This certainly is one > way to look at things, and is the very ideology used by (mostly) > well-intentioned academics for many years in excluding womens' studies, > multicultural coverage, etc. What I feel needs to be done is to stop this > mode of thinking. Instead, begin with a "blank slate" and ask: "What is > important and relevant to cover, and how can I do that in a fair, > comprehensive and inclusive way?" Beginning with a pre-programmed "agenda" > based on "what's always been done" and then trying to cram in "extra" > material is always going to result in the exclusion of > minority/less-powerful voices. > > Your other comment, that you teach Sociology of the Family without > mentioning "queer" issues and don't lose anything, is along similar > objectionable lines. You say that you cover issues which impact "all > families." This seems to me to be something of a cop out. While it is true > that some issues may impact all families (such as the threat of nuclear > war), there are few issues that affect all families in the same ways. I'll > bet that you cover racial/ethnic issues in that same course (if you don't, > you should), so your exclusion of "queer" families needs better > justification than you give. > > Your comment reminds me of a professor I had in a multicultural counseling > class, who responded to my question asking why Gays and Lesbians were not > included at all in the course by saying: "It's the same issues." As if > being a Lesbian has no unique component/history/experience. That's as > insulting as saying that issues that a Black and an Asian would bring to > counseling are identical. > > The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last > "invisible" minority. > > Robert A. Brooks > The American University > > > From lvf4m@server1.mail.virginia.edu Sat Mar 7 11:41:21 1998 From: Lisa Friel Sender: lvf4m@server1.mail.virginia.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Urban/rural Homosexuality Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:41:15 -0500 (EST) Don, You make an excellent point. The problem is that most *out* g/l/b/t are located in urban areas. The "sex survey" conducted by Laumann et al (1994) found a stong positive correlation between urbanization and homosexual desire and identity (strong for men and women, but stronger for men). Rates of homosexuality for men in urban centers are about 9% desire and 16% identity, compared to rates of about 3% and 8% respectively for _all_ men. They have an interesting discussion of this. It could be a matter of migration to more opportunistic/ liberal communites - this assumes though that homosexuality is at least partially independent from social context. To avoid that assumption, another explanation may be that more opportunities to explore self and sexuality exist in more urban areas which leads to more homosexuality (and more diversity in general?). Their most intersting point places the difference in rates of homosexuality by urbanization within the context of the debate over the "true" prevalence of homoesexuality. I am not aware of any research that investigates differences in g/l/b from more or less urban areas. Is anyone out there in the know? THis could be fertile ground for research. Don - Pray tell, how one earns a "q&D" and does it mean "queer and Dashing"? If it does I qualify :-) Happy Saturday, Lisa On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:05:38 -0800 Don Naylor wrote: > Dear Robert, You wrote "...rural sociology may not be a fertile ground for > exploring "queer" issues..." What ever happened to the expression "we > are everywhere"? > > Let me continue by saying that I agreed with your letter and this was only > a small part of it and not really having to do with the main point. But, I > was recently having a discussion with a friend about the gap between rural > and urban and this reminded me of it. I think there is a real unrecognized > difference between the thinking between "city folks" and those in "the > country side". This may be on the level of other differences that we more > commonly recognize (masculine/feminine, people of color/non people of > color, etc.). The point I'm trying to make is that outside the cities > there is a whole 'nother country. There may not be many "farm families" > anymore but there are a lot of people living in very rural places. We have > a very different view of the world and I'm sure we aren't all straight. I > hope I haven't confused things too much by mixing two issues. Maybe I'm > wrong not being much of an expert on "queer isues" but why wouldn't this be > as much a part of rural soc as soc of families or soc of anything else? > > Don > > Ps. While I am concerned that city-centric thinking leads to the > invisability of others I don't worry about it nearly as much as the issue > you are trying to raise--the invisibility of gays and lesbians in > sociology. Though a little thought on the prejudices around the > backwardness and lack of sophistication of non-city people wouldn't > hurt--have you not ever noticed that you can't help but think of those slow > talking people with southern accents as a little stupid? or at least to be > pitied for their lack of "sophistication" or "opportunities"? (especially > if they are working class). > > Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D > Department of Sociology > University of Southern California > Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 > > wrk. 213-740-3544 > hm. 213-748-7378 > fax 213-740-3535 > > dnaylor@usc.edu > > I read my email but not every day.... > > ---------- > > From: rb6553a@american.edu > > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > > > Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... > (fwd) > > Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:13 AM > > > > Kelley Crouse wrote: > > > > "Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT > > cover in order > > to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something > if, > > as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to > > the subject. So what do you give up?" > > > > While I do not quarrel with everything you have to say (a great deal of > it > > makes sense -- for instance, that Rural Sociology may not be a fertile > > ground for exploring "queer" issues), I must point out the institutional > > heterosexism of the above quote. Your statement assumes that one starts > out > > planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the > > process displacing other "more important" material. This certainly is one > > way to look at things, and is the very ideology used by (mostly) > > well-intentioned academics for many years in excluding womens' studies, > > multicultural coverage, etc. What I feel needs to be done is to stop this > > mode of thinking. Instead, begin with a "blank slate" and ask: "What is > > important and relevant to cover, and how can I do that in a fair, > > comprehensive and inclusive way?" Beginning with a pre-programmed > "agenda" > > based on "what's always been done" and then trying to cram in "extra" > > material is always going to result in the exclusion of > > minority/less-powerful voices. > > > > Your other comment, that you teach Sociology of the Family without > > mentioning "queer" issues and don't lose anything, is along similar > > objectionable lines. You say that you cover issues which impact "all > > families." This seems to me to be something of a cop out. While it is > true > > that some issues may impact all families (such as the threat of nuclear > > war), there are few issues that affect all families in the same ways. > I'll > > bet that you cover racial/ethnic issues in that same course (if you > don't, > > you should), so your exclusion of "queer" families needs better > > justification than you give. > > > > Your comment reminds me of a professor I had in a multicultural > counseling > > class, who responded to my question asking why Gays and Lesbians were not > > included at all in the course by saying: "It's the same issues." As if > > being a Lesbian has no unique component/history/experience. That's as > > insulting as saying that issues that a Black and an Asian would bring to > > counseling are identical. > > > > The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last > > "invisible" minority. > > > > Robert A. Brooks > > The American University > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa Friel Graduate Student, Teaching Assistant Univ. of Virginia, Dept. of Sociology ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Sat Mar 7 13:52:46 1998 Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 15:52:38 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Urban/rural Homosexuality In-Reply-To: Lisa and Don, I like the points you are raising here. I agree with Don's point that "urbanism" is a variable that doesn't get enough play in sociology. Claude Fischer argued back in 1975 that urbanism is a variable independent of other demographic variables, but most sociologists seem to have ignored that piece. The urban bias is perhaps even stronger within the sociology of homosexuality because we tend to go to the most visible communities like SF and NYC. Within the sociology of homosexuality there has been a tendency for researchers to generalize from SF and NYC samples as if they were representative of "the gay community" and "gay culture" in general. That's a *huge* selection bias! Imagine an ethnographic study of Manhattan heterosexual singles that went on to generalize from the study that "heterosexual culture is characterized by social and political activism, a cosmopolitan sensibility, and radical challenges to mainstream conventions." These sorts of generalizations have been made about gay (men) from such skewed geographic samples, however. I argue in my dissertation that much of what has been attributed to "gay culture" in the field of gay studies may actually be measuring the generic effects of Manhattanite and San Fransisco culture since most generalizations come from samples in those areas. At the very least no one has sorted out what percentage of the variance is explained by "Manhattan" and what percentage is explained by "gay." Getting at some of the difference between urban and non-urban g/l/b is, indeed, fertile ground for research. There is very little out there on rural lesbians and gay men or suburban g/l/b life. I'm writing a book/dissertation right now based on interviews with gay men in some suburbs an hour away from New York and even the one hour difference translates to very large cultural differences between NY gay culture and the area's suburban gay culture. Moreover many suburbanites don't have any particular desire to move to New York. Among the various reasons for not wanting to move there included "it's too crowded," "there is too much traffic," "it's full of crime," "it's unsafe," "it's dirty," "it's noisy," "it's expensive," "I don't like big cities," "the gay community is too flamboyant, I fit in better here" and one person even said "I wouldn't want to live in New York because there is too much diversity." You can imagine that some rural gays might even feel stronger about some of these things. The point here is that other factors besides sexual orientation matter in deciding where one chooses to live and that greater freedom for homosexuality must be weighed against one's other identity statuses. If one is a masculine, upper-middle class, socially conservative or moderate, white, male raised in suburbia one may find that these multiple statuses wash over one's gay status in determining where to live. Also there are many suburban and even some rural folks who are out but are still "invisible as gays" to most around them. A number of the men I've talked to say "I don't hide it, and I don't flaunt it. So everyone assumes I'm straight even though I'm not trying to pass." In fact, I interviewed one person who had a difficult time coming out to a close conservative friend because the friend continued to believe that he was simply pretending to come out as a form of homophobic humor. Thus the conservative friend laughed and punched him on the shoulders and continued to say "that's a good one!," assuming it was just a joke. The closest thing to the research Lisa suggests that I've seen are some anecdotal books about travelling across America to find the "hidden gay America" (Darrel Yates Rist and Neil Miller each have such books). Both found that gay and lesbian life tends to display the same range of diversity across regions as heterosexual life such that gay men in North Dakota might have more in common with other North Dakotans than with gays in SF etc. Wayne Brekhus Rutgers At 01:41 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >Don, > > You make an excellent point. The problem is that >most *out* g/l/b/t are located in urban areas. The "sex >survey" conducted by Laumann et al (1994) found a stong >positive correlation between urbanization and homosexual >desire and identity (strong for men and women, but stronger >for men). Rates of homosexuality for men in urban centers >are about 9% desire and 16% identity, compared to rates of >about 3% and 8% respectively for _all_ men. > > They have an interesting discussion of this. It >could be a matter of migration to more opportunistic/ >liberal communites - this assumes though that homosexuality >is at least partially independent from social context. To >avoid that assumption, another explanation may be that more >opportunities to explore self and sexuality exist in more >urban areas which leads to more homosexuality (and more >diversity in general?). Their most intersting point places >the difference in rates of homosexuality by urbanization >within the context of the debate over the "true" prevalence >of homoesexuality. > > I am not aware of any research that investigates >differences in g/l/b from more or less urban areas. Is >anyone out there in the know? THis could be fertile ground >for research. > >Don - Pray tell, how one earns a "q&D" and does it mean >"queer and Dashing"? If it does I qualify :-) > >Happy Saturday, > >Lisa > > >On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:05:38 -0800 Don Naylor > wrote: > > >> Dear Robert, You wrote "...rural sociology may not be a fertile ground for >> exploring "queer" issues..." What ever happened to the expression "we >> are everywhere"? >> >> Let me continue by saying that I agreed with your letter and this was only >> a small part of it and not really having to do with the main point. But, I >> was recently having a discussion with a friend about the gap between rural >> and urban and this reminded me of it. I think there is a real unrecognized >> difference between the thinking between "city folks" and those in "the >> country side". This may be on the level of other differences that we more >> commonly recognize (masculine/feminine, people of color/non people of >> color, etc.). The point I'm trying to make is that outside the cities >> there is a whole 'nother country. There may not be many "farm families" >> anymore but there are a lot of people living in very rural places. We have >> a very different view of the world and I'm sure we aren't all straight. I >> hope I haven't confused things too much by mixing two issues. Maybe I'm >> wrong not being much of an expert on "queer isues" but why wouldn't this be >> as much a part of rural soc as soc of families or soc of anything else? >> >> Don >> >> Ps. While I am concerned that city-centric thinking leads to the >> invisability of others I don't worry about it nearly as much as the issue >> you are trying to raise--the invisibility of gays and lesbians in >> sociology. Though a little thought on the prejudices around the >> backwardness and lack of sophistication of non-city people wouldn't >> hurt--have you not ever noticed that you can't help but think of those slow >> talking people with southern accents as a little stupid? or at least to be >> pitied for their lack of "sophistication" or "opportunities"? (especially >> if they are working class). >> >> Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D >> Department of Sociology >> University of Southern California >> Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 >> >> wrk. 213-740-3544 >> hm. 213-748-7378 >> fax 213-740-3535 >> >> dnaylor@usc.edu >> >> I read my email but not every day.... >> >> ---------- >> > From: rb6553a@american.edu >> > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >> >> > Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... >> (fwd) >> > Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:13 AM >> > >> > Kelley Crouse wrote: >> > >> > "Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT >> > cover in order >> > to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something >> if, >> > as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to >> > the subject. So what do you give up?" >> > >> > While I do not quarrel with everything you have to say (a great deal of >> it >> > makes sense -- for instance, that Rural Sociology may not be a fertile >> > ground for exploring "queer" issues), I must point out the institutional >> > heterosexism of the above quote. Your statement assumes that one starts >> out >> > planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the >> > process displacing other "more important" material. This certainly is one >> > way to look at things, and is the very ideology used by (mostly) >> > well-intentioned academics for many years in excluding womens' studies, >> > multicultural coverage, etc. What I feel needs to be done is to stop this >> > mode of thinking. Instead, begin with a "blank slate" and ask: "What is >> > important and relevant to cover, and how can I do that in a fair, >> > comprehensive and inclusive way?" Beginning with a pre-programmed >> "agenda" >> > based on "what's always been done" and then trying to cram in "extra" >> > material is always going to result in the exclusion of >> > minority/less-powerful voices. >> > >> > Your other comment, that you teach Sociology of the Family without >> > mentioning "queer" issues and don't lose anything, is along similar >> > objectionable lines. You say that you cover issues which impact "all >> > families." This seems to me to be something of a cop out. While it is >> true >> > that some issues may impact all families (such as the threat of nuclear >> > war), there are few issues that affect all families in the same ways. >> I'll >> > bet that you cover racial/ethnic issues in that same course (if you >> don't, >> > you should), so your exclusion of "queer" families needs better >> > justification than you give. >> > >> > Your comment reminds me of a professor I had in a multicultural >> counseling >> > class, who responded to my question asking why Gays and Lesbians were not >> > included at all in the course by saying: "It's the same issues." As if >> > being a Lesbian has no unique component/history/experience. That's as >> > insulting as saying that issues that a Black and an Asian would bring to >> > counseling are identical. >> > >> > The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last >> > "invisible" minority. >> > >> > Robert A. Brooks >> > The American University >> > >> > >> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Lisa Friel >Graduate Student, Teaching Assistant >Univ. of Virginia, Dept. of Sociology >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > From watterwo@sobek.Colorado.EDU Sat Mar 7 16:22:30 1998 Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:22:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:22:24 -0700 (MST) From: Jay Watterworth To: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Urban/rural Homosexuality In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980307155238.0081a9a0@email.rci.rutgers.edu> Wayne and et al, I am currently reading Georg Simmel's "The Metropolis and Mental Life" which, though written in 1903, clearly addresses some of the arguments you discuss here. The crux of Simmel's notion is that the forces in an urban environment cause individuals to adapt in much different ways than their counterparts in more rural societies. Simmel points out that the density of the urban evironment promotes an intellectual rationality as a means by which individuals can survive the crush of everyday life. This leads to insensitivity or a blase approach to experiences and others, but also to a more highly developed individuality and personal freedom of movement not found in a rural setting. "...so today in an intellectualized and refined sense the citizen of the metropolis is 'free' in contrast with the trivialities and prejudices which bind the small town person. The mutual reserve and indifference, and the intellectual conditions of life in large social units are never more sharply appreciated in their significance for the independence of the individual than in the dense crowds of the metropolis because the bodily closeness and lack of space make intellectual distance really perceivable for the first time." This seems to underline the Wayne's quote from the individual who found the "diversity" of life in NYC oppressive. Simmel also addresses the differences between the restrictions found in the rural community, the "incessant inner and external oppression of a de-individualizing small town." Wayne addressess the invisibility of rural gays who exist without "flaunting" their gayness, something I think Simmel's ideas would support. This essay is short, but I believe you might find in valuable in understanding the conditions you're discussing. Jay Watterworth On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, wayne brekhus wrote: > Lisa and Don, > > I like the points you are raising here. I agree with Don's point that > "urbanism" is a variable that doesn't get enough play in sociology. Claude > Fischer argued back in 1975 that urbanism is a variable independent of > other demographic variables, but most sociologists seem to have ignored > that piece. The urban bias is perhaps even stronger within the sociology > of homosexuality because we tend to go to the most visible communities like > SF and NYC. Within the sociology of homosexuality there has been a tendency > for researchers to generalize from SF and NYC samples as if they were > representative of "the gay community" and "gay culture" in general. That's > a *huge* selection bias! Imagine an ethnographic study of Manhattan > heterosexual singles that went on to generalize from the study that > "heterosexual culture is characterized by social and political activism, a > cosmopolitan sensibility, and radical challenges to mainstream > conventions." These sorts of generalizations have been made about gay (men) > from such skewed geographic samples, however. I argue in my dissertation > that much of what has been attributed to "gay culture" in the field of gay > studies may actually be measuring the generic effects of Manhattanite and > San Fransisco culture since most generalizations come from samples in those > areas. At the very least no one has sorted out what percentage of the > variance is explained by "Manhattan" and what percentage is explained by > "gay." > Getting at some of the difference between urban and non-urban g/l/b is, > indeed, fertile ground for research. There is very little out there on > rural lesbians and gay men or suburban g/l/b life. I'm writing a > book/dissertation right now based on interviews with gay men in some > suburbs an hour away from New York and even the one hour difference > translates to very large cultural differences between NY gay culture and > the area's suburban gay culture. Moreover many suburbanites don't have any > particular desire to move to New York. Among the various reasons for not > wanting to move there included "it's too crowded," "there is too much > traffic," "it's full of crime," "it's unsafe," "it's dirty," "it's noisy," > "it's expensive," "I don't like big cities," "the gay community is too > flamboyant, I fit in better here" and one person even said "I wouldn't want > to live in New York because there is too much diversity." You can imagine > that some rural gays might even feel stronger about some of these things. > The point here is that other factors besides sexual orientation matter in > deciding where one chooses to live and that greater freedom for > homosexuality must be weighed against one's other identity statuses. If > one is a masculine, upper-middle class, socially conservative or moderate, > white, male raised in suburbia one may find that these multiple statuses > wash over one's gay status in determining where to live. > Also there are many suburban and even some rural folks who are out but are > still "invisible as gays" to most around them. A number of the men I've > talked to say "I don't hide it, and I don't flaunt it. So everyone assumes > I'm straight even though I'm not trying to pass." In fact, I interviewed > one person who had a difficult time coming out to a close conservative > friend because the friend continued to believe that he was simply > pretending to come out as a form of homophobic humor. Thus the > conservative friend laughed and punched him on the shoulders and continued > to say "that's a good one!," assuming it was just a joke. > The closest thing to the research Lisa suggests that I've seen are some > anecdotal books about travelling across America to find the "hidden gay > America" (Darrel Yates Rist and Neil Miller each have such books). Both > found that gay and lesbian life tends to display the same range of > diversity across regions as heterosexual life such that gay men in North > Dakota might have more in common with other North Dakotans than with gays > in SF etc. > > Wayne Brekhus > Rutgers > > > At 01:41 PM 3/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Don, > > > > You make an excellent point. The problem is that > >most *out* g/l/b/t are located in urban areas. The "sex > >survey" conducted by Laumann et al (1994) found a stong > >positive correlation between urbanization and homosexual > >desire and identity (strong for men and women, but stronger > >for men). Rates of homosexuality for men in urban centers > >are about 9% desire and 16% identity, compared to rates of > >about 3% and 8% respectively for _all_ men. > > > > They have an interesting discussion of this. It > >could be a matter of migration to more opportunistic/ > >liberal communites - this assumes though that homosexuality > >is at least partially independent from social context. To > >avoid that assumption, another explanation may be that more > >opportunities to explore self and sexuality exist in more > >urban areas which leads to more homosexuality (and more > >diversity in general?). Their most intersting point places > >the difference in rates of homosexuality by urbanization > >within the context of the debate over the "true" prevalence > >of homoesexuality. > > > > I am not aware of any research that investigates > >differences in g/l/b from more or less urban areas. Is > >anyone out there in the know? THis could be fertile ground > >for research. > > > >Don - Pray tell, how one earns a "q&D" and does it mean > >"queer and Dashing"? If it does I qualify :-) > > > >Happy Saturday, > > > >Lisa > > > > > >On Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:05:38 -0800 Don Naylor > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Robert, You wrote "...rural sociology may not be a fertile ground for > >> exploring "queer" issues..." What ever happened to the expression "we > >> are everywhere"? > >> > >> Let me continue by saying that I agreed with your letter and this was only > >> a small part of it and not really having to do with the main point. But, I > >> was recently having a discussion with a friend about the gap between rural > >> and urban and this reminded me of it. I think there is a real unrecognized > >> difference between the thinking between "city folks" and those in "the > >> country side". This may be on the level of other differences that we more > >> commonly recognize (masculine/feminine, people of color/non people of > >> color, etc.). The point I'm trying to make is that outside the cities > >> there is a whole 'nother country. There may not be many "farm families" > >> anymore but there are a lot of people living in very rural places. We have > >> a very different view of the world and I'm sure we aren't all straight. I > >> hope I haven't confused things too much by mixing two issues. Maybe I'm > >> wrong not being much of an expert on "queer isues" but why wouldn't this be > >> as much a part of rural soc as soc of families or soc of anything else? > >> > >> Don > >> > >> Ps. While I am concerned that city-centric thinking leads to the > >> invisability of others I don't worry about it nearly as much as the issue > >> you are trying to raise--the invisibility of gays and lesbians in > >> sociology. Though a little thought on the prejudices around the > >> backwardness and lack of sophistication of non-city people wouldn't > >> hurt--have you not ever noticed that you can't help but think of those slow > >> talking people with southern accents as a little stupid? or at least to be > >> pitied for their lack of "sophistication" or "opportunities"? (especially > >> if they are working class). > >> > >> Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D > >> Department of Sociology > >> University of Southern California > >> Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 > >> > >> wrk. 213-740-3544 > >> hm. 213-748-7378 > >> fax 213-740-3535 > >> > >> dnaylor@usc.edu > >> > >> I read my email but not every day.... > >> > >> ---------- > >> > From: rb6553a@american.edu > >> > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > >> > >> > Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... > >> (fwd) > >> > Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:13 AM > >> > > >> > Kelley Crouse wrote: > >> > > >> > "Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT > >> > cover in order > >> > to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something > >> if, > >> > as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to > >> > the subject. So what do you give up?" > >> > > >> > While I do not quarrel with everything you have to say (a great deal of > >> it > >> > makes sense -- for instance, that Rural Sociology may not be a fertile > >> > ground for exploring "queer" issues), I must point out the institutional > >> > heterosexism of the above quote. Your statement assumes that one starts > >> out > >> > planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the > >> > process displacing other "more important" material. This certainly is one > >> > way to look at things, and is the very ideology used by (mostly) > >> > well-intentioned academics for many years in excluding womens' studies, > >> > multicultural coverage, etc. What I feel needs to be done is to stop this > >> > mode of thinking. Instead, begin with a "blank slate" and ask: "What is > >> > important and relevant to cover, and how can I do that in a fair, > >> > comprehensive and inclusive way?" Beginning with a pre-programmed > >> "agenda" > >> > based on "what's always been done" and then trying to cram in "extra" > >> > material is always going to result in the exclusion of > >> > minority/less-powerful voices. > >> > > >> > Your other comment, that you teach Sociology of the Family without > >> > mentioning "queer" issues and don't lose anything, is along similar > >> > objectionable lines. You say that you cover issues which impact "all > >> > families." This seems to me to be something of a cop out. While it is > >> true > >> > that some issues may impact all families (such as the threat of nuclear > >> > war), there are few issues that affect all families in the same ways. > >> I'll > >> > bet that you cover racial/ethnic issues in that same course (if you > >> don't, > >> > you should), so your exclusion of "queer" families needs better > >> > justification than you give. > >> > > >> > Your comment reminds me of a professor I had in a multicultural > >> counseling > >> > class, who responded to my question asking why Gays and Lesbians were not > >> > included at all in the course by saying: "It's the same issues." As if > >> > being a Lesbian has no unique component/history/experience. That's as > >> > insulting as saying that issues that a Black and an Asian would bring to > >> > counseling are identical. > >> > > >> > The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last > >> > "invisible" minority. > >> > > >> > Robert A. Brooks > >> > The American University > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Lisa Friel > >Graduate Student, Teaching Assistant > >Univ. of Virginia, Dept. of Sociology > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > From jvnix@dixie-net.com Sat Mar 7 20:55:08 1998 Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:53:38 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... (fwd) Don Naylor wrote: > > Dear Robert, You wrote "...rural sociology may not be a fertile g Though a little thought on the prejudices around the > backwardness and lack of sophistication of non-city people wouldn't > hurt--have you not ever noticed that you can't help but think of those > slow talking people with southern accents as a little stupid? or at > > least to be pitied for their lack of "sophistication" or > oppportunities"? (especially if they are working class). just as many rural folks would scoff at an "accent" of a 'city' person trying to be high and mighty. ;-) > > Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D > Department of Sociology > University of Southern California > Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 > > wrk. 213-740-3544 > hm. 213-748-7378 > fax 213-740-3535 > > dnaylor@usc.edu > > I read my email but not every day.... > > ---------- > > From: rb6553a@american.edu > > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > > > Subject: Re: Academic Freedom, Homosexuality and Kansas Universities ... > (fwd) > > Date: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:13 AM > > > > Kelley Crouse wrote: > > > > "Why does an introductory course need queer content? What does one NOT > > cover in order > > to include queer content? Let's face it, you have to give up something > if, > > as Lisa says, you are to truly devote the necessary time and attention to > > the subject. So what do you give up?" > > > > While I do not quarrel with everything you have to say (a great deal of > it > > makes sense -- for instance, that Rural Sociology may not be a fertile > > ground for exploring "queer" issues), I must point out the institutional > > heterosexism of the above quote. Your statement assumes that one starts > out > > planning a course without "queer" content, and then "adds" it, in the > > process displacing other "more important" material. This certainly is one > > way to look at things, and is the very ideology used by (mostly) > > well-intentioned academics for many years in excluding womens' studies, > > multicultural coverage, etc. What I feel needs to be done is to stop this > > mode of thinking. Instead, begin with a "blank slate" and ask: "What is > > important and relevant to cover, and how can I do that in a fair, > > comprehensive and inclusive way?" Beginning with a pre-programmed > "agenda" > > based on "what's always been done" and then trying to cram in "extra" > > material is always going to result in the exclusion of > > minority/less-powerful voices. > > > > Your other comment, that you teach Sociology of the Family without > > mentioning "queer" issues and don't lose anything, is along similar > > objectionable lines. You say that you cover issues which impact "all > > families." This seems to me to be something of a cop out. While it is > true > > that some issues may impact all families (such as the threat of nuclear > > war), there are few issues that affect all families in the same ways. > I'll > > bet that you cover racial/ethnic issues in that same course (if you > don't, > > you should), so your exclusion of "queer" families needs better > > justification than you give. > > > > Your comment reminds me of a professor I had in a multicultural > counseling > > class, who responded to my question asking why Gays and Lesbians were not > > included at all in the course by saying: "It's the same issues." As if > > being a Lesbian has no unique component/history/experience. That's as > > insulting as saying that issues that a Black and an Asian would bring to > > counseling are identical. > > > > The same is true in Sociology. Gay men and Lesbians are the last > > "invisible" minority. > > > > Robert A. Brooks > > The American University > > > > > > -- JV Nix | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm BlackMage Dragon | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix -==(UDIC)==- | ---FOSTI--- ------------------------------- Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------------------------------------------------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------------------------------------------------------- From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Sat Mar 7 21:04:09 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 23:03:43 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: religion debate To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu >Humorous to you, perhaps. Anyway, that is not exactly what I said. What I >did say was that it tells us very little. I stand by this claim. What >little it may tell us is that religion, along with an indefinite number of >other experiences, can affect attitudes. I'd add, also, that >measuring attitudes is not exactly a hard science, since the nature of >attitudes is not very well conceptualized or understood. For instance, >some attitudes are relatively long lasting, others are temporary, some are >learned from specific sources, and others from a composite of sources.Do >we really understand the complex relations among short term attitudes, >long term attitudes, social situations and social ties? There are also all >sorts of methodological problems with attitude "measures." What you >believe that you are straight forwardly measuring is, in part, an artifact >of your measuring device, and this, no doubt reflects what you want it to >reflect - namely, that there are two Or perhaps more) measurable types of >persons (e.g., the religious and the non-religious) and that person types >correspond with distinct attitude types. But what about persons who fall >somewhere between the ideal types? How do you account for their attitudes >and motives? Are you really going to split the differences by quantifying >them? These are generic problems that anyone dealing with attitude research has to deal with, but they are not insurmountable. It's not possible to dismiss a claim about attitudes simply by raising these issues. It's necessary to show that the claim fails because the researcher has failed to address and correct for the problems raised by these methodological challenges. There's no way to do that without getting a lot more detail about how Vince went about his analysis. From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Sat Mar 7 23:45:12 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 01:44:52 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Urban/rural Homosexuality To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu > I like the points you are raising here. I agree with Don's point that >"urbanism" is a variable that doesn't get enough play in sociology. Claude >Fischer argued back in 1975 that urbanism is a variable independent of >other demographic variables, but most sociologists seem to have ignored >that piece. Alex Inkeles began addressing urbanism as a significant causal factor in the 60s. His major book is "Becoming Modern" (1972), which discusses the influence of urban experience and related factors on all sorts of attitudes and behaviors associated with "modern" (terrible word choice) life. Openness to alternative lifestyles and ideologies is one of the outcomes associated with "modernity". There are serious flaws in this book, but it is an extremely important statement on the influence of sociostructural location on personality, and urbanism is one of the main independent variables. From conroyt@bu.edu Sun Mar 8 13:15:30 1998 Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:15:25 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: Thomas F Brown Subject: Re: religion debate Dear Thomas, I agree that these are generic issues, and are not necessarily a problem for Vincent only. They may not be insurmountable, but I was raising them primarily because of a rather bold assertion about social factors determining behaviors, with attitudes as a sort of mid-point of this relationship. While I don't deny that there can be a whole variety of statistical correlations among such variables, and I also agree that the researcher can set up typologies based on correlation, I believe that it is a misconception to make the theoretical leap into attitudes and actions as determined by social factors; my preference is to see action as governed by rules which actors follow as they pursue a whole variety of ends rather than to think of action as determined by some set of external causes. I also don't think that there can possibly be a one-to-one correspondence between attitudes and actions; for instance, in a workplace, some workers are more productive than others; some have a more "positive" attitude about their job, and others may not; there may be a fair amount of positive correlation between one's attitude and one's productivity. This may possibly be interpreted in such formulations as either, having a good attitude makes one more productive, or, being productive (and hence, contributing toward one's firm's overall level of productivity) engenders a positive attitude. On the other hand, one could argue that there need not be such a one-to-one correlation, i.e., that many things (besides worker attitudes) enhance productivity, that a good attitude is not enough to mask incompetence, that a worker can be devoted to the work and yet have a great deal of ambivalence toward the job, the workplace and/or the product. For example, I'm sure that we can all think of dedicated adjunct professors who do a fine job in spite of deep ambivalence about adjunct work. Finally, my sense is that if a researcher is truly interested in making grand claims about his/her subject matter, it would likely require a combination of specific methods and some fresh sociological imagination. I'm not anti quantification. But I do think that more qualitative measures can be useful toward overcoming some of the limits of quantification. Tom On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, you wrote: > These are generic problems that anyone dealing with attitude > research has to deal with, but they are not insurmountable. > It's not possible to dismiss a claim about attitudes simply > by raising these issues. It's necessary to show that the > claim fails because the researcher has failed to address > and correct for the problems raised by these methodological > challenges. There's no way to do that without getting a lot > more detail about how Vince went about his analysis. > > From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Mar 8 14:42:48 1998 Date: Sun, 08 Mar 98 16:36:03 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Critical Incidents in Grad School (fwd) To: grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Interesting request for information. By the way, Scott's web site (url on the bottom) is a very good website. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:49:57 -0800 Reply-To: Graduate Student Conversations Sender: Graduate Student Conversations From: Scott Kerlin Subject: Critical Incidents in Grad School To: GRADTALK@UVVM.UVIC.CA Hi, everybody: In the midst of preparing a pair of graduate-level courses that I'll be teaching this spring for PSU, I've been continuing to explore many topics about graduate students' educational experiences. I have had the opportunity to chat (either online or in person) with a number of you recently, but I'd like to open the dialogue a bit wider now. I have a question for the entire group that I hope will inspire some reflective discussions on this list in the days ahead. When I was beginning my doctoral research on human relations issues in the academic profession, I came across a series of articles on something called the "Critical Incident Technique", which was adopted (as I recall) for a wide range of professional settings from a psychological model created by John Flanagan during World War II. I found this method helpful in my own reflections during and after my graduate years as a way of giving meaning to my experiences, and I used it in a campus-wide survey I later conducted on campus climate issues at a community college. The results of the dialogue (we used focus groups to extend the conversations) helped to raise consciousness about many issues affecting others on campus. Many of you have already talked at one time or another with this forum about major issues or challenges you've experienced during your graduate years, so these questions may seem familiar to you. I'd like to ask you to share your answers to these questions with GRADTALK: Can you name 2 events, incidents, or situations that have occurred during your graduate years that have had a *positive* impact on your progress toward degree completion? What are those events, and in what way have they affected your progress? Can you name 2 events, incidents, or situations that have had a *negative* impact on your progress toward degree completion? What are they, and how have they affected your progress? I look forward to hearing from many of you in response to this query--either in care of this list or privately. From my own personal experience in research and in counseling others, when people reflect about these questions and when they discuss their answers with supportive others, a great deal of benefit results for everyone involved... Scott Kerlin GRADTALK Co-Host skerlin@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~skerlin/ The GRADTALK Home Page: http://www.irn.pdx.edu/~kerlinb/gradtalk/gradtalk.html From rb6553a@american.edu Mon Mar 9 11:06:03 1998 From: rb6553a@american.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:06:44 -0500 Subject: Re: gays and lesbians "down on the farm" Don -- You raise an interesting point. Certainly, lesbians and gays are "everywhere," including rural areas. As soon as I had finished the sentence regarding rural sociology not being a "fertile ground" for gay and lesbian input, I wondered if I meant that, or what I meant. I confess that I have not taken a Soicology of the Family course, nor a course in Rural Sociology (although I do have a Masters in Clinical Psychology specializing in Couples and Family counseling). I think my point was (is) that in a Sociology of the Family class, one is dealing directly with such issues as sexuality, family composition, family and societal norms, etc., and therefore, because one is dealing directly with heterosexual norms, one must address challenges to those norms, and explore ways in which many families differ from them. The connection between Rural Sociology and sexuality appears to me much more tenuous. Robert A. Brooks The American University From jjanosko@vt.edu Mon Mar 9 19:35:26 1998 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 21:37:05 +0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Jeff Janosko Subject: Urban/Rural Homosexuality That rural gays are less visible than those in urban areas may be attributable to the differing social infrastructures of the two types of communities. According to Neal Flora and Jan Flora (see_Rural Communities: Legacy and Change_. 1992. Westview Press), "role homogeneity" and "acquaintanceship density" in rural areas differ significantly from that of urban areas. Role homogeneity "describes the extent to which community members interact with one another across a wide variety of social settings." Density of acquaintanceship "describes the frequency with which community members interact with one another on a personal basis" (Flora et. al, p. 78). Rural communities exhibit high RH and DA. For example, one's boss is also the coach of your daughter's baseball team and a member of your church choir; her spouse may be the president of the Ruritan Club, your son's scoutmaster, and your brother's hunting buddy. Routine social interactions in a rural setting exhibit a degree of integration that is seldom replicated in urban communities. Therefore, the social "cost" associated with being (openly) gay would potentially be much higher than in an urban community. ***************** Jeff Janosko Doctoral Candidate Center for Public Administration and Policy Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA U.S.A jjanosko@vt.edu From watterwo@sobek.Colorado.EDU Tue Mar 10 10:24:43 1998 Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:24:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:24:31 -0700 (MST) From: Jay Watterworth To: teaching sociology Subject: Grades and evaluations Does anyone have any information on the relationship between grade inflation and student course evaluations? Here at CU students fill out course evaluation forms (FCQs) at the end of the semester in which they give a letter grade for their teachers' performance, the course itself, and written comments. These FCQs follow us and are used to help determine profs' pay raises and teaching assignments for grad students. The questions that have come up recently include: 1) Is there a correlation between between the grades a teacher gives his or her students and the scores the teachers receive on the evaluations? 2) Does the desire for higher evaluation scores cause grade inflation? 3) Does concern regarding evaluation scores have any effect the conduct or teaching style of teachers? I would appreciate any sage observations or comments anyone might have or references to literature on this subject. Thanks! Jay Watterworth From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Tue Mar 10 12:11:16 1998 From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: Grades and evaluations Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:38:25 -0800 Jay, I think I remember a discussion of this on TEACHSOC a few months back. I believe they have an index for much of what has been written. Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I read my email but not every day.... ---------- > From: Jay Watterworth > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Grades and evaluations > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 9:24 AM > > Does anyone have any information on the relationship between > grade inflation and student course evaluations? > Here at CU students fill out course evaluation forms (FCQs) at > the end of the semester in which they give a letter grade for their > teachers' performance, the course itself, and written comments. These > FCQs follow us and are used to help determine profs' pay raises and > teaching assignments for grad students. > The questions that have come up recently include: > 1) Is there a correlation between between the grades a teacher gives his > or her students and the scores the teachers receive on the evaluations? > 2) Does the desire for higher evaluation scores cause grade inflation? > 3) Does concern regarding evaluation scores have any effect the conduct or > teaching style of teachers? > I would appreciate any sage observations or comments anyone might > have or references to literature on this subject. > Thanks! > Jay Watterworth From lmiller@weber.ucsd.edu Tue Mar 10 13:48:52 1998 by weber.ucsd.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA04734 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:48:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:48:48 -0800 (PST) From: Laura Miller To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: grades & evaluations Jay, You should look at a recent article on just this subject in the Chronicle of Higher Education of January 16, 1998. See also the letters to the editor in the February 20th edition. The article discusses some of the studies that have been done to try to measure the correspondence between high grades & good evaluations. On a more anecdotal note, I've heard it said many times that junior faculty who want tenure are kind of crazy to be tough graders. With student evaluations often the only measure of teaching effectiveness when it comes to tenure decisions, faculty can't risk alienating students with un-inflated grades. Laura Miller UC San Diego lmiller@ucsd.edu From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Tue Mar 10 15:20:58 1998 From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: grades & evaluations Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:13:58 -0800 Having given a mini-lecture on causality last week there is something that is jumping out at me about the question of grades for students and evaluations of faculty. That's time order. I've never know my final grade when doing a course evaluation. Sometimes in grad seminars I've had no grades at that point. And the evaluations that I get as a TA are done before students get their final exam grade, their project/paper grade and their final grade. Maybe people are thinking about evaluations having been influenced by midterms or something. Or are we talking about evaluations based on a general perception (rumors etc.) that someone grades a certain way? My experience with several faculty is that grades were computed pretty much by the math. The exception was one professor who "re-corrected" a final and gave higher grades. They were a very junior faculty but in fairness the final seemed overly hard and I felt fine about the outcome of their actions (if not about the actual method--I would have rather she just curved everybody up a bit. More democratic and doesn't undercut me). Speaking of which, if anybody comes up with anything about how this affects TA evaluations I'd like to hear about it. Some students think I grade too hard. Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I read my email but not every day.... ---------- > From: Laura Miller > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: grades & evaluations > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 12:48 PM > > Jay, > > You should look at a recent article on just this subject in the Chronicle of > Higher Education of January 16, 1998. See also the letters to the editor > in the February 20th edition. The article discusses some of the studies > that have been done to try to measure the correspondence between high > grades & good evaluations. > > On a more anecdotal note, I've heard it said many times that junior faculty > who want tenure are kind of crazy to be tough graders. With student > evaluations often the only measure of teaching effectiveness when it comes > to tenure decisions, faculty can't risk alienating students with un-inflated > grades. > > Laura Miller > UC San Diego > lmiller@ucsd.edu From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Mar 10 18:32:44 1998 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 20:26:30 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: position announcement (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:50:33 -0600 To: teachsoc@poplar.lemoyne.edu From: Kathleen McKinney Reply-To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Subject: position announcement The Department of Sociology & Anthropology seeks an individual for a full-time, non tenure-track position to teach sociology courses during the 1998-99 academic year. We seek a person with a strong commitment to, and demonstrated excellence in teaching. Areas are open, but we are particularly interested in social stratification, marriage and family, sex roles, and criminology. Application deadline is March 30, 1998. Will conduct interviews at MSS meetings in Kansas City, Missouri on April 3 and/or 4. Send vita, evidence of teaching effectiveness, and list of three references to: Nick Maroules, Chair Department of Sociology & Anthropology Illinois State University Normal, Illinois, 61790-4660 Email Address: ngmarou@ilstu.edu The department's web site can be found at: http://www.cas.ilstu.edu/SOA/final.htm Illinois State University is an Affirmative Action/ Equal Opportunity Employer. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Mar 10 18:42:25 1998 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 20:28:12 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: evaluations To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Being someone who has gotten both very good evals. and some not so good evals., I think the answer is they do measure student perceptions of a course and the way it was taught, and with a large enough sample (100+) teaching performance as well. Having gone to an undergrad. school where we didn't have evals., I do see some disadvantages to having evals: (1) They might discourage innovation and/or the use of primary readings, b/c professors might wonder why change what works, and students in general have greater difficulty with primary readings (at least that is what they tell me); (2) They discourage students from taking ownership of their education, especially in terms of seeing Professors in office hours if there is something you might want the instructor to be doing differently, or seeing the Dept. Head if the instructor is such an arrogant son of a pup that they tell the students to go screw themselves. The time to deal with a course and instructor which is not going well is well before the end of the semester, and even before the mid-term time of the semester. From sharons1@airmail.net Tue Mar 10 21:17:02 1998 (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:45:46 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: search for listserve Does anyone have any information about a listserve called sociology for women in society? Sharon Tx Woman's Univ From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Tue Mar 10 23:30:01 1998 From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: search for listserve Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:14:21 -0800 Sharon, I've forwarded your message to SWS. They will, I'm sure, be in touch, Don PS. You can't just get on the list serve as its for members only. Of course, you can become a member and get the excellent journal, be on the list serve, etc. It's quite reasonble. If by chance you don't here from them (things do get lost in email land) get back to me. Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I read my email but not every day.... ---------- > From: Sharon Snow > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: search for listserve > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 9:45 PM > > Does anyone have any information about a listserve called sociology for > women in society? > > Sharon > Tx Woman's Univ From tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Wed Mar 11 08:24:14 1998 by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:06:23 -0500 From: tombrown@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: evaluations To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Does anyone know of a school where grad students write evaluations of their graduate courses? If so, how does it work? From Howery@asanet.org Wed Mar 11 08:41:16 1998 From: Carla Howery To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: RE: search for listserve Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:39:35 -0500 Sociologists for Women in Society (SWS) is a national organization (with some local chapters) that attends to just what the name implies. Now 26 years old. It has a listserv for members only. to find out about SWS, its wonderful journal GENDER & SOCIETY, the program and social events at the annual meeting (in conjunction with ASA), please contact the Executive Officer: Mary French mcfrench@wright.edu 937-775-4950 >-----Original Message----- >Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 12:46 AM >To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >Subject: search for listserve > >Does anyone have any information about a listserve called sociology for >women in society? > >Sharon >Tx Woman's Univ From dcoon@ksu.edu Wed Mar 11 08:57:10 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:56:56 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Alan Coon To: Sociology Graduate Students- International Subject: Re: evaluations In-Reply-To: <199803111506.KAA08535@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Here at K-State grad students fill out what is called a TEVAL form. I think it is the same or similar to the ones the undergrads fill out. It uses a likert-type scale to rate the professors' performance, and it has a brief comment section at the end to write in any suggestions or comments. The bulk of the form however, consists of that likert-type scale in which the answers are "bubbled in" using a number 2 pencil presumably, the form is fed into some kind of computer. The form asks questions like "Insturctor is organized and well prepared for class" "Makes course objectives clear" "Is fair in grading and evaluation pratices" Dave. _________________________________________ | Dave A. Coon | |MA Student & Graduate Teaching Assistant | |Dept. of Sociology, Anthropology & Soc Wk| | Kansas State University | | e-mail: dcoon@ksu.edu | | Office: 253 Waters Hall, KSU | | Office Phone: (785)532-4972 | / )|Office Hrs: Tu/Th 10:45-11:20, W 10:30-12|( \ / / | WEB: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~dcoon | \ \ ( ( | TA for SOCIO 211G 12:30-1:45 TU/TH | ) ) (((\ \>|_/->_________________________________<-\_| 10 Mar 1998 13:07:06 -0700 (MST) 10 Mar 1998 13:44:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:48 -0600 (CST) From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Subject: Suggestion for Immigration Project Sender: owner-psn@csf.colorado.edu To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Reply-to: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Members of PSN list: My name is Alex Arifianto and I am a senior undergraduate student at Ripon College in Wisconsin. Right now I am working on my senior thesis and I am doing a research on the attitudes of Ripon College students toward immigration. Right now I want to request advice on how should I do on my research and what factors/measurements should I take into account on my research. For your information, Ripon College is a small liberal arts college with around 700 students. Many departments are small (in fact, we only have one sociology professor). The students here tend to be homogeneous in racial background (Caucasian), state of origin (mostly from Wisconsin and Northern Illinois) and size of hometown (small town / village). It is interesting to find out how these students would think about immigrants, since their background will lead people from such backgrounds above to have negative attitdues toward immigrants and immigration. On the other hand, my literature review has indicated that people who have more education and have younger age tend to be more liberal and more suportive toward immigration. Given this background that I just given you, please give me some suggestions on what should I do to have a worthwhile research project and also what characteristics should I take into account on my project. Thank you for your assistance. Sincerely, Alexander R Arifianto arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu From jewellg@gvsu.edu Wed Mar 11 14:53:13 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 13:42:25 -0500 From: "Gayla Jewell" To: Subject: Re[2]: search for listserve March 11 Your message to Sharon caught my eye. I, too, am interested in information about such an organization. Please email me stuff or feel free to forward my message as you did Sharon's. Thanks. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: search for listserve Author: at Internet Date: 3/10/98 10:14 PM Sharon, I've forwarded your message to SWS. They will, I'm sure, be in touch, Don PS. You can't just get on the list serve as its for members only. Of course, you can become a member and get the excellent journal, be on the list serve, etc. It's quite reasonble. If by chance you don't here from them (things do get lost in email land) get back to me. Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I read my email but not every day.... ---------- > From: Sharon Snow > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: search for listserve > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 9:45 PM > > Does anyone have any information about a listserve called sociology for > women in society? > > Sharon > Tx Woman's Univ From chadk@yourinter.net Wed Mar 11 16:24:44 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:22:30 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: chadk@yourinter.net (Chad Kimmel) Subject: Call for Papers CHAD KIMMEL has been appointed Editor of the Summer Issue of the Graduate Student Journal of the Red Feather Institute. Chad is grad student at IUP; he does work in both quantitative analysis and in social change. He has set, as a theme, explorations in social change in everyday life; thus, articles geared toward population, family, work, environment, technology, religion, recreational sports, etc, would be fine. You may contact Chad directly at: ckimmel@yourinter.net Vol. 2: Summer: Exploring Social Change in Everyday Life : Send Disks to: Chad Kimmel, Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall,Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 TR Young, PS: Grad Students wishing to Edit Special Issues or future Quarterly Issues may preview the Journal at: http://www.tryoung.com/journals/journalindex/journalindex.html TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com ***************************************************** Chad M. Kimmel Graduate Assistant/Data Manager Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 ckimmel@yourinter.net http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel 724-463-7010 **************************************************** From tr@tryoung.com Thu Mar 12 03:26:10 1998 by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Papers Available on-line Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:29:31 -0500 Several of the early papers of the Transforming Sociology Series have been up-loaded to the RF Archives. They include: #114 SPORT IN ADVANCED CAPITALISM, by Thomas Kiel, University of Louisville For those of you who like to understand the way professional sports fits into the larger society in these days. #078 Typifications of Christ at Christmas and Eastertime by TR Young For those of you interested in the sociology of Religion and how the typifications of Christ at EasterTime differ from those of Christmas past. 012 Self and Social Organization in Capitalist Societies by TR Young For those of you who wonder about the problems of self, socialization and morality in massified market societies. More in the structural social psychology series by TR Young Chas A Ostenle, Associate Director Chas A Ostenle, Research Scholar The Red Feather Institute Chas.A.Ostenle@tryoung.com From ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Thu Mar 12 11:44:23 1998 id LAA05581; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:44:14 -0700 (MST) From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:29:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Relations between African-Americans and Immigrants To: psn@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Members of PSN and SOCGRAD mailing lists: There is an interesting article on February 1998 edition of the American Sociological Review. Its titled "Immigration, race, and Riot: the 1992 Los Angeles Uprising" by Albert Bergsen abd Max Herman (University of Arizona). The conclusion of this article is that rapid influx of immigration in East Central LA contributed to hostility between African American and immigrant (mostly Hispanic and Asian) residents of the area. In my view, this supports one of the hypothesis of attitudes toward immigrants that regradless of one's race background, one who have settled for a long time in an area /country will develop hostilities toward newer immigrants who settle in that area/country. The fact that there is tensions between African-Americans and ne immigrant groups from Latin America and Asia is very interesting, since little research has been done on this and the research results tend to be inconsistent on this topic. I want to know your opinions on this. Please comment on the hypothesis above. Then you can explain in your view on factors that causes friction between African-American and immigrants from Latin America and Asia. Finally, since I always interested in finding solutions, I want to find out your proposed solution on this problem, since I think the fact that the article seems to indicate that there's a lot of tension between minority groups in the U.S is depressing. Ideally, I think this group should understand their position in American society (that they all minorities and that many Caucasian thought of these groups as racially inferior) and that they should help each other when they are being attacked by Anglo majority, not bickering with each other like now. I want to hear your thoughts on this. Thank you. --Alex Arifianto From bjohnson@sobek.Colorado.EDU Thu Mar 12 12:53:09 1998 Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:53:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:53:06 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Johnson To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: evaluations In-Reply-To: <980310.203633.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Thanks for your insights, Alan. I think that both points that you bring up are important to consider. brett johnson univ. of colorado On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Alan Davidson wrote: > Being someone who has gotten both very good evals. and some not so good > evals., I think the answer is they do measure student perceptions of > a course and the way it was taught, and with a large enough sample (100+) > teaching performance as well. Having gone to an undergrad. school where > we didn't have evals., I do see some disadvantages to having evals: > > (1) They might discourage innovation and/or the use of primary readings, > b/c professors might wonder why change what works, and students in general > have greater difficulty with primary readings (at least that is what they > tell me); > > (2) They discourage students from taking ownership of their education, > especially in terms of seeing Professors in office hours if there is > something you might want the instructor to be doing differently, or > seeing the Dept. Head if the instructor is such an arrogant son of a pup > that they tell the students to go screw themselves. > > The time to deal with a course and instructor which is not going well is > well before the end of the semester, and even before the mid-term time > of the semester. > From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Fri Mar 13 01:12:35 1998 From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: evaluations Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:52:11 -0800 Thomas, we do here and it seems so common place to me that I'm having trouble remembering anything about it (or maybe its just getting late). I think we use the same forms and go through the same process as the under grad classes do. I believe it is mandatory for every class, every semester. I'd be happy to tell you more if you want (though specific questions would help). Let me know, I can probably even steal a form for you. Don Ps. Do you mean specifically the course as separate form the instructor? We kind of do both together though the emphasis is on the instructor (but we do rate, 1-5, the class too). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: Thomas F Brown > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: evaluations > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 7:06 AM > > Does anyone know of a school where grad students write > evaluations of their graduate courses? If so, how does > it work? > From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Fri Mar 13 01:39:30 1998 id AAA09809; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 00:39:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 00:35:31 -0800 From: Christian Harlow To: socgrad@cats.ucsc.edu, "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: what the hell is going on? I just saw this on Reuters...can we think of anything else to commodify? _____________________________________________________________________ The New Improved Moon No longer will the moon be wasted on young lovers if advertisers Gary Betts and Malcolm Green have their way. The two London ad execs have announced plans to turn the moon into a giant billboard. After consulting with NASA scientists, the two believe they have a feasible plan for projecting corporate logos onto the moon's surface using reflected sunlight from two large umbrella shaped mirrors. In the scientific community, the major debate seems to be over how and not whether to project brand names onto the moon. French scientists have reportedly come up with a cheaper way to get corporate logos into space using reflecting satellites. Meanwhile, the news agency Reuters treats this as a promotion for the moon, adding that now "the moon could be more than just a part of the solar system." (Reuters) From nrw1@Ra.MsState.Edu Fri Mar 13 11:45:37 1998 Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu (Ra.MsState.Edu [130.18.80.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA18345 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:45:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (nrw1@localhost); by Ra.MsState.Edu (8.8.8/8.8.7/MsState-Ra/1.8) with SMTP; id MAA20235 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:45:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:45:32 -0600 (CST) From: "Neil R. White" To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: African-Americans and Immigrants and Spike Lee In-Reply-To: <01IUKVCFNOEYA64NCA@Acad.Ripon.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Spike Lee film "Do The Right Thing" addressed the issue of immigrant tension in a most compelling way. The film pointed out what tensions are out there and what the result of this tension could be. The films impact is possibly even more compelling now, as it was released before the L.A. riot ever took place. Neil Neil R. White NRW1@Ra.MsState.edu http://www2.msstate.edu/~nrw1 "In the beginning, nothing stranger had ever happened"--Neil R. White From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Fri Mar 13 12:12:17 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA18954 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:12:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3021; Fri, 13 Mar 98 14:12:22 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 3639; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:12:22 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 14:10:39 EST From: danielle Subject: Social Movements workshop To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980313.141222.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This is an announcement that I hope people will send to any individuals and/or lists they know about..... Thanks, Danielle Currier at UConn ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Announcing a Social Movement workshop: Social Movements and Society: Identity, Culture and Institutions August 19-21, 1998 (preceding the ASA meetings University of California - Davis This workshop will bring together scholars who employ different theoretical tools to address the connection between social movements and the larger society. To promote extensive discussion time and intellectual cross-fertilization, participants will divide into four working groups for much of the conference. Working group topics: Movement Culture, Organizations, and Participants The State, Movement Sectors, and Cycles of Protest Movements, Culture, Democratization Organizing, Social Movements and the Academy Workshop schedule: Wednesday, Aug. 19 - Convenes at 3 p.m.; opening plenary, banquet Thursday, Aug. 20 - Full day of working group panels and discussions Friday, Aug. 21 - Closing plenary, workshop ends at noon To present a paper at a working group session, send abstract to: Jo Reger 122 Lincoln Avenue Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 e-mail jreger@juno.com DEADLINE: April 30, 1998 Registration deadline: June 15, 1998 For registration information contact: UC-Davis Conference and Event Services Registration Line 530/757-3331 or Fax 530/757-7943 **All members of the CBSM section of the ASA will be mailed registration forms _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From tr@tryoung.com Sat Mar 14 03:37:47 1998 Received: from ntserver3.sensible-net.com ([208.18.224.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id DAA04360 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:37:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.19]) by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA247 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:41:09 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19980314053438.3e47f592@sensible-net.com> X-Sender: tr@sensible-net.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 05:41:09 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by csf.Colorado.EDU id DAA04362 I am very pleased to announce a new Journal on the Red Feather Home Page: It is called: The Red feather Journal of Postmodern Criminology. The address is: http://www.tryoung.com/journals/journalindex/journalindex.html The Founding Editors are: Dragan Milovanovic at: d-milovanovic@neiu.edu Bruce Arrigo at: BArrigo@mail.cspp.edu Stuart Henry at: SOC_HENRY@ONLINE.EMICH.EDU and TR Young at: tr@tryoung.com Those interested in Editing Special Issues may contact any of the above with suggestions for themes... The CONTENTS of Vol. 1 are: 001 OVERVIEW The first Article, by Barak, Henry and Milovanovic, provides an Overview of Postmodern Criminology.  002 TOPOLOGICAL CONSTRUCTIONS OF CRIMINOLOGIC REALITIES by Bruce Arrigo. In this article, Arrigo uses topological theory to discuss differences between pre-modern, modern and postmodern constructions of theories of Crime.  He goes on to offer some ideas about replacement discourses based upon the work of Lacan. 003 DUELING PARADIGMS The third article, Dueling Paradigms, by Dragan Milovanovic, gives the reader a broad view of differences between modern and postmodern approaches to knowledge and to criminology. In this article, Dragan examines differences between these paradigms; these dimensions include the nature of:     (1) society and social structure,     (2) social roles,     (3) subjectivity/agency,     (4) discourse,     (5) knowledge,     (6) space/time,     (7) Causality, and     (8) social change. 004 A CONSTITUTIVE THEORY OF JUSTICE by TR Young In this article, Young tries to use postmodern understandings of texts about the sources and solutions to crime and apply them to a theory of Justice. In brief, Young says that it is necessary to create/constitute definitions of crime;  explanations of crime and to offer solutions to the kind of behavior constructed as crime.   However, Young asserts, an affirmative postmodern approach to a theory of Justice requires a much different way of defining, policing and preventing unwanted behavior. Generally, the use of   Crime-as-Text to reproduce hierarchies of class, gender, racism as well as to privilege given nations and exclusionary politics is hostile to the human project. Instead, Young suggests a version of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a more affirmative approach to the constitution of theories of Justice.  An affirmative postmodern theory of Justice requires both praxis and praxis societies organized in rich democratic format.  See other articles in this series including the Red Feather Manifesto authored by Chas A Ostenle, below. 005 MANIFESTO FOR PRAXIS SOCIETIES And For A Global Democratic and Socialist Political Economy By Chas A Ostenle, Research Scholar, the Red Feather Institute In the Manifesto, Ostenle goes beyond a postmodern critique and exploration of postmodern criminology to suggest how, using the language and categories of the earlier Communist Manifesto, affirmative postmodern criminologists and other scholars in social science might want to work to maximize praxis for all persons and all peoples. The Manifesto is part of a larger agenda in which Ostenle and the Red Feather Institute work to replace Criminal Justice with Social Justice. Forthcoming Issues Include: Vol. 1: INTRODUCTION TO POSTMODERN CRIMINOLOGY Vol. 2: Non-Linear Dynamics in Criminology, TR Young, Editor Vol. 3: From Criminal Justice to Social Justice: TR Young, Editor Contact TR if you have papers to offer: tr@tryoung.com Vol. 4: Feminist Criminology  (Under Construction) Contact Bruce Arrigo if you are interested in Editing this Volume: BArrigo@mail.cspp.edu Vol. 5:Dramaturgical Analyses in Prisons, Courts and the Law-Making Process...Edited by David Asma Contact David if you have a paper to offer: asma@wwa.com TR Young, General Editor, Red Feather Journals Chas A Ostenle, Research Scholar The Red Feather Institute Chas.A.Ostenle@tryoung.com From conroyt@bu.edu Mon Mar 16 12:34:04 1998 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id MAA23854 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:34:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id OAA165066 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:34:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:34:00 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: list Subject: A New E-zine: workplace (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >FYI, NAGPS is web-hosting this excellent new electronic magazine! >[ That means, the GSC of MLA runs and operates it, but we provide >the web space for it. ] >Check it out! > >PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY TO ACADEMIC LISTS > > *N*O*W *A*V*A*I*L*A*B*L*E (free free free) > www.workplace-gsc.com > >a WEBsite+ an electronic JOURNAL+ a place to get DATES > > W~O~R~K~P~L~A~C~E > a _peer-reviewed_ journal addressing the > political > historical and > aesthetic conditions of > a/c/a/d/e/m/i/c l/a/b/o/r in north america > *brought to you by the > graduate.student.caucus > an allied organization of > the modern.language.assocation > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >Workplace 1.1 ( Feb. 1998) > >www.workplace-gsc.com www. workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >Foreword by Marc Bousquet: "The degree holder is the waste product >of a job system that produces Ph.D holders but does not use them. >In language and literature more than any other field the teaching >machine runs on non-degreed labor. . . ." > >F^E^A^T^U^R^E^S >"What Hath English Wrought" by Cary Nelson: "The astonished gaze >that MLA casts on recent history suggests the windswept visage of >a profession no longer in control of its fate. Eyes bulging, the >figure is nearly swept away by forces it cannot comprehend. In >stark terror at their oncoming fury, it dares not turn to glance >at their destination. . . ." > >"This Old House: Renovating CUNY's House of Labor" by Barbara Bowen >"The Future of an Illusion" by Christian Gregory >"Unionizing Against Cutbacks" by Paul Lauter >"What is an Organization like the MLA?" by Steve Watt >"Resistance is Fruitful: > Coalition-building in Ontario" by Victoria Smallman > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >I^N^T^E^R^V^I^E^W >"Jobless Higher Ed: > An interview with Stanley Aronowitz" by Andrew Long > >www.workplace-gsc.com www. workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >F^O^R^U^M > !~! Organizing Our Asses Off !~! >"Cannibals, Star Trek, and Egg-timers" > by Anthony M. Navarrette and Kate Burns, UCSD >"Unions, Universities, and the State of Texas" > by Kirsten Christensen and Ray Watkins, UT-Austin >"5,000 Down, 200,000 to Go: Organizing City University of New York" > by Eric Marshall, CUNY >"Critical Year" > by Ed Fox and Curtis Anderson, Indiana U. >"What's Next? Organizing After the COGS Union Affiliation Vote" > by Julie Schmid, U. Iowa >"Institutional Memory and Changing Membership" > A Response by Alan Kalish, Indiana U. >"Beyond the Campus Gates: The Personal is Still Political" > A Response by Vinny Tirelli, City U. New York >"Organizing Democracy:" > A Response by Karen Thompson, Rutgers U. > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >C^O^N^V^E^N^T^I^O^N R^E^P^O^R^T^S >MLA Annual Convention, Toronto, Canada, December 1997 > by Mark Kelley, CUNY Graduate School >6th National GTA Conference, Minneapolis, November 1997 > by Alan Kalish, Indiana University > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >P^E^R^S^O^N^A^L C^R^I^T^I^C^I^S^M >"Looking Forward In Anger" by Barbara White > >"The Good Professors of Szechuan" by Gregory Myerson: "Until >last spring, I was assistant professor of critical >theory at UNCG. I didn't get tenure. Now I'm unemployed and >competing with my students for one-year jobs around town. . . ." > >"Performing Shakespeare: Writing and Literacy on the Job" by Leo >Parascondola: "I arranged to take the test for bus operator, and I > began a 21-year odyssey in a public conveyance around the >boroughs of Manhattan and the Bronx. . . ." > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >D^A^T^E^S >Fight rationalization by filing a WORKPLACE personal ad (free) > >services available at the website > discounted book purchases > hot links to academic labor and student orgs. > personals FREE FREE FREE > classified listings FREE FREE FREE > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >Future Issues of _Workplace_: > >Oct '98 1:2 The Melodrama of Difference: The University in Tiers > Issue Editor: Tony O'Brien, Queens College, CUNY. >Feb '99 2:1 The Political is the Personal: Life Narratives of > Academic Labor. Issue Editor: Cheryl Torsney, West > Virginia University >Oct '99 2:2 Academic Labor, Social Policy, and the Law. Issue > Editor, Randy Martin, Pratt Institute >Feb '00 3:1 Political Economy and Higher Ed. Pedagogies. Issue > Editor: Wendy Hesford, Indiana University. >Oct '00 3:2 New Hegemony Studies: Illiberalism and Academic Labor > Issue Editor: Marc Bousquet > >www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com www.workplace-gsc.com > >--and watch for a WORKPLACE SPECIAL COMING SOON: > > E*L*A*I*N*E W*A*T*C*H > Showalter's War on Graduate Students > > > > > > > > > >@===============================================================@ >| Tony Rosati | NAGPS Chief Information Officer | >| 6630 Moly Drive | NAGPS Board of Directors, 1992-1998 | >| Falls Church VA 22046 | NAGPS Webmaster (webmaster@nagps.org) | >| 703-237-4323 | Owner, T-ASSIST Discussion List | >|===============================================================| >| Personal WWW Page >>>> http://www.access.digex.net/~rosati/ | >| NAGPS WWW Site >>>> http://www.nagps.org/NAGPS/ | >@===============================================================@ > >_________________________________________________________________________ > This message sent | Help on the lists nagps-help@nagps.org > using the NAGPS | Subscribe/remove/etc. http://www.nagps.org/NAGPS/ > E-mail Server | Reach NAGPS officers nagps-officers@nagps.org > From chadk@yourinter.net Mon Mar 16 17:18:36 1998 Received: from zeus.yourinter.net (localhost [151.201.78.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA06742 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:18:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from hp-customer ([151.201.78.90]) by zeus.yourinter.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-43256U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA195 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:10:10 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980317031558.0067f4cc@yourinter.net> X-Sender: chadk@yourinter.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:15:58 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: chadk@yourinter.net (Chad Kimmel) Subject: Interesting Question!!! I am a member of "applied sociology's" listserve, and recently came across this interesting question! I will include my response below, but am interested in what others would have to say. Chad. _____________ Dear Sir/Madam: I recently graduated with a BA. in sociology. Can I call myself a sociologist in correpsondence and cards etc., or would I have to join an association to do so? Please advise. Thank you. _______________________ My answer would be yes ! I would, with a BA in Sociology, call myself a Sociologist, only if I was working within or contributing to the dicipline/profession. Why should someone without a Graduate Degree in Sociology not be allowed to use this term. If someone feels they are educated enough, with the skills and experience, to carry the weight, then do it!!! I would, however, highly urge this person to join a professional association (i.e., ASA, SAS, etc..). More importanly, the question becomes, "what knowledge, skills, or experience do I posses that can help me, help others"? I am sure there are many BA's out there with equal or more knowledge of the dicipline than many Graduate students. This is sad, but true! What do you think! Chad... ***************************************************** Chad M. Kimmel Graduate Assistant/Data Manager Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 ckimmel@yourinter.net http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel 724-463-7010 **************************************************** From sharons1@airmail.net Mon Mar 16 18:40:21 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA11800 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:40:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.52.99] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for id ; Mon, 16 Mar 98 19:40:17 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <350DE944.30E5@airmail.net> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:08:52 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Interesting Question!!! References: <1.5.4.32.19980317031558.0067f4cc@yourinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary Jo Deegan in her book _Women in Sociology_ used the five criteria established by Dirk Kasler to determine if a specific person was a sociologist: 1. occupy a chair of sociology and/or teach sociology 2. membership in a national sociological society 3. coauthorship of sociological articles or textbooks 4. self-definition as a sociologist 5. definition by others as a sociologist You may of course agree or disagree with Kasler. Sharon Snow Texas Woman's University Chad Kimmel wrote: > > > > I am a member of "applied sociology's" listserve, and recently came across > this interesting question! I will include my response below, but am > interested in what others would have to say. > > Chad. > > _____________ > > Dear Sir/Madam: > > I recently graduated with a BA. in sociology. Can I call myself a > sociologist > in correpsondence and cards etc., or would I have to join an association > > to do so? > > Please advise. > > Thank you. > _______________________ > > My answer would be yes ! I would, with a BA in Sociology, call myself a > Sociologist, only if I was working within or contributing to the > dicipline/profession. Why should someone without a Graduate Degree in > Sociology not be allowed to use this term. If someone feels they are > educated enough, with the skills and experience, to carry the weight, then > do it!!! I would, however, highly urge this person to join a professional > association (i.e., ASA, SAS, etc..). > > More importanly, the question becomes, "what knowledge, skills, or > experience do I posses that can help me, help others"? I am sure there are > many BA's out there with equal or more knowledge of the dicipline than many > Graduate students. This is sad, but true! > > What do you think! > > Chad... > ***************************************************** > Chad M. Kimmel > Graduate Assistant/Data Manager > Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) > > Indiana University of Pennsylvania > 102 McElhaney Hall > Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 > > ckimmel@yourinter.net > http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel > 724-463-7010 > > **************************************************** From danryan@mills.edu Mon Mar 16 19:17:16 1998 Received: from ella.mills.edu (ella.mills.edu [144.91.3.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id TAA12562 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:17:14 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 18631 invoked from network); 16 Mar 1998 18:17:13 -0800 Received: from pc1282.mills.edu (HELO mills.edu) (144.91.37.98) by ella.mills.edu with SMTP; 16 Mar 1998 18:17:13 -0800 Message-ID: <350DDC82.12D8C94D@mills.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:14:26 -0800 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: danryan@mills.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: mollusk post References: <980313.141222.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit danielle, mailing address? something on my desk wants to end up on yours.... dan From danryan@mills.edu Mon Mar 16 19:18:59 1998 Received: from ella.mills.edu (ella.mills.edu [144.91.3.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id TAA12683 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:18:56 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 18740 invoked from network); 16 Mar 1998 18:18:54 -0800 Received: from pc1282.mills.edu (HELO mills.edu) (144.91.37.98) by ella.mills.edu with SMTP; 16 Mar 1998 18:18:54 -0800 Message-ID: <350DDCE8.707FF370@mills.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:16:08 -0800 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: danryan@mills.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Social Movements workshop References: <980313.141222.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit danielle wrote: > This is an announcement that I hope people will send to any individuals > and/or lists they know about..... > > Thanks, > Danielle Currier at UConn > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Announcing a Social Movement workshop: > Social Movements and Society: Identity, Culture and Institutions > > August 19-21, 1998 (preceding the ASA meetings > University of California - Davis > > This workshop will bring together scholars who employ different > theoretical tools to address the connection between social movements and > the larger society. To promote extensive discussion time and > intellectual cross-fertilization, participants will divide into four > working groups for much of the conference. > > Working group topics: > > Movement Culture, Organizations, and Participants > The State, Movement Sectors, and Cycles of Protest > Movements, Culture, Democratization > Organizing, Social Movements and the Academy > > Workshop schedule: > > Wednesday, Aug. 19 - Convenes at 3 p.m.; opening plenary, banquet > Thursday, Aug. 20 - Full day of working group panels and discussions > Friday, Aug. 21 - Closing plenary, workshop ends at noon > > To present a paper at a working group session, send abstract to: > Jo Reger > 122 Lincoln Avenue > Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 > e-mail jreger@juno.com > DEADLINE: April 30, 1998 > > Registration deadline: June 15, 1998 > For registration information contact: > UC-Davis Conference and Event Services Registration Line 530/757-3331 > or Fax 530/757-7943 > **All members of the CBSM section of the ASA will be mailed registration > forms > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From danryan@mills.edu Mon Mar 16 19:21:54 1998 Received: from ella.mills.edu (ella.mills.edu [144.91.3.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id TAA12970 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:21:52 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 18933 invoked from network); 16 Mar 1998 18:21:50 -0800 Received: from pc1282.mills.edu (HELO mills.edu) (144.91.37.98) by ella.mills.edu with SMTP; 16 Mar 1998 18:21:50 -0800 Message-ID: <350DDD98.FE4C3F20@mills.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:19:04 -0800 From: Dan Ryan Reply-To: danryan@mills.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: just goes to show something, I'm sure... References: <980313.141222.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ok, so a momentary lapse led to a couple of quick clicks without looking up at that there TO line... apologies to one and all and thanks to the gods of cybernia who didn't let it happen with a message that Kenneth Starr might have had me over to testify about! :)an From DMC96005@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Mar 16 20:27:50 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id UAA14913 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:27:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8427; Mon, 16 Mar 98 22:27:55 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DMC96005@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1780; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:27:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 22:20:23 EST From: danielle Subject: Re: Interesting Question!!! To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980317031558.0067f4cc@yourinter.net> Message-Id: <980316.222158.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I agree with Chad about the label sociologist. There are certain things that one must "do" to be one, but practicing sociology and passing on a sociological way of thinking are criteria enough for me... If someone really wants to consider themselves a sociologist, then we should WELCOME her/him with open arms!!! That doesn't happen every day.... :) Danielle at UConn From harlowc@cats.ucsc.edu Mon Mar 16 20:42:13 1998 Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id UAA16588 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:42:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (tsb-16.UCSC.EDU [128.114.128.180]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with ESMTP id TAA07016 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:42:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <350DF025.429CAA5B@cats.ucsc.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:38:13 -0800 From: Christian Harlow MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Interesting Question!!! References: <980316.222158.EST.DMC96005@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit danielle wrote: > > I agree with Chad about the label sociologist. > There are certain things that one must "do" to be one, but practicing > sociology and passing on a sociological way of thinking are criteria > enough for me... > If someone really wants to consider themselves a sociologist, then > we should WELCOME her/him with open arms!!! That doesn't happen every > day.... :) > Thats sounds great but what about the problems of expert knowledge? Science (hard science) is the sole basis of most regulatory policy and limitations on the excesses of capital's mission ceaseless accumulation. How do we go about changing this to allow things such as popular epidemiology and lay common sense to affect change? When is this desirable or necessary? Christian From jvnix@dixie-net.com Mon Mar 16 21:07:47 1998 Received: from Dixie.dixie-net.com (dixie.dixie-net.com [209.136.164.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAA19888 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:07:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from dixie-net.com (p033.dixie-oxford.dixie-net.com [209.136.165.36]) by Dixie.dixie-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04357 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:07:41 -0600 Message-ID: <350DF6A4.7C7E422D@dixie-net.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:05:56 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Interesting Question!!! References: <1.5.4.32.19980317031558.0067f4cc@yourinter.net> <350DE944.30E5@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Snow wrote: > > Mary Jo Deegan in her book _Women in Sociology_ used the five criteria > established by Dirk Kasler to determine if a specific person was a > sociologist: > > 1. occupy a chair of sociology and/or teach sociology > 2. membership in a national sociological society > 3. coauthorship of sociological articles or textbooks > 4. self-definition as a sociologist > 5. definition by others as a sociologist > > You may of course agree or disagree with Kasler. > > Sharon Snow > Texas Woman's University > > Chad Kimmel wrote: > > > > > > > > I am a member of "applied sociology's" listserve, and recently came across > > this interesting question! I will include my response below, but am > > interested in what others would have to say. > > > > Chad. > > > > _____________ > > > > Dear Sir/Madam: > > > > I recently graduated with a BA. in sociology. Can I call myself a > > sociologist > > in correpsondence and cards etc., or would I have to join an association > > > > to do so? > > > > Please advise. > > > > Thank you. > > _______________________ > > > > My answer would be yes ! I would, with a BA in Sociology, call myself a > > Sociologist, only if I was working within or contributing to the > > dicipline/profession. Why should someone without a Graduate Degree in > > Sociology not be allowed to use this term. If someone feels they are > > educated enough, with the skills and experience, to carry the weight, then > > do it!!! I would, however, highly urge this person to join a professional > > association (i.e., ASA, SAS, etc..). > > > > More importanly, the question becomes, "what knowledge, skills, or > > experience do I posses that can help me, help others"? I am sure there are > > many BA's out there with equal or more knowledge of the dicipline than many > > Graduate students. This is sad, but true! > > > > What do you think! > > > > Chad... > > ***************************************************** > > Chad M. Kimmel > > Graduate Assistant/Data Manager > > Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) > > > > Indiana University of Pennsylvania > > 102 McElhaney Hall > > Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 > > > > ckimmel@yourinter.net > > http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel > > 724-463-7010 > > > > **************************************************** Hmm.... looking at this list makes me want to break out the 'ol CW Mills papers, become inspired, and bash away! Who exactly WAS kasler, and what was his claim to fame? I guess if I was a 'sociologist' I would already know ;-) -- JV Nix | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm BlackMage Dragon | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix -==(UDIC)==- | ---FOSTI--- ------------------------------- Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------------------------------------------------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------------------------------------------------------- From FLH8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Mon Mar 16 22:13:42 1998 Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.19]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id WAA21206 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:13:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803170513.WAA21206@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with BSMTP id 8363; Mon, 16 Mar 98 23:12:34 CST Received: from tamvm1.tamu.edu (NJE origin FLH8929@TAMVM1) by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0958; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:12:35 -0600 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 22:40:58 CST From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Re: When do you become a sociologist? To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:15:58 -0800 from The interesting question reminds me of a friend of mine who is a recovering alcoholic. Whenever anyone asks him how someone knows when they are an alcoholic, he replies: "I guess when they say they are. Before that they are just a drunk." So when does someone become a sociologist? When they say they are. I did ask myself this question when I graduated with a BS in 1988. At the time, that degree and 50 cents would get me a cup a coffee. (Now that same cup of coffee is over a dollar at most places!) The jobs available for a sociologist with a BS (or even MS) were unbelievably high stress and paid less than work I had done without a degree. We all know what BS stands for anyway and MS is just More of the Same. So I was prepared for the constant reminders that Ph.D. stands for Piled higher and Deeper! Seriously, this question is one which every sociologist should ask himself as well as learning what it means to our colleagues. My answer to when does someone becomes a sociologist is "when you say you are!" When in your head and your heart and your blood and your guts you are observing process and motion of the social world around you, then you are a sociologist. When you make a comment on some social occurrence and someone asks "Do you notice things like that because you are a sociologist?" and you answer, "No. I'm a sociologist because I notice things like that!" Then you are a sociologist. When someone asks, "Do people go into sociology because they want to find out what is wrong with themselves?" And you answer, "No. People go into psychology to find out what wrong with themselves. They go into sociology to find out what's wrong with everybody else." Then you are a sociologist. When you can explain why the Media call-in "polls" are invalid, and how they become a self-fulfilling prophecy, Then you are a sociologist. When you have a qualitative understanding of quantitative research data, then you are a sociologist. When you can apply social theory in practical ways, then you are a sociologist. When you have a strong desire to try to use your knowledge and education to help your fellows and to make this world just a little more comfortable place to live. Then you are a sociologist. When you realize that you are an equal part of this universe. No less than or no better than any other creature, Then you are... Well... Then you have my fullest admiration. Two things about this "job!" It doesn't pay well, but at least we know "why?" and When you observe the interactions of people as an occupation, you never get a moment away from the job! So you Better do it for a Loving and not a Living! Okie-Lone Star Grins from Granny Franny A Texas "Aggie from Muskogee" Oklahoma USA From Nogod1@aol.com Tue Mar 17 00:00:08 1998 Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA24230 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:00:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from Nogod1@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GRHDa11553 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:59:57 -0500 (EST) From: Nogod1 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:59:57 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Interesting Question!!! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I figured I would throw my thoughts into this discussion on what makes one a Sociologist. 1) If you find yourself working on something that 99.9999% of the world could care less about. 2) You receive little to no money or recognition for this work. 3) You for some reason, still believe that your work is somehow critical to humanity 4) Finally, if you understand what the hell Parson's is talking about, then...... you are a Sociologist and may god have mercy on your soul. Wondering if Marx was cuter with or without the beard, Vincent Bruzzese From tr@tryoung.com Tue Mar 17 04:55:34 1998 Received: from ntserver3.sensible-net.com (ntserver3.sensible-net.com [208.18.224.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id EAA01526 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 04:55:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.33]) by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA260 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:58:58 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980317065224.00815b10@tryoung.com> X-Sender: tr@tryoung.com Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:52:24 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: On Being a Sociologist In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980317031558.0067f4cc@yourinter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree with Chad: Being a sociologist is a verb, not a noun; a career, not a title; a way of looking at things, not a way of appearing on paper. There are a lot of people who call themselves sociologists who are more in politics, in patriarchy, in euro-centric culture than in that knowledge process we call our science. just do it! TR At 07:15 PM 3/16/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >I am a member of "applied sociology's" listserve, and recently came across >this interesting question! I will include my response below, but am >interested in what others would have to say. > >Chad. > >_____________ > >Dear Sir/Madam: > >I recently graduated with a BA. in sociology. Can I call myself a >sociologist >in correpsondence and cards etc., or would I have to join an association > >to do so? > >Please advise. > >Thank you. >_______________________ > > >My answer would be yes ! I would, with a BA in Sociology, call myself a >Sociologist, only if I was working within or contributing to the >dicipline/profession. Why should someone without a Graduate Degree in >Sociology not be allowed to use this term. If someone feels they are >educated enough, with the skills and experience, to carry the weight, then >do it!!! I would, however, highly urge this person to join a professional >association (i.e., ASA, SAS, etc..). > >More importanly, the question becomes, "what knowledge, skills, or >experience do I posses that can help me, help others"? I am sure there are >many BA's out there with equal or more knowledge of the dicipline than many >Graduate students. This is sad, but true! > >What do you think! > >Chad... >***************************************************** >Chad M. Kimmel >Graduate Assistant/Data Manager >Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) > >Indiana University of Pennsylvania >102 McElhaney Hall >Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 > >ckimmel@yourinter.net >http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel >724-463-7010 > >**************************************************** > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From aiaware@erols.com Tue Mar 17 05:57:42 1998 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA02940 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 05:57:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from p133wrkstn (207-172-112-97.s97.tnt4.ann.erols.com [207.172.112.97]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA06821 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:57:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <350E72C2.6E47@erols.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:55:30 -0500 From: "Angela J. Ware" Reply-To: aiaware@erols.com MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: When do you become a sociologist? References: <199803170513.WAA21206@csf.Colorado.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too find this question (and our various responses) interesting and important. I tend to use the word more often to refer to individuals who "see sociologically." This may indeed contribute to the delegitimation of our discipline and profession (and I will continue to consider my definition for quite some time, I am sure). But let me share an experience this thread reminded me of. 8 long years ago in my first intro soc. course, I met with my professor (now friend) to discuss declaring sociology as my major and what I needed *to do* to *become* a sociologist. Her reply was, "you are already a sociologist ... you simply need a Ph.D." Well, I defended my dissertation last Friday and now have the PhD, but she really was right. Even then -- hundreds of books ago -- I was tuned into the sociological perspective/imagination before I ever knew what it was ... and so are many of my students now. It seems for me, formal sociological study has fine-tuned (and perhaps legitmated to some degree) the observations, explanations, and solutions I already recognized. Best Regards, Angela From FLH8929@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU Tue Mar 17 15:27:16 1998 Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU [128.194.103.19]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id PAA00705; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:27:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803172227.PAA00705@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: from TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with BSMTP id 1444; Tue, 17 Mar 98 16:26:06 CST Received: from tamvm1.tamu.edu (NJE origin FLH8929@TAMVM1) by TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5662; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:26:07 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 98 15:42:59 CST From: "Frances L. Haynes" Subject: Antinomics of "being a sociologist" To: Christian Harlow , Sociology Graduate Students -- International , owner-socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:38:13 -0800 from Without waxing "Too Alexandrian" and seeing the questions as either a duality, or "horns of a dilemma," the question raised by Christian could lead "us" to duelling over a false dichotomy OR towards dealing with the realities of the paradoxical situation we have on hand. In deed, those of us who have leapt into this discussion seem to have a collective conscience on the essence of being a sociologist. So I bring up the parallel issue of the on-going problem of maintaining flexibility and openess for REAL sociology to be done, while avoiding the pitfalls of extremists. Analytical BS Soc may occur at either end of the so-called quantitative-qualitative spectrum. If all comers go out to the media and call themselves "sociologists" then all of us may be easily discredited in the process. A particular role-model, mentor of mine is an excellent sociologist. He does sociology in a style which I admire and which he does very well. However, I cannot and will not do what he does. Most of you would probably see him as an epitome of white, English/European, male, sociology. He does have a number of redeeming qualities though. In one particular conversation I was bemoaning an article written in a flambouyent style which suffered in many ways from lack of substance. The logic was flawed, but the style could easily lead the reader to gloss over not only the lack of logic, but the illogic of the argument. Since my writing style lends itself to such "error" I was struggling. As I complained about the author's "credentials" as a sociologist as well as my own fear of becoming like that, the Professor replied; The easiest thing in the world to do is "Bad" sociology. Which leads to the NEW question: How do "WE" who claim the name of sociologist, both in essence and through 'official label' maintain integrity, dignity, and ethical boundaries in such a way that our "un-disciplined" discipline can flourish? Because "we" here on Soc Grad dare to delve into the issues, and because we are willing to ask the questions, I have much more hope for the future of whatever we are, than I did (and do) when dealing with some of the others (even ProSITs- Professional Sociologists-in-training ) Sociologists who dwell in numbers scare me the most, because too often they do not have the foggiest idea of what the qualitative meaning of their quantitative data is. But only someone who does know what those numbers mean can confront them on their own ground. Those sociologist of the pase were sometimes house-trained to go in boxes. Others decided that all boxes were 'evil' so let's kick the whole house down. They thought they had the questions and were looking for answers. We know we don't know the questions, so we are willing to ask them! My personal experience has been that such is the way to building a much larger and more beautiful structure! If you will pardon the use of a Biblical analogy, Jesus put it in terms of the head of a household who goes into the storeroom and brings out the best of what is NEW AND OLD! Whether you believe in the divinity of this teacher or not, he was a pretty smart guy. He might have called himself a "sociologist" if the term had been a part of his Aramaic language. In fact, I think he might have been one of the best sociologists who ever lived. Then again, Shakespeare comes close. But the patron saint of sociology for today would have to be-Patrick! Blessings to all ye lads and lassies who get to claim to be One of Us! Adios, so-long, etc- What is Celtic for Parting? Frances Haynes (apparently from the line of Haynes' out of Galway Ireland) *************************************** On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:38:13 -0800 you said: >danielle wrote: >> >> I agree with Chad about the label sociologist. >> There are certain things that one must "do" to be one, but practicing >> sociology and passing on a sociological way of thinking are criteria >> enough for me... >> If someone really wants to consider themselves a sociologist, then >> we should WELCOME her/him with open arms!!! That doesn't happen every >> day.... :) >> > >Thats sounds great but what about the problems of expert knowledge? >Science (hard science) is the sole basis of most regulatory policy and >limitations on the excesses of capital's mission ceaseless accumulation. >How do we go about changing this to allow things such as popular >epidemiology and lay common sense to affect change? When is this >desirable or necessary? > >Christian From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Mar 17 18:55:06 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA07789 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:55:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1349; Tue, 17 Mar 98 20:55:11 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 3726; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:55:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 98 20:33:43 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: What is a sociologist? To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980317.204914.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On one of the sociology of religion lists (4 lists for 500 specialists?), there is a discussion over what is religion, and how does one adjudicate claims as to what religion is -- by what authority do you or don't you tell someone who gets up at 5:00 AM on a Sunday morning to drive to a football stadium 3 hours away, attends a tailgate party for 3 hours prior to the game, watches the game, and gets home at 8:00 PM that what they are doing may or may not count as religion. What I like to tell folks (including students) Sociology is about is the ability to see that very few things happen solely b/c of individual actions and very few predicaments are solely individual predicaments. To realize this, one, of course, need not be a credentialed Sociologist (although credentialed Sociologists like to have a gatekeeping role). In fact, I would argue that most working class and some middle class folks who have ever been to college are able to think sociologically. One might even argue, as folks like Russ Jacoby have, that the whole professionalization of Sociology gets in the way of thinking sociologically -- especially considering sociologists tend to think very little about their own privilege as a professional class in society. From teegy@hotmail.com Tue Mar 17 23:12:32 1998 Received: from hotmail.com (f133.hotmail.com [207.82.251.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id XAA22183 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:12:30 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 29870 invoked by uid 0); 18 Mar 1998 06:12:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19980318061229.29869.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 137.132.1.30 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:12:27 PST X-Originating-IP: [137.132.1.30] From: "Teegy TG" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: What is a sociologist? (Quite long) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:12:27 PST The question of "what is or is not a sociologist" has often got me into thinking (sociologically, hopefully) as well and inevitably, it would also lead to the question of "what *is* sociology?". Despite being in the discipline for more than 4 years, I often have problems trying to describe "sociology" or what I am doing as a sociologist to people I meet. (It's like trying to describe the taste of durians to people who have never tasted the fruit before. Yet, even those who have tasted it would describe it differently) And yet, I can recognise a good piece of sociological argument if I see one.... But I do agree that not all "professional" sociologists are sociological in their thinking and that sometimes, those who have no formal dealings with the discipline can exhibit great sociological imagination, though it's difficult enough to find good sociologists nowadays, professional or not. There are those sociologists who condemn loudly against the corporatisation of the discipline but only to perpetuate it in real life. A more concrete example would be the fact that despite being at the forefront of speaking out against all kinds of prejudices and biases, we still see a very eurocentric representation in sociological literature. Mediocre works published by "top universities" in "top soci journals" get more attention than brilliant studies done in some obscure country published in an unknown journal. I mean, how many of you have actually read or seen a copy of the Journal of South-East Asian Studies before? (Not trying to slam anyone here, since often, it's the sheer inaccessiblity of such literature that's the problem) And then, there are those who would rather forsake the title of being a "sociologist" than to be uncritical of the increasing institutionalisation of sociology. Perhaps sociology is one of the few disciplines that has a self-critical tool embedded within and this is what sustains its survival so far. One can only imagine the dilemna Durkheim was in when he tried to establish sociology as an academic discipline. I don't think I can ever give a clear and precise definition to what makes a sociologist or what sociology is. But I do know that the day someone successfully (ie. officially) does so is also the time for us to place an obituary for sociology and all sociologists in the American Journal of Sociology....;-) Y W Neo (Yes, I was the one who embarrassed myself by ranting away the other time) National University of Singapore 10 Kent Ridge Crescent Singapore 119269 P.S. Actually, what really gets me is when someone says to me,"Doing sociology? Oh, so you're into social work..." URRRGH!!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sharons1@airmail.net Wed Mar 18 10:11:37 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id KAA16973 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:11:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.53.201] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Wed, 18 Mar 98 11:11:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <35101505.403C@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:40:05 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: theory? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question for the list to mull over. I'm doing my thesis on a sociologist from the late 19th, early 20th century. I've been told by one of my professors that this person generated social theory but not sociological theory. I'm not sure I know what the difference is. Anyone else have a handle on it? Sharon From c646827@showme.missouri.edu Wed Mar 18 11:54:49 1998 Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA25354 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:53:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from showme.missouri.edu (ts-1-ip36.kc.sky.net [209.90.4.100]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA200550 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:52:45 -0600 Message-ID: <351016CB.3AED7505@showme.missouri.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:47:39 -0600 From: Brent Myer MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: theory? References: <35101505.403C@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Ask your professor for a definition of theory. There are a group of people that make a distinction between scientific theory and philosophy/social theory. Weber, Marx, and Durkheim were all social theoriests. Gibbs, Jasso, and Reynolds produce sociological theory. They key here is a logico-deductive model of knowledge production. You know, theory is a set of logically related statements that are operationalized into testable hypotheses. Anything that does not take this form is just social theory--not science. At least that's what this group of people claim. -Brent Sharon Snow wrote: > A question for the list to mull over. I'm doing my thesis on a > sociologist from the late 19th, early 20th century. I've been told by > one of my professors that this person generated social theory but not > sociological theory. I'm not sure I know what the difference is. > Anyone else have a handle on it? > > Sharon From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Wed Mar 18 16:13:41 1998 Received: from scf-fs.usc.edu (scf-fs.usc.edu [128.125.253.183]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA05903 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:13:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from hal (ciscoserv-230-104.usc.edu [128.125.230.104]) by scf-fs.usc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/usc) with ESMTP id PAA17994 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:13:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803182313.PAA17994@scf-fs.usc.edu> From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: theory? Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:05:53 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting question on sociological theory versus social theory especially considering our (I think it was this list) discussion of what's/who's a sociologist. My first thought is this may be about policing boundries. If anyone can theorize about the social what is it that we (sociologists) do better? You might look at Lemert's book "Social theory". In the intro he talks about how we all theorize about our social world. Not surprizingly this is an inclusive book subtitled "Multicultural and Classic Readings" Also, Steve Seidman, on the first page of an article states, "Sociological theory will be revitalized if and when it becomes "social theory"". I can't remember what his distinction is but its an interesting article. In the same issue Jeffery Alexander gives a rebuttel. Both are interesting to consider even if one is not as postmodern as Seidman or as scientific as Alexander. Both articles are in Sociological Theory, 9:2 Fall 1991 I'd be curious to know the theorist and the politics of your professor. I suspect a mismatch as this may be a way to discredit someone. We may all resort to this with those whom we don't agree with. Then again, this might be a valid criticism. I've said that there isn't much sociology in either Comte or Spencer, as interesting as they might be in other ways (and could still be studied sociologicaly). Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: Sharon Snow > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: theory? > Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 10:40 AM > > A question for the list to mull over. I'm doing my thesis on a > sociologist from the late 19th, early 20th century. I've been told by > one of my professors that this person generated social theory but not > sociological theory. I'm not sure I know what the difference is. > Anyone else have a handle on it? > > Sharon From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 18 18:17:54 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA13511 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:17:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3827; Wed, 18 Mar 98 20:17:58 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 5562; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:17:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 20:06:16 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: social theory vs. sociological theory To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980318.201200.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't know if the main difference rests in the ability to derive testable hypotheses or not -- I think the real difference (for those who push the existence of such a difference) is sociological theory is motivated by the desire to generate hypotheses and the potential that sociology can discover truths about the world through such activity -- social theory refers to the more general effort that folks like Mills and Denzin talk about -- getting folks to realize that the reason for why their situations are what they are is structural, and lies in broader social structures. From sharons1@airmail.net Thu Mar 19 12:22:09 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA09705 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:21:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.46.17] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Thu, 19 Mar 98 13:19:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3511849D.6425@airmail.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:48:30 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: theory? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don - my thesis is on Charlotte Perkins Gilman. For those of you who don't know of her (policing boundaries?), she was a sociologist and feminist who wrote seven books and many articles of social theory. Her most well known work is _Women and Economics_. She was basically a Marxist and saw the economic inequality between women and men as the most pressing problem facing society. She thought it lead to problems in the family as well as depriving society of the contributions of half of the population. Many of her ideas and "solutions" have come to pass, women working, take-out meals, professional child care, professional house cleaners who did not reside in the household. One of the weaknesses of her theory is that she basically wrote and theorized about middle-class women's lives and failed to take into account the actualities of working class families. For the most part she (like Jane Addams, Harriett Martineau, and other women) has been forgotten by sociology. Gilman is primarily claimed by literature for her poetry and fiction and by women's studies for her feminist writings. Your point about policing the boundaries is well taken and that certainly has been done to women sociologist as well as other marginalized groups. When I get a clarification from my professor I'll pass it along to the group. Sharon From sharons1@airmail.net Thu Mar 19 12:31:55 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA10108 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:31:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.46.17] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Thu, 19 Mar 98 13:31:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <35118767.7DF@airmail.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:00:24 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: theory? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the replies to the distinction between social and sociological theory. I've asked my professor to clarify and for permission to post his response to the list. We're on spring break so it will probably be next week but will pass the answer along. Sharon Snow Texas Woman's University From ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Thu Mar 19 12:41:02 1998 Received: from ATHENA.RIPON.EDU (acad.ripon.edu [143.109.2.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id MAA10549; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:40:53 -0700 (MST) From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Received: from Acad.Ripon.EDU by Acad.Ripon.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #24275) id <01IUUOQ60CKGAIBXPB@Acad.Ripon.EDU>; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:43:54 CST Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:28:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Advices on Finding The Right Grad School To: psn@csf.colorado.edu, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01IUUPD15D4AAIBXPB@Acad.Ripon.EDU> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Members of PSN and SOCGRAD list: My name is Alex Arifianto and I am a junior sociology major from ripon College. Currently, I am seriously considering to obtain a Ph.D in Sociology, but often I'm confused on what kind of programs should I apply to in order to meet my interest. I hope some of you can provide my some suggestions/advices on this. My field of interests right now is Sociology of Immigration, Political Sociology, Economic Sociology, and Sociology of Globalization / World Systems. I have taken courses in research methods and I am currently writing my senior thesis on Ripon College student's attitudes toward immigration (I have posted a question about this before). I am planning to study off-campus in Washington,DC next fall, as part of Washington Semester Program. There, i plan to take a graduate course in Social Policy Analysis.I'm taking my GRE on April 4th of this year. I want your suggestions on the following: 1) Sociology graduate programs in the U.S. that are famous from doing research parrallel to my interest areas above.Plus famous faculty members specializing in my fields that you think I should have contact with. 2) Emerging areas in sociology where you think there's a shortage of sociologists doing research on them right now. Since I am interested in globalization and Sociology of Asian nations, please let me know whether there are shortages in these two areas right now (a shortage would be beneficial for me, for it would be easier for me to get a job in these areas). 3) Any other ideas/suggestions that might be useful in my graduate school planning. Thank you for your assistance. I will certainly appreciate it. Sincerely, Alex Arifianto Alexander R. Arifianto, Ripon College (class of 1999) 600 Campus Drive, Unit # 21, Ripon, WI 54971, USA Phone: 1-920-745-7617 E-mail: arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu GO RED HAWKS!! SOCIOLOGY AND ECON RULE!! From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Mar 19 13:05:02 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id NAA11868 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:04:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5773; Thu, 19 Mar 98 15:05:06 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6798; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:05:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 14:54:12 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Social class and graduate work To: grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU cc: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980319.145908.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On one of the nationwide graduate student lists, there has been an interesting discussion over the last couple of days over what role the social class of a graduate student makes in decisions to continue graduate work, especially if they have reached a point where they are no longer receiving money from their departments -- are students from certain social backgrounds more or less likely to continue their graduate work, even if it means taking loans or multiple gypsy jobs to survive, or are they more likely to quit graduate work in the short or long-term in the process. If there is discussion on this, I will tell folks what the consensus seems to be. From pfl661@airmail.net Thu Mar 19 13:14:17 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id NAA12948 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:14:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from phyllis-flott from [207.136.54.115] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Thu, 19 Mar 98 14:14:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <35117B7A.50A7@airmail.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:09:30 -0600 From: "Phyllis L. Flott" Reply-To: pfl661@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: theory and class References: <3511849D.6425@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to take this topic in a different direction. I often see the terms 'middle class' and 'working class' used to describe different groups of people in the US. My question is who are we talking about when we say middle class? If there is an upper class, middle class, working class, and underclass, how can the middle class be in the middle of four catagories? Is middle class a code word for Yuppies or professional class? With ownership of IRAs, profit sharing, and EOSPs, who is working class and who's not seems to be unclear. Where do rural people fit into this class structure? While we tell undergrads about power, property and prestige, it seems that class is usually boiled down to occupation. I'm not criticizing Sharon's comments. They just bring to mind this issue of class and who goes where. Many of the "advances" listed in Sharon's posts would be helpful to working class women. When I look at the explanations for this in the intro book we use, I'm not sure I buy their definition of class. It seems like we throw this term around alot but what do we really mean? Class implies that it is a division of a larger unit. What unit? Is class national, regional, or something measured at the community level? So, was I asleep when the explanation of class was covered or is anyone else uncomfortable with this term? Phyllis Sharon Snow wrote: > > Don - my thesis is on Charlotte Perkins Gilman. For those of you who > don't know of her (policing boundaries?), she was a sociologist and > feminist who wrote seven books and many articles of social theory. snip One of the weaknesses of her theory is that she basically wrote and theorized about middle-class women's lives and failed to take into account the actualities of working class families. > > Sharon From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Mar 19 13:52:13 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id NAA14337 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:52:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5993; Thu, 19 Mar 98 15:52:17 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6908; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:52:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 15:45:57 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: GSL: On "Class," "First Generation Students", and Further Research (fwd) To: grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU cc: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980319.154619.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thought some folks might be interested ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:42:28 -0800 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Scott Kerlin Subject: GSL: On "Class," "First Generation Students", and Further Research To: AERA-GSL@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU Hello, everyone: Please forgive the length of this posting but I hope the contents will prove worthwhile for any of you interested in researching issues of social stratification and class in higher education (this is one of my favorite topics!). I have been following this thread closely in part because my initial motivation in doing graduate studies was in the field of critical sociology, where I did quite a bit of study on social stratification issues. I was in the sociology department at the U of Oregon which (at least in the early 1980s) had a critical mass (pun intended!) of faculty who were interested in issues of stratification and critical, theoretical, political approaches to understanding the multiple causes and consequences of social stratification in American society and its institutions. I'd like to recommend the work of Dwight Lang, who was a Ph.D. recipient from the U of O sociology program in the 1980s, who conducted quite a bit of research about class and social mobility issues in academe. I have his publications cited in my 1995 AERA Paper/ EPAA article "Pursuit of the Ph.D.: 'Survival of the Fittest, or is it Time for a New Approach"? for any of you who wish to locate the cites. >From my experience, there has always been a need for greater depth of inquiry into issues of class differences in our society and education's role in addressing (or ignoring, or reproducing, depending upon your perspective) class stratification. I devoted a page on my website to "The Incredible Shrinking Middle Class" to begin an online inquiry where I had left off in using printed resources (see http://www.teleport.com/~skerlin/june.html). I believe this topic is a major issue for the academy which, after all, certainly has a stake in perpetuating the "idea" that people can become (or remain) middle class with a college education. It's the American Dream, the Horatio Alger idea that if you just work hard enough, you too can have a "piece of the rock". I think we have a long way to go in understanding the nature of "downward mobility" and "structural unemployment" that was so much a product of the 1980s for large numbers of Americans. Some economists (e.g. David Gordon, Richard Bowles, Richard Edwards, Tom Weisskopf) have called this "labor market segmentation theory" and a few researchers have applied it to research on the academic labor market (i.e. why there are so many part-time faculty being hired these days). Notable authors that come to mind when I think about my own intellectual inquiry into class issues and education are Martin Carnoy, Henry Giroux, Stanley Aronowitz (see his "Taxonomy of Teacher Work" chapter in his book, __The Jobless Future: Sci-Tech and the Dogma of Work_ that he co-authored with William DiFazio and published for the U of Mn. Press in 1994; also see his book _Education Under Siege_ co-authored with Henry Giroux and published in 1986); Sennett and Cobb's classic book _The Hidden Injuries of Class_ which dates back to the early 1970s but still offers many valuable insights into the psychological consequences of class differences in U.S. society; Ryan and Sackrey's now classic book (originally published by South End Press in the early 1980s and recently produced in a second edition under a different publisher), _Strangers in Paradise: Academics from the Working Class_, and the Dews and Law book already mentioned by Joyce, _This Fine Place So Far From Home_, published by Temple University Press in 1994 or 1995. There are also many authors who have explored "the busy intersection between race and class" because race and class issues are often powerfully intertwined. I would also like to offer another indicator or perspective on researching the "class" issue in academe: the study of experiences among "first-generation students." When I was collecting my data for producing "Pursuit of the Ph.D.", I used the annual Doctoral Records Project reports of the National Research Council that I mentioned in my last posting. But I also contacted Lori Thurgood at the NRC who, at the time (1995), was the principal data specialist working with the doctoral records project and who had offered to run special data sets for me if I needed them. At the time, I wanted to determine the proportions of doctoral recipients from the 1993 graduating cohort (nationwide) who were from "working class" backgrounds. I had used Dwight Lang's articles (noted above) to help me frame my perspective, but needed more evidence about class issues in doctoral education. Well, the NRC couldn't supply me with data about the "class" background of students who graduated (as some of you may have learned from sociological research already, the measurement of "class" is anything but an exact science and the NRC survey of doctoral recipients asked questions about background of parents' educations, not students' class identities), but they *did* provide a printout of students based on differentiating "first-generation college graduates" from other Ph.D. recipients who had come from families in which at least one parent had a college degree. Recently I came across a flyer here at Portland State, produced jointly by the PSU Educational Opportunity, Educational Equity, and Academic Support Programs, that was written thus: __________________________________________________________________________ Are you a "First Generation Student?"* *First Generation is defined as being the first one in the family to receive a degree from a four-year institution of higher education. "If you are a first-generation student, studies have shown you may face certain barriers to college success regardless of intelligence or aptitude. Some common challenges you may face include the following: * Breakaway guilt--you may have conflicting feelings when choosing a path different than your parents or siblings * Your family support system lacks a realistic understanding of the requirements of college * Personal growth is seen as loss: First generation students fear loss of love and approval from family as their self-concept changes, and they are exposed to new ideas and beliefs * First generation students are less committed to the "role" of student--dropping out to return to the work environment becomes a logical consequence * Employment has a higher priority--balancing work with school becomes difficult and first-generation students are less likely to risk the employee/employer relationship * First generation students are less likely to recognize the intrinsic value of education and seek acquisition of measurable job skills * First generation students are more likely to live off campus and feel isolated and not "part of" the University environment * First generation students are more likely to be lacking in knowledge about policies, procedures, and college structures due to lack of family experience in the academic world. They are less likely to make use of college resources as a result." __________________________________________________________________________ I recently interviewed a staff member of PSU's Educational Opportunity Program and she said that in her experience, it goes without saying that few students who begin as first-generation students ever go on "all the way to doctoral study", much less complete it. Yet from my recollection, almost 50 % of the doctoral recipients in the 1993 database of the Doctoral Records Project *were* first-generation college graduates (someone please correct me if I am wrong on these figures). I'm curious about the post-doctoral career patterns of Ph.D's who are first-generation versus non-first generation grads. Has anyone been studying this? I'm looking forward to continued dialogue on this topic! Scott Kerlin co-host, AERA-GSL skerlin@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~skerlin/ P.S. Someone raised a note about a researcher who recently completed a Ph.D. dissertation from U of Maryland on the topic of ABDs. I believe the person to whom you are referring is Barbara Lovitts. She has shared a copy of her dissertation with Bobbi and me, and I believe she is working still at the office of the Graduate School at the Maryland/College Park campus. She presented a paper at AERA last year entitled, "Who is Responsible for Doctoral Student Attrition: The Student, or the Institution?" From ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Thu Mar 19 14:39:34 1998 Received: from ATHENA.RIPON.EDU (acad.ripon.edu [143.109.2.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA18037 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:39:12 -0700 (MST) From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Received: from Acad.Ripon.EDU by Acad.Ripon.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #24275) id <01IUUT8QZQUOAIBZ8K@Acad.Ripon.EDU> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:42:10 CST Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:35:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:54:12 -0500 (EST)" <980319.145908.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01IUUTHNI7JCAIBZ8K@Acad.Ripon.EDU> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Dear Mr Davidson, I'd like to make some comments on your posting. I'm not in graduate school yet, so I don't know the social class of the typical students there. I do know from my observation in my college that those who decide to pursue advance degrees in grad school tend to come from uper-middle class background. I also noticed that students from lower-class background in my college tend to have problems in their college career, more likely to drop out, and less likely to pursue graduate work right away (reasons: burnt out, don't have money, etc.). Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital (strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable them to successfully complete grad school, something that many lower-class students are lacking. Sincerely, Alex Arifianto Alexander R. Arifianto, Ripon College (class of 1999) 600 Campus Drive, Unit # 21, Ripon, WI 54971, USA Phone: 1-920-745-7617 E-mail: arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu GO RED HAWKS!! SOCIOLOGY AND ECON RULE!! From meisel@sobek.Colorado.EDU Thu Mar 19 14:58:04 1998 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA19810 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:58:01 -0700 (MST) Received: (from meisel@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id OAA29016; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:57:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:57:59 -0700 (MST) From: Meisel Joshua To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work In-Reply-To: <01IUUTHNI7JCAIBZ8K@Acad.Ripon.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alex, "Lower-class students lack a strong work ethic and support from parents or peers????????" That's quite a generalization which must certainly have been misphrased??? a middle-class student with a terrible work ethic, Josh On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 ARIFIANTOA@acad.ripon.edu wrote: > Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that > upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably > because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital > (strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable > them to successfully complete grad school, something that many > lower-class students are lacking. > > Sincerely, > > Alex Arifianto From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Thu Mar 19 15:16:59 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id PAA21803 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:16:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6241; Thu, 19 Mar 98 17:16:59 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9437; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:16:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 17:16:44 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: ABD E-mail list (fwd) To: GSS , grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU, socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980319.171658.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:12:09 -0600 Reply-To: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum Sender: Graduate Studies Discussion Forum From: Tor Neilands Subject: ABD E-mail list To: AERA-GSL@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU << start forwarded material>> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:17:22 -0600 From: ABD Survival Guide Subject: NEW: abdsurvivalguide-list - ALL-BUT-DISSERTATION SURVIVAL GUIDE abdsurvivalguide-list on Majordomo@mentorcoach.com The "All-But-Dissertation Survival Guide" is a free monthly e-mail newsletter intended for graduate students/doctoral candidates/academics who are working on their dissertations. Once a month (or a little more often) you'll receive a succinct article devoted to practical strategies for successfully completing your doctoral dissertation. We will focus on ways to overcome the inevitable obstacles you'll face along the dissertation marathon including the twin devils of all dissertations: writer's block and procrastination. We'll have periodic interviews with highly productive scholars uncovering the tips and secrets they wish they'd known at the beginning of their own careers. And we'll never forget the special challenges of the isolated, off-campus, working ABD. Our goal is to speed you on your way toward your doctorate and, in the process, to enhance the skills you'll need for a lifetime of academic productivity. TO SUBSCRIBE: Either sign up at http://www.ecoach.com/subscribe.htm or send an E-mail to majordomo@mentorcoach.com with the SUBJECT line blank. In the BODY write: subscribe abdsurvivalguide-list This is a BROADCAST-ONLY LIST in order to keep the content of high quality. The mailing list is confidential and will NOT be resold. Web: http://www.eCoach.com Owner: ABD Survival Guide << end forwarded material>> Tor Neilands, Ph.D. Statistical Services/TeamWeb Academic Computing and Instructional Technology Services (ACITS), UT-Austin E-mail: t.neilands@cc.utexas.edu WWW: http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~neilands/index.html Don't let the statistical tail wag the conceptual dog From xuying@asu.edu Thu Mar 19 16:33:16 1998 Received: from post5.inre.asu.edu (post5.inre.asu.edu [129.219.110.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA24411 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:33:14 -0700 (MST) From: xuying@asu.edu Received: from general5.asu.edu by asu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24133) with ESMTP id <01IUUV9Y687A96WI27@asu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:33:13 MST Received: from general5.asu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by general5.asu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12687 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:33:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:33:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: ROOMATE NEEDED X-Sender: xuying@general5.asu.edu To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is Ying Xu, a graduate student in the department of sociology at Arizona State University. I am going to Chicago on Apr.2-4 to attend the annual meeting of Population Association of Americam and I need a female student to share a room in the hotel. If anybody interests, please contact me as soon as possiable. Thanks a lot! Ying Xu From mherman@U.Arizona.EDU Thu Mar 19 17:16:25 1998 Received: from f1n4.u.arizona.edu (f1n4.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.104]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA25821 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:16:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (mherman@localhost) by f1n4.u.arizona.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA50322 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:16:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:16:14 -0700 (MST) From: Max A Herman To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Relations between African-Americans and Immigrants (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:29:50 -0600 (CST) > From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU > Reply-To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Relations between African-Americans and Immigrants > > Members of PSN and SOCGRAD mailing lists: > > There is an interesting article on February 1998 edition of the American > Sociological Review. Its titled "Immigration, race, and Riot: the 1992 > Los Angeles Uprising" by Albert Bergsen abd Max Herman (University of > Arizona). The conclusion of this article is that rapid influx of > immigration in East Central LA contributed to hostility between African > American and immigrant (mostly Hispanic and Asian) residents of the > area. In my view, this supports one of the hypothesis of attitudes > toward immigrants that regradless of one's race background, one who have > settled for a long time in an area /country will develop hostilities > toward newer immigrants who settle in that area/country. The fact that > there is tensions between African-Americans and ne immigrant groups from > Latin America and Asia is very interesting, since little research has been > done on this and the research results tend to be inconsistent on this > topic. > > I want to know your opinions on this. Please comment on the hypothesis > above. Then you can explain in your view on factors that causes friction > between African-American and immigrants from Latin America and Asia. > Finally, since I always interested in finding solutions, I want to find > out your proposed solution on this problem, since I think the fact that > the article seems to indicate that there's a lot of tension between > minority groups in the U.S is depressing. Ideally, I think this group > should understand their position in American society (that they all > minorities and that many Caucasian thought of these groups as racially > inferior) and that they should help each other when they are being > attacked by Anglo majority, not bickering with each other like now. I > want to hear your thoughts on this. Thank you. > > --Alex Arifianto > > > As co-author of the recent ASR article on the Los Angeles Riot I share your concern about the seemingly depressing conclusion that our research suggests. The process of relative newcomers battling with more recent arrivals for scraps provided by a still Anglo dominated society is one with a long history. My doctoral thesis examines how this process played out earlier in the 20th century when black migrants moved North in search of better jobs and a better life only to be opposed by immigrants who themselves had arrived in the US only a few decades earlier. These recent immigrants, Poles, Italians, and Irish fought to be included in the American Dream but also bought into American style racism as well, seen as part and parcel of attaining that dream. Such beliefs led to tragic results in the Chicago Riot of 1919, the Detroit Riot of 1943 and numerous other riot events of that time. I argue that this process it general and that in the last few decades Miami (1980) and Los Angeles (1992) we are seing the same thing all over again. So what can be done? A recent book by Bill Piatt entitled Black and Brown in America: The Case For Cooperation (New York University) puts forth several ideas to heal the emerging rift between Latino and African Americans. In some sense he is suggesting nothing short of a new Civil Rights movement modelled on the problematic but fruitful alliance forged among African Americans and Jews in earlier decades. In chapter 9 Piatt states that both blacks and Latinos should reaffirm their mutual identities as non-white peoples, seek to understand each others suffering,avoid oppressing one another and look for progressive white allies in their struggle against racism. Most importantly perhaps, he suggests that Latinos and African Americans should create and share economic opprtunities with one another. Perhaps cultural understanding and economic cooperation can break the present cycle of violence. I welcome your comments. -Max Herman > > From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Thu Mar 19 18:04:48 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id SAA28215 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:04:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id UAA09113; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:04:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:04:44 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: theory and class (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Phyllis, Individuals can exist in multiple classes. Social class is a structural location not an individual designation. That individuals stand between classes (in contradictory locations or whatever) does not obviate the objective structural reality of class relations (which I take as the implication of these comments). Middle class is a historically contingent and changing category, and it depends on the historical period, mode of production, constitution of the social formation, etc.. At an initial level of approximation we can say there is the old middle class and the new middle class in the US. The old middle is the petty bourgeoisie. The new middle class (ain't so new) is the managerial-professional class. This latter location is in a much more structurally contradictory level than is the petty bourgeoisie, who are more or less small capitalists and petty commodity producers. The new middle class finds that they do not own but *control* production means. This doesn't upset too much the relational understanding of class structure, but it does raise important lines of research. I would stress that these are heuristics; the world is more complex than this. My post is an oversimplification. In any case, these matters must be understood historically and dialectically, not as rigid schemes superimposed over an ontologically unitary and complex and shifting reality. Andy > From Andrea_Ferris@brown.edu Thu Mar 19 21:24:07 1998 Received: from golden.brown.edu (golden.brown.edu [128.148.128.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAA03604 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:24:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from Andrea_Ferris.brown.edu (cis-ts8-slip1.cis.brown.edu [128.148.19.140]) by golden.brown.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25018 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:23:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980319232448.006a94f0@postoffice.brown.edu> X-Sender: Andrea_Ferris@postoffice.brown.edu Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:24:48 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Andrea Ferris Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work In-Reply-To: <01IUUTHNI7JCAIBZ8K@Acad.Ripon.EDU> References: <"Your message dated Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:54:12 -0500 (EST)" <980319.145908.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that >upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably >because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital >(strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable >them to successfully complete grad school, something that many >lower-class students are lacking. > >Sincerely, > >Alex Arifianto > Ugh! money, yes... but strong work ethic? You actually believe it's rooted in the upper-middle class?!!? If I had to venture which "class" had the stronger work ethic, I'd definately side with the "working class"... this sounds too much like the culture of poverty theories which I/we work so hard to disabuse our students of. andrea ferris brown university From jvnix@dixie-net.com Fri Mar 20 00:15:18 1998 Received: from Dixie.dixie-net.com (dixie.dixie-net.com [209.136.164.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA12625 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:15:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from dixie-net.com (p014.dixie-oxford.dixie-net.com [209.136.165.17]) by Dixie.dixie-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24221 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 01:15:14 -0600 Message-ID: <35121711.8ECCF3D3@dixie-net.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 01:13:21 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work References: <01IUUTHNI7JCAIBZ8K@Acad.Ripon.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU wrote: > > Dear Mr Davidson, > > I'd like to make some comments on your posting. I'm not in graduate > school yet, so I don't know the social class of the typical students > there. I do know from my observation in my college that those who decide > to pursue advance degrees in grad school tend to come from uper-middle > class background. Now I wonder how come that might be true? Did you miss the sport-hero discussion we had a while back? Of course money breeds success (i.e, more opportunities) , now granted what one does with the chance one is given, is up to the individual, but of course these opportunities will be more prevalent in higher SES groups. > I also noticed that students from lower-class > background in my college tend to have problems in their college career, > more likely to drop out, Will you share your data? I have no concrete data, but I am not making such a sweeping statement either. I would tend to say this happens to have a bit to do with the fact that most mid to lower SES groups' students are also working their way through school. They could find a job that pays more than their degree would offer and just junk the degree altogether, or they might just not be able to afford it. > and less likely to pursue graduate work right I think this could be to get a job and pay back the first 25K or so borrowed before adding to the total. > away (reasons: burnt out, don't have money, etc.). > > Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that > upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably > because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital This is a load of crap. you should not make statements like this and expect to be taken seriously. Again, I have no data to back up my assertion but I can spew a load of crap with the best of them. My observations have shown just the opposite. The kids with the resources use the heck out of them. I have a friend (upper-mid to lower-upper middle class family) who boasts that his degree proved money may buy anything. He claims to have spent 250K on a BA in Business. Graduated with a 2.21 gpa. Attempted to go to law school, only got a point above the minimun on the LSAT. Then asked me to attend a Logic class for him so he could pass it ( I declined btw.) I also DO have data that I recorded during a three year period regarding drug use. Inherently more prevalent in higher classes of students, especially "designer drugs" (e.g., cocaine, eXtacy, acid.) Comparatively, beer and marijuana were more prevalent in 'working class' students. Where is work ethic in either group? There was a sense of urgency in students from a 'blue collar' background, the need to do well and escape their past so to speak. Higher class students were similar to Japanese (that I have met) students in that they were on a 'vacation' until they took jobs already waiting on them. Those jobs were not contingent on grades, though graduation was very important. I agree with the support from parents being more prevalent in higher classes, since most students I interviewed were from broken homes when they were also from lower classes. I should note, most of the students from lower classes were commuters, and from surrounding rural areas, some already had families of their own before even starting to school. The students I spoke with from upper classes were usually members of greek organizations, and drove fairly nice automobiles to boot. > (strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable > them to successfully complete grad school, something that many > lower-class students are lacking. data please... > > Sincerely, > > Alex Arifianto > > Alexander R. Arifianto, Ripon College (class of 1999) > 600 Campus Drive, Unit # 21, Ripon, WI 54971, USA > Phone: 1-920-745-7617 > E-mail: arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu > GO RED HAWKS!! > SOCIOLOGY AND ECON RULE!! -- JV Nix | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm BlackMage Dragon | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix -==(UDIC)==- | ---FOSTI--- ------------------------------- Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------------------------------------------------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------------------------------------------------------- From tr@tryoung.com Fri Mar 20 07:34:43 1998 Received: from ntserver3.sensible-net.com (ntserver3.sensible-net.com [208.18.224.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA22076; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:34:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.38]) by ntserver3.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA285; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:38:07 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19980320093130.3c1fff2c@sensible-net.com> X-Sender: tr@sensible-net.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ahs-talk@ncsu.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Announcements: FROM THE LEFT Cc: psn-special@csf.colorado.edu, SOCIAL-CLASS@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, teach@csf.Colorado.EDU, socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:38:07 -0500 Annoucements: FROM THE LEFT a Service of the Red Feather Institute TR Young, Senior Editor, FTL ********** CONFERENCES OF NOTE: TODAY! TODAY! TODAY!!! 1998 Socialist Scholars Conference "A World to Win: From the 'Manifesto' to New Organizing for Socialist Change" March 20 to 22, 1998 Borough of Manhattan Community College 199 Chambers Street, NYC Participants include: Michael Moore, Katha Pollit, Stephen Jay Gould, Frances Fox Piven, Manning Marable, Ellen Willis, Reverend Al Sharpton, Samir Amin, Doug Henwood, Stanley Aronowitz, Ellen Meiksins Wood, David Abdulah, Leith Mullings, Harry Magdoff, Daniel Singer, Paul Sweezy, Sal Albanese, Elaine Bernard, Aijaz Ahmad, Paco Ignacio Taibo II, Bill Fletcher, David Harvey, Jakob Moneta, John Bellamy Foster, Bogdan Denitch, Tom Frank, Kim Moody, Angela Ards, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, Hector Figueroa, Edward Herman and dozens more... 10TH CONFERENCE of North American and Cuban Philosophers and Social Scientists meeting in Havana, June 12-26. Contact: Cliff DuRand: cdurand@jewel.morgan.edu NORTH CENTRAL SOCIOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION; April 16-19 in Cleveland. Several Sessions of interest to progressives: Regulating the Poor. Mary Joyce Green, Organizer Native Nations and American Indians, James Fenelon, Organizer Third World Issues, Jieli Li, Organizer Race, Class and Gender, Rodney Coates, Organizer White Supremacy, Art Jipson, Organizer Professional Class Passivity, Bill Flint, Organizer Sociology of White Supremacy, Paul J. Becker, Organizer Environmental Justice, Harry Potter, Organizer Multicultural and Feminist Approaches to Teaching, Susan Alexander, Organizer Political Economy and Social Change in South Asia Senarath Abeyratne, Organizer Globalizing the Service State, Albert Cousins, Organizer ...and many more. CALL FOR PAPERS CURRENT PERSPECTIVES IN SOCIAL THEORY invites submissions for the 1999 volume. DEADLINE IS 1 April, 1998. contact: Chris Podeschi at: cpodesc@unlgrad1.unl.edu ***REVIEW OF RADICAL POLITICAL ECONOMICS, V. 29, No.4: The Future of Capitalism Articles by Judith Biewener Fred Moselely Fikret Ceyhun Seongjin Jeong and John Bellamy Foster Email: jai@cix.co.uk POLITICAL POWER AND SOCIAL THEORY Contact Diane Davis:ppst@newschool.edu CONTEMPORARY JUSTICE REVIEW: A new Journal. invites submissions on 'Co-alition Building/ Radical Alliances. Contact: Jill Bystydzienski or Steven Schacht. Jill: BYSTYDJ@franklincoll.edu Steven at: SPSCHACHT@aol.com PEACE REVIEW: Contact: Robert Elias: eliansr@usfca.edu The Red Feather Journal of POSTMODERN CRIMINOLOGY invites papers. Contact Bruce Arrrigo Dragan Milovanovic or Stuart Henry Contact TR Young if you would like to edit a Special Issue. ***Call for Editors**** The Red Feather Journal of Graduate Sociology invites grad students everywhere to edit a Regular or Special Issue of this new Journal for and by Grad Students in Sociology. Special National/Regional Issues are possible as well if three or more grad students want to co-edit them. Contact TRYoung at tr@tryoung.com The Red Feather Journal of UnderGrad Sociology invites sociologists whose speciality is teaching to edit/co-edit Regular, Special or University Issues of this Journal dedicated to and only to promoting excellence in undergraduate sociology ***SSSP MEETINGS in San Francisco: Several Sessions are of considerable interest to Progressive Scholars: Judith Lorber and Myra Marx on 'Global Feminisms' Art Shostak on 'The Future of the Labor Movement' Doris Wilkenson on 'The Unfinished Agenda of the Civil Rights Movement And don't forget, SSSP offers Minority Scholarships ***CONNECTIONS: Small Press Publications has issued an International Catalog of The Wide Left. For a copy, contact: anti@compulink.gr.link Chas A Ostenle, Research Scholar The Red Feather Institute Chas.A.Ostenle@tryoung.com From tombrown@jhu.edu Fri Mar 20 08:09:53 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA23562 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:09:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IUVW47J2DMB4SZO8@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:07:38 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA10577 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:09:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:09:26 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803201509.KAA10577@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >>Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that >>upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably >>because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital >>(strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable >>them to successfully complete grad school, something that many >>lower-class students are lacking. > >Ugh! money, yes... but strong work ethic? You actually believe it's rooted >in the upper-middle class?!!? If I had to venture which "class" had the >stronger work ethic, I'd definately side with the "working class"... this >sounds too much like the culture of poverty theories which I/we work so >hard to disabuse our students of. Alex's argument seems to me to deserve more serious consideration, and instead he's taking hits on one small element pulled out of context rather than on what he actually said. His argument is that lower class students lack economic and cultural capital relative to upper and middle class students. Is there really anything we can take exception to here? His reference to "work ethics" is really too vague to take exception to, until we know what he means by it. My experience in teaching at an elite private university, and also at a third-rate public university, is that there *is* a difference in the work habits of students by class. I would offer several explanations for this. First, Alex's cultural capital hyposthesis is right on the money. Bright, motivated kids from poor neighborhoods have managed to cruise through high school, getting high grades without doing too much work simply because there was no real competition for those grades. When they get to college, they often have no clue about the amount of organization and effort it takes to succeed in college. Even worse, they are often behind the kids from middle-class schools in basic skills. The lower-class kids need to work even *harder* just to catch up. They are often at a real disadvantage. Second, they are more likely to have to work to put themselves through school, which has to distract from the amount of energy they can give to schoolwork. Third, if their parents or siblings didn't go to college, then these students have no real support at home. Their family may support the idea of college in general, but have no clue as to the amount and kinds of commitment that a higher education requires. It's not that they don't want to give support--they simply don't know what kind of support is needed, or how to mobilize it. Fourth, there *is* a culture in many poor neighborhoods that disparages educational attainment. The "culture of poverty" hypothesis is not some right wing fantasy--nearly all of our best poverty researchers from all political stripes refer to elements of cultural capital that are counterproductive for educational attainment. If you are disabusing your students of considering these effects, then you are presenting a distorted picture of poverty in the US. From tombrown@jhu.edu Fri Mar 20 08:15:23 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA23929 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:15:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IUVWB6A1RUB4SZO9@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:13:17 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id KAA14330 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:15:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:15:02 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: theory and class To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803201515.KAA14330@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Sharon's comment about working and middle classes is reasonable for Gilman's time. Class lines were more clearly defined back then. As for the explication of class in most intro books--yes, it's terrible. Many sociologists have a weak understanding of class, and often confuse income or SES with class. Weber described three dimensions of stratification: economic, status, and power. His conceptualizations are very weak, even tautological. For a strong conceptualization of economic class, most people begin with Marx, although contemporary writers see the need to create a more highly differentiated typology than Marx's. For a strong conceptualization of power classes, the best place to begin is with Dahrendorf, who looked at authority relations in the workplace--who gives orders to whom. For a conceptualization of class as status, look at Treiman's work on occupational prestige. Or, you can just begin with Blau/Duncan's approach to status attainment, which incorporates income, education, and prestige. I think that a complete analysis of social stratification needs to consider all three of Weber's dimensions. They do overlap quite a bit. SES is the most powerful predictor, probably because it's continuous and easy to measure. But all three of the dimensions have effects independent of one another on many outcomes of interest. At the very least, you need to rationalize *not* using any of them when you invoke the concept of class, or people will wonder what you really mean by class. From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Fri Mar 20 11:36:02 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA00789 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:35:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id NAA29128; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:35:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:35:48 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: theory and class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII List, On the matter of Weber. I have problems with the many attempts to integrate Weber into class structural (and dialectical) analysis. For example I disagree with EO Wright's effective conflation of Weberian and Marxian class models. I agree with the person who posted today on the logical problems in Weber's stratification model. I would add to that critique that Weber's concept of class relies too much on subjectivity and class identity being constituted by market (exchange) relations. The Marxian model acknowledges these matters, but goes deeper to productions relations and determines class location by shared relation to the means of production and labor process. This opens the model up to structural analysis. I have more I might say on this, particularly the theoretical viability of Weberian class analysis, but I am off to solve nightmarish hard drive problems. I am new to the list, so if theoretical discussion is out of bounds I must be told. Feeling my way about as it is right now. Thanks. Andy From ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Fri Mar 20 13:52:08 1998 Received: from ATHENA.RIPON.EDU (acad.ripon.edu [143.109.2.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA05604 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:52:04 -0700 (MST) From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Received: from Acad.Ripon.EDU by Acad.Ripon.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #24275) id <01IUW3WPIFM8AIC3NS@Acad.Ripon.EDU> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:55:09 CST Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:20:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Respond to Posting To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01IUW65OFDFSAIC3NS@Acad.Ripon.EDU> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII SOCGRAD LIST Members: I have read some of your responses and I take your criticisms with a grain of salt. I want to clarify some points that I said yesterday. First, I want to point out that I'm not yet in grad school, so I have no first hand knowledge of what the social class background students there are coming from exactly.If there are many lower-middle class students going to grad school, that's GREAT! I think all people should have the chance of pursuing the highest education that they want to achieve, regardless if their social-class, race, gender, religion, and sexual orientation. I'm not an elitist. As a minority student, I understand the difficulties of "fitting in" and be accepted by the (class and race) majority in the college community. Second, I'm not a fan of culture of poverty hypothesis. However, I do see a disturbing trend in my college that many of the people that I know in Ripon that came from lower-class background have more difficulty to adapt to the curicullum and the academic rigor of college education (e.g., have more pessimistic outlook on their classes or even their lives, failed to complete assignment on time, failed to show up in class).I'm not saying that ALL lower-class people are like that. As a matter of fact, I could point out both to lower-class students who work hard in their studies and to upper-class students that also have problems in college here in my college. I do see from my observation that many lower-class student are more likely to have the attitudes above, in my view because they do not have equal access to resources (money,education, and role models) that students from upper-class background take for granted. This is really a VERY disturbing trend for me. In my view, this problem can only be solved by giving lower-class students the same access that the upper-class students have (financial, education and training, and good role models), something that the upper-class elites would certainly unwilling to give without a struggle. Finally, I wish we live in a perfect utoian world where equality in all aspects of life prevails. Unfortunately, we do not live in such world. The fact that social class determines one's life chances is a troubling and unacceptable reality.However, that's how the world is right now. We can always try to make it better (and we should), but I'm afraid this phenomena will continue until we cease to exist from this world (or when the REAL Marxist revolution happens, whichever comes first). That's all my gripes for now. --Alex Alexander R. Arifianto, Ripon College (class of 1999) 600 Campus Drive, Unit # 21, Ripon, WI 54971, USA Phone: 1-920-745-7617 E-mail: arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu GO RED HAWKS!! SOCIOLOGY AND ECON RULE!! From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Sat Mar 21 02:04:47 1998 Received: from scf-fs.usc.edu (scf-fs.usc.edu [128.125.253.183]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id CAA00645 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 02:04:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from hal (ciscoserv-230-020.usc.edu [128.125.230.20]) by scf-fs.usc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/usc) with ESMTP id BAA26792 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 01:04:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803210904.BAA26792@scf-fs.usc.edu> From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: theory? Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:17:03 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, I don't know if Gilman is a social theorist or a sociological theorist. She is required reading here in the grad classical theory course (and you can tell your Prof that if it helps). I think she's as intersting as anyone to read. Though as you note she was pretty weak on the class analysis. I think I remember that she was friends or lovers with Spencer, the darling/apologists of the capitalist class. Odd contridictions we sometimes have--she was way ahead of her times, he was way behind. Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: Sharon Snow > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: theory? > Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 12:48 PM > > Don - my thesis is on Charlotte Perkins Gilman. For those of you who > don't know of her (policing boundaries?), she was a sociologist and > feminist who wrote seven books and many articles of social theory. Her > most well known work is _Women and Economics_. She was basically a > Marxist and saw the economic inequality between women and men as the > most pressing problem facing society. She thought it lead to problems > in the family as well as depriving society of the contributions of half > of the population. Many of her ideas and "solutions" have come to pass, > women working, take-out meals, professional child care, professional > house cleaners who did not reside in the household. One of the > weaknesses of her theory is that she basically wrote and theorized about > middle-class women's lives and failed to take into account the > actualities of working class families. > > For the most part she (like Jane Addams, Harriett Martineau, and other > women) has been forgotten by sociology. Gilman is primarily claimed by > literature for her poetry and fiction and by women's studies for her > feminist writings. > > Your point about policing the boundaries is well taken and that > certainly has been done to women sociologist as well as other > marginalized groups. When I get a clarification from my professor I'll > pass it along to the group. > > Sharon From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Sat Mar 21 02:04:49 1998 Received: from scf-fs.usc.edu (scf-fs.usc.edu [128.125.253.183]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id CAA00653 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 02:04:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from hal (ciscoserv-230-020.usc.edu [128.125.230.20]) by scf-fs.usc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/usc) with ESMTP id BAA26802 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 01:04:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803210904.BAA26802@scf-fs.usc.edu> From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: Advices on Finding The Right Grad School Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:40:29 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, there's not a lot of work being done in Nixon Studies or Elvis Studies but then they may not be hiring in those areas either. You can combine them into "We're Dead studies" and make quite an impression. On a slightly more serious note there is a lot going on here with immigration. This place has been doing demography for years though its moving towards immigration. Several faculty and grad students are in that area. Political Economy is weak in the department but there are several other places to pick up (and interdisciplinary work is encouraged). Being situated in the West Coast Ellis island is not all bad. There is plenty to research here as everybody came here from somewhere else. Send for a brochure at the address below or call 213-740-8851 if you want. ps. Don't take the GRE without at least being familiar with the format and doing a little practicing. The ASA Guide To Grad Schools has an index that is a little helpful to find schools in certain areas. If you're serious start reading in journals and notice who you find interesting then write them an (excellent) letter and tell them of your interest and ask if their University would be a good place for you. a good question that shows you actually are familiar with their work can't hurt. Just be sure you are. Good luck, Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Advices on Finding The Right Grad School > Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 11:28 AM > > Members of PSN and SOCGRAD list: > > My name is Alex Arifianto and I am a junior sociology major from ripon > College. Currently, I am seriously considering to obtain a Ph.D in > Sociology, but often I'm confused on what kind of programs should I > apply to in order to meet my interest. I hope some of you can provide my > some suggestions/advices on this. > > My field of interests right now is Sociology of Immigration, Political > Sociology, Economic Sociology, and Sociology of Globalization / World > Systems. I have taken courses in research methods and I am currently > writing my senior thesis on Ripon College student's attitudes toward > immigration (I have posted a question about this before). I am planning > to study off-campus in Washington,DC next fall, as part of Washington > Semester Program. There, i plan to take a graduate course in Social > Policy Analysis.I'm taking my GRE on April 4th of this year. > > I want your suggestions on the following: > > 1) Sociology graduate programs in the U.S. that are famous from doing > research parrallel to my interest areas above.Plus famous faculty > members specializing in my fields that you think I should have contact > with. > > 2) Emerging areas in sociology where you think there's a shortage of > sociologists doing research on them right now. Since I am interested in > globalization and Sociology of Asian nations, please let me know whether > there are shortages in these two areas right now (a shortage would be > beneficial for me, for it would be easier for me to get a job in these > areas). > > 3) Any other ideas/suggestions that might be useful in my graduate school > planning. > > Thank you for your assistance. I will certainly appreciate it. > > Sincerely, > > Alex Arifianto > > > Alexander R. Arifianto, Ripon College (class of 1999) > 600 Campus Drive, Unit # 21, Ripon, WI 54971, USA > Phone: 1-920-745-7617 > E-mail: arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu > GO RED HAWKS!! > SOCIOLOGY AND ECON RULE!! > From BLawre1895@aol.com Sat Mar 21 05:25:51 1998 Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA03683 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:25:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from BLawre1895@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GQPDa20453 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:25:42 -0500 (EST) From: BLawre1895 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:25:42 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: theory? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What is the difference between social theory and sociological theory? I did not know there was a differencce. Sharon From BLawre1895@aol.com Sat Mar 21 05:37:33 1998 Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA04344 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:37:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from BLawre1895@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GNYUa28270 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:37:18 -0500 (EST) From: BLawre1895 Message-ID: <51e18305.3513b480@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:37:18 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re:Feminist Theory Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a marginal sociological theory today. I personally think women's perspectives are just as important as men's perspective. Then I tried to imagined how theory, sociology and society would be if feminist theories were to dominate sociology. Thus, the question is as follows: If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might the consequences be for theory, for sociology and society? Sharon From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 21 08:18:36 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA08675 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:18:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id KAA20814; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:18:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:18:33 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <51e18305.3513b480@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sharon, Feminist theory is marginal for the same reasons and on the same grounds that feminist theory exists as social critique: the patriarchy. Socialist and critical race theory are marginal for similar reasons. Feminist theory can only become mainstream in sociology when the actual basis for its suppression - maleness - is overthrown, and in my view this must come in tandem with the overthrow of capital and whiteness. Unfortunately, the struggle is presently retrograde. Andy On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, BLawre1895 wrote: > I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a > marginal sociological theory today. I personally think women's perspectives > are just as important as men's perspective. Then I tried to imagined how > theory, sociology and society would be if feminist theories were to dominate > sociology. Thus, the question is as follows: > > If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might the consequences be > for theory, for sociology and society? > > > Sharon > > > From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 21 08:29:16 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA09379 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:29:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id KAA21939; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:29:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:29:13 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: theory? In-Reply-To: <199803210904.BAA26792@scf-fs.usc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Don Naylor wrote: > I think I remember that she was friends or lovers with Spencer, > the darling/apologists of the capitalist class. Odd contridictions we > sometimes have--she was way ahead of her times, he was way behind. Considering the right turn in global politics and the re-emergence of social Darwinism, Spencer can be considered to be way ahead of his time. Depends on your standpoint. On Gilman, I assign my intro students the short "The Yellow Wallpaper," and then have them read Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English's "The Sexual Politics of Sickness." It opens their eyes. I think on this whole matter that the distinction this professor is trying to draw is between sociological theory, which s/he regards as scientific, on the one hand, and social theory, which on the other hand s/he regards as social "critique." I have encountered sociological theoreticians/ methodologists who hold that critical social theory, i.e., feminism, socialism, etc., is not science at all but critique. This is a reactionary standpoint because it seeks to keep only those standpoints that favor structures of domination - and the false ideology of neutrality that masks those dominative forms - defined as science. The work of those who seek science for liberation are defined by hegemonic forces as "non-science" or even "anti-science." Andy From mherman@U.Arizona.EDU Sat Mar 21 11:28:54 1998 Received: from aruba.u.arizona.edu (aruba.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.30]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA14798 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:28:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (mherman@localhost) by aruba.u.arizona.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA67378 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:28:52 -0700 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:28:51 -0700 (MST) From: Max A Herman To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: choosing a grad school/social class Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Alex- Thanks for posting the message on my ASR piece with Al Bergesen. I hope you found the response somewhat useful. As for grad school, I know of a few schools that are particularly strong in the study of immigration, political economy, and world systems. Most of them are on the West coast. Perhaps the best is University of California-Irvine. You might want to talk to or e-mail Hector Delgado, a former U of Arizona professor who has done work on organizing undocumented workers and is now at Irvine. He has written an excellant book on this topic. I think his e-mail is Delgado@UCI.edu. Don't forget the University of Arizona, which has several people who do economic sociology. My advisor, Al Bergesen is one of the founding fathers of world systems theory. Also Kathleen Schwartman doeswork on race, political economy, South Africa and Latin America. Her e-mail is kcs@U.Arizona.edu. Call Bonnie Thompson at (520) 621-3531 or e-mail her at thomsob@U.Arizona.edu for a graduate program brochure and application. As for the dialogue on social class and grad school, I agree that it is difficult for students of lower middle class and lower class backgrounds to persist in graduate students, if only for financial reasons. Motivational factors come into play as well but from my experience lower middle class students tend to persist despite large financial obstacles, perhaps because they believe (perhaps falsely) that a PhD is the ticket to upward social mobility. So rarely do I see students of working class background in grad school that I can not make and accurate assessment. The few that I have seen have had a higher incidence of dropping out, but this is also perhaps an interaction of race and class, and the lack of support for minority students in some grad programs. Some of those working class students who have left the program have met with great success in the business world, so maybe it's them that have had the last laugh. Academia is certainly not the road to riches, so if you do decide to go to grad school, do it because you love the work not the potential promise of money and status. Good luck with your decision. -Max Herman From BLawre1895@aol.com Sat Mar 21 13:03:37 1998 Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA20270 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:03:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from BLawre1895@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id CLVRa10831; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:02:36 -0500 (EST) From: BLawre1895 Message-ID: <30e0bb29.35141cde@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:02:36 EST To: neese@nevada.edu (Denise M Dalaimo) Cc: Socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Feminist Theory Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for taking the time to answer my question about Feminist theory. I know there are some who believe Feminist theory is essentally a White, Middle Class or Upper Class social movement. I do not understand what you mean by hegemonic feminism. I personally do not see feminist theory as being just for White, Middle Class or Upper Class women. I still would like to know your opinion on my question: If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might be the consequences for theory, sociology and society. I think more consideration would be given to women's perspective, and more serious considerations would be given to theories of gender differences, theories of gender inequality and theories gender oppression. In addition, I believe sociology would be a science of liberation by legitimating females. Liberal sociologists would advocate and implement reform and radical sociologists would call for the restructuring of society, pointing to societal evils and encouraging mass participation to bring about major changes in society. Socialist feminist analysis would include theories of oppression eg. capitalist patriarchy and domination of the mutilfaceted system of oppression based on class, age, ethnicity, sexual preference. The dominance of feminist theory would result in social change which would include, but limited to females gaining more control economically, politically and personally. Sharon From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 21 13:53:19 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA22657 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:53:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id PAA00089; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:53:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:53:16 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <30e0bb29.35141cde@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sharon, I think there is a hegemonic ideology called "feminism" that is predominantly white and middle class, namely, "liberal feminism." Liberal feminism is a near status quo position that seeks to elevate women to an equal position of men in their ability to exploit labor power, public resources, ecosystems, etc.. Put another way, the need to have gender proportionality in wealth and power in a patriarchal system is the motive. The outcome is, for example, rich white women exploiting the labor power of poor minority women (and any number of other similar contradictions). Liberal feminism is in a relative position of power precisely because it does not challenge the material basis of the patriarchy. And liberal feminism, like liberalism generally, is moving towards the neo- conservative line of rationality, as liberal reformers who have gotten into bed with ruling elites seek to retain their privilege in the dramatic New Right shift. This goes for leaders of the civil rights movement generally. (And it is not as if the tactic of liberal reform has ever been the ultimate means for achieving freedom.) The feminism that we see in the corporate media has been reduced to partisan politics and rhetorical exercises in gotcha. It all gets pretty sickening after a while. Is this feminism? I don't know. But I do know it's not my kind of feminism. So if the question is whether a genuine liberatory feminism can ever be hegemonic, the answer is: No, not in the present context. And feminists cannot win the battle to make it so alone, just as those struggling against white supremacy and for the environment and so on cannot win without binding up their struggles together in a people' movement. But people who believe in the right of all women to be free can struggle and fight, and we should do this. All of us should be down in the basement sawing away with little files weaking the structure, at the same time we are out stomping our feets in the streets to bring the walls down. Andy From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Sat Mar 21 14:59:46 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.49.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA23952 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:59:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08904 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:58:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:58:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199803212158.QAA08904@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re:Feminist Theory Socgrad, I guess I am prepared for the hate letters that will be forth-coming, but here is my thoughts on the feminist theory question. Sharon wrote: >I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a >marginal sociological theory today. I would disagree with this premise, feminist theory is highly influencial in sociology. Catherine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, and a wide range of "Marxist- Feminists" are required reading in my theory courses, and - from what other people have told me - it is a required part of many courses of sociology. >I personally think women's perspectives are just as important as men's >perspective. The fundamental problem here lies in the belief that there is a "perspective" that everyone should follow depending on weather they are male or female. It is very convienent to say that all sociology is "patriarchy" and that feminism is the required antidote to this ideology. I think that idea is misguided. There are so many cleavages in sociology and there is such a victim-hood mentality in society itself that it becomes increasingly difficult to find things that unite us rather than separate us. >Then I tried to imagined how theory, sociology and society would be if >feminist theories were to dominate sociology. Thus, the question is as >follows: If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might the >consequences be for theory, for sociology and society? Lets explore some feminist theories: Andrea Dworkin famously remarked that sex (penetration) violated women and that it is a fundamental act of agression. She came to the conclusion that all sex is "rape" and that all men are essentially rapists. So, is this a healthy belief that all society should embrace? All feminist theory reverts to the argument that "patriarchy" is the root of all evil. That men design the structure of society to keep them in the dominate position and that men create the rules. It is a belief that women are essentially powerless to achieve or advance in this "patriarchial" society. Thus, all women are victims of males, and that if a women should happen to achieve anything, she was a "token" used to keep the system running. This kind of argument is cirular - if a women fails to accomplish a goal, she was the victim of "patriarchy" if she succeeds, she was a "token" and also a reminder of the "partiarchy" of society. I am not argueing that there is no sex dicrimination in society, there is, and it is something that we have to deal with. We have made tremendous stides in terms of equality of oppurtunity and equal pay, but most feminist theorist go beyond the concept of "equality". Men are not equal to women, we are "rapists" who deny women their "sexuality". There is also a funny alliance that radical feminists have made with the extreme right wing which concerns the issue of "pornography". Most of the traditional feminists (not counting such people as Nadine Strossen, Wendy McElroy, and Camile Paglia) fight against "pornography" that "objectifies" women. They claim that it leads men to rape and murder women and that it is a violation of all women. The science of the effects of pornography have never proved it causes men to be more agressive or more violent at all (a summary of the research on this point can be found in Nadine Strossen's book "Defending Pornography" - Strossen is the President of the ACLU has been fighting for free speech issues for a long time). These feminists have been joining such people as Jerry Falwell and the Christian Coalition to pass "decency" laws that criminalize pornography. Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin lobbyed to pass a Canadian law with bans the import of all materials deemed "obscene" from entering the country. One of the interesting effects of this law is that it is up to the government to determine what is obscene and Canada has deemed Dworkin's own novels as "pornography" and deemed them unfit for importation. That is what happens when you give the goverment the power to regulate morality. Matt Hoover From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Sat Mar 21 15:26:44 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.5.27]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id PAA27226 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:26:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA03935; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:56:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:56:34 -0500 From: 2688417220#STUDENT#HOOVER MATTHEW SCOTT#19970227 Message-Id: <199803211756.MAA03935@csu-e.csuohio.edu> From umlucas5@cc.UManitoba.CA Sat Mar 21 16:08:16 1998 Received: from electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (electra.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.16.23]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA27896 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:08:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from ibm (annex1-23.cc.umanitoba.ca [130.179.153.39]) by electra.cc.umanitoba.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01730 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:08:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803212308.RAA01730@electra.cc.umanitoba.ca> From: "Tim Lucas" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:00:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-reply-to: <199803212158.QAA08904@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) > Catherine Mackinnon and > Andrea Dworkin lobbyed to pass a Canadian law with bans the import of all > materials deemed "obscene" from entering the country. One of the interesting > effects of this law is that it is up to the government to determine what > is obscene and Canada has deemed Dworkin's own novels as "pornography" and > deemed them unfit for importation. That is what happens when you give the > goverment the power to regulate morality. > For anyone interested in this Canadian case of obscenity legislation, check out: "Undressing the Canadian State: The Politics of Pornography from Hicklin to Butler" by Kirsten K. Johnson "LEAF and Pornography: Litigating on Equality and Sexual Representations" by Karen Busby in the Canadian Journal of Law and Society Vol.9#1 Spring1994 The latter work deals particularly with some issues surrounding how the obscenity legislation upheld by the Supreme Court has been utilized in an unfair manner against gay/lesbian sexual representation. It also suggests that it may not be the legislation itself that is entirely problematic, but the confused application and interpretation of the Court's relatively unique/new 'harms-based' approach to pornography. Also, it seems to me that it will increasingly not be the government deciding what is obscene, but judges and the court system (although I suppose some would regard those as arms of the government?). Finally, I don't know anything about Dworkin's books being deemed pornographic...but they're available in my university's library... Cheers, Tim Lucas ___________ Department of Sociology University of Manitoba Winnipeg, Canada From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 21 19:38:18 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA01393 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:38:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id VAA06970; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:38:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:38:14 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <199803212158.QAA08904@csu-e.csuohio.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Matt, "Victimhood" - This is a chapter in the *How to Be a White Male Handbook*, isn't it? First subsection "How to Handle those Whiney Liberal Feminazi Bitches," I think. Matt, the only manufactured victimhood on college campuses is the white male victimology crap being spun on the glossy pages of right wing corporate funded college journals. Your argument is exemplary of the sort of irrational ideological inversions that have been deliberately and carefully designed by corporate think tanks and used to beat the left challenge back down. They are lies. Camille Paglia a "feminist"? This was the woman who offered to make dinner for Rush Limbaugh's mentor Roger Ailes. She promised she would treat him like a man. I guess she wouldn't be standing with the "radical" feminists you noted. (Did you praise her for this?) Where did you get the idea that there is no common ground between marginalized groups and those who stand with them? Your post tonight makes quite clear the common ground we stand on. Andy From davidredmon@hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 22:58:06 1998 Received: from hotmail.com (f153.hotmail.com [207.82.251.32]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id WAA03562 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:58:04 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 18194 invoked by uid 0); 22 Mar 1998 05:58:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19980322055804.18193.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.165.62.217 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:58:03 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.165.62.217] From: "David Redmon" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: social theory vs. sociological theory: see Seidman Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:58:03 PST Steven Seidman, in 1990, brought this issue to the fore in sociology with his published article, "The end of sociological theory." In this article he argued that much of sociological theory was losing touch with its intellectual importance. In a sense, it has gone astray. Sociological theory is produced and consumed by sociological theorists. His point, I believe, is well taken. What he posits is "social theory as a social narrative with a moral intent." Although he makes no claims that this postmodern turn will liberate society or sociology, it will, however, free us from the illusion of speaking the "truth." In short, social theory is local knowledge(s) closely connected with an attempt to shape political or social outcomes. It has a moral intent. Sociological theory, however, assumes society has one true vocabulary, one true logic that mirrors social reality. It is up to the social scientist to discover or uncover these facts, laws, and logic of society. When doing so, the accumulated knowledge will assist society to go forward with its Enlightenment endeavors, that is, society will progress. There is much, much more to be said on this subject. If you are curious, and would like to know what the difference is, see Differencing Troubles, Contested Knowledge, and The Postmodern Turn, all written or edited by Steven Seidman. David Redmon Texas woman's University Dept. of Sociology >I don't know if the main difference rests in the ability to derive testable >hypotheses or not -- I think the real difference (for those who push the >existence of such a difference) is sociological theory is motivated by the >desire to generate hypotheses and the potential that sociology can discover >truths about the world through such activity -- social theory refers to the >more general effort that folks like Mills and Denzin talk about -- getting >folks to realize that the reason for why their situations are what they are >is structural, and lies in broader social structures. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sharons1@airmail.net Sat Mar 21 23:19:30 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id XAA03890 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:19:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.53.212] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Sun, 22 Mar 98 00:19:21 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3514C221.720F@airmail.net> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:47:46 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: feminist theory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt - I'm wondering where you go to school that you have the idea that feminist theory is not marginalized. Just because you have to read a few works by feminist writers does not mean feminist theory is not marginalized. All you need to do is to attend any sociology conference and look for the panels that contain a feminist perspective - usually they are lumped together so that people who are serious sociologist don't have to hear that stuff - or they are relegated to a "women's caucus". Or pick up a copy of major sociology journals and look for the feminist writing. Or write a feminist article and try to get it published. Andrea Dworkin's name has come up quite a bit and, although she is an important feminist writer, feminist theory is much more dynamic that what you get from reading Dworkin. Because feminist theory constantly questions and challenges (itself as well as the established power structure) it is ever exploding in new directions. If there are people on the list who are interested in reading more current stuff you might try Judith Butler, Monique Wittig, Diana Fuss, Gloria Anzuldua, bell hooks, Biddy Martin, and Barbara Christian. Sharon Snow Texas Woman's University From kcwalker@syr.edu Sun Mar 22 04:30:22 1998 Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id EAA10407 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:30:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from kcwalker (sudial0205-075.syr.edu [128.230.1.75]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA03098 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 06:30:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980322063006.007cd8b0@mailbox.syr.edu> X-Sender: kcwalker@mailbox.syr.edu Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 06:30:06 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: References: <199803212158.QAA08904@csu-e.csuohio.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Camille Paglia a >"feminist"? This was the woman who offered to make dinner for Rush >Limbaugh's mentor Roger Ailes. She promised she would treat him like a >man. I guess she wouldn't be standing with the "radical" feminists you >noted. (Did you praise her for this?) Andy, I don't take issue with much that you said, but I do know plenty of feminists who wouldn't be so quick to monitor the gates of feminism in the way you have--even regarding Paglia (much to my dismay). Funny how we seem to want to get rid of gatekeepers when it comes to social/sociological theory, but feel we need them when it comes to feminism.... From icl1@cornell.edu Sun Mar 22 05:22:43 1998 Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA11497 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 05:22:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from isdn1-9.lightlink.com (isdn1-9.lightlink.com [205.232.34.74]) by cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA03079 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:22:37 -0500 (EST) From: icl1@cornell.edu (Irene C. Limpe) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:22:35 GMT Message-ID: <3514fa21.35551392@router.mail.cornell.edu> References: <30e0bb29.35141cde@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <30e0bb29.35141cde@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by csf.Colorado.EDU id FAA11498 Hi Sharon, >I still would like to know your opinion on my question: > >If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might be the consequences >for theory, sociology and society. Personally, I wouldn't want just one theory dominating sociology. I think social life is too complex to be explained by just one theory so the dominance of one theory, while great for consensus, would seem to limit rather than expand our understanding of the world. As for predictions, what you say may be true and this might bring about radical changes in society, but do we really think sociolgists make much of a difference in the real world? Not to get people depressed but I doubt that the dominance of feminist theory, in one discipline, especially sociology, would make much of a difference to society as a whole. If everything else in society stays the same, what might happen is that sociology might remain or become even more marginalized than it is. Of course, I'm hoping that I'm just being overly negative here and that we sociologists really can make a big difference and bring about dramatic changes in society. After two years of graduate school, my impression is that any changes that sociologists can make will realistically probably be small ones here and there, but nothing really earth shattering that will change the structure of society etc. Of course one could argue that those small things could all add up too -- I hope that's true. I'd really love to hear of some uplifting stories of how sociologists have made a major impact in the world if you know of any. It would be great if there there were a book out there of inspirational and success stories to help us get through grad school. Not exactly related to your question but one professor I know mentioned the trend towards more women entering sociology than men and the possible feminization of sociology as a discipline. He says that the consequence of sociology becoming a female-dominated field may may be that the field as a whole will have less status and that salaries for sociologists may go down -- I guess that sociology will be more marginalized than it is now. It's just an interesting thought I thought I'd bring up. Best, Irene -- Irene C. Limpe Department of Sociology Cornell University From smpitche@mailbox.syr.edu Sun Mar 22 10:05:11 1998 Received: from mailer.syr.edu (mailer.syr.edu [128.230.20.20]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id KAA18780 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:05:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from hydra.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.C4453680@mailer.syr.edu>; 22 Mar 1998 12:05:12 -0500 Received: from localhost (smpitche@localhost) by hydra.syr.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03847 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:05:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hydra.syr.edu: smpitche owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:05:08 -0500 (EST) From: Sarah X-Sender: smpitche@hydra.syr.edu To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: feminist theory In-Reply-To: <3514C221.720F@airmail.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > structure) it is ever exploding in new directions. If there are people > on the list who are interested in reading more current stuff you might > try Judith Butler, Monique Wittig, Diana Fuss, Gloria Anzuldua, bell > hooks, Biddy Martin, and Barbara Christian. > > Sharon Snow > Texas Woman's University > I would also add Dorothy Smith, Patricia Hill-Collins, Trinh Minh-ha and Donna Haraway. oh, i should also add someone that seems to do both social theory (she would say methodology) and sociological theory (she would say method...and i am using seidman's distinctions of these terms here. the article was cited in a previous message); this person is Marjorie DeVault. sarah From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Mar 22 10:36:16 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id KAA19228 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:36:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id MAA06828; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:36:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:36:13 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980322063006.007cd8b0@mailbox.syr.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kelley, Feminism is a broad philosophy, contested, full of contradictions. Anti-racism is similarly diverse and contested. But David Duke cannot claim to be an anti-racist no matter how hard he trys. It is not gate keeping to keep him out. The Monsanto corporation cannot claim to be environmentalist. Noting this is not gate keeping. If anybody, no matter their views, can claim to be a feminist, then feminism doesn't mean anything. Paglia is a reactionary. She stands with those who oppose women's rights. She has condemned the feminist movements. She has endorsed Rush Limbaugh's characterization of feminists as "feminazis." Read John K. Wilson's The Myth of PC for documentation on Paglia's reactionism. Paglia is put on a pedestal by right wingers because they have a great rhetorical weapon in her: a reactionary anti-womanist whose political ideology many liberal feminists are confused over. This is not a matter of gate keeping. It is a matter of being critical of the claims of the right. The right have historically offered their alternatives to voices on the left. Phyllis Schafly stands for "real" women. The Republican's lone black man and handful of women go to the House floor to condemn "welfare queens." Republican's play on the essentialist tendencies among liberal reformers. "How can you say a black man is racist?" They score big time with this tactic. Paglia serves the same purpose and in a much more devious way. She is obscure, and the public's ambiguous perception of her is easily directed to the needs of conservative ideology, which is why she is paraded on right wing talk shows. "How can you say a woman is anti- womanist?" They can make so many tolerance claims about other of her features. To be blunt: she is a good intentions prop. The Paglia weapon is one of the most insidious of the right wing. Andy From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Mar 22 11:17:11 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA21549 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:17:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id NAA10959; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:17:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:17:07 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <3514fa21.35551392@router.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Irene, I would like to clarify your statement about theoretical plurality. A theory is, broadly defined, a systematic explanation for observed facts. I agree that different observed facts may require different theories. I don't think this is what you mean, though. I don't know of any scientific paradigm that rests on a single comprehensive theory. I think you mean that there should not by just one standpoint, or epistemological position. Examples of singular standpoints abound in science. In biology, evolution is the dominant standpoint. There are different evolutionary theories that are derived from this general perspective. In physics there is a definable standpoint with distinctive features. Same thing with geology and other sciences. There is presently a plurality of standpoints in sociology. The discipline has been called "pre-paradigmatic" for this reason. (The closest sociology came to paradigm status - paradigm in the Kuhnian sense here - was with structural functionalism.) I disagree with the argument that we do not desire a unified standpoint. Indeed, I think we require one. I think there are elements in our discipline that imply one, but we must work to clarify these. I don't believe we should just assert hegemony of standpoint. If there is no clear standpoint in sociology, then we should not force one. But if there is one there, or if one can be produced, I see no a priori reason why sociology should not strive to be paradigmatic. We are developing a science here, and science must not be subjected to political requirements for plurality (and pluralism is not desired for political reasons, anyway). Science is the project for adjusting our plural conceptual worlds to a singular, relative and always changing reality. As Gramsci put it: The same ray of light passes through different prisms and yields different refractions of light: in order to have the same refraction, one must make a whole series of adjustments to the individual prisms.... Finding the real identity underneath the apparent differentiation and contradiction and finding the substantial diversity underneath the apparent identity is the most essential quality of the critic of ideas and of the historian of social development. In my view, there is one prism in social theory that has for 150 year consistently generated explanatory systems and this view is historical materialism. This standpoint offers sociology a scientific worldview that does not abandon critical theorizing. It is for right wing political reasons that this standpoint is marginalized: we live in a capitalist society. So rather than political economy drawn from historical materialism, economics departments advance ideology, namely, marginalist and neoclassical economics. Political science departments advance ideology in the form of liberalism, pluralism, uncritical elite theory, etc. But we shouldn't kowtow to the bourgeois logic of the academy anymore than we should accept the false bourgeois ideology of pluralism. That we have different perspectives of the world doesn't change the factual nature of a changing, relative, and singular reality; or the possibility of coming to a singular understanding of that reality (within the problematic of necessary intersubjectivity, of course). This is a false dilemma. I am not trying to start an epistemological debate about the nature of truth - these are so tedious and I suspect will rest on incommensurable grounds. But if it is science that sociology is striving to be (and why shouldn't it), then we should strive to be scientific. One last thing: a shared worldview does not obviate debate. Andy From tombrown@jhu.edu Sun Mar 22 14:00:42 1998 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA27559 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:00:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IUZ0XUIL6QB4T00O@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:58:26 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA23587 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:00:15 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:00:15 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re:Feminist Theory To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803222100.QAA23587@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a >marginal sociological theory today. Feminist theory is too diverse and disarticulated to be an "it". Some feminist theories *have* penetrated the mainstream, particularly in the area of gender research, sociology of the family, and pay equity. Feminist approaches to all of these topics can be found in the top journals. Feminist history is also well-represented in the high profile journals. The feminist theories that are more marginalized tend to be critical, and are disarticulated from empirical research programs. This is one reason why you don't find them in mainstream journals. If you could operationalize these theories in terms of surveys and multiple regression analysis, then you'd have a better shot at publishing in ASR. In other words, much feminist theory is discriminated against on epistemological grounds as much or more than on sexist grounds. From davidson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Sun Mar 22 14:08:32 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA28593 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:08:30 -0700 (MST) From: davidson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Received: from SOCLAB06.SOCI.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 22 Mar 98 16:08:38 EST Message-ID: <35157D89.6886@uconnvm.uconn.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:07:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: [Fwd: NEWS: Institute for the Study of International Migration, Georgetown University (x CISNEWS)] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: Return-Path: Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6637; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:35:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:12:10 -0600 Reply-To: H-NET List on Ethnic History Sender: H-NET List on Ethnic History From: "Josef J. Barton" Subject: NEWS: Institute for the Study of International Migration, Georgetown University (x CISNEWS) To: Multiple recipients of list H-ETHNIC Susan Martin, Andy Schoenholtz, and Lindsay Lowell, formerly senior staff at the Commission on Immigration Reform, have joined the faculty of Georgetown University to establish the Institute for the Study of International Migration. ISIM seeks to expand understanding of migration issues through its research, policy studies, convenings and teaching. The Institute focuses on all aspects of international migration, including the causes of and potential responses to population movements, immigration and refugee law and policy, comparative migration studies, the integration of immigrants into their host societies, and the effects of international migration on social, economic, demographic, foreign policy and national security concerns. ISIM is part of the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service and affiliated with the Law Center. For more information, contact: Institute for the Study of International Migration Georgetown University Box 579400 Washington, DC 20057-9400 (202) 298-0210 (202) 333-4340, fax Martinsf@gunet.georgetown.edu Schoenha@gunet.georgetown.edu Lowellb@gunet.georgetown.edu From tombrown@jhu.edu Sun Mar 22 14:11:34 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA29553 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:11:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IUZ1BFMK6YB4SY8P@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:09:23 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA29437 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:11:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:11:12 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Feminist Theory To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803222111.QAA29437@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I still would like to know your opinion on my question: >If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might be the consequences >for theory, sociology and society. > >I think more consideration would be given to women's perspective, and more >serious considerations would be given to theories of gender differences, >theories of gender inequality and theories gender oppression. Why do you think such work is lacking? It seems to me that there are a number of good scholars working and publishing in these areas. What else do you think needs to be done? >In addition, I believe sociology would be a science of liberation by >legitimating females. Liberal sociologists would advocate and implement >reform and radical sociologists would call for the restructuring of society, >pointing to societal evils and encouraging mass participation to bring about >major changes in society. Socialist feminist analysis would include theories >of oppression eg. capitalist patriarchy and domination of the mutilfaceted >system of oppression based on class, age, ethnicity, sexual preference. The >dominance of feminist theory would result in social change which would >include, but limited to females gaining more control economically, politically >and personally. Sociology is already the most left of all academic disciplines. More than 80% of all sociologists self-identify as "left" or "left-liberal". Women outnumber men in recent cohorts. All of the research and theory streams you call for are already extant and thriving. What leads you to think they are under- emphasized? From tombrown@jhu.edu Sun Mar 22 14:15:37 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA00686 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:15:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IUZ1GWI89GASCJEL@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:13:48 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA01919 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:15:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:15:29 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: theory? To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803222115.QAA01919@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Sharon, I don't know if Gilman is a social theorist or a sociological >theorist. She is required reading here in the grad classical theory course >(and you can tell your Prof that if it helps). I think she's as intersting >as anyone to read. Though as you note she was pretty weak on the class >analysis. Is your professor actually making a case for Gilman as a classical sociological theorist, or is she included to fill a quota? From kcwalker@syr.edu Sun Mar 22 14:52:37 1998 Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA01550 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:52:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from kcwalker (sudial1314-176.syr.edu [128.230.1.176]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26262 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:52:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980322165215.007c8100@mailbox.syr.edu> X-Sender: kcwalker@mailbox.syr.edu Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:52:15 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re:Feminist Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:36 PM 3/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >Kelley, > >Feminism is a broad philosophy, contested, full of contradictions. As is sociology--which is precisely my point. The conversation, thus far (with the exception of Matthew), has suggested that social/sociological theory should be broadly defined *precisely* because proponents of this approach recognize the contested character of the discipline. Laboring under similar impulses, there are people who I otherwise respect and admire who would hesitate to narrow the definition of what consitutes feminist scholarship so as to exclude folks like Paglia and her ilk. (Recall that I don't think feminism should be defined so broadly as to include the likes of Paglia) >Anti-racism is similarly diverse and contested. But David Duke cannot >claim to be an anti-racist no matter how hard he trys. It is not gate >keeping to keep him out. What is it then? What is gatekeeping, on your view. I'm not being confrontational here; I'm simply asking for a definition of terms. >The Monsanto corporation cannot claim to be >environmentalist. Well they *CAN* and they do. I think you mean they *should* not claim to be envrionmentalist, but then one needs to define what an environmentalist is or what an evironmentalist practice is and one needs to be explicit about the normative aspect of one's claims. This is Seidman's point I believe. > Noting this is not gate keeping. If anybody, no matter >their views, can claim to be a feminist, then feminism doesn't mean >anything. Which is precisely my point. To say that anything can be considered social/sociological theory, it seems to me, is to render it meaningless. I don't think Adam Smith, Atistotle, David Hume, or Montesquie are sociological theorists, though certainly they were social theorists and certainly they each, at times, made forays into sociological theory. To say that, however, doesn't make them lesser theorists. I think we can define what counts as social/sociological theory and do so w/o excluding those who've historically been marginalized from the discipline. But, we must be explicit about our normative claims in this regard When Seidman, for example, makes claims about what's gone wrong with sociological theory, he's making a normative argument about what social/sociological theory *ought* to be and therefore he's excluding some types of theorizing. This is gatekeeping and I don't see anything particularly wrong with it, as long as we continue to be vigilant about the sociohistorical context within which we develop such distinctions and recognize that our distinctions are always tentative and must be subject to critical revision. As Sharon noted, this is an *ideal* that feminists have often upheld; however, as many recognize, this isn't an easy task. But that is precisely as it should be. From davidson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Sun Mar 22 15:09:01 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id PAA01974 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:08:59 -0700 (MST) From: davidson@uconnvm.uconn.edu Received: from SOCLAB06.SOCI.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Sun, 22 Mar 98 17:09:08 EST Message-ID: <35158BB7.2E3F@uconnvm.uconn.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:07:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Social Class, Graduate Work, and Feminization of discipline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking as the original person who brought up the issue of social class and graduate work, it is interesting to note that the main discussion on the other list (aera-gsl, the education grad. students list) concerned not just motivation and motivation to finish (in terms of likelihood of people taking out loans, teaching multiple adjunct courses at different places, how debt might be defined differently depending on social class, but it is also dealt with the entire issue of whether working class folks (as well as people of color and women) might be placed at a disadvantage in terms of degree completion and even retention because of certain "taken for granted" notions tied to the fact that the culture of the graduate-degree awarding research university is primarily a white upper-middle male culture, regardless of what the actual demographic percentages might be. As for the feminization of Sociology, one needs to think in terms of what is cause and what is effect. Obviously, anyone who has been in contact with a graduate school in Sociology senses an increasingly female presence, but this might also be because upper-middle class and upper class males, especially if members of certain religious groups have more options available to them (law school, med. school) than their parents or grandparents might have. One must also realize that, if one wants social mobility in a relatively quick way, there are quicker ways of gaining it than graduate work in the social sciences. From davidredmon@hotmail.com Sun Mar 22 15:55:20 1998 Received: from hotmail.com (f76.hotmail.com [207.82.250.182]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id PAA02988 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:55:18 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 650 invoked by uid 0); 22 Mar 1998 22:55:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19980322225517.649.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.165.62.217 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:55:17 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.165.62.217] From: "David Redmon" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:55:17 PST Andy wrote (with some cut-editing), I don't know of any scientific >paradigm that rests on a single comprehensive theory. I think you mean that there should not by just one standpoint, or epistemological position. There is presently a plurality of standpoints in sociology. The discipline has been called "pre-paradigmatic" for this reason. I disagree with the argument that we do not desire a unified standpoint. Indeed, I think we require one. I think there are elements in our discipline that imply one, but we must work to clarify these. I don't believe we should just assert hegemony of standpoint. If there is no clear standpoint in sociology, then we should not force one. But if there is one there, or if one can be produced, I see no a priori reason why sociology should not strive to be paradigmatic. We are developing a science here, and science must not be subjected to political requirements for plurality (and pluralism is not desired for political reasons, anyway). Science is the project for adjusting our plural conceptual worlds to a singular, relative and always changing reality. In my view, there is one prism in social theory that has for 150 year >consistently generated explanatory systems and this view is historical materialism. This standpoint offers sociology a scientific worldview that does not abandon critical theorizing. We shouldn't kowtow to the bourgeois logic of the academy anymore than we >should accept the false bourgeois ideology of pluralism. >That we have different perspectives of the world doesn't change the >factual nature of a changing, relative, and singular reality; What do you mean by the last sentence? or the >possibility of coming to a singular understanding of that reality (within the problematic of necessary intersubjectivity, of course). This is a false dilemma. But if it is science that sociology is striving to be (and why shouldn't it), then we should strive to be scientific. >Andy In response: I would like to add a comment to the historical material position. The historical materialist position analyzes the ways in which the political/economic economy (ie., those who own the media, schools, churches, etc.) have the ability to shape human consciousness. In turn, human consciousness creates ideas, beliefs, thoughts, norms, etc. Many of these human, cultural constructs are embedded in a specific historical circumstance, and people who share the same or similar "cultural systems" will therefore also share the same or similar ideas, beliefs, thoughts, and norms. The key to understandstanding change and conflict, then, is to understand the social forces that inhibit new ideas to emerge and create progress. The point is to change consciousness by changing one's social position (ie., structural conditions). Thus, it is necessary to change the structural conditions in order to change human consciousness. Here lies the crucial point: Theory is to be the material driving force that changes consciousness, only if the people desire to change their structural conditions. Theory helps people realize their consciousness, but it cannot change their material position. Once the two forces come into contact, liberation is possible. Do we agree so far? I realize this is oversimplified, but here comes my point. Is this really an objective understanding of society? Science purports to be objective. The historical matrialist position, like many others, is steeped with biases, beliefs, and assumptions, many of which cannot be tested "scientifically." This position is one worldview among the many; it attempts to persuade the public; and it legitimizes itself by claiming to be scientific, when, in fact, it's not. I'm not saying that historical materialism doesn't generate an "explanatory system." Indeed, it does produce and provoke stimulating thoughts as an explanatory tool. But the manner in which the theoretical explanation should be evaluated is by its outcomes or consequences, not whether it is "scientifically true," or if it meets "scientific standards." In fact, we could use the historical materialist position to explain the ideas that shaped the social scientists while in the process of developing the theory. Were they not subject to the same social forces? Were they excluded? Were they not historically located in a specific moment in time? Indeed, we are both historical and social beings. In closing, social theory and social scientists who accumulate knowledge should not make the claim that "one truth" exists "out there." Many truths exist, and many maps lead to those truths. It seems we have both an epistemological and a methodological difference. My preference, for now, is to evaluate theories by their social outcomes, utility, and practical significance, esp. their moral outcomes. This preference (ie., a historical phenomenological approach) allows one to contexualize subjective experiences by situating them in their historical setting. This preference helps create social maps for a particular historical period, it assists people in making sense of their lives, and it brings to the fore current public debates within the social sciences, which shifts the social scientist into the position to help shape public, political, and social outcomes. Multidimensional truths require multidimensional tools or approaches (ie., methodological). Would you consider this a unified standpoint that helps to explain plural truths? By the way, does your approach seek to understand or explain or both or something else? Ohhh, also, I realize my position may not be scientific. David Redmon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Mar 22 17:21:42 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA05152 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:21:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id TAA21598; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:21:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:21:38 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980322165215.007c8100@mailbox.syr.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Kelley Crouse wrote: > What is gatekeeping, on your view. I'm not being confrontational here; > I'm simply asking for a definition of terms. I don't see you as being confrontational at all, so don't worry about that. "Gatekeeping" is a person or group of persons who stands at the "gate" letting people and ideas in and out. More specifically, and this is the sense I see it being used in this discussion, it is a term with two elements: (1) suggesting a certain "political correctness," e.g., the Stalinist who refuses to entertain modifications made by Western Marxists; (2) then this person or group of persons excludes various persons from the communist cell because they entertain subversive views. Another example is the academic department with a right wing political hegemony excluding potential subversives from the pool of applicants, e.g., an economics department keeping out Marxists. This is different than pointing out that a right winger cannot be a left winger, or that a polluting chemical manufacturer cannot be environmentalist. A physics department is not gatekeeping when it informs a tele-evangelist seeking a position in their department that he will have to preach somewhere else. Or, more realistically, it is not gatekeeping to inform the residents of a community that creationism cannot be among the alternative theories to be taught in high school biology class, anymore than evolution can be a competing explanation for the intensity of the love of Jesus Christ in Sunday school. If gatekeeping is used in such a comprehensive way, then it becomes a meaningless and useless term. Gatekeeping is a specific form of exclusion, and it should retain its specificity. > >The Monsanto corporation cannot claim to be environmentalist. > > Well they *CAN* and they do. Monsanto may and do claim to be environmentalist. But it doesn't mean they can be environmentalist in the sense I mean by that sentence. In any sense of reality Monsanto cannot claim they are environmentalist - their activities are objectively destructive to ecosystems. People lie, particularly polluting corporations. Sorry for the ambiguity. > I think you mean they *should* not claim to be envrionmentalist I didn't mean this. They should claim whatever they like. But their propaganda must be measured against reality. If fact, it seems only rational that Monsanto should lie about their polluting activities. If they don't then the public may work to restrict Monsanto's business (a big maybe given the current passivity of the masses). And where would Monsanto be then? > Which is precisely my point. To say that anything can be considered > social/sociological theory, it seems to me, is to render it meaningless. I agree. Not everything can be social/sociology theory. Most of what exists in social science as theory is not really theory anyway. It is not systematic and it doesn't explain the facts. Most of what passes for social theory and social science generally is ideology. Rarely do positivist exercises rise to the theoretical level. Most of it is just descriptive accounting. > I don't think Adam Smith, Atistotle, David Hume, or Montesquie are > sociological theorists, though certainly they were social theorists and > certainly they each, at times, made forays into sociological theory. Can you explain this to me? Sociology means "the study of the associate." Smith was more sociological in his work that probably 90% of what passes for contemporary sociology. Sure, his work suffered from ideological constraints, but it was nevertheless sociological. Indeed, from Smith and Hume's work, later sociologists, such as Thomas and Cooley derived the basis of their social theory (though Cooley never cited Smith or Hume, his "looking glass self" is a literal translation of Hume's "theory of sympathy," which became the basis of Smith's *Moral Sentiments of Man*). Your question about what is social theory seems to be a different questions from what are the disciplinary boundaries of sociology, which is what I think you are really discussing. The restriction for scientific and theoretical development should be constrained by deeper ontological and epistemological questions, not by academic turf cutting. Maybe we are just talking past each other here. > I don't see anything particularly wrong with it, as long as we > continue to be vigilant about the sociohistorical context within which > we develop such distinctions and recognize that our distinctions are > always tentative and must be subject to critical revision. I agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments. Whatever you call it, gate keeping or whatever, we cannot avoid normative assertions in judgments about science. And we should always be aware of the social and historical context of knowledge production and always be critical. We should also never loose sight of the materialist basis of science and forget to check the growing autonomy of knowledge systems from the objective reality they seek to approximate. Andy From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Mar 22 17:22:20 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA05160 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:22:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id TAA21654; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:22:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: theory? In-Reply-To: <199803222115.QAA01919@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry to post so much, but this statement by Thomas F Brown disturbed me: > Is your professor actually making a case for Gilman as a classical > sociological theorist, or is she included to fill a quota? Thomas, if you have a problem with Gilman's social theory then why not criticize her on the grounds of her intellectual work? It is frightening to hear somebody using the scholarship of woman who struggled against patriarchal oppression just to take a cheap shot at moderate gender diversity programs. Andy From davidredmon@hotmail.com Sun Mar 22 21:49:34 1998 Received: from hotmail.com (f104.hotmail.com [207.82.250.223]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id VAA14543 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:49:30 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 28988 invoked by uid 0); 23 Mar 1998 04:49:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19980323044929.28987.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 205.165.62.217 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:49:29 PST X-Originating-IP: [205.165.62.217] From: "David Redmon" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:49:29 PST >Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital (strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable them to successfully complete grad school, something that many >lower-class students are lacking. > >Sincerely, > >Alex Arifianto What follows may seem a bit arrogant or self-centered, but here goes! And "yes," I'm making the following claims based on my position in the world. However, I do not make any claims to generalize such assertions. And another thing, this is not a "confession." :) Economic captial, yes, I would agree. I come from a "true" working- class background (the farms, rural area, income, status, class, power, type of beliefs, ideas, attitudes, religion, etc). My class was "pre-packaged" for and "delivered" to me, if you will. On top of that, my mother was 16 when I was born, and had to drop out of school. My father just graduated from high school. Jumping ahead to college, were economics/financial issues a problem? Yes, and they still are. Was language a problem? Yes, and it still is. My family never even knew what a college looked like until my JR year in college (in which my mother showed up for "family day" at college. She felt so uncomfortable around "educated folks" that she left 10 minutes into the program. My heart sunk. My father still doesn't know. He's too intimidated to "see" one). I use a personal story to illustrate one point: I believe Marx was correct when he stated social class/existence determined consciousness. My point: many problems exist for working-class students who desire to pursue a degree in college, and a lot has to do with background variables of class. However, it goes beyond these variables as well, on a deeper level--it goes straight to the heart of phenomenological and existentialist explorations of one's consciousness, on how a member of the working-class experiences college for the first time, and how the family feels. Foreground factors are very influencial, something which many stratification theorists tend to ignore. Many theorists ask "why" as opposed to "how." It may be more beneficial to ask questions such as, "How did you go to college, then what did you do, what came next, how did that impact you, etc..." Although I speak from personal experience, I believe my position is legitimate to some extent. After all, do we know how it feels for a working-class member of society to enter college for the first time with few associations from his or her background? How does one experience this transition? What are the emotional, financial, and familial consequences of attending college? Just one personal example: did my mother's social background (ie., class position) determine and shape her behavior or feelings that particular day (ie., the experience of humiliation, intimidation, and feeling 'less of a person,' whether it was real or not? If men or women define the situation as real, then it is real in its consequences). These are foreground factors/questions that have been ignored by many theorists. Does anyone know where I can read-up on such narrative accounts from working-class students or families? Most of the research has been conducted on the background variables of these students. Why is this so? Just curious in Texas, David ps. Another issue on which I've always wondered: can an argument be made that class position is a minority status when it comes to enrollment in and graduating from college? For example, affirmitive action programs exist based on race/ethnicity. Is it possible to have an affirmitive action program on the basis of one's class? If the stats are correct, people who attend college do predominantly come from middle- and upper-classes. Is this ecomomic/class segregation? Just curious... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pfl661@airmail.net Sun Mar 22 23:18:13 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id XAA16013 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:18:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from phyllis-flott from [207.136.56.106] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Mon, 23 Mar 98 00:18:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3515FD86.4BF3@airmail.net> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:13:26 -0600 From: "Phyllis L. Flott" Reply-To: pfl661@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: theory and class References: <199803201515.KAA14330@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like Dahrendorf's work. In addition to the concepts cited, I hear class used as a synonym for patterns of consumption and ideology. I'm grading papers tonight and thought I would share some info on class that one of my students wrote about. Where do aliens fit in the picture? Aliens as in ET, little green men, the grays, whatever. Are they workers or owners or something else? I vote for Veblen's interpretation--predation versus workmanship. Are the aliens predators or here to share their technology? Any ideas about this one? Thomas F Brown wrote: > > Sharon's comment about working and middle classes is reasonable > for Gilman's time. Class lines were more clearly defined back then. > > As for the explication of class in most intro books--yes, it's terrible. > Many sociologists have a weak understanding of class, and often confuse > income or SES with class. > > Weber described three dimensions of stratification: economic, status, > and power. His conceptualizations are very weak, even tautological. > > For a strong conceptualization of economic class, most people begin > with Marx, although contemporary writers see the need to create a more > highly differentiated typology than Marx's. > > For a strong conceptualization of power classes, the best place to > begin is with Dahrendorf, who looked at authority relations in > the workplace--who gives orders to whom. > > For a conceptualization of class as status, look at Treiman's work > on occupational prestige. Or, you can just begin with Blau/Duncan's > approach to status attainment, which incorporates income, education, > and prestige. > > I think that a complete analysis of social stratification needs to > consider all three of Weber's dimensions. They do overlap quite a bit. > SES is the most powerful predictor, probably because it's continuous > and easy to measure. But all three of the dimensions have effects > independent of one another on many outcomes of interest. > > At the very least, you need to rationalize *not* using any of them > when you invoke the concept of class, or people will wonder what > you really mean by class. From sharons1@airmail.net Mon Mar 23 00:27:35 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id AAA20854 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:27:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.52.231] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Mon, 23 Mar 98 01:27:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <35162399.6DA5@airmail.net> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:55:54 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Feminist Theory References: <199803222100.QAA23587@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas - are you saying that epistemology is not sexist? You might want to read _Feminist Epistemologies_ ed. by Alcott and Potter. The legitimatization of knowledge has belonged (and still does) to white, heterosexual male scholars and researchers. The knowledge that gets legitimatized is positivist, scientific, academic research. That serves to keep out women and men of color. Those who are admitted tend to be people who will only rock the boat a little bit, so the academy can say "look how progressive we are." I think most of us accept the fact that knowledge is multifacted and is gathered from many sources. Patricia Hill Collins wrote beautifully about this in _Black Feminist Thought_. Sharon Snow Texas Woman's University From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Mon Mar 23 01:48:38 1998 Received: from scf-fs.usc.edu (scf-fs.usc.edu [128.125.253.183]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id BAA22088 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:48:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from hal (ciscoserv-229-206.usc.edu [128.125.229.206]) by scf-fs.usc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/usc) with ESMTP id AAA22108 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:48:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803230848.AAA22108@scf-fs.usc.edu> From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: theory? Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:35:27 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas, I don't know why we had Gilman assigned as I never asked. I suspect it was because she fit the time period more than that she was considered on the calibur of the three old dead white guys. I'll ask him if you want. Don Ps. We also read Bolough on Weber and Hartsock on Marx which made for an interesting discussion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: Thomas F Brown > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: theory? > Date: Sunday, March 22, 1998 1:15 PM > > >Sharon, I don't know if Gilman is a social theorist or a sociological > >theorist. She is required reading here in the grad classical theory course > >(and you can tell your Prof that if it helps). I think she's as intersting > >as anyone to read. Though as you note she was pretty weak on the class > >analysis. > > Is your professor actually making a case for Gilman as a classical > sociological theorist, or is she included to fill a quota? > > From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Mon Mar 23 07:34:39 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.49.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA01078 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:34:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA05377 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:34:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:34:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199803231434.JAA05377@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re:Feminist Theory Andy wrote: >Feminist theory is marginal for the same reasons and on the same grounds >that feminist theory exists as social critique: the patriarchy. Socialist >and critical race theory are marginal for similar reasons. Feminist theory >can only become mainstream in sociology when the actual basis for its >suppression - maleness - is overthrown, and in my view this must come in >tandem with the overthrow of capital and whiteness. Unfortunately, the >struggle is presently retrograde. Feminist and socialist theory is not "marginalized" in the discipline, and using the mantra of "patriarchy" to explain away all critiques to feminist theory only reinforces the circular nature of your argument. Please explain to me how you can overthrow "maleness", capitalism, and whiteness? This is the same kind of utopian Marxist dogma that pervades most of the discipline, are we all waiting for the day when we can achieve our "species-being"?. Hoover From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Mon Mar 23 07:34:54 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.49.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA01093 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:34:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA05382 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:34:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:34:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199803231434.JAA05382@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re:Feminist Theory Andy wrote: >Matt, > >"Victimhood" - This is a chapter in the *How to Be a White Male Handbook*, >isn't it? First subsection "How to Handle those Whiney Liberal Feminazi >Bitches," I think. Andy, you are so blinded by this "I'm oppressed" mindset that you cannot see common sense. We do live in a total victimhood society, everyone is in some version a victim of someone else. Criminals are victims of bad childhoods, women are victim of patriachy, and Marxists are victims of oppression. Whenever your belief system is shown to be groundless you revert back to the "ideology" argument. >Camille Paglia a "feminist"? This was the woman who offered to make dinner >for Rush Limbaugh's mentor Roger Ailes. She promised she would treat him >like a man. I guess she wouldn't be standing with the "radical" feminists you >noted. (Did you praise her for this?) >Where did you get the idea that there is no common ground between >marginalized groups and those who stand with them? Your post tonight makes >quite clear the common ground we stand on. Whats wrong with offering to make dinner for someone? How exactly can there be common ground when men are called "rapists"? Hoover From jvnix@dixie-net.com Mon Mar 23 07:52:08 1998 Received: from Dixie.dixie-net.com (dixie.dixie-net.com [209.136.164.2]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA02066 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:52:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from dixie-net.com (p038.dixie-oxford.dixie-net.com [209.136.165.41]) by Dixie.dixie-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09145 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:51:58 -0600 Message-ID: <35167694.72855391@dixie-net.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:49:56 -0600 From: BlackMage Dragon MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Social class and graduate work References: <19980323044929.28987.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Redmon wrote: > > >Thus, although I'm not in grad school yet, I can see some patterns that > upper-class students are more likely to pursue advance studies, probably > because they have both economic capital (money) and cultural capital > (strong work ethics, support from parents or peers) that would enable > them to successfully complete grad school, something that many > >lower-class students are lacking. > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Alex Arifianto > > What follows may seem a bit arrogant or self-centered, but here goes! > And "yes," I'm making the following claims based on my position in the > world. However, I do not make any claims to generalize such assertions. > And another thing, this is not a "confession." :) > > Economic captial, yes, I would agree. I come from a "true" working- > class background (the farms, rural area, income, status, class, power, > type of beliefs, ideas, attitudes, religion, etc). My class was > "pre-packaged" for and "delivered" to me, if you will. On top of that, > my mother was 16 when I was born, and had to drop out of school. My > father just graduated from high school. Jumping ahead to college, were > economics/financial issues a problem? Yes, and they still are. Was > language a problem? Yes, and it still is. My family never even knew what > a college looked like until my JR year in college (in which my mother > showed up for "family day" at college. She felt so uncomfortable around > "educated folks" that she left 10 minutes into the program. My heart > sunk. My father still doesn't know. He's too intimidated to "see" one). > > I use a personal story to illustrate one point: I believe Marx was > correct when he stated social class/existence determined consciousness. > > My point: many problems exist for working-class students who desire to > pursue a degree in college, and a lot has to do with background > variables of class. However, it goes beyond these variables as well, on > a deeper level--it goes straight to the heart of phenomenological and > existentialist explorations of one's consciousness, on how a member of > the working-class experiences college for the first time, and how the > family feels. Foreground factors are very influencial, something which > many stratification theorists tend to ignore. Many theorists ask "why" > as opposed to "how." It may be more beneficial to ask questions such as, > "How did you go to college, then what did you do, what came next, how > did that impact you, etc..." Although I speak from personal experience, > I believe my position is legitimate to some extent. After all, do we > know how it feels for a working-class member of society to enter college > for the first time with few associations from his or her background? How > does one experience this transition? What are the emotional, financial, > and familial consequences of attending college? Just one personal > example: did my mother's social background (ie., class position) > determine and shape her behavior or feelings that particular day (ie., > the experience of humiliation, intimidation, and feeling 'less of a > person,' whether it was real or not? If men or women define the > situation as real, then it is real in its consequences). These are > foreground factors/questions that have been ignored by many theorists. > Does anyone know where I can read-up on such narrative accounts from > working-class students or families? Most of the research has been > conducted on the background variables of these students. Why is this so? > > Just curious in Texas, > David > > ps. Another issue on which I've always wondered: can an argument be made > that class position is a minority status when it comes to enrollment in > and graduating from college? For example, affirmitive action programs > exist based on race/ethnicity. Is it possible to have an affirmitive > action program on the basis of one's class? If the stats are correct, > people who attend college do predominantly come from middle- and > upper-classes. Is this ecomomic/class segregation? Just curious... > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Check out West & Newitz: WHITE TRASH. The thesis is basically setting up class as a minority group. VERY interesting and insightful reading. JMHO -- JV Nix | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/ BlackMage Dragon | http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/Ultima.htm -==(UDIC)==- | ---FOSTI--- If you have time,| http://ww2.dixie-net.com/jvnix/surveyfrm.htm ------------------------------- Know the masculine. Keep to the feminine. Be like a stream in the world. -Tao Te Ching: Lao Tzu -------------------------------------------------------------- d+++ e++ N+ T+ Om- U123!4!5!6!7'8AW!M u++ uC++++ uF uG++++ uLB+ uA++ nC+ nR- nH+ nP nI++ nPT nS nT+++ wM- wC+ wS-- wI++ o---- z+ a35 -------------------------------------------------------------- From svlad@cehs.siu.edu Mon Mar 23 08:52:10 1998 Received: from ntserver.cehs.siu.edu (ntserver.cehs.siu.edu [131.230.182.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA06163 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:52:08 -0700 (MST) Received: by ntserver.cehs.siu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:56:36 -0600 Message-ID: From: Shawn Vlad To: "'socgrad@csf.colorado.edu'" Subject: RE: Feminist Theory Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:56:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I wasn't aware that feminist theory was inherently practiced by only women. I guess I will have to take the F-theory out of my thesis. Dam and I thought that I was doing so well by integrating it in to it. As a "man" who is practicing feminist theory i find your remarks about mens and womens perspectives a bit discomforting. Can only women practice feminist theory? Does the fact that I am a man preclude any knowledge or insights in to a theoritical prespective and knowledge base that I might want to add to. I fear that because feminist theory was founded by women and mostly practiced by women the few men that choose this perspective are being marginilized :0. Inorder for any perspective to dominiate anyfield it must cross the boundries of both class and gender. Feminist theory has the chance to do that i think. If only we would open our arms to all...... then again I could be wrong Shawn Vlad SIU@carbondale, IL > -----Original Message----- > From: BLawre1895 [SMTP:BLawre1895@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 21, 1998 6:37 AM > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re:Feminist Theory > > I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a > marginal sociological theory today. I personally think women's > perspectives > are just as important as men's perspective. Then I tried to imagined how > theory, sociology and society would be if feminist theories were to > dominate > sociology. Thus, the question is as follows: > > If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might the consequences > be > for theory, for sociology and society? > > > Sharon > From tombrown@jhu.edu Mon Mar 23 09:48:12 1998 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA09262 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:48:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IV06FMA816ASCHCN@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:46:20 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA23909 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:48:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:48:00 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: theory? To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803231648.LAA23909@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Sorry to post so much, but this statement by Thomas F Brown disturbed me: > >> Is your professor actually making a case for Gilman as a classical >> sociological theorist, or is she included to fill a quota? >Thomas, if you have a problem with Gilman's social theory then why not >criticize her on the grounds of her intellectual work? It is frightening >to hear somebody using the scholarship of woman who struggled against >patriarchal oppression just to take a cheap shot at moderate gender >diversity programs. I just wanted to know how Gilman might be construed as a classic sociological theorist. I'm guessing she *is* being included because the instructor wanted to include a woman, rather than because she is construed as a classic theorist. If that is the reason, I have no major objection. I wouldn't do it, but if another instructor wants to, I can see some justification for it. I have a rather high standard for including any theorist in a required course. I think that their work needs to be relevant to contemporary streams of theory and research. Few writers from a century ago qualify. I would include Marx, Freud, and Marshall, because their theories and methods are still being directly grappled with today. Weber, Durkheim, and maybe a few others might make the cut because their methods and terminologies are still used, and because problems that they introduced are still being addressed, although their findings have been superseded. Gilman doesn't make the cut on these criteria. She is worth reading from a historical perspective, because she was important in her day. People took her ideas seriously back then. But her writing is not directly relevant to contemporary theory or research. Everything she wrote has been superseded by superior contemporary work. Gilman's conception of social stratification was crude even in her own day, and it looks ridiculous today. Gilman didn't introduce any new theoretical problems or methods. You can easily work today on questions of gender stratification without needing to consider Gilman's work. It's just not that important anymore. She is only of historical interest. If I were offering a class on social thought in US history, then Gilman would certainly be included. But my view is that a required course in classical sociologiocal theory should only include writers whose work is still relevant to contemporary research and theory. Gilman is not. From tombrown@jhu.edu Mon Mar 23 09:57:37 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA09753 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:57:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IV06R1LN0WB4SZ6D@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:55:33 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id LAA01798 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:57:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:57:19 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Feminist Theory To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803231657.LAA01798@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> References: <199803222100.QAA23587@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >Thomas - are you saying that epistemology is not sexist? You might want >to read _Feminist Epistemologies_ ed. by Alcott and Potter. The >legitimatization of knowledge has belonged (and still does) to white, >heterosexual male scholars and researchers. The knowledge that gets >legitimatized is positivist, scientific, academic research. That serves >to keep out women and men of color. Those who are admitted tend to be >people who will only rock the boat a little bit, so the academy can say >"look how progressive we are." I think most of us accept the fact that >knowledge is multifacted and is gathered from many sources. Patricia >Hill Collins wrote beautifully about this in _Black Feminist Thought_. I've read these critiques, and I find them interesting. But these writers don't offer any concrete alternatives. It's all too vague and abstract, and of no immediate practical use. This critique is also disrespectful of minority scientists who are producing results within the dominant epistemological paradigms. From c646827@showme.missouri.edu Mon Mar 23 10:09:29 1998 Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id KAA10849 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:09:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from showme.missouri.edu ([209.90.4.191]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA101400 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:09:07 -0600 Message-ID: <351695F5.AC716B14@showme.missouri.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:03:50 -0600 From: Brent Myer MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Feminist Theory References: <199803222100.QAA23587@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> <35162399.6DA5@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Snow wrote: > Thomas - are you saying that epistemology is not sexist? You might want > to read _Feminist Epistemologies_ ed. by Alcott and Potter. The > legitimatization of knowledge has belonged (and still does) to white, > heterosexual male scholars and researchers. The knowledge that gets > legitimatized is positivist, scientific, academic research. That serves > to keep out women and men of color. Those who are admitted tend to be > people who will only rock the boat a little bit, so the academy can say > "look how progressive we are." I think most of us accept the fact that > knowledge is multifacted and is gathered from many sources. Patricia > Hill Collins wrote beautifully about this in _Black Feminist Thought_. > I hate to be too critical of you Sharon, but the legitimation of positivist, scientific, academic research also excludes white males who practice alternative methods for knowledge production. And from what i can see, there are academic journals for any type of knoweldge that i know of--including short stories and peotry work. I am not up on the Feminists literature, but i am aware of the arguements contained in them for qualitative methods--women studying women--and such, but there are Feminists that I personally know from the 2 departments that i have dwelled in that are quantitative researchers. Their skills in producing positivist knoweldge have gained them entry, and in some cases tenure in their universities. I'm curious if you know of any research on the legitimacy issue. for instance are there more males that females in sociology that are involved in the peer review process (the major form of gatekeeping in our field). If so, please let me (us) know, i would like to read it. From what i know about the demographics in sociology, there are more female professors than males--but more FULL professors are male. And i know for sure that there are more female grad-students in sociology than males. So if one were able to show that there are significantly more reviewers that are male than female than in the population (potential sociology reviewers) than i think that would tell us something about this issue. I'm sure there would be other ways, but that one jumped out. and i know that this would not be a great study as presented...not all females are feminists and many males are, but it would give a first indication of this gatekeeping issue. I was at Boarders the other day an noticed that the Gender Studies section was nearly as large as the entire Sociology section. I thought that was telling as to the importance of some forms of Feminists influence. Since I'm chatting away, let me add one other thing. There has been a rise in universities of departments in Women's Studies. Many of these departments use sociological reasoning in their work. So that would have to be taken into consideration when we talk about how marginalized this scholarship is. Compair that with the white male dominated Marxist sociology that as far as i know, has never had it's own department on class studies. in solidarity --Brent From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Mon Mar 23 11:22:22 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA15110 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:22:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id NAA27587; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:22:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:22:08 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <351695F5.AC716B14@showme.missouri.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Brent, Whiteness and maleness are culture-ideological structures. White males who practice social science critical of these structures will be marginalized. Of course. But this does not dent the critique of whiteness and maleness or their expression in dominant sociological approaches. Sandra Harding work exposes the sexist and racist tack of suggesting that it is neutral epistemological positions that exclude voices and not patriarchal and white supremacist structures. This it the ideology of neutrality. The ideology of neutrality masks the racist, sexist, and bourgeois character of dominant modes of knowledge production. Women who give up critique to practice dominant positivist modes of knowledge production are engaging in the co-optation processes in bourgeois society. This neutrality view, which is central to the positivist enterprise, confuses neutrality with objectivity, which is precisely why its status is ideology not science. Thus, people who leave critical scientific production to practice "neutral" positivism enter the realm of ideological production - not only do these people abandon their critical standpoints but they also abandon science. Of course, some methods associated with positivism are useful. The question is one of standpoint. For this reason, feminist empiricism and other attempts to "do science better," by coupling feminist interests with positivist science, do little in advancing science. More generally, I am seeing arguments on this list that carry an embedded essentialism that ties whiteness and maleness to the phenotypes and culture and ethnic markers of individuals. It is quite obvious in the posts of a couple of individuals, particularly in the reactionism of Matt Hoover, who is now simply parading right wing philosophy around the list - in the form of knee jerk anti-communism at that. As if we needed more confirmation of his bigotry. Feminist methods are not feminist because women practice them. Feminist methods are feminist because they attack the patriarchy and seek liberation for marginalized groups. Andy From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Mon Mar 23 11:44:12 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA15491 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:44:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id NAA03340; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:44:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:44:06 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <19980322225517.649.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, David Redmon wrote: > >That we have different perspectives of the world doesn't change the > >factual nature of a changing, relative, and singular reality; > > What do you mean by the last sentence? Help me out. What is it that is not clear? Is it the term "relative" in a sentence containing the words "changing" and "singular" that is troubling? Assuming that this might be the problem, by "relative" I mean material and physical relativity. I reject the traditional form of cultural relativity as an epistemological standpoint because it commits the epistemic fallacy (reducing the world to knowledge about the world, thus different views of the world = different worlds). However, the world is different in different places and times on a material and physical basis. It is still singular in that there are not different worlds. It is relative because the singular world is differentiated. This is a big distinction. It is the basic scientific materialist position. See Milton Fisk. > Is this really an objective understanding of society? If what you said is correct. i.e., if it is an accurate statement about the character of the world, then, yes, it is an objective understanding of society. If it is not an accurate statement about the world then it is not objective, but ideological. This is an empirical question. > Science purports to be objective. The historical matrialist position, > like many others, is steeped with biases, beliefs, and assumptions, many > of which cannot be tested "scientifically." You are confusing objectivity with neutrality. Neutrality demands that knowledge be bias-free. This is not possible. Thus if it is objectively impossible to produce bias-free knowledge the demand of neutrality is false and ideological. In order to move to an objective position, one that holds that bias is an inherent part of knowledge systems, one must give up the demand for bias-free knowledge. You must stand somewhere. The idea that historical materialism is steeped with "beliefs" is a non-argument. All knowledge systems are predicated on beliefs. One cannot stand outside knowledge - this is not to know, an absurdity. And as for "assumptions," no knowledge system can exist without assumptions. Thus your argument fails on two points. First, it equates neutrality with objectivity, a false position. For you to move towards objectivity you must give up the ideal of neutrality, and only a critical standpoint can permit this. Historical materialism, as Postone and Habermas have pointed out, is the only system that reflexively incorporates this perspective into its standpoint. Second, you have set for any knowledge system an impossible standard of not being a knowledge system, which is absurd. Beliefs and assumptions are intrinsic to knowledge systems. You have taken a tautology and attempted to raise it to the level of a critique. Your position is deeply contradicted. > This position is one worldview among the many; it attempts to persuade > the public; and it legitimizes itself by claiming to be scientific, > when, in fact, it's not. As you can see, now that the premises of your argument have evaporated, this conclusion does not follow from anything. If historical materialism cannot be scientific for the reasons you have given, then there is no such thing as science. If this is the case then we have no ground upon which to discuss the matter. Andy From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Mon Mar 23 17:23:25 1998 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id RAA00270 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:23:23 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 25319 invoked by alias); 24 Mar 1998 00:23:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 25307 invoked from network); 24 Mar 1998 00:23:21 -0000 Received: from schutz.rutgers.edu (HELO schutz) (128.6.145.68) by erebus.rutgers.edu with SMTP; 24 Mar 1998 00:23:21 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980323182333.00970100@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:23:33 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <35162399.6DA5@airmail.net> References: <199803222100.QAA23587@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think there is a debilitating logic underlying the notion that positivism and science is the exclusive domain of white heterosexual men and that humanism, art, and liberatory politices are the exlusive domains of women and men of color. Certainly the notion that women and men of color cannot or should not make good scientists or positivists is demeaning to the scientific skills of women and racial/ethnic minorities. Likewise the notion that white heterosexual men are necessarily incapable of doing good humanist or emancipatory work is equally problematic. While race and sex/gender do have real life consequences that on average confer unearned privilege to whites and males, they are also but two identity traits in everyone's constellation of multiple identities and social locations. We are all privileged as social researchers and we all have some social locations that disprivilege us; none of us has an exclusive monopoly on either privilege or social disadvantage. Given this there is far more variation within the thought styles and worldviews of the category "women" and the category "men" than between the means of the two categories (ditto for "people of color" and "people of no color"). Women who review for ASR might share more in common epistemologically with men ASR reviewers than they do with women reviewers of Signs, etc.. These observations are consistent, of course, with much of the insights and debates produced within feminist theories in recent years. Wayne Brekhus At 12:55 AM 3/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Thomas - are you saying that epistemology is not sexist? You might want >to read _Feminist Epistemologies_ ed. by Alcott and Potter. The >legitimatization of knowledge has belonged (and still does) to white, >heterosexual male scholars and researchers. The knowledge that gets >legitimatized is positivist, scientific, academic research. That serves >to keep out women and men of color. Those who are admitted tend to be >people who will only rock the boat a little bit, so the academy can say >"look how progressive we are." I think most of us accept the fact that >knowledge is multifacted and is gathered from many sources. Patricia >Hill Collins wrote beautifully about this in _Black Feminist Thought_. > > >Sharon Snow >Texas Woman's University > > From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Mar 23 20:42:35 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id UAA07890 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:42:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0137; Mon, 23 Mar 98 22:42:40 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1260; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:42:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 22:32:00 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Standards for social theorists To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980323.224216.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Well, I myself also have my high standards for social theorists. More particularly, I wouldn't include any of the contemporary ratcho (perhaps Elster would be an exception) or Economic Sociologists as Sociological theorists worthy of being taught in a social theory course -- especially considering such folks have neglected the grand theory of Marx and Parsons (and how Parsons in particular explicitly rejected Spencerian notions of economic rationality and its role in the market) in order to advance their careers by reifying how one social class of white males tends to think and applying to every member of society. Of course, I am partially sarcastic and cynical (going on almost eighteen hours awake now), but I think one winds up in great difficulty if they begin arguing who is a social theorist, who is a sociological theorist, and how central certain ideas are or should be. For the record, I am probably one of the few sociological traditionalists left in the sense of if you don't have theory, you don't have Sociology as a distinct science, but that's another discussion. From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Tue Mar 24 00:47:12 1998 Received: from scf-fs.usc.edu (scf-fs.usc.edu [128.125.253.183]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA21390 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:47:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from hal (ciscoserv-230-028.usc.edu [128.125.230.28]) by scf-fs.usc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/usc) with ESMTP id XAA01420 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:47:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803240747.XAA01420@scf-fs.usc.edu> From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:31:03 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent--lots of good points but I'm thinking more care sholud be taken on the comparisons. Just because feminism is more mainstream then Marxism doesn't say much. And that the gender section is as big at your bookstore as the sociology section may say more about the marginality of soc in the larger society. I appreciate your question about the sex of the gatekeepers. It seems to me that deans, tenured faculty, department heads, editors trustees, grant givers, etc. ARE predominantly male (and white, heterosexual, afluent, etc.) But I'd like to see the numbers--anybody know? A better question though might be what are the politics of these folks. After all, its not to hard to be a token if you go with the dominant paradigm.....Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: Brent Myer > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: Re: Feminist Theory > Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 9:03 AM > > > > Sharon Snow wrote: > > > Thomas - are you saying that epistemology is not sexist? You might want > > to read _Feminist Epistemologies_ ed. by Alcott and Potter. The > > legitimatization of knowledge has belonged (and still does) to white, > > heterosexual male scholars and researchers. The knowledge that gets > > legitimatized is positivist, scientific, academic research. That serves > > to keep out women and men of color. Those who are admitted tend to be > > people who will only rock the boat a little bit, so the academy can say > > "look how progressive we are." I think most of us accept the fact that > > knowledge is multifacted and is gathered from many sources. Patricia > > Hill Collins wrote beautifully about this in _Black Feminist Thought_. > > > > I hate to be too critical of you Sharon, but the legitimation of positivist, > scientific, academic research also excludes white males who practice > alternative methods for knowledge production. And from what i can see, there > are academic journals for any type of knoweldge that i know of--including > short stories and peotry work. I am not up on the Feminists literature, but > i am aware of the arguements contained in them for qualitative > methods--women studying women--and such, but there are Feminists that I > personally know from the 2 departments that i have dwelled in that are > quantitative researchers. Their skills in producing positivist knoweldge > have gained them entry, and in some cases tenure in their universities. > > I'm curious if you know of any research on the legitimacy issue. for > instance are there more males that females in sociology that are involved in > the peer review process (the major form of gatekeeping in our field). If > so, please let me (us) know, i would like to read it. From what i know > about the demographics in sociology, there are more female professors than > males--but more FULL professors are male. And i know for sure that there are > more female grad-students in sociology than males. So if one were able to > show that there are significantly more reviewers that are male than female > than in the population (potential sociology reviewers) than i think that > would tell us something about this issue. I'm sure there would be other > ways, but that one jumped out. and i know that this would not be a great > study as presented...not all females are feminists and many males are, but > it would give a first indication of this gatekeeping issue. > > I was at Boarders the other day an noticed that the Gender Studies section > was nearly as large as the entire Sociology section. I thought that was > telling as to the importance of some forms of Feminists influence. Since > I'm chatting away, let me add one other thing. There has been a rise in > universities of departments in Women's Studies. Many of these departments > use sociological reasoning in their work. So that would have to be taken > into consideration when we talk about how marginalized this scholarship is. > Compair that with the white male dominated Marxist sociology that as far as > i know, has never had it's own department on class studies. > > in solidarity > > --Brent > > From dnaylor@scf-fs.usc.edu Tue Mar 24 00:47:14 1998 Received: from scf-fs.usc.edu (scf-fs.usc.edu [128.125.253.183]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA21398 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:47:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from hal (ciscoserv-230-028.usc.edu [128.125.230.28]) by scf-fs.usc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/usc) with ESMTP id XAA01434 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:47:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803240747.XAA01434@scf-fs.usc.edu> From: "Don Naylor" To: Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:39:54 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shawn, yes it is discomforting to be made invisible. But as a feminist/profeminist man it seems to comes with the territory. I mean, if we realize how marginal to the larger society feminism is (despite the comments of one of us) and then you think about how marginal seriously feminist women are, well then, we're really out in the marginal zone I think. I just hope it builds character or something of redeeming value. At the very least it seems to me that it teaches me how it feels to be most of the world. Don Ps some though, have argued that profeminist men have more visibility and prestige then feminist women. That are male privilege protects us somewhat (at least relative to feminist women). Probably ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D Department of Sociology University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 wrk. 213-740-3544 hm. 213-748-7378 fax 213-740-3535 dnaylor@usc.edu I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... ---------- > From: Shawn Vlad > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > Subject: RE: Feminist Theory > Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 7:56 AM > > I wasn't aware that feminist theory was inherently practiced by only women. > I guess I will have to take the F-theory out of my thesis. Dam and I > thought that I was doing so well by integrating it in to it. As a "man" who > is practicing feminist theory i find your remarks about mens and womens > perspectives a bit discomforting. Can only women practice feminist theory? > Does the fact that I am a man preclude any knowledge or insights in to a > theoritical prespective and knowledge base that I might want to add to. I > fear that because feminist theory was founded by women and mostly practiced > by women the few men that choose this perspective are being marginilized :0. > Inorder for any perspective to dominiate anyfield it must cross the > boundries of both class and gender. Feminist theory has the chance to do > that i think. If only we would open our arms to all...... > > then again I could be wrong > > Shawn Vlad > SIU@carbondale, IL > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BLawre1895 [SMTP:BLawre1895@aol.com] > > Sent: Saturday, March 21, 1998 6:37 AM > > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > > Subject: Re:Feminist Theory > > > > I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a > > marginal sociological theory today. I personally think women's > > perspectives > > are just as important as men's perspective. Then I tried to imagined how > > theory, sociology and society would be if feminist theories were to > > dominate > > sociology. Thus, the question is as follows: > > > > If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might the consequences > > be > > for theory, for sociology and society? > > > > > > Sharon > > From kcwalker@syr.edu Tue Mar 24 02:07:42 1998 Received: from mailbox.syr.edu (mailbox.syr.edu [128.230.1.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id CAA25025 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:07:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from kcwalker (sudial0405-098.syr.edu [128.230.1.98]) by mailbox.syr.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA22579 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:07:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980324040724.007c1100@mailbox.syr.edu> X-Sender: kcwalker@mailbox.syr.edu Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:07:24 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Kelley Crouse Subject: Re:Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980322165215.007c8100@mailbox.syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Andy, I think we generally share similar views so there really isn't much to argue about. But, I just wanted to let you know that I might like to respond to a couple of things later and that I wasn't blowing you off. Right now I have to prepare for a couple of job interviews over the next few weeks so I don't have time! Why I get myself involved in these things when I should know better....? I think it's a pathology I developed in grad school in order to deal with stress. Kelley At 07:21 PM 3/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Kelley Crouse wrote: > >> What is gatekeeping, on your view. I'm not being confrontational here; >> I'm simply asking for a definition of terms. > >I don't see you as being confrontational at all, so don't worry about >that. "Gatekeeping" is a person or group of persons who stands at the >"gate" letting people and ideas in and out. More specifically, and this is >the sense I see it being used in this discussion, it is a term with two >elements: (1) suggesting a certain "political correctness," e.g., the >Stalinist who refuses to entertain modifications made by Western Marxists; >(2) then this person or group of persons excludes various persons from the >communist cell because they entertain subversive views. Another example is >the academic department with a right wing political hegemony excluding >potential subversives from the pool of applicants, e.g., an economics >department keeping out Marxists. > >This is different than pointing out that a right winger cannot be a left >winger, or that a polluting chemical manufacturer cannot be >environmentalist. A physics department is not gatekeeping when it informs >a tele-evangelist seeking a position in their department that he will have >to preach somewhere else. Or, more realistically, it is not gatekeeping to >inform the residents of a community that creationism cannot be among the >alternative theories to be taught in high school biology class, anymore >than evolution can be a competing explanation for the intensity of the >love of Jesus Christ in Sunday school. If gatekeeping is used in such a >comprehensive way, then it becomes a meaningless and useless term. >Gatekeeping is a specific form of exclusion, and it should retain its >specificity. > >> >The Monsanto corporation cannot claim to be environmentalist. >> >> Well they *CAN* and they do. > >Monsanto may and do claim to be environmentalist. But it doesn't mean they >can be environmentalist in the sense I mean by that sentence. In any sense >of reality Monsanto cannot claim they are environmentalist - their >activities are objectively destructive to ecosystems. People lie, >particularly polluting corporations. Sorry for the ambiguity. > >> I think you mean they *should* not claim to be envrionmentalist > >I didn't mean this. They should claim whatever they like. But their >propaganda must be measured against reality. If fact, it seems only >rational that Monsanto should lie about their polluting activities. If >they don't then the public may work to restrict Monsanto's business (a big >maybe given the current passivity of the masses). And where would Monsanto >be then? > >> Which is precisely my point. To say that anything can be considered >> social/sociological theory, it seems to me, is to render it meaningless. > >I agree. Not everything can be social/sociology theory. Most of what >exists in social science as theory is not really theory anyway. It is not >systematic and it doesn't explain the facts. Most of what passes for >social theory and social science generally is ideology. Rarely do >positivist exercises rise to the theoretical level. Most of it is just >descriptive accounting. > >> I don't think Adam Smith, Atistotle, David Hume, or Montesquie are >> sociological theorists, though certainly they were social theorists and >> certainly they each, at times, made forays into sociological theory. > >Can you explain this to me? Sociology means "the study of the associate." >Smith was more sociological in his work that probably 90% of what passes >for contemporary sociology. Sure, his work suffered from ideological >constraints, but it was nevertheless sociological. Indeed, from Smith and >Hume's work, later sociologists, such as Thomas and Cooley derived the >basis of their social theory (though Cooley never cited Smith or Hume, his >"looking glass self" is a literal translation of Hume's "theory of >sympathy," which became the basis of Smith's *Moral Sentiments of Man*). > >Your question about what is social theory seems to be a different >questions from what are the disciplinary boundaries of sociology, which is >what I think you are really discussing. The restriction for scientific and >theoretical development should be constrained by deeper ontological and >epistemological questions, not by academic turf cutting. Maybe we are just >talking past each other here. > >> I don't see anything particularly wrong with it, as long as we >> continue to be vigilant about the sociohistorical context within which >> we develop such distinctions and recognize that our distinctions are >> always tentative and must be subject to critical revision. > >I agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments. Whatever you call it, gate >keeping or whatever, we cannot avoid normative assertions in judgments >about science. And we should always be aware of the social and historical >context of knowledge production and always be critical. We should also >never loose sight of the materialist basis of science and forget to check >the growing autonomy of knowledge systems from the objective reality they >seek to approximate. > >Andy > > > From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Tue Mar 24 03:48:14 1998 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id DAA28021 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:48:12 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 23150 invoked by alias); 24 Mar 1998 10:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 23144 invoked from network); 24 Mar 1998 10:47:58 -0000 Received: from schutz.rutgers.edu (HELO schutz) (128.6.145.68) by erebus.rutgers.edu with SMTP; 24 Mar 1998 10:47:58 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980324044813.0096aa20@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:48:13 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <199803240747.XAA01434@scf-fs.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don, I think you are right in both statements. Pro-feminist men in some contexts may be additionally marginalized AND in others male privilege protects pro-feminist men in ways that feminist women are not protected. Whether the interaction effect of male with feminism creates a situation of "extra jeopardy" (i.e. Shawn's question) or whether maleness "washes out" the stigma of being also a "feminist" depends largely on the context. For example, in my teaching I find that I am conferred extra advantages to say things about racism and sexism and male privilege and white privilege precisely because I am male and white (undergrads can't call me a feminazi or a male hater and they don't write me off as just having a personal axe to grind). My observations are seen as more "legitimate" because they cannot be easily dismissed by claiming I just think that way because I'm "black" "a woman" etc. Having that extra elbow room to be confrontational and speak truth to power about gender and racial discrimination that some of my colleagues in marked gender and racial locations don't have is an unearned pedagogical advantage that my socially privileged statuses give me. In this context the advantages of the interaction between maleness and pro-feminist far outweigh any disadvantageous interaction effects. On the other hand, for job prospects there might be a gender stratification between subfields and a separate gender stratification within subields. Perhaps one of the consequences of women's limited access to full representation in theory and methods and the most socially valued subfields of the discipline, is that departments are reluctant to "give up" their gender slots or feminist theory slots to a male. That is, some slots such as methods and theory are not explicitly sex-typed or race-typed though they may discriminate against women and/or minorities in other less obvious ways. And other subfields such as gender, race, feminist studies etc may be advertised and filled with the assumption that they are being created for specific "social types." Being both a feminist studies scholar and a male may, in this context, create an interaction effect wherein maleness is actually an additional negative charge when coupled with feminism, rather than a positive charge that washes out the initial negative charge of feminism. At the very least I have noticed a disturbing trend among some academics in both privileged and marginalized social locations to believe that you must belong to a group to study it and that you have a special obligation to study "your own kind" (Gary Marx mentions this concern in his 1997 American Sociologist article) [note also some tacit hints from this present debate that minorities and women who become quantitative positivists are selling out on their "duty" to engage in oppositional emancipatory studies]. Taken to its logical extreme this, of course, would create a situation wherein "people of color" are expected/obligated to theorize about race and or minority groups, women are expected/obligated to theorize about gender and or women, and white men to theorize about "social life" and "social actors" generally [note the "false generics"]. Moreover if we took it to its logical conclusion the exclusionary notion that we can and should only study our own "identity group" is that none of us can theorize beyond the limited subpopulation of "other graduate-trained sociologists who share our racial, class, gender, religious, regional, occupational position etc. etc." After all, these are all facets of our identity and to study anyone who wasn't *all* of these things would subject us to the claim that we are not one of them. Well I rambled well beyond my initial reply to your post and its late... Wayne Brekhus At 11:39 PM 3/23/98 -0800, you wrote: >Shawn, yes it is discomforting to be made invisible. But as a >feminist/profeminist man it seems to comes with the territory. I mean, if >we realize how marginal to the larger society feminism is (despite the >comments of one of us) and then you think about how marginal seriously >feminist women are, well then, we're really out in the marginal zone I >think. I just hope it builds character or something of redeeming value. >At the very least it seems to me that it teaches me how it feels to be most >of the world. Don > >Ps some though, have argued that profeminist men have more visibility and >prestige then feminist women. That are male privilege protects us somewhat >(at least relative to feminist women). Probably >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Don Naylor, BA BA ABcl,th,q&D >Department of Sociology >University of Southern California >Los Angeles, CA 90089-2539 > >wrk. 213-740-3544 >hm. 213-748-7378 >fax 213-740-3535 > >dnaylor@usc.edu > >I do read my email but not necessarily every day.... > >---------- >> From: Shawn Vlad >> To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International > >> Subject: RE: Feminist Theory >> Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 7:56 AM >> >> I wasn't aware that feminist theory was inherently practiced by only >women. >> I guess I will have to take the F-theory out of my thesis. Dam and I >> thought that I was doing so well by integrating it in to it. As a "man" >who >> is practicing feminist theory i find your remarks about mens and womens >> perspectives a bit discomforting. Can only women practice feminist >theory? >> Does the fact that I am a man preclude any knowledge or insights in to a >> theoritical prespective and knowledge base that I might want to add to. >I >> fear that because feminist theory was founded by women and mostly >practiced >> by women the few men that choose this perspective are being marginilized >:0. >> Inorder for any perspective to dominiate anyfield it must cross the >> boundries of both class and gender. Feminist theory has the chance to do >> that i think. If only we would open our arms to all...... >> >> then again I could be wrong >> >> Shawn Vlad >> SIU@carbondale, IL >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: BLawre1895 [SMTP:BLawre1895@aol.com] >> > Sent: Saturday, March 21, 1998 6:37 AM >> > To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International >> > Subject: Re:Feminist Theory >> > >> > I am interested in feminist theory and I was wondering why it is such a >> > marginal sociological theory today. I personally think women's >> > perspectives >> > are just as important as men's perspective. Then I tried to imagined >how >> > theory, sociology and society would be if feminist theories were to >> > dominate >> > sociology. Thus, the question is as follows: >> > >> > If feminist theory was to dominate sociology, what might the >consequences >> > be >> > for theory, for sociology and society? >> > >> > >> > Sharon >> > > > From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Tue Mar 24 07:16:26 1998 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id HAA04450 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:16:23 -0700 (MST) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id JAA05114; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:14:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:14:58 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: Sociology Graduate Student Discussion Subject: Visiting position (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FYI- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:28:17 -0700 From: Chris Prendergast To: TEACHSOC@maple.lemoyne.edu Subject: Visiting position If anyone on this list knows someone looking for a one-year teaching appointment, please bring the following to their attention. Thanks! The Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Illinois Wesleyan University seeks qualified applicants for a one-year position as Visiting Professor of Sociology. Applicant will be expected to teach six courses including three sections of Social Problems, the History of Social Thought, Social Stratification, and one specialty course of the applicant's choice. Ph.D. with teaching experience will be preferred, although ABD will be considered. Illinois Wesleyan is a liberal arts institution of 2000 students that values active learning and general education. Salary is competitive. Deadline: April 1. Interviews will be conducted at the Midwest Sociological Society meeting in Kansas City, April 2-5. Send cv, letter of interest, and evaluation of teaching performance. Contact: Chris Prendergast, Chair, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Illnois Weselyan University, Bloomington, IL 61702-2900, tel (309) 556-3088, cprender@titan.iwu.edu. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Mar 24 09:18:29 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id JAA12562 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:18:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2445; Tue, 24 Mar 98 11:18:00 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 3910; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:18:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 11:12:17 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Essentializing? To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980324.111735.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I don't think anyone is purposefully essentializing (at least I hope not) -- and in my post last night I was more sarcastic than serious (although I do have a certain hatred of sociologies which confuse independent and dependent variables -- even if they do have a greater probability of obtaining grant money). I think the more general point though, is at least in some places it is difficult enough to get critical/radical epistemologies taught and accepted as research by grad. students and junior folks even with a relatively integrated faculty gender and racewise. Over the years here at UCONN, we have had our share of Dorothy Smith disciples or contributors to the Insurgent Sociologist interviewing for jobs (Marjorie Devault was one 8 years ago), but we have never seriously entertained hiring them. From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Tue Mar 24 09:22:42 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.49.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id JAA12882 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:22:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA08517 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:22:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:22:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199803241622.LAA08517@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Lets play *deconstructing* Andy!....C. Wright Mills wrote a chapter in The Sociological Imagination that attempts to "translate" Parsons into English, at least Parson's had something worthwhile even if he clouded it in a bunch monosyllabic nonsense. >Whiteness and maleness are culture-ideological structures. White males who >practice social science critical of these structures will be marginalized. It is a white male conspiracy that has keep your ideas from the mainstream now is it? It has nothing to do with the paucity of your argument? I love it when Marxists blame the "social structure" for the failure of thier own ideas. My favorite is when they blame the media as being a tool of the ruling elite, thus infecting all the rest of us with the ruling ideas that maintain them in power. Thus the "ruling ideas" are the ideas of the ruling class. The ideology argument prevents anyone from penetrating the mental straightjacket of Marxist rhetoric. We are not free individuals with the ability to create our own destiny, but are held captive by those damn greedy capitalists that control everything. >Of course. But this does not dent the critique of whiteness and maleness >or their expression in dominant sociological approaches. Sandra Harding >work exposes the sexist and racist tack of suggesting that it is neutral >epistemological positions that exclude voices and not patriarchal and >white supremacist structures. You are evidence of the open nature of sociological argument. Thank God that we are a discipline that is open, and is not dominated by one, and only one, theoretical viewpoint. We have free speech in this country, nobody is excluding anyone's voices in the argument. It is the extreme nut case feminists like Dworkin that prevents debate and other voices, she refuses to debate anyone that takes a position other than her own. It is through the rigourous challenging of our beliefs that science is all about. If you are not secure enough in your own position to defend it from scrutiny, than maybe what you believe is wrong. Here again we see the buzzwords of the radical left, "patriarchy" and "white supremacy" used to cloud the issues. >This it the ideology of neutrality. The >ideology of neutrality masks the racist, sexist, and bourgeois character >of dominant modes of knowledge production. Women who give up critique to >practice dominant positivist modes of knowledge production are engaging in >the co-optation processes in bourgeois society. Here is some more linguistic verbiage thrown in for good measure. In other words, women who disagree with you and your "oppression" view of the world are the ones who are held captive by the "bourgeois" ideology?. They are "co-opted" by those damn capitalists huh?...The evidence of there being any Marxist thought whatsoever, proves that "bourgeois" argument is flawed, if you were able to overcome this overwhellming influence, what makes you think that the rest of us can't? >This neutrality view, >which is central to the positivist enterprise, confuses neutrality with >objectivity, which is precisely why its status is ideology not science. There is no such thing as "social facts", I disagree with Comte and Durkheim on the nature of science, but that does not mean that we don't have to challenge our believes to scrutiny. There is still such a thing as evidence, and simply saying that something is true does not make it so. >Thus, people who leave critical scientific production to practice >"neutral" positivism enter the realm of ideological production - not >only do these people abandon their critical standpoints but they also >abandon science. What makes what you produce not the same thing your are criticizing? All social science produces an interpretation of facts. Those facts can be objective, but without interpretation they are meaningless. You make the interpretations that you want to a set of objective facts, that does not mean you are correct. History has proved Marx wrong (the labor theory of value and historical materialism as examples). >Of course, some methods associated with positivism are >useful. The question is one of standpoint. For this reason, feminist >empiricism and other attempts to "do science better," by coupling feminist >interests with positivist science, do little in advancing science. In the preceding clause you say that "neutral positivism" is not "science", and now you say that some of the methods are usefull, which is it? If feminists engage in scientific research, that is great. We will still disagree with the interpretation, but nobody has the monopoly on facts. >More generally, I am seeing arguments on this list that carry an embedded >essentialism that ties whiteness and maleness to the phenotypes and >culture and ethnic markers of individuals. It is quite obvious in the >posts of a couple of individuals, particularly in the reactionism of Matt >Hoover, who is now simply parading right wing philosophy around the list - >in the form of knee jerk anti-communism at that. As if we needed more >confirmation of his bigotry. I am a bigot because I disagree with your interpretation of the world? Why is anyone who confronts the circular nature of Marxist rhethoric called a right-winger? I love these Ivory towed middle-class panzy Marxists who call others "right-wingers" without an iota of truth. These suburban petty academics who have never seen the inner-city once in their life. I have done more to help those less fortunate in this world than you ever have, and maybe when you can overcome the mental straighjacket of Marxism can you come and see the truth. Hoover From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Tue Mar 24 11:18:09 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id LAA18723 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:18:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id NAA13761; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:18:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:18:06 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <199803241622.LAA08517@csu-e.csuohio.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Matthew Hoover wrote: > Lets play *deconstructing* Andy! > > >Whiteness and maleness are culture-ideological structures. White males who > >practice social science critical of these structures will be marginalized. > > It is a white male conspiracy that has keep your ideas from the mainstream > now is it? Before you play the game of deconstruction you had better brush up on your ability to understand straight-forward concepts. That I refer to the culture-ideological is right there before your eyes. Where do I say, or where it is even implied that there is a conspiracy? One more reactionary retort from you Matt, this is. Now because I talk about the reality and force of culture and ideology I am a "conspiracy theorist." Your rhetoric is National Empowerment Television crap. > I love it when Marxists blame the "social structure" for the failure of > thier own ideas. Which of their ideas have failed? I always puzzle over this talk about how Marxists are wrong about everything. People are often wrong about particular points without the theory suffering. But Marxist forecasting and explanation is without peer. Marxists correctly predict that the contradictions inherent in the workings of capitalism lead to a progressive concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands. What is more, concentration of wealth occurs for precisely the reasons they specify. Marxists correctly predict that capitalism increasingly impoverishes the world's population. The gulf between rich and poor today is greater than at any time in world history (and growing ever worse). There are nearly one and a half billion people living in absolute (not relative) poverty. Marxists predict that there will be an absolute increase in the size of the surplus population. They are correct - the surplus population is increasing and for precisely for the reasons they give (technological displacement as a result of the increasing organic composition of capital). Globally, 30% of the work force is now either unemployed or underemployed. Marxists predict that market capitalism evolves into different forms, such as monopoly capitalism. They are correct. More than this, these developments occur for the reasons they identify - the increasing predominance of money capital and the elimination of competition. Marxists predict other forms of domination and exploitation, such as imperialist expansion, and, again for precisely the reasons they specify these developments have come to pass. Marx and Engels, in the Communist Manifesto, predicted that capitalism would spread around the world, displacing all other modes of production and remake the world in its own image. They were correct. Marxists are the ones who explain how capital expands, solving the dilemma of classical economic theory. Marxists have identified, explained, and predicted the numerous types of capitalist crisis, from crises of disproportionality to underconsumption/overproduction to the increasing organic composition of capital. Marxists, Bukharin, Lenin, and Bonger (all writing at the turn of the century), made amazing predictions based on the tenets of historical materialism, predictions that have come to pass; e.g., Bonger's 1905 prediction that crime among women would increase with their increasing participation in the workforce, a prediction based on Marx and Engels theory of relative deprivation and exposure of bourgeois values (advanced by Engels in 1844). In fact, imperialism as a geopolitical and international economic system is explained almost entirely by the logic of capitalist crisis theoretically developed by Marxists. I could continue with this. I hear the reactionaries making this claim that Marxist ideas don't work. But the facts are contrary to the ideological pronouncements. Marxist ideas do work. They are disfavored for precisely this reason. Marxist ideas are a threat to Matt and his ilk who - when convenient - prefer to deny the reality of culture and ideology, reducing it to "conspiracy theory." Had I made the structural argument I would no doubt have been criticized for leaving out culture and ideas. This is the game the right wing plays. Catch-22. That critical standpoints are open to revision and are in fact revised obviates Matt's portrait of an unyielding self-sealing position. But I don't think Matt is concerned with the facts. > My favorite is when they blame the media as being a tool of the > ruling elite The mass media *is* a weapon of the ruling elite. Mass media are owned and controlled by giant corporations. You are blowing off empirical reality, Matt. The empty ideas you profess here are bad enough, but nothing is more bankrupt than ideas that deny facts. Didn't you appeal to C. Wright Mills at the top of you post when you confused developed conceptual language with pretension? What did Mills have to say about the ruling elite? > We are not free individuals with the ability to create our own destiny, > but are held captive by those damn greedy capitalists that control > everything. Do you deny that the country is run by the business class? Get the C. Wright Mills out of your house! That subversive bastard will poison your mind, Matt. The reason why we have the working poor is because these individuals, free to create their destiny, fail to do so? Are they lazy? Innately inferior - maybe mentally deficient? Or is it bad cultural values? What did Gingrich say about giving up poor values? (But then you dismiss culture, don't you?) Let's see, far more blacks and Latinos are poor than whites. Why is this? Blacks and Latinos less likely to freely create their own destiny? And what about women? They do the same job for less pay. Why should this be in the free society you suppose where people control their own destiny? Look at the argument you have made over the past several days. It holds that there are no structures marginalizing people, or at least that such structures are not very powerful. It logically follows that the reason why half of all black children are poor is because of individual failure. Blacks and Latinos have suffered because of something they have done to themselves. Is that it? And if only the pinkos and commies would quit telling minorities, women, children, and all these other whiney groups that they are victims then maybe they could get off the bottom of society and do something with their lives. This is the outcome of your argument. You are living in a false world, Matt. I have to ask: is it your intention to become a sociologist? Or did you just come on this channel on marching orders from Rush, Jesse, and Newt to hassle people who are serious about understanding social reality? [Deleting trash.] > I am a bigot because I disagree with your interpretation of the world? You are a bigot because of the views you hold. Wear the badge of political incorrectness, Matt, if it makes you feel proud of your prejudice. But don't seriously try to intellectualize your right wing ideology. You can't weasel in the clear light of day. What you believe and where you stand is obvious. I am merely pointing it out. That you apparently don't like it, and try to rationalize it, might be a signal to you that - rather than attacking me - you ought to check yourself. Why do I feel like such advice will go unheeded? Andy From ziggy@princeton.edu Tue Mar 24 12:36:58 1998 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.88]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id MAA23920 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:36:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDENT-NOT-QUERIED@ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (port 1710 [128.112.129.131]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU with ESMTP id <541208-28819>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:56 -0500 Received: from flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (ziggy@flagstaff.Princeton.EDU [128.112.131.154]) by ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13367 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ziggy@localhost) by flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08021 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: flagstaff.Princeton.EDU: ziggy owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:50 -0500 (EST) From: Ziggy Rivkin-Fish To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As far as I know, this is an unmoderated list. That does not mean "anything goes". It means that participants are supposed to moderate themselves, to voice their views freely in a RESPECTFUL manner. Labeling each other (essentialist, naive, bigot, positivist, reactionary, sexist etc.) seems to me impoverishing. This is exactly policing the borders of legitimate discourse. I'd propose an exchange which limits itself to the particular ideas presented (rather than which powers, groups, or secret societies that the views are supposed to exemplify). If this can't be a forum for a respectful exhange of ideas and views, I for one am out of here. May I also suggest that we as sociologists utilize some of our sociological resources when discussing whether feminist theories are or are not marginalized? Rather than merely relying on rhetorical and political statements -- and I don't think that they are illegitimate, only that they should be advanced within the context of what's going on in the world, and not what we might imagine to go on in the world without evidence -- we might introduce some of the following issues/discussions: 1) what might be the (multiple!) criteria for marginalization. What does it mean to say that something is marginalized. Answering this requires explicitly stating subject-position (marginalized in what sense [institutionally, in terms of jobs, legitimavy, visibility etc]?, and from whose perpsective?) 2) Using such different criteria, what are the experiences in different sociology de[artments around the world (there's got to be enormous variation). 3) What forms of feminist theory are deemed more or less legitimate in sociology departments today (empirical, theoretical, postmodern, postivist, with clear examples of actual social "scientists" so we don't just throw labels around). 4) Separate the issues of representation of women in sociology from that of feminist scholarship (there is no reason to pigeon-hole anybody here). And separate the issue of feminisms and women from that of "people-of-color". Although the issues might be connected there are important analytical distinctions (the study of race is a staple of sociology, and the market for Black sociologists is very different from that of women. And in terms of unmarked categories, I don't even know how well "Latino" sociologists are doing). Ziggy =++++++++++++++++++++++= ^ Ziggy Rivkin-Fish ^ ^ Dept of Sociology ^ ^ 2-N-1 Green Hall ^ ^ Princeton University ^ ^ Princeton, NJ 08544 ^ =++++++++++++++++++++++= From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Tue Mar 24 14:11:42 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.5.27]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA28569 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:11:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA03890 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:11:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:11:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199803242111.QAA03890@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Everyone who criticizes Marxist rhetoric gets labeled with the right-wing bugaboo, you just can't accept that not all liberals buy into this silly oppression mindet. I don't have to prove my political affliation, but you are wrong in assuming that I am this right-wing Rush Limbaugh type that you are writing about. Let me quote one of your favorites - Camille Paglia: What I don't like right now is that there's a kind of knee-jerk, intimidating way of calling someone "neoconservative" if they happen critiize the liberal academic establishment - "Right, your a neo-con". Now, when people call me a neocon, what kind of idiots are they? I'm someone one the record as being pro-pornography...pro-prostitution, pro-legalization of drugs, pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality... (from _Sex, Art and American Culture_ p. 252) The left will not accept any critique from within itself without resorting to this standard response. Jean Jacque Rousseau was the founder of what I call "weepy liberalism" that wants to try to engineer the perfect society. He believed that man was essentually good - man is born pure and is corrupted by an evil society. Much of modern utopian thinking buys into the belief that they can fix the social structure so that man can finally live in peace and harmony. Karl Marx calls this state "species-being" in which man can pursue all his desires without being tied to alienating machines of production. Utopia thinking includes such people as Herbert Marcuse and even the "unabomber" with the hatred of technology. The problem with this thinking is that man is not born totally pure, society is not this evil force that inhibits the natural "goodness" of man, but it is what makes us civilized. Society controls the animal that is man, and it is through society and social structure that we can live in peace. This does not mean that we are powerless to affect social change, but that it is impossible to engineer the perfect "safe" society. As much as it is anathema to Marxists, there is not such thing as a society that is classless. All the attempts to establish this perfect society has been a total failure. The Soviet Union no longer exists, communism as a political system does not work - the Chinese have been moving to a market system and we can see the effect that socialism has had on the people of Cuba. Modern day feminists are the epitome of the weepy liberal - they want to create the world that is the perfect gender-neutral utopia that would be totally safe from any and all dangers. One of these "engineering" schemes lies in the issue of sexual harassment. We all know that there are 2 types of harassment, the "quid pro quo" and the "hostile workplace". The first of these we would agree is sexual blackmail and should be illegal in every instance (whenever an employer demands sexual favors in order to succeed in the company). The other case, is very ambigious. Hostile workplace sexual lawsuits have completely scarred many people in the workplace and there is the constant fear that "offending" someone might be considered hostile workplace. The recent incident in Wisconsin with the Miller brewing company points out the absurdity of some of these "hostile workplace" laws. In this case an executive was fired because he brought up a joke he heard on the Seinfield show. He sued the company and received a large settlement. There is a huge difference between working for equality of oppurtunity and equal treatment and creating the "safe" world in which you never have to worry about being offended. My brief response to Andy: >Where do I say, or where it is even implied that there is a conspiracy? >One more reactionary retort from you Matt, this is. Now because I talk >about the reality and force of culture and ideology I am a "conspiracy >theorist." Your rhetoric is National Empowerment Television crap. You said that because of this cultural-ideological effect of whiteness and maleness, that those who side with the feminists will be marginalized. To me, that sounds like there is a conspiracy on the part of white males to silence those who agree with you. Here you go with this demonization of though by saying I aligned with the right wing, which is complete bunk. I believe in absolute free speech - which included pornography and every other material which people don't like. I was born in a working class family and I know what it is like to work in factories to pay for college. Most of the Marxists I know live out in the suburbs and drive fancy cars and have no idea what working class life is like. Do you know many "Limbaugh" types who are pro-homosexual rights and are pro-choice? I am not afraid of the "liberal" label, and I refuse to use the euphemism of "progressive" that many liberals believe is more acceptable. >> I love it when Marxists blame the "social structure" for the failure of >> thier own ideas. > >Which of their ideas have failed? I always puzzle over this talk about how >Marxists are wrong about everything. People are often wrong about >particular points without the theory suffering. But Marxist forecasting >and explanation is without peer. The failure of historical materialism to create world socialism for one, was Marx correct when he said that what the bourgeosie really produce are thier own gravediggers? Maybe is it just been very delayed and we are really living in the period of "late capitalism". To deny that Marx was wrong on his complete economic theory which he exposed in Volume I and II of Capital is to deny reality. His "labor theory of value" (the idea that the cost of a commodity is equal to the cost of the labor needed to produce it) is also completely wrong. Many passages of Capital are very moving, when he writes about the condition of seamstresses and bakers, he evokes the emotion of the reality of there life. That aspect of Marx's work is admirable, pointing out the conditions that people were forced to work, but to say that he was correct in his vision of the future is not proved by history. >Marxists correctly predict that the >contradictions inherent in the workings of capitalism lead to a >progressive concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands. What is >more, concentration of wealth occurs for precisely the reasons they specify This is a great example of historical revisionism, Karl Marx thought that communism would first spread to the most advanced capitalist countries first, ie the USA and England. He believed that this would snowball and that the end product of historical materialism would be world communism. Has communism proved to be the world economic structure that it was predicted to be? Why has all the communist countries either failed or are failing? >I hear the reactionaries making this claim that Marxist ideas don't work. >But the facts are contrary to the ideological pronouncements. Marxist >ideas do work. They are disfavored for precisely this reason. Marxist >ideas are a threat to Matt and his ilk who - when convenient - prefer to >deny the reality of culture and ideology, reducing it to "conspiracy >theory." Had I made the structural argument I would no doubt have been >criticized for leaving out culture and ideas. This is the game the right >wing plays. Catch-22. That critical standpoints are open to revision and >are in fact revised obviates Matt's portrait of an unyielding self-sealing >position. But I don't think Matt is concerned with the facts. I have never dened the influence of culture and ideology, I have explained the utopian streak of trying to fix everything with society in order to produce this classless heaven that Marx and others dream about. It is the self-reinforcing ideology of Marxism itself which is resistant to criticism. >> My favorite is when they blame the media as being a tool of the >> ruling elite > >The mass media *is* a weapon of the ruling elite. Mass media are owned and >controlled by giant corporations. You are blowing off empirical reality, >Matt. The empty ideas you profess here are bad enough, but nothing is more >bankrupt than ideas that deny facts. Didn't you appeal to C. Wright Mills >at the top of you post when you confused developed conceptual language >with pretension? What did Mills have to say about the ruling elite? Mills was an example himself of the grand theory he criticized, I do not endorce most of his ideas. The media is no longer concentrated in a small segment of channels of information. Is it fair to say that the internet is also owned by these "giant corporations" you rally against? The media is so diversified, and information is constantly coming in. What I was saying is that the media are not used as a propaganda tool to placate the population from this massive revolt against capitalism. >You are living in a false world, Matt. I have to ask: is it your intention >to become a sociologist? Or did you just come on this channel on marching >orders from Rush, Jesse, and Newt to hassle people who are serious about >understanding social reality? Same response to criticism, blame a political agenda. Marxist belief draws more people to the right wing because they alienate pragmatic solutions to problems. Liberals who criticize Marxists constantly get tarnised as these raging right-wing wachos. >You are a bigot because of the views you hold. Since when did a criticism of weepy liberalism equate to bigotry, you should be more careful with your political hyperbole. I am called a bigot because I mention the inherient fallacy of Marxism. Matt From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Tue Mar 24 15:00:51 1998 Received: from mailserv.waikato.ac.nz (mailserv.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.66.61]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id PAA03999 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:00:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from student5 (student5.socio.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.161.74]) by mailserv.waikato.ac.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA37894 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:01:26 +1200 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:01:26 +1200 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19980325100114.278feb94@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> X-Sender: maxine@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Hi Andy Have been enjoying this discussion immensely (though not the mutual slagging off), but need some expansion on a particular concept. What is "the organic composition of capital"? It's a term I haven't noticed before, but, from the context, it is clearly significant. Cheers, Maxine > From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Mar 25 01:07:07 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id BAA00549 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:07:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id DAA13650; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:06:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:06:59 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980325100114.278feb94@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Maxine, The organic composition of capital refers to the constant-variable capital ratio. Constant capital are those fixed assets of the capitalists (these don't contribute to the production of surplus value). Constant capital includes dead labor. Variable capital is labor power, which produces surplus value. Capitalists increase constant capital inputs to reduce labor time and size by increasing labor productivity (relative production of surplus value). This increases the level of exploitation per worker retained by the capitalist for production, and increases the size of the surplus labor pool. Put otherwise, capitalist can produce more value with less labor by employing labor saving capital and thus increase the size of the structurally un/underemployed strata. The impact of this is devastating. And the problem is intractable; the surplus labor pool is a permanent and necessary feature of capitalism. I should add that increasing the relative production of surplus value is only one way of increasing exploitation of workers, and only one of the way that labor exploitation leads to increases in surplus labor pool. Does that get it? Andy On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Maxine Campbell wrote: > Hi Andy > > Have been enjoying this discussion immensely (though not the mutual > slagging off), but need some expansion on a particular concept. What is > "the organic composition of capital"? It's a term I haven't noticed > before, but, from the context, it is clearly significant. > > Cheers, Maxine > From maxine@waikato.ac.nz Wed Mar 25 14:13:22 1998 Received: from mailserv.waikato.ac.nz (mailserv.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.66.61]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA14581 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:13:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from student5 (student5.socio.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.161.74]) by mailserv.waikato.ac.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA82760 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:14:01 +1200 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:14:01 +1200 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19980326091344.27173e44@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> X-Sender: maxine@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Maxine Campbell Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Thanks Andy Certainly I'm familiar with the process you describe, but was thrown by the word "organic". Obviously it is not meant to be taken in the "green" sense! and Hi Matt I understand what you're saying, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! I don't know ANYONE who has been right 100% of the time, least of all those who are brave enough to make predictions. Sure Marx didn't do too well in the prophecy department, but there is much of value in his work that we would be unwise to dismiss simply because he got some things wrong. Cheers, Maxine > Maxine Campbell email: maxine@waikato.ac.nz Sociology Department Phone: 0064-7-8562889, ex 8274 University of Waikato Home: 0064-7-8547103 Hamilton Fax: 0064-7-8562158 New Zealand From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Mar 25 14:42:27 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA16178 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:42:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id QAA29610; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:42:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:42:18 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980326091344.27173e44@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maxine, Marx's forecasting was uncanny. Reading the Communist Manifesto is like reading an account of the past 150 years... only it was written 150 years ago. We are turning to Marx because his theory of social formation is the only theory that achieves the high level of explanatory power and predictive validity that is demanded by scientific materialism; and because his theory is explaining the world we live in. I don't know about prophecy - I am not a theologian - but I have some understanding of scientific adequacy, and I have yet to find a social scientific model as sound as historical materialism. Whether it is explaining some social component, such as crime and punishment, or larger macro processes, such as capitalist globalization, historical material works. This claim that Marx's forecasting was less than sufficient, not to mention short of phenomenal, is, in my view, mainstreamed Cold War rhetoric with no basis in fact. We need to stop relying on political-institutional memory when we engage in these discussions and proceed on empirical-theoretical grounds. As for the use of the term "organic," *organic* in the scientific materialist sense denotes any complex unity, of an interdependency of parts, and an intrinsic character of the the whole. Organic composition of capital refers to the natural process of capital accumulation. This is one of those pesky predictions Marx made that he was right about: the tendency for organic composition of capital to increase and intensify. In any case, while I would agree that just because people are wrong doesn't mean they are not important or relevant, I reject your premise that Marx is an example of this sort of case. He wasn't. He wasn't infallible, of course. But the whole Marxist enterprise has been far more faithful to empirical reality than any other perspective. So much so that a statement like "he was a poor prophet," even accepting the metaphor, is very wrong. Andy From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Wed Mar 25 16:23:32 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.49.12]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id QAA23080 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:23:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA07626 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:23:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:23:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199803252323.SAA07626@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Hi Maxine, Thanks you for your post, the importance of Karl Marx to the discipline of sociology is not to be denied, but the theoretical orientation that is his legacy is fair game for discussion. My problem is with every "theory" that is completely self-contained and circular. Freudian psychoanalysis is an example from psychology - any "theory" that tries to explain everything ends up explaining nothing. If a person goes to a psychoanalyst and says "I am having problems with my boss", the typical response if "you have not resolved the oedipal stage". When the patient questions this diagnosis and asks why that is so, the response is "because you are having problems with your boss". The circularity of psychoanalysis, as well as other "grand" theories (as C. Wright Mills described functionalism as a grand theory), make them open to question. Marxism as a theortical standpoint is filled with this kind of mass insularity and circularity. Any criticism quickly gets set aside as either "ideology" or as right wing propaganda. The ideology argument is that since the ruling ideas are the ideas of the ruling class, that no matter what is said, it is "bourgeoisie inspired" and not an to be taken as genuine. The other method is quicker and easier, just blame it as a political attack from the extreme right. Both deflecting strategies serve the purpose of maintaining the belief system without ever having to question the tenets of the theory. Karl Marx legacy is as the founder of what is now called "humanist sociology", the belief that sociology is does not have to remain a value-free neutral, objectivist discipline, but can be used to "give voice" to those who are often outside of the mainstream. An entire field of ethnographic research has been done which try to describe the reality of marginalized populations. Marx himself writes with great emotion and empathy about the reality of workers lives. However, the theoretical element of Marxism has failed as a viable method of prediction. Is it no so much that he got some things wrong, but his entire historical predictions did not become reality. Historical materialism is the Hegelian inspired notion of the progression of mankind. As the forces of production change (due to technological innovation), the relations of production also change (master/slave to landowner/serf to bourgeiosie/ proletariat). With capitalism there is a dual level of competition, between the bourgeoisie themselves and between workers for the scarcity of jobs. Bourgeiosie competition means that costs will have to be cut in order to maintain high profitability, this is done through more technical innovations and by paying workers the bare minimum to survive. Competition between the workers themselves means that workers will be willing to work for less and less until the point of subsistence is crossed. Workers will eventually revolt against this system and overturn the bourgeoisie when they fall behind the subsistence level. This revolt will occur in the most advanced of the capitalist countries when the mass of the proletariat is the most densely concentrated. The end result of historical materialism is communism, where capitalism has been replaced and the state takes control of the means of production therefore eliminating the competition for resources. This scenario did not play out, because Marx economic theory was fundamentally flawed. The labor theory of value and his belief in the effect of competition did not occur. The cost of labor is influenced by many separate factors, productivity being the most important. There is now a generation of theorists who try to reconcile why Marx was wrong and do intergrate Marx with the modern world, Habermas and members of the Frankfort school being the most prominent. Matt Hoover From tombrown@jhu.edu Wed Mar 25 16:36:26 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA24272 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:36:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IV3D9222ECB4T0MF@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:34:14 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA00874 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:36:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:36:04 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Feminist Theory To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803252336.SAA00874@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >The organic composition of capital refers to the constant-variable capital >ratio. Constant capital are those fixed assets of the capitalists (these >don't contribute to the production of surplus value). Constant capital >includes dead labor. Variable capital is labor power, which produces >surplus value. Capitalists increase constant capital inputs to reduce >labor time and size by increasing labor productivity (relative production >of surplus value). This increases the level of exploitation per worker >retained by the capitalist for production, and increases the size of the >surplus labor pool. Put otherwise, capitalist can produce more value with >less labor by employing labor saving capital and thus increase the size of >the structurally un/underemployed strata. Also note that the labor theory of value was superseded in the marginalist revolution in economics over a century ago. Marx is worth reading for his sociology. His economics have been obsolete for a long time now. From tombrown@jhu.edu Wed Mar 25 16:43:07 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA25514 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:43:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IV3DCVBPPKB4T0MF@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:40:59 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id SAA23667 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:28:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:28:05 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: Feminist Theory To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803252328.SAA23667@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >May I also suggest that we as sociologists utilize some of our >sociological resources when discussing whether feminist theories are or >are not marginalized? Rather than merely relying on rhetorical and >political statements -- and I don't think that they are illegitimate, only >that they should be advanced within the context of what's going on in the >world, and not what we might imagine to go on in the world without >evidence -- we might introduce some of the following issues/discussions: >1) what might be the (multiple!) criteria for marginalization. What does >it mean to say that something is marginalized. Answering this requires >explicitly stating subject-position (marginalized in what sense >[institutionally, in terms of jobs, legitimavy, visibility etc]?, and from >whose perpsective?) >2) Using such different criteria, what are the experiences in different >sociology de[artments around the world (there's got to be enormous >variation). >4) Separate the issues of representation of women in sociology from that >of feminist scholarship (there is no reason to pigeon-hole anybody here). >And separate the issue of feminisms and women from that of >"people-of-color". Although the issues might be connected there are >important analytical distinctions (the study of race is a staple of >sociology, and the market for Black sociologists is very different from >that of women. And in terms of unmarked categories, I don't even know >how well "Latino" sociologists are doing). You should have been on this list a year or two ago, when we had basically this same debate about marginalized populations within the discipline. The problem in communicating comes from differing epistemologies. One faction wants to see evidence, interpreted in some generalizable, consistent manner. The other faction is content to claim widespread disenfranchisement on the basis of anecdotal accounts that may or may not reflect actual discrimination. I am one who would love to see actual data interpreted in a logical, systematic fashion, which apparently makes me a patriarchalwhitemalebigot. It was frustrating to be a minority, and to be sympathetic to claims of discrimination, and yet be taken to task for wanting to view the problem in as objective a framework as possible. I don't think the debate you and I seek is possible in this setting, given the diversity of epistemologies in play. From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Mar 25 17:24:02 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA29338 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:24:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id TAA02156; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:23:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:23:58 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <199803252323.SAA07626@csu-e.csuohio.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Matthew Hoover wrote: > The circularity of psychoanalysis, as well as other "grand" theories > (as C. Wright Mills described functionalism as a grand theory), make > them open to question. If Matt is going to invoke C. Wright Mill's critique of grand theory (and this is the second time he has done so), and leave the impression that Mills dealt with Marx in the same manner he dealt with Talcott Parsons, then he should be honest and present what Mills actually said about Marx. People forget that Mills was moving ever closer to Marxism, and his own brand of Marxism, which Mills labeled "plain Marxism," has profoundly impacted a generation of sociologists who have neglected Mills' tribute to Marx, his work *The Marxists*, never knowing that their libertarian- critical-pragmatism was a translation of the Old Man's historical materialism. Well, let's resurrect the Texan's philosophy from the memory hole, shall we? C. Wright Mills wrote this in his last work: The intellectual value of classic marxism, and of marxism more generally, is not merely historical. It has direct intellectual relevance today. Marx's work contains comprehensive statements about the elements and the structure of society to which attention must be paid - entirely apart from politics or ideology.... We cannot understand the history of any nation of consequence without considering Marx's ideas.... To come to grips with marxism, whether that of a young Marx or of yesterday's Moscow slogan, forces us to confront: (1) every public issue of the modern world; (2) every great problem of social structures; (3) every moral trouble encountered by men of sensibility today. Moreover, when we try to observe and to think within the marxist point of view, we are bound to see these issues, problems and troubles as inherently connected. We are forced to adopt an over-all view of the world, and of ourselves in relation to it. [...] The ideas of Marx...are...an unofficial part of the world of any honest scholarship. It is the intellectual scope and brilliance of its theoretical content, as well as the political force of its ideological message, that has indeed made of Marx's ideas a specter that at once haunts and attracts the non-marxist world. The history of social thought since the mid-nineteenth century cannot be understood without understanding the ideas of Marx. Without question Marx belongs to the classic tradition in sociological thinking; in fact, it is difficult to name any other one thinker who within that tradition is as influential and as pivotal as he. He contributed the very categories dealt with by virtually all significant social thinkers of our immediate past. As is frequently remarked and often forgotten, the development of social inquiry and of political philosophy over the last century has in many ways been a more or less continuous dialogue with Marx. Karl Marx was *the* thinker of the nineteenth century. Within the classic tradition of sociology, he provides us with the most basic single framework for political and cultural reflection. Marx conceived of a truly comprehensive social science; indeed, his work attempts to *be* "social science" all by itself. No social phenomenon is exempt from the theoretical reach of the model he constructed, and many things not usually considered objects he constructed, and many things not usually considered objects of social science, even today, are embraced by his conceptions and theories. [...] Marx is not inhibited by the boundary lines of academic disciplines or specialties. In his work, what are now called political science, social psychology, economics, sociology and anthropology are all used. They are used in such a way as to form a master view of (1) the structure of a society in all its realms; (2) mechanics of the history of that society, and (3) the roles of individual in all their psychological nuances. Mills goes on to praise Marx's organic, structural, and historical perspective. And, yes, he goes on to critique Marx in the strongest terms, often incorrectly, sometimes right on target. The point is that what Matt Hoover criticizes Marx for - his comprehensiveness - is precisely what C. Wright Mills praises Marx for. Matt doesn't understand the difference between building a comprehensive theory and a tautology. Evolution is a comprehensive framework. Tautological? The general theory of relativity is comprehensive. Tautological? Of course not. Social science is not forbidden uniquely among sciences to have a comprehensive framework. The charge of tautology here is irrelevant. Additionally, what must be exposed here is the false impression Matt either, innocently or otherwise, leaves by juxtaposing Mills critique of Parsons in a discussion of Marx's ideas. Since Matt has read Mills' Sociological Imagination (or at least somebody told him about the critique of Parsons) he might also be aware that of the three sorts of social theory, it is the tradition of Marx that Mills noted as social science proper. Matt is hoisted on his on petard. Andy From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Mar 25 17:30:28 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id RAA29806 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:30:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id TAA03097; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:30:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:30:24 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <199803252336.SAA00874@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Thomas F Brown wrote: > Also note that the labor theory of value was superseded in the marginalist > revolution in economics over a century ago. Marx is worth reading for his > sociology. His economics have been obsolete for a long time now. When was the sociohistorical and materialist approach to political economy uprooted by the elite practice of subjectivist ideology? You mean the predominance of marginalist and neoclassical economics in business departments suppressing scientific materialism? Or do you mean in the realm of hard scientific inquiry? Because if you mean in the latter sense - which clearly you do - then you are wrong. That subjectivist and ideological constructions like marginalist economics can hold sway in the academy validates Marx's dictum: "The ideas of the ruling class are in every age the ruling ideas." Gramsci called it ideological hegemony. Andy From rb6553a@american.edu Wed Mar 25 17:54:42 1998 Received: from notes-gw.american.edu (notes-gw.american.edu [147.9.238.14]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id RAA00796 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:54:39 -0700 (MST) From: rb6553a@american.edu Received: by notes-gw.american.edu(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 852565D3.000508E0 ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:54:59 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AMERICANU To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: <852565D3.000407A5.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:55:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Matthew Hoover: Your post is unnecessarily long and your reference to feminists as "weepy" is not exactly inspired sociological discourse. I will not respond to your post at length, but I will say that your points about sexual harassment being unnecessarily ambiguous are really off the mark. As a lawyer, I can assure you that the legal system is rife with ambiguities (as is sociology and every other human endeavor). Calling something difficult to define does not take it out of the realm of legitimate regulation. Examples of this abound, from the concept of "obscenity" (which definition relies upon the jury's application of "community standards," among other criteria) to "unfair competition" (a phrase contained in the Sherman antitrust act). In this country, it has always been the job of legislatures to draft laws with general applicability, and for the courts to interpret them. This includes "fleshing out" such concepts as "sexual harassment." I applaud the prior post (I forget now who it was) which encouraged professional sociological discourse rather than name-calling. Robert A. Brooks Doctoral Student The American University From m.hoover@csu-e.csuohio.edu Wed Mar 25 18:17:04 1998 Received: from csu-e.csuohio.edu (csu-e.csuohio.edu [137.148.5.27]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA01393 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:17:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from Dept. of Sociol.csuohio.edu. (artsfac206-96.dhcp.csuohio.edu [137.148.206.96]) by csu-e.csuohio.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA12639 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:16:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:16:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199803260116.UAA12639@csu-e.csuohio.edu> X-Sender: m.hoover@popmail.csuohio.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Matthew Hoover Subject: Re: Feminist Theory Andy wrote: >If Matt is going to invoke C. Wright Mill's critique of grand theory (and >this is the second time he has done so), and leave the impression that >Mills dealt with Marx in the same manner he dealt with Talcott Parsons, >then he should be honest and present what Mills actually said about Marx. I don't think that I ever said that Mills used the concept of grand theory to explain Marxism, Mills himself was a neoMarxist and believed many of the things I am criticizing. In fact, in a earlier post I mentioned that: "Mills was an example himself of the grand theory he criticized, I do not endorse most of his ideas." I am taking the concept of grand theory that he used in describing Parsons, and am applying it to the "grand" theory of Marxism. The impression was never given that Mills applied this to Marxism himself, I even pointed out that it was in response to *functionalism*. In regards to the comprehensive theory/ tautology distinction, Marxism's extreme "comprehensiveness", makes it tautological because there is no way to falsify and test it's claims. It is a self-generating set of propositions that give an explantion for every and all possibilties. The process of objectification and testing the null hypothesis becomes impossible with this type of "theory". Matt From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 25 19:11:37 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id TAA06983 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:11:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4229; Wed, 25 Mar 98 21:11:43 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 4256; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:11:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 20:48:42 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: The purpose of Grand Theory -- Marx/Mills To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980325.211118.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT First off, given that most of the posts dealing with feminist theory no longer deal with feminist theory, folks should change the subject when not discussing feminist theory -- good netetiquette. Second, Mills critiqued abstract empiricism, not grand theory either of the Parsonian or Marxian variety. All sociological theory -- whether it takes a functionalist or Marxian twist deals with the same problematic -- how are individual action and individual desires reconciled with either social structure or what are defined to be social structural imperatives (note that certain fashionable discourses in Sociology such as ratcho and economic soc. as well as certain variants of interactionism are excluded from this definition). The reason for this is, if one tilts too much to the side of individual action or to the side of social structure one winds up with a sort of determinism which justifies the status quo (in the late 19th/early 20th century, it was Social Darwinism of either the individualistic or structuralist variety). Mills was as committed to this mission as Parsons was. Where the main difference between Mills and Parsons rested was one could take grand theory seriously to the extent that you can begin assuming and reifying whatever individual desires or structural prerequisites are operative in society or a given social context (which is what Pop Psychoanalysis did). That was why, as Gouldner stressed in the Coming Crisis of Western Soc. (ironically not any theory prof's reading list at UCONN), if Sociologists are to be taken seriously they need to be constantly reflexive, constantly in contact with the folks who pay our salaries, and take them and their discourses seriously. "There are two types of Sociologists: Those who live for Sociology, and those who live off of Sociology" -- Alvin Gouldner, For Sociology. From brekhus@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Mar 25 19:52:00 1998 Received: from erebus.rutgers.edu (erebus.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.132]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id TAA08387 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:51:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 1369 invoked by alias); 26 Mar 1998 02:51:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 1360 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1998 02:51:56 -0000 Received: from marcuse.rutgers.edu (HELO marcuse) (128.6.145.64) by erebus.rutgers.edu with SMTP; 26 Mar 1998 02:51:56 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980325185159.012e5e90@email.rci.rutgers.edu> X-Sender: brekhus@email.rci.rutgers.edu Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:51:59 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: wayne brekhus Subject: Marx on Methods, Manners, and Epistemologies In-Reply-To: <199803252328.SAA23667@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to suggest a 1997 article by Marx that seems relevant to both Ziggy's call for respectful discussion and Ziggy's and Thomas's suggestions that we apply our sociological tools even when we are examining issues in our own discipline. The problem of intense disputes over opposing epistemologies on this graduate list mirrors a larger problem within U.S. sociology in general. Gary Marx has some provocative suggestions for what sociology/sociologists should aspire to that are very relevant to this problem. The article entitled "Of Methods and Manners for Aspiring Sociologists: 37 Moral Imperitaves" is in the American Sociologist, Spring, 1997. I think it should be required reading for aspiring sociologists. Anyone who has read it care to comment? No offense to the other Marx, btw :). Wayne Brekhus Rutgers "Tell it like it is. Speak truth to power and to others...empirical truth in the long run will serve social change better than will ideology"--Gary Marx, 1997 From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Wed Mar 25 19:53:03 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA08447 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:53:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id VAA26214; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:52:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:52:59 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: The purpose of Grand Theory -- Marx/Mills In-Reply-To: <980325.211118.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Alan Davidson wrote: > Second, Mills critiqued abstract empiricism, not grand theory either of > the Parsonian or Marxian variety. This is incorrect. In chapter three of The Sociological Imagination, Mills criticizes "Grand Theory" (it is the chapter heading). In this chapter he specifically attacks the work of Talcott Parsons. And he does so in a devastating, mocking fashion. Mills wrote of Parsons' The Social System: "Parsons has not been able to get down to the work of social science because he is possessed by the idea that the one model of social order he has constructed is some kind of universal model; because, in fact, he has fetishized his Concepts." Mills writes that the "withdrawal into systematic work on conceptions should be only a formal moment within the work of social science." Mills notes another theorist who withdrew into formal conceptualization: Weber. But Mills points out that Weber's work was soon put to the work of history, which Mills holds as an essential component to social science. The problem with Parsons is that he never gets to the point where the model is put into action. Structural functionalism is much like neoclassical economics in this way; it achieves near paradigmatic status without explaining anything. Like neoclassical economics today, structural functionalism served an ideological function (Mills notes this in a footnote to the chapter). Mills stresses that the "amnesia of the American scholar has always to be recognized. In grand theory we now confront another formalist withdrawal, and again, what is properly only a pause seems to have become permanent. As they say in Spain, 'many can shuffle cards who can't play.'" To correct the misreadings, Mills identifies three tendencies. The first tendency is a theory of history. The second is a systematic theory of "the nature of man and society." This is "grand theory," the Parsons project and Mills clearly takes issue with it. The third tendency is "abstracted empiricism," which Mills also takes issue with. The first tendency, the tradition of Marx and Weber, is sociology proper in Mills' view (as I already argued). Andy From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Wed Mar 25 20:03:33 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id UAA09041 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:03:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4529; Wed, 25 Mar 98 22:03:39 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 4676; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:03:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 21:59:25 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: grand theory To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980325.220314.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Even though he titled a chapter Grand Theory, what he meant was to criticize the loss of reflexivity which can occur if one engages in grand theory to the exclusion of all else -- if you don't have grand theory, you don't have social structure and culture, and if you don't have these you don't have Sociology (but something else) and you don't have anything to build a critical Sociology from -- one reason why the Frankfurt School critiques were never completely replaced by Pomo was for this reason. From tr@tryoung.com Thu Mar 26 05:02:29 1998 Received: from mail.sensible-net.com ([208.18.224.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA21110 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 05:02:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.21]) by mail.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA164 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:04:59 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980326065910.008287a0@tryoung.com> X-Sender: tr@tryoung.com Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:59:10 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Continuing Validities of Marxist Theory In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19980326091344.27173e44@mailserv.waikato.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by csf.Colorado.EDU id FAA21111 >Maxine Campbell email: maxine@waikato.ac.nz >Sociology Department Phone: 0064-7-8562889, ex 8274 >University of Waikato Home: 0064-7-8547103 >Hamilton Fax: 0064-7-8562158 >New Zealand Dear Maxine: I'd like to add a footnote to your earlier post in which you note that some of Marxian theory continues to be helpful to the knowledge process...I quite agree and have worked out a set of validities for my lectures on Marxian theory...while the set below reflect a small part of my larger evaluation of Marx and the critique of capital, still they are important to any effort to understand the dynamics of a wide variety of social problems... Please note that in giving Marx credit for some things, I am not minimizing other sources of the same social problems...patriarchy and sexism continues to wear away the souls of women and men; ethnic violence and racism continue to hamper the human project; there is much in psychology and physiology which interacts in ways not fully understood to indict the human spirit and subvert the human soul. So, for what they are worth in changing configurations, here are my own appreciations of some parts of Marxian social theory.   ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CONTINUING VALIDITIES of Marxian Social Theory: With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the totalistic forms of Socialist ownership instituted in it and in many of its neighbors, there has been much in the way of celebration of the victory of capitalism over communism; the victory of modernization theory over Marxian theory. These enthusiasms are greatly misplaced. As long as capitalism exists, Marxian theory continues to be helpful to both theory and practice of a humanist, transforming practice of sociology and social science itself. Below are some of the major theses which embody a marxist critique of capitalism today. These points of critique come from my lectures on social class, criminology, social problems and Marxian Social theory at a wide variety of universities over the past 30 years. To the extent that these theses are valid, to that extent must one consider that current expressions of the capitalist philosophy and practice of work are inimical to the long range interests of workers, consumers, women, minorities, children and those in third world countries whose labor power today bears the main burdens mentioned above. 1. Capitalism tends to disemploy people and thus create a "surplus" population. Of the five great economc systems in history, capitalism is the only mode of production to do so. Thus people are separated from the means of production of themselves as species (human) being and the creation of human culture. 2. Capitalism tends to degrade the work process. Work is divided and subdivided in order to increase control over the work process, to reduce the costs of labor power, and to automate as many tasks as possible. 3. Capitalism requires layer after layer of unproductive employees in order to reproduce itself: Managers to deal with reluctant and uninspired workers, public relations to deal with a surly public, advertizing firms to generate false needs, lawyers to help evade the law, salespersons to push commodities and millions of security guards to watch workers, customers, and competitors. 4. Capitalism tends to destroy moral relations between workers by forcing them to compete with each other, with other companies, and with workers in other countries. 5. Morality is threatened when capitalism trains its employees to prey on the consumer by offering commissions, prizes, bonuses, vacations, medals, and promotions for sales. 6. Capitalism tends to destroy morality by replacing the self system as the central mediator of behavior with external controls: rules, orders, commands, managers, behavioral modification, drugs, therapy, and police. The self system becomes archaic as the locus of social action. 7. Capitalism destroys morality in its bureaucracies by requiring a lower level worker enact the orders of a middle echelon worker to embody the policy set by the top level officer. The dirty work of bureaucracy is always two or three levels removed from its victims. 8. Capitalism subverts morality when it uses the sacred days to create possessive individualism. Christmas and other holy days become vehicles for corporate ads. 9. Capitalism tends to destroy all social relations. Its interest is in production, not workers; in consumption, not consumers. It will discard workers, customers, and communities alike if profits are higher elsewhere. 10. Capitalism tends to destroy morality by pushing consumerism as the central test of the good life rather than praxis, cooperation, conservation, or future generations. 11. Capitalism is an irrational system of production in that its goals are growth, profit and control of its environment (workers, consumers, suppliers, competitors and governments) rather than the needs of individuals, communities or the environment. 12. Capitalism is irrational in that it tends to over-concentrate in high profit lines of production and neglect low profit but essential goods and services of the community and nation. 13. Capitalism is irrational in that its concern with growth wastes raw materials, uses energy resources needlessly, and creates mountains and canyons of trash. 14. In the effort to avoid costs, capitalism pollutes the air, the water, and the soil. Demand for profits requires that the manager avoid the responsibility and costs of cleaning up after production. 15. Capitalism despoils the land; scarring it with strip mines, patching it with asphalt, saturating it with chemicals, and covering it with tract housing. 16. Capitalism gets its highest profits from the poorest nations in the world. 17. Capitalism exports food from the hungriest nations in the world and imports it to the fattest. 18. Capitalism subverts the political process in the third world countries in order to maintain the flow of profits, raw materials, and the freedom to control markets in those countries. 19. Capitalism encourages the migration of skilled professional trained at the expense of workers in the third world but erects an iron fence to prevent the migration of those who would follow the food, the wealth, and the profits exported from the Third World to the twenty rich capitalist countries. 20. The world capitalist system requires a false peace as well as huge military apparatus to control resistance and rebellion in the Third World. 21. Capitalism is inimical to democracy at home and abroad; buying it at home and repressing it abroad. Capitalism replaces the meaning of democracy from full participation at work and in other important life activities with the narrow act of voting for preselected candidates once every two or four years. 22. Capitalism creates poverty and works to transfer the costs of its poor to other economic systems: that of state welfare, that of the family, that of tribal societies, that of church and charity, or all too often, crime. 23. Capitalism fosters five kinds of crime: street crime as people are separated from the means of production and are socialized to false needs; corporate crime as profits decline or competition increases, organized crime as solidarity supplies become mere commodities produced for individual escape rather than sacred supplies used to celebrate cherished social relations. White collar crime increases as the middle classes come to realize the need for a portfolio for their senior years, as they come to realize the futility of serving the corporation, and as they come to face life crises and false needs beyond even their extensive resources. Political crime increases as capitalism tries to control workers and peasants in the Third World as well as dissent and the impetus for social justice at home. 24. Capitalism and the profit motive leads to dangerous food additives; unsafe toys, automobiles, drugs, and unsafe working conditions in factory, mine, and sports. 25. Capitalism dumps unsafe products in the Third World when they cannot be sold in advanced capitalist countries. 26. Capitalism crushes small business and drives the small farmer off the land. Wealth and the means of production come to be concentrated in fewer and fewer owners even as personal, consumer goods accumulate among the upper working class. 27. The capitalist state tends to grow and grow: to help small capitalists and farmers, to control the surplus population, to guard the interests of the multinational corporation over- seas, to police the excesses of amoral domestic corporations, and to provide a cheap-sided and mean-spirited welfare to the disemployed and the aged. 28. Capitalism will use or destroy any established social structure to secure its interests in profits, growth, and control: fascism, racism, sexism, patriotism or bigotry-- anything which will maintain legitimacy or help accumulate profits, weaken its foes or bolster its allies. 29. Capitalism has converted the university into the unpaid servant of the corporation while subverting its capacity to provide the authentic self knowledge for critique, change and renewal. 30. Capitalism buys or rents the means to produce meaning from the mass media in order to serve the information and political needs of private ownership for ideological hegemony, the realization of profit, the pre-selection of political candidates and for opposition to workers struggles at home or abroad. 31. Capitalism distorts the health and medical profession by: emphasizing therapeutic rather than preventive health care, by excluding the poor from adequate health care, by eliminating holistic therapies, by pushing drugs and high tech means of treatment, by limiting the role of the nurse to that of a menial, and by using mass production tactics in handling the poor, the aged and minorities who cannot yield high profits through more labor intensive therapies. 32. Capitalism creates masses of chronically ill and chronically anxious workers and women then pushes drugs, sports and religion as escape rather than as enlivening. 33. Capitalism must externalize its costs: to women, workers and to consumers if possible; if not, to the Third World, to the environment and now to future generations with ever increasing federal, corporate, and family deficits. 34. Capitalism cannot provide profits to its owner unless it has parallel economic systems to which to obtain resources and to which to transfer its costs. The family, women, minorities, the state, and weaker economies in the Third World absorb much of the costs of capitalism. 35. The power of the state to police is turned from the necessary repression of activity harmful to the human process and the environment to the unnecessary repression of workers, minorities and emancipatory activity. 36. Capitalism begins with an exploitation of labor of workers. It ends with an exploitation of the labor of everybody; workers, managers, professionals, politicians and professors alike. >Maxine Campbell email: maxine@waikato.ac.nz >Sociology Department Phone: 0064-7-8562889, ex 8274 >University of Waikato Home: 0064-7-8547103 >Hamilton Fax: 0064-7-8562158 >New Zealand > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From Howery@asanet.org Thu Mar 26 08:14:07 1998 Received: from enterprise.csi1.com (enterprise.csi1.com [205.136.28.5]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA03375 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:14:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803261514.IAA03375@csf.Colorado.EDU> Received: by enterprise.csi1.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:16:38 -0500 From: Carla Howery To: "'Sociology Graduate Students -- International'" Subject: Passing on Sociology Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:12:53 -0500 In response to a query a while back, I asked the author to explain the title of PASSING ON SOCIOLOGY: WHY IS THE BOOK "PASSING ON SOCIOLOGY" so titled? This is a belated response to February 7-9 postings from Vincent Bruzzese who wondered why anyone would so title a book and Don Naylor's response. Everett K. Wilson and I wrote that book-and here's what I recall about our thinking. Let me say first that I was delighted some folks found in the title some questions-that is very much what we hoped for. The original title Ev and I wanted (it was Ev's idea) was "Professing Sociology." But we abandoned it when found that only a few years before, Irving Louis Horowitz had used that title for a collection of his essays. The title "Professing Sociology" was intended, first, to be descriptive-the book was about the teaching of sociology. But second, we hoped to raise questions-- professing also means laying a claim to something. Thus: when we teach, what do we lay claim to? What is this thing called sociology? And what are its claims? What claims do we as sociologists make for it? And for ourselves as teachers of sociology? What does it means to profess sociology? We hoped to raise such questions in our readers minds. We were also hopeful that "professing sociology" would suggest evaluation. After all,-claiming to do something does not mean it has been done. The eventual title, "Passing on Sociology," was also an intentional pun and in quite similar ways. Again, there is the descriptive meaning-passing on or professing or teaching, etc. But also: like "Professing," "Passing on" suggests evaluation. To pass on, can be to judge. And we hoped to raise questions in readers' minds about the field and its teaching. We also were quite mindful of the generation to generation suggestion in "passing on," the notion of transmission-- of a tradition, of a discipline, of a particular set of questions, approaches and a distinctive subject matter. Choosing titles for books has a serious, consequential side, but also a fun dimension. I recall we had a good time generating title/subtitle ideas such as: " Teaching Sociology: The Greatest Story Ever Told." Charles A. Goldsmid goldsmid@primenet.com Carla B. Howery Deputy Executive Officer American Sociological Association 1722 N Street NW Washington, DC 20036 202-833-3410 x323 FAX 202-785-0146 howery@asanet.org "She who laughs, lasts." From meisel@sobek.Colorado.EDU Thu Mar 26 09:17:07 1998 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA10393 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:17:04 -0700 (MST) Received: (from meisel@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id JAA27562; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:17:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:17:02 -0700 (MST) From: Meisel Joshua To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Feminist Theory In-Reply-To: <199803242111.QAA03890@csu-e.csuohio.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Matthew Hoover wrote: > system does not work - the Chinese have been moving to a market system and > we can see the effect that socialism has had on the people of Cuba. Hmmm...do you suppose that the U.S. embargo of any trade with Cuba since the early 1960s might have anything at all to do with the current widespread shortages of food and energy in Cuba? > > also owned by these "giant corporations" you rally against? The media is so > diversified, and information is constantly coming in. What I was saying is > that the media are not used as a propaganda tool to placate the population > from this massive revolt against capitalism. "Diversified" media? Hah, that is almost an oxymoron...take a look at Ben Bagdikian's "Media Monoploy" (1983) and his follow-up in The Nation magazine sometime last year. Both offer critical accounts of the concentration of media control to a small number of international interests. Josh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua S. Meisel Meisel@Colorado.EDU Graduate Student, Department of Sociology University of Colorado, Boulder Office: (303)492-6269 Fax: (303)492-8878 * WWW Home Page URL http://socsci.colorado.edu/~meisel/Home.html * From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Thu Mar 26 09:43:54 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id JAA11548 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:43:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id LAA21148; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:43:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:43:47 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Passing on Sociology In-Reply-To: <199803261514.IAA03375@csf.Colorado.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "Passing on" means more commonly "No thank you, I think I will move on to something else." Somebody takes a "pass" on a question because they don't like the question or they don't know the answer. They are passing on that question. Somebody takes a "pass" on a particular course of food because it is distasteful. "Would you like to study sociology?" "No, I am passing on sociology." That's a dreadful title for a book about teaching the subject. Hopefully a later edition could be retitled. I actually think that a title like that will greatly inhibit interest and sales of the book. Andy From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Mar 26 09:59:01 1998 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id JAA12306 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:58:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id LAA00033; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:57:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:57:33 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Passing on Sociology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Andrew Wayne Austin wrote: > > "Passing on" means more commonly "No thank you, I think I will move on to > something else." Somebody takes a "pass" on a question because they don't > like the question or they don't know the answer. They are passing on > that question. Somebody takes a "pass" on a particular course of food > because it is distasteful. "Would you like to study sociology?" "No, I am > passing on sociology." That's a dreadful title for a book about teaching > the subject. Hopefully a later edition could be retitled. I actually think > that a title like that will greatly inhibit interest and sales of the > book. > > Andy > Well Andy, back in the old, old days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a young lad with hair (on my head), the phrase commonly to "to give." English usage changes. Deal with it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Thu Mar 26 12:12:40 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id MAA20874 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:12:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id OAA01878; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:12:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Passing on Sociology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, James Cassell wrote: > English usage changes. Deal with it. Exactly my point. Given that English usage changes, it would have been more appropriate to title the book something else, rather than relying on the meaning of a phrase from "when dinosaurs roamed the earth." In other words, I have dealt with it. The problem is that others did not. Andy From cassell@frosty.irss.unc.edu Thu Mar 26 12:31:50 1998 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA21408 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:31:48 -0700 (MST) Received: (from cassell@localhost) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA07651; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:30:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:30:24 -0500 (EST) From: James Cassell To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Passing on Sociology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Andrew Wayne Austin wrote: > On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, James Cassell wrote: > > > English usage changes. Deal with it. > > Exactly my point. Given that English usage changes, it would have been > more appropriate to title the book something else, rather than relying on > the meaning of a phrase from "when dinosaurs roamed the earth." In > other words, I have dealt with it. The problem is that others did not. > > Andy > You do know that _Passing on Sociology_ was published almost 20 years ago, don't you? James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Thu Mar 26 13:36:02 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA24518 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:35:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id PAA23870; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:35:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:35:58 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Passing on Sociology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII James, I am thirty-six years old. And as long as I can remember one possible meaning of the phrase "passing on [fill in the blank]" meant that whatever it is it is not desirable. I understand that passing on knowledge, etc., means to share with the next generation. But since sociology has become such a whipping boy for right wing intellectuals and politicians, and this was as much the case in 1978 as in 1998, it would have been more thoughtful to not give the demagogues a pun to rib us with. Andy On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, James Cassell wrote: > On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Andrew Wayne Austin wrote: > > > On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, James Cassell wrote: > > > > > English usage changes. Deal with it. > > > > Exactly my point. Given that English usage changes, it would have been > > more appropriate to title the book something else, rather than relying on > > the meaning of a phrase from "when dinosaurs roamed the earth." In > > other words, I have dealt with it. The problem is that others did not. > > > > Andy > > > > You do know that _Passing on Sociology_ was published almost 20 years > ago, don't you? > > James > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cassell cassell@irss.unc.edu > Institute for Research in Social Science http://www.irss.unc.edu/cassell/ > University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Phone: 919/962-0782 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > From bjohnson@sobek.Colorado.EDU Thu Mar 26 13:45:18 1998 Received: from sobek.Colorado.EDU (sobek.Colorado.EDU [128.138.151.62]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id NAA24978 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:45:16 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bjohnson@localhost) by sobek.Colorado.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.7/UnixOps/Hesiod/(SDM)) id NAA03080; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:45:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:45:15 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Johnson To: sociology grad students , teachsoc@sobek.Colorado.EDU Subject: sociology of technology Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone have any suggestions for important works in the sociology of technology? Thanks in advance, brett johnson univ. of colorado From sharons1@airmail.net Thu Mar 26 14:08:22 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id OAA26645 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:08:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.56.179] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Thu, 26 Mar 98 15:08:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <351AD86A.178F@airmail.net> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:36:26 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: Passing on Sociology References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just goes to show that we all perceive things differently and sometimes people use words or phrases assured that what they are saying is clear while the person they are communicating with hears something else entirely. When I heard the title _Passing On Sociology_ I immediately thought of handing something of value to someone else or of passing down family traditions from one generation to the next. So of course I thought "what a great title." Even with the other interpretation of "not choosing or not accepting" I still think it's a great title. Ambiguity can be very effective for generating thought. Sharon Andrew Wayne Austin wrote: > > "Passing on" means more commonly "No thank you, I think I will move on to > something else." Somebody takes a "pass" on a question because they don't > like the question or they don't know the answer. They are passing on > that question. Somebody takes a "pass" on a particular course of food > because it is distasteful. "Would you like to study sociology?" "No, I am > passing on sociology." That's a dreadful title for a book about teaching > the subject. Hopefully a later edition could be retitled. I actually think > that a title like that will greatly inhibit interest and sales of the > book. > > Andy From Nogod1@aol.com Thu Mar 26 22:38:46 1998 Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA29131 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:38:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from Nogod1@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GHVEa11408 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:38:28 -0500 (EST) From: Nogod1 Message-ID: <51f32cdc.351b3b56@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:38:28 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Passing on, Passing on Sociology Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can I suggest we 'pass on' this topic? Obviously the title of the book can have two meanings. In the end, it doesn't really matter....in fact I found the title of the book humorous. The important question here is: Who was responsible for the cheap and disorganized reception dinner at the Eastern Sociological Convention? And another thing.......why does it seem to me that certain schools....(who also happen to be Ivy League) throw together these horrible presentations at the last minute? They sit on a panel as a group and spew crap for about an hour.........why?????? They are taking up the time I could be using to spew crap myself...... Writhing in the wonderous pleasure that is sociology, Vincent Bruzzese SUNY Stony Brook From klmckinney@juno.com Fri Mar 27 08:48:50 1998 Received: from m4.boston.juno.com (m4.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.198]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA19126 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:48:47 -0700 (MST) From: klmckinney@juno.com Received: (from klmckinney@juno.com) by m4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KtE11319; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:47:50 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Cc: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:39:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Passing on, Passing on Sociology Message-ID: <19980327.104838.13070.1.klmckinney@juno.com> References: <51f32cdc.351b3b56@aol.com> X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-14 Vincent, Are you trying to put forth the proposition that the greater the prestige of the presentors, the less effort needs to be made to put out a quality product? Thinking sociologically, what can be done to effectively sanction those guilty of the offenses you just mentioned? A comment on the Socgrad list probably won't do it. Cordially, Karen L.McKinney A.B.D. University of Minnesota _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From Nogod1@aol.com Fri Mar 27 15:52:36 1998 Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id PAA11097 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:52:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from Nogod1@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GMNAa06710 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:52:25 -0500 (EST) From: Nogod1 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:52:25 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Passing on, Passing on Sociology Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-03-27 10:55:54 EST, you write: > Are you trying to put forth the proposition that the greater the prestige > of the presentors, the less effort needs to be made to put out a quality > product? Thinking sociologically, what can be done to effectively > sanction those guilty of the offenses you just mentioned? A comment on > the Socgrad list probably won't do it. Karen, Obviously, the best case scenario would be to challenge the work they are putting forth. However, I have found them amazingly adept at sidestepping any question that is not already preloaded. Sociologically speaking, I am not sure what the answer is to this unfortunate phenomenon that occurs in all fields, I am sure. I could perhaps bring rotten fruit to the next convention and simply begin to systematically peg each presenter.....do you think that would work? Frustratingly yours, Vinny From BLawre1895@aol.com Fri Mar 27 22:53:21 1998 Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA29174 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:53:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from BLawre1895@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id GCTVa19599 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:53:09 -0500 (EST) From: BLawre1895 Message-ID: <41eb712a.351c9048@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:53:09 EST To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Ethnomethodology Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am confused about what exactly is ethnomethodlogy, is it a theory or method? I read somewhere it is how ordinary people discover, create or construct, sustain, and alter their sense of an external social reality consciously or unconsciously. However, this definition is not clear to me. One person told me that it was conversation analysis is that true? Is it similar to interactionist? Sharon From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 28 00:13:22 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id AAA04639 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:13:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id CAA24445; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:13:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:13:19 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Ethnomethodology In-Reply-To: <41eb712a.351c9048@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sharon, A part of ethnomethodology has involved conversation analysis. But not only human symbolic conversations. I remember some fellow analyzing jazz. Can't remember his name. I think he also did something about dying? It brings in semiotics (conversation of gestures, etc.). Interesting stuff. It is interactionistic. It seems to me that it derives its primary epistemological (can we also speak of the ontological in the subjectivist genre?) elements from phenomenology, particularly the more sociological versions about how meaning is constructed in everyday life and so forth. It is also sorta functionalist in the Durkheimian-Goffmanian sense. The interesting feature of social reality that ethnomethodology brings out is how fragile reality is, how easily interaction breaks down if somebody deviates from the script. Ethnomethodology is a functional analysis of the microstructures that prop up reality. Tacit knowledge. Etc. It is also at times very pretentious. Despite its esoteric trappings, it was an important perspective in the pop sociology mood coming out of the 1960s. Some people give it a lot of weight. Others don't. The main criticism is that it ignored social structure (although ethnomethodologists, if any still around, would dispute this). Give me good old Meadian pragmatism any day of the week. As to the question of whether it be theory or method. An ethnomethodologist would tell you it is both. I have heard it put more like it is a perspective, a philosophical position. Anyway, that's my two cents worth. Andy On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, BLawre1895 wrote: > I am confused about what exactly is ethnomethodlogy, is it a theory or method? > I read somewhere it is how ordinary people discover, create or construct, > sustain, and alter their sense of an external social reality consciously or > unconsciously. However, this definition is not clear to me. One person told > me that it was conversation analysis is that true? Is it similar to > interactionist? > > Sharon > From conroyt@bu.edu Sat Mar 28 10:04:37 1998 Received: from acs1.bu.edu (ACS1.BU.EDU [128.197.152.10]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id KAA11213 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:04:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (conroyt@localhost) by acs1.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with SMTP id MAA71974; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:04:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:04:34 -0500 (EST) From: thomas conroy To: BLawre1895 cc: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Ethnomethodology In-Reply-To: <41eb712a.351c9048@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ethnomethodology studies a number of things, including the following: 1. Ordinary human practices - whether this be ordinary talk (glossed as "conversation"), figuring out the rules of play (picture playing a particular board game for the very first time, wherein you draw upon a variety of resources, including prior experiences of similar type games), giving and recieving instruction, assembling knowledge from data sources, making claims about "types" of persons or actions, arguing, joking, story telling, creating interactional participation structures, reading/understanding organizational records, AND, a whole variety of "common sense reasoning" practices, etc. 2. The indexicality and reflexivity of social order; ie., action is meaningful in context, but the particularities of the context, and thus is a significant way, the context itself are/is emergent; ethnomethodology studies this and tries to demonstrate this. Garfinkel's "breaching experiments," which are well known, was one such demonstration, but there are others - discussed in full detail by W. Sharrock and G. Button's article "The Social Actor" in G. Button (ed.) ETHNOMETHODOLOGY AND THE HUMAN SCIENCES. 1991, Cambridge University Press and earlier in H. Garfinkel and H. Sacks' "On Formal Structures of Practical Action," in E. Tiryakian (ed.) THEORETICAL SOCIOLOGY, 1970. 3. The sequentiality of order. Conversation analysis has as its most important paper "The Simplest Systematics for the Analysis of Turn-Taking in Conversation" by H. Sacks, E. Schegloff and G. Jefferson, a paper which provides for the rule governedness of sequences of talk. However, the sequentiality of order is an idea endemic to other ethnomethodological areas, particularly studies of work and studies of scientific practices. Believe it or not, there are still ethnomethodologists around. Some do conversation analysis, but not all do. It is a diverse sub-field (or perspective, if you like). It has, in the past, been badly caricatured by those who have not really understood it, or who have only read secondary sources or even worse, listened only to caricatured versions (sort of like what many do with such perspectives as Marxism, feminism, post-modernism, etc). Finally, I think a lot of the confusion over ethnomethodology is that it is seen as an extension of phenomenology and thus as subjectivist; in actuality, it merely draws on phenomenology for topical inspiration and tries to demonstrate the reality of what Husserl called the "intersubjective." It also draws on other sources, particularly Wittgenstein and ordinary language philosophy, bringing out the latent sociology of Wittgenstein's later works. Tom Conroy Boston University (once known as the East Coast center of ethnomethodology) From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 28 10:39:57 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id KAA12338 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:39:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id MAA08664; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:39:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:39:49 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe Reply-To: Andrew Wayne Austin To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Ethnomethodology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tom, By "subjectivist" - and I may be wrong about characterizing ethnomethodology in this way - I mean that it focuses on the meanings people have for things, such as common sense understanding, and they way meanings organize social reality. It is much more focused on culture in this way. It builds up social reality from these interactions and the intersubjectivity that people bring to interactions and the intersubjectivities that grow out of negotiated reality. To my understanding this is more than borrowing the trappings of phenomenology. A few other comments. I have examined post-modernism rather closely, and I must say that the caricatures of post-modernism are quite accurate. Post-modernism, like Rush Limbaugh, is its own caricature (and like Limbaugh's rugged individualism - whatever that means - it is ultimately a conservative philosophy). You are certainly correct when you say that feminism (which sort?) and Marxism have been ill-treated in this regard. And I suspect ethnomethodology has been as well. However, I am not disregarding the ethnomethodology in my post (I re-read the post and it sounds like I am, I admit). I think that all the attempts to work out a scientific practice about the idea of social construction are interesting, and ethnomethodology is one of the more interesting attempts. Andy From rb6553a@american.edu Sat Mar 28 16:06:52 1998 Received: from notes-gw.american.edu (notes-gw.american.edu [147.9.238.14]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id QAA27402 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:06:50 -0700 (MST) From: rb6553a@american.edu Received: by notes-gw.american.edu(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 852565D5.007EFA26 ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:06:55 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AMERICANU To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: <852565D5.007E6E21.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:07:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Contingency Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A class I am taking in twentieth century social theory is using the book "Contigency Theory" (1996, University Press) by Gary Itzkowitz. Itzkowitz uses scientific theories of the twentieth century (such as quantum mechanics and chaos theory) to build social theory. I have been unsuccessful in finding anyone else who has picked up on Itkzkowtitz's thread. Is anyone aware of references to "contingency theory" in the literature (I am aware of a "contingency theory" formulated some thirty years ago regarding organization, but this is not THAT contingency theory). I'd appreciate your input. P.S. By the way, to follow up on our rural/urban gay life thread of some weeks ago, I spotted a notice for a new book called "Fram Boys: Lives of Gay Men from the Rural Midwest" by Will Fellows. Robert A. Brooks Doctoral Student The American University From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sat Mar 28 16:16:20 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id QAA27972 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:16:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from larry by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id SAA13591; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:16:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:16:17 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@larry To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Contingency Theory In-Reply-To: <852565D5.007E6E21.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert, TR Young, who is on this list, has done a good bit of work in this area. That is, interrogating the linkages between chaos theory and social theory. I read a few papers by him on the subject long ago and as I recall they were very interesting. Andy On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 rb6553a@AMERICAN.EDU wrote: > A class I am taking in twentieth century social theory is using the book > "Contigency Theory" (1996, University Press) by Gary Itzkowitz. Itzkowitz > uses scientific theories of the twentieth century (such as quantum > mechanics and chaos theory) to build social theory. > I have been unsuccessful in finding anyone else who has picked up on > Itkzkowtitz's thread. Is anyone aware of references to "contingency theory" > in the literature (I am aware of a "contingency theory" formulated some > thirty years ago regarding organization, but this is not THAT contingency > theory). I'd appreciate your input. > > P.S. By the way, to follow up on our rural/urban gay life thread of some > weeks ago, I spotted a notice for a new book called "Fram Boys: Lives of > Gay Men from the Rural Midwest" by Will Fellows. > > Robert A. Brooks > Doctoral Student > The American University > > > From tr@tryoung.com Sun Mar 29 05:09:49 1998 Received: from mail.sensible-net.com ([208.18.224.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id FAA18340 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 05:09:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.24]) by mail.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA89 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:12:22 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980329070636.008293c0@tryoung.com> X-Sender: tr@tryoung.com Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:06:36 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Contingency Theory In-Reply-To: <852565D5.007E6E21.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" RB: there is a set of articles on chaos theory and non-linear social dynamics at: http://www.tryoung.com/chaos/chaos.htm and there are about 200 people in psychology doing a lot of such work...they are at the chaospsych network: I don't have that address handy. Then too, Patti Hamilton and her students are doing foundational work in chaos and social dynamics at Texas Woman's University; Her address is: all good luck in your work, TR At 06:07 PM 3/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >A class I am taking in twentieth century social theory is using the book >"Contigency Theory" (1996, University Press) by Gary Itzkowitz. Itzkowitz >uses scientific theories of the twentieth century (such as quantum >mechanics and chaos theory) to build social theory. >I have been unsuccessful in finding anyone else who has picked up on >Itkzkowtitz's thread. Is anyone aware of references to "contingency theory" >in the literature (I am aware of a "contingency theory" formulated some >thirty years ago regarding organization, but this is not THAT contingency >theory). I'd appreciate your input. > >P.S. By the way, to follow up on our rural/urban gay life thread of some >weeks ago, I spotted a notice for a new book called "Fram Boys: Lives of >Gay Men from the Rural Midwest" by Will Fellows. > >Robert A. Brooks >Doctoral Student >The American University > > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From tr@tryoung.com Sun Mar 29 07:48:21 1998 Received: from mail.sensible-net.com ([208.18.224.13]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA21521 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:48:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from T.R.Young.power-net.net ([208.18.226.24]) by mail.sensible-net.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36294U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA164 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:50:47 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980329094459.00825af0@tryoung.com> X-Sender: tr@tryoung.com Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:44:59 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: tr@tryoung.com (T R Young) Subject: Re: Ethnomethodology In-Reply-To: References: <41eb712a.351c9048@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom: Your explanation of ethnomethodology was much better than mine; so I changed the Red Feather Dictionary to use yours; you are credited in that passage...if you want to look at it and ever revise it, it is at: http://www.tryoung.com/dict3rd.htm best, TR At 12:04 PM 3/28/98 -0500, you wrote: > > Ethnomethodology studies a number of things, including the following: > >1. Ordinary human practices - whether this be ordinary talk (glossed as >"conversation"), figuring out the rules of play (picture playing a >particular board game for the very first time, wherein you draw upon a >variety of resources, including prior experiences of similar type games), >giving and recieving instruction, assembling knowledge from data sources, >making claims about "types" of persons or actions, arguing, joking, story >telling, creating interactional participation structures, >reading/understanding organizational records, AND, a whole variety of >"common sense reasoning" practices, etc. > >2. The indexicality and reflexivity of social order; ie., action is >meaningful in context, but the particularities of the context, and thus is >a significant way, the context itself are/is emergent; ethnomethodology >studies this and tries to demonstrate this. Garfinkel's "breaching >experiments," which are well known, was one such demonstration, but there >are others - discussed in full detail by W. Sharrock and G. Button's >article "The Social Actor" in G. Button (ed.) ETHNOMETHODOLOGY AND THE >HUMAN SCIENCES. 1991, Cambridge University Press and earlier in H. >Garfinkel and H. Sacks' "On Formal Structures of Practical Action," in >E. Tiryakian (ed.) THEORETICAL SOCIOLOGY, 1970. > >3. The sequentiality of order. Conversation analysis has as its most >important paper "The Simplest Systematics for the Analysis of Turn-Taking >in Conversation" by H. Sacks, E. Schegloff and G. Jefferson, a paper which >provides for the rule governedness of sequences of talk. However, the >sequentiality of order is an idea endemic to other ethnomethodological >areas, particularly studies of work and studies of scientific practices. > > Believe it or not, there are still ethnomethodologists around. Some do >conversation analysis, but not all do. It is a diverse sub-field (or >perspective, if you like). It has, in the past, been badly caricatured by >those who have not really understood it, or who have only read secondary >sources or even worse, listened only to caricatured versions (sort of >like what many do with such perspectives as Marxism, feminism, >post-modernism, etc). > > Finally, I think a lot of the confusion over ethnomethodology is that it >is seen as an extension of phenomenology and thus as subjectivist; in >actuality, it merely draws on phenomenology for topical inspiration and >tries to demonstrate the reality of what Husserl called the >"intersubjective." It also draws on other sources, particularly >Wittgenstein and ordinary language philosophy, bringing out the latent >sociology of Wittgenstein's later works. > >Tom Conroy >Boston University (once known as the East Coast center of >ethnomethodology) > > TR Young, 8085 Essex Weidman, Mi., 48893 Email: tr@tryoung.com From sjc@mole.uvm.edu Sun Mar 29 09:37:33 1998 Received: from mole.uvm.edu (mole.uvm.edu [132.198.103.240]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id JAA24402 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:37:31 -0700 (MST) Received: by mole.uvm.edu; id AA12061; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:45:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:45:25 -0500 (EST) From: Steve Cavrak To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: Contingency Theory In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980329070636.008293c0@tryoung.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, T R Young wrote: > work...they are at the chaospsych network: There is a chaopsyc listserv at chaopsyc@list.uvm.edu - to subscribe, send email to "listserv@list.uvm.edu" - with the message "subscribe chaopsyc FirstName LastName .. The searchable archives of the listserv are at http://list.uvm.edu/archives/chaopsyc.html Steve From chadk@yourinter.net Sun Mar 29 14:45:04 1998 Received: from zeus.yourinter.net (localhost [151.201.78.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA05631 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from hp-customer ([151.201.78.56]) by zeus.yourinter.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-43256U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA195 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:36:43 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980330004121.00682ef4@yourinter.net> X-Sender: chadk@yourinter.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:41:21 -0800 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: chadk@yourinter.net (Chad Kimmel) Subject: Re: sociology of technology Brett, There is a professor in my department who teaches "Industrial Sociology". I will talk with him and pass on the information I receive. Chad At 01:45 PM 3/26/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Does anyone have any suggestions for important works in the sociology of >technology? > >Thanks in advance, >brett johnson >univ. of colorado > > > ***************************************************** Chad M. Kimmel Graduate Assistant/Data Manager Mid-Atlantic Addiction Training Institute (MAATI) Indiana University of Pennsylvania 102 McElhaney Hall Indiana, Pennsylvania 15705-1087 ckimmel@yourinter.net http://www.yourinter.net/~ckimmel 724-463-7010 **************************************************** From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Mar 29 14:52:03 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA05963 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:51:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id QAA20621; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:51:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:51:52 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: sociology of technology In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980330004121.00682ef4@yourinter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Brett, The Frankfurt School examined the relation between technology and society. Adorno, Benjamin, Horkheimer, and Marcuse all looked the effect of technology on culture in general, and on, for example, popular culture, such as music and art. Their critique was derived in many respects from Weber's arguments on rationalization. Ritzer has also examined the relation between society and technology in his McDonaldization of Society. There's more, but that is enough to start the chain reaction. Andy From khampton@chass.utoronto.ca Sun Mar 29 14:57:24 1998 Received: from chass.utoronto.ca (chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id OAA06294 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:57:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (khampton@localhost) by chass.utoronto.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11485 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:56:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:56:00 -0500 (EST) From: Keith Hampton To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: sociology of technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You may also want to have a look at the work of Prof. Barry Wellman, University of Toronto. You can access his vitae at http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~wellman -Keith On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Andrew Wayne Austin wrote: > Brett, > > The Frankfurt School examined the relation between technology and society. > Adorno, Benjamin, Horkheimer, and Marcuse all looked the effect of > technology on culture in general, and on, for example, popular culture, > such as music and art. Their critique was derived in many respects from > Weber's arguments on rationalization. Ritzer has also examined the > relation between society and technology in his McDonaldization of Society. > > There's more, but that is enough to start the chain reaction. > > Andy > > From sharons1@airmail.net Sun Mar 29 16:20:39 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id QAA07592 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:20:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.52.112] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Sun, 29 Mar 98 17:20:33 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <351EEBE0.70D0@airmail.net> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:48:32 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: social work , ahs , "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" Subject: [Fwd: Arkansas Shootings as Gender Hate Crime] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7358775B39E2" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7358775B39E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following post forwarded from another list provides a look at the dynamics of the Jonesboro shootings that may not have occurred to many. Sharon Snow Texas Woman's University --------------7358775B39E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM from [206.241.13.27] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with esmtp for sender: id ; Sat, 28 Mar 98 21:35:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (206.241.12.19) by VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1b) with SMTP id <4.FF783941@VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM>; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:34:58 -0500 Received: from UMDD.UMD.EDU by UMDD.UMD.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8c) with NJE id 6649 for WMST-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:34:54 -0500 Received: from UMDD.UMD.EDU by UMDD.UMD.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 9405; Sat, 28 Mar 98 22:34:53 EST Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (206.214.98.9,45506) by UMDD.UMD.EDU ; 28 Mar 98 22:34:52 EST Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA15038 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:34:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from wil-de7-09.ix.netcom.com(206.217.136.73) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015027; Sat Mar 28 21:34:29 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <351DC187.14B1@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Schweitzer Subject: Arkansas Shootings as Gender Hate Crime To: WMST-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU I thought this press release might be useful if you are having class discussions about what happened in Arkansas -- Mary Schweitzer Assoc. Prof., Dept. of History, Villanova University (on medical leave since January 1995) (Courtesy of WLO, Women Leaders Online) PRESS RELEASE March 27, 1998 For Immediate Release Contacts for further information: Lore A. Rogers, Legal Advocacy Director (734) 973-0242, ext. 204 Erin House, Legal Advocacy Coordinator (734) 973-0242, ext. 253 Rachelle Smith, Legal Advocate (734) 973-0242, ext. 225 Debbie Levenstein, MSW, ACSW (734) 973-0242, ext. 226 Susan McGee, Executive Director (734) 973-0242, ext. 203 ARKANSAS SCHOOL SHOOTINGS GENDER HATE CRIME, SAY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERTS Staff at a local battered women's shelter are outraged and dismayed about the coverage of the Jonesboro school shooting, saying that it obscured the true nature of the crime --- that of violence against females. "The crime is about men's entitlement to women in relationships. It is about male violence against women and girls. It mirrors the dynamics of hundreds of domestic violence homicides", said Susan McGee, Executive Director of the Domestic Violence Project, Inc./ SAFE House. "I'm gravely concerned that everyone seems to have missed it. Every day, batterers of adult partners threaten to kill their girlfriends and wives if they dare to break up with them or dare to leave them." "Four girls and a female teacher were killed. Nine other girls and another female teacher were injured," Rachelle Smith, pointed out. Ms. Smith, an educator on dating violence, said, " Classmates of the dead and injured heard Mitchell Johnson threatening to kill a girl who had refused to be his girlfriend. He reportedly said 'nobody's going to break up with me,' and told other girls that 'tomorrow you will find out if you live or die.' This is the exact behavior we see daily in men who batter their wives and girlfriends. We are missing the boat if we address the issue only as one of teen violence in general, and fail to address the overarching epidemic of violence against women." Research and statistics on intimate partner and dating violence demonstrate that male violence against women is deeply woven into American culture. For example, a November 1997 Department of Justice study of stalking reported several key findings, among them: (1) 59% of female stalking victims are stalked by a current or former intimate partner, (2) in 80% of these case, the female victims were physically assaulted by their partners, (3) women are twice as likely as men to be stalked by an intimate partner, and (4) 87% of stalkers are men. Other researchers report that men who believe they are entitled to their relationship with their female partners will typically characterize the women's departure as an ultimate betrayal which justifies violent retaliation. (Saunders & Browne, 1990; Dutton, 1988; Bernard et al. 1982). SAFE House's Legal Advocacy Director, Lore Rogers, commented: "The violence in this case was not unpredictable. Mitchell Johnson did not get what he wanted from a girl. Because one of the injured girls had rejected his advances, he vowed to kill her and other girls. His violence was identical to what occurs when adult male batterers use violence in retaliation for their partner's attempts to leave a relationship." Ms. Rogers pointed out that up to 3/4 of domestic assaults reported to law enforcement agencies were inflicted after separation of the couples, according to a 1983 U.S. Department of Justice study. "If we JUST blame a 'violent culture', or we JUST work on banning guns, the Jonesboro school killings will happen again, and again, and again. To prevent future murders of girls, we must understand the dynamics of this murder, and all the murders of women and girls by male intimate partners. This should be a wake-up call to the nation. All of our daughters are in danger." said Susan McGee. SAFE House staff called for: enlistment of men and boys in the fight to end violence against women and girls; prevention programs focusing on gender, relationships and violence in every school in the country; and massive media attention focused on the problems of dating and domestic violence. SAFE House will sponsor a brown bag seminar on how men can prevent domestic violence on Tuesday, April 14th at noon in the Education Center at SAFE House. The Domestic Violence Project, Inc./SAFE House is a non-profit agency in Washtenaw County, Michigan, which provides shelter, counseling, support, and legal advocacy for survivors of domestic violence and their children. Anyone requesting assistance can contact SAFE House 24 hours a day by calling (734) 995-5444. --------------7358775B39E2-- From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Mar 29 18:15:18 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA10309 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:15:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1271; Sun, 29 Mar 98 20:15:25 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1948; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:15:25 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 20:14:49 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Re: Academic opening (fwd) To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980329.201458.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: rb6553a@american.edu Reply-To: TEACHSOC@listserv.lemoyne.edu To: TEACHSOC@poplar.lemoyne.edu Message-ID: <852565D6.005B1833.00@notes-gw.american.edu> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:41:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Academic opening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please consider the following employment opportunity, and feel free to post it other lists as well: American University Department of Sociology. One or possibly two temporary positions for 1998-99 academic year, potentially renewable for one additional year. To teach graduate and undergraduate courses, and to advise BA, MA, and PhD students, in research methods and two of the following: social policy/applied sociology; social stratification; international training and education. Successful candidates will add to the department's mission of education and research applied to issues of social justice in a globalized socio-economic system. In accord with that mission, Amercian University is an affirmative-action employer; women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Send CV, references, and any other evidence of good teaching and research to: Ken Kusterer, Chair, Department of Sociology, American University, Washington, D.C. 20016-8072. Consideration of applications will begin April 1, 1998. From sharons1@airmail.net Sun Mar 29 18:17:32 1998 Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA10490 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:17:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from LOCALNAME from [207.136.57.227] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: id ; Sun, 29 Mar 98 19:17:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <351F0739.1250@airmail.net> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:45:14 -0800 From: Sharon Snow Reply-To: sharons1@airmail.net MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "socgrad@csf.colorado.edu" , postgrad-wo Subject: Judith Butler Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call for help! I'm reading Judith Butler's _Psychic Life of Power_ for a class in feminist theory and am having enormous difficulty understanding her. Is there anyone out there who has read this latest book and would be willing to discuss? Sharon sharons1@airmail.net From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Sun Mar 29 18:24:00 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA10923 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:23:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1337; Sun, 29 Mar 98 20:24:05 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 2044; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:24:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 20:21:55 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: ethnomethodology To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980329.202338.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think the main reason Ethnomethodology has been maligned, as has feminism, post-modernism, and Marxism is, each of these perspectives problematize the picture of the disinterested researcher who can look out at the world, talk to people, or play around with and interpret data as if their structural position doesn't (or won't) matter. From wisner@csd.uwm.edu Sun Mar 29 19:41:33 1998 Received: from batch3.csd.uwm.edu (batch3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.226]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA12499 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:41:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (wisner@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.202]) by batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id UAA12609 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:41:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (wisner@localhost) by alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id UAA08713 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:41:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:41:30 -0600 (CST) From: Sharon Kay Wisner To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: sociology of technology In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980330004121.00682ef4@yourinter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am a grad student At UWM. My chair has done a lot of work in medical technology and she might be helpful in that area. If you are interested I will get you in touch with her. ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ Department of Sociology University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Sharon Wisner Bolton 711 Office Hours:Monday 10:30-11:30 & Monday 1:00-2:00 or by appointment 229-4598 wisner@csd.uwm.edu HomePage: http://www.csd.uwm.edu/~wisner ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ From dwhatley@yorku.ca Sun Mar 29 19:47:05 1998 Received: from sungod.ccs.yorku.ca (sungod.ccs.yorku.ca [130.63.236.104]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id TAA13051 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:47:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from [130.63.190.209] (mulder01.slip.yorku.ca [130.63.190.209]) by sungod.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id VAA09678; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:46:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:54:10 +0000 From: Deborah Whatley Sender: dwhatley@yorku.ca Reply-To: dwhatley@yorku.ca Subject: Haraway: Feminism and Technoscience To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Any thoughts on Haraway's __Modest_Witness@Second_Millennium.FemaleMan_Meets_OncoMouse__? D. Whatley York University, Toronto, Ontario From tombrown@jhu.edu Sun Mar 29 20:23:55 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id UAA13947 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:23:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IV96DS33TUBB1HPO@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:21:58 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id WAA08980 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:23:49 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:23:49 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: ethnomethodology To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803300323.WAA08980@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >I think the main reason Ethnomethodology has been maligned, as has >feminism, post-modernism, and Marxism is, each of these perspectives >problematize the picture of the disinterested researcher who can look >out at the world, talk to people, or play around with and interpret >data as if their structural position doesn't (or won't) matter. Such critique is the worthwhile part of these approaches. The weakness is that these folks rarely move past the critique to offer a viable, practical alternative to normal science that can produce equally useful results. It's hard to come up with an attractive alternative to a method that has a 200+ year track record of success. Also, a problem specific to ethnomethodology and other pomo approaches is that they lack an explanation of social change over the long duree. From aaustin@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Sun Mar 29 21:02:53 1998 Received: from mailhost.cas.utk.edu (MAILHOST.CAS.UTK.EDU [128.169.76.44]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id VAA15295 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:02:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from moe by mailhost.cas.utk.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/mailhost.utk) id XAA14547; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:02:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:02:49 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Wayne Austin X-Sender: aaustin@moe To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: ethnomethodology In-Reply-To: <199803300323.WAA08980@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thomas, You raise an interesting point. Although I disagree with it. I think that standpoint perspective has gone beyond critique. Consider physics. Heisenberg and Einstein made path-breaking discoveries by arguing for standpoint. The strength of their approach was their insistence on the objectivity of standpoints. Uncertainty, indeterminacy, and relativity were borrowed from the developments in alternative philosophy and social science (e.g. anthropology) around that time. The perspectives stood in contrast to the positivism that was beginning to dominate the university (with government and corporate funding). The most striking example of the contrary position in social philosophy is the objective pragmatism-realism of GH Mead. Mead's contribution to our understanding of social evolution is substantial, and ignored except for the minor part of this theory concerning micro-interaction. Mead's theory is drawn from the organic/dialectical/relativist ontology of Fichte, Marx, and Darwin (and Hegel, though apparently Mead's understanding of Hegel was drawn from general secondary texts). They never teach you that in school. The Marxian-Meadian approach is a very real alternative to "tried-and-true" positivist approaches (which have only been in their contemporary form this century - not for "200 years" - the positivism of Comte is not observed by social science). The dialectical approach was the trajectory of social science - until it ran into powerful interests. The standpoint approach has been incorporated in physics, which remains one of the cutting edge modes of scientific inquiry - whereas psychology, standard sociology, and especially political science and economics (marginalist/neoclassicalism) is either very bad science or very good propaganda. Ironically, positivism is often said to parrot the methods of natural science. But this is false. It is the subordinated dialectical alternatives that are kin to natural scientific inquiry. There is a unity of science. It just has never been where hegemonic elites have looked for it... or have not looked for it. Andy From ziggy@princeton.edu Sun Mar 29 22:25:48 1998 Received: from outbound.Princeton.EDU (outbound.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.88]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id WAA21544 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:25:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDENT-NOT-QUERIED@ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (port 1317 [128.112.129.131]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU with ESMTP id <541882-14613>; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:25:16 -0500 Received: from mill.Princeton.EDU (mill.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.14]) by ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07638 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ziggy.remote.princeton.edu (comserv7-dialup88.Princeton.EDU [128.112.71.88]) by mill.Princeton.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA17177 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:25:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980330002401.007dab80@mail.princeton.edu> X-Sender: ziggy@mail.princeton.edu Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:24:01 -0500 To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu From: Sigmund Rivkin-Fish Subject: Re: ethnomethodology In-Reply-To: <199803300323.WAA08980@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:23 PM 3/29/1998 -0500, you wrote: >The weakness >is that these folks rarely move past the critique to offer a viable, >practical alternative to normal science that can produce equally >useful results. It's hard to come up with an attractive alternative >to a method that has a 200+ year track record of success. It depends what you mean by "useful". I find ethnomethodology extremely effective in uncovering the scripts, templates, and "logic of practice" that make up the institutional framework within we move. There are lots of potential pay-offs to this. Some have been explored, but others remain to be taken advantage of. There is even room for ethnomethodology at the level of predictive social science at the micro-level (Although it's not my cup of tea, I could see an integration between RAT and ethnomethodology at the level of the decision-making process). >Also, a problem specific to ethnomethodology and other pomo approaches >is that they lack an explanation of social change over the long duree. Yes. I agree that EM is virtually imp0ossible to implement at the level of social change, especially since there is nothing inherent in the theory that provides a framework for connecting various macro structures with the micro. But lumping EM with pomo? Have you ever read Garfinkel's own work? And especially his late stuff? I see lots of connections to American pragmatism, but not pomo. Could you explain what you mean? One of the limitations of EM as I understand it is exactly its strength as well: the clear criteria for establishing explanation -- as clear and spelled out as they are (providing not just a template for explanation, but also a template for methodological approaches) they are also limiting because of the clearly "codified" method. Ziggy Rivkin-Fish Princeton From ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Mon Mar 30 07:13:32 1998 Received: from ATHENA.RIPON.EDU (acad.ripon.edu [143.109.2.6]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id HAA03415 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:13:30 -0700 (MST) From: ARIFIANTOA@Acad.Ripon.EDU Received: from Acad.Ripon.EDU by Acad.Ripon.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #24275) id <01IV9QYQSSQOAIDP2H@Acad.Ripon.EDU> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:16:53 CST Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:12:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: FWD: School Violence Hysteria To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <01IV9R5DKMMEAIDP2H@Acad.Ripon.EDU> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII SOCGRAD List Members: There's an interesting posting in the PSN listlast week made by Professor Arthur Wilke from Auburn University regarding hysteria surrounding recent school shootings. I would like to share the posting with you. Feel free to comment on it. Sincerely, Alex Alexander R. Arifianto, Ripon College (class of 1999) 600 Campus Drive, Unit # 21, Ripon, WI 54971, USA Phone: 1-920-745-7617 E-mail: arifiantoa@acad.ripon.edu GO RED HAWKS!! SOCIOLOGY AND ECON RULE!! Return-path: Received: from csf.Colorado.EDU by Acad.Ripon.EDU (PMDF V5.1-9 #24275) with ESMTP id <01IV5QLPL39SAIDKSL@Acad.Ripon.EDU>; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:17:54 CST Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id KAA22464; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:13:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from mallard.duc.auburn.edu (mallard2.duc.auburn.edu [131.204.2.23]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id KAA22066 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:04:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from wilke.duc.auburn.edu by mallard.duc.auburn.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA20630; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:04:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:04:40 -0600 From: Arthur Wilke Subject: School Violence Hysteria - I Sender: owner-psn@csf.colorado.edu X-Sender: wilkeas@mallard.duc.auburn.edu To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK X-To: PROGRESSIVE SOCIOLOGISTS NETWORK Reply-to: wilkeas@mail.auburn.edu Message-id: <2.2.16.19980327110646.0d87c5c6@mallard.duc.auburn.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Listprocessor-version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN To put the concerns about school shootings into perspective it is well to compare the victimization rate for youth with reported incidences of violent crime in school. For 1994, youthful violent crime (homicide, rape, robbery, simple and aggravated assault) victims were: for 12-15 year olds: 11,300/100,000 for 16-19 year olds: 12,500/100,000 (Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics) The recent extensive survey of public school (excludes private school students who make up about 10% of the school population of about 50 million), reports a Serious Violent Crime (murder, suicide, rape or sexual battery, physical attack or fight with a weapon or robbery rate of: 103/100,000 (Source: (National Center for Educational Statistics). It would appear that youth are at least 100 times safer in school than going home, hanging out on the streets or what not. This does not justify violence, but instead highlights how the hysterical has become such a common place that "theories" abound regarding the incidental and larger items are quickly ignored. For example, in the study a proxy for economic well-being and the link to criminal victimization by students generally shows a consistent relationship. Percent of students elgible for free or reduced-price school.........Serious Crime lunch..............................................Rate Per 100,000 <10%...............................................26 20-34%............................................58 35-49%............................................59 50-74%............................................68 75% or more....................................81 The focus of criminogenic conditions might be better directed at looking at clear patterns than concerns over some unfortunate murders recently in three schools. Arthur Wilke wilkeas@mail.auburn.edu I. Frequency and Comparable Risks of Murder. If we assume that children are: a) awake 16 hours a day; b) in school for 8 hours a day for 180 days; c) no safer in school than elsewhere, there would be 4.5 killings of students per day. Based on national data: a) If youthful persons were no safer at school than elsewhere, they would be 2.9 times more likely to be murder victims outside of school than in school. b) If there were one killing of a student in school each week, youthful persons would be 84 times more likely to be murdered outside of school than in school. c) If there were one killing of a student in school each month, the young person would be 366 times more likely to be murdered outside of the school house. II. Risks of Murder: School as Unit of Analysis. The nation has 86,221 schools for young persons. a) If the killing rate inside and outside of schools were equal (and single instance), one would expect that 1 out of 106 schools would have a homicide. (In 13 years of school, 1 out of 8 schools would expect to have a student murder.) b) If there were one murder a week in the nation's schools, the chance of a school having a murder would be 1 out of 2,395. (In 13 years of school, 1 out of 184 schools would expect to have a student murder.) c) If there were one killing a month, the chance of a school having a murder would be 1 out of 9,580. (In 13 years of school, 1 out of 736 schools would expect to have a student murder). III. Risk of Murder: Student as Unit of Analysis. How likely is it that a young person going to school will be a murder victim? Of the nation's 55.1 million students: a) If the murder rate inside and outside of school were equal, the chance a child were killed in school would be 1 in 67,860 (1 in 5200 in 13 years). b) If there were one murder a week in the nation's schools, the risk would be 1 in 1,530,556 (1 in 117,740 in 13 years). c) If there were one murder a month in the nation's schools, the risk would be 1 in 6,122,200 (1 in 470,940 in 13 years). IV. Comments. a) Murdering people is wrong. b) However, a cyber real crime industry that produces simulated social dramas while entertaining does little to address the "fear" that appears to be produced by these activities. c) The fear and hysteria that is produced highlights an educational challenge: innumeracy. (*The above data include 19 year olds, many of whom are not in high school and who have a much higher risk of being murder victims. This, however, compensates for not calculating the average daily attendance rates which are about 83 percent). Arthur Wilke wilkeas@mail.auburn.edu From carla.eastis@yale.edu Mon Mar 30 08:18:02 1998 Received: from pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.35]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id IAA07075 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:18:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from mars.its.yale.edu (eastis@mars.its.yale.edu [130.132.143.37]) by pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05181 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (eastis@localhost) by mars.its.yale.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA19546 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:17:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: mars.its.yale.edu: eastis owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:17:46 -0500 (EST) From: Carla M Eastis X-Sender: eastis@mars.its.yale.edu Reply-To: Carla M Eastis To: Sociology Graduate Students -- International Subject: Re: sociology of technology In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980330004121.00682ef4@yourinter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >Does anyone have any suggestions for important works in the sociology of > >technology? I don't know how important it is, but one of the best works for the purposes of introducing big themes I ever read was _War Stars_ by Bruce Franklin. It's a neat piece of history, illustrating that Reagan's SDI plan was by no means the first time politicans and the public had debated the possibilities of "the ultimate weapon"--similar proposals have been floating around for 150 years in the U.S. I read the book in a class called "Science, Technology, and Public Policy" and it really opened my eyes, to look for patterns in the social and political uses of technospeak. Two older and much more theoretical works on the topic are _The Technological Society_ by Jacques Ellul and _Autonomous Technology: Technics-out-of-control as a theme in political thought_ by Langdon Winner. Carla ________________ Carla Eastis Yale University, Dept. of Sociology carla.eastis@yale.edu http://pantheon.yale.edu/~eastis/carla.html From dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Mar 30 09:36:40 1998 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id JAA09943 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:36:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from polldata.irss.unc.edu (polldata.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.8]) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA27725 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:35:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199803301635.LAA27725@frosty.irss.unc.edu> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:35:40 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu (David Sikkink) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: sociology of technology In-Reply-To: ; from "dhsikkin" at Mon Mar 30 11:35:40 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII" Carla, Read with interest your post soc of techn. What are your major areas of study, projects, and where are you at in your program? Dave _____________________________ David Sikkink Dept of Sociology CB 3210, 155 Hamilton Hall University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599 919/962-0514 From dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu Mon Mar 30 09:39:01 1998 Received: from frosty.irss.unc.edu (frosty.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.82]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id JAA10089 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:38:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from polldata.irss.unc.edu (polldata.irss.unc.edu [152.2.32.8]) by frosty.irss.unc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA27741 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:37:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199803301637.LAA27741@frosty.irss.unc.edu> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:38:02 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: dhsikkin@frosty.irss.unc.edu (David Sikkink) To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: sociology of technology In-Reply-To: ; from "dhsikkin" at Mon Mar 30 11:38:02 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII" Oops. That last message was meant to go to Carla's address. Sorry. I want to second her rec. of Ellul's work. Dave _____________________________ David Sikkink Dept of Sociology CB 3210, 155 Hamilton Hall University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599 919/962-0514 From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Mon Mar 30 18:59:35 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id SAA13153 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:59:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2901; Mon, 30 Mar 98 20:59:42 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 9846; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:59:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 20:56:40 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: Ethnomethodology To: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980330.205915.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT And structural approaches, or Symbolic Interactionist approaches to social change have satisfactory explanations for long-term change? I think it is only through problematizing certain perceptions and definitions of what is normal that cultural changes become apparent to Sociologists to begin with. From tombrown@jhu.edu Mon Mar 30 20:24:00 1998 Received: from jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml1.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.86]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with ESMTP id UAA22227 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:23:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix-b.hcf.jhu.edu) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #18666) with SMTP id <01IVAKNULXZQBCAEP0@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:21:45 EDT Received: (from tombrown@localhost) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id WAA24155 for socgrad@csf.colorado.edu; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:23:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:23:37 -0500 From: tombrown@jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) Subject: Re: ethnomethodology To: socgrad@csf.colorado.edu Message-id: <199803310323.WAA24155@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> >>Also, a problem specific to ethnomethodology and other pomo approaches >>is that they lack an explanation of social change over the long duree. > >Yes. I agree that EM is virtually imp0ossible to implement at the level of >social change, especially since there is nothing inherent in the theory >that provides a framework for connecting various macro structures with the >micro. But lumping EM with pomo? Have you ever read Garfinkel's own work? >And especially his late stuff? I see lots of connections to American >pragmatism, but not pomo. Could you explain what you mean? Sorry, I wrote that very badly. I meant to refer to ethnometh and other interactionist approaches, as well as pomo approaches, all lack an explanation of social change, or even much of an historical or comparativist perspective at all. I haven't read any of garfinkel's late stuff. My favorite garfinkel article is a piece from AJS in the mid 1950s on degradation rituals. It's extremely bitter in tone, obviously referring to the McCarthy and HUAC hearings without ever specifically mentioning them. From DAVIDSON@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU Tue Mar 31 12:28:59 1998 Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3]) by csf.Colorado.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4/CNS-4.1p-nh) with SMTP id MAA01887 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:28:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7737; Tue, 31 Mar 98 14:28:50 EST Received: from UConnVM.UConn.Edu (NJE origin DAVIDSON@UCONNVM) by UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 6334; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:28:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 14:26:48 EST From: Alan Davidson Subject: New hires To: grdisu-l@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU cc: socgrad@CSF.COLORADO.EDU Message-Id: <980331.142823.EST.DAVIDSON@UConnVM.UConn.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Here is some data that came my way from the National Center of Education Statistics -- Fall Staff in Postsecondary Institutions, 1995 NATIONAL CENTER FOR EDUCATION STATISTICS Fall Staff in Postsecondary Institutions, 1995 February 1998 Highlights Chapter 1. Overview of Staff in Postsecondary and Higher Education Institutions Staff in All Postsecondary Institutions (8,598 institutions) There were about 2.8 million staff employed in postsecondary institutions in 1995 (table 1-1), about 2.4 percent of the total U.S. nonfarm establishments payroll (figure 1-1). Growth in postsecondary staff was 2.5 percent from 1991 to 1993 and 1.6 percent from 1993 to 1995 (figure 1-2). Overall, three-fourths of staff were employed in 4-year institutions. About 68 percent of staff were employed in public institutions (figure 1-7). In 1995, faculty composed 36 percent of postsecondary staff (figure 1-8). The proportion of staff who were faculty was higher in 2-year institutions than 4-year institutions (figure 1-9). Staff in Institutions of Higher Education (IHE, 3,792 institutions) About 95 percent of the postsecondary staff were employed in institution s of higher education, a subset of all postsecondary institutions (figure 1-3 and table 1-1). >From 1991 to 1995, full-time staff decreased by 1 percent while part-time staff increased by 18 percent (figure 1-3). Part-time employment of staff was higher in 2-year institutions than in 4-year institutions and was higher in public institutions than in private institutions (figure 1-4). Growth in IHE staff kept pace with overall employment growth and exceeded growth in student enrollments from 1991 to 1995 (figure 1-5). The number of full-time-equivalent (FTE) students to FTE staff has been declining since 1976. This decline has been reflected in most professional positions, including faculty (table 1-2). Professional staff grew by 9 percent from 1991 to 1995 (figure 1-10), with the largest increase occurring in faculty positions (figure 1-11). The number of nonprofessional staff decreased by about 3 percent from 1991 to 1995 (figure 1-10). Among professional occupations, part-time staff increased by 20 percent and full-time staff increased by 3 percent from 1991 to 1995 (table 1-3). >From 1991 to 1995, the growth in professional employment for women continued to increase and surpassed job growth for men in all areas, except other professional support/services (table 1-3). >From 1993 to 1995, women gained an additional 7 percent of all faculty positions, reaching 40 percent in 1995 (table 1-3). Minorities were underrepresented in professional occupations and overrepresented in nonprofessional occupations relative to their representation in the total population, labor force, and IHE staff. For example, 31 percent of service maintenance positions and 5 percent of faculty positions were held by blacks; at the same time, blacks composed 11 percent of the U.S. population and labor force and 12 percent of total IHE staff (table 1-4). Executive/administrative/managerial full-time staff and faculty had the highest median earnings of all full-time staff in IHEs in 1995 (table 1-7). Among full-time faculty having 9- to 10-month contracts, whites earned 91 percent as much as Asians and Pacific Islanders, Hispanics earned 87 percent as much, and blacks and American Indians and Alaska Natives earned 83 percent as much (figure 1-14). The 1995 median earnings of full-time faculty in private institutions were 96 percent of those in public institutions (figure 1-16). In 1995, women employed full-time in other professional support/services earned 93 percent as much as men in comparable positions, and women faculty with 9- to 10-month contracts earned 81 percent as much as men faculty (table 1-7). Women full-time faculty earned 89 percent as much as men faculty in 2-year institutions and 79 percent as much in 4-year institutions (figure 1-15). Chapter 2: Faculty Growth, Distribution, Rank, and Tenure in Institutions of Higher Education >From 1991 to 1995, the proportion of faculty employed in 2-year institutions grew from 28 percent to 31 percent (figure 2-1). >From 1991 to 1995, growth in full-time and part-time faculty positions held by women exhibited steady growth, while the growth in faculty positions for men slowed and even declined in full-time positions (figure 2-4). In 1995, women composed larger shares of part-time faculty than full-time faculty in both public and private institutions (figure 2-6). >From 1993 to 1995, all minority groups either experienced an increase in their percentage of full-time faculty positions or retained a constant share of such full-time positions. Asians and Pacific Islanders had the biggest percentage gains, increasing 9 percent (table 2-2). Since the mid-1970s, the percentage of minority full-time faculty has increased but has not kept pace with increases in the percentage of minority undergraduate enrollment (table 2-3). About one-half of full-time faculty were tenured in 1995, about the same percentage as in the mid-1970s. Since the mid-1970s, however, there has been an increase in the percentage of full-time faculty that are not on a tenure track (table 2-4). In 1995, white, full-time faculty were more likely to be tenured than minorities, and men were more likely to be tenured than women (figure 2-7). A smaller percentage of full-time women faculty held the rank of full professor than of full-time men faculty in 1995 (figure 2-8). The majority of blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians and Alaskan Natives employed in institutions of higher education held assistant professor and lecturer/instructor/other faculty positions, while white and Asian and Pacific Islander were more evenly divided between high and low ranked faculty positions (table 2-5). Chapter 3: New Hires in Institutions of Higher Education The number of new full-time hires has been declining since the mid-1970s , reaching 91,876 in 1995 (figure 3-1). The overall distribution of new hires by primary occupation has changed substantially since 1977. The percentage of new hires in executive/ administrative/managerial, faculty, and professional (support/service) positions increased from 1977 to 1995, while technical/paraprofessional, clerical/secretarial, skilled crafts, and service/maintenance new hires declined (figure 3-1). The number of new hires declined by 31 percent from 1977 to 1995 and by 8 percent from 1993 to 1995. From 1993 to 1995, the number of new hires declined for every primary occupation; most notable was the decrease of almost 4,000 new faculty hires (figure 3-2). In 1995, minorities represented a greater proportion of new faculty hires than of existing full-time faculty (figure 3-4). While the proportion of minority newly hired full-time faculty grew in 1995, the overall number of minority newly hired full-time faculty decreased. Looking at individual racial/ethnic groups, however, shows that the number of Asian and Pacific Islander and American Indian and Alaskan Native new hires increased from 1993 to 1995 (table 3-1). New hires in 1995 were less likely than existing full-time faculty to be on a tenure track (5 percent compared with 52 percent; figure 3-5). In 1995, newly hired faculty of both sexes were tenured, on a tenure track but not tenured, and not on a tenure track, not tenured at about the same rates (figure 3-5).